Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2024

Serbia

The participation map is not intirely correct, Kosovo is not a fully independent country, and thus still part of Serbia. Can somebody change it please, (also on the Wikipedia pages of Eurovision 2008 up until now, the one from Eurovision 2007 is correct tho). Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:ECF4:9FA4:9BA4:5304 (talk) 01:20, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo declared its independence in 2008, has since then been recognized as a sovereign state by a large number of states worldwide, and has its own government. You can’t ignore that and say it’s “still part of Serbia”. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:57, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Serbia never signed their Declaration of Independence. That’s also the reason why their status has been questioned internationally, wether it’s a sovereign state or a province of Serbia. Montenegro for example gained full independence a little before them, which means Serbia also recognizes their independence. And NOBODY questions wether it’s a country or not. This stands separate from anyone’s opinion, wether anyone personally believes Kosovo is a country or not. Because these are facts. 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:D552:FF73:654A:2361 (talk) 11:25, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo has participated in Eurovision events before and it's extremely rare for a singer from Kosovo to attempt to represent Serbia, hence colouring them as part of Serbia would be inaccurate to the political situation there, would seem like Kosovo's music scene is the same as Serbia's, and would make it seem like Wikipedia is pro-Serbia when the site should remain neutral in affairs relating to the politics of Serbia/Kosovo on a song contest page. Violatie (talk) 09:10, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

You might wanna re-phrase yourself, the "region" has only participated once in an EBU event, and therefor not in "events". Other than that, the region is filled with Albanians who instead participates in Festivali i Këngës. When the region only has a Serb population of 4%, then no wonder, that they have barely tried to represent Serbia, since there are barely any, and of course, most Serbs are located in Mitrovica. Most noticeable is of course Nevena Bozovic, who is from the region and has represented Serbia twice.

Plus, there's no way this topic can be considered "neutral", by putting it as "a different country" pretty much marks it as anti-Serbia instead.

Other than that, music can have various styles within a country, so despite different styles, that's not really a valid argument to "separate" land.

I might have my own personal view as well, but that doesn't make it correct. However, I can freely share that I personally believe that acknowledging them, and even encouraging the "region" to aim for participation, is the most absurd and foolish mistake, that can be done. Especially considering there are indeed various countries who would be against it, due to internal reasons as well. Real Heydavid17 (talk) 02:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

It would be accurate if you look at the political situation over there. Because Kosovo is a part of Serbia and is also a disputed territory, so not (yet) a sovereign state. Transnistria and Abchazia are also not shown as fully independent countries, but part of their respective countries. The thing is Kosovo functions in practice as a fully independent country, but officially still belongs to Serbia. Also showing them as independent is also a stance. I fully agree with Real Heydavid17 on this. Would other territories which have declared independence in the past (Northern Cyprus, Transnistria, South Ossetia) also be shown separately on this map and start to participate at Eurovision? (Why aren't they shown independently in the first place, just like Kosovo does?) That's too ridiculous, we are already with so many fully independent fully recognized states in the contest. We would also don't really have space for them to also join be honest. This would not make any sense. 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:ECF4:9FA4:9BA4:5304 (talk) 02:50, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

You guys are going off track. Kosovo is much more widely recognized than Transnistria or South Ossetia, and comparing it to them is frankly ridiculous. Also, as pointed out, it has already taken part independently in an EBU event and is actively pushing for membership, as mentioned in this very article – like it or not, Kosovo exists. Anything else relates to your opinion on whether it is a legitimate country or not, which has no place here. Otherwise I might as well start to ask Israel be removed from these maps. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. That´s the reason why Kosovo gained membership in some international organisations that have loose membership citeria´s. But in the end they are both de facto states. Wales also has participated independently in an EBU event, should it also be shown separate from the UK? Yes, Kosovo indeed exists, but not as a fully sovereign state. As mentioned earlier this matter stands completely free from my personal or anybody else's opinion, because this is a fact. Israel actually managed to gain full independence and thus full recognition from the United Kingdom, later followed by the vast majority of countries in the world. unlike Kosovo which never achieved this from Serbia. Israel now has an almost universal recognition of their independence from almost all UN member states + Vatican City. Kosovo only has quitte a lot of international recognitions, but they lack recognition from their seceding state. That is the problem. 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:ECF4:9FA4:9BA4:5304 (talk) 12:39, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Kosovo does exist as a sovereign state, despite Serbia's limited recognition of its status. Wales never declared its independence and is not recognized as a separate sovereign entity. Kosovo is in a unique situation and this cannot be ignored altogether. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 13:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The other side of this is that as things stand Kosovo is unable to participate in ESC. I'd recommend being on the Serbian side of the fence until that situation changes. Krytenia (talk) 20:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Meh. Non-eligible doesn’t mean non-existent. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:27, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

A country can only become fully independent once the state where it secedes from also agrees by signing their declaration of independence. That's also the reason why Kosovo is not a part of the United Nations, while the last balkan countries became members like 15 years ago. This is also the same reason why they aren't part of the EBU. 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:70B8:89BD:B14C:13B1 (talk) 02:31, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

While Kosovo may not be recognised by some, the EBU and EU both recognise that Kosovo exists in some form. However, they don’t recognise states such as South Ossetia, pretty much nobody does, so that would be an unfair argument.

. As Eurovision is non-political, and considering that the EBU has recognised the Kosovan version of Festivali i Këngës, and the RTK broadcast the contest, you can definitely say that they are associated with Eurovision at least.

I apologise if you don’t accept the existence of Kosovo, but most EU and EBU members recognise their independence. I’m not an expert on any of this, most definitely, but I believe I know enough.

As with most maps, a helpful way to resolve this problem would be to mark the Kosovan borders with dotted lines instead, so people know it’s not fully recognised. x Eurov7sion (talk) 07:31, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Cyprus is not recognised by one country also that doesnt mean we should include cyprus in the turkish map man, get a life , kosovo is a sovereign state, if not it would be albanian. Nickodath (talk) 21:23, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

This isn't a simple issue. Kosovo has self-declared as an independent state, and has been recognised by most of the EBU. Especially with it vying to enter the ESC, I think displaying it separately is completely fine. > Asheiou (they/them • talk) 15:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: The map already displays a dotted line as the border, it's just that purple clashes with grey so much that it creates a solid border, and the dotted line is basically impossible to see. There is an arguement to be made that it should be colored light purple, but then there would be many regions in Europe that would have to be colored in the same way as well. The dotted line currently doesn't achieve the intended effect, so it should be either changed to a proper border, or Kosovo should be colored light purple. — IмSтevan ^talk 09:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Exactly - that would be a good compromise. Eurov7sion (talk) 09:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Romania on the map

Any way we could get another colour for Romania on the map? Looks at the moment like they've never participated, which is obviously not correct. Toffeenix (talk) 18:10, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

That would mean implementing a special parameter in the Template:Infobox song contest just for the occasion. I don’t think we really need that considering that the Romanian confirmation of (non-)particpation should come shortly. The note after the number of countries seems enough to me. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

@Toffeenix and IvanScrooge98: Honestly I would support adding an aditional parameter stating "Countries that have participated in the past, but whose participation status is unknown". Especially at the very start of a season, surely the map should note differences between say Moldova which usually confirms quite late, and Algeria which is just not competing nor considering it, it just doesn't make sense to me that they should both be grey (like Romania and let's say Egypt right now). I think this discussion should be moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision — IмSтevan ^talk 18:38, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

You’re right, that would be useful in the months preceding the official EBU announcement. We could open a discussion about it. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I think adding another color is overthinking it. Just make Romania yellow and adjust the key to be Countries that participated in the past but have either not confirmed for 2024 or will not participate in 2024. Something like that. Grk1011 (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

@Grk1011: I've started a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Eurovision#A_new_color_on_the_map — IмSтevan ^talk 14:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Logo

I think it would be more appropriate to update the logo to the official one. 185.251.84.42 (talk) 17:21, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Which one would that be, or which one are you thinking about? Currently, they have released the slogan and the theme art, so the official logo still, would be the standard ESC logo with host city and year below and the flag of the host country in the heart. Real Heydavid17 (talk) 03:06, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

UK should be green on the map

UK artist is revealed. UK should be green on the map. Digitz123 (talk) 09:29, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

This does not depend on Wikipedia editors. You should always ask this kind of things to those who edit the file on Commons. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:12, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Israel

Surely the various statements by broadcasters regarding Israel's participation, as well as statements from Olly and the Israeli embassy in the UK should be included in the participating countries section or controversies — IмSтevan ^talk 14:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I'd worry a bit about WP:RECENTISM. If you look back at previous contests, some of the very impactful controversies and issues only have a summary tone. If this were included on the main page at this point, it should be somewhat succinct, i.e. "Numerous participating nations including X, Y, and Z, called for A, B, and C to occur". Grk1011 (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I feel like this is important enough to be included. If we have a page about a contest, controversies surrounding it should be included. Take the 2022 contest controversies section for example, this is much more important and impactful than Andrea tossing a flag — IмSтevan ^talk 16:38, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I suppose one distinction to be drawn with that comparison is that the North Macedonia incident in 2022 happened at the contest itself, rather than the current controversy which is in prelude to the contest and only specifically impacts one participating country. I do think there is a case to be made for including some information here, however as Grk1011 rightly points out, WP:RECENTISM is one thing we should consider when adding anything to this article. This is still an ongoing situation, and I believe that the bulk of information should be hosted within the Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest 2024 article. There is probably a wider question about what "incidents" should be included in these articles anyway, given I think in some cases there is possibly too much information, but that's a separate discussion. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 18:22, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

We have Israel's UK embassy criticizing Olly, so should that be in the UK's page? We have an indication that Finland might withdraw, should that be on Finland's page? I would understand your point if it was all only affecting a single country, not a variety of them. Eurovision Song Contest 2022#Exclusion of Russia would be my go-to example — IмSтevan ^talk 23:01, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Might is sort of the problem. We can wait until an action takes place. There's no rush. Wikipedia isn't designed to be the place to go for news. It's role is to record what has already taken place. Grk1011 (talk) 23:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)