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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Palestine-Israel articles 5 (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 21 Dec 2024 11 Jan 2025
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)

No cases have recently been closed (view all closed cases).

Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Crouch, Swale ban appeal none none 11 December 2024
Motion name Date posted
Arbitrator workflow motions 1 December 2024

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/How-to

Current requests

Geoeg

Initiated by Dicklyon at 05:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Diff of dicklyon's notification of Geoeg.

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Documented at user conduct RFC: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Geoeg. Geoeg has rejected a request to engage in mediation (also documented on the RFC page). Content RFC and third opinion have also been attempted. Also wikiquette and ANI and COI reports, all documented in the RFC, which he has ignored.

Statement by dicklyon

Geoeg showed up on Oct. 2 and created the bio Petr Vaníček and the technical article Vaníček analysis (since moved by me to Least-squares spectral analysis). These articles were full of POV comments designed to assign more credit to Vaníček than neutral secondary sources support, as was apparent from statements such as "the Vaníček method has been mistakenly called by some the Lomb-Scargle or simply the Lomb method, as well." (my emphasis) in the early version. It soon became apparent that his interests, wording, location, expertise, style, and other interests were the same as those of Mensur Omerbashich, whose thesis and papers were the sources for most of the article contents. His conflict of interest, including sockpuppetry to try to hide it, is documented at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_18#User_Geoeg; he denies that he is Mensur Omerbashich, but if he's not then he is at least another geodesy expert in Bosnia who likes to praise Vanicek and blog about Bosnian political and historical issues; that makes him too close to be objective.

The main problem, however, is that he is abusive in his talk comments, avoids discussing actual content issues, favoring personal attacks, and continues to push Vaníček-centric wording and concepts straight out of Omerbashich's thesis, contrary to the bulk of independent sources.

On the bio, he has not accepted the need for citations to independent reliable secondary sources, and repeatedly removes the notability tag. He continues to edit the article and remove the COI2 tag placed by another editor who showed up in response to my 3O request.

We've been edit warring too much, and have had a few 3RR blocks (me 2, him 3). I've been frustrated that none of the other DR steps have brought any useful attention to the problem, hence this RFAr.

Geoeg has declined to respond to the complaint signed by 8 editors at Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard/Archive_18#User_Geoeg, and continues to defend biased content supported by references to his own work.

I have no prior knowledge of any of the individual editors, subject persons, or reference authors involved, nor of the specific technical topic; I just happened on this mess as Geoeg was linking his work into technical articles that I watch.

Statement by Geoeg

Statement by Sam Blacketer

Geoeg has at the time of writing been blocked four times for three revert rule violations, and yet shows no improvement in his editing behaviour. The conflict of interest issues raised may have merit and should be addressed. However, Geoeg's refusal to accept that his editing causes a problem and needs to be addressed is the greatest issue here.

My view is that unless Geoeg improves significantly his editing behaviour and begins to work constructively with other editors, his time on Wikipedia will have to be brought to an end by administrative action. I do not think it necessarily needs the Arbitration Committee to make that finding. Sam Blacketer 10:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Spartaz

I agree with Sam. Geoeg is being closely watched. His next edit war or personal attack with be his last. I see no reason to delay matters for an arbitration case as they can be dealt with by ordinary administrative action and/or community input at ANI. Spartaz Humbug! 21:11, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Anynobody

I'd honestly think his complete lack of recognition in regard to dispute resolution by at best ignoring and at worst insulting editor's attempts at it would demand arbitrator intervention. I don't mean to sound melodramatic but this appears to be a worst case scenario, all else failed. Anynobody 08:24, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0)

Kmweber

Initiated by Mercury at 19:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Current discussion on WP:AN

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Kmweber

[1]

[2]

[3]

Talk and archives

Statement by Mercury

I'll be brief in this summary. In the event this case is accepted I'll introduce evidence and comments at the appropriate places. This editor has commented to Requests for adminship, time and time again, with the same comment. "I view self-noms as prima facie evidence of power hunger. The opinion is unhelpful and contains a bad faith assumption. That in itself is not an issue. The issue is that this editing style has been discussed many times, and linked below. The editor insists on a consensus the he should stop, before he stops. However, the fact that we are having these discussions in a perennial frequency is causing disruption. Making these comments after so many discussions about them, appears to be trolling, tendentious. The editor has been blocked for disruptions recently, and unblocked. I will not reblock, or file yet another RFC, for more discussion. I request the committee to look into the behavior here. Mercury 19:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved AnonEMouse

Strongly advise this be withdrawn. Fast. If this case is accepted, I suspect it will not end the way Mercury thinks it will. Indefinitely blocking a user for opposing RfAs, when the ongoing Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Kmweber has overwhelming commentary that criticise Kmweber, but strongly emphasize that "Kmweber cannot and should not be blocked for his opinions" ... I would not like to lose an administrator for this. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 22:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by tangentially involved Neil

Agree with AnonEMouse. An indefinite block was appallingly poor judgement, particularly given the outcome of the RFC. Neil ☎ 00:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by kinda involved Amarkov

The issue is indeed being brought up perenially. But if there is never a consensus to do anything, why is that a problem? We can't start blocking people because others like to complain a lot. -Amarkov moo! 23:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by semi-involved Mr.Z-man

I simply cannot believe the outcome of that RFC. How the community would be willing to tolerate such bad faith assumption is beyond me. The RFA nomination procedure explicitly allows self-nomination. It even puts it before nominating other people; one could make the argument that it implicitly encourages it. Kmweber is opposing people's RFAs with the same reason, apparently without even looking at their contributions. "But he's only expressing his opinion" - but his opinion is almost completely unrelated to the discussion at hand. How is opposing based on something explicitly allowed helpful? My opinion is that we have too many of some types of articles; I'm not going to nominate things for deletion with that reasoning though - that would be disruptive as AFD comments are supposed to be based in policy. And then there's the assumption of faith; I'm completely bewildered how people don't see calling a user power-hungry (I thought admins were janitors) based on the user doing something explicitly allowed without reviewing their editing history is not an assumption of bad faith. If you want to get the rules changed to disallow self noms, the venue for that is WT:RFA. Going on the RFAs of every self nom to give the same opposition reason in some attempt to change the rules is a blatant violation of WP:POINT. The fact that this dispute got this far, when it should have stopped with some warnings to Assume Good Faith is just absolutely ridiculous. (Sorry if this came off a little rant-like) Mr.Z-man 00:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Heimstern

It seems few dispute that Kurt Weber's actions are annoying; however, the discussion at the admin noticeboard suggests some widespread disagreement among admins and others concerning whether or not Kurt's actions were disruptive. I think this could boil down to the question of where to draw the line between disruption and mere annoyance. (Edit summaries like this one as well as comments like this one tip the scales marginally toward disruption, at least in my mind.) The committee may wish to consider if it can shed light on the answer to this question in deciding whether or not to take this case, since this seems to be a contested issue within the community. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by involved Nick

I think this can be resolved without the need for Arbitration, but I remain slightly disappointed that a user is able to use the consensus from an RfC to make comments which some people find upsetting, others find annoying, and a few find disruptive. We're a collaborative project that relies upon editors all trying to get along, sadly, simply being annoying or upsetting never warrants a block, but it's damaging to the community none the less. There was no consensus to uphold the block, there's no consensus for a topic ban and there's possibly no consensus his comments are still acceptable. I know Arbcom likely wouldn't make any judgements on the actual comments in question, which makes any topic ban or site ban completely unlikely.

Just a quick clarification about the block, I had no intention for it to be a permanent block, had I wished that, I would have gone for some sort of community ban, it was always going to be overturned, I hoped that would be when there was some resolution, such as a pledge to cease making those comments, there was no consensus for unblocking solely on that basis alone, and he was unblocked because there was no consensus to do anything otherwise, i.e keep him blocked, something I was completely happy with, as I made clear within a matter of minutes of the block. I knew it would be controversial which is why I started the discussion on the Admin Noticeboard, and why I made it perfectly clear anybody could unblock and I would be fine with that. Nick 10:22, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GRBerry

So long as thoughtcrime is not contrary to policy, there is nothing actionable in civil expression of minority opinion. So long as consensus can change is part of policy, we have to allow alternative and minority opinions to be expressed in the appropriate discussion forums. Accepting this case attacks our policy Wikipedia:Consensus, so it would be worse for Wikipedia to accept this case than for Kurt to consider offering this opinion in RFAs. I urge the committee to realize that rejecting the case is in the best interests of Wikipedia. GRBerry 04:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved User:Citicat

While Kmweber's motivations cannot be known, it does seem clear that his actions have a tendency toward being disruptive (or at least annoying), and that he has no interest in being influenced by any guidelines other than his own. In addition to the RFA issue, KM also comments on many AFDs, usually stating that if something exists, it deserves an article. [4] Again, while I don't know Kmweber's motivations for doing this, I feel the end result is only to antagonize other editors without anything really useful being accomplished. Does any of this require arbcom action? I doubt it. But it would be a real positive if Km could just state his positions on his user page and stop advocating them in these discussions. CitiCat ♫ 05:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Carcharoth

I strongly support GRberry's statement above. I was amazed to see arbitrators considering acceptance of this case. If they do accept it, I would urge them to look at the actions of the blocking admin and those who encouraged/supported him. I would also ask FloNight if she is really proposing a topic ban on voting at RfAs, and to consider the consequences of this. Carcharoth 17:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/2/0/0)

Comic book characters

Initiated by Steve block Talk at 16:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

[5] and [6].

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by Steve block

I seriously think this situation is spiralling into a dangerous path. Of the two editors, User:Asgardian appears to me to have a reluctance to engage in debate and to respect consensus, preferring instead to edit war, as seen in user's block log. The editor has been advised as to the nature of Wikipedia,[7] and their own behaviour, [8], but lately the editor has taken to blanking messages on their talk page, [9], [10] so it is hard to judge how to communicate with the user and what is taken in. I think the situation has now escalated to the point that User:Tenebrae has taken it upon himself to police Asgardian's edits, which is fuelling the edit wars. I appreciate there could be other dispute resolution methods open, but I am not encouraged as to how productive they would be. There has also been evidence of incivility, examples of which can be seen at [11], [12], [13], [14] , [15], [16] and [17]. I think this requires arbitration to sort out how best to proceed, since the situation is now at the stage where it is causing disruption across a number of articles and creating a hostile atmosphere. For me the situation is now reminiscent of that which led to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Dyslexic Agnostic, and intervention is needed to untangle the mess and devise remedies. Steve block Talk 16:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Asgardian has asked us to look at the last few days. As I posted above, this link [18] is from the last few days. There is no sign at all that this hostility is going to cease without outside influence. Personally I would see revert paroles, civility paroles and tendentious editing warnings as possible outcomes. I'd also point out the possible legal threat in an edit made back in July, [19], as well as Asgardian's recent use of edit summaries and the minor edit button, [20], [21], [22], [23] something I've explained a couple of times, see [24], [25], [26] and [27]. I think there is evidence here that consensus decisions are ignored, something else that may need examining. Steve block Talk 21:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Asgardian

The concern is appreciated, but you've jumped the gun again. Look at the last few days. A compromise was reached on Awesome Android, and I'm going to post in Talk I've actually found a nice extra for the article. It gels with Tenebrae's request for a frontal image, so there should be no issue there. He (I assume Tenebrae's a he - if not, apologies) kindly took on board a point I made re: a fact in the Awesome Android article, and I backed him on a decision made on the Vision article. I've also made some suggestons re: the Speed Demon article, although curiously no one has responded so we can settle the finicky points. As for Blood Brothers, that too can be solved (locked for an unusually long time?). I believe Tenebra has acknowledged the need for a Fictional Character Biography, and I am willing to give way on the date-method of writing the Publication History, so long as the style is not too conversational and has the odd break if there's a large amount of information.

I openly admit I've clashed with Tenebrae, but I also respect him as I can see from his Edit History that he does try to keep some of the articles up to a high standard. If we can all maintian civility, then all things are possible. I'd just like some of the other users -such as Wryspy - to remember that I'm one of the few that will actually sit there for a few hours and rewrite articles that badly needed work. No mean feat (see Thanos).

Asgardian 06:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, I would like to respond to JGreb's rather emotive claim that I have lied. This is false, and frankly, inflammatory and probably grounds for legal action on some front if so inclined (I'm not). He and few others need to be careful about what they put down in writing, as such statements are at best careless and at worst slander. I'm getting better with the Edit Summaries, and many compromises have been reached (a la Awesome Android, which now looks sharp).


Asgardian 02:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it seems I must point out the less than objective conduct of another user, this time an administrator. I respect Steve Block but he is not being objective, or fair. His comment that There is no sign at all that this hostility is going to cease without outside influence is a nonsense. A good compromise was reached on the Awesome Android article and I backed Tenebrae on the Vision article. How can this been seen as hostile?

I made the comment Steve linked in response to Tenebrae's comment, which was not constructive. Another poster actually asked why he did not simply fix the issue, which I did. I also find it a tad weak for Steve to be trawling for proof to support his case, when he and Tenebrae actually had an edit war themselves on the article Blood Brothers. Once again, it is a case of "people in glass houses". There are many, many instances of snideness and outright rudeness from several other users, and they too need to improve.

Asgardian 20:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tenebrae also cites an ex-user User:CovenantD. Not a good choice - this is the person that called me an "asshole" and was duly rebuked by another user, who then provided via links examples of CovenantD's poor conduct. It's all there on his Talk Page.

Asgardian 20:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tenebrae

My apology for the late reply; I've been away for a few days specifically because of the agitation created by User:Asgardian, which I'm finding more and more debilitating. I appreciate his positive comments above, yet they fall into a pattern of disruption and conciliation. The last time this happened, I expressed wariness that he would remain non-combative and more willing to accept consensus and not edit-war so often. The conciliation never lasts. Asgardian began fighting with other editors and inflating the value of his own participation from his very first month on Wikipedia, when he began impugning the motives of User:CovenantD here. When his talk-page responses to other editors aren't combative, they're evasive or appear to include deliberately misinterpreted versions of what an editor actually said. I've tried to be supportive of him, going back to this entry on his User Talk page, which he has frequently erased rather than archived, and have been met in response with accusations of being patronizing. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I think arbitration is called for, and I wholeheartedly endorse it.

I would add I don't "police" Asgardian's edits in the sense of going to his User Contributions page and going down a list; I act on his edits the same as anyone's on my watchlist or occasional other articles I run across. Without going to his User Contributions page to check, I'm certain there are articles Asgardian has edited that I've never seen or touched. --Tenebrae 21:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Asgardian's Nov. 3 assertions, I would simply suggest reading multiple editors' statements at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics/Request for comment/Asgardian#Comments.--Tenebrae 04:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by jc37

Placeholder - I would like to wait until the 2 parties comment first. - jc37 02:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, since the goal is to try to stay within a word limit, I'll leave out the links/evidence for now. (And noting that this may likely be a more than a spoonful of beans.)

First, as has been noted by others, User:CovenantD is another "involved" user, and should probably also be a party of this arbitration, but isn't listed since the user seems to be currently inactive (since August).

This has been a long time coming.

I think it's mostly a question of Ownership of articles, poor Wikiquette, lack of honest communication, and how that's all causing genuine disruption.

User:Asgardian has a long history of less than communicativeness in response to his edits. Miscomprehesion, misunderstanding, misdirection, and subterfuge. It's a tactic that's worked rather well for him, actually. If he can continually extend a discussion until he "wears out" those in the discussion, they'll eventually leave, and he'll revert to his preferred version, with seemingly no repercussions. While User:Steve block has tried several ways in order to keep Asgardian a positive member of the Wikipedian community (Probation, article suspension, article protection, blocking, etc.), all that seems to have occurred is that the user has learned that if gives confusing answers, or answers to questions not asked, which confuses those on the page, and just general obfuscation, he can always come back and revert/merge his "preferred" version at a later time, in the hopes that no one is watching. I think it's comparable to Speedy criteria G4 about article recreation. Unless a new consensus is formed, articles should probably not be recreated. Same with Asgardian's edits. Steve attempted to have this discussed on the Community Noticeboard, but was informed by User:Tony Sideaway that Asgardian needed to have a block history. The trouble with that is that the reversions are all in slow motion, so 3RR typically doesn't happen, and there usually is no point for "punitive blocks" after-the-fact. So instead, we've been protecting the pages in question in order to bring the disputers to the table. However (for one example), the moment I unprotected Vision (Marvel comics), with a request to continue discussion, Asgardian immediately reinserted his preferred version.

A rather telling example can be found in the edit history and talk page of Whizzer. In order to deal with that, the concerns were broken up into sections, which were discussed, and then I eventually closed each (when agreed to by both parties, or unopposed). And then Asgardian re-inserted his "preferred version" once again, even contrary to sections which he agreed with.

There are also issues with WP:BITE, in dealing with the "average" editor, or IP editor.

I've said previously that I feel that the user makes some good edits, but having to constantly watch him is simply becoming problematic. Especially due to his lack of (or lack of accuracy in descriptiveness in) edit summaries.

This leads to the other two. Just as Asgardian tends to be pushing his POV, at times, contrary to general MoS, or comics MoS, so two have the other two. It's not a matter of who's "right", it's that the three seemed to constantly be in some state of "war" of opinion over who or what's "right". Despite what Tenebrae said below, I believe he's stepped forward to offer to "police" Asgardian's edits nearly every time that Steve has proposed probation, or something similar. Edit summaries (and lack thereof), and mass reversion/refatoring/editing have just created much confusion.

I think that "something" needs to happen. Temporary measures just don't seem to be effective. These are long term issues, and likely need a long term solution. - jc37 11:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I completely support/agree with Neil's characterisations of the users and the disputes in his (16:14, 4 November 2007) statement below. Though I doubt that 1RR will work, based on the slow motion of things, it's probably a step in the right direction. - jc37 21:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Neil

I've been asked to comment as I have attempted briefly to mediate some of these issues before, and have blocked Asgardian on two occasions for edit warring. As Jc37, though, I will wait for all directly involved parties to comment first before commenting fully. I will say that I believe some sort of arbitration involvement is merited, as both parties' behaviour has not changed through less formal measures, and the situation is getting worse, not better. Neil ☎ 09:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Asgardian is knowledgeable on the topic he edits. He seems to assume, however, that this means he is always more knowledgeable than everyone else, and this overrides any kind of consensus. He is patient, pleasant, and polite, and will wait out any protections without complaining. This politeness and patience is what has allowed him to continue to tendentiously edit over a lengthy period of time without any real action being taken to date. Any revisions to an article he does not agree with are reverted, often under misleading edit summaries marked as minor. The incivility exhibited by Tenebrae is born out of frustration, I believe, rather than any malice. Asgardian will agree to amendments suggested on the talk page, and then revert back to his preferred bersion a day or two later. There is an ownership issue underlying this whole case. All other forms of intervention (including administrative blocks, page protections, and an RFC) have failed to derail his editing patterns. A firm and straightforward set of injunctions - with defined limits (1RR?) to reduce the capacity for edit warring and ignoring of consensus - is required. Neil ☎ 16:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by J Greb

In looking at this, there are problems on both sides:

  • Both have edited using less than helpful edit summaries. Though with Tenebrae this tends to be the exception, not the rule.
  • Both have edited articles where they changed items through out the artile in one go.
  • Asgardian has lied in edit summaries, both marking non-minor edits as minor, and cases like this [28] where he calls a blanket revert of others work a "slight tidy".
  • Asgardian has also blindly reverted to the detriment of article.[29]

There is also a concern about how he phrases comments above an beyond his edit summaries:

  • He has implied that other editors should start with suggesting changes on talk pages instead of actually editing articles.[30] This after his being reminded that blanket reverts should not be made, but that the concerns should be brought to the talk page.
  • His posts also take a possessive tone.[31][32] Both of which would have been benign phrased as "I'll post some suggested reworks here (the talk page) later."

While I applaud Asgardian's willingness to take the time to work on article, and the knowledge of the subjects he brings to it. It's this possessiveness that he cannot seem to shake that is causing problems. Reverting ot remove the work of others that fixed links, grammar and spelling and brought an article into line with guidelines. Continuing to revert articles without discussion until they are either protected or multiple editors have to warn him. And comments from other editors that they avoid working on articles he's touched. Not because the articles are not in need of work, but to avoid the headache of having to fight tooth and nail to improve the article.

- J Greb 01:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ThuranX

I'd like to echo J Greb's concerns, first off. I have also noticed deceptive edit summaries from Asgardian, such as this non-minor edit removing sourced information [33], and have also been frustrated by his intractable determination at times that he's got the 'right version'. He can be engaged on talk pages, but it doesn't often work to ask, or to engage. It takes a lot of effort to get him into a consensus thinking mode. As J Greb notes above, people sometimes avoid Asgardian. I know I do at times. It's a Sisyphean effort sometimes to deal with changes to an article if Asgardian is there. A read through of the Awesome Android page finds about half a dozen editors speaking to Asgardian about his attitude for a period of a year, and he doeesn't seem to have learned from it.

As to Tenebrae, I have seen him discuss some recent frustrations with editors on Wikipedia, and he seems to find the fun being taken out of the project at times. However, he's responsive and cooperative on talk pages, regularly initiates and follows up on talk page conversations, and I have observed him to take the time to aid newer editors in fixing and editing pages. I'm inclined to find that Tenebrae's sarcasm in edit summaries is getting sharper and less 'jovial' as a result of increasing frustrations.

- ThuranX 13:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved AGK

Having looked through the Request for Comment on this matter, it is clear to me that the underlying problem here is an absence of the ability to sit down and Discuss the issues involved in a calm manner. The subsequent edit warring (which has resulted in protections on Blood Brothers (comics) and Galactus) stems directly from this.

Therefore it is my belief that the Committee should look at the issues of user conduct here - unhelpful editing and edit warring, and act appropriately in order to prevent further disruption to the articles in question. However, the content issues of the dispute are, in my opinion, unsuitable for Arbitration at this time: I firmly believe that, if directed in the correct manner and through the correct channels, it would be reasonable to expect a compromise.

Anthøny 15:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Doczilla

The following is a slightly tweaked copy of the things I already discussed with Asgardian and Tenebrae on their talk pages this weekend. I wasn't sure about weighing in with this at all because I wasn't sure what I could say that I haven't already said numerous times, but they both responded well to this and several people have asked me to add my two cents to this discussion.

At a glance, it probably looks like the situation jumped from a handful of reverts and right into arbitration. How could someone not already familiar with the history see what the big deal is? It's hard for anybody who has been involved in these recurring edit wars to be objective, but it has also proven to be hard for anybody who hasn't been involved to see the overall pattern of what's wrong. Things have vastly improved, but it's still a hassle for each of you and for a lot of other folks. Everyone has gotten so frustrated by all the skirmishing that it has kept them away from Wikipedia for periods of time, whether they've stayed away for days or, in at least one editor's case, months. People can have differences of opinion and even heated exchanges over them without escalation to another level, if they agree on ground rules.

I just asked Asgardian and Tenebrae: Realistically, what do you think will have to happen to keep these differences of opinion from leading to more blocks, more admin board notices, etc.? Tenebrae says more people need to step up and comment whereas Asgardian says he needs more civility from others.

Re: People stepping up and commenting. Actually, so many comments have been made at so many times that it would only take one person (or two opposing people for balance) to link to the specific past discussions.

Re: Civility. After 14 months or so of these recurrent edit wars, so often over the same handful of articles, people will tend to chalk their own and others' less than civil remarks up to prolonged frustration, so it just becomes a case of finger pointing as to who's to blame regardless of who made the uncivil remarks.

Asgardian has said people hurt their own cases when they side with someone who can be obnoxious or even quote that person. However, pointing that out can actually make outsiders wonder why so many people would side with somebody who can be that obnoxious instead of backing the person striving to use calmer language. Besides, calm is not always good. We need some emotive language at times. Don't let the language someone else uses blind you to that person's message. Expressing your feelings is at least honest.

Tenebrae, you know you're ready to see the worst sometimes. Whether you're right to feel that way based on the history is a separate issue, but you can hurt your own case when you use more "emotive language" that might make an outsider ready to dismiss you as overemotional. You could blind arbitrators and other administrators to the point behind your message (see above).

Asgardian, after 14 months in which it's been you against a continually growing "anti-Asgardian bandwagon," you're going to have a hard time convincing outsiders that you're right and all those other people are wrong. You've acknowledged that you have ego issues involved in this (and, to be fair, you've said you're working on them).

When I asked you both about what needs to happen, you both talked about what other people need to do and not what you personally can do differently in the future. Plus, the things you mentioned that other people need to do are short-term actions, not long-term goals. Without some real changes in behavior, it really looks like these things will end only if someone gets banned. Now, we're not talking about an anti-Tenebrae bandwagon, so banning Tenebrae won't stop this. You know who that leaves. Please do not think I'm advocating for anyone to get banned, but 14 months of feuding make it hard to imagine that these edit wars will end any other way. Is this really how any of you want to spend your time?

Anyone who wants things to improve needs to talk about their own behavior and what they're going to do differently.

Doczilla 22:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (2/0/0/0)

Indian Rebellion of 1857

Initiated by srs 15:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indian Rebellion of 1857 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Involved Parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

[34] [35] [36] [37]
(Parties notified by uninvolved passerby Nwwaew. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by srs

Earlier (wrongly) placed on Arbitration Enforcement, I am still something of a newbie to Wikipedia AUP enforcement. Re-pasted this request below.

Tendentious editing by multiple editors - User:Bobby Awasthi and User:DemolitionMan who continue to bring a hindu nationalist NPOV into the article. Edits by others are greeted with abuse (DemolitionMan loves to call me a "janitor", because, well, I'm an ISP postmaster), or summarily reverted, with 3RR skated around by tag team editing, or in the case of User:DemolitionMan by creating sockpuppets, for which he was banned for a day and his sock perm-banned some days back.

Mediation has failed - Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2007-10-15 Indian Rebellion of 1857 - a mediator, User:Phoenix-wiki has recused himself and suggested that the case be taken to the arbcomm.

Case accordingly placed before the arbcomm

nb: One of the parties in this request has just been banned for a week - User_talk:DemolitionMan#Blocked_2 - for persistent violation of WP:3RR and history of disruptive editing, including confirmed (checkuser) puppeteering.

srs 15:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Ronnotel, blocking admin

Prior to the filing of this case, I blocked User:DemolitionMan for one week per a request to WP:3RR that is directly related to the subject matter described above. I am willing to unblock if it is determined that User:DemolitionMan's input is required. I, too, have found User:DemolitionMan's behavior to be tendentious, disruptive and overly POV. As per Nwwaew below, I think that an RfC may be a preferred next step rather than ArbCom. So far, the user has shown little interest in responding to an attempt at mediation. Ronnotel 20:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As per User:DemolitionMan's comment below - the reason for the lengthy block is because of his history of tendentious editing, previous blocks, and pattern of disruptive behavior which necessitate administrative action in order to protect the encyclopedia. He has engaged in persistent edit-warring after repeated warnings. He has been confirmed as a sock puppeteer. Yet in this edit, he disingenuously claim to be unaware of WP:3RR policy, even though his sock had earlier created a WP:3RR report. While he agreed to engage in mediation, he immediately reverted to his tendentious behavior when the mediator decided against him. He even admits below to being adamant about enforcing his POV into the article in question. For all of these reasons, and others, I found it necessary to place a block on his account. As I said previously, I'd be willing to unblock so that he can more easily participate in this case. However, I'd like to ask that he agrees to refrain from editing the article in question until this issue is resolved or the 1 week period expires. User:DemolitionMan, you can respond on your talk page if this is acceptable. Of course, you may also contest the block using the procedure described on your talk page. Ronnotel 13:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I doubt this case will be accepted but FWIW I have now extended User:DemolitionMan's block to indefinite due to a blatantly offensive epithet on his talk page against two participants in this case. I am now seeking consensus on this action at WP:AN/I. Ronnotel 19:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Nwwaew

In my opinion, this case needs to go through the Mediation Committee (and maybe a Request for Comment) before Arbitration. It was going through the Mediation Cabal, but the mediator decided to drop out, and choose another mediator, or file an arbitration request. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 19:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by srs

The mediator decided to drop out because at least one of the parties - User:DemolitionMan was actively resisting mediation, as well as leaving comments on the mediator's talk page accusing him of PoV pushing on the article. You can take this one through all the wikipedia admin stages formally but it would be IMO a waste of time and goodwill from all concerned when extremist PoV pushing + childish rudeness is involved, as in the case of User:DemolitionMan.

He actually reminds me of User:HKelkar if that rings a bell .. the two of them are cut from the same cloth in right wing hindu ideology, choices of pages to edit (For example, User:Hkelkar was on Tipu Sultan for quite some time, User:DemolitionMan on Indian Rebellion of 1857 as well as some other pages such as Winston Churchill. Similarly, their tactics (use of socks, wikilawyering etc) are quite similar.

I would respectfully submit that this RFAR be taken forward, as the other previous steps (involving mediation) assume good faith + misunderstanding / communication gaps on both parts, which is noticeably not the case here. srs 01:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DemolitionMan, by email to Nwwaew

Firstly, I shall admit that I've been adamant. However, I don't like being branded an "RSS/BJP Hindu nationalist" all the time. I also take exception to user Josuquis not being banned for 3RR, while I am banned by user Ronnotel. What is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Secondly, coming straight to the point both - Bobby Awasthi and I have provided numerous references to the term "Freedom Fighters" being a legitimate term used by a variety of sources. Look at the link here

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=%22Freedom+Fighters%22+%2B+1857&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

That is the link for the following string in Google - "Freedom Fighters" + 1857

The contention of both Josuquis and Srs is that this does not represent a NPOV. Both Awasthi and I have taken exception to the fact that these two users are definitely not qualified to make a call on the same. I would be pushing a militant Hindu POV if I were insisting that the British be dubbed "evil", "terrorists" or "exploiters". The users also wish to delete from the infobox that certain civilians also took part in the Rebellion. If all combatants are to be listed, why make an exception for the civilians? What's the point of white-washing history? A NPOV should represent a balanced view. How is sticking to a British POV make it NPOV. After it was pointed out to me that the word "Freedom Fighters" should be avoided according to Wikipedia rules, I agreed. I did check other sites on Wars of Independence where the term "Patriots" is used. When this was pointed out, Josquius promptly went ahead and deleted the term "Patriots" from Venezuelan War of Independence.

The article clearly states that whether this was a War of Independence or merely a Mutiny is a matter of perspective and there are enough points which show us that they were both depending on the perspective you look at. Shouldn't the Infobox reflect that?

Lastly, I would like to know from Ronnotel, on what basis does he/she separate set of rules for implementing 3RR? (Posted by Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me)(public computer) 11:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Addendum, in second e-mail

"The infobox is just about facts- a bunch of Indians rebelled against the East India Company and after a lot of people on both sides were killed were eventually beaten". This is the statement by Josuquis and his raison d'etre for not putting a balanced perspective in the infobox. That is my whole point. He has the right to consider them "a bunch of Indians", just as I and a host of other Indians have a right to to consider them "Patriots". Why should the infobox merely reflect "bunch of Indians". If that is not pushing a British POV, what is?

Mentioning "civlians" is pretty important. History shows that they took part in the Rebellion of their own accord. The only reason Josuquis doesn't want it in there is that it strengthens the case for it being a "War of Independence". Josuquis now claims that Indian civilians fought on the British side too. I would like to see some references for that as I most certainly don't believe it.

And the 3RR is a bunch of lies. He has been reported before and Ronnotel chose not to do anything about. It smacks of double standards, nothing else. I breached 3RR on the assumption that just as Ronnotel did nothing to Jos, he would extend the same courtesy to me as well. I guess I was mistaken. Even now I can easily spoof an IP address (would take me less than 10 mins) and religiously engage in an edit war but I don't want to break any more rules. However, irrespective of what Jos says about it - I hope Ronnotel will be able to give me his reasons for what I perceive to be double standards.Posted by Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me)(public computer) 16:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Josquius

To the above:
1: I have not broken the 3RR on that article.
2: The civilians point is a minor one, but I don't believe it needs adding to the article that Indian civilians fought in the rebellion. Civilians are involved/caught up in practically every war; under casualty lists by all means list them but under combatants it isn't the done thing. Also I notice DM forgets that a lot of civilians were caught up against the rebels too.
3: Yes I edited the VWOI article, I am trying to improve the whole of wikipedia not just the one article, it was simply that DM brought that to my attention that I edited it (for the better).
4: British POV is a major issue with regards to dealing with demolition man, anything that doesn't comply with the world view he was taught is apparently 'British POV' (British in this sense meaning a old school tory and not a modern, painfully PC, overly black-washing of history Brit). Our side is not pushing a British POV at all, we're simply trying to remove the extremist Indian POV in favour of a NPOV.
5 (the big one): Yes the war can be interpreted in any number of ways. The infobox however is not the place for this. The infobox is just about facts- a bunch of Indians rebelled against the East India Company and after a lot of people on both sides were killed were eventually beaten. The infobox is no place to mention that the Indians were all traitors who got what was coming to them or that they were valiant martyrs who were fighting for the good of India. Just that they existed.--Josquius 14:41, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (1/1/0/0)

Requests for clarification

Place requests for clarification on matters related to the Arbitration process in this section. Place new requests at the top.

Potential renaming of User:TREYWiki to User:Trey

Given the committee had a role in the unblocking of TREYWiki, I would like to request input from the comittee on User:TREYWiki's usurpation request, which is here. It seems poor form to request renaming such a short time after being unblocked. Does the committee have any comment on this matter? Please note that should the renaming be carried out, the user would be blocked for one second to link their previous block log, as is customary, so that users cannot use the renaming process to evade their old block log. --Deskana (talk) 03:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see no particular problem with the renaming so long as the links to the block log are in place. Kirill 17:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No objection from me, as the original blocking administrator. There's still going to be a such substantial link between both usernames, given their similarity, that it's not likely this rename is being done to try and hide past poor behaviour. I do realise there has been problems in the past with renames and usurpations being requested to try and hide past behaviour and in particular, to try and leave a block log behind without losing contributions, and thankfully the bureaucrats quickly noticed this and introduced the 1 second block with a summary linking to the previous block log. Nick 22:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Great Irish Famine

Remedy 1.1 of the case calls for 3~5 administrators to serve as mentors... However, almost two months since the decision of the case, and no mentors have been chosen for the article. Could we do something about this? - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 23:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who just began editing Great Irish Famine a few days ago and immediately ran into problems that the earlier case was meant to address, I'd like to second Penwhale's call for action. Dppowell 03:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mackensen made a request for volunteers at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement#Great Irish Famine. Problem is finding volunteers 3-5. Maybe we can get the current election candidates to do it? Picaroon (t) 04:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would be somewhat problematic, as the Arbitrators (which some of the candidates will presumably become) have traditionally avoided enforcing case decisions personally. I'd prefer to avoid setting up a situation where we'd need replacement mentors come January. Kirill 00:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've emailed Mackensen offering to be a mentor, I personally think the mentors need to get cracking ASAP - the articles locked now and after scanning through it, there seems to be quite a bit of disruption on the page. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo Wales

Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/My_desysop_of_Zscout370 clearly displays that the community is still at odds over the recent Jimbo Wales drama and when an exhaustive discussion fails to produce a consensus, the issue is usually deferred to the ArbCom. I have not yet decided whether I am prepared to write up the case but the clarification from the committee is needed on the issue on which there is still no clarity.

Does the committee have a jurisdiction to review the actions of Jimbo Wales when such actions were done in the capacity of a Wikipedia user, that is an editor, an administrator or a steward?

Clearly, ArbCom has no jurisdiction upon Jimbo's actions made on behalf of the board but what about the rest?

What would be appreciated is a simple yes/no answer to this fairly general but important question. All caveats, including Jimbo's "special status", "special role" and the fact that he appoints the committee itself (at times not even consulting the community [38] ) are known. So, please let's not make this request another fork of the pretty heated board referenced above. TIA, --Irpen 18:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not Jimbo Wales's original delegation of authority to the Arbitration Committee in 2004 would have included jurisdiction for ArbCom to review Jimbo's own administrator/bureaucrat/steward actions is doubtful. After all, the Wikipedia:Arbitration policy provides that ArbCom decisions may be appealed to Jimbo Wales. However, in discussing a recent block, Jimbo posted earlier this week that "[o]ne of our oldest traditions, absolutely unquestioned across the entire history of Wikipedia, is that I have the right to ban users who violate our social norms. I am happy to review my own actions, and indeed happy to have them reviewed by the ArbCom, and of course as a matter of tradition equally as strong, I would defer to the ArbCom in any review of my own actions." (Emphasis added.) Thus, Jimbo has agreed that his decisions may be reviewed by the arbitrators. Whether to grant a review in a given instance, precisely what types of decisions are reviewable, and whether such reviews should be sought by filing a conventional request for arbitration or via a different procedure, would presumably be questions for the arbitrators to resolve. Newyorkbrad 20:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Irpen, I love you but you are wasting your time here. Nothing on Wikipedia is ever going to change by challenging Jimbo. He is the "God king", or "King God" or whatever it is they say in Yankyland. He thought of the Wikipedia idea first so has the right to only speak to re-enforce his own view. In spite of this odd leadership the project survives mainly because of addiction of the hardcore content editors and a constant turnover of new editors. The nasty noncontributing little admins stay and procreate themselves because there is little other for them, with their limited capabilities, to do elsewhere. For the true editors by the time disillusionment sets in, addiction has usually caught them. So in spite of the leadership the content of Wikipedia continues to improve, and will continue to do so. If you can accept that life can become very much calmer if not - well the intelligent are welcome everywhere. Giano 21:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amen, brother. -- !! ?? 22:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Giano, I know all that. But I wanted to hear the opinion of the arbs whether they accept the idea in principle that they may be tasked with the reviewing the actions of their benefactor.
Brad, thanks for your comment. I gather from it that in your opinion the committee has a jurisdiction of this narrow issue only. Of course it is always up to arbs whether to exercise such jurisdiction, but this is a separate matter. I hoped to hear from the arbs. --Irpen 21:55, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Which case is this supposed to clarify? Charles Matthews 22:48, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I gather it is intended to seek clarification of the arbitration policy itself. (Perhaps the instruction at the top of this section—"Place requests for clarification on matters related to the Arbitration process in this section"—could itself use some clarification.) I can relocate this thread to Wikipedia talk:Arbitration policy if that would be a more suitable location for it. Newyorkbrad 22:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo's own words quoted above, answer the question that was asked to be clarified, so in effect the power behind the board has answered. As for whether such a case should be brought, that's just silly unless someone can first come up with some very specific questions they feel need answering that have not been answered. I think the talk pages about this have clarified that Jimbo and the community sometimes don't speak the same language and that we all need to learn better how to minimize disruption. If anything is needed at this point with regard to all this, it's an effort by everyone to learn new skills at how to be less disruptive. WAS 4.250 23:38, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a constitutional question (there's the Anglophile again) the Arbitration Committee can and has in the past reviewed actions undertaken by Jimbo, although usually at his request. For the committee to request that it review an action undertaken by him that he had not personally referred to the committee would be different in form but not substance. Mackensen (talk) 11:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jimbo sent an email to wikien-l on 19th April 2007 saying:

Here, let me by decree in this very instant make the following binding
pledge upon myself:
In the event that the ArbCom makes a ruling against me, overturning any
decision I have made in my traditional capacity within Wikipedia, the
ArbCom's decision shall be final.
*This* is a significant change to our policies.
--Jimbo

I think that answers this question quite conclusively. --Tango 12:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think Charles Matthews has hit the nail on the head in his question: Which case is this supposed to clarify? --Tony Sidaway 19:39, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Requests for clarification do not have to refer to an individual existing arbitration case. This request presumably refers to a potential case regarding Jimbo's desysopping of Zscout370. David Mestel(Talk) 19:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As a former arbitration clerk, I am not aware of any change in the status of this section from requests for clarifications of arbitration committee rulings, to general clarifications on policy (which the committee has been historically loth to do outside actual cases). When did this occur? --Tony Sidaway 19:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's sort-of evolved that way. Raul654 19:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) Presumably whenever the subtitle was changed to "on matters related to the Arbitration process". I suspect in reality the real question is whether it is something that has a prospect of occurring, rather than mere conjecture. David Mestel(Talk) 19:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(Edit conflict) Let's not spend too much time on the location-of-the-thread type questions. As I said above, if an arbitrator believes this would belong better on Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration, I'll be happy to move it there. Also, regarding the substance of the inquiry, those interested should now refer to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Jimbo Wales#Response for Jimbo's latest comments on this topic. Newyorkbrad 19:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly think it would be inappropriate, in view of the responses and views on the RFC, to take this to an arbitration request. --Tony Sidaway 20:09, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, pretty much anything (within reason) can be the subject of an arbitration request. Whether or not to accept it is for the committee to decide... David Mestel(Talk) 20:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's been demonstrated that Jimbo's actions aren't default-accepted as being automatically on-the-button, and that when necessary the community will overturn the actions. It has also been demonstrated that Jimbo's actions are, 99% of the time, well thought-out and reasoned, and that should be respected. Nevertheless, whilst it's possible there has been a miscalculation in the decision-making that went on here on Jimbo's part, whether such a thing occurred is up to the Arbitrators, and that will be reflected in their decision to accept or reject. Anthøny 22:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Regarding Robert Prechter remedy

User:Newyorkbrad suggested this was the place to come for this problem.

In the RfA for Robert Prechter Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Robert Prechter I was banned from editing articles related to Prechter, essentially because I was putting "too much" negative information into a WP:BLP. I consider this ban a stain on my reputation. I think that subsequent events have shown that the decision was wrong, and I request that you review the ban.

In early August User:Rgfolsom quit editing Wikipedia following two major set-backs (for him not for Wikipedia). In Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Socionomics (2nd nomination) it was again decided that Socionomics be deleted (it was supposed to be put into a tempory redirect to Prechter and is still there.) Folsom offended many editors in that debate with his attack-dog style. As the closer said:

Discussion. — This is a very unwieldy discussion, so for the sake of efficiency I am simply discounting anything written by Rgfolsom (talk · contribs), who is being paid to promote and defend Robert Prechter's concept of "socionomics" and has a conflict of interest. As volunteer editors, we are simply not playing in the same league as he.

About the same time he fought unsucessfully to have the following deleted from the Prechter article:

In July 2007, the Hulbert Financial Digest, published by Dow Jones, reported that Elliott Wave International's Elliott Wave Financial Forecast had a 15-year annualized return of negative 25.4%/year and a return of negative 17.8% over the life of the newsletter.[17]

This is well documented, and other editors would simply not put up with his demands anymore. I think this is why he quit editing - everybody could easily see his bullying tactics, and the community would not let him use them anymore.

Since I was banned for putting too much weight on negative material, I think this fact needs to be considered (the negative 25.4% annual return over 15 years). When an investment advisor has a negative 25.4% annual return duing the biggest bull market in history, I don't see how the documented quotes from major news sources that I put in the article could be considered to be overly negative.

Combined with his attack-dog style which has offended just about everybody he's dealt with, I'd like you to reconsider the ban.

Sincerely,

Smallbones 23:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I was partially involved during the mediation stage of this case. Rgfolsom was a most-disagreeable person to deal with via e-mail, and I think the restrictions on Smallbones were a bit too much. Personally, I would endorse a restoration of Smallbones' full editing rights. ^demon[omg plz] 13:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Smallbones I think I understand your situation but I have two questions to be sure. Is the "negative" information stuff like: William Power (19 August 1993). "Robert Prechter sees his 3600 on the Dow--But 6 years late". The Wall Street Journal. ? While "positive" information comes mostly from him or his company? If the answers to both questions are yes, IMHO you are actually abiding by WP:NPOV and shouldn't be punished just because the sources say what they do. (Sometimes sources have more negative things to say than positive). Anynobody 08:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. All the negative information was in the form of quotes, from the most reliable business press - e.g. the Wall Street Journal, Fortune, the Financial Times, Barron's. When I put 1 of these sources in the article, Folsom reverted it, when I put 2 in he reverted, 3 ..., 4.... Maybe when I put nine in, it was a bit of overkill. The "positive" sources, if I recall correctly, were exclusively from Folsom's boss Prechter. When I started editing the article, it was a copyright violation, taken directly from Prechter's website. Smallbones 20:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That, for lack of a better word, sucks. This is exactly the type of situation I thought WP:UNDUE was meant to address. (Certainly we can mention Prechter's belief in his system, but the bulk of our article should come from sources like Wall Street Journal, Fortune, the Financial Times, Barron's.
Banning people like you from editing a topic for citing reliable sources is a big mistake and I hope the arbcom will notice this oversight. Anynobody 22:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To prove my point, it looks like Smallbones was topic banned because his version seemed overly negative. However the "negativity" isn't a product of POV pushing on his/her part but simply what the sources say. The two versions given and their references:

Template:Multicol

Smallbones version, includes 20 references:

1. ^ William Power (19 August 1993). "Robert Prechter sees his 3600 on the Dow--But 6 years late". The Wall Street Journal: 1. 2. ^ Robert McGough (July 17, 1997). "Bears Will Be Right On Stocks Someday, Just You Watch --- So They Missed 5,000 Points, It's No Reason They Ought To Stop Prognosticating". The Wall Street Journal: 1. 3. ^ Levy, Adam (February 2003). "The Ultimate Bear". Bloomberg Markets: p. 69. 4. ^ a b c d Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (various dates). "Elliott Wave Theorist". Elliott Wave International. 5. ^ Best Sellers List (11 August 2002). "Book Review". New York Times: p. 24. 6. ^ Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (1999). The Wave Principle of Human Social Behavior and the New Science of Socionomics. Gainesville, Georgia: New Classics Library. 7. ^ Penn, David (June 2003). "Social Mood and the Markets". Technical Analysis of Stocks & Commodities: p. 50. 8. ^ McCaffrey Brecht, Kira (July 2003). "Trader's Hall of Fame Award - Robert Prechter - An Interview with the Elliott Wave Guru". Stocks, Futures & Options Magazine: p. 42. 9. ^ a b Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (1996/2004). Prechter's Perspective. Gainesville, Georgia: New Classics Library, p. 6. 10. ^ Lazarovic, Karen (30 April 1985). "Elliott-wave technician sees 2d-half blastoff". New York Post: p. 36. 11. ^ Shaw, Russell; Landis, David (9 Oct. 1987). "Prechter flees Wall St. for Georgia hills". http://www.usatoday.com/ USA Today]: p. B1. 12. ^ Myerson, Allen R. (October, 1985). "Robert Prechter: From Lake Lanier, He Can See Wall Street Clearly". Georgia Trend: p. 26. 13. ^ Hendrick, Bill (July 15, 1990). "Unbelievers Don't Worry Prechter". Atlanta Journal Constitution: p. H-4. 14. ^ Robert Prechter (October 20, 1987). "The Crash of '87: Bull Market Guru Predicts Further Dow Average Fall". The Wall Street Journal. 15. ^ (October 22, 1987) "Corrections & Amplifications: Robert Prechter". The Wall Street Journal. 16. ^ William Power (19 August 1993). "Robert Prechter sees his 3600 on the Dow--But 6 years late". The Wall Street Journal: 1. 17. ^ Constance Mitchell (December 27, 1988). "Doomsayers Now Are Salient Among Market Bears". The Wall Street Journal. 18. ^ 'Elliott Wave' Forecaster Ends Public Appearances, The Wall Street Journal, March 10, 1989 19. ^ Geoffrey Colvin (16 October 2000). "The Wheelers, the Wavers, and the Star-Struck". Fortune: p. 84. 20. ^ Jonathan R. Laing (26 October 1998). "Ride that Wave! Is Bob Prechter's long-forecast economic and market collapse finally at hand?". Barron's. Template:Multicol-break The "balanced version" excludes citations from some Wall Street Journal articles, leaving 15 references. How can that be called balanced?

1. ^ Best Sellers List (11 August 2002). "Book Review". New York Times: p. 24. 2. ^ Levy, Adam (February 2003). "The Ultimate Bear". Bloomberg Markets: p. 69. 3. ^ a b c d Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (various dates). "Elliott Wave Theorist". Elliott Wave International. 4. ^ Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (1999). The Wave Principle of Human Social Behavior and the New Science of Socionomics. Gainesville, Georgia: New Classics Library. 5. ^ Penn, David (June 2003). "Social Mood and the Markets". Technical Analysis of Stocks & Commodities: p. 50. 6. ^ McCaffrey Brecht, Kira (July 2003). "Trader's Hall of Fame Award - Robert Prechter - An Interview with the Elliott Wave Guru". Stocks, Futures & Options Magazine: p. 42. 7. ^ a b Robert R. Prechter, Jr. (1996/2004). Prechter's Perspective. Gainesville, Georgia: New Classics Library, p. 6. 8. ^ Lazarovic, Karen (30 April 1985). "Elliott-wave technician sees 2d-half blastoff". New York Post: p. 36. 9. ^ Shaw, Russell; Landis, David (9 Oct. 1987). "Prechter flees Wall St. for Georgia hills". USA Today: p. B1. 10. ^ Myerson, Allen R. (October, 1985). "Robert Prechter: From Lake Lanier, He Can See Wall Street Clearly". Georgia Trend: p. 26. 11. ^ Hendrick, Bill (July 15, 1990). "Unbelievers Don't Worry Prechter". Atlanta Journal Constitution: p. H-4. 12. ^ Hulbert, Mark (4 October 1998). "Is the Time Right for Market Timing?". New York Times: p. C-7. 13. ^ Brimelow, Peter. Is Prechter's bearishness permanent?. Retrieved on 2006-12-4. 14. ^ Geoffrey Colvin (16 October 2000). "The Wheelers, the Wavers, and the Star-Struck". [Fortune (magazine): p. 84. 15. ^ William Power (19 August 1993). "Robert Prechter sees his 3600 on the Dow--But 6 years late". The Wall Street Journal. Template:Multicol-end

Anynobody 02:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks to the 2 above editors for their support. Just to be clear, I'm not asking for the case to be be re-arbitrated (even though I disagree with the decision, and think that, in retrospect it should be clear to the arbitrators that the decision was wrong). All I am asking for is that the indefinite ban on me editing articles related to Robert Prechter should be lifted, because a) it's been 7 months and b) nobody seems to have any major disagreement anymore with the edits I made on the Prechter article. And please do remember, Prechter's advice costs his clients 25% of their investment every year (as measured by Hulbert Financial Digest). Do you really want Folsom/Prechter or that type of editor putting his adverts on Wikipedia again? Smallbones 02:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Committee may find it useful to know that I have contacted ^demon by email about the above comment of his. I asked him why he characterized me as being "most-disagreeable" during the Socionomics mediation, but he has not replied. I am bewildered by what ^demon has said now, because my messages to him were civil and respectful; he even offered his help to me in filing the request I brought to this Committee (help which I accepted and found useful indeed). I do not know why ^demon has done this, but I can show that he is plainly mistaken in what he claims. I kept my entire email exchange with ^demon, and I am willing to make all those messages available to him and to the Committee for the asking. If necessary, I will provide Committee members with my gmail user name and password so that they can access my gmail account to verify the content of those emails, including the dates and time stamps.
As for Smallbones' request, I will only note that what he says now is more of what he said then to the Committee during the Arb case. This will be obvious enough to any Committee member who reviews the evidence, workshop, and unanimous vote from that case. Thank you.
--Rgfolsom 18:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Motions in prior cases

(Only Arbitrators may make and vote on such motions. Other editors may comment on the talk page.)
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