Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meli Melo Artists Alliance

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The general agreement was that the sources presented by Cunard amounted to trivial passing mentions and were insufficient to demonstrate notability for a standalone article. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 11:15, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Meli Melo Artists Alliance

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The subject of the article is essentially the same as the recently-deleted article Meli Melo Limited. The same deletion rationale applies here - the subject is not notable; Hong Kong has countless "art jamming" businesses and extracurricular art studios just like this one, and an internet search does not turn up in-depth coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources. Citobun (talk) 06:17, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 08:47, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 08:47, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletion discussions. Jupitus Smart 08:47, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. From the Wikipedia article, "By May 2001, CNN International films a feature on ART JAM for Inside Asia and Telecinco, a Spanish television station covers ART JAM in their program Nosolomusica aired August 2001."
  A feature in CNN International and coverage in Telecinco are strong indicators of notability.
2. Dembina, Andrew (2004-02-22). "Art jam a stroke of genius". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  A chance assignment to shoot photographic portraits kindled a dynamic idea - and a new business - for architect Betty Cheung Yee-wan.
  Now as director of Meli-Melo she brings the joy of painting to hundreds of clients in weekend 'art jam' sessions.
  Previously an architect in Toronto, Ms Cheung was a freelance photographer when the photo assignment came along. It made her realise how deeply she missed the creative pursuits of her past.
  ...
  Putting her creative impulses to the fore, Ms Cheung rented a small space in Sheung Wan in 1999 to hold exhibitions and offer studio space to people. She called it the Meli-Melo Artists' Alliance.
  Meli melo means 'a little bit of everything' in French.
  Then came her Eureka moment: she thought of the concept of an 'art jam' - or informal improvisation, as in musical jam sessions.
3. Au, Desiree (2001-11-02). "Art for the people". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  BUSINESS ANALYSTS may call it a high-risk venture. Their friends may describe it as their new hangout. But for Wilson Chik Wai-chi and Betty Cheung Man-yee, the two partners of the Meli-Melo Artists' Alliance, an informal association of multi-media art enthusiasts, it's the realisation of their vision to bring art and the community together.
  Chik, 30, and Cheung, 34, are the founders of 123 Wellington Street, a simple name for their not-so-simple idea of creating Hong Kong's first informal art hub.
  ...
  Chik and Cheung are counting on a membership fee of $250, an Art Jam admission of $400 and the profits of an art-supply shop to fund their operation. The Meli-Melo Living Arts Cafe can also be used to host private Art Jam parties and ticket sales from shows should keep the project out of the red, Chik and Cheung say. In view of the current economic situation, the pair are unlikely to be flooded with cash. "We are not going to say that it's all for charity," Chik says. "I need to survive too."
4. Beale, Martine (2003-03-02). "We're jammin'". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  It is 10pm on a Saturday night, and the narrow Meli Melo Living Arts Cafe on Wellington Street is packed with people ready to jam. To art jam, that is; to party with paint. Twenty-plus easels are lined up an elbow's width apart, adorned with huge blank canvases waiting for nervous artists to start splattering the acrylics. It's almost impossible not to squirt paint Jackson Pollock-style over your neighbours' shoes thanks to the caked-up nozzles on the paint pumps. Inspiring chill-out lounge music from Europe, the Middle East and Asia fills the studio, and the five-metre high ceilings of the skinny 1929 building in Central allow ample room for the creative spirit to soar ... but first a glass of wine. The hardest part is getting started. Too hard, I decide, and wander off to talk to braver, got-it-together souls - most of them novice artists - who have taken the plunge and jumped head, hand and heart first into creating something from nothing.
5. "畫油畫聽中樂泡香茶 — — 鬧市中非一般蒲點". Headline Daily. 2003-04-25. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  大抵因中學時期曾多番被美術老師打擊自信心，畫具甚至鉛筆早已丟下多年。不是因那天無無聊聊站在 Meli Melo 門外看到有關 ArtJamming 的 Video ，鼓起勇氣走進去，那就無法再感受手執畫具顏料的快樂。 Meli Melo 沒有導師，只有 24 色油畫顏料、 7 、 8 個尺碼的畫掃，顧客穿上黑色酷圍裙，取了顏料畫具便可以動工， Meli Melo 主腦 Betty 說不要企  乾看畫板，若沒頭緒可以飲兩杯先或先開始掃上底色，靈感就會慢慢來。這裏的人來自各行各業，有醫生、律師、銀行家、護士、設計師、記者等，不過 8 、 9 成都是洋人或只操英語的香港人，這裏不失為啟發創作靈感或結識外國朋友的好地方。
6. Watson, Amanda (2000-09-01). "Epic Dreams". South China Morning Post. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  Meli-melo artists' alliance, 5B Wallock Mansion, 219-221 Wing Lok Street, Sheung Wan. 2pm-6pm Sat-Sun, or by appointment. Tel: 9257 1937. Sept 2-17.
  Forget the lonely attic room. For Betty Cheung the creative process is also a social one. It's how the gallery-cum-studio she helped found runs and it's how she best likes to do her own work.
  There was a time when Taiwan-born Cheung bought a cupboard full of paints and canvases and they just sat there untouched. And then there was the moment she and the co-founders of the meli-melo artists alliance decided to hold Art Jam at midnight; sharing art, food and wine with whomever cared to drop by.
7. "Articles in Asian Art News, Volume 17". Asian Art News. Vol. 17. 2000. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  An association of three artists who have named their alliance Meli-Melo (translated from the French as "Bits and Bites") opened a studio-gallery space in Sheung Wan. Their first exhibition, Entanglement, however, was exhibited in the Sheung Wang Civic Centre in October 1999. It featured graphic drawings by Norman Yip, Betty Cheung's photographic stills of Wilson Chik's performance at Yau Ma Tei, and large paintings of male nudes by Gavin Til. Elegant and refined graphite drawings based on notions of personal relationships and states of spiritual consciousness by Normal Yip, entitled First Level, were exhibited in April 2000 at their new wing.
8. Toh, Kezia (2014-03-09). "Let's jam with paint". AsiaOne. Archived from the original on 2017-07-03. Retrieved 2017-07-03.
  The article notes:
  
  In this region, the concept came from Hong Kong in 2000, where Meli Melo Limited claims on its website to have created art jamming as a way to combine art and networking. The company now operates an art jamming centre in Central, Hong Kong.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Meli Melo Artists Alliance to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 09:34, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as whether or not it's currently operating or not today, the applied policy here is WP:What Wikipedia is not, and it fully shows we cannot and will not accept articles simply on asserted news alone, take for example: "kindled a dynamic idea - and a new business - for architect Betty Cheung Yee-wan", "she brings the joy of painting ", "how deeply she missed the creative pursuits of her past", "Putting her creative impulses to the fore", "realisation of their vision to bring art and the community together", "she best likes to do her own work" with the next examples simply being general information. Also relevant is the obvious fact these quotes are primary-sourced therefore not WP:NPOV and we shouldn't mistake them as otherwise simply because CNN aired them, because WP:Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Including of there were possibilities of notability, we've never made compromises against our fundamental policies against webhosting and there's no basis for it now. The shown instances the primary-sourced enters each near possibly acceptable piece shows it can't be confided as genuinely independent therefore GNG cannot apply. SwisterTwister talk 20:10, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

we shouldn't mistake them as otherwise simply because CNN aired them, because WP:Wikipedia is not a newspaper. – a CNN International feature about the subject clearly establishes notability. WP:NOTNEWS does not apply to CNN or television features that are not prompted by breaking news.
The quotes about Betty Cheung Yee-wan are typical writing for reviews or features about artists or architects and does not detract from the sources' independence.
Cunard (talk) 04:17, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete -- just a private company going about its business and trying to generate publicity. The above coverage are either passing mentions or not independent of the subject, as in:

"...where Meli Melo Limited claims on its website to have created art jamming..." Etc.

Wikipedia does not exist to republish claims of non notable companies. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:29, 8 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:17, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: per nom - no web site - not even sure they exist anymore. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 21:34, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Per Wikipedia:Notability#Notability is not temporary, it does not matter whether Meli Melo Artists Alliance exists. What matters is whether they have received significant coverage in multiple reliables sources. The sources from CNN International, Telecinco, South China Morning Post, and Headline Daily demonstrate they have.
Cunard (talk) 04:17, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I googled Meli Melo Artists Alliance CNN and nothing related to the group came up. If it was a notable segment, it would be online somewhere. While the publications/sites they appeared in are certainly notable, the coverage they got from them does not itself seem notable. If they are indeed gone that means we shouldn't expect to see any new coverage either. Compare to Melkweg - a similar seeming artists' collective/destination location that actually doesn't even have any sources, for which I've flagged it. I happen to have been there and know it's a very notable destination and a city landmark. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 22:20, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The CNN International feature is from 2001. There is no requirement that a television feature must be notable to be usable as a source for establishing notability. Meli Melo Artists Alliance is notable for the significant coverage it has received in international reputable sources like CNN International and Telecinco and Hong Kong sources like South China Morning Post and Headline Daily. I agree that Melkweg is notable. But so is Meli Melo Artists Alliance.

Cunard (talk) 03:45, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just not seeing it. If you feel strongly enough, I recommend you put the info and sources into the article, so it can be judged in the proper format. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 06:01, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am disinclined from spending time improving an article that can be deleted at AfD. Cunard (talk) 07:24, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do exactly that. I may still lose but feel I tried. See ongoing Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Core77. You are an experienced editor and certainly don't need anyone telling you how to do things, but I look at all the time you spent coming up with the info on the talk page, when I think it would be more effective adding it to the article space. I saw a closed AfD for an article called Upay India, and then editor MrMagoo found many sources and put links to them on the talk page, but the article was deleted. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PayU India I requested to have the content sent to me so I could take a shot at improving it with MrMagoo's sources. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 16:09, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I try to minimize losing my content work to deletion because it'd be a waste of my limited time. I've commented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Core77 with sources I have found. I wish you the best of luck in recreating PayU India with MrMagoo's sources. Cunard (talk) 06:48, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - that's good info you found. TimTempleton ^(talk) ^(cont) 17:52, 13 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: To further discuss the sources mentioned
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, So Why 07:57, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unchanged -- the sources have been evaluated and found to be lacking; they do not meet WP:CORPDEPTH and / or are not sufficiently independent (i.e. by republishing the company's claims). K.e.coffman (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Quite OK under WP:GNG. Anyone or any group can have a notable past. If an article passes the WP:GNG then we keep it in Wikipedia; whatever happening now has no bearing on its inclusion. STSC (talk) 09:53, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note to closing admin – I want to point out that this user has an intense grudge against me (note all the frivolous warning templates he/she has put on my talk page). Citobun (talk) 03:32, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I only have a different opinion on the article, I don't hold a grudge against you, please relax. STSC (talk) 04:48, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - While I appreciate Cunard's efforts in sourcing the article, I do not agree with their assessment that they represent significant coverage. They appear to be passing mentions. Does not pass WP:GNG or WP:CORPDEPTH. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:47, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 10:26, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Those sources are more or less promotional articles, and it doesn't help that its parent article already got deleted.—CycloneIsaac (Talk) 18:51, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.