Fantasy Book Club discussion

Fantasy Characters: What makes or breaks them? What makes you relate to them, hate them, throw the book at them, or fall head over heels?

Expound to your heart's content. Tell us about characters you love and why. Speculate on what made them special, etc.

We once again have three authors we've invited to aid in this discussion. They are Carol Berg, Martha Wells, and Dennis L. McKiernan. So let's all pick their brains from our perspective as readers about how they create their characters.

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Biographical info on Dennis L. McKiernan:
(Author of the Mithgar Series, the Faery Series, and other works)

I spent a great deal of my early life looking through twilights and dawns seeking . . . what? Ah yes, I remember — seeking signs of wonder, searching for pixies and fairies and other such, looking in tree hollows and under snow-laden bushes and behind waterfalls and across wooded, moonlit dells. I did not outgrow that curiosity, that search for the edge of Faery when I outgrew childhood—not when I was in the U.S. Air Force during the Korean War, nor in college, nor in graduate school, nor in the thirty-one years I spent in research and development at Bell Telephone Laboratories as an engineer and manager on ballistic missile defense systems and then telephone systems and in think-tank activities. In fact I am still at it, still searching for glimmers and glimpses of wonder in the twilights and the dawns. I am abetted in this curious behavior by Martha Lee, my helpmate, lover, and, as of this writing, my wife of over fifty-three years.

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Biographical info on Martha Wells:

Martha Wells is the author of short stories, non-fiction, and eleven fantasy novels, including The Wizard Hunters, The Ships of Air, The Gate of Gods, The Element of Fire, and the Nebula-nominated The Death of the Necromancer. Her new fantasy novel, The Cloud Roads, has just been released by Night Shade Books. The sequel, The Serpent Sea, will be published in 2012.

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Biographical info on Carol Berg:

Carol Berg majored in mathematics at Rice University, so she wouldn't have to write papers, though she took every English course that listed novels on the syllabus, so she would have time to keep reading. Somewhere in the midst of raising three sons, earning another degree - this time in computer science - and a software engineering career, a friend teased her into exchanging letters "in character" and life changed forever. Since TRANSFORMATION was published in 2000, Carol's twelve epic fantasy novels have earned national and international acclaim, including the Geffen, the Prism, and multiple Colorado Book Awards. Her duology, FLESH AND SPIRIT and BREATH AND BONE won the 2009 Mythopoeic Fantasy Award for Adult Literature. In a starred review, Kirkus Reviews calls Carol’s latest novel, THE SOUL MIRROR, "compelling and altogether admirable." Carol lives in Colorado at the foot of the Rocky Mountains and on the internet at http://www.carolberg.com.

I like my character where I can know their moral principles comes from, then learning from them as they fight out others who are against their morals, but can grow as a character. This way I know where they are coming from. For example my two favorite characters of all time, is Drizzt from R.A. Salvatore's Legend of Drizzt series, and Martin the Warrior from the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. Those character also is the plot of their books, when a book is character driven I feel like I have been with them their whole life, connected as one.

Since you've got Carol Berg joining in, can I gush? I love the books I've read of hers. Her characters were some that I just loved: Seyonne, Prince Alexander, Valen. (I'm sure there were more, but it's been a while since I read them and I can't remember all of the names.) It may have been that I experienced the story with them through the first person narrative, but I think I really felt like I knew them.

Another author who does characters really well is Janny Wurts. Arithon, Lysaer, Elaira, Sethvir, etc. still feel like good friends to me. They are very well fleshed out and certainly have their flaws. I feel like I can relate to them and grieve when they struggle, cry when they're hurt and rejoice when they triumph.

I know a book is successful with its characterization when I don't want it to end when I reach the last page. Sometimes I keep the story going in my head, just to keep with the characters longer. Other times I can't start a new book because I'm too invested in the one I just finished and I don't want to leave that world and people behind just yet. For me, I have to care about what happens to the characters in order for the book to have the greatest impact on me.

No, Amelia, positively no gushing...well, ok, just this once :-))) (And thanks!)

I think you zeroed in on a couple of things that are really important to me when creating characters. I want readers to experience the story with my characters. I want them all - not just the point of view character - to seem real enough human enough that their actions, observations, and reactions seem "true."

You also mention flaws. Nothing drives me battier than heroes and heroines who can do everything well, unless it is villains who have no reasoning behind their wicked ways. I like to think that my villainous characters always had a chance to choose a path not so different from my heroes, and that it is choices that make the difference. Of course, then it's up to me to show where those choices come from. Hard work.

Carol wrote: "No, Amelia, positively no gushing...well, ok, just this once :-))) (And thanks!)

I think you zeroed in on a couple of things that are really important to me when creating characters. I want reade..."

Amelia nailed it when she named those characters you created Carol. I loved them all. Stories just don't make it with me when I can't believe in the characters. I wold be hard pressed though to be able to say what makes that happen. Maybe you writers can talk about the process of creating characters.

Carol wrote: "No, Amelia, positively no gushing...well, ok, just this once :-))) (And thanks!)

I think you zeroed in on a couple of things that are really important to me when creating characters. I want reade..."

Ok, no more gushing. :)

I must say nothing turns me off a book more than when I get to a point where a character does something and I start thinking "Really, ... did they just do that? groan."

I prefer non-traditional heroes, especially anti-heroes. Characters are much more interesting if they have more complex motivations for doing what they do instead of just wanting to defeat the villain/save the world. Anti-heroes are the most interesting to me because i think they most closely resemble real people.

As mentioned before it is important that characters have flaws. Characters that have no flaws are completely unintersting, because there is no real possibillity for growth. I also hate it when the protagonist is to powerfull.

Three of my favourite characters are:

Gerald Tarrant from: The Coldfire Trilogy

Azhrarn from: Night's Master

John Taylor from: Nightside

Me, I'd like characters who are not the smartest, cleverest, strongest, bravest, most heroic, best-at-everything people. Instead, I like characters who rather caught up in dire events, and rise to meet the occasion, the ordinary-person hero, who might come from an extraordinary set of people (such as Warrows or Elves or ... well, you get the idea). I also like the writers who have their heroes and heroines feel fear, dread what is coming, etc., and by that I mean the writer can't simply *tell* me that the hero is scared ... the writer has to *show* me that he is: His heart raced, his palms were slick with sweat, and he wondered if he could even manage to draw the bow and aim the arrow, much less be able to loose it when the time came.

I also need to *feel* his joy, his sorrow, his passion for whatever seems important at the time. I need to *see* his rage and fume along with him, suffer his bitterness, and laugh uproariously with him.

As for the villains, I need to be sickened by their plans, be anguished by their deeds, want to strangle them.

As you can see, I like my good guys to make me feel what they feel, and the bad guys to rage at them for being who and what they are.

Of course, both good and bad have to be set in a gem of a story.

I have often told new writers that the secret of success in this business is to have the ability to tell a good story well. First one must have a good story to tell, and then one has to tell it well, and part of telling it well is to have characters you identify with, fall in love with, suffer with, have joy with, and who prevail against the most terrible odds against a villain you have come to hate.

Having believable characters are a vital part of telling a good story well.

---Dennis

Those are the kinds of characters

Amelia wrote: I must say nothing turns me off a book more than when I get to a point where a character does something and I start thinking "Really, ... did they just do that? groan."

Yes! The twists and turns of the plot must flow from the characters. You can make your characters do what you want - even if it is the last thing they would ever want to do - but you must lay the groundwork beforehand.

I agree about flawed characters and anti-heroes; characters who make mistakes and have flawed perceptions are just much more interesting to me.

I also like books that stick very closely to the character's POV, so I can see the world of the book through their eyes.

Martha wrote: "I agree about flawed characters and anti-heroes; characters who make mistakes and have flawed perceptions are just much more interesting to me.

I also like books that stick very closely to the cha..."

I do, too, Martha. I think the close POV helps me to identify with the character and understand what is going on. However, I became totally obsessed with Francis Crawford in Dorothy Dunnett's Lymond Chronicles, and Dunnett hardly ever lets us know what's going on in Crawford's mind. Perhaps a tantalizing distance? Not sure, but it works for me.

On the other hand, I just finished Warchild by Karin Lowachee which is written in first person, and found the hero so wrenchingly well portrayed as to almost leap off the page.

Like Amelia, I love the characters in Janny Wurts Wars of Light and Shadow, and she moves back and forth from distance to closeness. I had a love/hate relationship with Dakar in the beginning until I thought he'd been killed in a certain scene and I sobbed my heart out.

Guy Kay writes beautiful books, and keeps distance between the reader and the characters at times in a way that mostly works. A scene in The Lions of al-Rassan had me sobbing once again as it was very close to an experience I had one time.

Readers bring their own stuff to the reading experience as well, I find. Sometimes in book discussions I wonder why someone else hates a character that I love!

And certainly, flaws are absolutely necessary. Perfection is, in the end, a bore.

And I want to be sure to say, Martha, that Nicholas in The Death of the Necromancer and his love, Madeline, were wonderful characters. Nicholas the rogue, and Madeline the spunky, creative actress. Truly delightful, both of them.

Carol wrote:

Yes! The twi..."

I totally agree. The writer must set the stage and control events so that whatever the writer has the characters do, it is completely accepted by the reader. Nothing worse than the reader throwing the book against the wall, or simply closing it to never open it again when the writer has not properly set the stage, the character, and the events.

---Dennis

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "And I want to be sure to say, Martha, that Nicholas in The Death of the Necromancer and his love, Madeline, were wonderful characters. Nicholas the rogue, and Madeline the spunky, cr..."

As long as we are gushing, I would also like to gush in Martha's general direction. Tremaine Valiarde, Ilias and Kade Carrion are among my favorite characters of all time. I think one of the things I have found most engaging about your characters was that they all seem to share a certain sense of that life is both ridiculous and sublime. The heroes, in any case, have all been touched by sadness and disappointment, and are remarkably clear-eyed about the motivations and failings of those around them, and yet this does not prevent them from fighting for what is right, for themselves and for all of the other imperfect people. They are often cynical, but not without hope for better things, and that resonates with me more than it probably should! I look forward to reading The Cloud Roads very much.

Simone wrote: As long as we are gushing, I would also like to gush in Martha's general direction. Tremaine Valiarde, Ilias and Kade Carrion are among my favorite characters of all time. I think one of the things I have found most engaging about your characters was that they all seem to share a certain sense of that life is both ridiculous and sublime. The heroes, in any case, have all been touched by sadness and disappointment, and are remarkably clear-eyed about the motivations and failings of those around them, and yet this does not prevent them from fighting for what is right, for themselves and for all of the other imperfect people. They are often cynical, but not without hope for better things, and that resonates with me more than it probably should! I look forward to reading The Cloud Roads very much. "

Well said, Simone. Nicholas and Madeline fall into that same category.

I like characters that are broken, sometimes so messed up they're just struggling to hold themselves together. I love watching them try to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, feeling the same anguish when they fail, feeling the triumph when they finally succeed. Carol does this so well (sorry, haven't read any of the others). Valen, Seyonne, Portier, and that guy from Song of the Beast whose name I just cannot remember. Granted, I have some other favorites that aren't so shattered, and I do have to take a break from Carol's stuff sometimes, if only to catch my breath. But those are the ones that I come back to time after time. Maybe I like them so much because if they can be heroes, then maybe I can get past all the brokenness life's dealt me and I can be a hero too.

Kendra wrote: "I like characters that are broken, sometimes so messed up they're just struggling to hold themselves together. I love watching them try to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, feeling the same a..."

I like that kind, too, Kendra... and maybe for the same reasons.

Dennis L. McKiernan wrote: "Me, I'd like characters who are not the smartest, cleverest, strongest, bravest, most heroic, best-at-everything people. Instead, I like characters who rather caught up in dire events, and rise to..."

You must like Hobbits :-)

The sine qua non for me is the ability to become a character in a book. I suppose this is what 'relates to' means. But, I feel more, a need to actually be a character. I like variety from anti-hero, to classic hero to a scapegrace and in general the character needs be male. Of course he needs to be well drawn, have some complexity, etc., but need not be the protagonist(s).

The characters personality have to be realistic, for example if you have character, he has had a protected and loving childhood, then he is of course not a suspicious or paranoid person. My point is the characters personality have to correspond with their upbringing and former experience. That's why i like coming of age stories, where i get to experience the characters upbringing. I like characters that are flawed to certain extent but there has to be a reason for their flaws. For example the character Kennit in the Liveship Traders by Robin Hobb, he is definetely not a good guy, but it is easy to understand why, when you learn what he has been through. When it comes to female characters i like strong women that are not afraid of fighting their enemies or taking charge.

Writer seem to have many ways of engaging characters and readers. I find several methods work.

Dennis gets me every time - his characters are either so down to earth, or so heroic - but what tapes them together and makes them stick: he gets them to care about each other so deeply, more than once, I've been caught aback crying if one gets offed....I never expected this, but it's happened with his work several times - the traits he portrays are so endearing, they sneak up and steal my heart.

Carol's characters are so beautifully rounded - they have their outer selves, and their inner secrets, and they way they shift and change as she opens them up through story is nothing short of awesome. I know with her work, nothing is as it seems, and they stories have never let me down - the sense of dimension and discovery just blows me away - she can make the beautiful turn ugly and vice versa - until in hindsight, you can imagine the story could happen no other way.

And Martha's Death of the Necromancer remains one of my favorites - for the sheer wizardry of detail, so beautifully chosen, that the characters just spring off the page. They come off as well rounded, good and bad, intriguing and deep - with such an eclectic mix of ideals and mannerisms - it's very deft.

All three approaches work for me - the distance with detail, or the up close, inner monologue that gives the character a voice and outlook, but one needs to watch what they DO to really get a sense of them - to characters that have caring relationships - I have to become engaged in their emotional conflicts and victories.

Funny, I just asked for some recommendations on my blog, for what book to buy tomorrow and now I have some. The reason I popped on over here.

Janny's, I've got, and the majority of Carol's, too. Janny knows my feelings about Lysaer and Arithon but the most memorable of Carol's heroes, for me, is Aidan. I will never forget that opening in the prison. Never. As I will never forget Arithon in prison either. The suffering in both cases was so real, I was 'there' rooting for both of them to get out.

But Martha and Dennis... I am sure I have one of Martha's books on the shelf but I'd like to be persuaded as to why I should buy one tomorrow. Same with Dennis, if you don't mind. Or, if you prefer, what are the author's favorite characters and why?

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "And I want to be sure to say, Martha, that Nicholas in The Death of the Necromancer and his love, Madeline, were wonderful characters. Nicholas the rogue, and Madeline the spunky, cr..."

Thanks very much!

Simone wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "And I want to be sure to say, Martha, that Nicholas in The Death of the Necromancer and his love, Madeline, were wonderful characters. Nicholas the rogue, and..."

Thank you, Simone! I hope you enjoy The Cloud Roads just as much. :)

Janny wrote: "Writer seem to have many ways of engaging characters and readers. I find several methods work.

Dennis gets me every time - his characters are either so down to earth, or so heroic - but what tapes..."

Thanks, Janny!

I've been trying to think what my favorite type of character is, and I don't think I actually have one. As long as the character is emotionally engaging, and I get involved in their story, then I like them, whether it's a cynical anti-hero or someone who is very young and very optimistic and seeing the world for the first time, or any other variation in between.

Some of my all-time favorite SF/F characters include Master Li and Number Ten Ox from Barry Hughart's books, Dracula from Fred Saberhagen's The Dracula Tapes and The Holmes-Dracula File, and Cordelia Naismith from Lois Bujold's series, especially Barrayar.

This topic has been interesting reading. I've thought about it & decided the type of character I like best depends a lot on the POV. For a first person narration, I like an enigmatic hero or heroine. A couple of my favorites are Conrad from This Immortal & Loby from The Einstein Intersection. Even they aren't quite sure what they're going to do next. Their back stories are full of holes, which helps the air of mystery. Other character types work, just not as well for me.

I haven't figured out what type of character I want from other view points. I'm sure there isn't one, but many. Too much depends on the genre as well as the plot. I thought I didn't want Mike Hammer doing comedy, but then I remembered William F. Nolan did pretty much just that in Space for Hire, a book that still tickles me occasionally. So I don't know. I guess I'm like Stewart on pornography - I know it when I see it.

I like characters who are strong and can take care of themselves. Emotionaly unstable characters make me feel nervous and I wish to help them =D, but I can't.
It's interesting, when a characters is set in situation that is completely uncommon both for me and the character, to see how the problem will be solve. It's less fun when the character creates atmosphere of helplessnes.

Susan wrote: a note asking for my favorite characters , and why.

So, Susan, you want me to choose among my children, eh?
(Not gonna do it.)

I will say that many of my readers choose the book "Dragondoom" as their favorite. It is a love story between a starcrossed pair. Most people tell me that it brings them to tears. Perhaps that is explanation enough.

There are some characters who appear in a number of the books of the Mithgar series (an Elf, Aravan, among them, who most of my female readers fall in love with, and most of my male readers choose as the one they identify with).

On the other hand, in the Faery series, there are a number of characters that make me laugh (one, a tiny winged sprite, Flic, who has a pet bumblebee, Buzzer). Of course, the each of the first four books in the Faery series is a retelling of a well-known fairy tale ... all but one are rather difficult for the reader to know just what fairy tale it is until way, way far into the book, and then most readers say, "Ah, that fairy tale." The fifth and final book in the series is a culminating fairy tale of the first four books.

I really had fun writing the Faery series, and the characters were a delight to write (even the bad guys). I also had (and have) fun writing the Mithgar series, though each one of those (mostly stand-alone but related stories) is a bit darker than the stories set in Faery.

But as to my favorite characters, each has a lot going for him/her, and it is difficult to choose among them, though every time some reader takes a poll on "favorite" characters, many are chosen.

But as to villains, Baron Stoke always tops the list.

---Dennis

I agree with you, Mare_1503. I like characters who are strong, spunky and have lots of moxie, especially if they're female. I really do cringe at helpless, weak heroines who need a strong, brawny male around all the time to help them cope with everything. The character doesn't have to be Superman or Superwoman by any means, but at least have the ability to help themselves out of situations instead of waiting meekly for someone else to come to their aid.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "And I want to be sure to say, Martha, that Nicholas in The Death of the Necromancer and his love, Madeline, were wonderful characters. Nicholas the rogue, and Madeline the spunky, cr..."

This was the first book of the author's I read and I was hooked. I only wish she would write MORE!

I agree with mare_1503, too. It doesn't matter how dire and horrible the situation is, as long as I feel like the character has the mental resilience to take it. Characters who feel perpetually helpless or victimized, and never seem to be able to get out of that state, tend to turn me off.

Joy wrote: This was the first book of the author's I read and I was hooked. I only wish she would write MORE!

Thank you very much, Joy! I write all the time, but unfortunately getting it published isn't always possible.

Janny wrote: Carol's characters are so beautifully rounded...

Thanks, Janny. And thanks, Susan, for the good words about Aidan. (From Song of the Beast.) I love him, too. I do like writing broken people (as my readers will attest). They have to dig a little deeper to find the strength to keep going as well as put themselves back together.

Several of you have mentioned strong women, and dislike of helplessness in either make or female characters. I'm with you, but I find that sometimes I have to draw the lines very carefully.

When I was halfway through with writing Transformation, I realized I had three important female characters, and all of them were smart, assertive, strong, well educated, (and, oh, yes, tall and good looking. Was this wish fulfillment, Carol?????) I had to take a step back and really think about the roles they needed to play in the story. It's really easy to fall into "strong woman" stereotypes.

All three of them were constricted by women's roles in the society they lived in. They didn't all need to be good with weapons. They didn't all three need to be educated. In the end, I think, they came out very different from each other. (And from the other women in my books.)

I took that kind of learning back to my male characters as well. I go looking for strength that is not necessarily physical...or magical...or sheer intelligence, though I they often show up with one or more of those things. I search for strengths that are hidden and that are, perhaps, more important than all the others put together. Hard thinking. Did I mention that?

That's what I look for in good characters. Individuality. A feeling that these people live beyond the confines of the story.

Among the "good guys," I like them to have grit and heart as well.

Dennis L. McKiernan wrote: "Among the "good guys," I like them to have grit and heart as well."

I think we can all agree on that. Although a marshmallow character is okay if they develop grit along the way.. I'm reminded of Donaldson's Mordant's Need, in which the heroine nearly drove me nuts until she finally began to think for herself.

Yes, Sandra. I felt the same way about the heroine in Mordant's Need. I liked her a lot after a while. Donaldson definitely strains the reader's acceptance with his heroes and heroines. It is a tough move on an author's part to present a "central character" who is not only not heroic, but unlikeable. But the journey to heroism from such a place can be wonderful, if you can persuade readers to patience. There has to be SOMEthing to hold me...even if it is pity.

Carol wrote: "Yes, Sandra. I felt the same way about the heroine in Mordant's Need. I liked her a lot after a while. Donaldson definitely strains the reader's acceptance with his heroes and heroines. It is a..."

Exactly! If I hadn't had a friend urging me to be patient, I might not have finished Mordant's Need. I definitely think he dragged it on a little too long. I haven't read anything else by him.

I'm reminded of Dakar in Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow. I had very little patience with his obtuse and narrow minded outlook on life until he began his transformation in the third volume. And when he finally 'saw the light' so to speak, I was in tears.

Some authors are really good at giving us views of the character from 'unreliable reporters' that paint very dark pictures indeed. I'm thinking in particular of Dorothy Dunnett in the Lymond Chronicles with Francis Crawford. We see him many times from the point of view of various characters who hate him and all manner of deeds are attributed to him that may or may not be true. Somehow, she unveils all of this and we come to love this guy intensely. I'm currently reading King Hereafter, and she does the same thing with the hero of this book, although not to the same degree as with the Lymond Chronicles. So somehow she gives us enough to keep me, at any rate, reading.

I'm reminded of the process that Seyonne goes through in the last book of the Rai Kirah series when he becomes so god like that he's almost unbearable. I was so relieved when Aleksander came to fight him and finally the light dawned for him.

So change and transformation is something that I definitely want to see in my characters. Their emotional reactions need to be congruent with what's happening to them.

For me, characters need to be real. Their motivations and actions are a result of the influences that surround them. There need to be reasons, specific or obscure. A character (just like any one of us) wouldn't just do something for no reason. And we don't always make the right decisions--neither should a good character.

The characters also need to evolve over the course of the story. Flat characters are a bore, and I'll stop reading. I love it when I'm thrust into a state of doubt over where a particular character is emotionally or morally at the end of a book in a series. It's so much more fun to wonder where that character will be and what he'll be doing at the beginning of the next story. Ambiguity is fun.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Exactly! If I hadn't had a friend urging me to be patient, I might not have finished Mordant's Need. "

Guilty as charged. I hope the journey through Mordant's Need was worth the drag. :) I've read almost everything by Donaldson, and he seems to prefer extremely flawed characters for center stage.

I prefer characters who grow, have depth, courage and integrity (or eventually find those last two qualities) and I eventually need to care about them. I especially love characters who exhibit unconditional love or self-sacrifice, especially if it seems to be completely foreign to their 'normal' routine and a direct result of their journey and growth.

Of our panel of authors, I've read (and highly recommended) several of Carol's novels (both the Lighthouse duology and Song of the Beast) and my favorite by Dennis is The Eye of the Hunter, which was the first novel I ever read by him although not the last. My favorites book shelf is full of other examples.

I've got three personal favorite characters, which I keep returning to over and over again. Aeron from The Copper Crown; Kerowyn from By the Sword (Kerowyn's Tale); and, Menolly from Dragonsinger.

Jon wrote: "Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Exactly! If I hadn't had a friend urging me to be patient, I might not have finished Mordant's Need. "

Guilty as charged. I hope the journey through Mordant's Need was wor..."

Well, yes, it was worth it. Should've said so in my post. I now have very fond memories of that book and its very vivid world.

Martha wrote: "Joy wrote: This was the first book of the author's I read and I was hooked. I only wish she would write MORE!

Thank you very much, Joy! I write all the time, but unfortunately getting it publish..."

I just want to express my outrage at publishers. I'm retired and read about 2-3 fantasy novels a week (bless the library) and I can attest to the FACT that there is a lot of CRAP being publish. Nothing half as well crafted & thought out or as engaging as your work. Send those folks to my house and I'll kick their butts for you, they obviously need a wupping by an old lady.

Joy wrote: "Martha wrote: "Joy wrote: This was the first book of the author's I read and I was hooked. I only wish she would write MORE!

Thank you very much, Joy! I write all the time, but unfortunately get..."

Amen!

I just want to express my outrage at publishers. I'm retired and read about 2-3 fantasy novels a week (bless the library) and I can attest to the FACT that there is a lot of CRAP being publish. Nothing half as well crafted & thought out or as engaging as your work. Send those folks to my house and I'll kick their butts for you, they obviously need a wupping by an old lady.

Thanks, Joy. :) I have a new book out now, but it did take about two years for it to find a publisher.

Not to ignore Carol Berg; I read the first of your books just recently, The Spirit Lens and was so pleased I read your older books Flesh and Spirit and Breath and Bone.

Are these of the same 'world' so to speak, but different times? I enjoyed them all. I know I'm invested in a story when I have really to make myself NOT read ahead to satisfy my curiosity as to outcome.

I have to wait a bit for The Soul Mirror there's a long reserve list at the library for it.

Thanks, Joy. I'm happy you enjoyed the books.

No, these are not at all the same world. Each of my series, the Rai-kirah books, the D'Arnath books, the Lighthouse book (Flesh & Spirit/Breath and Bone), and the Collegia Magica books, as well as the standalone Song of the Beast (being re-released this October!) are set in different worlds.

When a character speaks to me - and that's how almost every one of my literary ventures has come to life - he or she brings along the world, too. Not complete, but only hints.

Only with the Lighthouse books did I have an idea about the world first, and it went nowhere for about a year. Then one day I saw this tall gangly guy lying on the floor of the monastery church as if he was taking holy orders, and saying, "What the hell am I doing here?" And I sat down and wrote the first chapter, and said, OK, here we go. And then Valen tormented me for 2 and 1/2 years!

For the large part, my plots grow out of the characters. I have to figure out how they got in the fix where I discovered them, and why and then what they have to do about it. And I want them real, just like Jeffrey said.

Carol wrote: "Thanks, Joy. I'm happy you enjoyed the books.

No, these are not at all the same world. Each of my series, the Rai-kirah books, the D'Arnath books, the Lighthouse book (Flesh & Spirit/Breath and..."

I do hope in the future you might revisit Valen. There are several story threads I'd like to see fleshed out. Does he have that child forced on him? Will he complete his love affair with that wonderful female healer character you created? How do the twins grow up? However, I love books that leave questions. It gives my own imagination fuel for my own 'head' stories. Thank YOU for a good read.

Trying to decribe/define why I like/love various characters is like trying to define why I love my friends...

I've never been able to say "THIS" is why I want or need "you" in my life. It all comes down to any sense of connection I feel with the characters. Usually it involves the will and ability to continue on through adversity, a sense of humor, and the feeling that the character has emotional connections to the people or places or history of the story.

Many, many characters have managed to reach me, far too many to list, and I'm not really sure I can pick out favorites.

Let's see...Paksennarion from The Deed of Paksenarrion by Elizabeth Moon. The connection was there from the start, helped along, I'm sure, by the fact that I was in the Army at the time I discovered these books. Paks developed and strengthened as the story progressed. She had the "it" that makes me come back to a story time and again.

Garion from David Eddings was another character I grew to love. Although it is very hard for me to say "just him". Especially from the first five books, the sum of the cast is greater than any one piece of it. But, Garion's growth from (of course) callow youth to capable adult is certainly the central aspect of the series. And he can turn into a wolf...so cool.

I have a hard time choosing any single character from Dennis L. McKiernan's works. I have all the Mithgar books and I enjoyed or loved them all. I do have a fondness for shifters, so Urus and Bair were great to read. But this is another set of stories in which the ensemble and the various interactions means more to me than any single character within the grouping. Not that the individuals are unimportant, not by any means, but it is how the characters intersect that is the "it" factor.

Tracy, you are exactly right: ensembles interactions can make or break a story, and I prefer a cast in which every one of the main characters brings strengths to the tale. I think that's why I like third person stories rather than first person ones. In first person stories, we always look at the tale through the filters of a single person, and I believe that I would rather have the broader view. Not to say that there aren't excellent first-person stories. Yet even in an ensemble, we can often bring single points of view to bear through writer "tricks," such as separating one of the characters from the rest, or using line breaks to shift from one POV to another ... more or less having sections of first-person filters scattered here and there.

Even so, the interplay of dialog and actions/reactions of the various members of an ensemble seem to me to be better told in third person.

But enough of my blather. I merely like a well knitted ensemble in the stories.

Yes, I like a well knitted ensemble, also, Dennis. I love a variety of characters with lots of quirks, foibles, eccentricities, strengths, weaknesses, etc. It can make or break a story. There's a crime series I'm particularly fond of by Craig Johnson - the Walt Longmire mysteries. The stories are told in first person, but the peripheral characters add so much. Sometimes, though, we can be overwhelmed by the introduction of many characters at once. I'm limping along in Gardens of the Moon, experiencing this feeling. I'm sticking it out to book 3 to give the series a fair chance, though. Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga has many characters, but I'm introduced more gradually so that I don't have to remember so much at once.

Ha. I'm getting old. :)

Dennis L. McKiernan wrote: "I totally agree. The writer must set the stage and control events so that whatever the writer has the characters do, it is completely accepted by the reader. Nothi..."

While I completely agree with the sentiment, I completely disagree that the author has to control anything. While I can't know how an author wrote a book, I can say that the books I liked least are the books that read as if the author had written them based on an outline or a formula, or at the other end of the spectrum, as if the author was rolling dice in each scene.

As an author, I spend most of my time trying to follow the character's logic and figure out what he's going to do next. I've been writing extensively about story evolution and character creation (not 'characterization') over on my blog, http://authorguy.wordpress.com .

As for ensembles, smaller is better. Epic stories with a cast of dozens turn me off. Not only do they tend to run long but the story often gets fractured into pieces trying to give face time to everyone. A group of three, maybe four, is my favorite size.

I don't really care how many are in the ensemble. I've read the stories with small groups, they usually end up feeling more...mmm..intimate, I guess. The larger ensembles can get fractured into smaller groups, but not always, and the stories usually have a more "epic" feel. What I need in order to enjoy either type of ensemble story is to see the connections between the various members. I like to feel "the group" grow and develop, whether it is to strengthen old and on-going ties or to make new ties and relationships within the group. I guess I just like to view group dynamics.