Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Minetest

Minetest

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The article is about a non-notable game. The article provides a few sources but only one is reliable and one reliable source can not establish notability. The article has had a while to establish notability, but failed to do so and in my belief is now appropriate for a AfD discussion. John F. Lewis (talk) 16:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - Of the sources provided, all are either unreliable or not independent; notability is not established. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 16:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
• Keep - If Minecraft is notable, its competitors are as well. Notability goes beyond Wikipedia's overly-strict rules - it also matters whether the people who play, modify, or contribute to the game consider it to be. In addition, you can't expect a game with 1% of the user base that Minecraft has to be able to achieve the same amount of coverage in third-party media. That's like expecting someone to first gain nation- or worldwide recognition of some invention of theirs before it's allowed to be covered on Wikipedia - despite how vital it might be to, say, national security, public health, etc. Before you start deleting articles that at least have some citations from sources that are considered reliable within the community, try first deleting EVERY article from Wikipedia that has no sources at all, or where those sources are dubious. Vanessaezekowitz (talk) 20:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello Vanessa, May I say, Just because Minecraft is notable does not mean Minetest is. Also, AfD is a place where editors nominate articles that they thing are not supposed to be on Wikipedia, Being here does not guarantee removal hence if you want to provide a reason of why Minetest should stay you need to use policies. Just saying 'Minecraft is notable' is not a valid reason. Minetest has one reliable source, which is just on the edge of being reliable. Wikipedia sometimes keeps articles with no sources (In extreme cases) because they are themselves notable and have no challenged (Or could be challenged) data. In addition some of the sources used do not include the information they are verifying, And there is the question of most Minetest images being deleted for copyright violations (As evidences by the Minetest history). John F. Lewis (talk) 20:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Copyright violations? I see no such things. All images uploaded and linked to the article when I last looked were all freely available per the game's and its imagery's licenses as all of them are screenshots from different parts of the game or mods and texture packs available for it. At least one of those images is entirely my own work (such as the one depicting the pipes) save for the background behind the subject of the image.Vanessaezekowitz (talk) 20:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Please see the Minetest articles history regarding image deletions. This is a discussion mainly based around the articles deletion for not being notable, So if you would like to make a policy comment to support your keep comment, that would be welcomed. If not, The closing admin may not take your comment in as most AfD comments needs to be backed up by Policy. John F. Lewis (talk) 20:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

The supposedly-offending images have been replaced with ones I can guarantee are free. Vanessaezekowitz (talk) 21:15, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Keep - More sources can be found on the internet. For example, the Russian site Linux.org.ru has written about Minetest on at least two occasions, gaining a good bunch of interest: https://www.linux.org.ru/news/games/6984308 https://www.linux.org.ru/news/games/8027529 Also various official distro repositories could be noted, like http://packages.debian.org/unstable/main/minetest and https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/minetest Celeron55 (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2012 (UTC) — celeron55 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'll mention that merely being listed in a distro respository does not confer notability, but the first link from linux.org could merit some consideration, but I haven't analyzed it enough. --MuZemike 20:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

They all look unusable towards meeting the WP:GNG. The first two look like they link to forum posts, while the second two look more like database entries that do little more than show it exists... Sergecross73 msg me 05:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

As the post states: the first two are from a known Russian News-site and the later two prove that the two greatest Linux-distributions (Fedora and Ubuntu) support this game by including it in their packet-archives

• Keep - Looks like the poor deletionists/Minecraft fanboys are getting angry. The article has enough sources (if you want, I can point to several [read: thousands] articles which have almost zero references/sources); the page has enough content and it has encyclopedic value, like the dozens of articles about FOSS games. Calinou1 (talk) 21:03, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

1. I have not decided in this AfD whether or not to keep or delete.
2. I have never played Minecraft before.
3. Knock it off with the attacks; I did not say one thing that was disparaging to anybody here.

--MuZemike 21:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Keep - Minetest appears to have a large community, and despite it not getting written about very often I find it suprising that they have 75 people on their main IRC channel alone. Considering that there are 2,904 registered minetest users in their forums at this point in time, I'd tend to think at the very least that they are large enough to update & maintain a wiki article, and if anything they are more notable due to the community they have built when compared to many other articles I have seen survive a speedy deletion. Danry25 (talk) 21:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - There are many, many, many sites with 2,904+ registered users but this doesn't establish WP:N. The article has no coverage whatsoever in WP:RS and fails WP:GNG since created. The sources used are either primary sources, that is, the subpages from the website of Minetest or are from secondary sources, from which I won't consider two reliable. The article is majorly unsourced since long time and I've always failed to find any source for them. The bottom line is; the article fails WP:GNG as the article is dependent on associated sources and mostly, it it unsourced. On the other hand, there is nothing notable about the game nor has the game received any reviews or awards or any controversy that would make the subject notable. I cannot find a single fact which would make me feel that the article or the game is notable. And even the google search results and the sources used up or coming up in google search, don't give any hint of notability about the subject. Right now, it is clearly not WP:N, but in future it may get notable and can have an article. For now, it is a delete. TheSpecialUser ^TSU 22:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

•  Comment: - I'm little concerned regarding the keep votes. Vanessaezekowitz has an connection with the subject as the editor almost performed WP:EW at the article by removing maintenance tags from it. They also add up by comparing the article with Minecraft but there is no policy which states that if article A is notable then B will also be. It is just a POV. 2nd keep vote is by celeron who has no edits whatsoever but just this AFD and the username was created on the day AFD started which clearly gives me the thing that the account is intended merely to save the article rather then any other purpose. And the 3rd vote so far, I won't say much regarding it but they have been editing articles with similar topics and has a connection with the subject, plus, they doesn't seem to have understood the policy properly and are also making personal attacks. The 4th vote says that there are 2,904 users but the same implies for 1000s of other webistes and this doesn't constitute WP:N. They also state that "update & maintain a wiki article" but the subject isn't enough notable to do that as there would not be any sources available about the article other then it's own website till the game gets notable. TheSpecialUser ^TSU 22:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I removed those tags based on what I perceived as a biased opinion. As you surely have noticed, I have left them in place after that particular argument was settled.

•  Comment: - In addition to TSU comments, Vanessaezekowitz is a moderator and a contributor to the site and development. Celeron55 is a clear SPA (Single Purpose Account) and in addition he is the games creator and main developer. Calinou1 (On Minetest its Calinou) is a moderator and contributor to the development and site. All three users have a possible (If not obvious) COI. I have also tagged Celeron55 as a SPA for other editors and administrators to view the SPA in an easy to see way. Note, I viewed the site to see all four contributors relation. I found three editors have connections and one does not. John F. Lewis (talk) 22:53, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I can't say I appreciate the suggestion that anyone commenting on this AfD entry is expressing a conflict of interest, but as I can only speak for myself, I am compelled to point out that every edit I have ever made to a Wikipedia article is done with the intent of being neutral and of improving the overall state of the site's content (though the current argument might seem to diverge from that). Any bias I might have stays squarely on my side of the keyboard. Second, you are in violation of both WP:AGF and the very WP:COI you cited (namely, by not even discussing the purported conflict with any of us before bringing it up here, and by stating your allegations in such a way as to make the three of us look like we're in the wrong). Vanessaezekowitz (talk) 23:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

May you please point out how I am in violation of WP:AGF and WP:COI. John F. Lewis (talk) 23:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

From WP:COI in the "How to Handle" section, "The first approach should be direct discussion of the issue with the editor, referring to this guideline. If persuasion fails, consider whether you are involved in a content dispute. If so, an early recourse to dispute resolution may help. Another option is to initiate discussion at WP:COIN, where experienced editors may be able to help you resolve the matter without recourse to publishing assertions and accusations on Wikipedia. Using COI allegations to harass an editor or to gain the upper hand in a content dispute is prohibited, and can result in a block or ban."

From the first paragraph of WP:AGF, "Assuming good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. It is the assumption that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith. Most people try to help the project, not hurt it. [...] When disagreement occurs, try to the best of your ability to explain and resolve the problem, not cause more conflict, and so give others the opportunity to reply in kind. " By claiming conflict of interest where there is none, you are from my point of view also failing to assume good faith.

Furthermore, as you know, WP:IAR (namely in the article linked there describing what it does and doesn't mean) makes it plain as day that Wikipedia's rules are meant to be ignored if they hinder the improvement of Wikipedia, plus WP:5P makes it abundantly clear that Wikipedia's "rules" aren't so much rules as guidelines, and that they can sometimes fail at their purpose; that their intent is more important than their literal meanings.

Vanessaezekowitz (talk) 23:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

This is really a concern to be addressed else where and not at a AfD discussion. To your response, I am not the only editor who says or express concern over COI. Sergecross73 also expresses the concern below. If you most honestly do believe I am in violation of the policies and I am 'harassing' you, Then go to either WP:AN or WP:Dispute and I will be more than happy to co-operate, As I do not believe I am in violation of the rules. Also please do not reply to this, rather address it to one of those two links or my talk page as this is not relative to the AfD discussion. John F. Lewis (talk) 23:47, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

You have definitely not acted out of line. You just did your homework on them, and now Vanessa's trying to turn it back on you because she seems to have no other defense. If she's a mod/contributor for something related to the article topic, then there's a conflict of interest, regardless of intentions. Sergecross73 msg me 23:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Almost every editor to the article has a connection to Minetest. So a COI is present apart from editors conduction Maintenance, Corrections and removal of deleted images. John F. Lewis (talk) 00:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

I do edit wikipedia at times; for example this was my edit two days ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Polynomial_code&diff=511191943&oldid=409018374 - just created this account to give you some handle to point at me, and to not falsely hide my identity, which'd been kind of not appropriate in this case for obvious reasons. I was actually surprised to find out I didn't have an existing account. Anyway, I will not start to build any kind of wikipedia fame for this account as long as wikipedia allows me to edit things without it. Celeron55 (talk) 05:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Delete - No coverage in third party, reliable sources. Fails the WP:GNG. So far all the keep votes are invalid. Number of users, or it's competitors, do not establish notability on Wikipedia, and the sources so far don't qualify as "reliable" as far as Wikipedia goes. I too see concerns of WP:COI and WP:SPA as well... Sergecross73 msg me 23:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - How are the keep votes invalid? Please elaborate. Wei2912 (talk) 10:04, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - Then, the Minecraft page should be deleted too; let's delete all the pages because they were all written by evil corporates. Calinou1 (talk) 11:06, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Keep - I'm not sure where others are searching, but I'm finding a large number of references to this application across the Internet. It seems that some are preferring deletion simply because it is similar to a more popular application. Qaddosh|_contribs^talk 03:46, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - Can you provide some links to these sources? I haven't seen any yet. Keep in mind, they have to comply with WP:RS, WP:IRS, and "significant coverage". Sergecross73 msg me 04:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

•  Comment: - Also, by the logic that 'just because Minecraft is notable...' then would that not mean that Minicraft is not notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia? Qaddosh|_contribs^talk 04:11, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Minecraft is notable because it has coverage in multiple, reliable sources, making it meet the WP:GNG. There are an endless supply of articles from websites like IGN or Eurogamer that easily make it notable. The same can't be said about "Minetest", as far as I've seen so far... Sergecross73 msg me 04:39, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Where in the above comment did I mention Minecraft beyond quoting a comment? And 'as far as I've seen so far'? Does that mean something is less true because you have not seen it? Qaddosh|_contribs^talk 12:10, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - User:Qaddosh also has a conflict of interest, as he is a member of the game's forum and discussing there that he's "doing what (he) can" at this AFD. See http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2876 Sergecross73 msg me 05:09, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Confirmed, His account is here and is used actively. John F. Lewis (talk) 10:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

The concept of "Conflict of interest" is false already. It's like if you told total computer newbies to package some random software for a Linux distribution. If every article was created, edited and maintained by random out-of-the-community people, Wikipedia's quality would certainly be inferior -- I suggest reading the whole article; it is perfectly neutral, thus there is no COI. Calinou1 (talk) 12:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Keep - There is no problem at all with the article. Sources are reliable (as of now), there is no copyright violation. What is more, you should know that just because something is not notable does not mean it should be deleted. Please, read this: Wikipedia:Deletion_policy - in where do you see that something which is not notable should be deleted? Some quotes:

If the page can be improved, this should be solved through regular editing, rather than deletion. Vandalism to a page's content can be reverted by any user.

A variety of tags can be added to articles to note the problem

These are alternatives that should be used to solve this problem. Wei2912 (talk) 09:49, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• It seems that this article conflicts with my statement about notability: Wikipedia:Notability#Articles_not_satisfying_the_notability_guidelines. Please take a look - you can see clearly that "For articles of unclear notability, deletion should be a last resort." Also, "If appropriate sources cannot be found after a good-faith search for them" - we have already found a few notable sources. If you regard these sources as of "unclear notability", deletion will remain as a last resort. Unless you can prove outright that those sources are not notable, the page shouldn't be deleted.Wei2912 (talk) 09:59, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - All those COI-s seem to be quite pointless to me, as you just declare everyone having anything to do with Minetest having a COI. As the Game is Open-source and extendable by mods its only natural that even the average player has extended/contirbuted to Minetest in some way. So if you want to delete the article about Minetest, delete every article about Open-source-products, too. and by the way: Of course i have a COI, too, i like the Game.
• Keep - I agree that this page should be kept, there are thousands of other pages without citations. I have not had enough time to develop this page recently, but this page is still much better than most wikipedia articles. --Rubenwardy (talk) 11:44, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

— Note to closing admin: Rubenwardy (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD. John F. Lewis (talk) 11:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

•  Comment: - By the same logic that Sergecross73 applies to COI, then all of his edits regarding Sonic & Knuckles should be undone. He clearly has a conflict of interest regarding those edits as seen here and here. Minetest 0.2 was featured in LinuxFormat magazine as seen here and here. The top of this very page states to remember to assume good faith. Both Sergecross73 and John F. Lewis are cherry-picking which policies they think should be followed. Qaddosh|_contribs^talk 12:03, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Raised once, Raised again. Care to elaborate on your accusations? John F. Lewis (talk) 12:05, 9 September 2012 (UTC)