User talk:Wimvandorst/archive02

Userbox for WP:Chem

Hi Wim,

Yes, that looks fine, thanks! Today I saw a similar one for WP Tropical Cyclones here, so this may be a trend! I'm not big on userboxes, but I'll leave that one up. BTW, I think our "lack of progress" in the last month may well be due partly to lack of new assessment, we should probably re-assess our whole worklist soon. Thanks, Walkerma 23:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Ethylene

Yes, you are right, of course - the remarks about ethylene are a bit off topic. But the way the article on Ethane was (and now, once again, is) the inexperienced reader (perhaps a young student) will wonder why there is this "prominent importance." She or he may figure - why bother to click on Ethylene - I will again be told it is important but have to look further. If you say "prominent importance" you might at least mention "used in plastics" or something. Most of the people who click on Ethane are not going to be chemists. They want quick answers. Carrionluggage 22:31, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

• The introtext should be concise. How about this? Wim van Dorst 20:57, 26 January 2006 (UTC).

Chemistrees

Hi Wim,

I wanted to ask for your (& PC's) opinion. My work on WP1.0 has got me interested in how articles are "arranged" in a hierarchy, since we need to work out a set of articles to put in 1.0. On Wikipedia we currently have categories, but I personally find these very "clunky" and it's hard to see the bigger picture. There is (in some obscure corner of Wikipedia) a way of expanding these in a "tree" format using a script from de, but this is only a little better IMHO. We have a few nice boxes like Template:PeriodicTablesFooter, but these are rare and usually only cover major topics. Over the last month or so I have been experimenting a bit with what I call a tree, and although it's technically very crude (like most things I do!) I do like the basic idea. I wanted to get your thoughts on the basic concept and, if you like it, how it might be improved. There are some symbols I'm using, ↓ means go one level down (↑ to go up), @ means go to the article, = means go to the list and © means go to the category. I have a few test pages, these don't have every link done yet, but you can go all the way through to iron(III) oxide (or any other oxide up to SeO₂). Can you try looking up an oxide starting here, and let me know what you think? Cheers, Walkerma 07:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Answer on PC's talkpage. Wim van Dorst (Talk).

Fair use images

Hi Wim. I note that you have fair use images on User:Wimvandorst/pictures. However, please note that any such images may only be used in main space articles, and not on user pages - please could you remove these? Thanks, CLW 23:13, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• I hope blanks links to my uploaded images is ok? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

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Talk page for structure drawing workgroup

Hi Wim, I hope you'll forgive me, I reverted your redirect on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Chemistry/Structure drawing workgroup. I wanted to create a place where people could talk freely about the details of this topic without filling up the Chemistry talk page (I set it up as a sub-page of WP:Chemistry, since it covers 3D models, reactions etc, not just chemical compounds). I fully expect us to fill up 32 kB in a few days (6 people signed on to the group within 12 hours), and this discussion would just get in the way of general chem discussions. The analogy in my mind is Wikipedia talk:Chemical infobox. What I propose is that when everything is complete we can make sure the archive listings include links to these discussions, is that OK? Good news about stub listings, btw, thanks for reassessing. Walkerma 06:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• Assuming that you have my pages on your watchlist, I'll simply answer here: Of course I agree with your making a better dedicated talk page out of it. As an interested person, I did read the discussions sofar, and may perhaps even contribute some opinion of my own (e.g., butting in with my being colourblind and not able to make the distinction between emerald and beige for instance). And as an inorganics persons, I thought I better not join just yet. If the success of this workgroup is comparable to the chembox, then IMHO you're on a winner. Good luck. (PS. ACS still doesn't show the podcast of your presentation, or am I looking in the wrong place?). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 12:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC).

By the way, I'm in the US Eastern time zone, but "Daylight Savings Time started recently", so I think we are one hour ahead of usual. Either that or I'm stranded in the Bermuda Triangle! Thanks for your understanding over the talk page, feel free to add comments even if you're not an active participant. Yesterday I got a request for a bio to add to the podcast, so they will have that up soon, I'll post it on WP:Chemistry when it's up.

• Boston Mass is normally at GMT-5, and now with summertime is GMT-4. As is the normal time in Bermuda as well. So, you can't be lost in the Bermuda triangle (I had already checked such an obvious place ;-). I'll be looking forward to ACS's activities here. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 17:13, 11 April 2006 (UTC).

Thanks, you're right, I just got confused! I think it was 3am local time when I made the post! Walkerma 20:00, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

boron trichloride

The boron compounds are both oxigen variations, ignoring the also important halides, which would als make a good part in the list! So I adde something to it to get it to a better standard! With the other worksites I will continue when there is more time. First I have to start my new job!--Stone 18:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Lead nitrate

I couldnt con anyone into doing this stub, it's now a nice start. I wouldnt have known that few Pb(II) species are water soluble. Sometime in the far future, it would be nice to have a "bot" insert Ksp's for some of these simple species. My class is now finishing so you should be able to find some former stubs that could be upgraded after polishing by a chemist: Carbonyldiimidazole, Copper(I) iodide, Dicyclohexylcarbodiimide, dimethyl sulfate, guanine, Imidazole, isoquinoline, Magnesium carbonate, Mercury(I) chloride, Osmium tetroxide, Perrhenic acid, Silver bromide, Sodium pertechnetate, Tantalum(V) chloride, uracil, Yttrium barium copper oxide. Also the following have been tweaked bromoethane and Gadolinium trichloride. I wonder why diethyl sulfate and dimethyl sulfate separately made the work list. Best wishes,--Smokefoot 20:11, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

• Very nice work, Smokefoot. Compliments to your students (and yourself I see). All these articles have all definitely grown from Stub to Start level and quite some directly to B-Class level. The bromoethane article was meeting old friends, as I myself created that last year to Stub level and quite lost track of it. I have now assessed all these articles and adjusted the notation in the WP:Chem worklist accordingly. This gives a nice dent in the Stubs-group! Thanks. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:15, 10 May 2006 (UTC).

WP1.0 listings

Hi. I have a question at User_talk:Mathbot/WP1.0#May I request an enhancement. Thanks. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 03:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Good Article

Thanks for making Eagle Scout rank (Boy Scouts of America) a Good Article. A lot of work has gone into it and we're glad you like it. I'm the coordinator of the Scouting WikiProject. Maybe we'll try to make it an FA next. I think you may be from Holland. Lovely country. I lived there when I was 11-12 years old (a long time ago!). Yours in Scouting, Randy Rlevse 10:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

• A LOT of work has been done on this article this week as we prepare it for a per review and then FAC submission. If you're not watching it, you may want to. Thanks again. Rlevse 10:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Wim: thanks for your help on this, you've made some fine contributions and I hope to work with you more. But we did have to make one factual correction: Scouting is not fully coed in the USA, so females can not earn the Eagle rank. In the USA, girls earn what is called the Gold Award, the equivalent of Eagle Scout in the Girl Scouts organization. Rlevse 15:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Eagle Scout Peer Review

Ed and Wim: I'm going to list the Eagle Scout article for a formal peer review in a few moments in the hope in about 2 weeks to list it as a FAC. Based on my experience with other FACs and one of my own successful FAs, I think there are two things people may object to: a) is the lead long enough? and b) are there too many lists? Please think these issues over. Thanks for all the help, Randy. YIS, Rlevse 11:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Wim: As you're a Crown Scout and already such a great contributor to the Scouting Project, why don't you add your name to our member list (on the Scouting Project page where the new articles are at, but more in the middle of the page)? Yours in Scouting (YIS), Rlevse 23:47, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Rlevse. Thanks for the invitation, but I'm already involved in the Chemicals wikiproject. When that one will be finished, then I can always still join the Scouting wikiproject. But I hope contributing is allowed nonetheless ;-). 21:34, 29 May 2006 (UTC).

"Importance"

Wim,

You left an edit comment with HCl in the table suggesting that you were unclear on how to judge this. I would ask you to judge importance in terms of WP:Chem, don't try to judge it for WP1.0. As chemicals go, I would put hydrochloric acid as "Top-Class" myself, I would put it in my top 50 (maybe even top 20) most important chemicals (note that the CD release of 2000 articles from the whole of Wikipedia included it). If you think it's ranked more like #157, then by all means put it as "High-Class," if it's more like #532 then it's probably "Mid-Class" and below #1000 it's probably "Low-Class". When we look at whether or not to include any given article in a WP:1.0 release, we will judge based on the importance of the subject area (here chemicals, so it's incredibly high of course!!) and the importance of the article within the subject area/wikiproject. Thus a high-class chemistry article may take precedence over a top-class article from the KLF microproject. Thanks also for all your help tagging these! I'm amazed, though, the military history folks started tagging after us, and they've already tagged 2000 articles, quite amazing! Hope this helps, if you need more elaboration let me know, Walkerma 16:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks, Martin. I'd think that such an approach would be workable. And what amazes me most is that they have found seven thousand articles on Mil Hist. I wonder whether we would be able to find 7000 articles on chemicals. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC).

NFPA 704

I will not be adding the NFPA 704 images to IMD. I thought that since we have an NFPA 704 template, the images would be pointless. Thanks for proving me wrong. :) --Evan Robidoux 19:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Evan, You're welcome to my support for that ;-). I hope my information was presented suffiently friendly. At least it was intended that way. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC).

Crown patch

Hi, WVD: added a Scouting stub to it. Thanks V. Joe 22:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Fully correct. You're quick! Thanks for your help. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC).
  • Wim: are you sure Crown Scout is a merit badge vice a rank? Rlevse 22:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • As far as I'm aware, both in Dutch scouting but also in English scouting there isn't much about ranks. It is all earning a badge. Ranking is only wrt patrol leaders, troopleader, etc. I chose the wording of 'Crown Scout merit badge' intentionally, indeed to differ from the BSA approach. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC).
  • PS: Please consider formally joining the Scouting Project. Rlevse
    • Thanks for inviting me again, but no thanks. I'm merely enjoying myself with just the Baden-Powell House article (and some editing to the eagle scout thing thrown in), but I would like to focus on WP:Chem. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC).
  • PPS: I added Crown Scout to the new Scouting articles list on the project page. Rlevse 02:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Thanks. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC).
  • No problem, just glad you've been so helpful. Rlevse 15:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Adding the {{WPCD}} template as recommendation for CD

Which CD publication? {{WPCD}} is for a specific CD already released. You might want to nominate it for Wikipedia:Version 0.5 or Wikipedia:Version 1.0. 0.5 is currently open for nominations (and hydrochloric acid has already been accepted), but 1.0 won't be ready for some time. --Rory096 19:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I see {{WPCD}} is now being used as a way to make something a candidate for the next CD by Bozmo. I'll put the tag back on. --Rory096 19:07, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Articles noticed and unnoticed

Wim: It amazes me that articles like this: Karl Wilhelm Gottlob Kastner, where it only says he was a professor and doesn't mention awards, can stay for almost two years but Dipics wants to pounce on Haddoch within an hour. There are lots of articles like Kastner, many in even poorer shape than his. Someone just happened to notice Haddoch--that's all this boils down to. Oh well-;). Rlevse 20:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Baden-Powell House

See talk input by User:Lincher on the talkpage and email I sent you. Rlevse 14:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wim, I've done a copyedit on the article, please can you check that the facts are still totally correct. Did I interpret the meaning of "current days" correctly, or is "Current Days" a scouting term (it's not a phrase I've ever heard before). Walkerma 23:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Re:Can I use your peerreviewer script? And how?

Yes of course you can! On your monobook.js page (User:Wimvandorst/monobook.js) add {{subst:js|User:AndyZ/peerreviewer.js}}. After saving, you have to bypass your browser's cache to see the changes. Mozilla/Safari: hold down Shift while clicking Reload (or press Ctrl-Shift-R), IE: press Ctrl-F5, Opera/Konqueror: press F5. While in editing mode, look at the "log out" link in your personal bar and there should be a "peer review" link right next to it; click on it and the suggestions will spring up (in template form, though). Andy _t 20:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing it out; IE seems to just ignore the problem. I (hope at least) fixed it. Andy _t 00:15, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

javascript:if(km.test(theText) || mi.test(theText) || ft.test(theText) || yd.test(theText) || cm.test(theText) || nm.test(theText) || inch.test(theText) || dm.test(theText) || lb.test(theText) || ton.test(theText) || gram.test(theText) || mton.test(theText)){alert("yes")}

• The nbsp comment drove me crazy once also (along w/ the spelling of units) because they kept appearing when it was obvious there were no units; since then I think I've cleared up most of the problems. Chances are it is being thrown off by either "# in" or "# gram". If you type the above into your URL bar after you execute the peer review, it should give you an alert saying yes; from there you can slowly use elimination to determine which one is setting off the problem. (like slowly making it smaller to javascript:if(km.test(theText) || mi.test(theText) || ft.test(theText)){alert("yes")}. Andy _t 13:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • GOT it! Indeed an 'in 1994 in someplace bla' text. Thanks for helping me out. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 16:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC).

• I caught the small alphabetizing error; rather than split it to two lines, I'll probably fix it to specify if it was cats, ils, or both. As for the bullet layout, the bullets were there originally to make them distinct from the PR nomination information. Now that my suggestions are poured into WP:PR/A, your layout does look better - thanks for the suggestions! Andy _t 00:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Scouting rating system

I see you already noticed I started a rating system and you obviously are familiar with it from the Chemistry project. Cool. I hope you don't mind I volunteered you to answer questions on the announcements page. If you know someone who knows how to set up the automatic statistics, could you ask them to help? Rlevse 23:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

• Did that, on Oleg's talkpage. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
• Just a few small changes on your categories tree, and now it should work. We'll see in this night's run. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC).
• Wim, thanks for putting tweaks on the setup and asking Oleg to add us (glad you knew what to do). I left this on his talk page: "::*Oleg, I am the coordinator of the Scouting Project. Thanks so much for finishing this setup. What you've done here with the automatic, sorting, logs, etc is truly impressive. Many thanks." Many thanks to you too. Even if you didn't join the Scouting Project, I consider you a defacto member. Sorry about your FAC. My first FAC (on MB history) failed after 3 days, but I worked on it and it eventually made FA. Rlevse 11:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Hi Randy, good to give a kind response to Oleg. And thanks for your kind words. I already have written other articles to FA status, e.g., hydrochloric acid so I'm not new to the process. But it is a pity that the peerreview process doesn't come out usable. The script answers are useful, but it can give a technical answer only and not interpretative knowledge. We'll now have some good and interesting items to work. Perhaps I'll even have to go to BP House again: it has been a while since I was there last time. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:06, 6 July 2006 (UTC).

Re: Please include the Scouting Wikiproject

I replied on my talk page, to keep the conversation in one place. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 20:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Baden-Powell House

I'm sure with some more research etc. it will make it next time, I searched today for the name of the architect but couldn't find it anywhere. I only noticed it had already failed after I expanded the architecture section, revert if you don't like. It does need some better images from various angles, and a little more about what goes on there; but it will always be a difficult subject to FAC Giano | talk 18:19, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The architecture is indisputable fact for that particular style of modern architecture, take a look at the links and you will see what I mean. Failing that you can liken it to a Britisj telephone exchange! I see the painting of Baden-Powell has re-appeared - believe me it is superfluous there is am image of him in a badge, his image is in the statue, a further painting is entering the realms of self indulgence this is page is about a building not Baden-Powell himself, it is not his mausoleum. It is picture of the building which are needed. Giano | talk 21:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for elucidating on the architecture text. I'll use it unreferenced then. The painting is famous in scouting, and its presence in the Baden-Powell is pivotal to the collection. Hence my re-inclusion: it is not 'a picture of BP' but a 'notable painting by Jagger, mainpiece of the collection'. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC).

Then, if I were you I would expand hugely on not just the painting but the rest of the collection housed there, have a whole section on it, and its importance to the scouting movement. Giano | talk 08:33, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

FAC

Wim: I just got back from being gone over a week. I should get to the FAC tonight or Monday. Rlevse 21:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

PR output on Thai King

Thanks Wim, I'll get to this over the next day or two. You must be watching my edits or something. Rlevse 21:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

• No, not your edits, but your user talk:Rlevse page is on my watchlist (after adding something and too lazy to remove). And there it showed something totally un-understandable Boomibool or something, and that tickeled my interest. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Cool, my wife is Thai so I have interest in Thai stuff and the king just got the Bronze Wolf, so that is how this round started. Could you run the PR script on Scouting? I just nominated it for GA. Rlevse 21:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Tetrasulfur tetranitride

I saw this on WP:GAC and it doesn't have a chem project tag. It may be GA, but there are lots of formulas and you are more qualified.Rlevse 21:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

GA hold, on Scouting

Wim, in case you are not aware, GA nominations can only be on hold for 7 days. Please fix your concerns by then as I'd prefer not to relist it. If I can be of any help at all on this, let me know. Rlevse 23:44, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Randy, I'm not planning any editing of Scouting myself at present. The whole idea is that an independent person, not significantly involved in the editing of the article or the WikiProject, is to give ithe verdict of GA or not. As I put it on-hold, that would be me. The improvement recommendations are for the person(s) who nominated the article and thus have taken the responsibility of responding to the recommendations. That would be you: segragation of duties. So, as indeed there are only seven days of on-hold, your active support is eagerly expected. (PS Be Bold, there's quite some change needed). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 14:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC).

I know, but the ideas are yours, not mine, so I don't know exactly what you want. You could edit it and then let someone else decide on the GA status, or tell us in more detail what you want. Rlevse 14:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• The details of the needed improvements are mentioned on the talk:Scouting page. If I could spare the time now, I would indeed help you out. The recommendations are not mine only, as they are explicitly supported by another user. Are they not clear enough? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 15:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC).

I'd dont' mind making the updates, but more detail would be appreciated. For instance, saying including the Scout method is a start but what else are you looking for? I just don't have a warm fuzzy on what you're looking for. Rlevse 15:15, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I did lots of work as I understood what you and Jergen wanted. Most of it on Scout method, which was a major good idea. I think perhaps the uniform section should be a subsection of the Scout method section? I did little to the breakaway part because I think that's historicaly important. Let me know if you have more thoughts. Rlevse 17:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

World Cup

Yep, we won! Thanks for the message - It was a thrilling time, a highlight of my life, and BP House is not looking too bad either ;>) Giano | talk 19:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• Italia deserved it, this time. Next time, we'll win again ;-). Would you care to add anything to Baden-Powell House, or is it now FA-ready? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC).

Of course you will, I have no doubt. BPH is looking good too, I'll try and find some further refs for the architecture section tomorrow - to be honest I'm stll not sure (IMO) it is FA standard - but as I have edited it I can't vote, can I? So best of luck with it - let me add those refs first though! Regards Giano | talk 21:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'll be looking forward to the refs. They'll nicely wrap up the architecture section, IMHO. And sure you can vote on an article to which you contributed some 10 edits out of the 300 or so. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC).

Baden-Powell House

It has been edited significantly since I proposed it for FA two weeks ago. Feel free to provide recommendations of further improvements. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC).

Very substantial improvement. I'll make some more detailed comments in the near future. Af the moment I am CFRing "Scouting in the UK" to "Scouting in the United Kingdom" in line with a recent consensus on WP:CFD to expand country initialisms like U.S. and U.K. but hopefully that will qualify as a "speedy". TheGrappler 21:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

It is now much better, bit still need a wrapping up - concluding section, at the moment it ends far too abruptly - perhaps a final section on mentioning haow many stay there. modern adiministration - finances (or lack of finances) that sort of thing, to bring the whole thing right up to date, and conclude the story. Giano | talk 20:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• The intention is to have exactly that in the section on Part of The Scout Association, but apparently that isn't obvious. Would another section title help? Or moving the section to the end? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 06:26, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

I just feel the page need a satisfying concluding section which it does not at the moment have, perhaps the modern refit and a few final facts pabout the house topday could be shuffled about to create such a section, just a couple of paragraphs will do - you know waffle a bit about the importance of the place to the modern scouting movement, the role it plays today etc etc etc. I had no idea poor of old Monsieur Le Corbusier was Swiss - one learns something new every day here! Giano | talk 09:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• All the info you mention is already in the Scout Association section. I now switched them around (and retitled it a bit: you'll see), to give the article the suggested wrap-up. It this what you propose? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 19:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

• Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I've just changed the headers a little (quite bit actually, revert if you want) I think the others were too long. To my eyes the page is now vastly improved - I stll think it lacks oomph! - but we shall see - other people seldom agree with me, so it will probably pass this time - I certainly won't hinder it! Giano | talk 22:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Much better! I saw these (maybe you can have one more run-through, and then ask Tony to look again):

• Afterwards, after which the Queen toured the house with the Chief Scout and the president of The Scout Association, Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, her uncle.
• There's some inconsistency throughout with respect to italics. At the top of the article, I find Last Message to Scouts is not italicized, but later I find a sentence with several words italicized: Since Baden-Powell House was intended as a tribute to Baden-Powell, a notable collection of Baden-Powell memorabilia has always been on display for visitors in The story of B-P exhibition. This includes many drawings and letters by Baden-Powell himself, such as the original of his Last Message to Scouts, Laws for me when I am old and several first editions of his books. I'm not sure which is correct, but they should be consistent. (I find all of the capitalized words distracting, but nothing can be done about that :-)

Please leave me another message when you've been through it, and I'll be glad to update my vote: nice work. Sandy 10:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me know. My house was hit by lightening, and I'm having technical difficulties still, so ring twice if you get lost in the shuffle. Sandy 22:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I did half an hour ago. It is number 48 on your talk page. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC).

CONGRATS, it's FA now!Rlevse 23:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the surprise!

Thank you for stopping by and wishing me happy birthday. It didn't occur to me that I would be receiving such a positive responce for creating the Scouting user templates category. (If that is how you found me, and by the articles you have edited, I think so.) :)
—Lady Aleena talk/contribs 20:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yep, that's how I came by, and read your biography. And realized that it is (nearly) today that is your Birthday. Best wishes. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC).

Infobox

I've increased the size of the image in the Infobox. Please let me know if this is ok for you now. --Mcginnly 07:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• We might well be able to increase the width to that of the table (on my monitor it actually looks like this), but it's beyond my limited coding skill. If you could find someone to do it that would be great for everyone.--Mcginnly 10:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Chemistry project

Your chemsitry project may want to put project tags on Dudley R. Herschbach and Peter Agre. Both are Eagle Scouts and Nobel Chemistry Prize laurettes.

• Thanks, Randy. Done. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:19, 14 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Nobel prizes only get you a mid-rating? Interesting. Rlevse 23:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
    • No, Dutch Nobel prizes get Top, of course, but US ones... Well, what can one do? ;-) Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:23, 14 July 2006 (UTC).

Chemical substances

Hi Wim (of mag ik 'goedenavond Wim', zeggen),

I know you are very busy assessing the quality of many chemical substance pages, so I hope that you know an answer to my question. Lately I have been going through a fair number (approx. 2400) of chemical substances, cleaning up links to chemical suppliers etc., and adding a link to the Wikipedia:Chemical sources page to them. During that sweep, I saw many pages which are way below level (to say the least, but well, they at least exist, they will expand in time, I hope), but, more important, also many that were not categorised. I am now running an WP:AWB sweep through all the pages that I added the ChemicalSources template to, and adding at least one category to them. But do you know tricks to find as many 'chemical substance pages' as possible? Up till now there seems to be no existence of a 'clean' category that only contains (pure, identified) chemical substances (e.g. the category:organic compounds contains also other pages, related to organic compounds, e.g. functional group), let alone that there are (nearly) complete lists of chemical substances. The list of organic compounds and the same have a list of substances, but well, far from complete, I guess. Any idea's?

Met vriendelijke groet, --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 21:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Hallo Dirk, goedenavond, indeed we could follow one of several languages (NL/DE/FR/SE) but they will flummox the general visitor to this talk page, so we'd better not.

To put the word out: there is no list of all chemicals in wikipedia. Latest estimate that I recall is some 2 to 3000 with your 2400, I'd say you have a reasonable coverage. The most reliable two lists are list of inorganic compounds and list of organic compounds, which I recall were given a good once-over by Martin Walker, and may IMHO be considered Best in Class. For the WP:Chem, we took a totally different stand: we decided to define a limited goal which is doable within a certain time constraint. As you can see in the project's statistics we have improved the most important chemicals from a low class or even 20% non-existant to now 90% Start-Class or better. It was here that the classification system was designed, btw. And this worklist already contains all of the Top-importance class articles too, even when the importance wasn't even thought about. So, I can't give you a more comprehensive list or category, but I can give you the top of that very very long list. Succes with your work. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC). Hi Wim, too bad. I was only looking for a list that would be clean (I know, complete is a different question). I will just add the ChemicalSources template to pages about 'defined chemical substances' that I encounter, and in that way keep a quite complete record (can always use the 'what links here' to the template to get a complete list). But thanks for the answer! Keep up the good work! --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 21:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

List of Eagle Scouts

Would you take a look at User:Gadget850/Sandbox2 and see if you still have the issue with table widths? --Gadget850 ( Ed) 17:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Same Scout Center (that's with an 'er'

Wim: These articles are on the same place. The photo and text in Hong Kong Scout Centre show Baden-Powell International House is only a part of the whole center. I'm putting merge tags on them. Rlevse 22:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• No, don't be so quick. Just read the new article I'm writing now! Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC).
  • I didn't notice it was yours, so I'll undo. But I don't see how they're so different at this point.Rlevse 22:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • The BP International is a huge standalone hotel, and has nearly nothing to do with Scouting. It is a commercial venue, creating revenus. And the Scout Centre is the real headquarters, located in the off-side buildings. Give a few days (weeks?) and it'll show. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC).

OK. In the meantime, can you give me some ideas on what you feel Scouting needs to be A-class and I'll work on it. As it's our grandaddy overview article, I want to get it to FA. Rlevse 22:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• It's on its talkpage. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC).

Tony

Tony removed his FAC objection, which he rarely does, congrats! Suggest you take the "The" out of that 21st Century section heading or rename it to "Future" or something similar. Rlevse 02:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Your kind correction

Hi there

Thanks for correcting my mistake in my 2a article. What a klutz I am. Tony 09:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• As you have provided a valuable support to my B-P House article, you're highly welcome to my humble edits. And finding silly typos in your text are for getting revenge on your finding still (after all my meticulous re-re-reading) a double word (price price) in my BP House article. (just kidding :-).
  • Ps. I definitely like your 2a-article. It was very useful advice. Please keep on.
  • pps. I couldn't help reading, under the B-P House header on your and Sandy's talkpages, your appreciation of my responsiveness to you IMHO very useful feedback. It was definitely my pleasure. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 13:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC).

Same building

Wim, see Wood Badge, in the 4th paragraph, it says "Baden Powell Building". Is this the same as Baden-Powell House? Rlevse 11:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• hi Randy, Although it is definitely sure that the only Baden-Powell building in London is Baden-Powell House, I have insufficient data to confirm that those beads are actually in its collection. Considering the importance of beads as well as collection, this does ring true. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 12:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Good enough for me, I'll change it. We'll let someone disprove otherwise.Rlevse 12:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
    • When Baden-Powell House has become FA (eventually), how about a meeting there for corroboration of the facts? Are you rich enough to pay for a weekend trip for both our families? And if you are really wealthy, you may throw in an invitation to Tony, Sandy, Giano, and TheGrappler as well ;-). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 12:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC).

Congratulations on Baden-Powell House

Congratulations on Baden-Powell House reaching FA status. Would it be possible to include the Longitude and latitude of the building using a template such as {{coor title dms}} so that it can link to Google earth etc? --Mcginnly | Natter 13:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for your kind words. And the coord are up. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC).

Wim, that is so very very kind and thoughtful of you :-) As you can see, one gets a bit beaten up on FAC, and it's very nice when the work is appreciated :-) Now, who is this person inviting us all to where in the section above? I could use a nice vacation :-) Congratulations on a fine job!! Sandy 20:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• The invitor is Randy, of the Scouting WikiProject. Unfortunately, he hasn't confirmed the invitation yet ;-). And the meeting place will of course be Baden-Powell House in London. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC).
  • Now I'm going to have to visit ! Sandy 21:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Gosh! thanks for the barnstar, I've never had a scouting badge before. Pleased to see it passed, look forward to seeing it on the main page Giano | talk 21:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• I'm glad you introduced the starting parts of the architecture section, so you well earned your badge. And I'll have it proposed for home page soon. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:46, 22 July 2006 (UTC).

• This may be a little late but I would like to offer my own congratulations as well. TheGrappler 23:54, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Interlanguage links sorting order

An even later congratulations for getting Baden-Powell House to FA status. It should be possible to make it work based upon local language; I'll work on that as fast as possible. AZ _t 00:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

B-P's Sexuality

It appears from discussion threads on this article that the writers question whether to include the section on B-P's sexuality at all. The discussion centers on Tim Jeal's writing on this topic in his book, THE BOY MAN (Century Hutchinson Ltd. 1989 in UK and William Morrow and Company, Inc. 1990 in US) later issued as BADEN-POWELL (published by Pimlico and then Yale). (Pardon the bibliography, but elsewhere there seemed to be some confusion about various editions of this book.)

Please consider the following:

1. Writers should be clear about what Mr. Jeal said. In reviewing the close relationship between B-P and his best friend, Kenneth "The Boy" McLaren, he concludes that it was "physically chaste". [p. 83]. He summarizes his other work with this: "I found evidence to support the morally neutral idea that he had indeed been a repressed homosexual;" [Tim Jeal, "Baden-Powell at Mafeking," in THE SIEGE OF MAFEKING, p. 226 (Johannesburg: The Brenthurst Press (Pty) Ltd., 2001)].

2. Mr. Jeal's work in the area of sexuality is not authoritative. I have never found any biographical sketch of Mr. Jeal that gives him credentials in psychiatry or psychology. He cites one serious source explaining any reason why B-P's behavior might be consistent with repressed homosexuality, Freud's CIVILIZATION AND ITS DISCONTENTS. [p. 101, fn. 98] After almost a century of extensive writing on psychology, and several decades of scholarly work on homosexuality, one would expect Mr. Jeal to present more science in support of his argument.

3. The entire field of psychohistory is debated among historians. There does not seem to be a concensus favoring it as a useful field for historical work, though it has some devoted adherents. With a few notable exceptions such as Erik Erikson and Peter Gay, both of whom studied psychoanalysis professionally, most of the proponents of psychohistory are historians, not psychiatrists or psychologists. For a summary of the case against psychohistory, see David Hackett Fischer, HISTORIANS' FALLACIES: TOWARD A LOGIC OF HISTORICAL THOUGHT (New York: Harper & Row, 1970), ch. VII.

In general, I believe Scouters are much better served by reading William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt's BADEN-POWELL: THE TWO LIVES OF A HERO. It discusses B-P's life and times, without the amateur analysis of B-P's motives. (I should mention that I am the managing trustee of the Hillcourt Trust, and proceeds from the sale of the book benefit the trust.)

Without criticizing Bill Hillcourt's book, Mr. Jeal suggests his work is superior to Hillcourt's because he is writing independent of any outside influence, such as Hillcourt's close relationship with B-P and Lady B-P (she was listed as co-author in the first edition) and his lifelong career as a professional and volunteer Scouter. [p. xi] Mr. Jeal takes the same tack in his biography of David Livingstone, pointing out that the famous missionary's other biographers had been clergymen. [LIVINGSTONE (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1973), p. xii] Since Mr. Jeal - who has written more works of fiction than history - is not obligated to B-P's family, or the Scout movement, or the academic community - it would appear that he is responsible only to his publisher and his readers. As such, we must be careful and critical.

I do not frequently read the comments to Wikipedia. If anyone would like to correspond with me on this topic, please contact me at nblock@winstead.com.

Lead Nitrate

Hello Wim,To put this in context I am researching my family particularly a branch who were manufacturing chemists in 1855-1875 in Lancashire. They were coal tar distillers and brimstone refiners. Lead Nitrate was presumably one of the products of one or both of these activities. Almost nothing re this product in chemical ref books other than use as a mordant for the dyeing trade. Other products listed zinc sulphate, copper sulphate, sulphuric acid carbolic acid, benzole.--Bostan 15:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• Yep, mordant would be the typical application at the time. And the other chemicals sound pretty old fashioned as well. Nonetheless, such research can be quite facinating. Good luck with your search. And if you happen to find interesting titbits about Pb(NO3)2 feel free to add to wikipedia. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 15:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC).

Gold Award

What is your rationale for changing Gold Award to High vice Top? They are both the highest awards in their program.Rlevse 00:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• I find the Eagle Scout overrated too: they are merely awards in a badges scheme. They are not what defines Scouting. But feel free to revert (I won't start a revert war). Personally I find way too many articles rated as 'High' too: all those 'Association of the ...': they are IMHO merely covering grounds in the wikiproject, and thus ought to be Mid. Several such as the BSA, the Scout Association, and other major ones: they ought to be high.
• Out of all articles on the wikiproject, I'd think 5% Top, 30% high, 40% Mid and 25% low. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 00:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

If I went through the ratings again, I would change several of them. A huge percentage of our articles are national associations. One problem is, is it fair to say the association of Bolivia (or whatever) is less important than that of Canada (for example)? Food for thought. Rlevse 01:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Very true: we mustn't do this just like that on an subjective basis. To get it measurable (SMART), how about taking the top 15 in size of the list of Scouting organizations for High, and the rest for Mid? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 07:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

I learned a lot about the articles we have doing this, who works what areas, ones we had that I didn't know about, found several untagged via being mentioned in a tagged one, etc. As for the national articles, they must make up 40% or so of our articles as some countries have more than one (boys, girls, defunct ones, competing ones, etc). The same problem with association articles arises with the highest awards, things like Bronze Wolf, etc. Let me mull this over. Rlevse 11:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

down to it for ratings

Let's use 900 articles as a rough average...I think for Top 5% is OK (~45 articles). For Low I think 20% is OK (~180). That leaves 675 for High and Mid. I'd say 35% High (~315) and 40% Mid (~360); making it look like this (Top to Low): 45/315/360/180. Right now it's actually 16/682/122/74. More need to go to Top (liked you moving Wood Badge there) and to Low. I don't want to do this en masse like the first round (too intensive), a slower approach will let us keep a good handle on it. Let's start with picking out a) more obvious Tops and Lows and b) the 15 countries we and to leave in High (I'd count both BSA and GSUSA for example and count it as one country). I'd also count the UK and Canada (2-4 associations) as part of the 15. That leaves 12 more choices--you pick some. Let's move this to a more appropriate spot, the assessment talk page....Rlevse 01:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

...PS seems this would be the 15 in the Scouting article.Rlevse 01:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

...I'm not so sure Neckerchief should be Top, but I'll leave it to you-;) See talk and project pages of Assessment. Rlevse 02:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

...I just added a bunch to top, there are 41 right now, about where we want it. A few more would be okay, but not too many.Rlevse 02:28, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• We need some more non-BSA focussed, so I added Herman Hui (there wasn't even an article!!), and I'm thinking which persons else to add. The neckerchief definitely stays in, and therefore probably needs quite some 'scout'ification, and I'm thinking about woggle as well. Then there are some major sites too (Kandersteg, Gilwell, BP House) which may well warrant Top too. What do you think? And I can't think of more just now. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC).

Scouting controversy

I've made a start at a controversy section. However, I know nothing about the international side of it. Right now, it's mostly the intro from the BSA controversy article. Could you copyedit and put an international flavor on it at: User:Rlevse/sandbox. I think putting the co-ed part as a subsection would be fine. Thanks. After this, I'll probably split the Scouting article and start the international Boy Scout article. Rlevse 13:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Attaboy, Randy. That's progress. I'll be going on vacation after next weekend, but it is clear that you have a summertime full of editing before. Good ideas!
• Unfortunately, (fortunately?) the whole controversy thing doesn't have an international side, as far as I know. Definitely here in Europe the mainstream Scouting does not have such controversies: we've been co-ed for ages, atheism and agnostics is absolutely a non-issue, and homosexuality is not flaundered about as being an important topic in Scouting either. Our Scouting focuses on camping, woodcraft, teamsport, etc. After I'm back (after FOUR weeks!!!), I'll sure give you a hand. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC).

Then I'll just leave it at coed in Scouting as the rest seems mostly BSA specific. You'll be gone for 4 weeks?Rlevse 22:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Jealous ;-)? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 22:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC).

Of course!Rlevse 22:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

PS I sorta know what you look like as I saw that pic you used to have on your user page, but it was a bit of a distant shot. Rlevse 22:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Herman Hui

I can agree with this bein Top, but only because he's currently in the top job. I feel we should rotate him out and the next guy in each the person in the job changes. Rlevse 18:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC) PS, every time I put an attention tag on a page, I put a reason in the talk section so people know what to work on.

• Hi Randy, yes, I agree with a rotation scheme. Fortunately, we'll have years of pleasure of a good article on him, as he'll be around till 2008. And smart thinking of the talk page notice. Although is must hit anybody straight in the face what this Top article lacks: content. I think this must be the most meagre Top-importance article that I have seen for quite a while. I was thinking about a Chief Scout article in the Top-range as well, but I can't get a good feeling about it. There's the Chief Scout (United Kingdom) article already. We may move that or so. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC).

If it's UK specific, I'd only rate it high, if it is global in nature, yes. The current Chief Scout article is UK specifc, so I'd leave it at high. Rlevse 20:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That is the point: Chief Scout was 'World' for B-P, and 'British Empire' for the next two or three, and then 'United Kingdom'. And I agree that UK-only is merely High. But perhaps we could work the article out a bit, to include also the other Chief Scouts (there's one in many Scout Associations, e.g. the well known J.J. Rambonnet as Chief Scout of the Netherlands in 1928 till 1938, and the BSA has a Chief Scout still, don't they? Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC).

For the current article, I was referring to the fact it says it only applied to the Commonwealth, at least that's the impression I get. For the BSA, yes, but I think the BSA title is called Chief Scout Executive now. If you include all countries, wouldn't it get to be a big article? as every association has a person in charge, whether they're called Chief Scout or some other title. On a side note, I just can't think of anyone but B-P in the role of Chief Scout of the World, no one has been like him since, but that's just me=;) Rlevse 20:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Boy Scouts

I've added some, trying to get it to B-class. Could you add to it for this effort and when you're done, put notes on the talk page about what's left? Rlevse 22:35, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Very nice job, I've submitted it for GA as by the time it works its way to the top, we'll be there. I'd also like to find more refs.Rlevse 23:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• If you do the required editing, I'll grant you the GA (but you know I'm picky). I'm off to bed now, as it is 01:28 in the very very unDutch-ly hot night. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 23:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC).
  • I don't mind you being picky, you're very good at article quality and that's my main overall goal for the project now, better articles. I think we have a good base and the project has greatly helped us get organized and get more editors, so my focus is quality and structure now. I'll work on this over the near future. Rlevse 23:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Assessment results

I've finished with the association and other articles importance assessments. There's a bulge at Mid (see after bot runs our use cats to count up)--wherever we put the bulk of the association articles will have a bulge. I do not want to put very tiny countries (ie, Lesotho) into Low. I am also comfortable with how we grouped them for ratings on importance. Top and High are right about where we wanted. Unless you have a strong objection, I'm changing Mid to 50% and Low to 10%, which will line up the article count. Rlevse 13:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Pls look over Boy Scouts. I'd like to get GA for it before you leave. Are you going to be using wiki while you're on your vacation? Rlevse 16:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC) Oh, Arthur Rose Eldred, the first Eagle Scout, is number two on the GA list. Would you look at that too?Rlevse 16:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Some guy just failed Eldred. I addressed his issues in 35 minutes but he refuses to put it on hold or look it over again. I do not feel I should have to wait another 3 weeks by resubmitting it. What do you suggest? Rlevse 18:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Randy, it is evening here, so it must be morning at your place? Are you always on? I'll give the Eldred thing a look, and see what he says. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 18:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC).

I'm on the East Coast, it's early afternoon, yes I spend all day on a computer and check wiki frequently, my job is systems engineer, so I have easy access. Don't forget Boy Scouts too. thanks again.Rlevse 18:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• I did both the Boy Scout and the Eldred articles. I'm sure that the former is going to make it, just as sure as that the latter isn't. So effort can be directed here: priority setting should be recognizable to a systems engineer (ps. Nice quotes in the SE article. Not that I get from it what a systems engineer does, though). Wim van Dorst (Talk) 18:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC).

Delftsche Zwervers

Thought you may want to check this out-new on 28 July. Rlevse 16:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Atomic line filter

Hello. You recently voted on the FAC of Atomic line filter, which I nominated. As I believe I have dealt with your inital objections (see the nom and the article talk page), would you please reevaluate it? Thanks! -- Rmrfstar 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

• Well done. I left further comments on the FAC page. Wim van Dorst (Talk) 20:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC).

Bricker Amendment

You made an objection on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bricker Amendment. Some changes have been made and I wonder if they satisfy your objection enough to change your vote? Thanks for your scrutiny of this article. PedanticallySpeaking 20:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Return

How was vacation? See announcements on project page. I took Gilwell Park from a stub and listed for FAC. RIght now it has 4-5 supports and no objections. I also helped with Bhumibol Adulyadej, the king of Thailand and it's listed as FAC. It's all supports but there's been some vandalism because some Thais think only good things should be said about the king. One of those guys has been blocked twice.Rlevse 16:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Gilwell Park

Double refs

Can you look at this and see why each refs are showing twice? Even #2 & #8 double for each usage (Rogers). I can't figure it out. It did this to me last night and is still doing it. Before it started on the Gilwell Park article, it did it to me on Donald Rumsfeld, but stopped after awhile. I don't know why that one started working right. If you click on the article tab, it does this; but if you go to history and click in the most recent date time stamp, it displays correctly. Rlevse 10:04, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• Seems to work now, at least at work. Will check from home later today in case it's something with my home 'puter.Rlevse 14:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Works fine at home too now. Go figure. Rlevse 23:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Don Potter

I've only found info on him being a life-long staffer at Gilwell, and four things he made there: The Jim Green Gate, Gidney Cabin, the Leopard Gates, and some totems he carved for the 1929 Jamboree. Nothing on sculptures per se.Rlevse 16:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

request for help against deletionist

this guy really wants to delete my recent additions for illustration-Image:LaszlonagyU.jpg‎, Image:Laszlonagycarlgusta.jpg‎; and Image:BoyScoutsofNippon.jpg, please help me save them from him. Chris 19:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, Chris, I hope you won't hold it against me, but I think that Carnildo is right in pointing out the missing information:
  • source information for the Nagy picture. Please add, as I really like this picture, and do see that this picture would be a real asset to the Nagy article.
  • arguments that the Japanese boy scouts picture would be unique enough to claim fair use. I just see a couple of boys being active at something. Carnildo is right that such a picture without copyright would be quite readily available or could be made so.

Met vriendelijke groeten, Wim van Dorst (Talk) 21:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC).