Talk:Al-Nahr

Palestine Mid‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

Earlier name?

PEF map shows "El Kahweh" at this place, and Jacotin's map shows "El Qahwéh". Census 1922: "Al Nahr wal Tal", Table XI (if that's it, note that al-Tall was very close and is not listed separately). Do we have any information about a name change? Zero^talk 00:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I've seen is when it was depopulated. [1] It seems from various site reports on the tel they're located on that those villages were established in the Ottoman period, but there's nothing in the brief histories about name change. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 2 Tevet 5774 01:24, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Khalidi has missed the SWP, Guerin, and Jacotin-stuff for this place. Looks as if he mostly relied on Aron Keminsky for Al-Nahr history. And that at least Al-Kabri was mentioned both in Mamluk times, and in the early Ottoman 1596-daftar, p193 in HA; looks like pretty continous habitation (which is to be expected, in an area as rich as this). Cheers, Huldra (talk) 06:25, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The summary in Grootkerk's Gazetteer is confusing (#48 on pp10–11). He gives the P.E.F. 1878 name as "Kahouel", but it is "el Kahweh" (map 3) and I don't find any other mention of Kahouel. Then he gives the Zimmermann 1861 map name as "Kahwei El Naher"; I don't have that map but in Zimmermann's 1850 map it is "el Kuweh". He gives the "Ottoman 16th Cent." name as "Tall Al Mafray"; I find no such name in Hutteroth and Abdulfallah but Grootkerk mentions two other sources he used (the Israel Atlas and H. Rhode, "The Administration and Population of the Sanca of Safed in the 16th Century" (Phd thesis, Columbia, 1979). For the Mamluk period he gives "Tall Al Mafshukh" (same sources) — there is a Birket al-Mafshukh near el-Tall (see Petersen, Muslim Palestine, p290). Zero^talk 08:47, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

PEF has the Birket al-Mafshukh near el-Tall, SWP I p.158, Palmer 41 (Petersen missed them). The rest of the Grootkerk's Gazetteer names are a mystery to me. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This quote should help. It's taken from Aharon Kempinski's 1992-1993 reports of excavations at Tel Kabri. During the course of excavations he also did the archaeology of al-Tall and en-Nahr. The report was typewritten and so I've reproduced this via typing (so please give the quote some consideration).

The site of al-Tall is an ancient mound overlooking a warer reservoir and spring (in Arabic (sic)" Birkat al Mafshukh") immediately to the north-east. Here stood the Arab village of al-Tall until 1948, the twin of another village al-Nahr (also called al Qahwa) to the east (Khalidi 1992: 27-28, 32; Fig. 1) Both villages were built over the debris of a much larger ancicent site (Kempinski 1987: 176), It is not yet clear at this stage when the ancient settlement on the tell ceased to exist before it was resettled during the Medieval Period. Makhul, who collected oral histories of villages in the Akka region, mentioned that after the Crusader wars the Mamluks had brought to this area a new population from North Africa and Egypt and settled them in three neighbouring villages: al Tall, al Nahr and Umm al Faraj (Makhul 1979:117-8). It should be noted that the lack of archaeological evidence so far for a late 16th century settlement corresponds with the fact that al-Tall was not mentioned in the Ottoman taxation survey records of 1596/7, which list the adjacent village of al-Kabri (Kabra), for example (Hutteroth and Abdulfattah 1977:193). It was recorded that in the late 19th century al-Tall had a population of 200, all of whom were Muslims. The villargers tended olive, pomegranate and mulberry trees and ground their grain at a nearby mill operated by spring water (Conder and Kitchener 1881, 1: 148). The layout of the village was rectangular. Its houses were built from stone and concrete or from mud (Makhul 1979:117). The population of both al-Nahr and al-Tall before they were abandoned and destroyed in 1948 was 300 (Makhul 1979: 117). (Kempinski and Niemeier 1994; *47) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 4 Tevet 5774 22:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that was a very good summary- -Kempinski only missed Guerin (but just about everybody does). Khalidi has the Makhul -reference as "Makhul 1977:117" ...and looking at the biblio, the only Makhul he uses is also from 1977, could you please check that date again? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 11:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Kempinski wanted to make sure their story was recorded. In the bibliography for that section he has "Makhul, N, 1979. Akka and its Villages. Akka." Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tevet 5774 00:46, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked Rhode's phD: on p. 99 he has Tall al-Mafraj, at this grid number (that is: 163/266), located in the nahiya of Akka, part of Sanjak Safad, and the land tenure was "T", that is Timar land. It was classified under Admin unit M, that is "Mezraa" ("used, or plowed land").

Rhode, H. (1979). Administration and Population of the Sancak of Safed in the Sixteenth Century (PhD). Columbia University.

Huldra (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1922, 1931 and 1945 census

1922 census has p. 36:

Al Nahr wa Tal 422 persons (3 Bahai, the rest Muslim)
Al Kabri 553 (all Muslim)

1931 census has p.102:

Nahr En 120 houses, 522 people (1 Christian, the rest Muslim)

p.101:

Kabri, El 173 houses, 728 people ( alll Muslim)

1945 census has p. 41:

Nahr, En 610 Arabs

p. 40:

Tarshiha and Kabri 5,360 Arabs

There is a discussion in Khalidi, p. 27 about this. According to al-Daggagh, the populations counts for Al-Nahr and Al-Tall were aggregated in the 1922-census, but in the 1931 and 1945 census only Al-Nahrs is mentioned (but the number from Al-Tall were presumably included in the Al-Nahr numbers.)

However, Makhul (1977) argues that this is too low a count, ie. that Al-Tall-numbers are not included in the 1931 and 1945 Al-Nahr numbers. Khalidi seem to agree with him. According to Makhul (1977), in 1948 the population of al-Nahr was about 600 and Al-Tall 300. (Which is closer to the average growth of the region, according to Khalidi).

I am not sure which version we should go with: probably report both? Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably we should at least mention the uncertainty, with citation to Khalidi. Zero^talk 03:27, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1887-census

G. Schumacher: Population list of the Liwa of Akka p. 169ff , in *(1887): Quarterly statement - Palestine Exploration Fund Volume: 19-20 have, in "Kada Akka":

p. 172: Nahret Tell: 275 souls
p. 173: el Kaweh: 370 souls

I assume that could be Al-Tall, Acre and Al-Nahr, but I cannot find el Kabri anywhere? Huldra (talk) 16:44, 9 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Huh, so he was a census taker before he went to Tel Megiddo? Who'd have thought? Anyway, it's there on page 190, but it's counted as part of Tsafet's area which is why you didn't see it at first: p.190: El Kabry: 690 souls 138 of'em taxable. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Shevat 5775 07:51, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks. G. Schumacher is one of those persons who pops up all over the place. I´ve used him quite a lot up at Hauran (present Syria), where he surveyed for a rail-line. Huldra (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, we dig next to two lovely deep trenches of his at my area in Tel Megiddo. I didn't know about his survey activities though. Pretty cool. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 18 Shevat 5775 23:38, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

El-Qahweh origin?

Do we have any sources that can tell use why this place was called the coffee for most of its history? I can't find any association with coffee-growing in the sources. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Shevat 5775 05:10, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a possibility. In an article "Coffee Lore" in the PEF Quarterly of July 1905 (p. 258) I read "When the use of wine was prohibited, its place was taken by a decoction of coffee-berries. The name "coffee" is derived from the Arabic Kahweh (pronounced Kahveh by the Turks), and, in its primary sense, denoted wine or other intoxicating liquors." Lynch in his Narrative (p243) also records kahweh as once meaning wine. Zero^talk 07:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As much as I do love the fact that Arabic apparently once had a single word for two of the best beverages there are, I don't think the tell's seen much wine action since the time of the palace and the only coffee action it's seen is the obscene amount we drink during the digs. We also can't really use any of that for the article without it being synthesised info and original research. Though I guess I can put it in my Kabri villages article which probably wouldn't pass muster as a reliable source. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Shevat 5775 07:41, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]