Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2024 October
For clarity, this request was ultimately closed by USER:Vpab15. It was initially closed (in good-faith) by USER:Asukite, and re-opened at my request. USER:Vpab15 ultimately closed it (in good-faith) ostensibly on-behalf of USER:Asukite, with a consensus of 3 (three) in-favor of KEEPING "AIM-174B" and 2 (two) in-favor of moving to "AIM-174." (full disclosure, I am the original author of the AIM-174 article) My position is that the article should be MOVED/REVERTED to “AIM-174.” My rationale for a MR:
1. "AIM-174 air-to-air missile" was moved to "AIM-174B", in good-faith, but without discussion, as per WP:RM. WP:BOLD does not exempt one from WP. At the very least the page should be reverted, per WP:RMUM. This was my rationale for attempting to move it on my own, originally, but was unable to do so for technical reasons, and ultimately began this move discussion. I recognize that "air-to-air missile" is unneeded due to WP:CONCISE.
2. The term “AIM-174” is freely-used -- admittedly alongside "AIM-174B" -- among sources[1][2][3] and is easily recognizable.
3. WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE emphasize titles should be concise and precise, obviously. The title “AIM-174” is sufficiently precise to cover the entire missile family, including the AIM-174B variant. It avoids unnecessary complexity and redundancy.
4. WP:CONSISTENT, virtually all missiles -- and ALL U.S. air-to-air-missiles -- use the base model as their article title. While the AIM-174B is the only known operational variant, does that mean we should change the AIM-54 Phoenix article to "AIM-54C," given that, at the end of the Phoenix's life, it was the only operational variant? Per WP:CONSISTENT, see: AIM-4 Falcon, AIM-26 Falcon, AIM-47 Falcon, AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-7 Sparrow, AIM-54 Phoenix, AIM-68 Big Q, AIM-82, AIM-95 Agile, AIM-97 Seekbat, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-132, AIM-152 AAAM, AIM-260
5. WP:DISAMBIG, WP:PRECISE; the current title “AIM-174B” may imply that there are multiple significant variants that require disambiguation. However, the primary subject of the article is the AIM-174 missile as a whole, with the AIM-174B being a variant, in-line with US missile naming conventions. Using “AIM-174” as the title encompasses all possible variants without the need for additional disambiguation or future discussion. FOR EXAMPLE: All AIM-9Xs are AIM-9s. All AIM-7Cs are AIM-7s. etc.
6. No one has made any attempt at editing the body or lead, which opens with "AIM-174." Indeed, as it stands currently, "AIM-174B" is not mentioned until the end of the intro. (and intro which, in full disclosure, I wrote) Indeed, I would argue that as a compromise, we could move the mention of the "AIM-174B" up to within the first sentence or two.
MWFwiki (talk) 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
References
- Involved editor comment - I just want to note that I regret reverting my closure in this case as it has likely made the situation worse and now involved another editor who was inevitably dragged into this - thanks, in any case, and sorry for that.
- I won't offer any opinion as to the close, but will note that of the prevalent voices in the discussion, there was an imbalance in civility and a clear lack of consensus. ASUKITE 03:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus, move to AIM-174 This is a very tricky discussion, because the original page was "AIM-174 air-to-air missile", it was moved unilaterally to "AIM-174B" recently in September (note the suffix), and the move discussion was to move it from "AIM-174B" to "AIM-174." In short, we have two different moves here: whether to remove "air-to-air missile" and whether the suffix should be used. In terms of dropping the "missile" part, I think there's clear consensus in that discussion to shorten the name. I do not see any consensus as to whether it should be AIM-174 or AIM-174B, though, but rather two opposing arguments without a clear policy winner. As a result, it should revert to whatever the status quo is, which in this case would be "AIM-174" without the "missile" part. If anything, I'm not sure discussion doesn't favour the shorter title - one opposer wants to maintain the status quo, but there isn't a status quo, and one of the non-specifically-voting commenters says it's unnecessary without being completely supportive of it. SportingFlyer T·C 05:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- I think your analysis of the separation of the problems with the RM identifies the issue I have parsing the RM and this MRV. I do think that there are two issues that may have individually been separated and could be read as consensus against the longer disambiguator but no consensus for B/no B. I take issue with the participating mover's interpretation of policy "Unfortunately for you, a no consensus decision will result in this article staying here" in the RM, and would instead endorse your idea that aligns with policy, that a no consensus would take us back the original title, sans extra disambiguatotr. This is definitely a policy argument that is splitting hairs, but I think you've correctly identified the issues at play here. Bobby Cohn (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I saw that and completely disagree that a "no consensus" result would validate a recent page move. SportingFlyer T·C 17:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
- I think your analysis of the separation of the problems with the RM identifies the issue I have parsing the RM and this MRV. I do think that there are two issues that may have individually been separated and could be read as consensus against the longer disambiguator but no consensus for B/no B. I take issue with the participating mover's interpretation of policy "Unfortunately for you, a no consensus decision will result in this article staying here" in the RM, and would instead endorse your idea that aligns with policy, that a no consensus would take us back the original title, sans extra disambiguatotr. This is definitely a policy argument that is splitting hairs, but I think you've correctly identified the issues at play here. Bobby Cohn (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The RM starter was not happy with a certain element of a bold move, while the other part was non-contentious. He contested said element of the move and failed, as the consensus was to keep the specific contested change made to the name. The bold move was therefore taken over by a consensus at RM: implicit consensus concerning the non-contentious element + explicit consensus concerning the remaining contentious element = consensus for the entire thing. The closer correctly recognized this.—Alalch E. 23:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. It's easy to see both sides of this issue, and I tend to agree with Alalch E. that the closer correctly read the RM survey and discussion. This closure was reasonable and in line with the closing instructions. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 05:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Nationality law of North Macedonia (closed)
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| The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
The move request for renaming Nationality law of North Macedonia to "North Macedonian nationality law" was closed as not move, (although with votes 3-2 in favour of my proposal), and the closer relied the decision on a statement of WP:MOSMAC that is not part of the community consensus reached in the 2019-RFC. This statement tells us Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. There are two main problems with this statement and the closure of the move request: 1) A recent move request for renaming Macedonian denar to "Denar of North Macedonia" was rejected, and the followed-up move review was rejected unanimously, and none of the editors was convinced about the above statement, which I include in the move review. The two different decisions made in these two recent move requests tell us that decisions are made without considering wikipedia policies WP:NC and guidelines WP:MOSMAC. If there is a guideline that tells us to avoid adjectives in article titles, then Macedonian denar should be renamed to "Denar of North Macedonia". If this is not true, then Nationality law of North Macedonia should be renamed to "North Macedonian nationality law". Either way is okay, but my brain cannot accept double standards by pointing to the same guideline/exception/statement. One of the participants in the two move requests opposed Denar of North Macedonia but then strongly defended Nationality law of North Macedonia, pushing double standards in a non-scientific way. 2) I will share here some research that I did and already discussed with the closer and shows that the closer was trapped (me too as well a few weeks ago) by a statement, the validity of which has been raised in Talk:2019 North Macedonian presidential election#Article title move and includes a discussion about the statement: Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether started by an editor, FlavrSavr, who was involved in the RFC 2019 and who opposed "North" in all cases (shown in the votes in all questions). Editors Teratix and Number 57 participated in the long discussion with FlavrSavr. FlavrSavr said: The actual policy clearly states that Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. and specifies in which cases "North Macedonian" may be used. Number57 said: Then whoever has formulated the policy has ignored the outcome of the RfC. Perhaps this needs to be flagged up at WP:AN or somewhere, as it's not really acceptable for a clear outcome from a community discussion to be ignored when translating it into policy. FlavrSavr then responded to Number 57 with a long message that includes: The sentence in question was proposed by me and inspired by Argean's and other comments in the RfC - this really was a no-brainer for most of us as it seems to be a natural and neutral resolution, and this wasn't opposed by anyone. MJL (main contributor of WP:MOSMAC) joined the discussion and added: Actually, on a second read through, I have become very concerned by Number 57's comments. Future Perfect at Sunrise joined the discussion and added: The sentence in question ... was not covered by the original RfC but was written into the draft unilaterally by MJL – certainly with the best of intentions. and ... And if there are groups of articles where local editors consider adjectival titles preferable for WP:CONSISTENCY reasons, we definitely have a problem and I'm not sure at all we should treat that WP:NCMAC sentence as authoritative. qedk (one of the three editors in the closing of RFC 2019) commented: Since, the LOCALCONSENSUS surrounding the inclusion of that singular sentence has certainly changed, either it should be removed, or reframed in a manner, where it doesn't sound like policy. And given, WP:LOCALCONSENSUS explicity states — Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale, this particular statement cannot be held above the policy formed at the behest of the community. With thanks. Argean joined the discussion and said: This particular sentence was proposed by FlavrSavr to be added in Future Perfect at Sunrise's first draft and was never questioned by anybody until now. To remind you that FlavrSavr was involved in the RFC 2019 and opposed "North", so the idea of adding this special statement to WP:MOSMAC was a way to avoid the community consensus as much as possible and was proposed by an editor who disagrees with "North Macedonian", and this was done only after the RFC 2019. Not fair at all in my opinion. One of the last comments of this discussion was by qedk, who is one of the three closers of the RFC 2019. qedk said: To note for posterity's sake, the post-RfC drafting was mostly done by FPaS and MJL, and with SilentResident, Argean, Khajidha, FlavrSavr chipping in. Now, if out of those we already have two editors (FPaS and Khajidha in contention, on different things), you cannot say that the LOCALCONSENSUS persists. Noting again, that Teratix and Number 57 do not see it as an accurate summarization as well. I do not mean to question it when you say that it's in good intent and that it's meant to prevent conflicts but what I am saying is, you cannot have it override community consensus, which in this case, was clear and not a LOCALCONSENSUS. All these prove that the statement about articles has been disputed by multiple editors already, but was not removed from WP:MOSMAC although suggested by the closing panel of the RFC 2019. The argument of the closer of this move request about this statement that doesn't allow adjectives in titles is incorrect, and couldn't be correct because WP:LOCALCONSENSUS cannot override community consensus achieved in 2019-RFC, in which The closing panel agrees that there is consensus for Both "North Macedonian" and "... of North Macedonia", where a similar form would be used for other countries. e.g. the North Macedonian Government or the Government of North Macedonia. for State-associated and other public entities. The second argument of the closer about implicit consensus on the WP:MOSMAC guidelines (discussed in the talk page) because nobody removed this incorrect sentence against community consensus is also incorrect because we have multiple examples of article titles that use the adjective, see North Macedonian passport, 2019 North Macedonian presidential election, 2020 North Macedonian parliamentary election, 2024 North Macedonian presidential election, and 2024 North Macedonian parliamentary election. As already mentioned in the move review for Macedonian denar, the reason WP:MOSMAC was used in these examples but not in Macedonian denar and Nationality law of North Macedonia is the lack of experienced editors and the law participation that are eliminated by editors with double standards. The experienced editors @Number 57 and @Teratix have been consistently using WP:MOSMAC for years in pages of North Macedonian elections, and I don't understand why we need to use double standards enforced by a single editor in other pages. Nationality law of North Macedonia is completely inconsistent with all other pages of Category:Nationality_law and should be moved all in line with WP:CONSISTENT and WP:MOSMAC and 2019-RFC community consensus. Thank you all for your time. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
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| The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |
Macedonian denar (closed)
| The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
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I opened a move request for Macedonian denar and proposed to move it to Denar of North Macedonia (like in the case of Category:Nationality_law where North Macedonia follows a different format) or to North Macedonian denar which is the most common name backed-up with reliable sources -- 70%. The move request was closed today as "not moved". In my humble opinion, multiple wikipedia policies have been overlooked. I list my arguments below. 1. Wikipedia tells us what Consensus means: Consensus on Wikipedia neither requires unanimity (which is ideal but rarely achievable), nor is it the result of a vote. and Wikipedia tells us how consensus is formed: editors open a section on the associated talk page and try to work out the dispute through discussion, using reasons based in policy, sources, and common sense; they can also suggest alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns. 2. North Macedonia's policies Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia tell us what name to use: However, in line with the reliable sources, adjectives may still be used when referring to such institutions in generic terms (e.g. the Greek and North Macedonian prime ministers), especially where the possessive form would be grammatically cumbersome or unnatural. While reliable sources continue to use both plain "Macedonian" and "North Macedonian" in such contexts, the majority opinion in the RfC favored the fuller form, "North Macedonian". Article names, categories, and templates should avoid adjectival use altogether. The use of neutral formulations such as "of North Macedonia", "in North Macedonia," etc. is preferred. In my humble opinion, the general wikipedia's policies about consensus, and the specific North Macedonia's policies make clear that the editors have set default rules in favour of North Macedonian denar (or perhaps Denar of North Macedonia because of the last clause). 3. On the top of the already clear consensus and naming policies, the talk page of Macedonian denar hides an old move request that is backed-up by a long list Talk:Macedonian denar/Archive 2 of reliable sources that was collected by users who agreed and opposed, and the closer found a clear consensus, and I quote here the summary of their study: List of Reliable Sources (North Macedonian denar: 135 findings, North Macedonia denar: 57 findings, Macedonian denar: 89 findings) Therefore, North Macedonian denar is WP:COMMONNAME and this is backed-up with reliable sources that show: 70% of reliable webpages include "North" (48% is North Macedonian denar) and only 30% use "Macedonian denar". 4. WP:COMMONNAME tells us what common name means: Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources. When this offers multiple possibilities, editors choose among them by considering several principles: the ideal article title precisely identifies the subject; it is short, natural, distinguishable and recognizable; and resembles titles for similar articles. North Macedonian denar is the most common name in reliable sources (70%), precisely identifies the currency of North Macedonia, it is as short as the name of the country, it is the natural adjective in the english language, it is the best distinguishable and recognizable option, and it resembles titles for similar articles, and the most important criterion is that "North Macedonian" was agreed for State-associated and other public entities in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia. 5. Similar discussions have been made for years under the talk pages of 2019 North Macedonian presidential election, 2020 North Macedonian parliamentary election, 2024 North Macedonian parliamentary election. There the wikipedia policies for North Macedonia naming were used, because there were experienced editors who protected the pages. In the case of Macedonian denar, the lack of experienced editors involved in the discussion for the move request leads to a messy situation. 6. To see the issue from a different point of view. If an editor thinks there is no clear consensus for North Macedonian denar should wonder if there is clear consensus for Macedonian denar. North Macedonia's policies tell us the default rules to use unless a clear consensus is made against them. I don't see any clear consensus for Macedonian denar, I see only 30% using plain Macedonian. Clear consensus perhaps means 80% or at least 70% but definitely not 30%. 7. To close this discussion, I am convinced that all wikipedia policies suggest North Macedonian denar, and if someone believes there is no clear consensus (because of counting votes instead of using policies and sources) then the answer is found at a wikipedia policy from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia. In the absence of a clearer consensus on which of the two to prefer, it is recommended to use the longer form where ambiguity might be an issue (especially on first introducing the topic). Sorry for the long comment, I had to do some research to find this information and perhaps it is worth sharing it with editors who are interested but perhaps not aware of it. Thank you everyone for taking the time to read this. Hopefully, after this discussion wikipedia will be improved. Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 21:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)
Comment to All: Two editors have commented so far and none of them responded to my quotes for wikipedia policies. We continue playing the same game that started with the move request. People don't see, people don't know, people don't understand, people have all these skills required to overlook wikipedia policies. As a non-experienced user I accept my mistake and the wrong way of expressing my thoughts in the move request, and I opened this move review as suggested by the closer. If editors intentionally avoid discussing wikipedia policies, I recommend to everyone to close this move review ASAP, because we are wasting our time, and we don't help wikipedia becoming better. By avoiding discussing if the closure was correct while ignoring the wikipedia policies written above gives a bad example to editors who have a bias, and from my personal experience I can tell you that you don't help me to learn how I can contribute to wikipedia if its policies are not used. I am not here to bother people, and my experience so far is too much "bureaucracy". People play ping pong and move the ball from the one side to the other without answering my question which by the way is very simple: why North Macedonia's policies Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)#Adjectival form of North Macedonia that are in favour of "North" are not used for the currency of the country, while reliable sources confirm 70% use "North"? If experienced, not biased, and uninvolved editors don't know the answer, then who knows? Please help me! Cheers! Open Free Eye (talk) 05:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope
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| The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the close of this review. Please do not modify it. |