Talk:Cremation

Question about temperatures

Should this article include information about the minimum temperature for proper (i.e. sanitary, etc) cremation? This would include more information on pyres -- whether they work.

Suttee

Should there be some mention of suttee in this article? Maybe under "Negative recent history experiences with cremation"? -R. fiend 23:32, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Sure. Not to be confused with sauté. SBHarris 04:11, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

US Cremation Law

I was just watching an episode of Six Feet Under and a plot point involved the fact that it is US law that a body must be cremated in the casket sold to those paying for the service. I imagine this relates to mentions of rental caskets in the article. If such a law does indeed exist it is probably worth including in the article. --bodnotbod 03:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

You'd think this would be the subject of 50 state laws and not of a Federal law. But it is very similar to the Federal "Funeral Rule" 16 CFR Part 453 which is enforced by the Federal Trade Commission (provisions explained here). It prevents funeral directors from falsely claiming that a casket is required for cremation, and requires them to provide an "alternate container". But as I recall 6FU the issue was re-use of a casket (that is, selling a casket twice) -- I'm not sure if that would be covered under the Funeral Rule or under state fraud statutes. - Nunh-huh 03:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Other cremation notes

Some more exotic cremation post-wishes have included being launched/scattered into space.

Also, one prolific comic book writer/artist (I'm not sure which) requested his ashes be mixed with the ink for the comic he was known for.

Ryan 02.26.05

Middle Ages?

In Christian countries, cremation fell out of favor due to the Christian belief in resurrection of the dead, but in the Middle Ages rationalists and classicists began to advocate it again. In England, for example, Sir Henry Thompson, Surgeon to Queen Victoria...

Last I checked, Queen Victoria wasn't anywhere near the Middle Ages — and the rest of the paragraph proceeds in similar fashion from the 19th to 20th centuries.

I didn't just fix it because I don't know enough about the subject to know whether "Middle Ages" is incorrect and it was actually the 19th century (or some other period), or whether "Middle Ages" is correct but examples need to be added about the time between 1517 and 1837. --TreyHarris 17:57, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think you are right. I'm not sure there was any discussion of cremation in Europe during the Middle Ages - at that time, only burning at the stake was popular, and even then it was generally seen as a punishment. In Britain the first post Christian cremation was by William Price in 1884, and he wasn't particularly thanked for it. I think he was also a member of The Cremation Society, and probably had more influence in helping to legalise cremation. -- Solipsist 22:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ATLANTIS MEMORIAL REEF Intersting site...seems to be the up and coming thing to do with cremated remains. I don't know how I feel about it. Seems like a really nice plan for this company to make some big money! http://www.atlantismemorialreef.com/home.htm -Sues

04 Indian Ocean Tsunami

.. A brief summary of the Tsunami is given here as pretext to something dealing with cremation.. unfortunately, the content (at once, said around 300,000 death toll but the actual reported was around 175,000) cannot be expected to always reflect what is stated in the Tsunami article. As such, either non-specific references ("Due to the large death toll..") should replace the current text or the issue of cremation should be discussed in the Tsunami article itself with "See Also:" links placed in the cremation article.

Thanks so much.. Drumguy8800 06:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Linked Hebrew article

Can someone please confirm that this is an article about cremation? The English interwiki link there links to Furnace (and vice versa), but the photo apparently comes from the Commons, and does show a crematorium. Kelisi 00:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

GUADALAJARA..........Toledo es 100% AMERICA TOLEDO SE LA LONCHA

Pictures of cremation

Anyone else here notice that the guy doing the cremation was smoking while performing the cremation?
JesseG 05:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Yep, he's even got the smoke in his mouth while inspecting the body. Disgracful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.255.133 (talk) 07:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

• Is there anyway to find a more professional-looking picture of the guy sweeping the CR'S into the processor? He's smoking a cigarette, and wearing a T shirt. I'm sure each company has their standards, but ours, and every other company I've seen require uniforms (as well, who'd want dust +ect on their personal clothing?) and smoking is while processing is just rude, and unprofessional. (where's his dust mask?) As an employee at a crematorium, I Hate having to stand in that cloud of dust that blows up during this stage, let alone having to breathe it through my mask

Matriarchal vs. patriarchal religions

I think this section is not very clear. There is no explanation of what these religions are and the links just lead to 'matriarchy'/'patriarchy'. Also the example of the pagan religion favouring cremation actually contradicts the point that matriarchal religions supposedly favour inhumation. Anyway, so I'm going to remove it to here. Perhaps it can be improved.

Religious reasons in Pagan faiths

Cremation is the usual means of burial in Patriarchal religions, the rising smoke symbolizing the deceased's spirit ascending to the domain of the Father deities in the heavens. Conversely, Matriarchal religions have favoured interment of the corpse, often in a fetal position, representing the return of the body to Mother Earth in the tomb which represents the uterus. Of modern Neo-Pagan religions, Ásatrú favours cremation. 131.111.8.98 12:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect Usage

"Cremation is the usual means of burial in Patriarchal religions" - Cremation is not burial, minor error, should be fixed Bmaganti 03:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

temperature discrepancy

Here it says that the temperature of the funace needs to reach 1600-1800 fahrenheit, yet here it states that the body is burned at 1400 to 2100 °F.

Explanation, anyone? Daniel tzvi 22:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

-- Yeah I saw this, obviously two different authors not checking their facts. What is more worrying is that the article has a picture of the undertaker removing all jewelry, but a bit further down it says that no jewelry is removed. Do we conclude that the smoking guy in the pictures is a thief then?? And for christ's sake, he has a cig. in his mouth at every stage, so I assume that the bone crusher machine, while containing the deceased's bone ashes, will also contain a few sprinkles of Mr. undertakers Marlboro as well?? This article is a bit of a mish mash at the moment. 11/6/06

The time mentioned for cremation - 2 hours ( and one per retort ) - should be of concern. The literature on the Holocaust insists that several bodies were burned using old technology and in minutes not hours. I would delete, scrap, etc these sections or you guys are in for real trouble - someone who is better read on their own sugject will scream soon. Right about now......

Religions prohibiting Cremation

The Presbyterian Church USA does not prohibit cremation. In fact, the following article from the PC(USA) describes how it is prefered by most members: http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/2004/04201.htm

How can cremation be both forbidden in Zoroastrianism and at the same time becoming more popular among Zoroastrians? That seems contradictory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JRThro (talk • contribs) 18:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC) For those of you whose loved ones were cremated including mine I was looking on the web about information on cremation and unfortunately there is one site I found that is definitely against cremation even calling it a heathen practice [1]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dhe2008 (talk • contribs) 11:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

A question about removing the jewelry

Under the second "Image:Cremation1.jpg" picture it says, quoting: "The body is checked to make sure all jewelry has been removed.", but below in the text under "Burning and ashes collection" section it says that, quoting: "Jewellery, such as wristwatches and rings, are not removed.", so which one is correct ??

regards Wayfarer-Talk | on September 13, 2006

Temperatures

There are two different temperature ranges sstated in the article- should one take an average to know the true range?Guille 00:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

According to the article in the Medicolegal Investigation of Death, "Cremation is by open flame or oven heating (calcination) at temperatures between 1600F and 2200F." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.135.10.16 (talk) 22:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Other reason for requesting cremation

My mother requested cremation because of the fact that graves often go unvisited (my grandfather and uncle, to name two in our family). Also, I recently read an article in Jane magazine where a mortician was asked by a Jane staffer what she preferred when she died, and the mortician stated the exact same reason. That "gravesites often are forgotten about" and that she'd rather be cremated. 66.92.255.54 20:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Leigh

I have a major issue with the images on this page. The images used in your cremation article show a man smoking in a football t-shirt, while his tattoo is showing. This gives a false sense of what cremation is about, and takes away dignity. You can see a full astray when the human ashes are being put in the 'box'. There are so many examples, and pictures on the internet. Please take there down, and choose a new set. It's very upsetting that you would put these online in the first place!

Some people get upset by reality. Not our problem. Perhaps you have some mental picture that most crematoria feature operators standing around the retort in full mourning funerial attire, making long sad professional faces and never ever smoking or eating or doing anything ordinary, or human. Lose it. That's not what you're paying for, and that's not what generally happens. The brains boil, the skull often pops, and later the bones get ground up in the cremora, and in general what happens in this process is industrial enough that whether or not some operator is smoking a cig or has a tattoo, is the least of psychological issues. I admit there's a certain amount of black irony in this guy getting his cigarette ashes in the cremains (I actually used this pic as an illustration in the irony article); but for the long run, it really doesn't matter, does it? I mean, your cremains are merely the 3 or 4% of the atoms that happened to be in your body at the end of your life, and which didn't vaporize. There's nothing special about them-- if you're an adult, they've all been replaced several times, at least, and many of them dozens of times, by other calcium or phosphorus or oxygen atoms, while you were alive. The atoms are not the issue-- their arrangement is (or was) the issue. Whose tattoo is showing or what people are wearing when they get rid of a dead body is so far outside the central issue, that my mind boggles that it bothers you.

Today's newsflash is that there isn't ultimately much that is pretty about any of the possible options for getting rid of a dead human body. That fact that people pretend this isn't true by dressing up and then hiding it all, and trying like crazy not to ever look again, does not change the basic facts. Which are dust to dust unless you have a lot of liquid nitrogen. And even then it's not pretty. SBHarris 02:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• I have personally witnessed two cremations. NONE of it is "pretty" to watch. Any attempt to "beautify" the process here would be a fruitless effort. T.E. Goodwin 00:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for Cremation has the note: "and in London, a space crisis led Harriet Harman to propose re-opening old graves for "double-decker" burials." In the UK it is normal and legal for up to 3 bodies to be placed in a single plot at 9, 6 and three feet deep. It is also not unusual for interrements over a certain age to be moved to another are and the grave re-used (excpet where a family has explicitly paid for a plot). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.33.116.240 (talk) 13:43, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Punishment

What about enemies being punished by cremating their corpses and scattering the ashes so that the burial place does not become a pilgrimage site? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.20.17.84 (talk) 16:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

Add it. There's a definite feeling about that in history. It was explicitly the reason the 11 Nuremburg executed defendants were cremated and secretely scattered. And it's been going on for years. For example, they posthumously dug up and cremated John Wycliff, for heresy. SBHarris 18:56, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Correct Nomenclature

A cremation furnace is NOT a crematory. A crematory is the name for the building in which the crematorium is located. The crematorium is that part of the building where cremations are carried out. T.E. Goodwin 23:58, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Crembola?

Would anyone please help me find a source for the term "crembola"? I've been hunting down sources for this article and I think the term "crembola" is way too cute (in a sick way) to remove. :)

Also, if anyone else would like to help me out with the great source-finding endeavour, I'd appreciate some help. Lewis Collard 21:55, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ways of keeping or disposing of the cremated remains

My guess is that Keith Richard's novel disposal method is best left omitted. It might be worth noting that the Cremation Act 1930 (UK) does not preclude this (or any method) of disposal. - Tiswas^(t/c) 22:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Mmm? Keith Richard isn't mentioned anywhere in the article, and (to my knowledge) has never been. Lewis Collard 20:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Keith Richard recently claimed that he snorted his father's ashes (http://news.google.com/news?num=100&q=keith+richards+ashes) - I was reading this article at around the same time, hence the connection. I was merely pointing preempting any inclusion of event in the article. - Tiswas^(t/c) 21:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, mmkay. :) Lewis Collard 16:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Needs a tad more pix if u ask me... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.125.35.40 (talk) 23:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC).

History section a mess

There are lots of uncited and really problematic areas in the history section. It is near eastern/eurupoean centric. there are many omissions. It belongs much lower in the article as well.

There is so much legitimate work in paleontology and archeology on the history of cremation, icluduing of course notes on its existence going back tens of thousands of years.

Even the ancient European practice strangely empathizes marginal postulations on sacrifice when in fact this is a well known military honor. Walker42 01:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Use it crime

What about the way cremation can be abused? Serial killers Robert George Clements and John Bodkin Adams, both doctors, provided false info on cremation certificates (are these mentioned on the page?) to get rid of bodies with little chance of being caught. The latter doctor was prosecuted for lying on these forms. Malick78 13:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Nazi extermination

Re the recent addition, all the detail about Nazi extermination during WWII, beyond perhaps a simple mention and how it worked against Jewish religious belief, seems a little off-topic for cremation. --Gary D 06:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Hi Gary: I STRONGLY disagree with you as it goes to the very HEART of the issue of cremation as perpetrated by the Nazis and why cremation is such a major sore point vis-a-vis Jewish people as the most significant victims of the Holocaust in which cremation was such a big part as the bodies were flung into the ovens of the extermination camps by the millions, one of the 20th century's greatest stains on humankind. IZAK 06:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, IZAK. Let me take a more inclusive position than what my dashed-off comment above may suggest. I think the essence of your information is indeed on-point even in a technical article about cremation, such as how it was used during the Holocaust, how it went against Jewish religious belief, and how it developed a sore point with the Jews as a result. I think on the other hand that material such as, "one of the twentieth century's greatest stains on humankind" would be more in context in articles on Nazism, the Holocaust, Judaism, human rights, and the like. What I'm suggesting is a slimming down here to the cremation-related essentials, but not the elimination, of the Holocaust reference, because the context of the article is more narrowly on cremation per se.

Just a thought, maybe the text of this section should be changed; for example, "This is because the soul of recently dead person is not fully aware that they died, and they experience seeing their body burnt (this is also one of the reasons autopsies are forbidden under normal circumstances)." gives the impression that a soul actually exists, and that the beliefs of Jews are correct and right. Maybe you should add "supposedly", "allegedly", etc, to separate fantasy from reality. 76.235.160.197 (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Tri-State Crematorium

I thought I had a link to an article on the Tri-State Crematorium case within the cremation article itself. Either I was mistaken or it had gotten removed at some point. The article on Tri-State has a little bit more information on the background of the case, part of the reasons this whole thing occured, and the aftermath. So I got the links put back into the main article in the appropriate sections.

JesseG 04:34, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think there was never a link. Only now I learn that there is a separate article.--Patrick 09:43, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Football shirt guy, redux

I think some of the displayed images are too offensive. I don't think they should be removed at all, because it gives a higher value to the article, but perhaps a warning for certain viewers would be at its place? Are there any types of premade warnings for like people under 16 or parental control or whatsoever? --Hans 07:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• I agree the the images are stark in their realism. But, they are needed, in my opinion, to demonstrate the procedures involved in the process. T.E. Goodwin 00:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• As an employee at a crematorium, is there anyway to find a more professional-looking picture of the guy sweeping the CR'S into the processor? He's smoking a cigarette, and wearing a T shirt. I'm sure each company has their standards, but ours, and every other company I've seen require uniforms (as well, who'd want dust +ect on their personal clothing?) and smoking is just while processing is just rude and unprofessional. - random reader.

Quit being such a wuss. ;P Lewis Collard! (baby i'm bad news) 03:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

And some further thoughts: who'd want to be burnt up by a guy in uniform? How on earth is that more respectful? It seems rather impersonal and cold to me. Were I one sensitive to how my body will be disposed of, I think the guy in the football shirt with the cigarette...well, that's a little bit more personal and friendly. I'd like to think things would be done that way.

So no, the photos stay. Lewis Collard! (baby i'm bad news) 03:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Composition of cremains

The material can not both be largely phosphates and largely carbon. Both are cited. OldZeb (talk) 18:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Boxing day Tsunami

This section is somewhat unclear. It seems to imply this happened everywhere affected. This seems unlikely since 1) Not everywhere had a large number of tourists affected 2) Not everywhere had a large number of people affected (e.g. according to the article on the Tsunami only four places had deaths in the thousands, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand) 3) For cultural and other reasons I don't believe mass cremations were used everywhere (a quick search finds no evidence they were used in Aceh for example which isn't surprising considering it's predominantly Muslim and conservative at that). It sounds to be like this is predominantly referring to Thailand (Phuket in particular) Nil Einne (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

California

I'm removing the uncited section on California. It's been legal to scatter there for over nine years,(see [2] and many, many hits on a quick google) and the story is no longer particularly notable. Neither was the law ever enforced, although it could complicate carrying out wishes, e.g. if a lawyer was executor. NTK (talk) 21:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

(often called cremains)

Surely not! That sounds more like a snack food like craisins! DavidFarmbrough (talk) 14:08, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

all the ashes in Nazi camps?

what happened to the ashes of those cremated by the Nazis. were the bones pulverized into ash? was there a machine in any of the camps for doing that? or were the bones just buried in the ground? if so, are the bones still there? if not, where is all the ash of millions of dead people? Tybridgefarm (talk) 11:04, 1 October 2008 (UTC)