Talk:Barnard College

Neutrality Issues and the Columbia vs. Barnard Rivalry

I do not believe that the standards for neutrality are being met when this page states that, "Nevertheless, some Columbia students and alumnae are unhappy with Barnard's association with Columbia University. As a result, Barnard students are a regular jest for Columbia students. Popular points of insult include the relative intelligence of a Barnard girl vs. a Columbia girl, the "easiness" of Barnard girls, and the typical Barnard girl's eagerness to associate herself with the Columbia name."

It would be understandable if this rivalry were addressed in a subsection detailing the intricate relationship between Columbia University and Barnard College. However, this is certainly not "general information," nor a prominent view held on either campus.

discussion on Columbia University talk page

Hi, FYI, there is a dispute on the Columbia University talk page about the inclusion of "Barnard jokes" as part of the section on "University Traditions." Additional comments from other editors are welcome. Best, Matan 16:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Barnard is not one of Columbia's undergraduate schools

I reverted the changes made by 207.237.214.24. Barnard is not one of Columbia's undergraduate schools. The three schools that do fit this criteria are Columbia College, SEAS, and GS. Barnard is an affiliate, like Teachers College.

Barnard's relationship to Columbia is weird; no question about it. Yes, Columbia awards Barnard's (and TC's) degrees. Yes, it's entirely proper for a résumé to read "AB from Barnard College, Columbia University." But no, it's not proper for the author of that résumé to claim that she "went to Columbia" for her undergraduate degree, because Barnard is not a Columbia undergraduate school. Yeechang Lee 18:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Category:Barnard College alumni

Category:Radcliffe College alumni has the Harvard Alumni and Ivy League Alumni categories, but I'm not sure if similar categories belong in the Barnard Alumni category due to Barnard's relationship with Columbia. Does anyone have any input on this? Cornell Rockey 21:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If Columbia and Barnard ever to merge the way Harvard and Radcliffe did, then yes. Until then, no. Yeechang Lee 01:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, Yeechang Lee, that is your opinion. You stated earlier that the diplomas are from "Barnard College, Columbia University." As such, Barnard alumna should, and do, belong to the CU alumni category. Best, Matan 17:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

For me, I think this speaks to a lack of a clear explanation of the Columbia-Barnard relationship. The wikipedia article on Barnard gives it about 2 sentances, and it isn't clear at all. Could some one with some understanding of this clear it up? Cornell Rockey 21:21, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It is tricky. As I wrote before, it'd be incorrect for a Barnard grad to say that she "went to Columbia," even though a résumé could properly read "Bachelor of Arts from Barnard College, Columbia University," because she attended Barnard—a separate institution—for her undergraduate education; all Columbia did was to issue the degree. Also, Barnard and Columbia women compete together on the same Ivy League athletic teams despite Barnard's not being a member, thanks to a special exemption.

To respond to the comment above regarding "all Columbia did was issue the degree," I have to wholeheartedly disagree. A Barnard administration may not be a Columbia administration, but a Barnard education is very much a Columbia education. As a Barnard student, I took as many classes at Columbia as I did at Barnard. I would say it was 50/50, and I wouldn't be surprised if a Columbia student had the same ratio of Columbia/Barnard classes. The undergraduate courses are very much integrated between the two schools, so it would not be surprising to find a Columbia student who took more classes at Barnard than Columbia, or vice versa. Moreover, Barnard professors must ultimately be approved by Columbia to be granted tenure, just like other Columbia professors. As such, a Barnard degree is very much a Columbia degree, and a Barnard graduate is very much a Columbia graduate. That is not to say that a Barnard graduate is right or wrong in saying that she graduated from Columbia, because that depends on your definition. Technically, she graduated from both Columbia and Barnard (as stated on her diploma and transcript), so she can choose to say either, or both. She may say she graduated from Barnard to outline the institution as independent of Columbia, or she may say she graduated from Columbia to outline her degree as issued by the Trustees of Columbia University. It is up to the individual to decide whether she wants to say "Barnard" or "Columbia," or both. Admittedly, the Barnard-Columbia relationship is complex and hard to define on the administrative level, but in terms of educational quality, there should be no debate that Barnard and Columbia students share and benefit from the same resources, making their educational experience essentially the same. Sevenkeysfm (talk) 23:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of where classes were taken, you filled out an application for Barnard College.

I still vote "no" on the category-inclusion question, although it is a close call. The closest analogy I can come up with right now (and it's a pretty lame one) is to ask whether someone who graduated from UC Riverside or Irvine can say he "went to Cal." That's technically true in the sense that Riverside, Irvine, and Berkeley are all part of the larger University of California system, but in practice we'd all agree that that's misleading. With Barnard and Columbia, the institutional gulf is even larger; where Riverside, Irvine, and Berkeley are all part of the same university system, Barnard and Columbia are separate schools with separate Presidents, Boards of Trustees, and endowments. Columbia just happens to issue the Barnard degree, that's all.

Bah. While as a guy I definitely did not mind having hordes of spaghetti-strap tank top-wearing Barnard women everywhere around me (2400 Barnard women plus the roughly 50:50 men:women Columbia undergraduate student body; although the engineering school is 20:80, it's only 1000 students total), this whole discussion just underlines how it was a mistake that Barnard turned down the Columbia merger proposal. By all rights there should today be a single "Columbia-Barnard" undergraduate school with Broadway at its heart, as opposed to the baroque arrangement that exists in its place. Yeechang Lee 09:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

criticism and controversy

Someone appears to edit this page on behalf of the college administration. mentions of the El Haj controversy have been vandalized.

There is little point in having articles on colleges on Wikipedia if they are edited and vetted to make contain only the information that the college wants to prblicize. Lida LeClair and Abu El Haj attracted natinal attention. there are probably other scandals.

I agree. The mention that Barnard receives Columbia degrees is also misleading. The Barnard degrees carry the Columbia seal, but it is not a de facto Columbia degree. And no, barnard alumni are not given Columbia alumni status. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.86.217.4 (talk) 14:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Untrue. As Barnard itself states, "Barnard students receive the diploma of the University signed by the presidents of both institutions . . . the practice of having students receive the degree of the University." YLee (talk) 17:37, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

NYT 1912 article

This is 1912 article about the college in the NYT Dy yol (talk) 05:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Formatting

Is it possible to move [[Image:Barnard College, NYC IMG_0961.JPG]] so that it doesn't shove the contents box into the middle of the page? If the image shows the front of the main building, perhaps it could be incorporated into the infobox - if not, maybe it belongs further down. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Advertisement? NPOV?

The current version does not seem at all like an ad to me, so I removed the Advert tag. The NPOV disputes that were raised on this talk page seem to have been resolved, so I did not put in an NPOV tag, but I am mentioning this here, in case someone else wants to insert one. Peter Chastain (talk) 11:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Barnard degree is NOT 'awarded' by Columbia University

Here is the list of degrees awarded by Columbia University http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202007-2008.htm

Barnard very clearly states that "students earn the degree of [Columbia University.]" Your list of degrees is not very clear or to the point. Do you have additional evidence supporting your assertion? --ElKevbo (talk) 01:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

It does not matter what Barnard says. If Columbia says Barnard degree is not awarded by Columbia then Barnard degree is not awarded by Columbia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 01:11, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

But you haven't established that is the case. Please find something more helpful than an obscure and incomprehensible table. --ElKevbo (talk) 01:15, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Columbia University Office of the Registrar and Office of the Provost has no record of Barnard students. Columbia University has never stated that Barnard degree is awarded by Columbia. Please show me a statement "from Columbia University" saying Barnard degree is awarded by Columbia. Please find something more helpful and clear than obscure and incomprehensible sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 01:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You still haven't shown us anything other than one table that isn't at all clear. Furthermore, I'm puzzled by your belligerence. --ElKevbo (talk) 01:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

You still have not shown us clear evidence that Barnard degree is Columbia degree. and Why do you care so much about this ?

Barnard graduates can NOT join Columbia University Alumni Association

Barnard graduates can NOT join Columbia University Alumni Association —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 00:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The by-laws of the association make no mention of this. They state that "all persons having been enrolled as degree candidates for at least one year at Columbia University or having received any degree from COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY or having for at least one term been a member of the TRUSTEES OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK shall automatically be members of CAA and shall be eligible for membership in, and to hold any office within CAA." Given the above section that establishes that Barnard alumna receive Columbia degrees, this seems to imply that are eligible for membership.

Can you please provide a specific reference supporting your assertion? Further, can you please explain why in the world this is important or even interesting? --ElKevbo (talk) 01:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Here is the link from Columbia University Alumni Association

https://alumni.columbia.edu/help/index.html#uni_pw_faq

Who is eligible for the Columbia Alumni Association (CAA) UNI-protected services? All graduates from Columbia University are eligible. Graduates from affiliate schools (Barnard, Teachers College, Union Theological Seminary, and Jewish Theological Seminary) are not eligible.

Barnard degree is not awarded by Columbia University and Barnard degree holders are not Columbia graduates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 01:17, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see where that says that Barnard alumna are not eligible to join this organization, just which services they can use. A more clear and direct statement seems to be necessary. --ElKevbo (talk) 01:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

1) It says """Graduates from affiliate schools (Barnard, Teachers College, Union Theological Seminary, and Jewish Theological Seminary) are not eligible."""

2) If you know any Barnard graduate ask her if she can join CAA.

3) Look at page 22 of http://alumni.columbia.edu/connect/caa_conbylaws_2007.pdf Barnard Alumni Association is NOT part of CAA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 01:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits to the article

The recent edits to the article are argumentative and—if they turn out to be true, which has not yet been established—poorly written.

Please stop restoring the changes until they can be verified with verifiable reliable sources. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 02:43, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Please don't change my editing until reliable sources are provided. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 02:58, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

That's not the way Wikipedia works. "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." See WP:PROVEIT. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 03:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

As I wrote, Wkiwoman, the ball is in your court. Find some verifiable reliable sources, and write some reasonably sensible text. The material you keep reverting is nonsensical, argumentative, poorly written, and unencyclopedic. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 21:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Some pertinent facts to ground the discussion:

From About Barnard

• "A liberal arts college for women in New York City founded in 1889. Barnard has its own campus, faculty, administration, trustees, operating budget, and endowment."

• "In 1900 it was included in the educational system of Columbia University with provisions unique among women's colleges: it was governed by its own trustees, faculty, and dean, and was responsible for its own endowment and facilities, while sharing instruction, the library, and the degree of the university."
• "About 90% of Barnard students live in 11 Barnard residence halls and 4 Columbia residence halls;"
• "most students take their meals either on Barnard's campus in Hewitt Cafeteria or on Columbia's campus at the John Jay Cafeteria."
• "Barnard students compete in the NCAA Division I and the Ivy League through the Columbia/Barnard Athletic Consortium"

Course Catalog:

• "Barnard is both an independently incorporated educational institution and an official college of Columbia University—a position that simultaneously affords it self-determination and a rich, value-enhancing partnership."
• "The College grew out of the idea, first proposed by Columbia University’s tenth president, Frederick A.P. Barnard, that women have an opportunity for higher education at Columbia. Initially ignored, the idea led to the creation of a “Collegiate Course for Women.” Although highly-qualified women were authorized to follow a prescribed course of study leading ultimately to Columbia University degrees, no provision was made for where and how they were to pursue their studies. It was six years before Columbia’s trustees agreed to the establishment of a college for women."
• "In 1900, Barnard was included in the educational system of Columbia University with provisions unique among women’s colleges: it was governed by its own Trustees, Faculty, and Dean, and was responsible for its own endowment and facilities, while sharing instruction, the library, and the degree of the University."
• "In 1998, Barnard College and Columbia University amended and extended the longstanding agreement for cooperation between the institutions, an agreement which remains unique in higher education. Barnard stands as an independent college for women with its own curriculum, faculty, admissions standards, graduation requirements, trustees, endowment, and physical plant. At the same time, Barnard and Columbia share resources, thereby giving students open access to the courses, facilities, and libraries of both schools."

Given these facts, I would support the disputed assertion that "Barnard students receive a Columbia degree" even if they are substantially independent in other regards. This is only to say that the independence or affiliation between the institutions with other regards (alumni association, accreditation, etc.) cannot be used to establish the basis for "receiving a Columbia degree" because it is clearly a complex relationship. If Barnard says it's a Columbia degree, it's a Columbia degree. Madcoverboy (talk) 17:26, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Columbia web sites say Barnard is NOT part of Columbia and Barnard degrees are not awarded by Columbia. It does not matter what Barnard says. Columbia University denies that Barnard is part of Columbia. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/-- Barnard WAS included in the Columbia's education system, but not any more (Madcoverboy's claims are all written in PAST TENSE.) Wkiwoman (talk) 04:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

First, please stop making blanket reverts without edit summaries. Second, could you point out where that page says any such thing?

According to this page, the degrees come from the University. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 04:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Please look at the following web site from Columbia University Office of the PROVOST http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/-- Columbia University NEVER says that Barnard degrees are awarded by Columibia. and Barnard is NOT official college nor school of Columbia. Barnard is an independent institution affiliated with Columbia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 05:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

That page is the Columbia University Statistical Abstract. It doesn't say anything about who gets Columbia degrees. Do you mean this page: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees and certificates awarded 2008-2009.htm ? It doesn't mention Barnard, but Barnard's absence isn't proof of anything. You're "reading into" the chart something that isn't there. I showed you a page that says Barnard students got Columbia degrees (at least as of April 2001). Can you find anything that says the practice of Columbia issuing degrees to Barnard graduates has ended? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Barnard can claim anything they want. but Columbia NEVER agreed with Barnard's claim. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm In this link Barnard is NOT included in UNIVERSITY TOTAL.

Please show me Columbia's web site that says Barnard degrees are awarded by Columiba —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 05:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I linked to it above. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Please take a few moments to read the text of the article before you make another revert. The text you are reverting to says (a) Barnard graduates don't get Columbia degrees and (b) Barnard graduates do get Columbia degrees. It also says that Barnard has an "alumni" association, which it doesn't (it's an alumnae association). — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I see you still haven't read the nonsense you're reverting to, and you're replacing sourced information with unsourced.

Your theory that Barnard's absence from the Columbia list indicates that Columbia doesn't issue degrees to Barnard graduates is an example of original research, and it's not allowed. As I wrote, find a source that says Barnard and Columbia changed their relationship and Columbia no longer issues degrees to Barnard graduates. As it has been for weeks, the ball is in your court. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

You still have not shown me any proof that Barnard degrees are awrded by Columbia. You only showed me one line from Barnard's promotional web site. Please show me official link that says Barnard degrees are awarded by Columbia. Here is another link that shows that Barnard is NOT official school of Columbia and Barnard degrees are NOT awarded by Columbia. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/facts/FACTS2008.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 05:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

"One line from Barnard's promotional web site" is one line more than you have shown me. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 06:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Please show me official sources only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 06:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

This is becoming farcical. Wkiwoman, you can't move the goalposts every time we present evidence disproving your point. We have repeated statements from official sources explicitly stating that the Barnard awards a Columbia University degree. You have presented not a single source that explicitly states the opposite and you can't use a lack of evidence to demonstrate proof. If the edit warring and unproductive discussion persists, I'm going to recommend administrative action. Madcoverboy (talk) 22:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

I have shown you several sources, from Columbia University's official web site, which very clearly states that Columbia U do NOT award degreess to Barnard students. My sources include Columbia U Office of the Provost, Office of Planning and Research, Office of the Registrar, Columbia Univeristy Alumni Association.... etc.

You have NOT shown us any Columbia U documents stating that Barnard degrees are awarded by CU. It does not matter what Barnard claims. If Columbia Univeristy says no degrees are awarded to Barnard graduates, then NO DEGREES ARE AWARDED TO BARNARD GRADUATES--Wkiwoman (talk) 00:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please take off your CapsLock and stop shouting. You have yet to provide a single source that "says" Columbia doesn't provide degrees to Barnard graduates. What you've provided are sources that don't list Barnard graduates. The absence of Barnard from those lists is not evidence of anything. Find a specific statement that makes your point. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 03:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Absence of Barnard degree on 'List of Degrees Awarded by Columbia U' is a clear meaning that Barnard degrees are not awarded by Columbia University (e.g. NYU degree is not on the list). You have NOT provide a single source that "says" Columbia award degrees to Barnard graduates from Columbia U web site. Barnard is not even one of colleges of Columbia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 05:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

No, Barnard's absence from the list is clear evidence of ... Barnard's absence. Nothing more. I'm tired of going in circles. I told you at the top of this thread that the burden of proof was on you. You have not yet provided a single source that affirmatively supports your changes. Please spend less time shouting and more time looking for sources. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Here's a 2009 Barnard Data Book (PDF format) that says "Barnard students receive a Columbia University degree" (p. 3 [page 7 of the PDF]). Here's a summary of the Columbia-Barnard Intercorporate Agreement that says "Barnard college degrees are officially granted by the Trustees of Columbia University, the same body that grants degrees to all Columbia students. This is despite Barnard's status as an affiliate school as opposed to an undergraduate school of the university itself." (Note that, because it's a wiki, this page is not considered a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes—but it demonstrates that you're wrong.) — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 06:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Again those sources are from Barnard College ( & wiki are you serious ?). You have not yet provided a single source from Columbia University's official web site. Many of what Barnard claims are wrong. Barnard web site even claims that 'Barnard is official college of Columbia', which is completely wrong. Please provide a reliable source from Columbia University's official documents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 13:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:BURDEN. You have the responsibility to prove that your statements are true, something I've been asking you to do for two weeks now. Please put up or shut up. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 21:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Since you are claiming that Barnard degree is awarded by Columbia, please provide official source from Columbia University. You have not provided a single source from Columbia's official document. You should provide evidence from Columbia's web site for any claim involving Columbia. The entire Columbia U web site( which is really huge) never mentioned that Barnard degrees are awarded by Columbia. Barnard web site is full of wrong information ( therefore unreliable). For example, Barnard claims that Barnard college is official college of Columbia. However, Columbia's official web site denies such claim. http://www.columbia.edu/prospective_students/index.html http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/university/academic Columbia University comprises three undergraduate colleges ... CC/SEAS/GS only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 22:19, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:BURDEN. I've provided reliable sources that support my statements. You have yet to provide a single reliable source that supports yours. It's been more than two weeks. Put up or shut up. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 22:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I have provided several official sources and you have not provided any evidence. If you want to claim somthing it should be accompanied by official and realiable source.--Wkiwoman (talk) 22:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your problem is, but I've provided several sources, and so has Madcoverboy. I've asked uninvolved Wikipedia editors to comment. It seems pointless to go on speaking with somebody as obviously detached from reality as you are. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 22:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Please stop personal attack and use only official and reliable sources. I don't understand why you are keep using the unreliable sources. Barnard is not even official college of Columbia. (e.g. Barnard website claims that Barnard is Official College of Columbia but Columbia denies such claim) and, Since Columbia denies that Barnard is official college of Columbia,...... well.. everyone knows the anwer. --Wkiwoman (talk) 23:18, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

stop edit warring, please.

I full-protected this article for a week in lieu of issuing WP:3RR warnings to the editors who have been actively reverting the article in recent days.

Please outline the problem and reach a consensus. I won't be watching this page, if consensus is reached before a week, come to my talk page so I can unprotect it. If the fighting continues, take it to the appropriate noticeboard and/or seek dispute resolution. tedder (talk) 07:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I have protected the article again. Please discuss the issues on the talk page before making or requesting (via the {{editprotected}} template) any further changes to the article. Ask for a Wikipedia:Third opinion if needed. Continued edit warring and violation of the 3 revert rule (WP:3RR) is considered disruptive and may lead to having your editing privileges blocked. I hope this doesn't come to that. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 06:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

RfC: Recent changes

There is an on-going dispute concerning Barnard's relationship with Columbia University. See this diff.

Please see #Recent edits to the article for details concerning the contentious matter of sources.

Any suggestions out of this mess would be appreciated. Thank you. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 21:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

On the sole issue of who gives the degrees, I saw that Wkiwoman was looking for proof from a reliable Columbia source. Perhaps this document, a Report from the Task force on Undergraduate Education from April of 2009. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/vpaa/docs/TFUE2009.pdf. Page 8 states that "The agreement includes a key provision which stipulates that Barnard students would receive a Columbia degree and be permitted to take upper-level courses at the University." Hopefully this document can help resolve the dispute and assure Wkiwoman that Barnard students do, in fact, get Columbia degrees. Best, Matan (talk) 03:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Good find. That appears to be definitive on the issue of Columbia/Barnard degrees. --ElKevbo (talk) 03:32, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Malik and I have both provided ample, reliable sources clearly and explicitly stating the Barnard degrees are awarded by Columbia University. It is increasingly clear that Wkiwoman is attempting to push not only push her (?) clear POV on the article, but a demonstrably incorrect one at that. Wkiwoman has repeatedly failed to demonstrate any factual basis for her argument and, if anything, the RfC should be over this editor's on-going conduct. Madcoverboy (talk) 03:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to seem like a "sore winner", but why is a Columbia University source "better" than the multiple Barnard College sources that have been presented? A woman [i.e., women's college] can say something over and over, but it only becomes credible when a man says it? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 04:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Nah. I'm just hoping that since this is an incontrovertible Columbia source it will satisfy Wikiwoman and we can call move on with our lives and editing. :) --ElKevbo (talk) 05:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

When describing Barnard degree, we should note the following. 1) Barnard College is not official college of Columbia Univeristy. ( everyone accept this ?) 2) Barnard degrees are not recognized by Columbia University office of the Provost. (not listed on the 'Degrees awarded by Columbia University' 3) Barnard graduates can NOT join Columbia Univeristy Alumni Association(CAA). CAA Constitution and Bylaws states that 'All persons having been enrolled as degree candidates for at least one year at Columbia University or having received any degree from COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY or having for at least one term been a member of the TRUSTEES OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK shall automatically be members of CAA and shall be eligible for membership....' 4) Barnard students are never matricuated at Columbia U etc...

I also want to ask the meaning of 'receive a Columbia degree'. Honorary degree holders also 'receive a Columbia degree'. But honorary degree is not recognized as official degree of Columbia. Barnard degree is similar to Honorary degree ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 05:16, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

No, Wkiwoman, we should not note that. This is an encyclopedia article about Barnard College. It isn't a polemic about what Barnard is not. If you have an axe to grind, take it somewhere else. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 05:28, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Malik Shabazz Please stop personal attack. Wiki article is not a place for your personal opnions. We should include all neutral view of the barnard degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 15:04, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

All the official sources we've cited above specifically and explicitly contra-indicate every single point you've proposed. (1) "Barnard is both an independently incorporated educational institution and an official college of Columbia University"[1]; (2) "governed by its own trustees, faculty, and dean, and was responsible for its own endowment and facilities, while sharing instruction, the library, and the degree of the university." [2], (3) "All persons having been enrolled as degree candidates for at least one year at Columbia University or having received any degree from COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY... shall automatically be members of CAA and shall be eligible for membership in, and to hold any office within CAA" [3] and "All Columbia University Alumni, including degree-holders from Barnard College and Teachers College, are eligible for membership (in the Columbia Club), as well as current Columbia faculty and administrators, certificate holders, and full-time graduate and undergraduate students." [4]; (4) that's because Barnard has its own administration, trustees, etc. The only non-neutral view here is your on-going and completely unsubstantiated campaign to completely exclude Barnard from Columbia's identity. Madcoverboy (talk) 16:11, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Wkiwoman, I join Malik Shabazz and Madcoverboy here. No one is attacking you personally. You are simply bringing a biased POV and ignoring citations proving you are wrong, citations that you yourself asked for. Best, Matan (talk) 18:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is the official schools of Columbia University http://www.columbia.edu/prospective_students/index.html http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/university/academic Barnard is NOT official school of Columbia but an affiliate of Columbia. --Wkiwoman (talk) 04:06, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you even read what you write ? Please read again, Barnard graduates can NOT join Columbia University Alumni Association (CAA), because the membership reauires Columbia University degree. received any degree from COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY... shall automatically be members of CAA Barnard graduates can not automatically be members of CAA.

Columbia University Club is open to Non-degree students, certificate holders, staffs, etc. That is why Barnard graduates can join Columbia Club.--Wkiwoman (talk) 04:32, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

And you have still provided no positive evidence clearly documenting your asserted counterfactual. I'm done feeding this troll. Madcoverboy (talk) 04:58, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you even know that Columbia University Club is different from Columbia Alumni association ? You manipulated the membership requirement of two different organizations(CAA vs. Club) and tricked us. Please provide honest and sincere response only. Or do you have difficulty understanding the difference between CAA and Club ? --Wkiwoman (talk) 05:20, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Per this, a Barnard graduate, Pauline Lem, is a member of CAA's board. I think this settles the matter. Tim Song (talk) 03:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Likewise, CAA recognizes Barnard College graduates as "Alumni Medalists" every year. 2009, 2008, 2007. Madcoverboy (talk) 06:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

One issue here is Wikiwoman is arguing that the lack of evidence from Columbia is evidence against the existence of evidence from Barnard. That is not how WP works; you need to find a source that directly contradicts the information. What Wikiwoman is arguing is WP:Original Research. She is saying, "This information is not listed on the Columbia website, so if they don't say it, then it isn't true." The only valid source that she could use is something from Columbia or elsewhere that specifically says, "Barnard degrees are not Columbia degrees." If there is something like that, then a more in-depth discussion of whether there is a copntroversy here should begin. Otherwise, I think the information provided by Madcoverboy and and Malik is properly sourced and not challenged by any directly verifiable information. Angryapathy (talk) 16:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

from Barnard's website as of when I write this: "Barnard students receive the diploma of the University signed by the presidents of both institutions,". "The University" refers to Columbia. Barnard is not referred to as a university but as a college, affiliated with Columbia University. I would consider this adequate proof of the degree emanating from Columbia as opposed to Barnard. No evidence that I have seen points to the contrary. Valley2city^‽ 03:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Barnard degree is like honorary degree. Honorary degrees/Barnard degrees are conferred at the Columbia University commencement but both are not counted as official degree awarded by Columbia. Barnard is not even official school of Columbia http://www.columbia.edu/cu/opir/abstract/degrees%20and%20certificates%20awarded%202008-2009.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 02:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

CAA Board is different from CAA. CAA Board membership does not require Columbia degree but CAA membership requires Columbia degree. Columbia degree holders become CAA member automatically. Is there any Barnard graduates who became CAA member automatically  ?

Alumni status are often given to non-degree holders. For example, participants at executive educaiton program at Business schools (including Harvard, Stanford, Columbia) receive Alumni status even if they don't receive degrees. Harvard medical school students who took MIT courses ( at HST program) receive MIT alumni status even if they don't get a degree from MIT (they even get alumni award from MIT). --Wkiwoman (talk) 02:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Fine. "Barnard graduates are eligible to join the Columbia Alumni Association", from [5]. Tim Song (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

That is not official CAA web site. Official Web site says: All graduates from Columbia University are eligible. Graduates from affiliate schools (Barnard, Teachers College, Union Theological Seminary, and Jewish Theological Seminary) are not eligible. https://alumni.columbia.edu/help/index.html#uni_pw_faq —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 03:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• Are you actually suggesting that Barnard College affirmatively spread misinformation to her graduates? Especially a piece that is so easy to prove or disprove? BTW, you are quoting a section on receiving UNI-protected services, which is based on Columbia's IT system - Barnard students have their own system so it makes sense. This is obviously not the same as joining the CAA. Stop quoting material out of context. According to the Bible, Judas hanged himself (Matt. 27:5) and Jesus said “Go and do likewise” (Luke 10:37). Tim Song (talk) 03:48, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Please read the sentence again. Barnard graduates don't belong to the category of All graduates from Columbia University —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 03:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

• Exactly my point. You find one document that says "all Columbia graduates can join"; you find another, unrelated document, defining "all Columbia graduates" to exclude Barnard grads in a totally unrelated context - computer accounts! You then chain those together to claim that Barnard grads cannot join CAA. Classic original research by synthesis, and in this case not even right. Tim Song (talk) 04:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

If you know any Barnard graduate ask her if she is automatically member of CAA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 04:07, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I made two separate claims. First claim is about CAA membership. Second claim is about how CAA defined the category of 'All Columbia Graduates', to which Barnard does not belong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 04:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Out of patience

I can't speak for anyone else but I've lost patience with Wikiwoman. Her constantly-shifting goal posts, insistence on original research and synthesis, and unwillingness to accept that our bedrock here is not Truth but Verifiability make this a pointless conversation, IMHO. Additionally, her unwillingness to learn and follow community norms such as signing and indenting posts makes communication even more frustrating and difficult.

What makes this even more frustrating is that buried in Wikiwoman's arguments is a kernel of truth that is being lost: the relationship between Columbia and Barnard (and presumably Teacher's College and the other similar units) is complex and a bit confusing. Some of the sources we've located in this discussion do appear to contradict one another or at least add more confusion than clarity. I'm afraid that as we have resisted Wikiwoman's ever-shifting and frustrating arguments we have erred on the opposite extreme position from hers when the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I am relatively comfortable with how the article stands on this issue right now. But I recommend letting this lie for a few weeks as we all withdraw so we can return with a fresh perspective and open minds. --ElKevbo (talk) 04:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Your major source, the Barnard web site, is full of wrong info. For example, Barnard web site claims that Barnard is 'official college of Columbia'. This is wrong. Columbia University officially acknowledgs only three undergraduate schools, CC,SEAS, and GS. http://www.columbia.edu/prospective_students/index.html

Please provide verifiable and reliable sources only. Web sites with wrong info is not acceptable. --Wkiwoman (talk) 17:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place to right Great Wrongs^tm or promote The Truth^tm. If Barnard's official website were not a reliable source of information about Barnard, why is Columbia's official website better? Or, are you saying that Columbia tolerated such a obvious falsehood? Tim Song (talk) 17:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Are you claiming that 'Barnard is official college of Columbia University' is a true statment ??? Columbia denies the Barnard's claim. http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/admissions/university/academic Only three schools(CC,SEAS,GS) are recongnized as official undergrad schools of Columbia. --Wkiwoman (talk) 17:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I've reported Wkiwoman's continuing edit warring in the hopes that she is blocked or otherwise dissuaded from continuing to edit war. --ElKevbo (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

The truth #1 about Barnard is that : Barnard is NOT official college of Columbia University. It should be included at the article. Everyone accept this ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wkiwoman (talk • contribs) 17:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

No. First, the article is not "what Barnard is not"; second, you have yet to cite a reliable source unaccompanied by original research. Tim Song (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Motion to close

It seems to me that the consensus is quite clear. By my count, 7 out of 8 editors who commented reject Wkiwoman's position; the lone exception being themselves. Can we close this RFC? Tim Song (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Support closing and additionally move to remind editors not to feed the troll. Madcoverboy (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt your spat

Would somebody please insert a redlink for Jessie Wallace Hughan — I'm getting ready to write her bio tomorrow. Carrite (talk) 03:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It's actually a blue link now. Look how much effort you all have wasted on this talk page. It's sad. Carrite (talk) 16:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Current page protection

As a result of activity on 28 October, I reinstated full protection of this article to prevent further edit waring until the issues are resolved. Although I in no way defend wikiwoman's mode of operation, I do see what appears to be some inconsistencies and subtleties that should not be ignored. That is why I have not yet imposed a block.

I see that there is now a motion to close the RFC above, but I do not see a clear statement of consensus. I think it would be wise to summarize the key questions along with brief statements of the proposed consensus position. That way, any further editing that is performed that conflicts with that consensus can be more clearly evaluated by others so that appropriate action can be taken. Once consensus is documented, I (or another admin) will unprotect the article. (I can also unprotected it sooner, if asked.)

That said, I would also encourage the editors involved here to continue to explore the issues with an open mind, understanding that not everything is black and white. For example, there may be subtle differences between a "Columbia degree", a degree awarded by Columbia (or its trustees), and a degree awarded by Barnard but authorized by Columbia. Also, the similarities and differences between Barnard diplomas and those of other Columbia member colleges or affiliates may be of interest. Since, the relationship between Barnard and Columbia seems to be a topic of particular interest, perhaps it warrants its own section, where different aspects of the relationship and any apparent inconsistencies can be discussed. I personally do not think there is anything wrong with acknowledging that sources conflict or are inconsistent. Of course, any potentially controversial changes should first be discussed here and I'd strongly suggest that other edits strictly follow the WP:BRD process. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 00:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I assume that you'll be recusing yourself from further action related to this article now that you are explicitly involved with it. --ElKevbo (talk) 00:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

As requested, I recuse myself and will take no further action. If you would like protection removed from this article, you can post a request at WP:RFPP#Current requests for unprotection. Another admin will evaluate the request. -- Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 00:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in letting the clock run out. No hurry. --ElKevbo (talk) 00:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I don’t know how a statement of consensus needs to be written or supported, so I recommend this one:

Following an editing war in October of 2009, a consensus has been found that Barnard degrees are awarded by the Trustees of Columbia University, and that its students are members of the Columbia community, as described in the Barnard Columbia Affiliation Agreement.

Best, Matan (talk) 02:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone have any feedback? I would love for us to reach a state of consensus. Best, Matan (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Barnard graduates can NOT join Columbia University Alumni Association (CAA), because CAA requires Columbia degree. --Wkiwoman (talk) 07:06, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Dress code

The article implies that the dress code is still in effect, since it does not report on the end of the dress code. It also appears to be POV=pushing by describing the overcoat in terms of a jilbab. As a matter of historic fact, I believe that a simple ordinary dress that extended beyond the knee was sufficient attire, and that a jibab was not required. I have search the University website and have googled Barnard College Dress Code without locating any present-day dress code. Could we clear up this confusion before prospective students drop Barnard from consideration because they don't own jibabs? Thanks. Racepacket (talk) 13:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Alumni Association

Just to satisfy myself, because the various webpages are unclear, I contacted the Columbia Alumni Association (CAA) and they responded that Columbia and Barnard maintain separate alumni data bases. A Barnard alumnus would be generally welcomed to attend a CAA event, but that they are not automatic CAA members. I have forwarded the email to the OTRS so that Wikipedia could have a record of this. Ticket#2009111910070021 I hope this helps resolve some of the confusion underlying the recent dispute. Thanks. Racepacket (talk) 20:26, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

AFAIK there is no such thing as a Barnard alumnus. :) Tim Song (talk) 05:30, 21 November 2009 (UTC)