Talk:Universe/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Regarding the spoken Version

The spoken version of this article is NOT computer generated, but human read by myself. Marmenta (talk) 04:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The Universe is NOT everything that exists

Sorry I tried to create an account but couldn't. So I commit to staying with this for however long it takes and will be open on this, I will do the research and the maths and help the project but:

The Universe is not everything that exists and Websters is incorrect in this, that this is obvious to me is a fundamental weakness of wiki. I will help fix this starting now as well.

We are now speaking openly about Multiverses and about gravity being unwrapped beyond the 'observable' Universe. So the 'Universe' is becoming the everyday 'observable universe' meaning 'non observable universe' is something else.

So we are growing into a nomenclature issue. In that the world, used to be the universe, but the universe is not, in everyday usage, now believed to be all that exists.

It seems to me that baryonic matter and associated non baryonic matter that is affected by the observable universe (or the inverse), is what we call now the universe.

So to be partially clear. Before the big bang is not the Universe (am I right), wrapped forces with no interaction in the observable universe are not in the universe. Dark matter interactions with other forces that are unwrapped in dark matter mulitverses but don't exist in any observable fashion in our universe are not in our universe.

So a better definition would be that the universe is all that exists and is observable, but that things that interact with our universe but are not observable (i.e. cannot be quantified in force interactions) are not in our universe, because their interactions are in our exoverse or mutliverse, but if a higgs boson has 80% of its interactions in another universe then it is not fully in our universe. OK and to lighten the tone, this does not include David Letterman. I know this is arcane but I am good (very very very good at maths), but lazy and I do believe that only about 200,00 people of all the people who have ever existed will understand this post. I also believe that the David Letterman element will reduce it to 50,000. However that is the wrong 50,000, how do we fix that there problem Pierse?

I suggest that the Universe is not all that exists, and we bound it in the same way that we bounded Ptolemy's map, as a definition of the extent of existence that was exceeded by our knowledge. Three quarks for Muster Mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.227.155 (talk) 01:02, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, but it really doesn't matter. We don't include original research, nor information for which we cannot find a reliable source. You were right to ask here on the Talk page, though--thank you. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 01:41, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The idea of a "multiverse" is already discussed in this article. --Christopher Thomas (talk) 03:34, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a source for all this? Pass a Method talk 11:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

The multiverse hypotheses (they are not "theories") have been around for years. In a way, they are like religion--since, to date, they cannot be observed. Even the magazine article Pass a Method cited used words like "may", "possibly" and "potential". Sure, some smart folks might find a way to prove the existence of parallel universes but, to be reported here, it needs to be a fact, covered by reliable, secondary sources.

Also, the mention of "various multiverse theories" should read "various multiverse hypotheses", since multiverse research hasn't yet risen to the level of "theory", or general acceptance, as in Theory of Gravity or Music Theory. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 20:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

For better or worse, theory and hypothesis should be used as they are from the sources, if any.—Machine Elf ¹⁷³⁵ 00:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

None of this matters. the WORD universe means 'ALL in ONE' or 'turned into one' where the ONE is a representation ove EVERYTHING so the universe is by definition EVERYTHING. anyone that says that the universe is not everything does not understand the entomology of the word. so here it is :) http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=universe&searchmode=none Δρ∈rs∈ghiη (talk) 13:15, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Language changes over time. Your claim about the word "universe" is exactly the same as claiming that there can't be anything smaller than an atom, since atoms are indivisible by definition. That was the original meaning of the word atom, but it no longer is. Now atom means something along the lines of "smallest chemical building block" or somesuch odd definition. The path of the word universe has been the same. From the original "all that is" to the current "that place where we live". — Gopher65_talk 13:47, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Getting back to the original subject of this thread, are we satisfied with the coverage of multiverses in this article? I feel that, with a section already devoted to the hypothesis, the article has quite enough about multiverses, and would probably be even better off without Tegmark's idle computations of the probability of doppelganger universes 10¹⁰¹¹⁵ meters away; a pretty trivial addition even in this arcane field. --Chetvorno^TALK 14:42, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The difficulty of defining universe

First of all I'm not sure of this has ever been discussed and didn't bother looking in the archives first. The reason I added "known existence" is because of the ideas of multiverses and alternate dimensions. In this view, our universe is just one of many and not the totality of all existence. Technically, would these other universes and dimensions not be considered to "exist" or are they simply not part of our existence? However, adding "known" may also discount things we have never directly observed but which we hypothesize may exist within the universe such as dark matter, dark energy, exotic matter, etc. Has any consensus ever been reached on a definition? Cadiomals (talk) 21:10, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

There are as many definitions of "universe" as there are people discussing it. By all means dig through the archives; I'm sure you'll find quite a few fascinating positions. Constant adjustment, adding of caveats, removing of caveats, tweaking, and so forth is why the lede eventually settled back on to a dictionary quote for its first sentence. The second sentence (at the time of my edit) noted other variants of the definition and gave citations for those too; the first definition wasn't presented as the only one, no worries.

Rather than returning to the old days of constant changes, let's cut to the chase and have an RFC about what the lede's first-paragraph text should be, and ping the various relevant wikiprojects to ensure sufficiently broad coverage. I'll even do the legwork for setting it up, if you want. Does this sound like a reasonable approach to the two of you who have been adjusting it so far? --Christopher Thomas (talk) 22:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

I tried removing the weasely "commonly defined as" and it was reverted. All articles are about the common definition. The only purpose of those words is to be weasely. Saying "<topic> is commonly defined as <definition>" is just a stupid way of saying "<topic> is <definition>". If there are variations on the definition then list them after the first sentence. Bhny (talk) 22:54, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

As has been repeatedly emphasized above, there are a huge number of different definitions of "universe". If all of them were listed after the first sentence, the intro would be longer than the current article. Using "commonly defined as" is not weaselly, it's used in such situations to limit the lead section to the most notable definition(s), leaving less important ones to be covered in the article. --Chetvorno^TALK 01:11, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

"commonly defined as" isn't used in well written articles. Bhny (talk) 03:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

And there's nothing wrong with writing an article about a single definition of the topic. There can always be another article "Universe in context of Multiverse" or whatever. If we really need to be inclusive then the definitions have to be in the lead. It can't have absurd waffle like "Definitions and usage vary..."! That tell doesn't help anyone. Bhny (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Since the article has a whole section covering various variations of the definitions of the concept of "universe" and their nuances, and the lede should reflect the content of the article, the "commonly defined as" phrase is completely warranted. It communicates to the reader that this definition is not set in stone and that the article will also cover variations. Note, that since a lot of the variations are rather subtle it is not viable to have separate articles on each variation.

Also, blanket statements like "XXX isn't used in well written articles" are not used in well argued discussions. ;-)

TR 10:15, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Τα όρια του σύμπαντος

Τα όρια του σύμπαντος

Αν πάρουμε ως δεδομένο ότι το γνωστό-άγνωστο σύμπαν έχει όρια αυτά τα όρια θα ήταν η απόλυτη τιμή ψύξης -273,15 C στην περίμετρο του,η οποία δεν έχει καταγραφεί πουθενά εώς τώρα στην αστροφυσική. Αυτά τα όρια εάν κατέρρεαν στο χωροχρονικό συνεχές με μιά μορφή εναλλασόμενης ή συνεχές συχνότητα αυξανόμενης ενέργειας τότε μοναχά δεν θα είμασταν εξαρτημένοι στον χωροχρόνο μας επειδή το υλικό-άυλο φώς αντανακλά και συνάμα φθείρει τα τείχη των -273,15 C.

Ουσιαστικά όμως εάν αμβλύνεται το σύμπαν μέσω της ίδιας ενέργειας που το διακατέχει τότε αμβλύνονται και τα όρια ..

Το ερώτημα όμως που μένει αναπάντητο είναι υπάρχουν όρια στα τείχη?

Η φυσική και η αστροφυσική μας αναφέρει πώς υπάρχουν όρια σε ότι περιορίζεται στο χώροχρονο και βάσει αυτού του χωροχρόνικου σύμπαντος δύναται να καταρρεύσουν και τα όρια των τειχών του..

Όμως άραγε πώς θα ήταν η ζωή μας χωρίς την εξάρτηση του χώρου? Βάσει της σύγχρονης φυσικής αυτό θα λεγόταν θάνατος ή κατάργηση των ύλικο-άυλων ενεργειακών σωμάτων. Με μιά άποψη θα έλεγα πώς η ζωή μας θα ήταν άπειρομεγενθυμένη στον άπειρο χώρο μας μέσα στον χρόνο επειδή το σύμπαν ρέει και έρεε για κάθε μορφή ενέργειας ενώ συνάμα δεν έπαψε ούτε και παύει ποτέ να υφίσταται απο την άπειροαρχή της δημιουργίας αυτού.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.26.155 (talk) 18:47, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Your talk about—best I can tell—"The Limits of the Universe" really doesn't belong here. This Talk page is for discussion of the universe ARTICLE, not the universe itself. Also, please remember this is the English Wikipedia; discussions should generally be in English, not Greek.

Thanks! — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 19:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

unintentional

My recent edit was an accident. I did not even know I had visited the page--JimWae (talk) 04:38, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

The universe is mysterious Bhny (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

93 billion light years in diameter - really?

The statement that the Universe "is believed to be at least 93 billion light years in diameter" is not a factual statement about the universe; the statement that the Universe "is at least 93 billion light years in diameter" is not adequately supported by the reference (or anything else); neither statement belongs in the article. Dr5t3v3 (talk) 08:38, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The reference literally states: "Today diameter of the observable universe is estimated to be 28 billion parsecs (about 93 billion light-years)."TR 12:22, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Exactly - estimated by who? Is there a citation? The reference is not a research article, or research of any form. It is pure opinion. Dr5t3v3 (talk) 02:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

The source is a textbook, which is a perfectly acceptable reliable source. Textbooks rarely give citations for the facts they present. That does not make the facts they present "pure opinion". Given the time frame, the estimate in the book is probably based of the WMAP 5 year data.TR 15:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Within the Big Bang model, how can the diameter of the universe be greater than about 27.5 billion lightyears (i.e., radius = age of universe from centre at speed of light)?? Unless expansion occurred faster than the speed of light???--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:09, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

It did. See Inflation (cosmology). — HHHIPPO 07:34, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I think you probably mean cosmic expansion rather than inflation - inflation was a specific phase in the very early universe. The key point is that the light or other radiation that we observe from the furthest visible objects (which ultimately means the cosmic microwave background radiation) was emitted 13.7 billion years ago, but during that time the universe has expanded so those objects are now about 46.5 billion light years distant, giving the observable universe a diameter of approximately 93 billion light years. So, yes, the space between us and the most distant objects is expanding at a rate that is numerically greater than the speed of light (although the two quantities are not really comparable). Gandalf61 (talk) 11:57, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I also had a read of Faster-than-light#Universal expansion earlier.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:05, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Interesting point to add...

I'm not able to come up with a way of phrasing this that would seem to fit into this article, but I have found an interesting point that may be worth mentioning:

http://news.yahoo.com/higgs-boson-particle-may-spell-doom-universe-152236961.html

The point of the article is that new research on the Higgs Boson seems to suggest that the Universe may eventually collaps in on itself, or ultimately be destroyed billions of years in the future. Again, I think this may be worth noting. Additionaly sources will be needed. -Poodle of Doom (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not that it will collapse in on itself in the classical sense, it's that a nucleation point could form, inside which the universe would to jump to a lower, more stable energy level. The nucleation point would expand outward at the speed of light, so a single "tear" wouldn't be enough to "destroy" the universe as we know it. — Gopher65_talk 00:27, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Still, wouldn't this be something relevant to add to the article? At that, you can see that my understanding of this isn't necessarily enough to add the point to the article. -Poodle of Doom (talk) 03:14, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm no expert in theoretical physics, but is this related to False vacuum#Vacuum metastability event? And since this page already links to Ultimate fate of the universe anyway, maybe this point should be mentioned in either one instead of here. Reatlas (talk) 07:41, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. My understanding of this work is that if we're in a false vacuum (probably are), a nucleation event is more likely than previously thought. — Gopher65_talk 22:51, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, the placemeant of the newly found info in the above mentioned articles would be better. However, I think it should be lightly alluded to here. -Poodle of Doom (talk) 05:02, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

Unsolved problems

The sentence "Physicists remain unsure about what preceded the Big Bang model and also the ultimate fate of the Universe" in the lede has multiple issues:

• What preceded the Big Bang model is not the question here, it's what preceded the Big Bang.
• It remains unclear if the second part (and also...) refers to what preceded or to unsure about.
• Physicists is unclear: some of them? all of them? How about non-physicists, are they sure?
• The question is actually a bit broader: it's not only what preceded the Big Bang, but first of all if preceding is a well-defined concept at all at that point.

The previous version, "What preceded the gravitational singularity before the Big Bang and the ultimate fate of the Universe remains an unsolved and speculative problem in physics", was in some respects better, but also had its issues:

• Talking about a gravitational singularity before the Big Bang is a bit questionable.
• Problems are not speculative, answers are.
• It would be nice to link to List of unsolved problems in physics, but that page doesn't mention the preceding the Big Bang part.

Here's a suggestion for another rephrasing: "What, if anything, preceded the Big Bang, and what will be the ultimate fate of the universe remain unsolved problems in physics." Any thoughts? — HHHIPPO 17:51, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree.

• If we remove "model" we are not being specific enough
• "Physicists" as worded gives a general perspective
• Gravitational singularity is unproven
• We should speak about physicists not physics. Pass a Method talk 19:18, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

The sentence is poorly constructed at best, misleading at worst. It needs to be reworded. 04:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gopher65 (talk • contribs)

1. Why is it unspecific? What else could it be confused with? Using the phrase "big bang model" is like prefixing every use of gravity and evolution with "the theory of".
2. Physics is an academic discipline, which physicists study. How exactly is "physicists" more general than "physics"?
3. Has been removed.
4. This is the same as number two. Reatlas (talk) 14:53, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I broke it into 2 sentences. I think it reads much better. I removed "model" as this is logically wrong. What preceded the "Big Bang Model" was another model (Solid State?). Bhny (talk) 15:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I can live with the new version, but still think physics would be better than physicists: it's not only physicists who wander about this question and are unsure what's the answer, it's also laypeople. So the statement is at least incomplete. If one interprets physicists as meaning all physicists, then it's also wrong: there are physicists who also are creationists and they feel pretty sure they know the answer. Of course one could also interpret it as some physicists, that's the 3rd problem: ambiguity. Unsolved problem in physics avoids all that. There's a reason we have an article List of unsolved problems in physics, but not List of things physicists are unsure about.

P.S.: Bhny, I guess you mean steady state, not solid state ;-) — HHHIPPO 18:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

haha yes Bhny (talk) 20:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Semantics: the "Universe" vs. a "universe"

This isn't a big deal, but I think it would be a good idea just to throw in a line about how the Universe is a proper noun that is capitalized if one refers to the universe in which we live. This contrasts with a "universe" which is a hypothetical or model cosmological object, such as the theory of there being more than one universe. PirtleShell (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Just a small mistake

It's actually, nothing, and I'm really sorry, I must come off as a miss "know-it-all", but I just want to tell you that, you've made a mistake with the translations. To be precise, in the "etymology, synonyms and definitions" section, in the third paragraph, where you say "Related terms were matter, (τὸ ὅλον, tò ólon, see also Hyle, lit. wood) and place (τὸ κενόν, tò kenón)." you are a little bit wrong. "τό κενόν" in greek, actually means "the vacuum" and it was used to describe... well, non other but the vacuum of space. What you're looking for is "χώρος" which is the exact translation of "place" (in physics)
Again, sorry to bother you :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.93.193 (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

"universe" common usage means EVERYTHING, so no "multi-verses"

i think whoever talks about multiple universes is violating the spirit of the word, since it is designed to indicate everything. those other aspects would merely be a subset of the universe, and referring to them as 'other universes' is a horrible description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.184.252.247 (talk) 22:20, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I kind of agree but unfortunately our opinions don't matter and we just have to go with our sources Bhny (talk) 22:48, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, like it or not, the word "universe" may be losing its connotation of "everything" and becoming associated with "our" contiguous section of spacetime, governed by our physical laws and the Big Bang theory. If other "universes" are a serious possibility, we need a word to distinguish them from our "universe", hence "multiverse". This is not an unusual situation in science, when names lose their original meaning. Before modern astronomy, didn't the term "Earth" or "World" originally mean "everything", just like "universe"? Now it just means our planet, one among many. --Chetvorno^TALK 09:32, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

"the observable universe, is about 93 billion light years in diameter"

Are you all sure about that? The universe is just 14.3 billion years old so I believe there is a typing or magnitude error in this article. As for the uni-verse vs. multiverse I've made a note with the term multiverse and I believe there's a mistake in vocabulary of some kind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.198.212.162 (talk) 19:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Due to general relativity, space can expand faster than the speed of light. The light from the farthest objects we can see left the objects within the age of the universe, 14.3 billion years ago, yet due to expansion the objects are now much farther apart than 14.3 billion light years. See Universe#History of the Universe and Observable universe. --Chetvorno^TALK 20:13, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The observable universe is approximately 93 billion light years/28 billion parsecs in diameter. That puts the visible distance from the observer to the most distant point at 46-47 billion light years away. From observable universe, "According to calculations, the comoving distance (current proper distance) to particles from the CMBR, which represent the radius of the visible universe, is about 14.0 billion parsecs (about 45.7 billion light years), while the comoving distance to the edge of the observable universe is about 14.3 billion parsecs (about 46.6 billion light years), about 2% larger."

As for multiverse and universe, a multiverse holds multiple universes, according to some theories. Our universal laws of physics may not apply to that which exists outside of our universe.Wzrd1 (talk) 20:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request.

 Done

The introduction contains an obvious error: "The farthest distance that it is theoretically possible for humans to see, called the observable universe, is about 93 billion light years in diameter." We can NOT observe ANYTHING at that distance. Claiming that it IS theoretically possible to see 93 Gly is first confusing, since the referenced distance should be a radius of 46.5 Gly from us and since NOTHING that is "now" at 46 Gly will ever be in our future light cone. Some of the objects that are "now" at 46 Gly, we can observe as they WERE at 13.5 Gya, but have since moved out of our area of observation (I am not sure I have that terminology right). Expansion of the Universe makes anything at 40 Gly beyond the 'edge' of our Universe (unless expansion stops or reverses). This article just simply needs to deal with the conflation of time and distance. It is space-time, you know. Bottom-line: There is NO theoretical possibility to see objects at 93 Gly. There is NO theoretical possibility to see objects at 46.5 Gly. We can "see" objects as they were at a distance of 13.5 Gly at a time of 13.5 Gya which because of the expansion of space-time we believe now are 46.5 Gly from us. It would be helpful to also note the theoretical furthest distance that a Supernova (which should be visible throughout the Universe) if it went off today, could be for its light to ever reach us. It might also be useful, but probably not in the introduction, to point out that if expansion ever stops, that in a static universe, eventually everything will be within our light cone, and our sky will be filled with light. And so, the "furthest possible observable" depends on assumptions about expansion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.189.74.11 (talk) 19:26, 31 July 2013 (UTC) I do not intend to argue with the definition of Observable Universe, but this article confuses what we can observe once the light has had a chance to get here with what we can observe now. Assuming that the average reader appreciates the difference between "what was, what is, and what will be" is an error. Things are dropping out of our observable volume of space-time, I think? I believe the figures I saw was about 20 Gly at which recessional velocity exceeds c, but am not sure... The other issue that was not addressed is that "for humans to see" is misleading. "Theoretically possible to observe with our telescopes" is better, imho, we can not "see" 93 G ly distances. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.189.74.11 (talk) 19:38, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I made a simple fix as per your ideas. Do you additional specific edit requests? Bhny (talk) 20:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

As the IP editor pointed out, the original sentence was jibberish. But the new sentence wasn't really any better, mostly because it's probably not possible to explain what "observable universe" means in a single short sentence. I simplified the sentence so that it is now technically correct. The term observable universe is better expanded upon in the appropriate section (and further expanded beyond that in its sub-article) rather than us attempting to squish an entire textbook's worth of explanatory material into the introduction. — Gopher65_talk 23:57, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

looks good, I'll mark this as done Bhny (talk) 03:50, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Tweaked this a bit. There is parallax, unapparent without precision instrumentation which ancients lacked. Student7 (talk) 22:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalisation

We need to establish a consensus whether "the [u|U]niverse", when it refers to our universe, is to be capitalised or not, and add an edit comment or perhaps even better a note visible to all explaining the established convention (house style) at Wikipedia. Considering that a lot of article titles such as Age of the universe use the lower-case convention, I propose we go with this one unless there are serious objections to this. I'm not attached to any specific solution, I just desire consistency and a consensus to help avoiding constant back-and-forth. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't care one way or the other either, but I've always been told - including in astronomy classes - that it was Universe (ours) and universe (general use). But conventions change over time, so who knows what the current convention is. — Gopher65_talk 00:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure either. In a similar context, try My country (Country?), right or wrong.... Same sort of thing IMO. There has to be a rule already existing for this sort of thing. Student7 (talk) 14:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Capitalization redux

The results of the recent move requests at Talk:Age of the universe, Talk:Shape of the universe, and Talk:God becomes the universe lead me to resurrect the proposal above that the word universe be lowercased in the body of this article. Note that it was brought up in those discussions that the Style Guide for NASA History Authors and Editors specifies that universe should be lowercase and that the word is also lowercase in the American Astronomical Society's list of keywords. Deor (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I still say it depends on the context. Not only whether you're talking about "the Universe" or "a universe", but whether or not you're specifically referring to our universe using its implied name (the Universe). I liken it to how you can refer to your father as "my dad", but still call out to him "hey Dad!" Whether or not the word is capitalized is contextual; it needs to be looked at on a sentence by sentence level. — Gopher65_talk 15:08, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - I'm with Gopher on this, but simply because that's the way they taught me to deal with proper nouns that can also be generic many years ago at grammar school. But if the guys who devote masses of time to this kind of thing have debated it, and NASA, god bless 'em, agree, then who am I to stand in the way of change? Seriously, we should do whatever the convention is, even if old dinosaurs like me find it a little jarring. Whatever we do we should do it consistently, though... Begoon ^talk 15:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The human fish

“Just as a fish may be barely aware of the medium in which it lives and swims, so the microstructureofempty space could be far too complex for unaided human brains”. - Lord Rees — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.197.229.5 (talk) 01:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The Universe includes You

Deciding about mentioning of the self as part of the Universe (defined as totality of existence). There is bias on the matter, as many think that the Universe is just about the astronomical model.

Discussion

This page about the Universe is currently missing an essential part. I added it and it got removed.

The Universe [...], including yourself

If anyone feels that his presence in the Universe is not real, or not relevant to the topic, let's talk about it. This page is about the Universe at Whole, as totality of existence, and not just about some limited models (theories/descriptions) of it.

The exclusion of the Self from the Universe is a common flaw of perception/interpretation that I feel we should signal explicitly. The interplay between the subjective Self and the objective Universe is the key to a more profound understanding. Relativity once accepted, makes all other theories dependent on their purpose (including astronomy).

In a broader sense, in its current form, this article gives the wrong impression that the Universe is ambiguously out there somewhere, in the galaxies that only astronomers see, or in the Physics lab where bosons are experimented or in some mathematicians mind where complex equations make sense.

Extremind (talk) 09:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

This article is about the astronomical concept of universe, it's scope does not include psychological, religious, or New Age definitions. --Chetvorno^TALK 10:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Totally agree with comments from Chetvorno above. Regards to all, David J Johnson (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Well yes, if we're doing that "agree" thing, I agree too. Including yourself, huh? How about including my cat, or my pocket fluff?

This is not a place to correct your personal "feeling" that "The interplay between the subjective Self and the objective Universe is the key to a more profound understanding." I'm not sure where that place would be, but I doubt that it's anywhere on an encyclopedia. Begoon ^talk 16:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

What would you rather say the purpose of an encyclopedia is, other than expanding the reader's consciousness? If your cat is equally important to that goal as a totally generic (and totally specific in the meanwhile) yourself, take your chance and make your plead to include it as well. Although you should at least prove that your cat (or your fluff) actually exists, first. I am not sure if you place thinking above feeling or if you are that special kind of man who speaks unbiased of all things as they really are, but your polemic tentative on this matter shows quite a personal perspective, I would say. Extremind (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The introductory phrase suggests that this article is rather about the ontological concept of Universe. Surely you are not suggesting that astronomy monopolizes the whole concept for itself, are you? Astronomy (as it is clearly mentioned as just just one of the models) did not invent the concept and neither does it exhaustively cover it. There are infinite aspects of the Universe that lie between the scales of macrocosm and microcosm, wouldn't you say? Extremind (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I suggest we'd first agree on a definite set of criteria for evaluating this matter. How about truthfulness and relevance, for example? Does anyone know that his presence in the Universe is not real, or not relevant? Dare I emphasize that the very presence of the reader themselves is the basic premise of an encyclopedia? Extremind (talk) 19:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:NOR Bhny (talk) 20:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

If you really want to play this game, I'll play: no, a reader's presence in the universe is not relevant to the existence of a Wikipedia article on the nature of said universe. Whether or not the alleged "you" who is reading the article existed, the universe would be, for the most part, basically the same. "Yourself" references a single individual (the person reading the words at any given moment). That one individual is not of significant importance to the concept of "universe", and certainly not any more significant than any other person. For example, would you accept the sentence, "The Universe [...], including yourself and Miley Cyrus." I would argue that neither "my" (the implied reader) nor "Miley Cyrus" are important enough for mention here. In policy terms, this falls under WP:UNDUE--mention of any single specific person, even by pronoun reference, is not due for this topic. Otherwise, theoretically, we'd go into every single article of this type and add something similar. For example, Earth includes the line "The planet is home to millions of species of life, including humans". Would you change that to say, "The planet is home to millions of species of life, including humans, one of which is you. And Miley Cyrus." I should hope not. The problem isn't original research, it's about deciding exactly what level of detail belongs in this article, and, sadly, "you" aren't (ain't? isn't?) at the level. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not playing any game here. I am trying to improve this article by making it more precise. Rhetoric is definitely not my thing. It fails to be constructive. I am not exactly sure what your point is. Your suite of analogies has some degree of inadequacy that I wish to mention, so that we stick to the fair side of any play and avoid any inappropriate inferences.

• The reader's presence is the only raison d'etre of any Wikipedia article, even to Wikipedia in general, I would say. Do you know any other?
• Yourself is not just a pronoun, as you tend to suggest by your reductive analogy with an alleged Miley Cyrus. Yourself is not just one individual, as you may also reductively suggest, and not even just a class of individuals, but it stands for quite an indefinite set of classes (humans, observers, wikipedians, scientists, extraterrestrials - just to name a few of the postures that your self might identify with). It references the concept of self and it implicitly involves the actual presence of the reader/observer/you. It is strange how some people place more emphasis on the existence of a word in a wiki page than on their own existence in the world. We may ask the Universe if you are significant to it at all, I am sure we can think of ways.
• Adding a word to this article is not a beginning of an avalanche to adding anything more to anywhere else. In your mind, maybe you are setting a precedent, but it is not the case. I would not change the page about the Earth, because I see no point, but your exaggeration is no argument for not improving a page of the Universe, where I see perfectly fit.
• This article is not about the most part or the basic part of the Universe at all. It is about the totality of it. Yes, the totality may be hard to grasp. But the totality of existence (as it is) leaves absolutely no doubt to any alleged me/you. It seems to me that you are not making a difference between what is (existence) and what you think (the alleged possibility that I, a reader might not be, for instance).Extremind (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

My view is that this article is primarily about the astronomical definition of the Universe. With the latest discussion we are getting into "new age" and individual (personal) aspects of the subject. I'm afraid that to go into this scenario is giving WP:UNDUE to a fringe theory. I suggest that the article should remain broadly as it is. Regards to all, David J Johnson (talk) 19:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

David, your point of view is already stated (and enforced by your action also), there is no need to repeat it.

• You might be confusing the totality of existence with the astronomical descriptions of the outer space. If it were not the case, this article would have a _astronomy suffix in the address bar, but it doesn't. Astronomy is just a model of the Universe and is correctly listed as such.
• Moreover, you may misplace your concerns from this talk page on the change that I have proposed. "The article should remain broadly as it is". Definitely. Let's not forget that we are not discussing a radical change, like you may want to suggest. We are talking here about adding one single word: yourself
• I am not sure why you bring up this New Age theory that I know nothing about, except if you want to make yourself a defender of a supposedly Obsolete theory. I care less for theory than for significance. There is nothing new agey about my/human presence in the Universe. And there is nothing questionable about it. My presence is a consequence of uncountable factors that have lead to my manifestation as it is.

As far as I’m concerned, there's still no reason to exclude yourself from this article, except some personal bias on the matter. Extremind (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

This article is correctly defined IMO.

I was wondering whether there might not be some definition in philosophy or mathematics that has a definition that includes the observer that might go into Universe (disambiguation). To my surprise, I stumbled across this: Quantum_mind–body_problem#Decoherence_and_modern_interpretations. Your thoughts? Student7 (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Nice catch. I would gladly agree with the alternative that this existing article be suffixed with _astronomy or _cosmology and a clean article of the Universe be abstracted further to treat the Universe as totality of existence in more nuanced aspects, linking down to all other theories. Extremind (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with David Johnson and Chetvorno and others. From personal observation, I am so cool that I am out of this world, so the universe does not yet include me (it tries), so I think sticking with the astronomical view is preferred.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

After you carefully observe the definition of Universe (as totality of existence) as well as some basics on logic, you might adjust your conclusion to either 1: you exist and are part of it; or 2: you don't exist, and neither your absurd point of view exists, case which I will kindly ask you to let the forces of Universe do what they need to do here, okay? And this is valid for all of you unexisting people. Get a sense of existence first and only then write about it. 79.119.101.176 (talk) 09:50, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Extremind, you need to stop pushing your nonsensical unsourced addition against consensus. Be satisfied. The article defines the universe as the "totality of existence"; that obviously includes each of us. --Chetvorno^TALK 16:31, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

According to WP:Consensus, I am the consensus here, even though you are many. In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing documentation in the project namespace. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever. Many pretexts, games, jokes and rhetoric have been invoked against reasoning, but no valid argument so far. This is just not about me or you or Miley Cyrus. Please cast your misunderstanding somewhere else. Wikipedia is just too important to shelter ignorance. Extremind (talk) 09:55, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

One person alone cannot simply say "I have consensus, all of the other people commenting are wrong." We have put forward many many valid arguments. The fact that you do not accept them does not mean that you get to declare that you are correct. The simple fact is that the person reading the encyclopedia is of no greater importance than any other thing in existence...arguably of quite less importance.

The only way I could possibly imagine you swaying the current very strong consensus would be for you to introduce a substantial number of reliable sources that defined the universe in the same way you wish to define it. Do you have any such sources? Remember, that's really our goal--to reflect what sources say, not what our own philosophies/opinions say. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

You might mistake the pretexts to cover up a bias for valid reasoning, but that's fine, I guess, for someone who does not practice relativity. You might also confuse importance with something else (like probably... scale?). When you realize what importance is and who gives the importance (the subject, maybe?), look up for yourself the sources that you need. For the moment, I am more efficient in other activities than to force my way through Wikicracy. There is a time for everything. Extremind (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

• this is an encyclopedia article, not a philosophical commentary. "including you" is in contradiction to WP:TONE, WP:VALID, WP:OR, WP:NOT and pretty much every other policy and guideline and has no place in this article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

§ Thank you all very much for your input. It is sad for me to accept the current misrepresentation of the Universe on Wikipedia, but it's been a pleasure knowing your viewpoints. Extremind (talk) 07:32, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

The Universe won't bother, either. Maybe that's what you were searching for, explaining the difference between our subjective minds and the real world outside of our minds: http://philoctetes.free.fr/parmenidesunicode.htm --178.197.229.5 (talk) 01:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC) Forgot to mention: The 6 senses being the interface between our inside world and the outside world: sound, sight, touch, smell, taste and balance. Senses do make sense, right? --178.197.229.5 (talk) 01:27, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Universe

I would like to add some information in the "Universe" section. In 1875 Swami Dayanand Saraswati wrote a book called "Satyarth Prakash" it means Light of Truth. The chapter 8 is " Creation Sustenance and Dissolution of Universe" Please read the book which is also in Wikipedia and can be found using Google. JRBhagat (talk) 18:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Long or Short Scale?

Quote: "The observable universe is about 46 billion light years in radius" Is this in short scale or long scale? Long_and_short_scales --Taltamir (talk) 17:02, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Short scale. This should not cause problems for anyone from the English speaking world. Asians may have problems. In other words, "billion" is one thousand million and therefore standard in this encyclopedia. Student7 (talk) 21:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)