Donald Glover and Maya Erskine on Real-Life Marriage, Professional Divorce and When to Walk Away

When Donald Glover was first approached about the possibility of remaking Mr. & Mrs. Smith, he wasn’t exactly enthused.

“I don’t really do remakes,” he told his buddy, an exec at New Regency, which produced the 2005 original starring Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie as married spies. Of course, he’d never actually seen the film, just the tabloid saga surrounding its stars, who’d later wed. In fact, Glover’s still convinced that was key to the project’s appeal. “When people are like, ‘I love this movie,’ I’m like, ‘What did you like?’ Not to say that the movie’s necessarily bad,” he says, “but I think it just had to do with the chemistry and what was happening between them.”

Glover did eventually watch Mr. & Mrs. Smith, mostly out of curiosity. “And then I hit my brother up and was like, ‘What the fuck is this?’ ” he recalls. His brother, Stephen, who’s written with him on both Atlanta and Swarm, told him he was simply watching it wrong. “He’s like, ‘It’s a good date movie. Who cares if they did it well?’ Everybody gets to pretend to be Brad or Angelina, and you go home holding hands like, ‘We’re not a bad team.’ And he’s right.” But what if there were another way, he wondered. He enlisted Francesca “Fran” Sloane, a writer on Atlanta, and they reconceived it as a romance drama that masquerades as a spy series. Their Smiths would be thrust together — given a marriage license, a Manhattan brownstone and strict orders to not fuck up.

Both Glover and Sloane, who serves as showrunner, understood that the intimacy between the pair was what was going to make this show sexy. “I always remember when Amy Seimetz directed a scene in Atlanta where I’m going down on Zazie Beetz’s character. She was like, ‘Do you want this to be hot to men or women?’ ” recounts Glover. “And I go, ‘Women! Oh my God, who gives a fuck if a guy likes this?’ And it’s really important to me that this show is hot in that way.”

Initially, Fleabag’s Phoebe Waller-Bridge — who’d co-starred with Glover in Solo: A Star Wars Film — was attached to co-write and star. But that didn’t work out, so they recast her role with PEN15 creator-star Maya Erskine. She and Glover had never even met, but both got their start at NYU’s Tisch School (Glover, 40, a few years ahead of 36-year-old Erskine). Now, nearly two years later, their eight-episode first season has dropped on Amazon Prime Video, featuring a dizzying array of impressive guest stars from John Turturro to Michaela Coel and the kind of travel budget that would make any bookkeeper sweat.

Over a late lunch at Manhattan’s Locanda Verde, the chemistry between Glover and Erskine, both married with kids (he three, she one), was on display, as they ate off each other’s plates.

Maya, you go from a semi-autobiographical version of your awkward teen self on PEN15 to a part formerly inhabited by Angelina Jolie. Which role felt more vulnerable?

MAYA ERSKINE Oh, this. Definitely this.

How come?

ERSKINE Putting yourself in a position where you’re empowered as a woman is not my natural safe space. Maya, as a 13-year-old, is, even if it goes to really dark, shameful spaces, it didn’t feel as vulnerable. When there’s an expectation to be wanted or attractive — that pressure that I’m putting on myself — is a very vulnerable place to be.

Did you feel that, too, Donald?

DONALD GLOVER Absolutely. I mean, as a man, it’s going to be different, what’s expected of me. But with the film, it’s like, who can’t fall in love with Angelina and Brad? With our show, you have to be vulnerable enough to have people ask the question, like, “Can I be loved? Can I be accepted?” And I’m shirtless in this shit, and I’m not fucking Brad Pitt. People are always like, “Man, your arms are long,” or, “Your knees are ugly.”

ERSKINE Who says that?

GLOVER Everyone, in my head. But also, we talk about my feet. I fucking hate these feet.

What’s wrong with your feet?

ERSKINE Oh, he has an issue with his feet. I don’t see it. Mine is more that I just had a baby, so my body changed so completely. 

Donald, the last time I interviewed you, seven years ago, you didn’t believe in marriage. “It doesn’t serve the purpose I would want it to serve,” you told me. 

ERSKINE Wow, you’re so the opposite now. He got married during the show. (Turns to Glover.) I can say that, right?

GLOVER Yeah. There was a day where I don’t think we had to be on set until noon or 1, so, I was like, “Can we get married today?” I got married in the morning. We had a real wedding afterwards, too. [That night, though,] we went to our favorite restaurant and then her parents and my mom were waiting for us at the house. 

When and why did that change, and how did it inform this show?

GLOVER I think what happened was, well, number one, I didn’t know what I was getting out of it. I felt like I knew what she was getting out of it, and I didn’t feel like she was being honest, necessarily, about what she was getting out of it. I was thinking about it in such a silly way, which I see now. Now I realize, yeah, maybe she’s gaining some stuff, but she’s also losing a lot of stuff. And we eventually had an honest talk and she was like, “I’m a traditional woman.” And when she said that, some part of me was like, “And I want to help you be that.” Whatever she needs me to be, that makes me happy. Especially nowadays, finding trust is so hard, and the fact that we have this and that we can even argue about it and still be like, “But I love you” — I mean, how many people have that? 

ERSKINE There’s something really nice about choosing to stay with the one that you’ve chosen and keep growing. And the other thing is, we both had kids before getting married. And to me, that’s the big union. I mean, we’re together for life, no matter what. But then I got married last year, and I remember it feeling incredibly serious in the best way. 

GLOVER It’s a very romantic thing to be like, “Oh, I can be your knight in shining armor and you’re letting me, you’re being vulnerable for me.” And we just kept talking about those kinds of things on this show because we were all getting married. Fran, too. It’s funny, in the Atlanta writers room, we were all anti-marriage. 

ERSKINE Really?

GLOVER Yeah. That last episode in Atlanta was not supposed to end with [Van and Earn together]. Originally, it was this whole other episode. They go their separate ways. We kept fighting [over it] in the writers room. It was split right down the middle, the men and the women, with the women literally feeling like she shouldn’t be with him and then all the boys, like, “He’s doing it all for them.” And then because the pandemic happened, everybody just started [saying to their spouses], “I only want to be with you,” and we came back and wrote that episode.

Donald has said he’s pulled from his relationship. Have you done the same, Maya?

ERSKINE Oh, I sent a lot of stuff in the beginning. Like, here’s every embarrassing thing that has happened with me in certain relationships. 

You sent a file of your trauma? 

ERSKINE It was more like, “If you have any anecdotes or things you want to infuse in Jane, here’s a couple of scripts to see what there is.” I sent so many pages. 

GLOVER But she’s good at that, obviously. You watch PEN15.

ERSKINE But it’s also harder when it isn’t just you — when it includes your partner, you have to figure out the boundaries.

GLOVER I mean, Atlanta was our relationship, too. 

ERSKINE How’d your wife react?

GLOVER My mom and her are both kind of witchy. I remember before we were married, she was like, “You have to be very careful with that pen. It’s very powerful.” 

ERSKINE Oooh. 

GLOVER Yeah. (Laughs.) Because everything I wrote, it all just happened. 

ERSKINE You are a powerful manifester.

GLOVER I think that’s just part of subconsciously wanting things.

Your mom, who I should note, is now a TV star, Donald.

ERSKINE She was such a natural [playing Glover’s on-screen mom].

Maya, you were first to cast your real-life mom to play your on-screen one in PEN15. I guess that makes you both “nepo babies,” retroactively.

GLOVER I know, right? It’s funny, Maya was like, “You’re going to revert back to who you were with her.” And I was like, “Nah.” And then she came and I was like, “Mom, say it mean.” And my mom’s like, “I don’t know how to do it mean.” I’m like, “Mom, you know how to do it mean.” (Laughs.)

ERSKINE When they’re in front of crew, they’re like, “Oh, I’ve never said anything like that.” And you’re like, “Mom!”

Before Maya was attached to this show, her role was supposed to be played by Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who was going to co-create. Maya, you’re a creator, too, but you chose not to write here …

ERSKINE I didn’t choose it.

GLOVER Yes, you did.

ERSKINE I wasn’t asked. (Glover pantomimes a gasp.) No, no, in a good way. (Laughs.)

GLOVER OK, that’s very fair. I did not ask.

ERSKINE Also, you’d just gone through that. But isn’t that interesting that you chose another creator?

GLOVER Wow, I never thought about that.

ERSKINE You didn’t think of that? I always thought of that. And Michaela Coel is involved, too. 

GLOVER I guess I just liked your guys’ styles, but I never thought about it. I mean, maybe that’s the problem because, in my head, I’m like, “They’ll fit perfectly in my vision.” (Laughs.) But also, I feel like I want to be asked sometimes to just act. Even if it’s a tiny role. No one ever asks.

ERSKINE I did say, “I don’t have to write, right?” I had just gotten off years of that [with PEN15].

You rarely see two auteurs collaborate. At what point did it become clear that it wasn’t going to work with Waller-Bridge?

GLOVER I think because we were friends and I really liked Phoebe and we’d worked together …

ERSKINE I was excited by that union. When it was announced, I was like, “Oh my God.”

GLOVER It’s a divorce in a weird way. You’re like, “Oh shit, this should have worked.” And this is just me, being honest, but I think a good relationship is one where you don’t waver from the extremely uncomfortable. And I don’t know if we were ever going to get to a place where we could be completely brutal to each other. 

Why not?

GLOVER I don’t know. It might’ve just been cultural. You’ve got to think, Fleabag was written entirely by her, they don’t really do writers rooms in the U.K. And I look back at Atlanta, and we built a culture where we could say mean things to each other or be like, “That idea is kind of [crap],” and then we’d laugh. You weren’t afraid to say something — but we also had the right to roast you. It’s  just how we got the laughs.

ERSKINE But that’s not every writers room.

GLOVER You’re right. It was special.

And you never got to that place with Waller-Bridge?

GLOVER I don’t think we ever felt comfortable enough with each other. And that’s OK. That’s what happens when you’re two captains. It’s like, “This is how I run my ship.” “Well, this is how I run my ship.” And it’s such a big idea, this show, I don’t think it can have two captains. I mean, she rewrote the pilot, and I saw her script and I was like, “It’s definitely not my style,” but if she’d done it with her in it, we’d all be like, “This is a great fucking show.”

ERSKINE There were some lines that were left that I could just feel were Phoebe. I’d be like, “Oh, I love this line. This feels like Phoebe.” 

GLOVER It was so crazy, Fran would always be like, “She’s right. That was Phoebe’s line.” 

How did the “divorce” go down?

GLOVER It’s like a real divorce where the hardest part is knowing when to say it’s over. Like, when do you quit? Because you want to be cool, like, “Oh it’s over, that’s fine.” But we both put a lot of work into it. We both were working really hard. So, who gets to keep the cat? (Laughs.) But I’d brought Fran in, and also, I feel like Phoebe wasn’t fully in love with the thing. But I feel really good about the fact that if the thing was feeling more like hers and she was like, “I just love this,” I would have been like, “You should have it.”

Maya, you were brought in shortly thereafter. And you didn’t do a chemistry read, is that right?

ERSKINE Not even an ounce of one. And that is a big risk. 

So, when did you feel like, “OK, this is going to work”?

ERSKINE I came to New York, and it was already preproduction, we were about to shoot, and we did one table read in front of Amazon, and I was like, “Oh, I don’t know if that went well.” And then we did a read just us with [director] Hiro [Murai] and Fran, and afterward, Hiro turned to Fran and said, “OK, I think this is going to work.” But it’s never really clear … 

GLOVER Oh, I knew it was going to work.

ERSKINE OK. He always knows. (Laughs.)

GLOVER No, no, no. I didn’t know the show was going to work. But I knew we’d work once we were on set on one of those first days and you told me this completely wild story. I was like, “If we’re telling each other these kinds of stories, we’re close now.” 

You care to share the story here, Maya?

ERSKINE I don’t think I can share it. Maybe one day, I’ll put it in something. 

GLOVER But from then on, I felt like we could say anything. And to be honest, that’s kind of old school now — if you’re a 20-year-old and just starting, there’s none of that because of the culture that’s been created, which I’m like, “OK, great” — but I felt immediately comfortable, like, I can be me. And if it’s too much, somebody will be like, “I don’t like that.” 

ERSKINE I think that also might be my shortcut to feeling very close to someone or creating intimacy of, like, “Here’s this thing about me. Now let’s just share it all.” Also, I was mic’d the whole time, which is insane.

GLOVER But I taught you this. (Glover pantomimes tapping on a mic.) We learned that on Community. When you’ve got Chevy [Chase] on set, you got to be like, (tapping mic) “Did you hear what he just said?!”

Speaking of, are you still planning to be in the Community movie?

GLOVER Yeah, [Dan Harmon] told me what he wanted, and I was like, “This sounds great.” It’s a college reunion, but Abed [Danny Pudi’s character] is like this big director now, and basically this is his magnum opus. I’m like, “This sounds fucking tight.” 

In preparing for this, I’ve re-read many of the interviews that you’ve both given. Maya, I’ve noticed that you talk a lot about lacking confidence, and Donald, you seem to have unwavering confidence …

ERSKINE I swing between both, to be honest. I’ll be extremely confident, like, “The world hasn’t seen everything I can do. It’s only been 10 percent. I got to show this, this and this.” But then if I’ve been given the opportunity, I’m instantly like, “They made a mistake, I can’t do this.” While I was making Mr. & Mrs. Smith, I would go home every night and be like, “I am horrible in this.”

GLOVER When I was directing her, she’d be like, “Let me do it again, that wasn’t good.” And I was like, “That was great.”

ERSKINE It’s not healthy, but it’s my process.

GLOVER For me, I think I spent enough time not liking who I was, and now I look and I’m like, “None of these people know what the fuck they’re doing.”

ERSKINE I want to be that way.

GLOVER And now I’m like, “I know I’m the shit. I put in the work. And my idea of what is cool is a better road for everybody.” And maybe I’m wrong, but I’m like, every time I try and push it there, in general, people are like, “Wow, I’m glad I have that option now.” Because I do have a vision for the world. 

ERSKINE You really do.

GLOVER I think that started to happen once I started being on these bigger things where I was talking to people, very sweet people, nice people, cool people, but no vision. A lot of people don’t have a vision. And look, I’m never going to be the best basketball player or an incredible wood welder. But I have a belief in the fact that if I wanted to do those things, I could. And I feel like people should believe in themselves. Part of the problem with a lot of this generation is that they don’t. And the whole cancel [culture] thing is a bit of that. Like, if I do the wrong thing, then people won’t like me, and then I’ll starve to death. And I get that that’s a real fear and I don’t want people to starve to death, but what if your idea is better than what their idea is? 

Have you always had that confidence?

GLOVER No, it took a while.

ERSKINE But I think as a creator, you have to have some of that because you have to believe in your idea enough to keep pushing it. But you have that confidence in all aspects of your life.

GLOVER Because I feel like I’m one of the best audience members, that’s why. I’m a great watcher. Like, I like boring shit, but I’m looking at what makes people want to keep watching a boring thing. And I am not afraid of being like, “Yeah, this is for the audience.” I’ve seen a lot of people, some of the greats, some of the people I love, fall into the trap of like, “Well, I think it’s brilliant.” 

ERSKINE But that can sometimes be the surprise of it, too. With PEN15, it was like, “Oh, wow, this thing that I really love, a lot of people connect to.” But then there was a small piece of me that was like …

GLOVER Maybe people won’t like it?

ERSKINE No, that this has to be made and people will watch it.

GLOVER So, you do have it?

ERSKINE I don’t like admitting it, but yes, that was a tiny little piece of me. (Laughs.)

GLOVER People are afraid that confidence is going to make them unlikable …

ERSKINE But you don’t really care what people think about you. 

GLOVER I know people are going to hate me anyway.

You don’t seem bothered by it.

ERSKINE He’s not. You used to be. You did say that to me.

GLOVER But we all grow up and realize, like, “Oh, that’s their problem.”

ERSKINE Well, wouldn’t that be nice? (Laughs.) But this is something I’ve struggled with my whole life. One of my biggest fears other than death was always people disliking me. Even just one person, I’d focus on that. I’m sure becoming an actress is not a coincidence. “Like me! Look at me! We connect, right?” But it’s something I’m working on. It’s a fear of failing almost, even in this interview. 

GLOVER I’m coming off like I’m not human.

ERSKINE Buddha! (Laughs.)

GLOVER Of course, I have those feelings. But isn’t that why you get married? Who else has to fucking like me anymore?

ERSKINE For me, it’s more I presume what someone’s thinking about me. And so they may not have even said, “I don’t like you,” but I’m already judging myself, like, “Oh, that was a stupid thing to say. And now they think that.” But what would be so bad if that were true? I’m learning how to not give such significance to all these small things.

I imagine that’s ever harder to do in a very public profession.

ERSKINE And I don’t want it to be public, I’m realizing. I mean, I love the public in the sense of the shared community of art. That is what I love. When I have to talk as myself, that’s what I don’t love, because that’s where the self-consciousness comes. 

GLOVER But we’ve talked about this too. You do realize this, this is just high school.

ERSKINE And no one cares.

GLOVER No one cares, but also we are representing. I represent something to people, and it took me a long time to accept that.

ERSKINE Of course. But you don’t feel bad after someone says something bad about you?

GLOVER I’ve been inoculated for a very long time.

With Atlanta, you did something different with season three, which was received by some as “too weird.” Did any of that rattle you? 

GLOVER I don’t think Atlanta gets to be on that pedestal if we don’t do the thing that we wanted to do. If we do the thing that you guys wanted us to do, it would just be another show.

Maya, why did you decide to end PEN15 when you did? I’m told Hulu wanted more. 

ERSKINE There were a lot of reasons, some of them just practical, like these kids are already looking like they’re 20 and we’re in seventh grade still. For me, I’d always seen it as three parts: the beginning of middle school, the middle and the end, and that’s it. And they’re in seventh grade forever. 

Even with all the acclaim, did you have concerns that staying on too long could make it harder for people to see you for other roles?

ERSKINE Oh, I remember being thought of for a romantic comedy or something, and they were like, “No! She’s 13.” Truly, some people thought I was 13 in this industry — or thought I looked like that or couldn’t see me beyond that, couldn’t see me as a woman. And, yeah, there was an itch to do more. That show was really one of the most enjoyable experiences of my life and also one of the most challenging. It’s working with your two best friends, which can be a dream but can also be hard.

You’ve suggested you’d like to take a break from TV. 

ERSKINE I have a little TV fatigue, just the grind of it, and I have a family. But I just turned in a draft for The Perfect Nanny [a limited series where she’d star opposite Nicole Kidman] to HBO, and we’ll see how that goes. I also want to direct a film and be in more films. And do theater again. I miss it.

Donald, I’ve heard you say you were considering stand-up again.

GLOVER Oh yeah. Thought about it. Chris Rock had said, like, “When are you going to do it again? No one gets really good at it until their 40s, except for Eddie [Murphy].”

ERSKINE You almost did it every time we would come back for reshoots or something.

GLOVER Yeah, I’d go to the Comedy Cellar.

Would you get onstage?

GLOVER No.

ERSKINE You’d say you were going to. 

GLOVER I thought I would.

ERSKINE What stopped you?

GLOVER It didn’t feel right. I still write jokes down and I think about it. I asked Bill Burr where to go, and I had a list, and I was just like, “Is it something that I feel like I need to do right now?” Maybe it’s just a nice thing that’s there that you can try to do again if you want. 

How about music? You’ve teased more Childish Gambino music.

GLOVER I want to, but I sort of feel the same about music as I do about stand-up right now.

You and your brother are also writing a Star Wars project centered on Lando Calrissian. I remember you telling me about your sit-down with Billy Dee Williams years ago. You were going on and on about how you were thinking about the character and then you asked Billy what he thought, and …

GLOVER He was like, “I don’t know. Be charming.” And he wasn’t looking at me. That was my favorite part. I think a waitress or something went by. 

ERSKINE Didn’t Brad Pitt say the same thing to you [about Mr. & Mrs. Smith]? Like, “Just be charming.”

GLOVER He kind of did. He’s like, “Oh yeah, I’m sure you’ll do a great job.” And they’re both right, in a sense: Just do what works for you.

Was taking on this Lando project an easy yes?

GLOVER No. Maya and I talk about nos a lot, it’s the only power you have in this industry. But I said yes because I like the characters and my kids love Star Wars. 

ERSKINE And you get the reins. 

GLOVER Yeah, and at this point, I just know when something’s going to be good, because you’re really fighting the industry when you [put your imprint on a franchise of that magnitude]. And it’s not like … I was going to say, and it’s not like I hate the industry, but now I’m like, “Do I hate the industry?” (Laughs.) I feel like I have enough control. And maybe you get painted as a control freak, but it’s like, yeah, control allows for the vision to be singular. And if the vision is singular, people want it more. The less it’s singular, the less people want it because they feel like they could’ve made it. Look, we live in a time where anybody can fucking make anything. You go on TikTok, there’s literally every type of thing. There’s documentaries, there’s puppetry, there’s yarn stop-motion. So why would you want to see something you feel like you could have made?

Where do you feel like you can have the most freedom?

GLOVER Gilga. [His company, which just produced Malia Obama’s short film.] Just being able to be like, “OK, now it’s mine.”

Despite mentoring Black women like Malia, there’s this narrative that accuses you of misogynoir, Donald. You famously interviewed yourself for Interview magazine a few years ago, and you asked yourself, “Are you afraid of Black women?” Why did you wade in?

GLOVER I felt like it was something that people always say, but no one ever asked because I felt like people really don’t want to know. It is a better narrative. But anybody who actually knows me knows how much that hurts me. 

It does?

GLOVER Of course. But I also realize it doesn’t matter. People are not going to read this and be like, “Wow, I was wrong.” 

ERSKINE It hurts you, but what’s your process after, to be like, “But I don’t care”? 

GLOVER To go play with my kids and be happy and be present. Because my kids know that and they’re the only ones who matter. Or my mom knows that, and she’s the only one who matters. Or Quinta [Brunson] knows that, and she’s the only one who matters. People who actually know me. And also, it’s not true. When I walk down the street in Atlanta, that’s not what happens. 

Where do you think it comes from?

GLOVER That’s what celebrity is. Why did people hate, oh, what’s her name? They don’t hate her anymore. 

ERSKINE Anne Hathaway?

GLOVER Yeah. Now everyone loves her. But why? It was because people were like, you know what character you should be? You should be the “Mama, I did it!” character. And even though she’s not probably that at all, it was like, you fit that character and I need that character in this high school for me to enjoy. Why is Pete Davidson Pete Davidson? I need that character in this high school to enjoy. It doesn’t mean people are going to necessarily go see the Pete Davidson movie. And that’s what I’m afraid of.

ERSKINE Yeah.

GLOVER I don’t want you to see my stuff if all you’re interested in is, like, “Oh, Donald’s my internet boyfriend.” Because I know that’ll eventually end. You’ll move on. I’d much rather build something very deep with an audience because I actually love the audience. I love the dance we have together. 

This story first appeared in the Feb. 7 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine. Click here to subscribe.