Kiernan “Knives” Francis and Leilah Weinraub on Innuendo, Belonging, and the New York Dream

Late November, an audience of it girls, artists, and collaborators descended on a loft space on East Broadway to witness the premiere of filmmaker Kiernan “Knives” Francis’ latest New York drama, Backseat of The Couch. The Gus Van Sant-esque featurette is a coming of age story that follows four young artists on a mission to make it in the city, clout demons and evil bosses be damned. In some ways, it’s a follow up to Trial Period, the 23-year-old director’s Criterion-approved short—only this time, the central plot is about community, or as Knives tells fellow filmmaker Leilah Weinraub: “Finding the people who make you feel like you belong.”

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LEILAH WEINRAUB: Where are you?

KIERNAN FRANCIS: I’m in my apartment.

WEINRAUB: Why does it look like a castle?

FRANCIS: It’s a really old building.

WEINRAUB: It’s like, the leather plus the fireplace, it looks like you are English.

FRANCIS: Oh, yeah. I found this chair on the street.

WEINRAUB: So what’s up?

FRANCIS: Not much. Just been doing the whole holiday thing and recuperating after the screenings. I’m just getting back to normal life.

WEINRAUB: What’s that?

FRANCIS: Working and waiting for new inspiration.

WEINRAUB: What’s working?

FRANCIS: Assisting and stuff. 

WEINRAUB: Who do you assist for?

FRANCIS: So many people.

WEINRAUB: Like who?

FRANCIS: Recently, I’ve been assisting for Law–

WEINRAUB: Law Roach?

 FRANCIS: Yeah, Law Roach.

WEINRAUB: Oh my god. How did that happen?

FRANCIS: His first assistant, Alec, asked me because he was out of town, and I was like, “Yes, of course.” 

WEINRAUB: When was that?

FRANCIS: That was in like July, and then I got asked to do other stuff with him and it was really cool. So I’ve been assisting him and a few other stylists and production companies.

WEINRAUB: His whole persona about evil gay, is that his thing?

FRANCIS: Is it? [Laughs] I know a lot of people are a bit afraid of him, but I think he’s a very nice and cool person that has worked really hard. 

WEINRAUB: Definitely. So, I felt like there is this sense of humor in the film—it’s like innuendo in fashion.

FRANCIS: Yeah. Fashion is all throughout the film, just because that’s what I do. There’s so many people and situations that you find yourself in the fashion industry. I’m sure you’re familiar with these types of characters too. Like certain conversations at dinners that are almost flexing certain items and ideas. I think it’s really cool and profound in a lot of ways, but sometimes it’s a little trite.

WEINRAUB: Trite? Is it cringe?

FRANCIS: Yeah, sometimes it can be a bit embarrassing.

WEINRAUB: I think that’s because a lot of people I know who work in fashion and have great style kind of made it up. It’s fictional. So sometimes, when you forget that it’s make believe, it gets a little bit truly false, you know? And that part is blurry so you’re like, “Okay, well, we’re just joking around. We’re making up ideas.” But then, I guess, if you believe it… It’s like watching a little kid believe their own lie.

FRANCIS: Right. I kind of love that. I don’t want to call it a psychosis, but convincing yourself of this reality and then not being able to see past it—some people have the power to really engulf you in their whole world.

WEINRAUB: Yeah, and it’s a dream. I always think about Peter Pan. This Peter Pan thing in New York is a very good story, right?

FRANCIS: Neverland.

WEINRAUB: Yeah. It’s just like kids getting to play forever. Are there stories you’re trying to tell about Bushwick specifically?

FRANCIS: Yeah, a bit. I think all the characters represent different parts of just not wanting to grow up or also trying to find yourself within this Neverland space. I was definitely inspired by Bushwick and downtown culture, and with one of the characters, the girl who’s a dancer who is always vaping, I was trying to be like, “Oh, she isn’t realizing she’s getting older and she needs to chill a little bit.”

WEINRAUB: Totally. But the aging thing is hard to understand when you don’t have any real reference for it. There’s no time markers, because there’s just a few goals, which is maybe working a lot. Where did you move to New York from?

FRANCIS: I moved to New York from Chicago in 2019.

WEINRAUB: That’s so recent.

FRANCIS: Yeah, I know.

WEINRAUB: Did you move here for school or to work?

FRANCIS: I moved for school. I just knew I wanted to live in New York, and I felt like school was a good reason. 

WEINRAUB: Where’d you go?

FRANCIS: I went to Pratt Institute.

WEINRAUB: Did you study film?

FRANCIS: I did study film, all four years.

WEINRAUB: What did they teach you there?

FRANCIS: They taught us everything. It was like film theory, but it was also all the practical stuff, like cinematography classes and a screenwriting class and an editing class. And also just classes where we would watch films that our professors liked and they would just talk about it and try to get us into them.

WEINRAUB: Was there a film movement that they were trying to influence you with?

FRANCIS: Not necessarily. They would show us a bunch of different ones. I’m not sure if I took to any of them though.

WEINRAUB: Is there a film lineage that you feel like you’re part of?

FRANCIS: It’s hard, because I feel like this film is a bit mumblecore, which I think is really cool. But mumblecore is a little different, too–

WEINRAUB: Will you say what mumblecore is, though? What even is that?

FRANCIS: It’s like, you move through a film in a way that isn’t as direct. And it’s these side conversations that all add up to a whole. So I was kind of into that idea. And, also, New Queer Cinema. That hasn’t been a thing for a while, but I was obsessed with it. Moving here, that’s all I was watching.

WEINRAUB: Like what?

FRANCIS: Like Gregg Araki, the Teen Apocalypse Trilogy, and all those films about queer kids and outsider kids. I was really into that and subcultures, and I didn’t see your film until I was in college, but I got really inspired by that too. 

WEINRAUB: You saw it at school?

FRANCIS: I saw it at school, because someone in my contemporary art history class started talking about your film. I was like, “Oh, this girl is so cool. I’m going to look up what this film is.”

WEINRAUB: That’s funny. I like the idea of people watching that movie in class. And then what happened?

FRANCIS: I just kept watching stuff and making films and my professors would tell me, “This isn’t high fidelity enough. Make it a little cleaner.” Then I would make something else. I would just make films about teenagers who would get high in parks and stuff like that, because that’s what I remembered from growing up. I’m very romantic about stuff like that.

WEINRAUB: I’ve been thinking about how French filmmakers can’t make films that aren’t French for some reason. They get to really explore nuance. And in American films it’s always like, “This is the newest idea of how to be a person right now.” You know what I mean? But I feel like, in the language of your film, it’s all about those small conversations and nuance and these really insider experiences. But at the same time, it still has that thing that you have to do in New York, which is keep telling everybody who’s the newest idea of a person. Do you know what I mean?

FRANCIS: Yeah, I do. 

WEINRAUB: So do you feel like that is limiting or expansive? Where do you want to go next?

FRANCIS: I feel like I just want to keep telling stories about these specific cultures and pockets of New York, because New York is the center of the world, and everybody does look at it. And I want to tell these stories of people that don’t really get their stories told. From here, I just want to continue to be sincere and imbue the emotions that go into all these things that seem so glossy online and stuff. Because people work really hard to live here, and I think it would be a disservice to not tell stories of all these bright people who come here to have a full, fulfilled life.

WEINRAUB: Totally.

FRANCIS: I want to keep looking at people finding themselves.

WEINRAUB: I see that. The music in your film is perfection. Do you want to talk about it?

FRANCIS: Oh yeah. The music was really fun. Well for Trial Period, the short that was released last year, I was just asking friends if I could use their music, so it was like DJ Miss Parker and Club Eat. There was a lot of electronic music in Trial Period, just because it was very centralized in the club scene and all of that. But for this one, I’ve been really obsessed with Midwest emo and math rock, so I really wanted to include a lot of it in the film. I thought that it would bring this different kind of sincerity or lens on these kinds of subjects. And also folk music was included. And you don’t usually associate folk music with queer people, but I just thought it would be interesting to put that up together.

WEINRAUB: Or folk music is the gayest.

FRANCIS: Yeah, true.

WEINRAUB: But besides that, was there a feeling or an idea that you’re trying to put together with all of this different music throughout the two pieces?

FRANCIS: I guess you could say Backseat of the Couch is kind of the calm after the party that was Trial Period. Because in Trial Period, the main character was realizing he was being used or exploited to find this niche new underground club scene. And then he kind of just got jaded from that. And for all the characters in this, there’s a bit of clubbing, but there’s also this softness. Like that’s what these characters and people look like in the daytime, and it’s just them existing in the day to day and what they actually want out of their lives. So I think that’s how the music ties into it, it’s this kind of reflective experience that you have when you’re listening to an emo band.

WEINRAUB: Right. Speaking of emo, you shoot on 16 millimeters?

FRANCIS: No, I wish. If I could afford it.

WEINRAUB: What did you shoot it on? It looked like it was 16.

FRANCIS: We shot it on digital. Well, the beginning part when everyone was entering, that was on a Super 8. My assistant director shot most of that.

WEINRAUB: Really nice.

FRANCIS: Yeah, they did a great job.

WEINRAUB: If people want to be in your movies, how do they find you?

FRANCIS: They can find me on just Instagram. I’m very accessible. If you DM @BigKnives, I respond. That was the fun thing about this film, I really wanted people who are first time actors who just know these experiences, and that’s what they bring to the role. So I welcome anyone who’s interested in it, who wants to be a part of it in any capacity. I was just getting emails from a bunch of people I didn’t know or who just moved here and stuff like that. I feel like that’s the beauty of social media and connection.

WEINRAUB: I’m excited for you to make like five films a year, so good luck.

FRANCIS: Thank you. I hope so.

WEINRAUB: Is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you want to talk about?

FRANCIS: I guess I like to talk about the community aspect of the whole project. I feel like Anthony, one of the characters, had this community of the club and trying to be a support system for all of his friends, but then, not having his life completely figured out. And then Vivian, she had her community of actors and the arts, but then this predatory guy comes in and is trying to take advantage of her. And Clyde, the skater kid who just moved there, he’s looking for community. I see that in a lot of people who move here and can’t find their people. I feel like that was an important story to tell. And Sophie, she has her girls who she dances with, and they hang out after the strip club and watch Baddies or something. She’s kind of wild, and they’re keeping her in check. So it all comes back to finding your people, that’s what makes New York livable, finding the people who make you feel like you belong.

WEINRAUB: Right.

FRANCIS: So it was really important for me to show how everyone’s actually here for each other. I was thinking about your film, Shakedown. I love those moments with all the girls backstage talking and sipping shooters and just gossiping.

WEINRAUB: Yeah. That makes me think about how I depicted the girls that don’t get along. What is that saying? “Cocaine is the great unifier.” There’s something about New York where the reality is that people do get along that are totally different. They’re from the most random, farthest away places from each other, but then there’s something that really brings us all together, besides cocaine. And I always try to figure out what that is exactly. Do you know what it is?

FRANCIS: I don’t know what it is. I guess just the fact that everyone has a dream or has drive or something.

WEINRAUB: Something about drive, that’s for sure. There’s a thing where we all fit. And when you  find your clique or niche, that’s the ticket, honestly.

FRANCIS: Totally. A lot of young people are having a big identity crisis. Either they don’t like anything or they like everything and then they bundle it all together. But I think it’s about the singular experience and trying to connect through that, through what you really feel.