NGC Details Grading...now what?

[Jester 38]

I was really excited to send my first two Sixpences purchased off to NGC for grading (a 1909 and 1910 EdVII).  They were in high grade (pAS) and I was hopeful of a high MS for both.  Here are images of the raw coins...

I checked NGC's site yesterday and the grades had come back.  The 1909 received a MS 63+ and the 1910 a UNC Details - Surface Hairlines.  As this was the first Details grade I'd ever received for a coin submitted to NGC, my general attitude could best be described as the sound of air quickly rushing out of a balloon.  Here are images of the graded coins from NGC (strange lighting on the coins)...

So my question to you good people is this, "What do I do with this?"  What would you do?  I'm working to build a graded date run and I'm not sure I want the final year of the run to be an UNC Details coin.  Do you keep this as part of the run or now go back out and buy another?  I'm a bit gun-shy about buying raw again as both of these coins looked great and came from a reputable dealer.  I (and I think I speak for "we") spend hard-earned money and a good deal of it for these coins and as I see it, when it comes back in Details grade, I feel the value isn't there anymore for the money spent.  Are Details grades from TPG's just the random landmines we have to accept from time to time when collecting numismatics?  I'm interested in your thoughts.  Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Jester

[Rob 3,140]

50 minutes ago, Jester said:

I was really excited to send my first two Sixpences purchased off to NGC for grading (a 1909 and 1910 EdVII).  They were in high grade (pAS) and I was hopeful of a high MS for both.  Here are images of the raw coins...

I checked NGC's site yesterday and the grades had come back.  The 1909 received a MS 63+ and the 1910 a UNC Details - Surface Hairlines.  As this was the first Details grade I'd ever received for a coin submitted to NGC, my general attitude could best be described as the sound of air quickly rushing out of a balloon.  Here are images of the graded coins from NGC (strange lighting on the coins)...

So my question to you good people is this, "What do I do with this?"  What would you do?  I'm working to build a graded date run and I'm not sure I want the final year of the run to be an UNC Details coin.  Do you keep this as part of the run or now go back out and buy another?  I'm a bit gun-shy about buying raw again as both of these coins looked great and came from a reputable dealer.  I (and I think I speak for "we") spend hard-earned money and a good deal of it for these coins and as I see it, when it comes back in Details grade, I feel the value isn't there anymore for the money spent.  Are Details grades from TPG's just the random landmines we have to accept from time to time when collecting numismatics?  I'm interested in your thoughts.  Thanks for taking the time to read and comment.

This post will probably open a big can of worms.

If you definitely want a graded date run, you have set your own criteria, so will have to bite the bullet and buy another. It really depends on what you want as the US market is firmly addicted to slabs, and dare I say it, afraid to contradict the 'experts'. You bought the coin because it looked good, and for most people, that will and should be the determining reason. Personally, I think people should collect for pleasure, and not as an investment. If you are thinking along the lines of the second, then you will have to go for higher grades, as that is what the 'investor' is looking for. The phrase on the reverse of the details slab says it all. 'Details grade does not determine value' implies the converse, i.e. a graded number will dictate the price you must pay. Clearly this is nonsense, as no two coins are the same, and by extension do not necessarily pass the 'does it look nice?' audition, even if the TPG thinks they are equal. The top end of the US market, or those trying to outdo the other slab collectors in the competitive most highly graded type sets promoted by the TPGs, is driven by someone else's opinion, and not that of the person who is spending the money. To a large extent, slabbing is a triumph of marketing over a willingness on the part of the collector to do the necessary spadework. Horses for courses, I'm afraid.

Yes, a TPG submission is a bit of a lottery. However, for those who collect the coin rather than the number, slabs can offer countless opportunities to acquire incorrectly identified coins; or correctly identified coins, but in a slab too lowly graded to attract the money irrespective of its appeal. From a personal perspective, maybe 20% of the hundred or more slabs I have bought have fallen into one of these two categories, with lower MS numbers frequently looking better than the higher graded examples from named collections, the latter of which apparently deserve a better rating. And a details or maybe a VF or whatever grade on a coin where I am struggling to find any suitable example is a no-brainer, with bargains aplenty. That can be really good.

Even if you are firmly on the slabbing route, there is nothing wrong with buying raw coins if you have familiarised yourself with what constitutes an uncleaned, naturally toned, and basically untampered with, example. For the beginner it is a steep learning curve with mistakes necessarily being made to provide the experience of what a 'good' coin looks like, but it gets easier with time. i.e. just like everything else in life. It is the numismatic equivalent of the saying, 'the harder I practice, the luckier I get'. Slabbing attempts to remove this learning curve by saying 'you don't need to know, just accept what we say', leading to a healthy income for the TPGs with their captive adherents.

Ultimately, the decision is for you to decide what you want. Collecting isn't a p'ing competition, just something for personal satisfaction and interest.

[PWA 1967 2,120]

IMO jester you will learn more from the rejected / details one than any returned ok.

Its better to find out after only buying a couple 

Keep it for now ,study it and look out for the problem on any future ones you may wish to purchase.

[Coinery 1,122]

I don't think it will open much of a can of worms, @Rob, because I think most the people on here are exhausted and bemused by the gulf between the  two collector types. 

I agree with absolutely everything you say and, interestingly, I've only just noticed a very obvious detail that I've overlooked before. Namely, that there are those who buy slabs and miss out on the exploration and, in my opinion, numismatic essence of it all...and there are those who know their stuff and enjoy manipulating the slabbing phenomenon, whether that's taking advantage of that which is already slabbed, or still having a good finger on the pulse of what makes a great raw coin and then getting it slabbed!

A big difference, very different animals!

Having said that, it could open up a can of worms!

Edited October 21, 2017 by Coinery

[youliveyoulean 24]

Jester,

my only advice would be to think very carefully about slabbing a bunch of sixpences that can be bought for the price of the slabbing process itself. Ask yourself what is your reason for slabbing the coins. Is it to test your understanding of the grading system, a kind of personal challenge, for investment purposes or because you just prefer to view your coins in slab form with the added peace of mind you can fondle them without the risk of damage? 

I'll help you out with one of those. In my humble opinion these relatively modern sixpences are quite common in high grades and have no future as an investment....now with that grenade where's my tin hat...i'm just off to hide behind the sofa ;-)

 

[Jester 38]

Thanks all for the responses.  I guess as the OP, I'll share my thoughts on graded/slabbed coins and why I like them, why I buy some already slabbed and why I buy some raw and have them graded.

• Personally, I like the look and presentation of slabbed coins.  I don't have the tactile need to fondle them....didn't grandma warn you about playing with things too much?
• I like how they store as well.  Whether you're a fan of NGC or PCGS or both, for a relatively low cost you can buy their hard plastic storage boxes that keep your collection well organized. 
• Slabbing also protects your coin/investment better than any other form of storage I can think of.
• At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity.  There are a few coin collectors I respect who specialize in very different types of coins and in following them on social media, I've watched them send some of their acquisitions off to TPGs only to have the occasional coin returned in a baggy, not a slab, identified as "Not Authentic".  Tells me it can happen to anyone.
• In my opinion, I think coin collecting can be an "And" opportunity and not just an "Either/Or".  I collect coins because I enjoy collecting things, I love the history behind the coins, it brings personal satisfaction (well, not that Details coin) and I look at them as potential investments hopefully making good decisions so should I choose to sell later in life, I can put a little extra coin in my pocket.  I don't believe it has to be one or the other.
• I've heard some say that "collectors" that buy graded coins are lazy and don't want to invest the time or make the commitment to educate themselves on how to grade coins.  While I'm sure those individuals exist, I prefer to buy coins raw, educating myself as I go along, and then have them graded kinda like @youliveyoulean said testing my ability to accurately grade a coin and hopefully add value by purchasing the high grade raw coin cheaper than you could the one that's already graded.  In fact, I just picked this up to enhance my understanding of what to be looking for when examining a prospective purchase...

So those are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.  @PWA 1967, I like your idea about studying the 1910 Details to better understand why it received that designation in the first place.  Thanks to each of you for your thoughts and feedback.  In my opinion, regardless of your preference, the discourse is certainly more interesting with different approaches and perspectives.  Have a great rest of the weekend.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Jester

[Coinery 1,122]

Hey Jester, good points, and absolutely fair enough, though I have to draw your attention to one statement which I quote below, which is totally false, with many examples to prove it! ?

"At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity"

[zookeeperz 470]

8 hours ago, Jester said:

Thanks all for the responses.  I guess as the OP, I'll share my thoughts on graded/slabbed coins and why I like them, why I buy some already slabbed and why I buy some raw and have them graded.

• Personally, I like the look and presentation of slabbed coins.  I don't have the tactile need to fondle them....didn't grandma warn you about playing with things too much?
• I like how they store as well.  Whether you're a fan of NGC or PCGS or both, for a relatively low cost you can buy their hard plastic storage boxes that keep your collection well organized. 
• Slabbing also protects your coin/investment better than any other form of storage I can think of.
• At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity.  There are a few coin collectors I respect who specialize in very different types of coins and in following them on social media, I've watched them send some of their acquisitions off to TPGs only to have the occasional coin returned in a baggy, not a slab, identified as "Not Authentic".  Tells me it can happen to anyone.
• In my opinion, I think coin collecting can be an "And" opportunity and not just an "Either/Or".  I collect coins because I enjoy collecting things, I love the history behind the coins, it brings personal satisfaction (well, not that Details coin) and I look at them as potential investments hopefully making good decisions so should I choose to sell later in life, I can put a little extra coin in my pocket.  I don't believe it has to be one or the other.
• I've heard some say that "collectors" that buy graded coins are lazy and don't want to invest the time or make the commitment to educate themselves on how to grade coins.  While I'm sure those individuals exist, I prefer to buy coins raw, educating myself as I go along, and then have them graded kinda like @youliveyoulean said testing my ability to accurately grade a coin and hopefully add value by purchasing the high grade raw coin cheaper than you could the one that's already graded.  In fact, I just picked this up to enhance my understanding of what to be looking for when examining a prospective purchase...

So those are just a few of my thoughts on the subject.  @PWA 1967, I like your idea about studying the 1910 Details to better understand why it received that designation in the first place.  Thanks to each of you for your thoughts and feedback.  In my opinion, regardless of your preference, the discourse is certainly more interesting with different approaches and perspectives.  Have a great rest of the weekend.

Unless you send them to CGS then that book gets thrown out of the window. Which personally I find kind of over authoritarian in the fact that if there has been a recognised grading practice per say which has a common agreement . Well loosely within 1/2 a grade for many many years. What right does a said entity have to completely rewrite the whole grading formula. The gap between UNC-VF in CGS is miniscule. You can look at coins a pretty much put them in a grade bracket. but if you try with CGS coins you would be a mile off. Too me they are over reaching. Is it a good or bad thing . Commercially for them I guess it is. Less top end coins graded better price to sell. 

Already this morning I have seen CGS coin  with wrong variety attributed to it. Now weather that is CGS itself or a misquote by the seller Jury is out. But once again there should be a point of reference to look up these coins before purchase and make sure esp in this case as it is a lot of £ difference

[Jester 38]

1 hour ago, zookeeperz said:

Unless you send them to CGS then that book gets thrown out of the window. Which personally I find kind of over authoritarian in the fact that if there has been a recognised grading practice per say which has a common agreement . Well loosely within 1/2 a grade for many many years. What right does a said entity have to completely rewrite the whole grading formula. The gap between UNC-VF in CGS is miniscule. You can look at coins a pretty much put them in a grade bracket. but if you try with CGS coins you would be a mile off. Too me they are over reaching. Is it a good or bad thing . Commercially for them I guess it is. Less top end coins graded better price to sell. 

Already this morning I have seen CGS coin  with wrong variety attributed to it. Now weather that is CGS itself or a misquote by the seller Jury is out. But once again there should be a point of reference to look up these coins before purchase and make sure esp in this case as it is a lot of £ difference

Interesting perspective and I appreciate your opinion.  Here's the challenge I have.  Take someone who is relatively new to coin collecting (see the moniker above my avatar) and who has few resources in their surrounding location to learn more about the hobby.  Where do you turn?  As I see it, you have two options (well, three but the third is folly), books, the Internet or simply forge ahead without educating yourself.  I've found some decent written material on the Internet to try and glean information from but if you find yourself on YouTube, every Tom, Dick or Harry with a camera and conviction in their voice is a numismatic expert ready to tell you everything you should know.

So my preference is books.  While I don't plan to carry this particular book around like my Bible, I think/hope the value it will bring me comes from seeing multiples of the same coin in various conditions.

Look at it from a novice's point of view...let's say I'm going to buy a 1902 Crown and the raw coin is graded EF by a LCS or slabbed AU 58 from the TPG.  How would the coin collector just learning know if the coin has been accurately graded by either?  What if there's just slight wear to Edward's hair and beard?  What if there's no wear but a rim nick?  What if there's the slightest wear to his hair and a bag mark in the field?  What if there's just the faintest of surface scratches and none of the other attributes?  When taking just these types of wear/damage in all the possible combinations as well as others not listed, it can leave the novice feeling like they're standing at the base of Everest looking up and they're simply being told, "climb".  And that's not even considering getting into micro-grading EF+, aEF, gEF, etc.

I say all that to say I'm attempting to find as many books as I can on the subject to help me in this learning process.  If there are others I should be focused on acquiring and learning from, I'm absolutely open to suggestions and recommendations.  Thanks again for your feedback.  It gives me another perspective when looking for source material.

[Jester 38]

4 hours ago, Coinery said:

Hey Jester, good points, and absolutely fair enough, though I have to draw your attention to one statement which I quote below, which is totally false, with many examples to prove it! ?

"At a minimum, buying a coin already slabbed/graded guarantees authenticity"

Thanks for the feedback and your willingness to see my point of view.

Perhaps "guarantees" was too strong a word.

Here's the short process I step through when contemplating the purchase of a slabbed coin from an online site be it dealer or eBay.  First and foremost, I will not buy a slabbed coin if the seller will not show or disclose the registration number.  If the coin is graded by either NGC or PCGS, you can visit the TPGs website where they have a Registration Certification page.  There you can type in the registration ID found on the slab's label.  If I can magnify the images on both sites, a certainty with the TPGs and most often on a site like eBay, and compare the attributes of the coin and they're a match, I can feel relatively confident that the coin I'm buying is the one the TPG graded and slabbed.

In the end, I personally feel better about purchasing a TPG slabbed coin from a site like eBay that I can reasonably verify versus taking a chance on its raw counterpart.  You're right though, nothing is a guarantee. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by Jester

[zookeeperz 470]

18 minutes ago, Jester said:

Interesting perspective and I appreciate your opinion.  Here's the challenge I have.  Take someone who is relatively new to coin collecting (see the moniker above my avatar) and who has few resources in their surrounding location to learn more about the hobby.  Where do you turn?  As I see it, you have two options (well, three but the third is folly), books, the Internet or simply forge ahead without educating yourself.  I've found some decent written material on the Internet to try and glean information from but if you find yourself on YouTube, every Tom, Dick or Harry with a camera and conviction in their voice is a numismatic expert ready to tell you everything you should know.

So my preference is books.  While I don't plan to carry this particular book around like my Bible, I think/hope the value it will bring me comes from seeing multiples of the same coin in various conditions.

Look at it from a novice's point of view...let's say I'm going to buy a 1902 Crown and the raw coin is graded EF by a LCS or slabbed AU 58 from the TPG.  How would the coin collector just learning know if the coin has been accurately graded by either?  What if there's just slight wear to Edward's hair and beard?  What if there's no wear but a rim nick?  What if there's the slightest wear to his hair and a bag mark in the field?  What if there's just the faintest of surface scratches and none of the other attributes?  When taking just these types of wear/damage in all the possible combinations as well as others not listed, it can leave the novice feeling like they're standing at the base of Everest looking up and they're simply being told, "climb".  And that's not even considering getting into micro-grading EF+, aEF, gEF, etc.

I say all that to say I'm attempting to find as many books as I can on the subject to help me in this learning process.  If there are others I should be focused on acquiring and learning from, I'm absolutely open to suggestions and recommendations.  Thanks again for your feedback.  It gives me another perspective when looking for source material.

Actually I am even toying with the idea of slabbed coins for the simple reason NGC and PCGS have a habit of mis-identifying English coins or put it more simply they don't care. They are very old school and if it is a well known variety it will go on the ticket if it isn't or is a new variety your 50/50 weather they will record it. Which is a massive plus for UK slab buyers. 

I just bought an MS64 BN 1916 Penny NGC slabbed. It turns out the didn't identify it as a recessed ear even though it has the broken tooth after BRITT identifier. So you could call it a win win :). I am not against TPG's when I am buying just when submitting and I think that is probably the case for most  

[Coinery 1,122]

Just in case you missed my point @Jester, the concern is not just with fake slabs, though your approach will certainly help fish them out! I was referring to a number of occasions where TPGCs have themselves slabbed obvious fake coins, and even misattributed basics like denomination!  

[Jester 38]

Just wanted to share a few thoughts after reading through discussions elsewhere on the Forum where some members seem to take issue with what is called an "American" phenomenon when talking about TPGs and slabbing/grading coins.  Hey, maybe this did open a can of worms and Pandora's box all at the same time 

Another large, active coin forum on the Interweb is The Silver Forum.  As many of you already know, it's a UK-based forum with the majority of its membership being western Europeans (mostly British) with a sprinkling of us Yanks and some Asian collectors.  One of the most active threads across the entire forum is "NGC Grading Submissions Open" where forum members can send their raw numismatic/modern coins (sometimes in bulk) to one member who coordinates periodic, large group, submissions to NGC (God bless him for having the constitution and patience to do that).  Keeping in mind that 85+% of forum members are British and EU collectors, I believe it's reasonable to say there are plenty of folks on your side of the pond as well that enjoy and find value in collecting slabbed coins.

Long-standing, well-respected European auction houses are beginning to offer more coins at auction already slabbed and graded.  In fact, here's a case study for us all to follow and I find this truly interesting because we can objectively track this and have follow-up discussion after it's over.

I was perusing the preview catalogue for the DNW "Coins, Historical Medals & Paper Money" auction to take place on 13 & 14 December 2017.  I'm looking to acquire an 1887 Crown for my denomination year set.  To my pleasant surprise they already have two that will be auctioned, both in high grade.  Something caught my eye though...one is in "About As Struck" condition and the other is "Almost As Struck".  Both look nearly identical but the About As Struck coin has an estimate of £1200 - £1500 while the Almost As Struck is estimated at £120 - £150.  That can't be right.  There's no way there's that much difference between "About" and "Almost" to warrant that kind of disparity. Surely it's a typo on the About As Struck coin, it too must be £120 -£150.  So I clicked on the About As Struck to see if there was any additional information and lo and behold..."slabbed NGC MS 64".

So virtually the same coin almost down to identical appearance and because one is raw stating it's UNC and the other coin has been "verified" MS it will likely sell for ten times as much.  If I'm a coin dealer and I can sell an 1887 Crown for £120 - £150 raw stating "About As Struck" or I can spend about £30 more of my own money and if the exact same coin comes back mid to upper MS grade it'll sell either in my shop or at auction for £1200 - £1500 (and the market will bear it, i.e., clients are willing to pay you £1200), I'll likely pursue that business model.

Some may say, so what?  This proves nothing.  A fool and his money are quickly parted.  The argument as I've seen it here is that the only people benefiting from slabbing/grading coins are the TPGs themselves.  I think this would show otherwise.  If you're a collector who has no interest in the future investment potential of the coins you decide collect then this may be irrelevant.  So we'll see, right?  It'll be interesting to track "The Tale of Two Crowns" and come back together on 15/12/17 to discuss.

In closing, did slabbing/grading start in America?  I assume so but I'm not 100% on that.  Is there a higher concentration in the U.S. of collectors who prefer slabbed/graded coins?  I'd concede that.  Am I butt hurt that when critical opinions are given of slabbed/graded coins sometimes there's "American" also in the comment?  No.  I just want to put forward that this phenomenon isn't geographically isolated to one population of collectors.  I'm also a huge fan of "to each his own" and I really appreciate and value different opinions and perspectives.  So I'm interested in your thoughts.  Has this piqued your interest or curiosity at all?  Love to hear your take.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Jester

[Rob 3,140]

It has been discussed at length on here since Chris started the forum.

Do not read too much into estimates. This is a function of the reserve set by the vendor as you are not permitted to have a reserve higher than the top estimate. If you have a coin that will normally go for about £100, then the estimate would logically be say £60-80. If you have somneone who says I want to receive £200 for my normally £100 coin, then the estimate will have to increase to take account of the reserve. All it needs is one person to submit a bid and the coin sells - thus giving the illusion that a new base level has been set for that type. The auction house will charge a fee whether it sells or not. The high prices are likely aimed at US buyers who will pay according to the number, though £1200-1500 for an 1887 crown that isn't a proof seems a bit steep.

Yes slabbing is more popular in the US than here and yes it did start there, but there are some on this forum who are UK based and also prefer slabs such as PWA and The Coinery (not Coinery). The attraction of slabs is assisted by those who just want to buy a product off the shelf. That in a way is why slabs could take off to a larger extent in the UK, but it is certainly not going to be highly correlated with someone interested in the study of coins, as your sample material is protected from serious examination by the plastic.

[Leo 91]

Jester, I have taken a look at those two crowns that you mentioned and the cheaper one has signs of wear that the other one doesn't. Look at the belt thing across St George's chest (this wears very quickly), the visor of his helmet, the edge of Victoria's veil, and her hair...

Now, does that justify an increase of price of 700%? It is true that the value does not increase linearly with quality, it is exponential (as relative rarity), and once you go higher than EF it gets really into very fine details. But more than a grand for a common 1887 crown is pushing it too far I think.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Leo

[youliveyoulean 24]

I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt Jester, but it appears as though you are about to go down the slabbing route with little or no experience about how to go about it.

Getting your own coins slabbed as someone who is new to this is most certainly NOT a mechanism you should be using to learn about grading coins in the first instance. 

It would also be wise to forget about making money from slabbing for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jester 38]

58 minutes ago, youliveyoulean said:

I'm sorry if this sounds a little blunt Jester, but it appears as though you are about to go down the slabbing route with little or no experience about how to go about it.

Getting your own coins slabbed as someone who is new to this is most certainly NOT a mechanism you should be using to learn about grading coins in the first instance. 

It would also be wise to forget about making money from slabbing for now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback.  I truly appreciate your candor and concern.  I've got quite a bit of experience with slabbing coins as well as selling them for profit.

My most recent transaction was a 2017 1/10 oz Gold BU Libertad purchased early August for about $250 followed about a month later with a 2017 1/20 oz Gold Proof Libertad for $120.  Both were going to be key coins based on the estimated mintages for the 2017 Gold Libertad series.  I sent them off to NGC for grading.  The 1/10 oz BU came back MS 69 (see below) which is a good result given that BdM sends their BU coins out in bags.  The 1/20 oz Proof, as you'd expect/hope came back PF 70 UC (see below).

I sold the 1/10 oz on 10/05, about two months after purchase, for $750 and the 1/20 oz on 10/12, about a month after purchase, for $300.  So my total outlay, including grading was about $470 and after eBay/PayPal fees I cleared a profit of $443, essentially doubling my money in less than two months. Obviously that type of example doesn't happen every week but if you watch for the right opportunity, it can be quite profitable.

If a more numismatic example is desired, I picked up a 1807 African Head Napoleon 1/4F from the DNW auction in June.  I think the adjustment mark (which occurred at the Paris Mint) scared bidders away and I picked it up for about £170 ($225) including buyer's premium.  I sent it to NGC for grading and it came back AU 58 (see below).  Looking up this coin in the Standard Catalog of World Coins 1801 - 1900, it's valued at $500 in VF40 so it's reasonable to say it's somewhere north of $500 given the grade and rarity (only 41,000 were minted in 1807 before Napoleon shut it down) with only four coins in higher grade between NGC and PCGS combined.  No sales price realized as I haven't sold it yet but it'll be going to Heritage Auctions next week so we'll see!

I have my raw coins slabbed and graded simply because I like slabbed and graded coins.  Certainly not using it as a crutch in place of learning how to grade (and I'm definitely still learning).  Again, thank you for your feedback.  I always enjoy hearing other members' opinions and perspectives.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Jester

[1949threepence 3,367]

I see you are from the States @Jester and I know that US collectors are into slabbing coins probably much more than we in the UK are. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't subscribe to the general view that the opinion of the grader at NGC (or wherever else for that matter) should be treated as infallible. They do make mistakes not only wityh grading, but also sometimes with the variety of the coin itself. Moreover, I think the extent of the mark up on slabbed coins over raw ones, is a bit silly, to be honest.    

[Jester 38]

4 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

I see you are from the States @Jester and I know that US collectors are into slabbing coins probably much more than we in the UK are. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't subscribe to the general view that the opinion of the grader at NGC (or wherever else for that matter) should be treated as infallible. They do make mistakes not only wityh grading, but also sometimes with the variety of the coin itself. Moreover, I think the extent of the mark up on slabbed coins over raw ones, is a bit silly, to be honest.    

Completely agree with you Mike regarding NGC/PCGS graders.  I am not of the opinion that they are infallible and never make mistakes.  In the same breath, I do not believe these companies are pulling people off the street corner and giving them jobs as coin graders.

I also agree with you regarding the mark-up on slabbed coins over raw.  However, as long as the disparity exists and collectors are willing to pay the elevated prices, I'll look to profit from it when the opportunity presents itself...Vive la Capitalism!

[zookeeperz 470]

It also happens with the TPG's themselves. Put two identical coins same grade one in NGC slab and one in PCGS slab and the PCGS will sell for a lot more than the NGC. Almost to the extent that NGC is the poorman's grader with ANACS reflecting the true price of what the coin should sell at . Are the graders at PCGS any better qualified than NGC or ANACS?I very much doubt as some of the graders @ PCGS have worked for both the other two companies. But human folk will follow any news bulletin which most are just fake or rumours about standards @ each TPG and it is probably generated by the TPG's themselves. So in the end it gives the collector the mindset that if he buys a PCGS slab he must pay more for it.It is a nonsense idea but that is how marketing is done these days . Stir the interest> create the demand> Package it> Sell for as much as humanly possible  

[1949threepence 3,367]

1 hour ago, Jester said:

Completely agree with you Mike regarding NGC/PCGS graders.  I am not of the opinion that they are infallible and never make mistakes.  In the same breath, I do not believe these companies are pulling people off the street corner and giving them jobs as coin graders.

I also agree with you regarding the mark-up on slabbed coins over raw.  However, as long as the disparity exists and collectors are willing to pay the elevated prices, I'll look to profit from it when the opportunity presents itself...Vive la Capitalism!

100% agreed. If people are willing to pay, then you have a ready market. Given the opportunity, it would be foolish not to take full advantage.  

[RLC35 288]

2 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I see you are from the States @Jester and I know that US collectors are into slabbing coins probably much more than we in the UK are. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't subscribe to the general view that the opinion of the grader at NGC (or wherever else for that matter) should be treated as infallible. They do make mistakes not only wityh grading, but also sometimes with the variety of the coin itself. Moreover, I think the extent of the mark up on slabbed coins over raw ones, is a bit silly, to be honest.    

 

You are right about the mistakes made on varieties. I sent a 1922/27 Penny in for slabbing (with variety documentation) and it came back slabbed as 1922 Great Britain Penny. The value dropped quite a bit!  Ha,Ha.

[jaggy 528]

9 hours ago, RLC35 said:

 

You are right about the mistakes made on varieties. I sent a 1922/27 Penny in for slabbing (with variety documentation) and it came back slabbed as 1922 Great Britain Penny. The value dropped quite a bit!  Ha,Ha.

The variety doesn't go away just because it isn't marked on the slab.

[jaggy 528]

I have sent quite a few coins away to NGC for grading and had several come back with a details grade, usually hairline scratches. Sadly, in almost every case, the graders got it right. It was a lesson to me to be far more careful when buying raw coins which constitute the bulk of my purchases.

Sometimes, the thoughtful collector can take advantage of slabbing errors, which do happen, or can take advantage of those who buy the grade and not the coin. I bought a 1834 MS64 sixpence at Heritage. Per the photos, it looked like it had horrible scratches to the neck and the price reflected that. I took a chance that the scratches were on the slab and not the coin (otherwise it would/should never have got an MS64). Turned out that I was right!

I bought an MS65 1887 sixpence R/V misattributed by PCGS as a shilling with no error. Broke it out of the slab, sent it to NGC from whence it came back properly attributed and MS66. Big win!

Despite the above, and much as some of us like to deride the TPGs and their graders on here and to point out their mistakes and errors, when it comes to Details grades, the reality is that they get it right 99% of the time. And, even though the actual grade (for non-Details) is an inexact science, they generally get that more or less right too. Truth is, as collectors, we make buying mistakes and base decisions off of flattering photos too much of the time. And we don't much like it when we get it wrong. Easier to blame the TPG.

Having a few coins come back with Details has been for me an object lesson in 'Cave Emptor' and in causing me to tighten up my own grading standards. It has also emphasised the importance of trusted sources (e.g. dealers) when buying coins.

Edited October 26, 2017 by jaggy

[1949threepence 3,367]

1 hour ago, jaggy said:

The variety doesn't go away just because it isn't marked on the slab.

No, but it would obviously be better if it was.