Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General

[Fromola]

Just how do they ever get by in the Championship and other lower leagues without VAR?

Fans of relegated clubs are made up to get back to football without it (for a season at least anyway). They are trying to bring it into EFL though which would be a disaster.

It's already been carnage in Scotland since they introduced it last year. It was one of the last remaining USP's of the game there that they didn't have to put up with VAR.

[Fromola]

People highlighting what VAR would have rectified in that women's champions league game are overlooking the hundreds of other games where nothing controversial happened.

I'll take one game with some howlers every so often over every game forensically analysed and ruined with VAR.

There's been plenty of VAR games with unfathomable howlers anyway.

The trade off is just not worth it. I've felt cheated in more games with VAR in use, for Liverpool games, than I did before it came in with just refs.

[Santas robbed me shorts]

There's been plenty of VAR games with unfathomable howlers anyway.

The trade off is just not worth it. I've felt cheated in more games with VAR in use, for Liverpool games, than I did before it came in with just refs.

So when they pull it and Rashford is 3 yards offside and scores a winner against us and Tierney just shrugs and goes "ah fuck it", Or when England, fresh from his all expenses paid trip to Abu Dhabi, staying at the Emirates Palace, fucks us over every game, or Taylor fucks us, giving a penalty for a blatant dive, knowing there is no come back, you'll be all happy and smug, as VAR isn't spoiling the game?

[Fromola]

So when they pull it and Rashford is 3 yards offside and scores a winner against us and Tierney just shrugs and goes "ah fuck it", Or when England, fresh from his all expenses paid trip to Abu Dhabi, staying at the Emirates Palace, fucks us over every game, or Taylor fucks us, giving a penalty for a blatant dive, knowing there is no come back, you'll be all happy and smug, as VAR isn't spoiling the game?

We'll get screwed with or without it if the officials are biased against us. Look at the Mac red against Bournemouth. Var refused to even overturn it.

Personally I'd just like fair treatment. we generally do in Europe but still got screwed last week by the VAR killjoys.

[Santas robbed me shorts]

We'll get screwed with or without it if the officials are biased against us. Look at the Mac red against Bournemouth. Var refused to even overturn it.

Personally I'd just like fair treatment. we generally do in Europe but still got screwed last week by the VAR killjoys.

Because VAR cannot overturn it, the decision still rests with the referee

As for last week, how the officials missed the handball in the first place I'll never know, we'd go mental if we conceded a goal like that and it was allowed to stand

[Bullet500]

When are they releasing the audio for Bruno's elbow to Jorginho's head?

Is this a legit leak or a prank? https://old.reddit.com/r/Gunners/comments/17vur0h/tnat_audio_of_var_discussing_bruno_g_possible_red/

Disclaimer: This still could be fake. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/16/newcastle-arsenal-var-audio-leaked-match-officials-micd-up/

[owens_2k]

So when they pull it and Rashford is 3 yards offside and scores a winner against us and Tierney just shrugs and goes "ah fuck it", Or when England, fresh from his all expenses paid trip to Abu Dhabi, staying at the Emirates Palace, fucks us over every game, or Taylor fucks us, giving a penalty for a blatant dive, knowing there is no come back, you'll be all happy and smug, as VAR isn't spoiling the game?

You know what, the assistant refs actually did a really good job pre VAR. It must be difficult when two people moving in opposite directions at speed to judge an offside call. Off the top of my head I can recall a few bad ones (most notably Sterling away to City 13/14) but thats out of thousands of calls over the season. Not a bad record.

I've never felt like the refs were biased against us, just incompetent. I remember the Malouda pen against Finnan, I remember the Bosingwa studs into the back of Benayoun, but I also remember the Henchoz handball in the FA Cup final, and Carragher pulling lescott to the ground in the derby. Swings and roundabouts.

Do you not think VAR has ruined football in terms of not being able to celebrate goals properly?

[Santas robbed me shorts]

You know what, the assistant refs actually did a really good job pre VAR. It must be difficult when two people moving in opposite directions at speed to judge an offside call. Off the top of my head I can recall a few bad ones (most notably Sterling away to City 13/14) but thats out of thousands of calls over the season. Not a bad record.

I've never felt like the refs were biased against us, just incompetent. I remember the Malouda pen against Finnan, I remember the Bosingwa studs into the back of Benayoun, but I also remember the Henchoz handball in the FA Cup final, and Carragher pulling lescott to the ground in the derby. Swings and roundabouts.

Do you not think VAR has ruined football in terms of not being able to celebrate goals properly?

Oh its deffo ruined the celebrations, but that's down to the implementation. If the refs, like in Rugby, gave the goal and VAR stayed out of it, then we wouldn't have the same issues. Its the need to check every goal that kills the celebrations, the ref giving it or making a TV sign straight away gives us back our game.

There's a video of Carra and Neville doing offsides with refs, it shows that they guess, they say on it "if the player is here, he'll be offside".

I've seen plenty of fuck ups at Anfield, we used to sit row 3 of the Kemlyn so had a comparable view, we've seen Carvalho handle on the line and the lineo ignore it/refuse to flag, seen offsides not given, seen a lineo flag offside from a throw.

[Fromola]

By the nature of it VAR is always going to check a lot of goals anyway over tight offsides alone (fine if it's AI and instant like goalline tech, not if it takes minutes). I remember watching a montage of Owen's goals for Liverpool a while ago and I just kept thinking "that'd be offside now" or "that'd be a VAR check with the lines out". Goals you'd be properly celebrating at the time without a second thought and now you're waiting for VAR to have their play-around. There generally didn't use to be a big fuss over tight offsides, only the howlers.

It's also made linos more likely to raise the flag when it's tight. Nunez the other day, the flag probably stays down pre-VAR and nobody thinks anything of it because he's more or less level. Same with the one we were robbed of at Spurs.

I thought Mo's goal the other day summed it up. Nobody even celebrated it and Mo was motionless. Then a couple of minutes later the ref confirmed the goal just before the kick off and Mo started celebrating. That's just not what football is about.

[moondog]

Maybe all the players should stop celebrating whenever they score, the crowd too. The lack of joy whilst waiting for VAR would be much more clear to the TV audience around the world and perhaps damaging to the PL brand, perhaps then we can start to get some adaptations to improve the experience for actual supporters and allow actual celebration.

[4pool]

Referees� chief Howard Webb has renewed directives to penalise dissent in the Premier League, beginning with a new crackdown on players waving imaginary cards.

The 2010 World Cup final official also told a scheduled referees summit in Loughborough that Var must be more bold in stepping in where soft penalties are clearly wrong.

Ahead of this weekend�s top-tier resumption following the international break, Webb reaffirmed his commitment to referees taking a no-nonsense approach towards abuse aimed at officials.

To illustrate the success of the strategy, Webb told clubs at Tuesday�s shareholder meeting that this season has seen no incidents of mass confrontation, compared to eight at this point last term.

However, there have been incidents in which players have gone unpunished for waving imaginary cards. Last month, referee Simon Hooper decided against sending off Tottenham�s Destiny Udogie, who appeared to fall foul of the new ban on card-gesturing while already booked against Liverpool. Alexis Mac Allister is among players penalised for waving an imaginary card this season and Webb has now told officials the rule must be consistently enforced.

Amid claims the early season directive had been forgotten, Webb  is understood to have underlined the policy must be applied throughout the campaign and in future years.

Webb, who has made refereeing more accountable by appearing on Match Officials Mic�d Up this season, is equally keen to ensure the strong line against dissent continues.

Players and coaches were warned to expect a tougher and more consistent approach, with referees instructed to show at least one yellow card where two or more players confront them. It comes after the Football Association issued more than 20 fines, totalling more than �1 million, to Premier League clubs last campaign for surrounding match officials and mass confrontations.

Details shared by officials shows there have been 88 bookings for dissent this season, with Fulham having committed the most offences, with 11 cautions for words or gestures. Chelsea�s Nicolas Jackson, West Ham�s Lucas Paqueta and Sean Longstaff of Newcastle have each been cautioned on three occasions.

Referees in the Premier League and the EFL, in line with every other competition around the world, were instructed by the game�s lawmakers to more accurately calculate time lost to stoppages this season � including goal celebrations, substitutions and Var checks.

Webb told club shareholders meeting at a central London hotel on Tuesday new added time rules have seen the average match length rise to 101 minutes and 41 seconds.

That is three minutes and 17 seconds longer than last season, with the ball in play for 58 minutes and 29 seconds, up 223 seconds, nearly four minutes, per game.

Webb is also understood to have told the clubs that, while he wants a higher bar for penalty offences, he would instruct Var officials to intervene when that threshold was not met.

Controversial recent decisions include Wolves� Hwang Hee-chan being incorrectly penalised for a foul on Newcastle�s Fabian Schar during their 2-2 draw.

�We are asking Vars to have a look and if they don�t like the decision, ask the referee what they saw,� Webb said last week on Match Officials Mic�d Up.

�VAR shouldn�t re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field.�

[Always in a pub barney on christmas eve]

So that'll be us picking up a few extra cards now until it's forgotten about in 3 weeks.

We'll have a player sent off for dissent on Saturday.

[Santas robbed me shorts]

So that'll be us picking up a few extra cards now until it's forgotten about in 3 weeks.

We'll have a player sent off for dissent on Saturday.

My firdt thoughts too - aimed squarely at us.

[Zlen]

�We are asking Vars to have a look and if they don�t like the decision, ask the referee what they saw,�
�VAR shouldn�t re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field.�

I mean, which one fucking is it Howard?
Are they going to add more input to fix obviously crap/weak/wrong decisions by on-field refs, or are they going to refrain from doing that because it's 're-refereeing'? It's kind of different, but for purposes of PR you can obviously shove both in the very same fucking sentence and call it a day. What is the exact ruling they'll follow here? More vague, undefined kind-of-rule-but-not-really, or is there a strict and visible guideline on when and how they are supposed to interject?

Fucking twats.

[LovelyCushionedHeader]

I've genuinely never seen an issue with saying to a referee that a player should be booked. What's the difference between that and asking the referee for a foul? Especially since a lot of the time the player is likely to be correct. I only play Sunday league now but if I get pulled back on a break you can be sure as hell as I'm saying to the referee that the player should have been booked if he doesn't get out his yellow card.

As for the gesturing for a booking, it's generally only non-English players that do this where language is obviously a barrier. I don't see why say Darwin Nunez should be punished for asking for a yellow card with a gesture whilst say Declan Rice would get away with it because he knows how to ask with words. It's just punishing foreigners (and foreign players are treated very differently to English players as it is but that's a whole different subject).

Ultimately it's just the referees dealing with a problem that protects them whilst ignoring all the problems that they themselves create. The PGMOL is just a horrid organisation.

[BarryCrocker]

I've genuinely never seen an issue with saying to a referee that a player should be booked.

It's technically 'dissent by word or deed'. Asking for a booking or signaling for one is the same thing.

Also, mike up the officials.

[BoRed]

I've genuinely never seen an issue with saying to a referee that a player should be booked. What's the difference between that and asking the referee for a foul? Especially since a lot of the time the player is likely to be correct. I only play Sunday league now but if I get pulled back on a break you can be sure as hell as I'm saying to the referee that the player should have been booked if he doesn't get out his yellow card.

Yeah, it's no different to asking for a corner or a throw-in. Having said that, I'd book players who are asking for a corner or a throw-in when it's clear they were the last to touch the ball, that's just as bad as diving for a penalty or a free kick.

[BoRed]

The 2010 World Cup final official also told a scheduled referees summit in Loughborough that Var must be more bold in stepping in where soft penalties are clearly wrong.

So Harry Maguire complains about soft penalties and days later Howard Webb steps in.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/21/harry-maguire-calls-on-premier-league-to-raise-threshold-and-avoid-soft-penalties

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/22/howard-webb-var-advice-penalties-referees-premier-league

[tubby]

On paper, this is a good decision, moving away from trying to keep the on-field decisions as final, that was always an arrogant and stupid approach.  But it will still be a shit show because they'll all still be desperate to look out for each other.

[Red-Soldier]

Fully epecting us to be properly fucked over, on Saturday.

[stewil007]

Fully epecting us to be properly fucked over, on Saturday.

you mean a red card for dissent and a soft penalty given against us??

[Zlen]

Fully epecting us to be properly fucked over, on Saturday.

I mean, name me one game where we have been reasonably fairly refereed this season? Expectation is to fight against referees every game, it's just that in games where we dominate it's not as noticeable, where in this came it could very well decide the outcome. I hope we come prepared for it and not give them much to go on - though that seldom stops them in reality. If a referee feels like creating a narrative, he'll do it anyway.

[mainone]

HOWARD WEBB SAYS MAKE SURE THE FIRST GAME OF THE WEEKEND FOLLOWS MY RULES,

[4pool]

So Harry Maguire complains about soft penalties and days later Howard Webb steps in.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/21/harry-maguire-calls-on-premier-league-to-raise-threshold-and-avoid-soft-penalties

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/22/howard-webb-var-advice-penalties-referees-premier-league

[Ghost of christmas RAWK]

�We are asking Vars to have a look and if they don�t like the decision, ask the referee what they saw,�
�VAR shouldn�t re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field.�

I mean, which one fucking is it Howard?
Are they going to add more input to fix obviously crap/weak/wrong decisions by on-field refs, or are they going to refrain from doing that because it's 're-refereeing'? It's kind of different, but for purposes of PR you can obviously shove both in the very same fucking sentence and call it a day. What is the exact ruling they'll follow here? More vague, undefined kind-of-rule-but-not-really, or is there a strict and visible guideline on when and how they are supposed to interject?

Fucking twats.

I don't read the media but once again I'm assuming that no-one is calling him out on this? Saying two opposite things in one sentence. Yeah sound, your alright Webby, no issue here.

And the laughable claim that he has made refereeing more accountable by appearing on that telly show. The one where no-one questions or challenges him and he can handpick the things he wants to talk about? That's nothing to do with accountability, it's just Webb enjoying time in the spotlight, becoming a media star

[Ghost of christmas RAWK]

I've genuinely never seen an issue with saying to a referee that a player should be booked. What's the difference between that and asking the referee for a foul? Especially since a lot of the time the player is likely to be correct. I only play Sunday league now but if I get pulled back on a break you can be sure as hell as I'm saying to the referee that the player should have been booked if he doesn't get out his yellow card.

As for the gesturing for a booking, it's generally only non-English players that do this where language is obviously a barrier. I don't see why say Darwin Nunez should be punished for asking for a yellow card with a gesture whilst say Declan Rice would get away with it because he knows how to ask with words. It's just punishing foreigners (and foreign players are treated very differently to English players as it is but that's a whole different subject).

I've never had an issue with it, but the English are weird like that. Legbreaking stamps and tackles, as BRUNO Fernandes commits? No problem. Highly risky making a back moves by Harry Kane that could see a player seriously injured? Sound, lad. Outright cheating? Just being clever. Wave your hand about holding an imaginary card? Scum! We don't wanna see that kind of filth behaviour in our green and pleasant land.

It's the same as how spitting is somehow seen as worse than a forearm smash or a legbreaker

[J�lak�ttur]

Deffo set this up so that we'll have three players and Klopp sent off and two bent pennos against us.

Then back to normal next week and quietly forgotten.

[At the Xmas works do asking someone to give them one]

It is as easy to avoid a booking for waving an imaginary card as it is for taking your shirt off after scoring.

Our lads need to be disciplined. Trust our captain to handle anything that needs to be conveyed to the ref. Don't make it easy for the Manc.

[Fromola]

Referees� chief Howard Webb has renewed directives to penalise dissent in the Premier League, beginning with a new crackdown on players waving imaginary cards.

The 2010 World Cup final official also told a scheduled referees summit in Loughborough that Var must be more bold in stepping in where soft penalties are clearly wrong.

Ahead of this weekend�s top-tier resumption following the international break, Webb reaffirmed his commitment to referees taking a no-nonsense approach towards abuse aimed at officials.

To illustrate the success of the strategy, Webb told clubs at Tuesday�s shareholder meeting that this season has seen no incidents of mass confrontation, compared to eight at this point last term.

However, there have been incidents in which players have gone unpunished for waving imaginary cards. Last month, referee Simon Hooper decided against sending off Tottenham�s Destiny Udogie, who appeared to fall foul of the new ban on card-gesturing while already booked against Liverpool. Alexis Mac Allister is among players penalised for waving an imaginary card this season and Webb has now told officials the rule must be consistently enforced.

Amid claims the early season directive had been forgotten, Webb  is understood to have underlined the policy must be applied throughout the campaign and in future years.

Webb, who has made refereeing more accountable by appearing on Match Officials Mic�d Up this season, is equally keen to ensure the strong line against dissent continues.

Players and coaches were warned to expect a tougher and more consistent approach, with referees instructed to show at least one yellow card where two or more players confront them. It comes after the Football Association issued more than 20 fines, totalling more than �1 million, to Premier League clubs last campaign for surrounding match officials and mass confrontations.

Details shared by officials shows there have been 88 bookings for dissent this season, with Fulham having committed the most offences, with 11 cautions for words or gestures. Chelsea�s Nicolas Jackson, West Ham�s Lucas Paqueta and Sean Longstaff of Newcastle have each been cautioned on three occasions.

Referees in the Premier League and the EFL, in line with every other competition around the world, were instructed by the game�s lawmakers to more accurately calculate time lost to stoppages this season � including goal celebrations, substitutions and Var checks.

Webb told club shareholders meeting at a central London hotel on Tuesday new added time rules have seen the average match length rise to 101 minutes and 41 seconds.

That is three minutes and 17 seconds longer than last season, with the ball in play for 58 minutes and 29 seconds, up 223 seconds, nearly four minutes, per game.

Webb is also understood to have told the clubs that, while he wants a higher bar for penalty offences, he would instruct Var officials to intervene when that threshold was not met.

Controversial recent decisions include Wolves� Hwang Hee-chan being incorrectly penalised for a foul on Newcastle�s Fabian Schar during their 2-2 draw.

�We are asking Vars to have a look and if they don�t like the decision, ask the referee what they saw,� Webb said last week on Match Officials Mic�d Up.

�VAR shouldn�t re-referee the game and be reserved for clear situations when errors occur on the field.�

Waving cards - yellow card and unacceptable (only when it's us and not against us as article points out).

Screaming at the ref to get a player booked or sent off - acceptable (every week players are doing it to us).

Why is this the English culture?

[Fromola]

On paper, this is a good decision, moving away from trying to keep the on-field decisions as final, that was always an arrogant and stupid approach.  But it will still be a shit show because they'll all still be desperate to look out for each other.

VAR is a disaster when it comes to subjective decisions.

[GreatEx]

As for the gesturing for a booking, it's generally only non-English players that do this where language is obviously a barrier. I don't see why say Darwin Nunez should be punished for asking for a yellow card with a gesture whilst say Declan Rice would get away with it because he knows how to ask with words.

It's not like Darwin is mute - I can guarantee that every single player in the Premier League is capable of uttering the words "yellow card!". The gesture is for the crowd and TV audience, and there's a fair case to be made that that makes it a higher form of dissent.

[Elzars brussels sprouts farts]

It's not like Darwin is mute - I can guarantee that every single player in the Premier League is capable of uttering the words "yellow card!". The gesture is for the crowd and TV audience, and there's a fair case to be made that that makes it a higher form of dissent.

Running at the ref shouting "Yellow card him!!" is less dissent than sitting on the floor after being tripped up on a counter, and putting your fingers together because in the heat of the moment you can't think in your second/third language?

If you book everyone who does that gesture, you book any player that tries to talk to you after their team games a foul. There is no other reason they would be there.

[ChrisLFCKOP]

Matip will be booked every game when the refs miss understands his hand waving fits 

[Always in a pub barney on christmas eve]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67517181

Pilots and air traffic controllers have been helping England's top referees.

It is part of Howard Webb's drive, as head of refereeing, to improve standards around the Video Assistant Referee (VAR) system.

Two pilots spoke at a Professional Game Match Officials Ltd (PGMOL) training camp last month.

They offered their insight into the best method of communication in a stressful situation where multiple voices are having an input.

A previous visit last year from air traffic control staff, prior to Webb taking on his role at PGMOL in December 2022, was arranged for the same reason.

Webb has been on the back foot following a number of VAR controversies this season.

On the opening weekend of the Premier League campaign, he had to apologise to Wolves manager Gary O'Neil after Manchester United goalkeeper Andre Onana was not punished for punching striker Sasa Kalajdzic in the face in stoppage time.

Wolves lost the game 1-0.

Then Liverpool were denied a goal at Tottenham in farcical circumstances on 30 September when VAR Darren England thought he had confirmed a Luis Diaz goal but was actually endorsing an incorrect on-field offside decision against the Reds forward. Spurs won the game 2-1.

Meanwhile, Arsenal boss Mikel Arteta is facing an FA charge after calling the decision to award Newcastle a goal in their match at St James' Park on 4 November "a disgrace".

In Arteta's view, VAR ignored three incidents in the build-up all of which would have seen Anthony Gordon's effort disallowed.

The following day Arsenal released a statement in defence of Arteta.

Webb subsequently said on the internationally-broadcast Premier League Match Officials Mic'd Up programme he believed the decision to allow the goal had been correct.

In last month's meeting, as reported by The Times, it was outlined that pilots have communication with numerous people before take-off and often have to speak to operators for whom English is not their first language.

The need for clarity and accuracy was stressed.

Although match referees do not hear the conversations in the VAR hub, there can often be three voices talking at the same time, with the VAR periodically communicating with the referee to let him know what is happening.

In the aftermath of the Diaz incident, Webb introduced new communication protocols, which included confirmation over what the VAR was confirming.

Meanwhile, it is understood Webb has also reminded referees of the need to take action against players waving imaginary cards after what appeared to be a lessening of the hard-line approach used at the start of the season.

This is absolute madness.
If you're having to do things like this, then clearly VAR isn't good for the game.

[Armand9]

"Daz, Daz, is that the sign for 'fuck it, im giving it'?"
"Yep"
"Well done boys. Good process."

[Ghost of christmas RAWK]

Waving cards - yellow card and unacceptable (only when it's us and not against us as article points out).

Screaming at the ref to get a player booked or sent off - acceptable (every week players are doing it to us).

Why is this the English culture?

Blah blah blah dem greasy foreigners do it blah blah jolly old English sense of fair play blah blah playing fields of Eton blah blah they don't like it up 'em blah blah play up, play up and play the game etc

An overinflated self-image as the only purveyors of jolly old fairness (on our terms, of course) in the world, everyone else is a dodgy foreigner with suspicious intent.

Of course, give it time and it can become acceptable. Look at diving. Once excoriated across the length of this sceptered isle when only Klinsman and assorted latin types were doing it, but now celebrated when yer actual brave English heroes do it (cf Kane, Grealish etc)

[Legs]

Not sure why they need to wasting pilots time on this.

How difficult can it be seriously ?

Offside - yes or no
Goal - yes or no
Red card - yes or no
Peno - yes or no

There job done for free !

[farawayred]

Not sure why they need to wasting pilots time on this.

How difficult can it be seriously ?

Offside - yes or no
Goal - yes or no
Red card - yes or no
Peno - yes or no

There job done for free !

A lot of similarities between pilots and VAR officials - they both look at their respective objects from 35000 feet.

[Legs]

A lot of similarities between pilots and VAR officials - they both look at their respective objects from 35000 feet.

You cant make it up can you ?

Even Beadle wouldnt try something as stupid as this.

[classycarra]

Not sure why they need to wasting pilots time on this.

How difficult can it be seriously ?

Offside - yes or no
Goal - yes or no
Red card - yes or no
Peno - yes or no

There job done for free !

As much as we'd all like that to be true - that it's simple, and an easy job - it's clearly not

Anyone with a view of VAR should watch and listen to this review of the Arsenal Newcastle goal
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/17v9j3i/var_audio_released_from_goal_in_newcastle_vs/

It's anything but simple. I don't hold hawkeye or the refs in high regard, but I also don't think if everyone involved was a genius that it would be that much better implemented. The same problems of subjectivity and time-delay would remain or be exacerbated.

I don't think anyone can suggest that it's a system that's set up to achieve success in terms of simplifying things - it would need to be changed and honed down quite dramatically to allow for simplicity