Interview With Jean-Claude & Roxanne Flornoy at Aeclectic Tarot
Interview With Jean-Claude & Roxanne Flornoy at Aeclectic Tarot
Interview With Jean-Claude & Roxanne Flornoy at Aeclectic Tarot
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InterviewWithJeanClaude&RoxanneFlornoy
byBonnieCehovet IrecentlyhadthegreathonorofbeingintroducedtotheworkofFrenchTarothistorianJeanClaudeFlornoy. Hisbodyofworkincludeshandcoloredrestorationsofthe22cardMajorArcanafromtheJeanNobletTarot (Paris,1650)andtheJeanDodalTarot(Lyon,1701),alongwitharecentlyreleasecomplete78cardre editingoftheJeanNobletTarot,thoughttobetheoldestexistingMarseillestyleTarot.Thisismore impressiveprojectthanonemightthink,becausehehadthechallengeofrecreatingmissingcardsfromthe decktheSixthroughTenofSwords.Therenditionsarequiteinlinewiththerestofthedeckwell researched,andofexcellentquality.
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JeanClaudealsomaintainsanInternetsiteinFrenchregardinghiswork,whichRoxanneFlornoyhas translatedwithgreatskillandinsightintoEnglish. ThepodiumisnowturnedovertoJeanClaudeandRoxanne! ~~~~~ BC:JeanClaude,ImustsaythatIadmireyourworkgreatly.Howdidyoufirstbecomeinterestedinthe Tarot? JCF:Iboughtmyfirsttarot,aPaulMarteau,whenIwas18yearsold.IalsotriedtoreadMarteausbook. After20pagesIgaveitupasincomprehensible.Attheageof33Ipursuedarecapitulation(exercisefocused essentiallyonthemissionofArcaneXIII,findingandpurgingthechargeofthepast,toliberateenergyforthe presentandfuture),andatarotcardaccompaniedeachdayofthethreeweeksthatIspentwiththetherapist. IhadalreadyexplainedtohimthatIwastotallyuninterestedinthetarot,thatitwastoocomplicated.Hewas unperturbedbythisremark,butwantedtoknowifIlikedthestorieshetold?Hehadagreatstockof experiencesandadventurestorelatethesefascinatedme.Fourandonehalfyearslater(1986),Igotupvery earlyonadrearywintermorning,andwhiledrinkingmycoffeethetarot,itsrepresentationofeachofthe stagesofexistence,becamesuddenlycoherent.Thisvision,sincedescribedinmytext,theJourneyofthe Soul,hasremainedmybasicapproachtothetarotandiswhatmotivatesmetoseeitasaninvaluabletool forspiritualevolution. BC:WhatdroveyoutobeginthestudyoftheFrenchMarseilletradition,andtocontinuethisontothere editingoftheDodalandNobletTarots? JCF:InthetarotIfoundanOccidental,or'western',presentationofaninneritinerarywhichisbasedona cyclicperceptionoftime,ofthemother(Plato)andwoman(the'oldreligion'),asopposedtothelineartimeof thefather(Aristotle),whichwastakenupbyChristianity.TheFrenchMarseilletraditionisuninterruptedly bearerofwhatonecouldcallashamanisticvisionoftheworld.Thetarotassimilatedthisbasicallypagan informationandadaptedittoaChristianworld.Itisperthapsjustforthisreasonthatithassurvived.Itisthe only'native'Europeantraditionstillalive,atleast,initsoriginalform.Sincethissupporthaspersisted,it bearswithitthepossibilitytorepenetratethesouloftheoldmasters.Thesecardsarealinktothem,and constituteasortofmagicaccesstotheirknowledge.ReeditingNobletandDodalpermitsthistraditionto stayaliveandactiveintodaysworld. BC:Youpresent,onyoursitesandinthepamphletsthataccompanyyourdecks,yourworkonthejourney throughtheMajorArcana,calledthe"JourneyoftheSoul".Canyoutellushowyouseethisjourney,and whythe"gateway"cardsaresoimportant? JCF:TheJourneyisthevoyagethateachofusundertakes,whetherhewantstoornot.Followingapathto knowledgeentailsthatconciousnessaccompaniestheprocess.Keepingasmuchaspossibleoutofthefog helpstostayfocused.Thetarotpresentsthesuccessivephasesofexistenceandaddressesitselftothe unconsciousthroughimages.Meditatingonthesemastersimages,anditisonlythesewhichcanbe operative,littlebylittlepreparestheensembleofpsychicforces(consciousandunconscious)toliveand integrateaneverwiderperspectiveonthewayweexistintheworldswhichsurroundus.Thegateway conveysthegeneralatmosphereofaphase.Itshouldsurprisenoonethattheperiodoflifesapprenticeship shouldbeginunderthesignoftheLovers.ThematurephaseoflifebeginswithLaForce,inwhichweare constructedinthesocialworldthroughaprofession,houseorfamily.Thisleadstoaprogressiveopeningto onesinnerworld,(XIIandXIII).Wearestillinthesocialworld,butotherpreoccupationsappear.The necessitiesoftheinnerworldareprogressivelybroughtintobalancewiththoseoftheoutersphere.With Temperance,itseemstomethatherereallifechoicescometotheforeonefollowsthesignpostsofheart andpersonalradar.Thegatewaysareindispensablefortheinitiationintoeachphase.Ifthehearthasnever opened,theapprentiseshiptolifecannotbegin,andthepersonwillremaininastateofchildhood:the collectiveandfamilialwe.IndividuationcanonlybeaccomplishedoncetheLovershasbeenlived. Maturity(orcommpagnonageaprofessionalrecognizedforhiscompetence)isonlyaccessiblewitha passagebyForce,wheresavoirfaire(knowinghowto'do')isestablished. Thistransforms,overthephaseofMastery,intosavoiretre(knowinghowto'be'),Thegatewaytothephase ofMastery,MaisonDieu,signalsthepassageintotheotherworldofreality:oneisliterallybornagain.From thisstageon,alltakesplaceinthisotherworld.Thisstructuralorganisationappealstome.Othersmayfind
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thisstageon,alltakesplaceinthisotherworld.Thisstructuralorganisationappealstome.Othersmayfind ittoostructural.Butforme,mysuddenunderstandingofthetarotarrivedinthisform,fineprecisestageslike slices,periodsIcoulddate,withabeginningandanend.ItistheworkoftheoldmasterswhichIhave integratedinthisway.TheirimagesspeakmorethananyIcouldimaginecreatingmyself. BC:CanyoutelluswhattheprocesswaslikeinrecreatingthemissingSixthroughTenofSwordsforthe "JeanNobletTarot"? JCF:Ilookedatthefewcontemporarydesignsstillaccessible,andstudiedtheiconographyofthedeck itself.AvariantoftheflowerontheFourofSwordswasusedagainontherecreatedSix.Thiswashabitual indecksatthattime.ThelittleflowersfromtheexistingSwordswereanobviousinclusion.Thegreatluck factorwasthatnoneoftheCourtcardsweremissing.Haditbeennecessarytoredrawoneofthem,Idont thinkIwouldhaveundertakenthereeditionofthisdeck.Note:IconsideritagreatgifttotheTarotworldthat theCourtCardswereintact,sothatwenowhavethistremendousdecktoworkwith! BC:Allofthesectionsofyoursitefascinatedme,butonestoodoutinparticularthesectiononMaitre Jacques,founderoftheCompagnons.Canyoutellusalittleaboutthisgentleman,andaboutthe Compagnons? JCF:MaitreJacquesisthemythicalfounderofthespiritualandpracticalpathofknowledgeknowninFrance ascompagnonnage.LegendattributestheconstructionofthefirstTempleofJerusalem,(thatofSolomon, around800BC)tohim.MaitreJacquesremainstheSymbolicPersonfortheCompagnonsuptothisday. Thesecretsofhowtodiscernandusetheforceswhichissuefromtheearthhadcontinuedtobetransmitted, evenduringmosttroubledtimes,fromtheMegalithicperiod.Theearlymedievalconstructorsaimwasto rendertheseearthforcesbeneficialtoman.Theythoughtofthemselvesasbuildersofmachinesforthe transmutationofhumanbeings.Thiswasthepurposetowhichtheydevotedtheirscience.Romanesque churchesofthe12thCentury,iftheyhavenotbeenaltered,remainoperative.Theystillcapturethetelluric energywhichisparticularlystrongontheseselectednodalpoints,andirrigatethepersonswithinthe buildingwithitsvitality.Atthetimeoftheirconstruction,ceremonieswhichledtheentireassemblyina collectivetranceofhealingandheightenedawarenesswereheldinthesemachines.Noticing(andfearing) theintensityofthisdynamic,earlyreligiouspowerssawinitarealthreatandputanendtosuchpracticesby thebeginningofthe14thcentury.TheKnightsTemplarswerenolongertheretoprotectandfinancethe buildersprojects,andmostCompagnonsfledthecountrywiththeInquisition.Ihaveexplainedonmysite thewayIthinktheseexiledbuilderstravelled,firsttotheMiddleEast,thenovertimebackuptoFrance throughItaly.Theimagesofthetarotareissuedfromtheknowledgeoftheseerrantprofessionals.The imagemakersandsculptorsoftheperiodpreceedingtheInquisitionarethespiritualandtechnicalfathersof theoldtarotmasters. BC:JeanClaude,youarea"cartierenlumineur".Canyouexplainwhatthisis,andwhatyoudo? JCF:ACartierisacardmaker.Anenlumineurissomeonewho"putsintocolor"or"putsintoLight".An illuminationevokesmostlyhandcalligraphyonparchmentwithcolorfulpaintedcapitalsanddecorationsold manuscripts.Butilluminationinthelargersensecoversalltypesofartisanalapplicationofcolor.Hand stencillingwasthemethodusedforthemajorsonlyeditionsoftheTarotsofJeanNobletandJeanDodal. BC:JeanClaude,wheredoyouseeyourselfgoinginthefuturewiththeTarot? JCF:IftheresultsofdistributingtheCompleteNobleteditionareencouraging,Iplantocontinuewithoneof thethreeotherdecksmostworthyofressuscitation:theViville,Dodal,orConver.Inthemeantime,Im finishingworkonabook(inFrench)plannedtocomeoutinSeptember.Itisanextendeddevelopmentofthe 'JourneyoftheSoul'.Note:IwouldlovetoseeanEnglishtranslationofthisbook.Sendingoutthoughtsto Universethatthismaybeso! BC:Roxanne,youhaveplayedaveryimportantpartinmakingtheworkofJeanClaudeavailabletoEnglish speakingTarotenthusiasts.Iwanttotakethistimetothankyoufordoingthat.ithasopenedupaworldthat wouldnothaveotherwisebeenopentononFrenchspeakingTarotists.TheEnglishrenditionofLeTarot.com isquitewelldone.Howdidyoufeelabouttakingthisprojecton,andwhathasitmeanttoyou? RF:IhadhadnocontactatallwiththetarotbeforetranslatingJeanClaudes'TheJourneyoftheSoul'.That text,alreadyadensesynthesisofyearsofreflection,wasadauntingexerciseincomprehensionand precision.Fromthere,itseemedevidentthattheFrenchsiteneededanEnglishversion,eventhoughitisin theEnglishspeakingworldthatthereisthemostactivityandinformationconcerningtheTarot.Thissaid, relativelylittleattentionhasbeendevotedtotheTdMs,andmostofitcenteredaroundlate19thcentury derivationsfarremovedfromearlymaterials.Thisisonlynatural,asthesereferenceshavelongbeenfairly inaccessible.Participatinginthereintegrationofthesedecksintothetarotlandscape,especiallysincethe completeNoblethasbecomeavailable,isafineadventure.IamdiscoveringtheextentofNewWorldinterest inwhattheOldWorldcanfurnishwithrespecttosources.Pryingthematerialoutofmuseumsandother augustrepositoriescanrequireperserverence,.YouhavetohaveagoodreasontogetintotheCabinetdes EstampesattheBibliothqueNationale(asortofVeryCulturalFortKnox),andforanimmigrantfromthe NewWorldthisisanexploitinitself. Sincethetarotspeaksthroughimages,itwasbyanaturaltransitionthatIextendedfromverbtothedomain ofcolorsandpaper,myotherbasicaffinities.Ilearnedstencillingfromanadeptoflongexperience,andhave broughtthelasttwoeditionsoftheDodal'intolight'myself.Itisanactivityrequiringperserverenceand attention,importantinthatthecolorsthemselvesandtheirplacementarecentraltowaytheunconscous apprehendstheimages.Itissatisfyingtoreinvesttheoldmasterslineswiththelivingcolortheyneedto becometrulyoperativeonceagain. BC:ThisquestionisforbothJeanClaudeandRoxanne:Canyoutellusalittleaboutyourworkwith schoolchildren,andyourworkshoponearlyprintingandcoloringmethods? JCF&RF:Mostofthegroupsvisitingushaverequestedtheworkshopinhandstencilling,enluminureau pochoir.Theyareremindedattheoutsetthat17thand18thcenturyateliersoftenusedchildlaborforthe coloringwork,butthatsinceyoungpeoplethesedaysarebetterfedandlessoverworked,theycanexpect, withsomeattention,tofurnishbetterqualitythantheirforebears.Andtheydo.Stencillingatitscleanestis notthateasytoobtain,butlesserlevelsyieldgoodresults.Since'madeinChina'seemstobeonalllabels thesedays,wealsopointoutthatthisisnothingnew.PapercametousfromChina(inventedthereinabout 105AD),viatheSilkRoadsandtheCrusades.TheChinesehaddevelopedmoveabletypeinwoodlong beforeMr.Gutenbergsemployeesuggestedmakingitinmetal.Wehaveavarietyofwoodblockstoshow,as wellasexamplesofparchmentandhandmadetextilebasedpaper.Thecardindustrywasveryimportantat onetime,andthechildrenseethetypeofsquarecornered,plainbackedcardsthatwereusedasvisiting cardsoncetheywerenolongerfreshenoughforbettinggames.AttheMuseumoftheCityofParis,the MuseCarnavalet,thereisaKingofHeartsinscribedonthebackwithanorderforthedestructionofthe Bastille.Othersbearthekingsinvitationtobepresentathisleveitseemsthatbeingallowedtowatch himgetoutofbedwasagreathonor.Preliminariesaccomplished,thechildrengettoworkonenlargements
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of3Dodalcards.Theymustplacethestencilexactlyandnotletitmove.Thebrushmustbeasdryas possible,butwetenoughtoapplythegouache.Havingdonetheseriesof6colors,asecondcard,enlarged fromaconventionallocallyproduceddeck(1792),seemsasnapwithits4colors.Thereisnoneedtoexplain tothemthatstencillingwasawaytomassproducecoloredprintsatatimewhentheonlyalternativewas alwaysexpensivehandpaintingwithabrush.So,DodalsHermit,EmpereurandPapesshavegonehome withquitealotofchildrentodate. BC:ThisquestionisalsoforbothJeanClaudeandRoxanne.Isthereanythingthatyouwouldlikeour readerstoknowabouttheworkthatyouaredoing,oraboutTarotandhowitrelatestoourlivesingeneral? JCF&RF:Wearepleasedthatthediffusionofthisnewolddeckwillmakeviable,authenticmaterial availabletoamuchwidersphereoftarotenthusiasts. BC:IwouldliketothankbothJeanClaudeandRoxanneFlornoyfortakingthetimetojoinusinthis interview.JeanClaude'ssitesarewellworthvisiting...indeed,youwillfindyourselfreturningagainand again! ~~~~~ Bio:JeanClaudeFlornoy JeanClaudeFlornoywasbornin1950inParis.Hestudiedphilosophyandworked15yearsasapotter ceramist.Alsoduringthisperiod,heparticipatedinthecreationofseveralhydraulicpowerstations.Hehas devoted20yearstothestudyoftarot.In1996heundertooktherestorationofthetarotofNicolasConver (Marseille,1760),paintingeacharcaneongiantcanvases(220cmby110cm).Hisaimwastofaithfullybring thistraditionalimagerybackto(largerthan)lifeinallitsoriginalfreshness.Hethenprogressedtolargesized versionsofotherhistorictarotsderivedfromoriginalspreservedintheBibliothqueNationaleinParis:Jean Noblet(Paris,c.1650),JeanDodal(Lyon,1701)andanumberoftrumpsfromJacquesViville(Paris,c. 1650). Itwasinspendingthenecessaryweeksoneachoutsizedarcanethathewasabletocometo'understand' thewaytheimagesareoperativeinthemselves.Heregularlytransportstheselargecanvasesforexhibitions, andproposesconferenceworkshopsinavarietyoftarotrelatedcontexts. Thenextstepwastopublish,intraditionalhandstencilcolouredversions,the22trumpsofthetarotsofJean NobletandofJeanDodal.Theseareintendedtocorrespondineveryrespectascloselyaspossibletowhat theyresembledwhennew. Inastepawayfromartisanalproductions,butmovingoldtarotsclosertoawideraudience,anindustrial, CompleteJeanNobletTarothasjustbeenpublished. Bio:RoxanneFlornoyRoxannewasbornandraisedinManhattan.Liberalartseducation,withapenchantfor English.Shefeelsfortunatetohavecomeofageinthelate60s(theydidntsendgirlstoVietnam,atleast). Lefttowneventuallyandmovedupstatetothecountry,whereshespent3yearsgardeningintensely,never seemingtogoanywherewithoutawheelbarrow.Alliedwithapercussionist,shelefttheUSin1973withnary abackwardglance.InEuropeshespent15yearsasroadie/interpreter/organiserinthemusicworld.Three children,lotsofhomeschooling,moregardens.HerFrenchbecamegoodenoughtotranslateitintoEnglish, soshemovedintotranslations,andhelpedcreatethelocallibrary.Nowshesstilltranslating,haslearned stencilling,hopestobecometarotcompetent,keepsgardening,andisthankfulforthevarietythathasindeed spicedherlife. BonnieCehovet
BonnieCehovetisCertifiedTarotGrandMaster,aprofessionalTarotreaderwithovertenyearsexperience,aReikiMaster/Teacherand awriter.BonniehasservedinvariouscapacitieswiththeAmericanTarotAssociation,iscofounderoftheWorldTarotNetwork,andVice President(aswellasDirectorofCertification)fortheAmericanBoardForTarotCertification.Shehashadarticlesappearinthe2004and 2005LlewellynTarotReader.
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