calculate density of a powder

Let's say I take a solid

piece of pure
aluminum, with density
~2.7g/ml, and grind it
down into a fine
powder, lets say 400
mesh (37m particle
size). How can I figure
the density of this
powder under STP, i.e.
in regular atmospheric
conditions with no
added pressure? The
powder is not
compacted in any way,
except by its own
weight.

also, i want to do this

theoretically, as in no
weighing.

09-25-2009, 03:01 PM #2

Paperdoc calculate density of a powder

Golden Member

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 1,393
Can't be done by calculation because too many variables are
unknown. For example, you suggest the average particle size
might be 37 micons. IF they ALL were spherical with 37
microns diameter you could calculate the number of such
spheres at the known density of 2.7 g/ml and a known weight
of aluminum, then use the spherical packing model to calculate
the actual volume of those spheres and get your answer.
However, I just said IF they ALL were spheres, and IF they ALL
have exactly the same diameter. Neither will happen no matter
how you grind the original mass of metal. Even if you assumed
they all were spheres but had a known distribution of
diameters, I doubt you could get a really good answer, and
this is STILL not realistic.

Because the particles produced by the procedure you postulate

will be of highly irregular shape and size, you cannot calculate.
Moreover, how they pack together is impossible to predict,
because irregular protruding pieces on each particle will snag
on others. So, for example, if you were to collect all the metal
dust into a cylinder and measure the weight and volume of it,
you'd get an answer for apparent bulk density, They you shake
the cylinder and watch the volume apparently shrink. New
answer. Now someone brings in a vibrating platform to put the
container on and it shrinks more. But by how much - you
cannot predict and calculate! What will happen when you try
an ultrasonic probe?
 So the answer actually is, first you perform and carefully
define the method by which you prepare, collect, pack and
measure the dust. Then you weigh and measure volume and
calculate density. Then, to assess your process, you repeat 30
times and gather a mean and standard deviation. Now you
know with some quantifiable precision the answer based on
real-world data, but you cannot calculate from first
assumptions. And the result will change if I do the experiment
again but using a different procedure.

09-25-2009, 03:44 PM #3

Cogman calculate density of a powder

Diamond Member

Can't be done, density can vary dramatically depending on

how the particles are distributed. IE shacking a sack of
aluminum power will change the volume considerably thus
changing the density.

Join Date: Sep 2000 Kind of like how you can pore sand into a container of rocks,
Location: A nomadic herd of wild fainting goats
Posts: 9,845 but you can't pore rocks into a container of sand, even though
the amount of rocks and sand are the same.

Paperdoc's method is the only way to get a fairly reliable and

consistent answer.
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09-26-2009, 04:33 PM #4

CycloWizard calculate density of a powder

Lifer

What Paperdoc said. There were some papers in Science

about two years ago that indicated that the packing density of
uniform spheres is actually a lower limit to packing density.
There are methods by which one can approximate what the
packing density might be using simulations (e.g. Monte Carlo
Join Date: Sep 2001 settling simulations), but setting something like that up would
Posts: 12,350
be much more time consuming (and less reliable) than simply
testing. The question I have is: why do you need to know the
density of a powder? If we know how you plan to use the
value, then we could suggest a better method.
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about.

09-27-2009, 01:09 AM #5
MrDudeMan calculate density of a powder
Lifer

Not that it really matters, but this has every identifying mark
of a homework problem. There's not much to add to what the
three of them said assuming that's true. If it isn't, some more
information would be helpful.
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09-27-2009, 10:34 PM #6

soccerballtux calculate density of a powder

Lifer
Quote:

Originally posted by: MrDudeMan

Not that it really matters, but this has every identifying
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,518
mark of a homework problem. There's not much to add to
what the three of them said assuming that's true. If it isn't,
some more information would be helpful.
Lol, yea--

2.7g/ml, and grind it down into a fine powder, lets say 400
mesh (37m particle size)

hm 2.7g/ml 37 um size that's not specific at all. LOL.

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09-28-2009, 04:51 AM #7

PlasmaBomb calculate density of a powder

Lifer

Theoretically I would look up the MSDS for aluminium powder

400 mesh and it would tell me the correct density...
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09-28-2009, 10:20 AM #8

ShawnD1 calculate density of a powder

Lifer
Quote:

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb

Theoretically I would look up the MSDS for aluminium
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 16,000 powder 400 mesh and it would tell me the correct density...
The thing you're looking for on the sheet will be called "bulk
 density" as opposed to regular density. It won't be on the
MSDS but it should be on the supplier's certificate of analysis.

10-04-2009, 04:29 PM #9

gururu2 calculate density of a powder

Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Posts: 411
its very easy to do under your stated conditions and this is
what is typically done in the pharmaceutical industry.

1) Obtain a graduated cylinder

2) Place it in a balance.
3) Zero the balance.
4) Fill the graduated cylinder to a desired mark with your
powder (say 10 mL)
5) Record the weight.

you have to weigh it. otherwise, if you know the dimensions

of the block before grinding and place all of it into a
graduated cylinder, you will already know the total mass and
can then dervie the density directly by seeing how much
volume was occupied.

This will give you g/cc which is the density of the material
without any physical manupulation.
Stop overthinking it AT.

10-04-2009, 05:31 PM #10

PlasmaBomb calculate density of a powder

Lifer
Quote:

Originally posted by: gururu2

its very easy to do under your stated conditions and this is
Join Date: Nov 2004
what is typically done in the pharmaceutical industry.
Location: In a pub... in Cumbria
Posts: 11,781
1) Obtain a graduated cylinder
2) Place it in a balance.
3) Zero the balance.
4) Fill the graduated cylinder to a desired mark with your
powder (say 10 mL)
5) Record the weight.

you have to weigh it. otherwise, if you know the dimensions

of the block before grinding and place all of it into a
graduated cylinder, you will already know the total mass
and can then dervie the density directly by seeing how
much volume was occupied.

This will give you g/cc which is the density of the material
without any physical manupulation.
Stop overthinking it AT.
Quote:
 also, i want to do this theoretically, as in no weighing.
BTW the weighing counts as physical manipulation, since
you have to transfer the powder from the box to the cylinder.

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10-04-2009, 05:52 PM #11

gururu2 calculate density of a powder

Senior Member

Join Date: Oct 2007

Posts: 411
if you know the physical dimensions of the aluminum block,
all you need is a measuring cup. no balance required

10-04-2009, 06:43 PM #12

frostedflakes calculate density of a powder

Diamond Member

He meant that OP wanted to calculate density theoretically,

not using quantitative methods.
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10-05-2009, 04:59 PM #13

magomago calculate density of a powder

Lifer

Join Date: Sep 2002

Posts: 10,684
So what he is essentially asking for is how much air did he
introduce between the particles?

The best you can do is make assumptions to the shape of the

particles...For Ease, I would say take spherical shapes. Now
take a cube slice out of it. The density of the spherical shape
in that cube slice should stay the same so you can find the
mass since you defined the size of the particles. Then find the
theoretical volume of air in between the particles as Volume
Cube - Volume Particles; go from there and find the mass of
air. Now add the two masses and divide by the cube volume.
That is the theoretical new density.

But honestly that isn't going to give you very accurate results.
As paperdoc said, things are WAY too variable in a situation
like that. You can't prove that are the particles in there are of
the same size, let alone prove that the spacing between each
particle is the same. I did my mse undergrad design
project/thesis (well it was just me on the project lol) on
cryomilled copper and i'll tell you right now that it isn't
perfectly spherical shapes. IMO my biggest concern isn't the
particle size (really you are getting an AVERAGE particle size)
as much as it is the volume of air between each particle. The
theoretical method may get you a ballpark estimate, but
you'd really need to weigh the powder for a given volume size
to get an answer...and even then its only the density of the
sample you weighed; To make things more accurate i'd
probably (as suggested) see if it can be vibrated for a while
prior to measurement to let everything get nice and snug
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