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TRANSCRIPT,'

carl Rogers(c.R. ); (s creamingin thebachground)r' mcarr Rogers.This musr

seem confusing and odd, and so on, but I, I felt really sorry that the
interview had been kind of cut short 'causeI sort of felt maybe there
were other things you wanted to say.
Loretta: I don't know, I'm being moved all right, transferred..And I was
just wondering if I'm quite readyfor a transfer.I've mentioned that-it's
annoying, that woman talking, uh, she'sbeen yelling like that (referring
tc patient uko keepsscreamingin thebachground).r realiy rather like it on
my ward. (C.R,: M-hm, m-hm,) And I have been helping . . . I had
thought maybe I could go home from rhere. (C.R.: M-hm, m-hm.) I
know being transferred means I'll probably be put to work in the
laundry all day.(s*eaming in thebachground)And I don't feel quite up
to that.
C.R,: M-hm, m-hm. So that's one immediate thing of concern..Am I ready
to facewhatever'sinvolvedin moving awayfrom the spot where I've-?"
Loretta: You get kind of oriented to one place when you're here.
C.R.: M-hm, you get sort of used to it and-
Loretta: oh, I meant to correct one thing. when I said"no" before,I didn't

*This
interviewwith Loretta is Tape Number one in the Audiotape Library of the
American Academy of Psychotherapists. This transcripr was prepared by lv{arco
Temanerand emendedby NathanielJ. Raskin.

33
 34 \'IE\fS FRONI WITHIN
"no"' that I was
mean I was tired of talking to that cloctor'I just meant'
ready to, that I wondered rvhy I couldn't go home'
on that
C.R.: Yeah, yeah. That you felt he didn't quite under-stand1ou
(screamingin th'ebackground),that really'-
(loud screamingin the back'
Loretta: Maybe he thought I was being blunt
"no," I didn't rvant to talk to him angnore'
ground). . . a.td that I meant
(Loud screaming)
if l, if I sensesome
c.R.: LTtr-huh. (scteamingcontinuesintennittentl\.) lrnd
that' uh' maybe he
of your feeling now, i1 is, uh, a little tensenessthat'
of-
dijn't really g:etthat. Maybe he thought you were' sort
Loretta: I thought he thought I-
C.R.: Shutting him off, or something'
And that isn't
sd Loretta: Yesl That's what I had thought' (C'R': Lrh-huh')
u'ondering if that
a{ what I meant- (C'R.: tlh-huh') tlh,1 don't know' I'm
important around
10 transfer is a good thing. I mean, they make you feel so
Then when I go
w here, arrd rtilt i',ru arJn't, but- (C'R': irn-hm'rnhm')
over to Two, I knorv that's an open r'vard,that's [a] dormitory' and I're
vr! 'cause I don't like to
w( been wearing not so many of my own clothes
Ra launder them. Just wonder if I'm re ady for that change'
i,n

C.R. M-hm, and that-

'Causemy father and that don't come to visit me or anything' so
Loretta:
I don't get out at all on weekendsor anything'
Is it in the ward where
C.R.: M'hm. . . . And I'm not quite sure about this'
you so important'
you are now that you feel, yeah, they seeT ,to make
Is that-?
tut then really you're not' lScreamingin the background)
not' (C'R': M hm') I
Loretta: That's really it. I'm important, but I'm really
I knorv that' you're
probably wouldn'i b. on the other ward, either' Well
not very important when you move to that ward'
you are right norv'
C.R: I see.So that if you're not very important where
you feel then if you rvere transferred, even less so'
Loretta: Even iessimPortant'
C.R.: So that's something that concernsyou'
too' and I'm not
Loretta: I think it means working all da,vin the laundry'
this tickling sensation
quite ready for that. I mention!d earlier that I had
inmvkneeswhenlwasonSLxCwhenlrvasgettingReserpineanda
I askcdthe doctor
tranouilizer- ((,. R.:)t-hm, m-hm') I tlrink itl'as' And
 The Caseof Loreta: ltanscript 35

at that time if he lrould move me, so I could go to'work and work in the
laundry. (C.R.:M-hm, m-hm.) And the r.u.rrf.r.u.n" today.I didn,t
ask
to be transferred, though, this time.
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. But it troubles you as to tvhether you,rereally ready
to
face some of the things that rvould be involved.
Loretta: I don't knorv, there isn,t much to face, it's kind of confusing,
I
think.
c.R.: I see' It's more a question of facing trre uncertainties,is that
what
1'OUmean?
Loreth: I don't know nhar I mean (titttelaugh). . . I jusr know that_
C.R.: Right now you feel kind of mixed up?
Loretta: \vell, I knolv there's Anita on *rat rvard that I did.n't trust verv
far (banging in tlrc backgrortnd)becausc she,s the one that
ort -" on
shocktreatment.
C.R.: I see.
Loretta: Or I think she did, anyway.(C.R.:M-hm, m-hm.) And srill she
put
^the
her arm around my shoulder when I came back, but it . . . sh. was
one that told me I had to go on it and I had done nothing that I knerv
of to be put on that kind of treatment.
c.R.: So that there's somerhing that's rear confusing. It would be putting
you next to a person who seemed to like you and put her arm "ror.rJ
you and, by gosh, was responsible for shock trearmenr.
Loretta: right' . . . of course she said it rvasdoctor's orders, but I
.That's
hadn't talked to a doctor that I knew of ar the time. (C,R: M-hm, m_hm.)
And. I tnow that they gave them to . . . even though that wa, a
work
ward they had them go over to the treatment ward and then back
to
the rvork ward. (C.R: N{-hm, m-hm.) (Screamingin the bachground,)
And
then to work.
C.R.: M-hm, sure you heard, the explanation was doctor's orders
and all
that, but you can't help but feel, ,,Isshe really trustworthy?,,,Causehere
tn she seemedto-
Loretta: No, I don't trust people anyway,an)rrnore.(C.R.: M-hm,
m-hm.)
That's why I don't rvant them to rrust me. I either berievein them
or i
don't believein them.
C.R.: M-hm, and all or none.
Loretta: And I don't quite think I believein her rery much.
36 \'IE\qS FROM \VITHIN
"I don't think I
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. Ancl really rvith most people you feel,
'em."
rusL
Loretta:That'sthetruth,Idon'ttrtlst'errt'(Screaminginthebackground)
'em, or I clon't believe'em or I don't' I'm not quite certain
Eitherbelieve
I don't
rvhether I believe them yet or not' (C'R': M-hm, m-hm') But
believein, trust anYmore.
ottt
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. That's one thing that you feel has really dropped
for you, that just to trust people' Not for you'
'em. . . . You can get hurt much too easilyby
Loretta: No, I don't trust
trusting PeoPle.
trust go
C.R.: NI-hm, tn-hm. If you rcally believein someonc,and let your
out to then-r,then-
'em'
have any trust, that's lvhy I can't ict any trust go out to
Loretta: I don't
happened in
C.R.: M-hm, but eviclentlyyour feeling is that when that has
the past-
Loretta: Youjust get hurt bY it.
C.R.: That's thc rvayyou can gct htu t'
Loretta: That's the way I haaebeen hurt'

C.R.: That's the way you lzauebeen hurt'

(pounning the.
Loretta: I don't mind being moved. I mean if it's, uh !7
(C'R': Mhm')
bachground),uh, anothei thing toward going horne'
I
(Scriaming in the background')But I clon't get out arLy\iay' arrd-I don't'
get any
don't know that he, my brother, I rvrote a letter' but I didn't
ansrverfrom him. (Screamingin thebackgrouncl) (C'P.': M-hm' m-hm') He
never calne.
saying,is that
C.R.: M-hm. It isn't that, at leastwhat I understand vou to be
but it's the
it isn't the practical question of the move so much that' uh'
question of-

Loretta: If I'm quite ready for that'

C.R.: Yeah, are you, are you ready for a next step,is that it?
that I know'
Loretta: I don't think I'm going to like rvorking in the laundry'
'Cause I didn't like it either (Announcenwnton
[ofl the other nvo times'
PA systemin the bachgrowzdlA.nd' I don't think I care too much [for]
there
*o.kirrg on [thel f.,oi center over there, either, becauseI worked
 '.1
i r e C a s c t . , 1L o r c t t a : l r a n s c r i p t ),

beforc, and I didn't care for it. (C.R.:M-hn.r,m-hm.) \'!'ell,I didn't have
anything . . . I . . . the first day I rvorked all right, the second day I s'orked
about a half an hour, and I blackedout, and I tried it 3 more days,and
I blacked out each day,so . . . Ijust quit trying to work there. There was
too much electricity or something.

C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. You feel something was lvrong over there? Too much
"that really had abad effect on me'when I lvas
electricit)'or something,
working there."

Loreth: It did. I blacked out, completely.If I l.radn'tgone to sit dorvn, I

would have fainted.

C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. You feel really you wcre in, in kind of a desperate rvay,
at those points?

Loretta: No, I didn't feel desperate.Ijust, I didn't undcrstand it, I didn't

knou, 'lvhy I blacked out.

C.R.: I sec.

Loretta: It did frighten me, though. I just couldn't work, so-

C.R.: It wasjust something very odd happening to you.

'Cause I don't have epilepsy seizuresor anything like that, so I
Loretta:
couldn't imagine rvhat it was. I don't, I'm not, I don't usually have
fainting spells.
"What is irappening to me?"
C.R.: N{-hm.Itjust made you feel real puzzled.
Loretta: \\rhat it was, yeah, I cried,but I couldn't work, and they rvanted
me to rvork, so . . . sometimes I think yor-lget put back on treatment if
you refuse to work.

C.R.: lJh-huh. \\'e11,ma1'be, maybe shock treatmcnt is really something

they may use for punishment if you don't do the things the lvay they
rvant you to do?

Loretta: l\Iell, it rvould appear that way from rvhat everybody says,but I
don't rhink I rvaseven,I don't knorv wl-rythey even gaveit to ne in the
first p1ace.I rvasjustbeginning to come to, enough to realizc that I rvas
in an institution, I think. (C.R.: M-hm, rn-hm ) And the next thing I
"You're reaclv,you're on treatrnent." (C.R.: M-hm,
knerv, the,v said,
"Why? I didn't do anything. I haven't had any fight
m-hm.) And I said,
"\Vell,
or an.ythingwith an,r'bod,v." (C.R.:M-hm, mJrrn.) And they said,
"Well, I haven't even talked to a doctor."
doctor's orders." And I said,
38 VIE\(/SFROM \?ITHIN

BecauseI hadn't talkcd to one. (C.R.: M-hm, m-hm.) At least I didn't

know it if I had. (C.R.: M-hm, m-hm, m-hm.) And so-
"Hcre I rvasjust beginning to comc to life a
C.R.: So to you it seemed,
little, really to knorv a little bit lvhat rvasgoing on."
Loretta: I was just begimring to realize I was in the hospital- (C.R.:
Uh-huh.) When they put me on it, and they put me to rvork the same
duy'
C.R.: And then you fccl that for no reason you could discern, zingo, ,vou
were-
Lorelta: And I began talking very badly and everything, and I still havcn't
forgotten some of the things I said.
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm, nrhrn. It feels that, that sort of brought out the t'orst
in you, is that whal you mean?
Loretta: If I had a rvorstpart. It was like it wasn't even me talking.
C.R.: I-rh-huh. Almost seemed as though this-
Loretta: And then I went home weekends, and I got in trouble there,
because I talked so much. Of course, I rvas getting Sodium Amytal,
too, so it might have been the combination of the two, not just the
one thing.
C.R.: But there, too, I guessI get the feeling that you're wishing you could
understand that part of yourself; was it something that $'as not you
talking, or lvas it just the effect of the drugs, or u'hat was it that made
you-?

Loretta: It rvasthe combination, I think. (C.R.:Uh-huh.) If you notice, my

...Imovemyfeet.

C.R.: Yes,I did notice.

Loretta: As I said, my knees tickle. (C.R.: Ivl-hm, m-hm.) And I, I don't
know if it's the drugs I'm getting or l'hat, but it's sometlting I can't helP.
It isn't *rat I'm so terribly nervous that I can't sit still, that isn't it. I do
that at group meetingsor anything, and I can't control them. It's rather
embarrassing (ktughsnnuow\ ).

C.R.: And you rvould like me to understand that it isn'tjust tensenessor

somethilg, it's, uh-
Loretta: No.

C.R.: It's sinrply the-

 I i t e t ' . t r e ( r l L - ( ' lc L L ' l : I r ' r r l s ! ' r l ' '

Lorerta: Somerhing I can't control.

C.R.: Uncontrollablc tickling sensations.(Screarningin thebachground)

LoretLa: In my knees anrl that far up, and my feetjust move' If I'm sitting
uDthereinthecorneralone,thatisn,tsonruch,butmykneesstilltickle.
(i.n, Ht-t.r-, m-hrn.) But rr'hen I get in a grouP, and that, my, I don't
know, theyjust move.
C.R.: It scemsas though being in a group makesthis $'orse'
I-oretta: \Vell, I have it rvhen I'm alone sometimes, too' (C'R: M-hm'
m-hm.) I think it's the medication I'm getting'
C.R.: \Vell, probably iCsjust the drugs?
Loretta: I think it's the green mcdication I'm getting' I don't even know
'causeI haven't askecl,but then- (C'R': M-hm') (Parue)I think
what it is,
these meetings are \'€ry enlightening (little laugh)'
C.R.: Do you?
Loretta: Wel1,if you can't think quite clear at the timc, you can think about
it later.
C.R.: N't-hm,m-hm. And in that sensethey, they're somelhat helpful in
(hangzngin the backgrourzzl) making you think morc clearly afterwards?

Loretra: I think I've been helped a lot ity, more by talking than I have by
the pills, and that.
C.R.: N{-hm,m-hm. It really,it seemsas though getting things out to some
degree in talk-
Loretta: Seemsto alleviatelvhatcver the situation is (C'R : M-hm, m-hm')
If it's createda situatior-rthat seemsto alleviate . . . I wish that $'oman
would quit screaming.
"\\rhy doesn't she stop?"
C.R.:
Loretta: She can't stoP tholrgh, that's the lvorst of it ' ' ' That givesyou a
terrible feeling, luhut't goittg to happen to you if you end up in a' like
that.
C.R.: Yeah,yeah, part of the, pirrt of the disturbance of that noise is the
"\{y god, could this }'rappento me?"
feeling,
just
Loretta: \'es. (C.R.: tr{-hm, m-hm.) Exactly.And you tl-rinkyou could
about go out of your head just from hearing that ail the time' That's
b..., g"oingon for 3 da1'snow, and rvhy did they give her that much'
she, if it's t'ho I think it is, she $'as up on the rvard for one of those QIM
 40 \TEWS FROMVITIIIN

clinics,and I satnext to her, and she saidsomcthing abor-rtliking to talk,

and all of a sudden she rvas,shejust began talking and didn't quit.
C.R.: So this seemskind of arvful,that here is this person and-
Loretta: She rvasall . . . perfectly all right then, calm; she rvasn't talking
or arlything-
C.R.: Next to you and so on, and no'w'hereiCsjust going on and on-
Loretta: You should tirink, I tliought they could relieve those, not make
them worse.
C,R.: It's kind of discouragingin a scnscto fcel that thc,v,it seemsto you,
that they aren't helping her.
Loretta: Yes, considering it's an admission rvard, and they shouldn't be
that far out of their heads.It's more like the drugs thev're giving after
they're here are doing it to them.
C.R.: Almost makes you feel, "Ar'e they making her worse with their
drugs?" Is that-?
Loretta: That's right.
C.R.: And that's kind of a disturbins-
Loretta: I think it is.

C.R.: Thought, too-

Loretta: Becauseafter all, I'm getting drugs, too, and I wouldn't want to
end up like that.
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. It can't help but raise the question in you, "\{buld the
drugs they're giving me make me like that?"

Loretta: That's right. And then once you're that wa1',what can you do
about it? Only, only I know u'hat they're like and I can see it, so I have
enough control to hang on to myself, enough to keep from just batting
my head against the wall, like, uh. . , . Some of them had that feeling,
ard theyjust can't control it. They . . . I've seenso much of it and heard
so much of it that I can hang on to myself a little bit.
C.R.: Those things are kind of--
Loretta: I think that's why, pardon me, I think that's whv m1'knees tingle,
though, becauserather than batting my head against the wa1l,I have
c tiat t)?e of reaction.
d'
. $ C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. So in a sense,-voucan hold yourselfir-renough so vou'rc
tr
il
 'Iianscript
T h c C e s eo f L o r c t t a : 41

not going to bat your head againstthe rvall,and yet it's as though it has
to come out someu'here.and it. uh-

l,oreta: Comes out in the tickling. It's terrible!.

C.R.: Comes out in the tickling of your knees.

Loretta: Because. . . well, I've seenon dre outside, too, so I mean I know that
. . . iCsjust futile to bat 1'or-rrhead. Why anylvay,I tirink my head's too
valuable to bat against thc wall (Iaughs).It's my orvn head, and I like it.
"I'm
C.R.: \bu feel by gosh, not going to smasirmy head againstrvalls."

Loretta: That's right. After all, God gave me that head, that's the iiead I
rvant. I'm not going to bang it against the rvall, even if I like to, which I
really rvouldn't like to do, anyrvay. . . . \{ell, rv}ry,how does that help
that girl to be in . . . locked up like that and screaminglike that?What,
I mean rvhat . . . beneficial aid is she getting out of tl-rat?Anything?
"What earthly
C.R.: I guess that's the question you'rc asking yourself,
sooct-:
Loretta: No, I'm asking1ozr.
C.R.: You're asking me. \Vell, I'm not on the liospital staff, and I really
guess I rvouldn't try to answer becauseI don't knorv heq and I don't
know anything about it. But rvhat I can understand is, is the way that
'Cause
affects you and the feclings that it stirs up in you. it sounds as
though with you that, that is disturbing not only from the noise frorn
hcr but the things that it (screamingin the bachground)stirs up in you.
I-oretta: I don't know. I'm all mlxed up. I rvant to (loud screamingin the
bachground) go to Ruilding One, but I knon'Building One's not the next
to homc. . . . But if.I could go home from One, I'd be happy. . . . But
I'r,ebeen there before. I know it's going to be a great changefrom this
'cause
building. I hate to leavethis building, it's quite beautiful. . . . But
still, it, maybe it's better than listening to that girl screaming all day,
every day.
C.R.: It's a real touglr choice to make.
Loretta: But I hate to think tl-ratI'm going to have to go to rvork in the
laundry room. I'd rather. . . and there isn't as much to do arounclthat
rvard as thcrc is here, that much I knor.v.
C.R.: Ir{-hm, m-hm. You feel that, uh-
Loretta: lbu can relax and.justsleep,becauseyou do havebeds,but I don't
think they do. I think rhey expect you to work if you can. (C.R: N{-hm,
 42 VIEWSFROM V'ITHIN
I1
I
{ m-hm.) They don't go that far as to just let you rest like you're in a
1
hospital for a rest. (Screamingin the bachground)Keep you rvorking all
il
the time.
I C.R.: If it, if it representeda chance to rest, then you rnight like it, but if
it's a chancejustto rvork all the time, uh, then you're not sure that that's
rvhat you want.
Loretta: I don't think l'm ready for it. (C.R: Uh-huh.) Bccausemy knees
tickle, maybe that's. . . . I rvorked in the laundry before, and I know. I
got along all right. I knorv I can gecalong norv, but-
C.R.: "I cor.rlddo it, but, uh, am I really ready for it?"
Loretta: Though why?
C.R.: "Why?" M-hnr.
Loretta: I packed my o1r'ngrip, so I'm all ready to go. I didn't say,"No, I
won't go," becauseI'm alwaysputting up a big fight about it. (C.R.:
M-hm, m-hm.) If it's an improvement, well, I'm willing to go along with
ir.
C.R.: NI-hm.A chanceyou're rvilling to take although within yourself,you
feel a lot of qi;estion about it.
Loretta: I rather like seeing them admitted, although I can't say that I like
'em
to see Bet worse. But when they improve it's quitc a joy to, to be
where they're all coming in and going out.
C.R.: It kind of helps you inside, when they, when they'-
Loretta: To know that otlers get well and can go home.
i
C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. So that you're sort of discouragedand encouragedby :
what happens to others.
ii-
Loretta: I had thought, I had thought that I'd go home from here because {,'.
I hadn't done anything very serious- (C.R.: M-hm.) I hadn't, uh, had
any violent struggle with anybody, or anything like that.
C.R.: That's part of your feeling all the *'ay through, "I haven't done z'
anything wrong, I've hcld myself in, you know, I really have not been
violent, I haven't broken many ru1es."
l
Loretta: I haven't broken any, I don't think.
:
C.R.: You haven't broken any-
Loretta: And half the time you haveto find outwhat the rules are,because .
..
thev don't tell va.
 t h c C a s c o f L o ; . e t t . r :I r , r i r s c r i p r 4j

C.R.: M-hm, m-hm. But your feeling is, ,,I,vebeen good.,,

Loretta: But I haven't been roagood, though, (screamingin thebackground,)
You shouldn't go overboardabout being good, too.
1C.R.:M_h-. lI do.,.'t
believein that, either. (C.R.: M-hm.) I've been as good as I know horv
to be. (C.R.: M-hm) And I'm nor letter-perfect.I rvoulcllike to be, but
I'm not.
C.R.: But in terms of .rvhatyou can do, you feel you've d.onethe best you
can do.
Loretta: I'm doing as good as I know how.
C.R.: M-hm. Loretra, I know that some of thesepeople havegot to go, and
I expect we've gor to call it quits, I appreciatethis chance to tJk wirh
yoll.
Loretta: And thank you very much. I knorv that you're very important
people. That's what I've heard, anyhorv.
 COMMENTARY

THE CASE,
OF LORETTA
A PsychiatricInpatient

Nathaniel J. Raskin

THE INTERVIEIT AND ITS CONTEXT

'I'm
Carl Rogers.This must seem confusing and odd, and so on, but I, I
felt reaily sorry that the interview had been kind of . . . cut short 'cause I
sort of felt maybe there were other thinqs you wanted to say.,'Thus does
Carl Rogers open his interview uith LJretta, a ,rute hospital inpatient,
diagnosedas paranoid schizophrenic,in the summer of lg5B. The Ameri-
can Academy of Psychotherapistswas in the middle of its 4dav Second
Annual Workshop ar the University of Wisconsin in l\Iadison. The 30 or
so participating therapists were gathered in a small auditorium of the
hospital to observe one another in actual practice. Loretta had been
previouslyinterviewed by Albert Ellis ro demonstrarehis rational-emotive
approach and by psychiatrist Richard l'elder to demonstrate the experien_
tial method of his Atlanta group, rvhich inclucled Carl \{hitakei Tom
Malone, and John \A'arkentin.
F,llis and Felder had had a difficult time rvirh Lorerta, and there was
in th-isdiverse group of experier.rcedtherapists for Rogers ro rry
1..ll"o:
his hand *'ith her. He was only too willing, as he hadsuffered thiough two
interviewsin which, from his point of view, this woman's expressedfJelings
and attitudeshad nor been respondedto empathicalll'.Ellis,the claybefori,
had tried to help Loretta to seethe irrationalitv ofher behavior,and Felder,
earlier on this day, had attempted ro engage her in a person_rGperson
dialogue about, among other things, a dream he har_lhacl about her thc
 1 h e C a s c o f l - o r c t c a ;C o r n m e r c a r y 4.t

isht belore.
r'gnr
Iilg oerore. rt was tne
the rntervrcw
interviclv with ,t
Felder
elder to rvhich Rogers referred
when he said he thought Loretta might have felt cut short. Lfter Rogers
agreed to the intervierv, Loretta, wl-rohad returned to her rvard, was askcd
how she fek about rerurning to tark to still another psychotherapist;hcr
responsewas positive.
Aside from attending this rvorkshop as the first president of the
American Academy of Psychotherapists,Rogers had moved from the
university of chicago to the university of wisconsin the year before for a
joint professorshipin Psychologyand psychiarry.This bearsdirectly on the
intervierv with Loretta, becauseRogerssawhis appointment at wisconsin
as providing an opportunity to test the hipotl-resisthat clientrentered
therapy would rvork with a schizophrenic population. This woutd be
explored comprehensively in a large-scale research project (Rogers,
Gendlin, Kiesler, & Truzx, 1967); the inrerviervwith Loietta was a si-ngle
clinical test of Rogers'h1'pothesis.

THE SIGNIFICANCEOF THE INTERVIETJT

The case of Loretta is significant in at least trvo ways.First, it is one of the

few verbatin recordingsof a thcrapeutic interview,ndthin any orientation,
with a psychotic patient. Second, it provides a concrete example of the
application of clicnt-centercdtherapy to a psychiatricinpatient diagnosed
as paranoid schizophrenic.The interview shows how a deeply disturbed
individual ma1'respond positively to the therapist-offeredionditions of
empathy, congruence,and unconditional positive regard.
One stereotype of client-centercd therapy is that it is a superficial
approach that works primarilv rvith ,,normal people," for example,
college students with minor problems. Rogers .nay huu. contributed to
this belief in counselingantl pslchotherapl e942) his first book-lenqth
exposition of his approach, in rvhich he statecl,as one of the tentat]ve
criteria for attempting psychotherapy of any kind, rhat rhe individuar be
"reasonably
free from excessiveinstabilities', (p. 77). His position was
radically different in his next book, Ctient-Centei,retlTherapyitgS t;. H...
he rvrote:

Presentopinion on applicability must fake into account our experlence.A

client-centeredapproachhasbccn usedu'ith trvo-year-orcl chirdrenand adr-rrts
of 65, rvith mild adjustmenrprob)cms.such as studentstudy habits, and the
most severedisordersofdiagnosed psychotics.. . . An atmosphereofaccep-
tance and respect,of deep understanding, is a good climate for p"..o.,"I
growth, and as such applies to our children, our colleagues,our students,as
well as to our clients,rvhethcrthe-sebe ,,normal,',neurotic, or psvchotic.This
w

+b \.IEWS FROM \!TTIIIN

condition,and indeedthe
doesnol meanthat it rvillcureeverypsychological
conceptof cureis quiteforeignto the approach'(pp' 229-230)

The interview with Loretta lasted about 30 minutes. Some of the

notervorthyoccurrencesin this brief encounter,eachof which is amplified,
indude:

1. Loretta's explanation of her side of the process of ending the

just{ompleted interview with Dr. Felder. It rvas clear that the
opportunity to clarify this was important to her.
2. Her exploration of the problem of an impending transfer to
"presentingprobleln," a reai one'
another ward. This was her
3. The transition from this specific issueto the question of rvhether
she was able to trust people in general and whethcr she could trust
the hospital staff in her treatment.
4. Her expressionsof disffessand confusion about the treatment of
a patient heard screaming in the background continually through'
out the interview'
5. Her descriptionsof peculiar sensationsof tickling in her knees and
of a feeling of electricity in the air when she had rvorked in the
hospital laundrY.
6. Heiemerging positiveself-regardas the interview progresscd'

Loretta explninshn sideof theprocessof endingthejust-completed interuiey'

After introducing the subject of her impending transfer to another ward,
Loretta wishes to clear up a possible misunderstanding of her attitude
about ending the interview just concluded with Dr. Richard Felder'"Oh, She
makes it ciear that the opportunity to clarify this is important to her:
'no' before, I didn't mean I was
I meant to correct one thin8. When I said
'no,' that I was ready to, that I
tired of talking to that doctor. I just meant
"Yeah, yeah' That
wondered why I couldn't go home." Rogers empathizes:
you felt he didn't quite understand you on that really."
At *ris point, screaming can be heard in the background, but Loretta
"Muybe he thought I was being blunt and
responds to Rogers' comment:
'no,' I didn't want to talk to him anlTnore " To rvhich Rogers
thal I meant,
"tlh-huh. And if, if I sense some of your feeling norv, it is, uh, a
responds:
littie tensenessthat, that, uh, maybe he didn't really get that' Maybe he
"
thought you were, sort of . . . shutting him off, or somcthing Loretta
"YeslThat's what I had thought."
agrees:
Rogers'emPathicresPonsesin this dialogue facilitate Loretta's expla-
nation, and, apparently satisfied that she has clarified her position, she
then returns to the issue of the ward transfer'
 I l.reCaseof Lorerta:Comrnentary

Loretta exploresthe problenr of an impending transfn to another uard.

"I
Loretta norv begins to explain her concern, her presenting problem:
don't knorv. I'm being moved all right, transferred.And I wasjust wonder-
ing if I'm quite ready for a transfer.. . . It's annoving, that $'oman . . . yelling
like that (refering to patient uho keepsscreamingin the bachground).I really
rather like it on my ward."
The ward transfer is clearly an issuc of great importance to Loretta,
She devotes about one quarter of the interview lvith Rogers to it. To
summarize some of her attitudes about it:

I don't kno'w'if I'm ready for the work that would be involved in the
transfer. I'd hate to work in the laundry room; I'm not even
kecping up rvith my orvn laundry now. And when I rvorked in the
food center in that rvard, I had real physical trouble. I bla&ed out.
Even though the hospital makes a pretense that the Patients are
. important, I'm not really important on Iny present ward and
rvould be lessso on the new one.
At one time I wanted the transfer,but I didn't ask for it riqht now.
I'm confused.
If the transfer is a step closer to my dischargefrom the hospital, that
lvould make me falor it more.
I like the building I'm in, becauseit's beautifui, and there's more to
do here, but it rr'ould be nice to gct away from that screaming girl.
I rvouldn't mind going to the new ward if they let you rest there, but
they keep you working all the time.
I lvas able to work in the laundrv when I '!vasthere before. I know I
can do it now, but I'm not sure I'm ready for it.
I rvon't refuse to go. I've even packed my own grip. If it's an improve-
ment, I'm rvilling to go along with the move.

Rogerscommunicateshis empathic undcrstanding of theseattitudes.

Specificalll', he recognizes Loretta's feelings of confusion and uncertainty
about whether she is ready for this change in her life. He acknowledges
that it is a tough choice to make and articulates Loretta's feeling that it
might not be what she reallvwants.This seemsto havethe effect of helping
Loretta, after considerable exploration, come to a resolution of a very
difficult and troubling issue:She would be willing to give the transfer a try,
even though she is not sure she is ready for it.

Loretta'sexplorationof the isnLeof theward transferleadsherinto theqttestion

of uhethersheis able to trust peoplein general.After Rogers empathizes with
Loretta's feeling of confusion ("Right now ,voufeel kind of mixed up?"),
48 \TE\?S FRON{\q]THIN

"Well, I know there's Anita on that u'ard that I emp

she moves to a new issue:
because she's the one that Put me on shock Lort
didl't uust very far
that
treatment." Later in this segment, responding to Rogers' understanding
irapl
and acceptanceof her distrust of one person, Loretta sharcswith him the
"I don't trust people any\\'ayanymore"' A little
breadth of her disuust:
"You can get hurt much too easilyby trusting people'" The
Iater, she adds,
attitudes she expressesin this segment can be summarized as follorvs:

I clon't trust the staff person who I think wasresponsiblefor my Setting

shock therapy. She acted friendly and said it was done on
"doctor's orders," but as far as I knolv l hadn't talked to a doctor'
ln a very general way, I don't trust people anymore' I've been hurt
when I did.
I don't understand why they suddenly ordered shock therapy for me'
I wonder if it was becauseI said I couldn't work and they didn't
believe me.
All of a sudden, I n'as given shock and assigned to work'
tot
scr€
Rogers deals with Loretta's difficulties in trusting people by consis-
the
tendy ulng to appreciate her feelings and percePtions' For example, when
for
Loretta'expre.r.r h.. lack of trust about the staff member who orches-
"So that there's something the'
trated her shock trea[ment, Rogers replies,
that's real confusing. It would be putting you next to a person who seem,ed Par
unc
to like you and put her arm around 1'ou and, by gosh, was responsible for
shock treatment." He also empathizes with her feeling that the shock Pat
"\4'ell, maybe, maybe
tleatment is used to get her to perform her duties:
shock treatment is really something they may use for punishment if you
int
don't do the things the way they $'ant you to do?"
go1
Implicitly, in the way he responds,Rogers invites Loretta to correct
I ''.: eitl
him when he has not gotten her feelings exactly right. This is cxemplified
r on
when she begins to discussher inability to trust PeoPlebecauseit inevitably !
did
leads to get;ing hurt. When Rogers responds with rvhat appears to be f
I
"That's the way you can get hurt," Loretta goes further the
accurate i*putttyt I
"That's the way I haaebeen hurt." Whereupon Rogersaccepts hor
and states: !.
"That's the way you hauebeen hurt"' t- da1
her clarification: t . or
Loretta exprasa distras and confiuion about the treatmentof a patient :1 -
during the interttieu. A dramatic ov€
frequzntl2heari screamingin the bachground
i :
.:.
on
aspectof the audiotape recording of this interview is the sound of another I
fric
female patient screaming in the background. After mentioning it in her
'_ ^f

thi
hrst staiement, Loretta does not bring up the subject again until more than
i _

rea
halfway into her dialogue with Rogers, even though the sound is" piercing
"I
and rather constant: *ish that lvoman would quit screarning Rogers'
 The L.rscoi Loretra:eolnluentary 49

empathic responseis in the form of a question: "Why doesn't she stop?"

Loretta'sanswertakesher into a personal concern: "She can't stop though,
that's the rvorst of it. . . . That gives you a terrible feeling, .rvhat'sgoing to
happen to you if you end up in a, like that."
Some of the attitudes expressedbv Loretta in this section are:

That ll'oman's screaming really bothers me. You could go out of your
head hearing that aII the time.
I'm worried that I could end up like that.
I sat next to her, and she seemed perfectly all right. She was calm and
not talking.
You rvould think the hospital could help somebodl,like that, not make
her lvorse.
I think maybe it's the drugs thcy're giving her.
I'm getting drugs, and I'm worried I could end up like that.

In his usual way,Rogersresponds with explicit empathic understandit-rg

to these concerns. He verbalizes Loretta's fear that what happened to this
screaming woman could also happen to her, as lvell as her suspicion that
the hospital staff had caused her disturbance rather than relieved it. Note,
for example, the following empathic responsc: 'Almost makesyou feel, 'Are
thcy making hcr worse with their drugs?'" On the basis of Loretta's
participation in the dialogue, one may reasonably conclude that she feels
understood regarding her misgivings about the treatrnent of the screaming
patient and her fear that she could end up the same lvay.

Loretta describes sensationsof tichling in her hnea and afeeling of electricie

in theair. Loretta explains her expcricnces as follorvs:"I don't think I'm
going to like working in the laundry, that I know. 'Cause I didn't like it
either the other tt'o times. ... . And I don't think I care too much working
on food center over there, either, becauseI rvorkcd there before, and I
di{n't care for it. (C.R.:Mh-m, m-hm.) Wcll, I didn't haveanything. . . I . . .
'rvorked all right, the second day I worked abour a half an
..'the first day, I
hour, and I blacked out, and I tried it 3 more days, arrd I blacked out each
day,so , . . I just quit trfng to work there. There was too much electricity
or something."
To this, Rogersreplies:"NI-trrn,m-hm. You feel something l\'aswrong
over there?Too much elcctricity or something, 'that really had a bad effect
on me when I was rvorking there."' And :rller Loretta describes horv
frightened she felt by her blackouts,Rogers responds, "It wasjust some-
thing very odd happening to you," and then, "M-hm. It just made you feel
real puzzled.'What is happening to me?' "
A little later, Loretta describesanother s)Tnptom:"If you notice, my
50 \4EViS FROM W]THIN

"Yes,I did notice." And

. . . I move my feet." To 'lvhich Rogers responds:
Loretta further explains:'As I said, my knees tickle. (C.R.: M-hm, m-hm.)
And I, I don't know if it's the drugs I'm getting or rvhat,but it's something
I can't help. It isn't that I'm so terribly nervous that I can't sit still, that isn't
it. I do that at group mectings or anything, and I can't control them. It's
rather embarr assing(laughsneraousll)."
Rogerslistensrespectfullyto Loretta's experiencethat the sensations
"It
are specific to particular situations: seemsas though being in a group
ma-kesthis worse." He is also responsive to Loretta's belief that her
"Well, probably it's just the
symptoms are caused by her medication:
drugs?" Later Loretta comes up with another explanation for the sensa-
'And
tions in her knees.She has been discussingthe patient $'ho screams:
rhen once you're that way, what can you do about it? Only, only I knorv
what they're like and I can see it, so I have enough control to hang on to
myself,enough to keep from just batting my head againstthe wall, like, uh.
. . . Some of them had that feeling and they just can't control it. They . . .
I've seenso much of it and heard so much of it that I can hang on to myself
a little bit. . . . I think that's why my knces tingle, though, becauscrather
than batting my head against the wall, I have that tlpe of reaction."
"M-hm, m-hm. So in a sense,
Rogers then responds: vou can hold
yourself in enough so you're not going to bat your head against the wall,
"
and yet it's as though it has to come out somewhere,and it, uh . . . Loretta
"Comes out in thc tickling." Rogersacceptsher
finishes Rogers'sentence:
"Comes
way of putting it: out in the tickling of your knees."
The striking feature of the interaction bettveen Loretta and Rogers on
the topic of her odd sensationsis that he is just as respectful of this kind
of experience on the part of a hospitalized schizophrenic as he would be
"normal" client. His unconditional positive
of the everydayexperienceof a
regard for Loretta, together with his empathy and genuineness,apPearto
facilitate her movement toward a rational explanation of what initially
appeared to be bizarre symptoms.

Loretta exprusesgreatn positiueregardfor herselfas the interaieu progresses.

The interview with Loretta illustrates a dynamic observed by Rogers from
the earliest days of client-centered therapy: If the therapist conveys an
empathic understanding and acceptanceof the client's negative feelings,
the client is freed to experience positive aspectsof self and others. For
example, immediately after the dialogue about the tickling in her knees,
"it'sjust
Loretta says: futile to bat your head. Why anyway,I think my head's
too valuable to bat against the wall (laughs).It's my own head, and I like it."
Here is a dramatic expressionof Loretta's belief that she is a worthwhile
"That's right.
person. Similarly, in her next exchangewith Rogers, she says:
After a1l,God gave me that head, that's the head I rvant.I'm not going to
 i l r e ( , r s eo f L o r e t r . rC: o n r r r r c n t a r . i 51

bang it against the u'all, cvcn if I like to, lvhich I really wouldn,t like to do.
..
?.:ryway.. Well,I'h1',how doesrharhelp that girl to be in . . . lockedup
like that and screaminglike that?What, I mcan what . . . beneficialaid is
shegettingout of that?Anyrhing?"
Rogersreplyhereis,"I guessthat'sthe questionyou'reaskingyourself,
'tr\'hatearthly
good . . . ?' " Lorerrainrerrupts Rogersat this poini and says,
"No, I'm asking.yorr." Here,then,
we seeLor.ettastandingup to this noted
psychologist, lettinghim know whatshemeanr:Shewantsto know whatDe
thin-ksof the treatment of the screaming patient. There are other exarnples
in the intervierv of Lore tta's insistenceon bcing understood exactiy.One
such instance occurs rvhen Loretta is descr.ibineher blackouts. One of
Rogers' responsesis "N.{-hm,m-hm. you feel really you were in, in kind. of
a desperateway,at those points?" Loretta corrects Rogers'statement:,,No,
I didn't feel desperare.I just, I didn't understand it. I didn,r knorv why I
blackedout."
These examplesof Loretta's insistenceon being understood exactly
are the second indication of her emerging self-regardin this interview. A
thircl, somelvhatmore indirect, expressionis reflected in her assertionthat
therapy has been helplul to her: "I think these neetings are very enlight-
ening (little laugh). . . . I think I've been helped a lot by, more by talking
than I haveby the pills, and that. . . seemsto alleviatewhateverthe situado;
is." Loretta's statemenrrhat talking to professionalsis more helpfirl than
medication suggeststhat her participation in the treatment process is
valuable. The intervierv with Rogers provides an example of her active
stancein such a situation.
It is notelvorrhy,too, thar rvhile talking to Rogers,Loretta expresses
concern that others may perccive her as not being good or as acting
antisocially,in some wav.Thc first instanceoccurs soon after the intervierv
begins, $'hen Loretta notes that she lvants to correct an impression she mav
have made: "Oh, I meant to correct one thing. When I rr-id 'r-ro'before. i
didn't mean I rvastired of talking to that doctor. Ijust meant, .no,' that I
was readv to, that I rvondered why I couldn't go home.,' She explains that
her intention rvasnot to be blunt, that she dicln't mean to be insr-rlting,and
that she did not want to be perceivedthat wav.
Another instanceof hei rr ish to be perceir,,ed assomeonewho behaves
in an acceptablerhanner occurs during her discussionof having received
shock tl-rerapy.She says:"I had done nothing that I knew of to be put on
that kind of trearment." Implicitly she is expressinga concern thai she is
being perceived as having done something ,,bad." This hypothesis is
confirmed by rvhatshe saysa felv minutes later: .And the next thing I knew,
they said,'You're reaciy,you're on trearmenr.'. . . And I said, ,WhyiI dian't
do anything. I haven'chad any fight or anyrhing with anybody.' ;'
Later in the intervierv, Loretta brings out her perception that the
52 \4EV'S FROM \{'ITHIN
"I
decision about her releaseis related to whcther she has acted out: had
thought that I'd go home from here becauseI hadn't done anything very
serious.. . . I hadn't, uh, had any violent strugglervith anybodl',or anything
like that." In his responsc,Rogersrecognizesthat this is an issuethat has
"That's part of your feeling all the rval'
run throughout the interviov:
'I
through, haven't done anything wrong, l've held myself in, you kr-ro'iv,I
"
really havenot been violent, I haven'tbroken many rules.' Loretta replies:
"I haven't broken any, I don't think." And then she adds, 'And half the
time you have to find out ra'hatthe rules are, because they don't teil ya'"
"Mllm, m-hm. But your
Rogers then reflects her underll-ing asscrtion:
'I've been good.' "
feeling is,
"But I
Loretta's responseat this point is interesting and significant:
haven't been too good, though. . . . You shouldn't go overboard about being ,;,
too good. . . . I don't believein that, either. . .' I've bebn as good as I knorv
how to be. . . . And I'm not letter-Perfect.I 'rvor-rld like to be, but I'm not."
"But in terms of what you can do, you feel you've done the
Rogersreplies:
"I'm doing as good
best you can do." And Loretta affirms this comment,
as I know how."
Here is an issueimportant to Loretta that she resolvesin a way that
e.{pressespositive self-regard.She articulatesan impressiveacceptanceof
self:She is only as good as she really is, that shc is not perfect, and that she
"overboard about being good."
does not believein going

IN THE INTERVIEW
ROGERS'BEHAVIOR :

In the courseof demonstrating how Loretta dealt with sir areasof concern
during this intervielv, many illustrations have been given of thc wav Rogers
interacted with her. An examination of the entire interview reveais a
remarkable consistencyof empathic responsivenesson Rogers' Part. Of all
of his responses, there are perhaps only one or two in which Rogers did '|
something other than try to convey to Loretta his understanding of what
she was sharing with him.
Loretta was responsiveto this emPathic approach' She advanced from
one area of discussionto another (e.g.,from the presenting problem of a
oossible ward transfer to the issue of her lack of trust in the institution and
in people irr general), and she made progress t'ithin specific areas (e'g',
resolving her conflict about moving by deciding that the transfer might be
an improvement and that she would not fight it). In addition, Rogers'
empathic approach seemed to facilitate increased self-understanding and
acceptanceaswell asa greater ability to view problems more clearly.Finally,
Loretta's responsivenessto Rogers' therapeutic style is evident in the
comments she makesimmediarely folloltine some oF his responscs;state-
 Llrc Lasc of Lore rrrr: (,onlrnentary .)j

ments such as "That's really it," "Yes, that's what I thought" and ,,That's
the truth," all indicate that she truly felt understood.
In addition to a high degree of empathy, Rogers provided trvo other
therapist characteristicsincluded in his classicformulation of "necessary
and sufficient conditions of therapeutic personality change": uncond!
tional positive regard and congruence.He accordedLoretta the samekind
of respect he rvould any client; his motive for intervieu-ing herwas his sense
that her feelings had been insufficiently understood and respectedin the
first wvo demonstrations.He displayedunconditional regard for her belief
that there rvas electricity in rhe atmosphere of the laundry and for the
tickling sensationsshe exlceriencedin her knees.He respectedher choice
of topic, her manner of exploring each one, and her decisionsto switch to
other issues.I count 24 times in this short intervier.vthat Loretta took the
initiative in introducing a new subject, going back to one she had been
exploring earlier,coming up with an insight or nel\i attitude, or exercising
some orher form of self-direction.
Another index of the client-centerednessof tl-ris intervietv is the
number of lines in the printed transcript taken up by Loretta's starements
(218) and the nunber raken up by Rogers' (131). Many psychotherapists
pay lip service to respecting the strength ,of their clients. However, an
examination of typescripts,when they are available,characteristicallvshow
Adlerians,Jungians, Gestalt therapists,cognitive therapists,family thera-
pists,and others dominating the interaction between client and therapist.
This is often true of psychoanalyticallyoriented tl-rerapists, as weli. Client-
centeredtherapists,becausethey eschet'the role ofexpert, are consistently
lessverbose,in spite of the usual reliance on lvords to convey empathic
understanding
Some support for these assertionscomes from an analysisof the
interview materialin CaseStudiesin Pslchotherapy (\'!'edding & Corsini, lgBg).
This book includes casesreated by therapists from a variety ofapproaches.
AI1 casesthat included verbatim intervieu's lvere tallied for the number of
linesspokenby the therapistand the number spokenby the client or patient.
As Table 2.1 indicates,the Adlerian, rational-emotive, and cognitive thera-
pists outtalked their clients or patients by a significant margrn. eualitatively,
they are also quite directive. This is tme, for example, of Friu perls, the
Gestalttherapist.Eventhough he doesnot dominate in the number ofwords
spoken,his interviervis repletenith commentslike, "Saythis to them,,' ,,Now
play the bedroom," "Nor.v be the kitchen again," "Stay ltith rvhat you
experiencenow," "Be phony." PeggyPapp,the family therapist,is also quite
directive;she speaksfor a "Greek chorus" of observing therapistswho are
rvatching through a one-wa,vmirror. (The 325 client lines in rhe table
representthe output of all fii'e members of the family being treated by papp. )
By contrasr,Rogersis consistentlyempathic ivith "tr{rs. Oal," a client
 54 \4EWS FROI4 \\,'ITHIN

Table2.1. Number of fl t Lines ken by Ther ts and Clients

Orientation Therapist(s) Therapist lines Client lines
Adlerian N{osakand N{aniacci 268 227
Client-centered Carl Rogers lt)5 401
Rational-emotive Albcrt Ellis 554 290
Cognitive Aaron Beck 398 182
Gesta.lt Fritz Perls 204 540
Family Peggy Papp 253 325
Based on yerbatim inrerview material contained in Wedding
-A/ote.
and Cor.sini (19g9).

us saw over a tong

he long perrod
period ot
of tlme
time in the 1950sand.lvhoseinterview
the early 1950s
*'ith Rogcrswas rhe one included in \A'eddingand Corsini ( 1989).
Further_
more, Brodley (1991), in classifyingRogers, responsesin 34 interviell,s
between 1940 and 1986,found 1,65bempathi. ...po.r.., out of a
total of
1,928 responsesof all kinds, for an ,,ernpathypercentage,,of g6.
And, if
Brodley's (1991) thr-ee1940 interviews fiom ilie caseoi..Herberr
Bryan,,
(the eight'interview case that took up approximatery tv.'o-fifths
cf counser-
ing and PsychothnaNry [Rogers, 1942]) arc ornirred, Rogers' empathic re_
sponsesrise to a remarkable 902o.
Rogers came to vierv congruence or genuinenessas ,,the most basic
of the attitudinal conditions that fostertherapeuricgrowrh" (Rogcrs,
1980,
p. 2158). I grant rhar the judgment of genuineniss is very iublective.
However, I was present at Rogers, inter;ielv with Loretta and
I have
carefrrlly reread the tJpescript. From this I find Rogers to have been verv
much up front with Loretta and trury interested in f,er. He meant what
he
said,and he responded to her on the level of another human being rather
than from the pedestal ofan expert.
As emparhic is he was, I noted one lapse in Rogers,
.consistently
responsivenessto Loretta. Loretta referred to her famiry t' u
co,rpi. of
occasions.Early in the interview, she says:"'cause my father and that'don,t
come.to r,,isitme or anything, so I don,t get. out at all on weekends
or
anything." Then, a few minutes later, Loretta remarks: "I clon't mincl being
moved, I mean if it's, uh, . . . uh, another thing rolvard going home. (C.Rl
t-1-.)- . . But I don't get our anyway,and I don't, I don't-knorv that he,
my brotheq I wrote a letter, but I didn't get anv answerfrom him. . . (C.R.:
.
M-hm.) He never came."
While Rogersresponds,,,M-hm"to Loretta,sreferencesro going home
and to her brother's nonresponse,by returning to the issue of the
move
he does not add the explicit recognition he gen-erallyaccordsto Loretta,s
 I lliJUJSe ()l Lr)icltt; C ( , r t r i l | l r l l t a lyf J)

feelings ar-rdattitudes. If I-oretta l-radpursued the topic, it is likely that

Rogers would have come around, but at this point he failed to facilitate
I oretta's going further wirh her disappointment about not seeing or
hearing from her father and brother, and lvhat appears to be a strong
interestin being dischargedfrom the hospital and going home.
Is this a significant failure in empathy? When one listens to the
audiotape of this intervierv,as distinguished from reading the transcript,
this and other errors do not appear so glaring. This is supported by the
recorded discussionthat follorved Rogers' interview rvith Loretta. About
30 members of the American Academy of psychotherapists. most of
whom werc nor clienr-centcredtherapisis,observed this inrerview and
attended a question-and-ansrversessionwith Rogers immediately after
Loretta left. While the reactions were polite, rhey were largely critical.
Why had Rogers failed to supporr the staff of the hospital? Why had he
not pointed out connections among some of the things Loretta had
talked about? There lvere many other remarks of this sort, but nobody
in this audience, which included a number of noted psychoanalysti,
commented on Rogers' failure to respond to Loretta,s referencesto her
brother and father.
This said,it still may be rvorth speculatingon the reasonsthat Rogers
_._
did not pursue this particular topic. Was there something in Rogers,life-in
his background-that made him disinclined to follow up I_oretta'srefer-
encesto her iamily? In Kirschcnbaum's (1979) biography of Rogcrs, he
notes the following:

In my first interview with Rogers he told me, ,,I hate old people who
reminisce."He has frequentlymade comments like, ,,Wecould count on t}te
fingers ofone hand the people ofour own age we really enjoy.The rest are
all coo stuffy." When he worked on his .,autobiography;'in I g65 for a
collectionof autobiographicalessaysby well-knorvnpsychologists,he said it
took him and Helen [his wife] monrhs to recoverfrom spending that much
time looking in the past. Both the scientist and the artist in him were
operating here; both sidesneeded new challengesand could not be content
with past accomplishments.Beyond this, for Rolers, an interestin the future
alsowent hand in hand rvith his associationwith young people.He had always
valued his contact with graduate students,and this continued after he left
the university setting. As he described it, "probably the major factor in
keepingme aliveasa growing therapistis a continuing associationwith young
people on a thoroughlv equalitarianbasis.I have alwaysworked with younf
staff members;I havenever found people my own age stimulating exccpt fo;
rare and fortunate exceptions.I find that )'ounger people are full of new
ideas,exploring the boundariesofour disciplinesand raisingquestionsabout
anv sacredcolvswhich I hold rlear.This keepsme stimulated,moving, and I
hope grorr'ing." (p. 396)
55 \TEWS FRO]\4\TITHIN

Rogers'family rclationshipsseemto be consistenrr.r'iththeseattitudes.

He was closestto Helen, his wife of 55 years,his children, David and Natalic,
and his sk grandchildren. His interest in some of his owrr siblings appeared
to decline with the years,probably becauscof a lack of sharedvalues and
interests.
It may be, then, that in respondit'rgto Loretta, Rogcrs'otr'n issues
influenced his "overlooking" I-oretta's references to her brother and
father; clearll he was far more attentive to her currcnt concerns such as
her move and her difficulty in trusting the hospital staff. This lapse, i
however, detracts only slightly from an extraordinary intervierv-one that
7
offers a superb example of the client-centered approach being applied
successfi-rllyto a woman disturbed enough to be a patient in a psychiatric
statehospital wirh a diagnosisof paranoid schizophrenia. ', t
:,
ai
REFERENCES
h

Brodley, B. T. (1991,July l-6). Someobseruations of Carl Rogers'uerbalbehador in. et

therapl intnaiews. Paper presented at the Second Inrernational Conference

on Client-Centeled and Experiential Psychotherapy,Univcrsity of Stirling,
Scotland.
Kirsclrenbaum,H. (1979).On becoming Carl Rogers.Nerv Yolk: DelacorrePrcss.
Rogers, C. R. ( 1942). Counselingand pslchotherapl.Boston: Houghton Miff lin. i.

Rogers, C. R. ( 1951). Client.centercdtherapy.Boston: Houghton Nlifflin.

i
Rogers,C. R. (1980). Client-centeredpsychotherapy.In A. N{. Freedman, H. L
Ibplan, & B. J. Sadock (Eds.), Comprehensiue textbookof pslchiatrl/Ill (pp. li
2153-2168).Baltimore: Williams & Wilkins. t
Rogers, C. R., Gendlin, E. T., Kicsler, D.J,, & Truax, C. B. (Eds.). (1967).'fhe h:
thnapzuticrelalionshipand its impact:A studl ofpsychotlrcrap1with schinphrenia.
Madison: Unil'ersity of WisconsinPress.
\4'edding, D., & Corsini, R.J. (Eds.). (7989). Case*udies in pslchotherapl.Itasca, IL: i
t
Peacock. ti
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