Use of Present Perfect With "Until" - " Until He's Eaten Everything" (Duplicate)

8/30/2018 tense agreement - Use of present perfect with "until" - "...
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Use of present perfect with “until” - “…until he's eaten everything” [duplicate]
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until + perfect present / present 1 answer
I came across the following sentence and I would like to ask if it is grammatically correct to say the second one also and if we can what will it mean?
1 .His parents make him stay at the table until he's eaten everything.
2. His parents make him stay at the table until he eats everything.
tense-agreement
edited Apr 21 '16 at 9:51 asked Apr 20 '16 at 15:05

Mrt
5,009 20 80 163
marked as duplicate by user24743, Varun Nair, ColleenV ♦, Nathan Tuggy, M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ May 3 '16 at 18:28
This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.
1 They're both "grammatical", and I don't really see how anyone could draw a meaningful semantic distinction. But idiomatically I think #1 is probably more likely. On the other hand, with something like The headmistress makes the teacher mark exam papers
until he goes home you couldn't possibly say ...until he's gone home. – FumbleFingers Apr 20 '16 at 15:30
@FumbleFingers Thank you that example makes it clear – Mrt Apr 20 '16 at 15:45
1 Answer
until really requires an event.
"he has eaten everything" definitely provides that event- the moment the last morsel is finished, junior
may leave the table. The action is completed, and the consequences of that action are in Junior's
stomach. It's the same as "he has posted the letter".
"he eats everything" is less satisfactory: it sounds more like a habitual action, which does not provide
an event. Set against that, "his parents make him stay at the table" is a habitual action- they always
make him do it- so the present simple as a habitual action is justifiable in that context.
Some verbs indicate events- throw, fall, die and swallow. Others like read, run, watch and eat are
activities. An activity has a minimum of two events- a start and an end- it can also have a middle, but
that's not so precise. When talking about past activities, we normally assume that the end is the event
I read this book yesterday (could be continuous, could mean finish)
for future activities, we normally assume that the start is the event
We will eat at 7pm. (future, start)
We eat at 7pm (planned or habitual, start)
We can indicate that we don't mean the normal event using start and finish
I started reading this book yesterday
We will finish eating at 7pm.
We usually finish eating at 7pm.
With until, we use present perfect simple to indicate future completion of activity verbs. Compare these
two sentences:
I will stay up until I have read this book (PPS - sounds OK)
I will stay up until I read this book (present simple - sounds strange)
using PPS with event verbs in the positive definitely seems wrong:
We will shop until we have dropped
But in the negative, it can be used to imply doing something after the event
Don't open your present until I have gone.
edited Apr 21 '16 at 6:43 answered Apr 20 '16 at 15:36

JavaLatte
35.9k 2 37 83
3 In that context "he eats everything" is not a habitual, but a neutral present-tense form. The reason it is less fitting is that it is
a process (that probably takes some time) rather than a point in time. "Until he has eaten everything" means "Until the point
in time when he has eaten everything" but that interpretation isn't possible with the present "eats". – Colin Fine Apr 20 '16
at 16:05
1 @ColinFine: agreed, present simple doesn't work as a neutral present tense form because it doesn't offer an event, eg
completion. That would also make it unsuitable in the context of the parent's habitual action. IMHO, habitual/habitual does
at least make some kind of sense. – JavaLatte Apr 20 '16 at 16:17
1 +1. Except that eat implies completion. You haven't eaten what you're chewing. – Tᴚoɯɐuo Apr 20 '16 at 19:10
The coach makes us run wind-sprints until we fall over in exhaustion. (no need for 'have fallen' ) – Tᴚoɯɐuo Apr 20 '16 at
19:14
@TRomano, when you fall, it's an event. you can't fall again until you get back up again. I can eat and eat and eat and eat
and eat... and I don't get fat! – JavaLatte Apr 20 '16 at 19:48
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8/30/2018 tense agreement - Use of present perfect with "until" - "...

This question already has an answer here:

edited Apr 21 '16 at 9:51 asked Apr 20 '16 at 15:05

until really requires an event.

I read this book yesterday (could be continuous, could mean finish)

We will eat at 7pm. (future, start)

We eat at 7pm (planned or habitual, start)

I started reading this book yesterday

We will finish eating at 7pm.

We usually finish eating at 7pm.

We will shop until we have dropped

Don't open your present until I have gone.

edited Apr 21 '16 at 6:43 answered Apr 20 '16 at 15:36

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