This article was downloaded by: [Carnegie Mellon University]

On: 12 January 2015, At: 17:01

Publisher: Routledge
Informa Ltd Registered in England and Wales Registered Number: 1072954 Registered office: Mortimer House,
37-41 Mortimer Street, London W1T 3JH, UK

Art Therapy: Journal of the American Art Therapy

Association
Publication details, including instructions for authors and subscription information:
http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/uart20

A Dialogue with James Hillman

a
Shaun McNiff Professor of Expressive Therapy and Dean
a
Institute for the Arts and Human Development at Lesley College, Cambridge,
Massachusetts
Published online: 27 Dec 2013.

To cite this article: Shaun McNiff Professor of Expressive Therapy and Dean (1986) A Dialogue with James Hillman, Art
Therapy: Journal of the American Art Therapy Association, 3:3, 99-110, DOI: 10.1080/07421656.1986.10758680

To link to this article: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07421656.1986.10758680

PLEASE SCROLL DOWN FOR ARTICLE

Taylor & Francis makes every effort to ensure the accuracy of all the information (the “Content”) contained
in the publications on our platform. However, Taylor & Francis, our agents, and our licensors make no
representations or warranties whatsoever as to the accuracy, completeness, or suitability for any purpose of the
Content. Any opinions and views expressed in this publication are the opinions and views of the authors, and
are not the views of or endorsed by Taylor & Francis. The accuracy of the Content should not be relied upon and
should be independently verified with primary sources of information. Taylor and Francis shall not be liable for
any losses, actions, claims, proceedings, demands, costs, expenses, damages, and other liabilities whatsoever
or howsoever caused arising directly or indirectly in connection with, in relation to or arising out of the use of
the Content.

This article may be used for research, teaching, and private study purposes. Any substantial or systematic
reproduction, redistribution, reselling, loan, sub-licensing, systematic supply, or distribution in any
form to anyone is expressly forbidden. Terms & Conditions of access and use can be found at http://
www.tandfonline.com/page/terms-and-conditions
 A Dialogue with James Hillman
Shaun McNiff is a Professor of Expressive Therapy and Dean, Institute for the Arts and Human
Development at Lesley College, Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Introduction iment of the psyche. The image

James Hillman stands out among lives; is treated with respect; is dis-
psychological writers of the twen- tinct from the person of the client
tieth century as an inspirational and and the therapist; is to be inter-
useful ally to the art therapy profes- preted and understood, phenome-
sion. Howard McConeghey, Pro- nologically, on its own terms; is sa-
fessor and Director of the art therapy cred, and a manifestation of lithe
graduate program at the University gods" themselves. This psychology
of New Mexico, has been suggesting of the image presents an extraordi-
this for many years. Hillman's value nary challenge to art therapy. Are
to art therapy lies in his demonstra- we capable of understanding and
tion of how to reverse the most fun- heightening the wisdom, complex-
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

damental theoretical presuppositions ities and gifts of images? Are we ca-

and habitual behaviors of psycho- pable of allowing images to speak
therapy. Rather than analyzing art for themselves, and hearing, or
through the methods of psychology, seeing, what they communicate to
he urges psychology and psycho- us?
therapy to engage art. In the tradi- Prerequisite knowledge is needed
tion of Friedrich Nietzsche, one of for our profession to fully engage
the most influential philosophers of the image. This guidance cannot be
the late nineteenth century, Hillman gained exclusively through contem-
calls fur the breaking of the con- porary systems of psychological
tainers of professions that limit vi- analysis and psychotherapeutic prac-
tice. The image can be fully under- Dr. James Hillman eM. RINALDINI, 1986
tality. He urges us to create new
metaphors for what we do, or better stood only through cooperative
yet, resurrect ancient continuities of studies of culture, the fine arts, liter-
culture. ature, history, religion, philosophy, made here to the readers of Art Ther-
The psychological writings of and myth. Where the appeal of apy. He is as committed to the act, as
James Hillman are particularly useful many popular contemporary psy- to the idea, and minimizes distinc-
to art therapy because of the pri- chologies lies in their ability to con- tions between the two. Hillman goes
macy of the image in his thought tain experience, and place it within beyond Dionysian/Apollonian du-
and his practice of psychoanalysis conceptual boundaries, Hillman alites and introduces us to poly-
and therapy. Rather than approach- does the reverse. He challenges our morphic modes of understanding. It
ing images as clinical data serving ability to open and embrace diver- is from the perspective of poly-
rational systems of analysis, Hillman sity, and readily acknowledges what theism, constantly evoked by Hill-
approaches the image as the embod- he does not know. Describing him- man, that his work can be best un-
self as polemical, he questions dog- derstood. The image can say
matism and the unconscious accept- different things, some of which may
ance of psychological principles contradict one another. Our re-
"Rather than approaching simply on the basis of their position sponse to the image will predictably
within the mainstream. Like Socra- change. There is no single, correct
images as clinical data tes, Hillman serves as a gadfly, interpretation of an artwork or
serving rational systems stinging the anaesthetized mentality dream, although there will be some
of analysis, Hillman ap- within us, and stimulating an that suit the image better than oth-
awakening of critical judgment. ers. There is no single human ego
proaches the image as the What is perhaps most unusual responsible for the creation of the
embodiment of the about James Hillman is his ability to image. The images have a live force
psyche." complement philosophical inquiry unto themselves, and do not belong
with an exemplary respect for the to individual people. "The dreamer
animal, as revealed in the statements is in the image rather than the image

November 1986, ART THERAPY 99

 in the dreamer" (Archetypal Psycholo- of the field and the speech of the and providing cautions as to how we
gy, p. 6). soul seem to go most at cross-pur- approach it. He demonstrates the
Hillman is sharply critical of the poses.... The language of psychol- need for learning and cultural
"creative ego" which he sees as ogy insults the soul. It would ster- knowledge combined in his case
usurping a "godlike capacity." He ilize metaphors into abstractions. We with a lifetime of clinical and artistic
not only helps to respect the rights are made ill because it is ill" (The experience. Hillman's involvement
of images, dreams and artworks that Myth of Analysis, p. 121). However, a with ideas does not suggest separa-
we too often approach with inter- principal focus of his writings is pa- tion from the commonplace, what is
pretations that are more likely to re- thology. His complaint is with how practical and useful. He draws from
veal our internal preoccupations, but it has been "viewed, treated and Blake and Keats in describing his
he suggests how we might lighten condemned." "work" in the world as "soul-mak-
the loads of our clients who feel the James Hillman wants psycho- ing," He is also critical of idealistic
unspoken burden, of being "cre- therapy and psychology "to move and spiritual ascent, preferring de-
ative," within the art context. Hill- towards art." He supports art thera- scent into the world, what he calls
man perceives the world as continu- pists who desire to speak, and act, "insearch ," Hillman cites Wallace
ous creation. If we approach our as artists, without abandoning re- Stevens to support this mission:
clients with attitudes of helping im- spect for the context within which "The way through the world is more
ages to emerge naturally, we might we work, and the many other disci- difficult to find than the way beyond
just help to further the "quality" of plines and points of view that are it."
embodied by the present mental
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

what comes forth. It is the single ego

function that most restricts the vi- health field, Hillman is not suggest-
tality of the many faceted person. ing a new artistic monotheism or James Hillman now lives in
Not only does the "ego personality" dominance, but speaks against those Thompson, Connecticut near the
limit our ability to discover "other beliefs and traditions that suppress Massachusetts border and works as
persons" within ourselves but it sub- the artistic, the sacred, the poetic, a Jungian analyst, author and lec-
jects non-human entities to inferior variety, soul and imagination. He turer. He grew up in New Jersey,
status. Hillman reverses the most ac- speaks to us as an artist. His poly- attended Georgetown University,
cepted tenets of psychiatry and psy- theistic psychological thought can be earned his Bachelors and Masters
chology: he believes that the multi- particularly useful to those in our degrees at Trinity College, Dublin,
ple rather than the single personality profession, artists, psychotherapists and his Ph.D. at the University of
is an expression of well-being and and teachers, who are uncomfort- Zurich (summa cum laude). Dr. Hill-
that the idea of a single ego op- able with a single identity. man lived in Europe for thirty-two
presses the many forms of the Every psychology is for James years and served for ten of them as
psyche; he and his patients talk to Hillman a confession, a religious ac- director of studies at the [ung Insti-
animals, stones and pictures and tivity. He discourages us from fol- tute in Zurich. He returned to the
they believe that these things talk to lowing the great psychologists in United States in 1978 to accept an
them. According to orthodox psychi- being "Freudian," "Jungian," etc. appointment as Professor of Psy-
atry, Hillman's work must be a man- Instead, he urges us to "be psycho- chology and Senior Fellow in the In-
ifestation of madness and he would logical," with the inspiration and stitute of Philosophic Studies at the
not disagree, having said that within guidance of their work. I believe that University of Dallas where he was
the context of how the psychological the same applies to his own writ- later Dean of the Graduate School.
establishment defines health, "my ings. It would be a mistake to con- Since the 1960's Dr. Hillman has reg-
books can be used to increase your sider Hillman's ideas about the ularly been a main speaker at the
sickness." He speaks of the soul, nature of images, for example, as ei- Eranos lectures in Ascona, Switzer-
rather than the unconscious; imag- ther being right or wrong, acceptable land. In 1972 he was invited to give
ination and poetics rather than tech- or unacceptable. That is precisely the the Dwight Harrington Terry lec-
nology; and so forth. He encourages type of dualistic and dogmatic re- tures at Yale University on the topic
art therapy to find its metaphors for sponse that he questions. Hillman of archetypal psychology and he has
healing within art. Hillman chal- does have immediate relevance to all also taught semesters at Syracuse
lenges the very essence of tech- art therapists if we approach his University in the Department of Re-
nological belief systems when he de- writings as one of many important ligion and at the University of Chi-
scribes "the poetic basis of mind." viewpoints on the nature of the im- cago.
In his essay on "psychological lan- age. What he can unquestionably do In 1986 Dr. Hillman was a guest
guage" Hillman expresses his dis- for our profession, whether we all professor at the Institute for the Arts
trust of psychological terminology, agree with what he says or not, is and Human 'Development at Lesley
and especially its concepts of psy- introduce an essential perspective, College where the dialogue present-
chopathology where "the language respecting the integrity of the image ed here took place, Written notes

100 ART THERAPY, November 1986

 ra ther than electronic recording interpretation can be likened to talk-
equipment were used. The text was ing about a person or an image, as
expanded afterwards through corre- "I am interested in the opposed to talking with them.
spondence.
The writings of James Hillman
fantasy of origins, why it J.H.: Much of what I write is in-
grips people." tensely polemic and against what I
have been translated into nine lan-
see an excess of. One of these ex-
guages and his books include:
cesses is an addiction to meaning.
Emotion: A Comprehensive Phenomenol- We attach ourselves to meaning and
ogy of Theories and Their Meanings grips people. You catch cold and lose the image or dream. Abstract in-
for Therapy. Evanston, Illinois: you want to know where it came terpretations take us away from the
Northwestern University Press, from: how, who, when, etc .... image. I try not to reduce big trucks
1960. causal thinking; into the past-away to power drives and little dogs to
Suicide and the Soul (1964). Dallas: from the sneezing. We are so baffled feelings. Our psychological language
Spring Publications, 1976. and perplexed by symptoms, im- is conceptual. It does not have im-
Insearch: Psychology and Religion ages, poems and dreams. The image ages. We need metaphoric inter-
(1967). Dallas: Spring Publications, can be baffling. I begin with lung's pretations, rather than symbolic
1979. idea that psyche is image. The image ones. Putting meaning onto some-
The Myth of Analysis: Three Essays in is the unmediated. It just appears. If thing is often an avoidance. Another
Archetypal Psychology (1972). NY: that is the case, the image does not avoidance is identifying your feel-
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

Harper and Row, 1978. originate elsewhere. Going to the ings with the image.
Loose Ends: Primary Papers in Arche- past for an explanation is the reduc- 1 do not say, become the truck, or
typal Psychology. NY/Zurich: tion of the image to something al- the little dog. That is the "I," the
Spring Publications, 1975. ready known. We want to place it ego, swallowing the dream. You are
Re-Visioning Psychology. NY: Harper somewhere familiar, avoid its per- not the dog, the truck. They are inde-
plexity. Traditional psychotherapy is pendent psychic events. It is impor-
and Row, 1975. Nominated for a
a system of avoidance. Jung said, tant to feel what you feel vis a vis
Pulitzer Prize.
start with what is, there, now. Do the truck and the dog; not what they
The Dream and the Underworld. NY: feel.
Harper and Row, 1979. not interrupt it.
In our culture we are historical There is also the problem of
Healing Fiction. Barrytown, NY: Sta- ownership. People will soon be
tion Hill Press, 1983. materialists. We favor the past in a
literalistic way. We are stuck with owning the Gods, by feeling what
Archetypal Psychology: A Brief Account. they feel. Very pretentious! If a fox
Dallas: Spring Publications, 1983. the efficient and immediate cause.
We have lost the formal cause (Aris- comes to you in a dream, it is not
Inter Views. NY: Harper and Row, yours, anymore than a fox that
totle and Thomas Aquinas), the way
1983. comes to you in the forest. You are
the dream or thing is put together,
Thought of the Heart (1979). Dallas: that which forms it in a certain way. one figure in the dream. What
Spring Publications, 1984. The psyche takes the residues of comes to you is not yours. The ego
Freud's Own Cookbook (with Charles yesterday and forms it today. Aristo- is not the owner.
Boer). NY: Harper and Row, 1985. tle and St. Thomas also had the final S.M.: You are suggesting that the
Anima: An Anatomy of a Personified cause, that for the sake of which drawing, the art work, is distinct
Notion. Dallas: Spring Publica- something happens. The final cause, from the person. It has a life of its
tions, 1985. the intention or purpose in each own.
event is crucial to looking at life psy- f.H.: When Plotinus said, about
chologically. the Gods, "It is for them to come to
Shaun McNiff: Do you ever think S.M.: Is there an existential terror me, not for me to go to them," he
about where images come from? or simple reluctance to look at the was probably talking against magic
James Hillman: I try to never think situations before us for what they and theurgy: attempts to make the
about origins, neither about myself are, in themselves? I feel that within Gods do things you want them to
nor about the universe. These things an art therapy context, analytic inter- do. Like Prayer. "For them to come
lead into the past and away from pretation according to a particular to me" as a visitation. Now, take
phenomena. In practice it is an es- psychological system stops the proc- this in terms of images: images,
cape from what is. I live to specu- ess of dialogue, it establishes a dis- whether in dreams, in poems, in
late, but I am appalled by the money tance between people, and between dayfantasies, or in art. If they come
that is spent on determining where the person and the phenomena. A to you, then you respond as best
the universe came from. I am inter- participant in one of my art therapy you can; you record the dream, you
ested in the fantasy of origins, why it training groups said that this kind of enter the fantasy, question it, talk

November 1986, ART THERAPY 101

 about it, and if it is a painting under ures. They are as you say "the forces want to touch it. I never stay with
your hand, you shape it as best you or powers which were once called the feeling as it is, good or bad. Put
can. All along, you could have in the Gods." the words good" and "bad" back
II

back of your mind the idea that rH.: A rule of thumb might be: on the shelf. Get images.
what comes to me may be a visitor, everything is right in the dream ex- S.M.: For example?
a "God." That was the moral of the cept for the ego. I do not question
old tale of Bauds and Philemon: J.H.: A man dreams he is flying at
the other things in a dream as much incredible speed in and around stars
they let some broken down vagrants as I question the behavior and at-
into their little house, who turned seeing wonderful lights in a vehicle
titudes of the dream ego. It is usu- piloted by James Dean. He wakes up
out to be Gods. Mercury and Apollo, ally defensive, or hysterical, or anx-
I think. This notion of the image as a happy and feeling good, he says. In
ious, or just plain dumb. By "dream another dream, he meets a girl from
visitor, a visitation-rather than ego" I mean the "1" that is walk~ng
some thing creative, created by childhood who looked down on him
around in the dream and w ith for being puny, and in this dream,
"me"-also helps account for why whom the dreamer feels identified in
it's so damned hard to make a poem in her kitchen, she says "don't go
the morning. Often what feels right away." He wakes up happy and
or a picture. If, as Jung says, a God is merely "right" because it fits the
is what crosses your path, what feeling good. Now, there are two
ego attitude. Feeling is not the only kinds of feeling good. "Good"
comes in you and is against your cue. People are awfully identified
conscious intention, the image forces doesn't say anything by itself: we
with what they feel. We are overly need to see the images that make
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

you to receive it, and even serve it reacting to the rationalism of De~­
with your hands, with your words, him feel good and these are very,
cartes, the Victorian age. PSYChIC very different "places to be." The
with your movements. value might lie where our feelings first has the puer prospects of crash-
S.M.: What do you think of ap- most rebel, where the defense is hid- ing, of being spacey, of being spir-
proaches to therapy that stress role ing. Analytic work goes against itually dazzled by "stardom." The
play, becoming the image, the fox? nature, against the naive. Rather second feeling good refers to refind-
J.H.: By becoming the fox, I lose than judge your work by the feel~ng ing and brings with it the rejected
the religiosity of the other, which you have about it, judge your feeling puny feelings of himself which are
carries something different and by the image you are having. By now accepted, even wanted, by this
moves on its own. Is it acceptable to working on images in art therapy we early love. It's pretty evident that
the fox for me to act like a fox. Isn't sophisticate the feeling. feeling good says very little while
it insulting to be imitated? Any theo- S.M.: Is this a guide to the inter- the difference between the girl and
ry of animals has to be acceptable to pretation of art? James Dean, between the high space
the animals. I don't think they rH.: Well, I'm afraid I'll get and the common kitchen, between
would vote for Descartes or St. caught in presenting an opinion and speed and cooking, between the
Thomas. You see, I will not make a taking it literally, so let's move war- power and the puniness-these say
distinction in my respect, in my re- ily. Art gives a feeling-some feel- a lot. Of course, it helps to have a
gard for the animal, between an out- ing-maybe rich and sweet, or even symbolic, archetypal, mythical back-
er gorilla in the Congo and a gorilla repulsion, or most likely upset and ground against which the images
in my fantasy or dream. I am like a bafflement. You have first to feel can be placed, which give the im-
very archaic caveman: what comes what you feel, and then disengage ages depth and cultural resonance. I
to me is the animal and I have to be from it, and look into it. The best mean knowing something about ani-
in good shape not to offend it. way to disengage from the imme- ma helps give that girl more value,
When an indigenous healer puts on diacy of the feeling is to look to the as knowing something about the
a leopard mask, the leopard is there. image. I ask what is the feeling like: puer helps you see the attraction in
He has the leopard's permission. It's describe it. That rich and sweet feel- flying, and so on.
not my ego playing a role. It is ing, makes me see a woman, swoon, S.M.: Psychotherapy training has
bringing the Gods onto the stage. or makes me think of pastry, or I historically placed more emphasis on
The God's, the animals, do the heal-
ing through the masked man. They
know what's what. Instinct is the
word we use in psychology for the
knowing of the Gods and the ani- "Rather than judge your work by the feeling you have
mals. about it, judge your feeling by the image you are hav-
S.M.: You pay less attention to the ing."
ego in a dream or artwork and more
attention to the animals, or other fig-

102 ART THERAPY, November 1986

 analysis within a tightly circum-
scribed context that reinforces the
therapist's knowledge of the particu- "I do not th~nk that the one-to-one relationship with
lar system. Your approach to the analyst IS enough. There has to be a relationship to
"knowledge" is more ambitious,
broader and expressive of the multi- the world."
plicities of culture. It is many dimen-
sional rather than one-dimensional.
Knowing is complemented by imag-
ining. This makes for a lively cooper- l.H: It's probably more like a tre- as if this were my attitude. But in ac-
ation. mendous captivating interest in tual cases this is not the way it is. In
[H: My work is the revitalization what's going on in the painting that actual cases life and imagination are
of the imagination, the ability to live you are working on. You can't leave not at all that separated. The way a
imaginatively in many ways. In re- it, you keep finding new things to person imagines his life is the way
cent years I enjoy therapy enor- touch, you're exploring and both- he lives it. We live imagination, not
mously, probably because I am not ered and preoccupied-but it isn't just life, for even "life" with its
concerned with the feeling. I have love of the painting as a thing-you problems and troubles is a specifical-
let it go. I am not busily concerned know: "I just love that one!" Now, ly organized narrative of experience,
with transference, the relationship. the other person brings the pos- a way of styling or imagining, that
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

In the past I was working at it too sibility with him or her into the con- sees and feels things in terms of
hard. I was overly concerned. Thera- sulting room, a possibility "to "problems and troubles." What I try
py is never a one-to-one rela- paint," or "to make love." You see to do with actual cases is discover
tionship. There are many more per- what I mean here? It's not the other the imagination shaping and inform-
sons in the room than the two person, it's the psyche that constel- ing the problems and troubles and
people who think that they are the lates an erotic response. But our then work them out on the level of
only ones there. I do not think that culture, our Christian culture espe- images.
the one-to-one relationship with the cially, because of its repression of Most problems and troubles have
analyst is enough. There has to be a eros and sexuality, because of its de- been worried over by the patient for
relationship to the world. What was ifying "the person," because of its years. I can't add much there. They
wrong for me before, was that my commandment to love confuses us know far more about their lives and
feeling was under a director. An- and we believe we love, or must how they cope that I can advise or
other was the attempt to do therapy love, the other person. inquire into. But what they usually
"very well." But I can't explain a It gets horrifying. Therapists be- don't have are images that can take
thing with biography. These are just come Christian Pygmalions: we not them right out of the Catch 22 situa-
stories. only fall in love with what we are tions that have them trapped.
working on, the other person, but "Should I stay with my drunken
S.M.: You certainly do reverse the believe that this love will bring the husband: should I leave and be on
most fundamental beliefs of the psy- other person to life. Meanwhile we welfare and the kids without a fa-
chotherapeutic community. You aren't making anything, no painting, ther?" Back and forth, in the stew.
have described therapy as a work of no psyche, no nothing. Just indulg- Until one day a black crow comes
love. ing feelings under the self-deception into a dream, or a painting, a talking
IR.: It is a love of the psyche; not that this is therapeutic. crow. I encourage the patient to talk
the other person. We have to be with the old crow, and that bird
S.M.: I am sure that your orienta-
very careful of locating love in the turns out to be very savvy and very
tion to "love of psyche" rather than
personal relationship. Isn't it the tough, and begins to take her (the
to "love of the other" has provoked
same with art? You love the dance, patient) under her wing. And its not
passionate criticism. It can be said
the music-not your dance partner just the figure of the crow, its the
that "you do not seem concerned
or the other person playing in the whole opening of imagination that
with the patient or client as a person
quartet. Of course, your common gets her out of her trappedness-not
in difficulties"; that you are more
engagement brings love into the per- out of the trappedness of the mar-
concerned with "art" and "imagina-
sonal field, but it starts in the love riage, but of the narrow confines of
tion" than with the person's life;
that is at the same time the work. her mind in which she has trapped
that your work "separates art from
her marriage, her mind that could
S.M.: How does this apply to a life and becomes aestheticism or
not imagine beyond that Catch 22
painting? Do you love the painting '1' art pour I'art' images for their own
puzzle. She begins to fantasize and
itself or the psyche that it emerges sake and not for the person's life."
not just worry, to speculate and not
from? IR.: You are right. It does sound just think it all through one more

November 1986, ART THERAPY 103

 time. A little bit of freedom, and a They have come out of the closet.
little less guilt. It is amazing how There is a release of the demons
people's lives loosen up when they from hell, an opening of the gates of "Because therapy is so
gain better footing in fantasy and hell. They can move into a closer re- tied into feeling profes-
how much more self-confident they lationship to the person they are as-
become. sociated with. sional and professional
S.M.: The "attempt to do therapy We are so indoctrinated to think feeling, I try to keep clear
very well" is where the profession that the repressed are unhappy. We of a model that would
reaches toward art, where the pro- cannot imagine that the images love
fessional becomes an artist working us. Let's not look at love as a feeling bind my actual feelings."
independently. but rather think about it as a repeti-
tion ... it keeps visiting us, wanting
1.H.: I enjoy being professional. to be a guest, there when we need
S.M.: What does "professional" it, entering into a conversation with
mean to you? us. We can lose our images by ignor- S.M.: How do we learn to let the
ing them. If we see the images as image speak to us?
J.H.: I enjoy my knowledge and
my skill. I enjoy the ability to form a demons, then they are things that I.H.: Abstain from declaring the
vision of what's going on, to give we do not want to lose contact with. meaning. Polytheism cannot appear
We are afraid of the image appearing until the feeling judgment of good/
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

form to what is presented, to be

right there with reactions, and to in the form of spiders. We diagnose bad, like/dislike is bracketed out.
sense the blunders as I make them, them as crazy when they can be Painting tries like crazy to break us
or soon after. I enjoy my trained friends, or at least partners, ad- from the feeling that we know what
nose for psychotherapy. I enjoy visors, coaches, etc. Spiders are it means. Then the many pos-
being baited and not getting caught beings who drop in on us; spin, and sibilities begin to appear.
... all sorts of things. I even enjoy catch noisome, buzzing distractions. There is always a list of possible
being founded on the fathers of the They are very purposive. interpretations. Multiple narratives
profession, Freud and Jung, being a Some people interrogate images. emerge from the complexity of the
member of a school. But, and there The images clam up and do not image. If we say that the meaning is
is a huge "but" here: I disassociate want to say anything about their none of these, and just describe the
myself from any professional model, personal lives, who else they might physical characteristics of the image,
or what Jungians call "persona." be seeing. Sometimes the image gets then we place it back into the genre
That is, I don't look at myself in hurt. We think that we will have of social realism, another interpreta-
terms of a model, from the outside dreams and ideas forever. One tion.
in terms of rules, or standards, or ought to be grateful to have a The first step is to withhold mean-
procedures. I don't think of myself dream. It is worth respecting, ing.
as a therapist while I'm in the act of spending time with. It is not just a The second is to realize that every
doing therapy. That keeps me from fountain. Artists are afraid of losing one of the tales reveal the poly-
literalizing what I do as "therapy." I contact. They relate to Mercurius theism of the image.
think of myself as anything but a and have more respect for the inex- Third, it is a matter of determining
professional when I am actually plicable spontaneity of the image. which is the better tale; which one
practicing my profession. Then I sticks to the image, is authentic, is
S.M.: How do we relate to the
maybe am a cook or an alchemist or the fecund way of talking about it.
polytheism of an image?
a teacher or a bullfighter or a Does the tale release other things?
schemer-undercover spy ... any- J.H.: In our culture we tend to Fecundity is important. Does it
thing. Because therapy is so tied into take voices and figures as com- spark an image in the observer? The
feeling professional and professional mands. We receive contradictory response that is as imaginative as
feeling, I try to keep clear of a model commands which do not cause the the image is an adequate response.
that would bind my actual feelings. I same kind of confusion in a poly- The longer it lasts has something to
don't know whether the patients are theistic culture. They hear things dif- do with the fecundity of the image.
happier. I don't know. ferently. Their language structures "A posteriori" judgment tries to fit
are different. For instance, other the image into the case. I am more
S.M.: You have been asked, "Are cultures are not so hung-up with the interested in the material than the
the images happier?" logic of contradiction, or on differ- case. At Yale in 1973 my wife and I
J.H.: In some situations they are. ences between past, present or fu- did interpretations of dreams in
The voices that the patients bring, ture, or between the intention or seminars without personal informa-
that they speak with, are definitely fantasy to do something and the ac- tion. The structure of the dream
in better shape. They are relieved. tual deed. then told the person who submitted

104 ART THERAPY, November 1986

 the dream anonymously a great work. When an image appears, a S.M.: How do you see the image
deal. critic appears. Puritanism begins within the context of art therapy? Do
Stories change. People tell them- with the smashing of the image, as we create images?
selves in and out of stories. Usually with Cromwell. That is not criticism.
the ego is served by the narrative. The wrong critic completely negates [H: Paintings can help us to find
Generally, a story tends to be about artistic expression, and says that we images "inside" ourselves, rather
a single figure and this is why I am should not be doing it at all. There than psychological concepts, that
cautious of narrative: it serves the has to be a ghost trap for catching can be helpful when we meet new
speaker, the ego, making him or these wrong critics. situations. Psychology and clinical
making her the hero or the victim or With the idea of the critic comes language do not use images. I try
the superior observer or the loyal the suggestion that there is an not to read a painting in terms of the
servant-but I want to know more "other" that we have to communi- artist. I see it as psyche presenting
about the other figures. "The images cate with. The image wants itself to itself in images through the hand of
speak because they want to speak" be articulated as well as possible. It the artist. Images appear before us. I
as Mary Watkins says, and not be- lays a claim on the hand to be right- do not want to say that we make im-
cause they represent some aspect of ly and deeply presented. The critic is ages. Paintings can be perceived as
the ego. They are not representa- within the image. There is some images of the psychic condition.
tives, they are ambassadors, full urge within the image to be realized. Imagination manifests itself in the
plenipotentaries with lots to say. The critic compels us to listen well. painting. I am not as interested in
the biography of the artist. Jung
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

Unfortunately, we don't have an Why are we so responsible for get-

adequate philosophical context for ting it right, as with writing down a spoke of how we must regain re-
these voices other than magic or dream correctly? Getting to the sources beyond the personal, and
madness. Our secular humanism, dream involves an aesthetic preci- that this is where healing begins.
rationalism and doctrinal religiosity sion. I am trying to get to the phe- S.M.: You are presenting art thera-
do not work for them. It only sup- nomenology of the experience. I crit- py with the task of looking at paint-
ports the solitary ego. We desper- ically evaluate whether or not the ings to find a resource of healing im-
ately need a cosmology that allows person is listening to the dream, im- ages that we can take inside us, to
the image to speak. So of course age or figure. My job is to sensitize be used instead of clinical language.
there is so much loneliness and people to what they are actually You suggest using the physical phe-
neediness because our psychology doing. nomenon rather than the conceptual
does not allow us to talk to our The hand helps us to get through abstraction.
selves, our elves. We aren't ever ac- things. A basic metaphor of the arts
l.H.: Art therapy should consider
tually alone, even if our secular cos- therapies is the hand, and this is
having a whole range of physical
mology and transcendent theology why they can do so much. The hand
metaphors for the work. For exam-
have left us there. is tremendously important for re-
ple, alchemy has boiling, cooking,
solving things. There is an animal
S.M.: Art therapy needs theory freezing, fire, etc. You need to intro-
sense to this. The hand is thinking
and methods, a cosmology, indige- duce artistic metaphors as distin-
about what it does. When I write, I
nous to art. guished from technological ones.
have to get the thought down and
Medical metaphors, such as "sutur-
through my hand in order to express
l.H.: Part of the job of the art ther- ing," "closing," "splinting," can be
it. With the animal, consciousness is
apist is to be superior. You need more useful to us than the medical
in the doing of the act.
something that can hold what you model. Metaphors from sport are
At the University of New Mexico a
are doing. You need a philosophy; a helpful in therapy ... "Go for the
number of years ago I was working
religious understanding ... not daylight; find the hole." The tacit
with Howard McConeghey in an art
techniques. But beware of the new. knowledge of the running back in
therapy seminar. We were dealing
football contrasts to the technical
S.M.: Art can be distinguished with the issue of what to do if a pa-
drawings of the television analyst.
from "creative expression" because tient was having difficulty making a
The running back is in tune with the
of the discipline involved. It may perfectly round image. A student
interference, the blocker he is run-
take years to perfect a particular ges- said that she would give the patient
ning with; it is intuitive, a body
ture. Art also involves decision mak- technical advice on how to make the
sense. Therapy is packed with situa-
ing, a critical moment, determining image round. I asked her: "Do you
tions of this kind, where people
when to stop and what needs to be trust the hand that cannot make it
dance together. We need to find
omitted. round?" Howard said: "If he cannot
metaphors for what takes place in
make it round, he does not have an
art therapy.
I.H.: I am concerned with the image of roundness." The image is
place of the critic in imaginative what the hand is capable of. S.M.: In art therapy we do use

November 1986, ART THERAPY 105

 language. It is often essential for di- than an abstract order, the world is a enced aesthetically (not conceptu-
alogue, for depth and the engage- text, or a work of art, that can be ally) either by the hand and eye in
ment of the image. read, or understood. Our aesthetic the making, or the hand and eye in
J.H.: Language is so conceptual, sense is necessary for living sensibly the appreciating, heals the opposi-
so dead in the academic world. It's in the world. We just need to pay tional tendency, the problem-mak-
not much better in the media or closer attention to it, and less to our- ing tendency.
business or science. Just think of the selves and how we feel about it. S.M.: The unity of opposites is a
robotic language of the men who S.M.: The perception of aesthetic tidy abstraction, especially when we
landed on the moon. Why send peo- sensibility as a fundamental element are perceived as progressing toward
ple into space if they talk like ma- of well-being may help art therapy integration.
chines. Language has become so stiff to see itself as a primary mode of J.H.: The evolutionary model has
and creaky and just plain dull that therapy, rather than attaching itself to do with towardness. Why is unity
many psychologists believe now that in a secondary role to the medical so important? There is not a single
wordlessness is better than speak- and behavioral science models. I philosopher in the history of the
ing. They think the grunt and the have often felt that the stronger the West who will condemn unity. The
omm take us where words cannot. I aesthetic experience is, the more Neo-Platonists suggested that unity
think just the contrary. Rhetoric is comprehensive the healing is. is a quality of any event. There are
our animal nature: speech is phy- any number of unities. There is not
logenetically built into our throats, J.H.: We all feel this, yet it is so
hard to legitimize. We all know that any over-all unity. There is a phe-
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

lips and tongue structure. We are nomenal unity.

the only species to talk: it's as much powerful aesthetic experiences are
part of our animal nature as the healing: whether in a concert hall, a S.M.: How does this apply to the
leopard's spots. We don't have tails museum, by the ocean . . . even the image?
to wave about and show off like people who decide about grants and ].H.: An image is not going any-
sleek fur. We display ourselves in allocate funds know the importance where. One of the problems of ther-
words. And people have been story- of the aesthetic in their lives, yet apy is that it is so damn goal di-
telling since the beginning, using when it comes to justifying money rected. A painting cannot go
words to evoke, to inspire, or re- spent on art, let alone art therapy, anywhere. It is what it is. Picasso
member, or just to enhance and dra- they have a terrible time. Why is said of himself: "I do not develop. I
matize, what's going on. And those this? What is wrong with our for- am." Unfortunately therapy does
descriptions are not a recounting of mulations that at once vitiate our ex- not think this way but approaches
what happened, second level and re- periences? things in terms of where they are
moved. The stories are themselves S.M.: In the popular mind the arts going. The painting can be a man-
an event, a show, that is aesthetic are perceived as recreation and en- ifestation rather than a develop-
right from the start. It's essential not tertainment. They have been dis- ment. In the language of the psycho-
to abandon language. Let's treasure associated from their historic philo- therapeutic genre, people come to
it. Psyche needs logos; it needs psy- sophical functions. Can you give an therapy in January and want to get
chology. The soul enjoys words and example of an aesthetic experience to summer.
ideas. in therapy as contrasted to an ana- S.M.: James Joyce spoke of art
S.M.: You have worked for many lytic one? works as "epiphanies," manifesta-
years in the Jungian tradition. Do ].H.: In Korean ceramics, there is tions that reveal the divine.
the conceptual abstractions of no question of symmetry or asym- ].H.: Is there any relationship be-
Jungian psychology get in the way metry. No "opposites." There is a tween the different works, the epi-
of the image speaking for itself? bowl or a jar. That bowl or jar can be phanies? Is there a development, a
J.H.: If the word evokes only doc- classified as asymmetrical: it tilts, it Darwinian evolution? We are caught
trine, then it is not useful. The con- has more thickness on one side, or a in the narrative of development. An-
cept gets in the way of the image. crack. But to think of asymmetry, other model would be a chain of epi-
My own intellectualism can hurt the immediately raises "symmetry" in phanies, separate events, strung on
presentation of the image and dis- the mind: that is, the mind walks a necklace, maybe interchangeable
tance me from it. What is being sug- away from what is here, the jar, into beads for other necklaces.
gested here is the inherent intel- a pair of opposites: symmetry/asym-
ligence in the image. To talk about the metry. Immediately we have moved S.M.: Are developmental psychol-
world in terms of the imagination im- from the image to a concept. Now, ogies, and humanistic approaches to
plies that everything has intelligence and the making of this bowl or jar, as "becoming a person," future ori-
does not require the imposition of struc- such, "overcomes" the mental proc- ented distractions from "being"?
ture by a meaning giving mind. Rather ess of self-division. The bowl experi- ].H.: I go with a "via negativa"

106 ART THERAPY, November 1986

 which for me means not letting the ].H.: Yes. That's exactly right! ceiving "the plumed serpent" as a
mind get ahead of itself. We get in Through art therapy, we meet disor- manifestation of divinity.
the way of the animal by preknow- ders of imagination with imagina- J.H.: We have prejudiced animals
ing things. Western philosophy al- tion. Other therapies use foreign by referring to them as "brutal" and
ways gives the animal a low place. systems. But still ideas belong. Ideas "beastial." It is the Cartesian du-
The restoration of the animal in our are vitally important. Rather than re- alism that has turned peaceful
psyche is primary and for that rea- jecting ideas, can we envision an beings into brutes, pigs, bitches, liz-
son alone. The contemporary animal imagining intellect? Intellect is one of ards, monkeys, apes ... derogatory
rights movement is significant. the places of the spirit. It is an art, a things. In dreams animals can ap-
There is something revolutionary in theatre. Intellect can dance too. pear as saviours, as teachers. The
restoring animal consciousness. We main problem is the dreamer's fear
S.M.: With others?
have the black movement, the wom- of the animal. The dream, or the im-
en's movement and now the animal J.H.: We tend to be herd animals. age, is to be connected to an animal
movement. We are socialized. Suffering on the rather than be interpreted. If you call
The most important dreams for animal level is caused by separation the cow in a patient's painting,
me are those with animals. I am not from the herd. Let's bring the pa- "your mother," then you lose it.
as interested in parents as in ani- thology into the fantasy of the ani- You insult both the cow and the
mals. I go after the animal. The ani- mal. Human communities have peri- mother. It may be a hurt cow, or a
mal knows what it wants; it has a ods when the person is separated for nasty cow with horns. It is impor-
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

nose, modes of protection; it is eco- the purpose of initiation, but the iso- tant to keep using the word cow.
logically in the world . . . the ego in lation is still within a context. The Where is your cow? Is it a hurt cow?
the form of Hercules slays the ani- patient needs a context, or ritual, People get upset when an animal
mal. "Ego" is the classic mechanism within the community for the psy- is dying in a dream. A small bird is
of defense. chosis rather than being opposed to dying. Rather than referring to the
Before getting involved with con- the community. Jung does us dam- bird as your dying spirit, you can
cepts of ego, consciousness, specific age in separating the individual from say that this little bird is in dire
pathologies, etc., I want to know the collective, in romanticizing the straits, and has come into your
what the person is doing. In therapy individual. dream. Now what?
I look for a figure to talk to, an ani- S.M.: In our language we use ani- We can learn from fairy tales. The
mal, a rock, an image that the per- mal and herd metaphors dis- person who gets through, is the one
son can relate to. It might be useful paragingly. Pathologogy is con- who speaks to the animals, as op-
to make a circle to sit in, or a person ceived in terms of animals-eating posed to those who ignore the ani-
can go to a stone and sit there with like a hog, bull headed, stubborn as mal or see it as inferior. We have to
his or her back to it ... or a tree. a mule .... "Dog, pig, rat, snake, work our way through the brutal as-
We are trying to find ritualized acts. beast!" The American College Dic- pect of our reactions to animals, and
Breathing is another way. There are tionary defines animal as "an inhu- not project the brutality onto them.
ways to get out of crazy states. A man person; brutish or beastlike per- What you do to the animal, it does
person that I worked with got out by son . . . pertaining to the physical or to you.
just breathing. These modes offer carnal nature of man, rather than his There is a specificity about ani-
imaginal containers. Belief in the spiritual or intellectual nature." You mals. It is very different when an ea-
larger strength, the more important reverse these values and emphasize gle comes to you in a dream than
value of an animal, stone, or tree is the virtues of animals. Humans have when a pig comes. Wherever Islam
what matters. This is animism. a tendency to elevate themselves at went in the 7th and 8th centuries,
S.M.: You bring mind back to the the expense of animals. Our fears of the pigs got it. They were killed as
physical world. sensuousness and of our animal unclean. Pigs have been our com-
nature are revealed in how we form panions for thousands of years, yet
].H.: I do not try to define con- the image of the devil with animal even Christ cast demons into swine.
sciousness. I would never try. I at- and serpentine features. D. H. Law- They are so rejected! When we talk
tempt to find the metaphor that is rence does the reverse too in per- about animals generically in terms of
being used to define consciousness.
S.M.: The arts engage the soul,
and its conflicts, directly, through
the language of the soul, rather than "Through art therapy, we meet disorders of imagination
always feeling the need to translate with imagination. II
the image into psychological con-
cepts for analysis.

November 1986, ART THERAPY 107

 "instinct," this simply groups them therapy, the numinosity, respect,
all together. The Irish saint is the fear, the eternal. The American Indi-
one who can talk to the animals. ans believed that the buffalo disap- "Therapy is caught in the
Sainthood involves living in connec- peared in the fall and came up literary genre of social re-
tion with the animals, and knowing through the earth in the spring, the
the language of each kind. same buffalo, eternal. alism . . . not the genre of
S.M.: And appreciating their dif- S.M.: How do you relate to the
lyric or epic. "
ferences? killing of animals?
].H.: Different birds have different ].H.: In a dream the pet dog may
meanings in dreams and imagery. It have to be put away because the munity with Rank coming in from
is important to distinguish the birds sweet, domesticated spirit has to go. high school, Freud analyzing his
from one another. Even 100 years The butcher is an important figure in daughter ... what a marvelous,
ago people sat for hours in carts, dreams because he knows the art of crazy bunch! Our minds have be-
reins in their hands, staring at the dismembering the animal. Slaying come technological. "Figure" has be-
moving butts of horses. They lived can be getting to the essence, pen- come number rather than shape. "It
the life and smell of horses. Animals etrating, not running from it. doesn't figure." The technological
were close to daily life. People knew With the butcher, the dismember- approach assumes that things can be
how to live with them. We can read ing is to get through the sentimen- "figured out" and "fixed."
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

our cats and dogs, but do you real- tality of the animal. Some of the old Therapy is caught in the literary
ize how they can read us? This has sentimentality says never hurt an genre of social realism ... not the
to do with external animals, but animal. This relates to Dionysian genre of lyric or epic. Life work is
probably our internal animals are mythology and his being torn apart, perceived as struggle and dense.
watching us, and watching over us, and dismembered by the maenades, Therapeutic work is directed at those
too. and then put back together again. It who are oppressed. It is a depressive
As we get farther away from the is not merely hurtful and ugly-like genre. The concept of social realism
animals in daily life, it worries me. Yankees feel at the bullfight who is closely associated with depres-
What good is it to be in the ecology turn away their eyes. It is an open- sion, working with "hard reality."
movement and still beat the animal ing. It is a ritual, and a different But social realism is a genre, a form
in your dreams. Animals have a nat- motif than talking with the animal or of art. When social realism is com-
ural piety; they don't get out of flying with the animal. The butcher bined with developmentalism and
hand. The human being is not first knows how not to damage the soul the notion that everybody is sup-
in all cultures. With the bushman we of the animal. It is hard for us to posed to grow, it is exhausting. The
are ranked fourth. find the right way to deal with the model produces burn-out. We might
animal because it is either so worth- consider other models to work in, a
S.M.: You are resurrecting an ab-
less or sentimentalized within our totally different context.
original respect for all forms of life.
society.
I.H.: If a bug appears in a dream, If an animal comes to an American S.M.: It is difficult for art thera-
we stamp our feet on it. We want to Indian during a dream, it might be pists to go all the way with the artis-
immediately get the insecticide. the beginning of a vision quest. If a tic metaphor, to stand alone with it.
Going "bugs" is going crazy. The particular animal comes to us, we There is a fear of losing something,
pesticide industry is psychologically need to spend a great deal of time the relationship to the mainstream of
based. In California they realized thinking about it and looking at it. the mental health tradition.
that the total cost of pesticides and We might study its natural history 1.H.: 0 my goodness! "The main-
herbicides is greater per year than and the distinctive features of its stream of the mental health tradi-
the loss of the crops would be if left way of being. Why does the animal tion." Pardon me, but that sounds
untreated. If the Carlos Castenada come to you? What does it want like the KGB! What mainstream?
series were about bugs and worms from you? You mean case management and
instead of eagles, I might like it. workups and files and supervision
S.M.: This animism and your re-
People who have never been with tricks . . . I am being nasty because I
spect for art as a primary therapeutic
animals still have intense animal fa- don't believe that there can be a
metaphor are in sharp contrast to
miliars. They do establish a living mainstream unless there is a spring,
the technological values of contem-
connection with them. I even think a deep source-and now I am con-
porary mental health systems?
it is necessary to go look at animals. tradicting myself regarding "ori-
Ask your patient to take a day in the I.H.: The early psychoanalytic gins." But rivers rise from a deep
aquarium or zoo. The sacred quality community was totally u n- clear riverhead: and what is the
of animals is what I try to get at in technological. It was an artistic com- riverhead of the mainstream in men-

108 ART THERAPY, November 1986

 tal health? It's not Freud, or Jung or in being useful within a context of ar- the psyche will be working. I em-
even Alfred Adler, or William tistic liberation. phasize the importance of destruc-
James-it's something vapid as "the I.H.: To do something very well, tion, and hatred. They are the acids
ethics of good works" or simply bu- with dedication---even if one has no that motivate. Certain art therapists
reaucracy, "agency," KGB, keeping great talent, is artisanship. Its like may be obsessed with the notion
people in line, getting them back to making things for the village that are that we are all creative. Creativity
work, and so on. The mainstream useful: pots, woodwork, weavings. becomes a one-sided model, having
works for the government. I see This can be intensely communal, be- lost its shadow of destruction, and
therapy as subversive: it is intensely cause these are functional objects becomes a dangerous word. There is
anarchic and intensely communal: both; serving communal needs. At the an inflation of creativity today. Peo-
but it is not mainstream in that col- same time, the intensity of ex- ple do not read poetry, they just
lective sense that I am insulted by: pression, the personal shape given write it. Our notion of creativity dis-
paperwork, tinkering, disguised by the hands, the "individuality" of penses with learning. Creativity has
churchiness. the piece as a formed image is in- become a shibboleth to art therapists
S.M.: And drugs! The mainstream tensely anarchic: it isn't intended to and an awful, impossible burden is
has swallowed the revolutionary ori- conform to anything but to itself, placed on people "to be creative."
gins. The most influential teachers in fully. That last is very important: be- Belief in the endless flow of creativi-
history have been those who have cause if you lose the individuality- ty is problematic. We need more
most radically reversed what we side of the dilemma, your focus is than just expression; we need to
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

take most for granted, that help us not on the thing and the hands and give form. The classic alchemical for-
to see that what we value the most the image (while working) but on a mula is "dissolve and coagulate." In
may in fact be limiting us. The crea- societal product. Only indirectly is addition to flow there must also be
tion of a different context for the what one makes a societal product. coagulation.
practice of therapy, an artistic con- Of course, all along the struggle S.M.: Can you describe how the
text perhaps, is not easy for the art with invisible community values, the artist or the art therapist might en-
therapist. You are referring to a polit- battle against collective stupidities, is gage destruction?
ical aspect of art therapy. The art going on in the shaping of the prod-
therapist in a hospital setting, or uct. It's the old problem of how to J.H.: Your question is really a very
working with children in a school or keep the moral and social aspect of good one. Or should I say bad
in an agency will not prosper by art from taking over, and yet not los- one.... Let me first make clear that
going against the system. We have ing it altogether in l'art pour l'art. to engage in the patient's destruc-
worked very hard to make favorable When I write something, for in- tion is not to release the devil, or
impressions. stance, I am intensely communal, abreact the emotion. Get it out, get it
out to break up cliches, trying to get down on paper in big red blotches,
J.H.: This is an important ques- or dig your nails into the clay. We
tion. I don't believe much attention my ideas readable, wanting them to
have effect on therapists and be are not in the business of exorcism.
has been paid to the politics of art Devils are resources, and very diffi-
therapy-except for the politics of helpful to souls in their messes.
But-and this "but" is crucial-I cult to distinguish from angels, who
therapy in general (Laing and once had beating animal-wings and
Cooper or the Marxists and the femi- never write directly in that direction:
my main concern as I write is the were fiery and huge. So, if you are
nists). working with destruction you are in-
careful formation of the work itself
S.M.: Minority and cultural groups. and this tends again and again to be terested in it and not trying to get rid
intensely anarchic (individualized), of it. Second, you are not even try-
J.H.: I see an inherent conflict be- ing to improve it so it is less destruc-
tween artistry and art therapy. They forgetting the actual community. I
am often at the point of not caring at tive. Rather, you may be trying to
require different politics. Let's take get its expression more formed,
Blake as the model for artistry: he all if it is ever read by anyone.
more verbal or dimensional, less
was a nut working alone, almost S.M.: You caution against evan- hulky say, and more articulated,
antisocial. The Romantic Artist. Art gelical attitudes toward creativity. where articulated means both more
therapy, however, is paid for by in- verbalized and more jointed and
J.H.: Archetypal theory helps us to
surance companies, state funds, tax- understand that there is always an- connected and differentiated. Then
payers finally. Of course, its aims other side of the coin. When you are third, you have to have some joy in
will bend toward conformism, con- being positive always keep in mind your own destructiveness: I think
servatism. How does the individual Swift must have loved writing his
that there is the negative some-
art therapist work through this di- where. When the negative feeling is hatred into stories and essays. Or
lemma? repressed it will appear. Wherever Bosch and Goya. Therapists are
S.M.: Art therapists are interested you find disturbance, that is where often goody-goodies, or do-gooders,

November 1986, ART THERAPY 109

 it's a projection of the person: it's a
"pro-jection," a throwing forward
and outward of the impersonal ele-
ments that make up personality. The
maker's soul is in the work, thrown
out there (projected) into visibility.
But what this soul is, that can't be
defined with the usual notion of per-
son that psychology employs. Too
limited. Soul has historical and cul-
tural and archaic levels that are most
un-biographical and impersonal.
S.M.: At the beginning of this di-
alogue, you mentioned that each
teaching situation, or engagement, is
an opportunity to learn something
new. Has this discussion of your
Dr. Howard McConeghey (left) and Dr. James Hillman work in relation to art therapy been
of use?
Downloaded by [Carnegie Mellon University] at 17:01 12 January 2015

and awfully ashamed of their hatred uses, which overvalues the "person" I.H.: I learned how quick I shoot
for the patient, or the hatred and an- and undervalues the "art." Certainly off at the mouth! You know ques-
ger that the patient evokes in them. tribal art and medieval art were not tions like this bring out my opinions.
What do you hate? What precisely? projection of the person. No artists, I leap for the bait. An old fish like
Picture it yourself, and get into it but plenty of art. I think this view is me ought to be more wily. I also
with the patient: maybe both of you the ego-artist view; just not interest- learned that I have tremendous sym-
together can work on this hateful ing and it leads to all the psycho-bi- pathy for the plight of art therapists
quality. ography stuff, of dirty-minded gos- . . . they could really be the carriers
sip about people and explaining of imagination into the culture at the
S.M.: Is there any truth to art
their writings or paintings in terms grassroots level. They have access
being a projection of the person?
of their impotency, or mistresses, or that artists themselves don't have,
J.H.: Sure there is, though I prefer drinking, or their poor old mothers. and that psychologists have wasted.
not to see art that way. I think it's But-if you were to imagine "per- I really do want to encourage them
this view of art that art therapy most son" differently, then I'd say, yes, with all my heart.

WRIGHT
srATE
Wright State University
Dayton, Ohio 45435

Master of ArtTherapy
• academicstudy • electiveoptions
• clinical practicum • arts involvement
• mediaexperience • programapprovedby AATA

For additionalinformation: Gary C. Barlow, Ed.D., ATR

Coordinator, Art Therapy
228 Creative Arts center
Phone513/873-2758 or 2759

110 ART THERAPY, November 1986