On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship PDF

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Issue 19 / June 2013 Notes on Curating, freely distributed, non-commercial
On Artistic
and Curatorial
Authorship
With Contributions by
Fucking Good Art
Ute Meta Bauer
Tania Bruguera
Raqs Media Collective
Yvonne P. Doderer
Valerie Smith
Kristina Lee Podesva
Dorothee Richter
Marc James Léger
Marion Von Osten
Mary Jane Jacob
Gavin Wade
.
Artur Zmijewski
On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Contents
04 64
Editorial Gavin Wade
Michael Birchall interviewed by Michael Birchall
and Nkule Mabaso
06
Foreword 70
Winfried Stürzl Fucking Good Art
interviewed by Sheena Greene
14
Homo Academicus Curatorius: 75
Millet Matrix as Intercultural Paradigm Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne Doderer
Marc James Léger interviewed by Annemarie Brand
and Monika Molnár
23 .
Artur Zmijewski 81
interviewed by Anne Koskiluoma Tania Bruguera
and Anna Krystyna Trzaska interviewed by Ahraf Osman
and Daniela N. Fuentes
8
Kristina Lee Podesva 89
interviewed by Sophia Ribeiro Marion von Osten
interviewed by Charlotte Barnes
33
Mary Jane Jacob 96
interviewed by Monika Molnár Imprint
and Tanja Trampe
39
Raqs Media Collective
interviewed by Chloé Nicolet-dit-Félix
and Gülru Vardar
43
Artists and Curators as Authors – Compe-
titors, Collaborators, or Team workers?
by Dorothee Richter
58
Valerie Smith
interviewed by John Canciani and Jacqueline Falk
3 Issue 19 / June 2013

Editorial On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Editorial
Michael Birchall
This issue of ONCURATING.org brings together a range of interviews and
essays, inspired by the symposium, “Why Artists Curate”, held by the Kunstbüro
der Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg in cooperation with Columbus Art Founda-
tion in July 2011. The feedback from this conference prompted a discussion on
authorship in contemporary art, from artists, curators and artist-curators.
Walter Benjamin’s well known essay, The Author as Producer outlines that
artists became producers when they shifted their labour from an independent
creator relent on conventional artistic apparatus, to an operative, in which the skills
and accomplishments of the artists are transformed by the advanced technical
content of new reproductive technologies’ place in art1. This represents the very
re-functioning of the relations of artistic production in the interest of the new
definition of the artist. Therefore the artist is not bound by a closed relationship
with material, or their own encounters with the world in the conventions of artistic
tradition.
The role of the curator as a scholar and keeper of a collection has all but
faded away. The contemporary art curator is no longer an expert on a particular
period, instead the curator is an anthropologist, a reporter, a sociologist, an episte-
mologist, an author, an NGO representative or an observer of the internet 2. The
figure of the globe-trotting independent curator appears to be most associated
with contemporary art; this transitory figure is always searching for an opportunity
for an exhibition or publication. The curator shares his or her labour with that of
the contemporary artist. Both practitioners are reliant on the art market, engage in
precarious work, maintain a connection with the international scene and their
income is dependant on their intellectual and networking ability. These positions
are questioned in this issue; how do they relate to new working paradigms and
existing power relations in contemporary art.
Since the 1990s the rise of the curator has sparked debates on the level of
authorship curators can attribute to a work of art. As John Roberts writes, “the
artist becomes a curator and the curator becomes an artist not in order to advance
to democratization of the social form of art, but as a democratization of the cir-
cumscribed professional relations between artists and those who seek to profes-
sionally represent it.3” Not only is this about a “democratisation” of professional
relations but also a merging of roles, artists may take on some of the roles and
functions of the curator in order to produce artworks. In turn, curators may exer-
cise their curatorial or authorial voice by assembling a set of practices and ideas
together to formulate an exhibition or project.
This collection of interviews formulates a .discussion on authorship in con-

temporary arts production and curation. Artur Zmijewski discusses his curation of
the 7th Berlin Biennial, Forget Fear (2012), which set out to investigate the role of art

Editorial On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
and its effectiveness within contemporary politics. Zmijewski reflects on the con-
troversy associated with the biennial, as well as deciding to including his own work
in the exhibition, Berek (1999). Raqs Media Collective, discuss joint-authorship and
working across disciplines as both artists and curators. With particular emphasis on
their latest project, Sarai: a program initiated in 2000, as part of the Centre for the
Study of Developing Societies in Delhi, India. They present a range of models for
successful collaboration with participants and how authorship can be shared.
Marion von Osten reflects on her practice as both an artist and as a curator,
and what can be learned from both practices; defining herself as an “initiator-cura-
tor”. After working with several influential German curators, such as Kathrin
Rhomberg and Beatrice von Bismarck; von Osten reflects on the process of collab-
oration and the question of “equal” authorship. Artist-curator Gavin Wade dis-
cusses his approach to curating and art making and how the two disciplines can
intersect with one another. Wade discusses his 5 Acts of Art4 where he proposes
that art is exhibition, that art is not exhibited but that art exhibits, that exhibition is
a fundamental function of being human, and the fundamental process of art. The
collective Fucking Good Art discuss their collaborative approach to art making and
how their practice intersects with curating and research. Their recent publication,
Italian Conversations: Art in the age of Berlusconi (2011) offers a glimpse into Italy’s
contemporary art scene and pays tribute to a tradition of artists publications that
emerged during the 1970s.
Curator, Valerie Smith discusses her approach to curating Sonsbeek 93

(1993), and how her process of engagement was influenced by other models at the
time. Smith discusses her role as a producer – in constant dialogue with artists – to
create an entire concept with complete authorial control. The curator Mary Jane
Jacob engages in a discussion about authorship, curatorial practice and the history
and future of public art. Jacob considers her role in the site-specific exhibition
Culture in Action (1995) and her development of community-based projects. Both
Jacob and Smith paved the way for socially engaged art work, their exhibitions in
the 1990s framed the discussion of art’s renewed interest in the social during this
period5. Kristina Lee Podesva reflects on authorships’ possible disappearance in
the art-pedagogical field, by looking specifically at her colourschool (2006/7) project
within her artistic and curatorial practice; in relation to historical, societal, political,
economical and cultural contexts.
Long-standing collaborators, Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne P. Doderer engage

in a dialogue about audience – specifically how the public sees the outcome before
the curator or artist – and what it means to work as a women in the global, (often)
male dominated art world. The artist and initiator of the Immigrant Movement
International, Tania Bruguera, reflects on her work with immigrants and how her
work is viewed in the contemporary art world. As an advocate of political work,
Bruguera talks frankly about some of her early work and contribution to Cuba’s art
Notes
education, by founding Arte de Conducta (2002-2009) and her responsible approach 1 Benjamin, W. (1934) ‘The Author
to art making. As Producer’, New Left Review I, no. 82,
1970.
2 Bude, H. “The curator as
Finally, Marc James Léger’s essay, ‘Homo Academicus Curatorius: Millet Matrix’ meta-artist: the case of HUO” in Texte
as Intercultural Paradigm, considers the curator-as-analyst by examining the collabo- zur Kunst, June 2012, pg. 114.
3 Roberts, J. The Intangibilities of Form:
rative exchanges between two Montreal-based artists: Rosika Desnoyers and David Skill and Deskilling in Art After the
Tomas. Dorothee Richter’s essay, Artists and Curators as Authors – Competitors, Readymade, pg. 184
Collaborators, or Team workers? discusses artistic and curatorial authorship , from a 4 To be published in the forthcoming,
Gavin Wade, UPCYCLE THIS BOOK,
historical position, in the context of Harald Szeemann’s curatorship of Documenta 5; 2013, Sternberg.
as well as using the case studies of Fluxus and the Curating Degree Zero Archive. 5 Bishop, C. Artificial Hells, pg. 217

Foreword On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Between Hype and Attitude.

Motivations, Presentation
Strategies and Fields of
Conflict for “Curartists”
Winfried Stürzl
Winfried Stürzl looks back at the symposium, “Why
Artists Curate” held by the Kunstbüro der Kunststiftung
Baden-Württemberg in cooperation with Columbus
Art Foundation, 8/9 July, 2011
Two years ago an article in the magazine “Monopol”, referring to an exhibi-

tion curated by Adam McEwen in the Palais de Tokyo, Paris, was headed “The
Trend towards the Curartist”. The subheading added, in somewhat sensational vein:
“Why artists make better curators”.1 Precisely because the article was restricted to
a list of some famous names, failing to provide the answer it heralded, the reader’s
attention was drawn to two things: first, that artists have indeed been appearing
increasingly as curators since the 1990s at the latest, and the media take pleasure in
reacting to this (as re-confirmed by the last Berlin Biennale in 2012 with Artur
mijewski). Second, that there are reasons for this development, but they cannot be
summarised as easily as the popular journal would have us believe.
The publication of the article came during preparation for a symposium by

the Kunstbüro der Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg on this very subject.
Ramona Wegenast (the director of the Kunstbüro) and I had decided to realise this
symposium as it seemed important to us to take up such an omnipresent phenom-
enon as the artist-curator in the context of the Kunstbüro’s offering to improve
artists’ professionalism.2 After all, in the south-west of Germany, the Kunststiftung
Baden-Württemberg’s sphere of influence, more and more artists were becoming
active simultaneously as curators. Among other things, this was expressed towards
the end of the century’s first decade by the foundation of a large number of project
spaces or off-spaces.3 In this context we had noted that these foundations had seen
the devlopment of differently accentuated cooperations between artists but also
between artists and art theorists4 – not always entirely without conflict, as can be
seen from the sensitivities voiced here, in particular with reference to the problem
of authorship.

In order to react to this diversity, we decided to invite artist-curators who

work in very different models of cooperation together for the symposium. Besides
performance artist Byung Chul Kim (Stuttgart), who intervened into the running of
the symposium, our initial guests were artist, curator and critic Andreas Schlaegel
(Berlin) as well as artists Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber (both Berlin), who – as a
duo – had also been curators of the exhibition “Captain Pamphile” in the Falcken-
berg Collection in Hamburg shortly before. Andreas Baur (Esslingen) gave insights
into his cooperation with curating artists in his function as director of Villa Merkel.
And artist Tilo Schulz (Berlin) reported in conjunction with Jörg van den Berg
(Ravensburg) on the possibilities for cooperation between artist and exhibition-
maker. Dorothee Richter (Zurich) provided an introduction to the symposium,
examining questions of artistic and curatorial authorship on the basis of historical
examples. The symposium took place in the still existent Kunsthalle Ravensburg of
the Columbus Art Foundation5 on 8th and 9th July, 2011 – an ideal cooperative
partner and event venue thanks to its director Jörg van den Berg.
We knew that the phenomenon of the curartist had long been giving occa-
sion for reflection against the background of a general rise of the curator figure in
the art system. In in the report by the German Association of Artists, for example,
the subject was examined from a wide range of perspectives in the 2003/2004
issue.6 Power relations and the distribution of roles in the art system were the focus
there, as well as questions of whether artists as curators could make a different
contribution to “traditional” exhibition-makers or whether curators were perhaps
making use of artistic strategies in their work that had led to their rise in the first
place.
The art system has changed in recent years. The profession of the curator
has become so popular meanwhile that in the German weekly newspaper “DIE
ZEIT” shortly before our symposium one could read under the ironic title “Die
Macht der Geschmacksverstärker” (The Power of the Taste Enhancer) that the
curator had taken over from the artist, poet or director as the “dream job of the
youthful avant-garde”.7 This hype, as we all know, has been followed by not only a
popularisation but also an increasing professionalising of the work, so that now
study courses in “Curating” are offered at many colleges and universities all over
the world; there are also a large number of important curator’s awards or residency
programmes. And last but not least, “curating” has also been long established as a
fixed concept outside the narrower field of art.
Against the backdrop of these changes, today questions are being posed
once more about the ambivalent relationship between artist and curator – and thus
about the curartist’s understanding of self, as well. The June 2012 issue of the
magazine “Texte zur Kunst”8, for example, was entitled “The Curators” and devo-
ted to the topic of the relationship between artist and curator in detail. In this
context it appears very informative that in many contributions and in many diffe-
rent ways, a plea is made to shift attention from the person of the curator to the
activity of curating (Beatrice von Bismarck), to the “curatorial” field (according to
Maria Lind, the field of “moving boundaries” as opposed to the more technical-
organisatorial role of “curating”9), or to forms of collaboration or collective coope-
ration (Oliver Marchart). In his statement on the phenomenon of the artist-curator
against the background of debates on authorship, Dieter Roelstraete even suggests
dropping “categories specific to the art world such as artist and curator” comple-
tely – in favour of “the art worker”.

Ideas were mooted in the presentations and discussions of the symposium in

Ravensburg that took up the current discourse as well as some fundamental questi-
ons. As suggested by the title of the symposium – “Why Artists Curate” – they
included in particular consideration of the (individual) motivations behind artists’
inclinations to work on a curatorial basis at all. In addition, as a direct result of the
speaker-structure, a strong argument was put from the vantage point of artistic-
curatorial practice.
1 2
3 4
Captions
“Ruthless Openness” (Andreas Schlaegel) 1 Participatory performance by
Christina Schmid in the performance
Andreas Schlaegel cited three possible motivations in his (self-)discussion and bus. © Daniela Wolf
– as he called it – plea for “ruthless openness”: “Why do artists create exhibitions? 2 Presentation by Dorothee Richter
© Daniela Wolf
First for the girls, second for the show, and third for the money – that’s rock and 3 Presentation by Andreas Schlaegel
roll”, according to his provocative theory (based on a song by Lüde und die Ast- © Daniela Wolf
ros).10 He referred to the concept of “curating” as “almost devalued”, as our “culture 4 Presentation by Andreas Baur
© Daniela Wolf
of permanent showing and equally rapid forgetting (with constant virtual availabi-
lity on demand)” makes the curator’s profession and his original task – that of
collecting and preserving – largely obsolete. Due to a declining willingness to subsi-
dise culture on the part of the state and the pressure for “corporate/private” part-
nerships with museums, the picture he drew of contemporary art was that of a
“battle field through which cultural terrain may be occupied and instrumentalized.”
He suggested that this development in the art system forced curators into free-
lance activity, where they had no more to lose in principle – since they had no
building or budget anyway.
Andreas Schlaegel felt it was logical that in such an environment artists are
being called into action. After all, for them it was legitimate per definitionem to act in
a subjective manner: the severity of an exhibition by an artist-curator could always
be attributed to his/her artistic creative production and thus granted legitimacy as

an extension of his or her work. And so ultimately, Andreas Schlaegel sees the basis
for the growing importance of the artist-curator in the need for self-presentation
as it encounters the imperialistic effects of our neo-liberal economic system. In
connection with the media’s increasing fixation on the artist-curator, however, he
also pointed out a latent danger of falling for the out-of-date myth of the “artist
genius”.
“Competition, Collaboration or Teamwork?” (Dorothee Richter)

This worry, however, could definitely apply to today’s freelance curators as
well – though Andreas Schlaegel avoided further detail in this respect. After all, star
curators like Hans-Ulrich Obrist, it has been possible to note for some time, experi-
ence an exaggeration in their perception and reporting as quasi-geniuses equivalent
to many an artist. This close connection led Dorothee Richter in her opening talk to
tie the phenomenon of the rising artist-curator into the historical development of
the complex relationship between artist and curator. Starting out from Haralds
Szeemann’s self-staging in the course of “documenta 5”, under the heading “Artistic
and Curatorial Authorship – Competition, Collaboration or Teamwork?” she dis-
cussed the ways in which curators adapt “the various procedures of artistic self-
organisation” and the ultimate consequences of this. As Richter demonstrates,
there is also a gender aspect inherent in the established power relations. Her com-
ments led to a question that became characteristic of discussions during the sym-
posium: Are artists and curators competitors or collaborators “in a field where
attributions are becoming uncertain but also mobile and negotiable as a result?”
“Why I became a performance-curator” (Byung Chul Kim)

The framework to the symposium took up these questions in the form of
performative interventions thanks to the artistic and curatorial efforts of Byung
Chul Kim. In 2009 the Korean artist living in Stuttgart already caused a sensation
beyond the region with his “Performance-Hotel”: there was no need to pay money
for a night’s stay if you presented a performance.11 The same applied to the “Per-
formance-Express” that Kim initiated from Saarbrücken to the Centre Pompidou in
Metz (2010)12, on which the subsequent concept for a Performance-Bus from
Stuttgart to Ravensburg was based. In these two cases, the service provided – the
journey in each case – coud also be paid for with a performance.
In respect to the symposium, part of the performance took place in the bus,
another during the event at Columbus Art Foundation. Byung Chul Kim structured
the pattern of the contributions so as to make it seem that the work was left
entirely to the artists while the “power of organisation” was restricted to the cura-
tor alone (alias Byung Chul Kim). Resting on the laurels of the artistic contributions,
he ended his appearance with the words: “Now you know why I became a perfor-
mance-curator.” This was a remark that not only thematized, with a sidelong wink,
the problem of power relations in the artist-curator relationship but also put it up
for re-disposition with exaggerated irony.
A second performance, which Byung Chul Kim realised under the title “Inter-
mezzo” together with Andreas Baur, director of the Galeries of the City of Esslin-
gen (Villa Merkel), later approached the topics at issue from a completely different
perspective. Both jacked up their racing bikes and went cycling together (as they do
occasionally in “real life”), bit by bit, going to the limits of their strength, whereby
verbal references between the top echelons of sport and the art business were
generated: “Art is endurance / assertiveness / a battle with oneself / you need

targets / self-doubts / there are also rankings – top-class artists, first in the ran-
kings” etc. At the same time, terms were used such as “teamwork” or “system of
shared interests”, which culminated in the statement that the “curatorial situation”
could also consist in mutual accompaniment – even “in an exchange of roles, that
is, the artist becoming a curator and the curator an artist.”
“Specific Inner Viewpoints” (Andreas Baur)

In his subsequent contribution “A Gift of Iconological Comparisons –
Wrapped in the Mantle of Institutions” Andreas Baur made it clear that such an
exchange of roles could only take place to a limited extent, however, in an institu-
tion like the Galeries of the City of Esslingen – and from his point of view: when
artists curate, the result is often “not compatible with the masses”.13 “Recourse to
intensive, subjective experiences in the field of artistic practice,” according to the
trained artist and art historian, could “not be shared, basically” with a wider audi-
ence: “The limit of exclusion” lies “simply in the depth of the experience, activity
and reflection on it.” However, as Baur made clear using examples from his practice
as a curator, it is certainly possible to place parts of an exhibition in the hands of an
artist. In this way, for example, it may be possible to highlight colleagues of the
artist-curator or to offer “specific inner viewpoints”, upon which he would not have
focused as the director of an institution. The exhibition “5000 Jahre Moderne
Kunst – Painting, Smoking, Eating” (2008) was such a case, curated by Andreas
Baur together with Marcus Weber, whereby the curator invited an artist (also rep-
resented in the exhibition) to collaborate with him.
“Supplementary Show-Format” (Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber)

At this point Marcus Weber had already had some experience as a curator, as
was indicated by his contribution to the symposium developed and presented
together with Gunter Reski.14 Under the title “Almost without a Borrower’s Ticket
between Prosumer and Author” the two artists presented exhibition projects that
each had curated independent of the other in the last 15 years, but also their jointly
curated exhibition of painting “Captain Pamphile – Ein Bildroman in Stücken”,
which had taken place in the Deichtorhallen Hamburg/ Falckenberg Collection in
2011. The exhibition concept was based on the pirate novel by Alexandre Dumas.
On the basis of this work, Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber had made a storyboard
with possible pictorial motifs and then asked artists that they knew well whether
they might be interested in working with them on this “picture story”.
This example illuminated some aspects regarding the motivation behind

organising exhibitions parallel to one’s own artwork: for Reski and Weber, beco-
ming active in this context resulted from “dissatisfaction” with the fact that specific
artists – or even exhibitions – that one would like to see, could not be seen. In the
retrospective study based on many concrete examples, however, it also became
obvious that this development should be seen as connected, among other things,
with the “powerful emergence of self-organised exhibition spaces and fanzines in
the 1990s and first decade of the millennium” that “were sprouting rapidly all over
in Cologne, Düsseldorf and Berlin” at the time. New forms of exhibition presenta-
tion or displays were developed in this context, which served to achieve a “new
perspective”, positioning “one’s own work in a real sphere of reflection” or in rela-
tion to a “virtual circle of friends”.
Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber presented exhibitions curated by artists as

a “supplementary show-format” that had lost the “after-taste of self-help” comple-
10 Issue 19 / June 2013

tely. Today, they said, “professional” curators were also making use of these “free
artistic approaches”.15 At the same time, however, it was made clear in this contribu-
tion that the question of artistic authorship in a project like “Captain Pamphile”
held potential for conflict and called for that very open and responsible dealings
with one another. There is a need to inform all those participating quite clearly
from the outset that they will have to be prepared to employ an “unusual, applied
and commission-oriented working method”. The conditions of participation and
presentation were openly negotiated in advance, therefore. In this special case, it
may also have been helpful that ultimately the entire project was based on a story
by a third party, i.e. Alexandre Dumas, which shifted the focus away from the cura-
tors to some extent.
A Question of “Attitude” (Tilo Schulz and Jörg van den Berg)

A year before the symposium, we were provided with a very obvious
example of how differently an exhibition appears when an artist works as a curator
following a powerful urge to stage his own work in John Bock’s exhibition “Fisch-
GrätenMelkStand” (2010) in the Temporary Kunsthalle in Berlin: despite the more
than 60 artists participating, ultimately this exhibition could only be perceived as a
comprehensive installation of John Bock himself.16 Directly before this, artist Tilo
Schulz had shown the exhibition “squatting. erinnern, vergessen, besetzen” in the
Temporary Kunsthalle in cooperation with exhibition maker Jörg van den Berg – a
truly «complementary» contrast programme when seen from today’s standpoint.
Schulz and van den Berg – in accordance with the title of their contribution
– reflected on the «Relation between Artwork and Exhibition». Thanks to specific
ways and means of staging, in exhibitions by this duo of curators who have been
cooperating for some years now the viewer is caught up in an active process of
perception: here, the focus is directed towards the «presence of the individual
artwork», from which is spun «a web of formal and content-oriented references» to
the other works being shown. In the case of the exhibition «squatting» with its total
of 22 works by 17 artists, complex viewing axes and spatial situations emerged; but
this was not all – the Kunsthalle had to be entered through three different entran-
ces and exited again in order to experience the full exhibition. In this way the «space
of art» and the «space of political remembrance» (Schlossplatz) remained separate,
it is true, but also became interlocked «in the movement of the viewer».17
By contrast to the other contributors, Tilo Schulz and Jörg van den Berg thus
focused on the art and exhibition practice in itself and managed without detailed
discussion of authorship and power relations in the complex constellation existing
between artist and exhibition maker. Ultimately, according to their thesis, it is not a
matter “of the difference between curator and artist but of one’s attitude to the
artwork, to the artist, and to the viewer.”18 This opinion puts Tilo Schulz and Jörg
van den Berg close to the tendency presented at the outset: a tendency to direct
the focus less towards the protagonists of today’s art system and instead towards
the processes of curating in themselves. Even Dieter Roelstraete’s suggestion to
refer to the “art worker” reappears here, albeit in an altered form.
Conclusion and Epilogue

The symposium “Why Artists Curate” proved to be – not least because of
the participants’ very different experiences in curatorial practice – a forum for
controversial discussion. While Andreas Schlaegel saw the artist-curator – definitely
motivated by an urge for self-presentation – as a possible way out of the dilemma
11 Issue 19 / June 2013

of an art sphere corrupted by financial interests, Andraes Baur attributed to the

curating artist a greater degree of special competence but doubted that his ideas
and concepts could be conveyed in a manner suited to institutions and “fitting for
the masses”. In turn, Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber presented the artist-curator
as a necessary corrective in the art system, capable of filling empty spaces and
serving as a model to “professional” curators as well. Tilo Schulz and Jörg van den
Berg, finally, saw the traditional distinction between curator and artist-curator as
obsolete and instead shifted the focus towards the attitude of each actor with
respect to the artwork, the exhibition as a whole, and the viewer.
Seen from the vantage point of practice, the hype surrounding the artist-
curator in the popular press mentioned above gave way to entirely different questi-
ons, directed increasingly towards specific competencies. Conversations in the
run-up to this publication give a similar picture. Hans D. Christ (one of the two
directors of the Württembergischer Kunstverein), for example, sees a perhaps
slightly different approach adopted by curators with an artistic background («not
purely discursive»). But the potential for conflict, he says, lies less in questions of
authorship and far more where there is a lack of shared competence, e.g. when
«there is no sensitivity, an inability to read things that are relevant to practice from
one’s theories».19
The work of the curator – as Jakob Schillinger sums up, for example – con-
sists in “mediating between works of art and the public by making them relevant,
situating and contextualising them in a specific moment for the visitor.”20 The claim
that artists are fundamentally better suited to such a task than others is probably
one we can banish confidently to the realm of popular press fairy-tales. But the idea
that competent partners need to cooperate as sensitively as possible for the success
of an exhibition, ensuring that the shared artistic-curatorial intention comes across
to the public: this is a challenge that needs to be mastered afresh – in whatever
constellation – with every new exhibition.
Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg
The Mission: The aim of the Kunststiftung is to support young artists in tak-
ing the first steps in their professional careers by awarding them stipends and pro-
viding them with publicity. Since its foundation the Kunststiftung has helped over
900 artists from fine art, music, literature and the performing arts. Besides award-
ing stipends, the Kunststiftung focuses its efforts on organizing exhibitions, con-
certs and readings.
The Model: Founded in 1977 above party lines by a group of members of
Parliament and private individuals,
from the outset the Kunstiftung GmbH has always had 200 partners. The Kunstif-
tung is primarily funded by donations. Donations come from all sectors of the
population: businesses, city councils, private individuals. The federal state of Baden-
Württemberg lends its backing to this model with complementary funding that
doubles the sum of the donations – this structure ensures that private engagement
is rewarded by public coffers.
The work of the foundation: Up to 10,000 euros are awarded annually in the
form of stipends. Juries of experts decide on who receives the stipends. Stipends
are awarded to artists under the age of 35 who live or were born in Baden-Wuert-
temberg. As of 2012 the art foundation is also awarding stipends for art criticism,
a first in Germany. Since 2009 the Kunststiftung has maintained a ‘contact office’
for the professionalization of fine artists (see footnote no. 2). The Kunststiftung
maintains two studios in Berlin.
www.kunststiftung.de
12 Issue 19 / June 2013

Footnotes kulturspiegel/performance-hotel-wo-sich-singen-
1 Silke Hohmann: „Der Trend geht zum unter-der-dusche-lohnt-a-683568.html, 22.2.2010)
Curartist“, in: Monopol – Magazin für Kunst und 12 http://performanceexpress.wordpress.com
Leben (online edition: www.monopol-magazin.de/ 13 The sections of text marked as quotations
artikel/20102189/Der-Trend-geht-zum-Curartist. are taken from Andreas Baur’s handout for the
html, 16.9.2010) symposium.
2 The Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg (see 14 The sections of text marked as quotations
above) has been running the Kunstbüro since 2009. are taken from Gunter Reski’s and Marcus Weber’s
Besides individual counselling sessions, it organises handout for the symposium.
workshops, seminars and lectures that deal with 15 Beatrice von Bismarck recently noted once
professional questions, discuss current topics and are again that the rise of the curator figure in the art
intended to promote direct networking. These events system can be seen as fundamentally linked to the
take place all over Baden-Württemberg. The Kunst- artistic practices at the beginning of the 1990s
büro of the Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg is (“interdisciplinary, interprofessional working meth-
funded by the Ministry for Science, Research and Art ods”). The emerging visibility of the exhibition as a
of Baden-Württemberg. In the years 2010 and 2012 medium (“site-specifics, post studio practice and
the Kunstbüro was provided with additional funding institutional critique”), as Jakob Schillinger added,
from the state, which made it possible to carry out played a part in this: after all, it is difficult “to imagine
many larger symposia in the whole state, including an artwork independent of the way in which it is
the one presented here (www.kunstbuero-bw.de). presented. On the level of presentation, reflection
3 Cf. e.g. „Außerhalb – Ein Projekt zur Vernet- and construction of meaning,” this leads to a “very
zung und Förderung von Projekträumen in Baden- close interaction between artistic and curatorial
Württemberg“, ed. by Kunstbüro der Kunststiftung practices”; cf. the series of discussions „Zwischen
Baden-Württemberg, Stuttgart 2011 as well as Nicole Kunst und Öffentlichkeit“ in: Texte zur Kunst, issue
Fritz: „‘Plötzlich war der Raum da‘ – Aufbruchstim- 86, pp. 63–87, here pp. 63 and 69
mung in der Stuttgarter Off-Szene“, in: Junge Kunst 16 Cf. e.g. www.artnet.de/magazine/fis-
No. 74 (2008), pp. 44–46 chgratenmelkstand-in-der-temporaren-kunsthalle-
4 Cf. e.g. www.interventionsraum.de, www. berlin
hermesundderpfau.de or www.kunsttresor.net 17 www.columbus-artfoundation.de/caf/
5 After 16 years, Columbus Art Foundation has extern-temp-kunsthalle.php
had to discontinue its activities until further notice, 18 Handout for the symposium by Tilo Schulz
apart from its cooperation with the ADV regarding and Jörg van den Berg
the Förderpreis / promotional award; further infor- 19 This conversation with Hans D. Christ took
mation at www.columbus-artfoundation.de place in the Württembergischer Kunstverein in
6 Kunstreport 2003/2004. At this time, the Stuttgart on 21.1.2013.
managing director of the Deutscher Künstlerbund 20 Jakob Schillinger in the discussion „Zwis-
was Bernd Milla; today he is manager of the Kunst- chen Kunst und Öffentlichkeit“ in: Texte zur Kunst,
stiftung Baden-Württemberg (see above). issue 86, pp. 63–87, here p. 63
7 Tobias Timm: „Die Macht der Geschmacks-
verstärker“, in: DIE ZEIT, 5.5.2011, No. 19 (online
edition: www.zeit.de/2011/19/Kunst-Kuratoren,
12.5.2011)
8 Cf. e.g. Texte zur Kunst, issue 86 (June 2012;
special theme: “The Curators”)
9 On this approach, cf. also Maria Lind (ed.):
Performing the Curatorial – Within and Beyond Art,
Berlin 2012
10 The sections of text marked as quotations
are taken from Andreas Schlaegel’s handout for the
symposium.
11 http://performancehotel.wordpress.com;
cf. also Tobias Becker: „Performance-Hotel: Wo sich
Singen unter der Dusche lohnt“, in: KulturSPIEGEL
3/2010 (online edition: www.spiegel.de/kultur/
13 Issue 19 / June 2013

Homo Academicus Curatorius: Millet Matrix as Intercultural Paradigm On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Homo Academicus Curatorius:

Millet Matrix
as Intercultural Paradigm
by Marc James Léger
But we who somehow are so tainted by cynicism, because of our helplessness in the ugly world
which surrounds and presses on us, cannot we somehow raise our own hopes at least to the
point of thinking that what hope glimmers on the millions of the slaves of Commerce is some-
thing better than a mere delusion, the false dawn of a cloudy midnight with which ’tis only the
moon that struggles? – William Morris, “Art and Socialism”
Since the 1980s and 90s, museum and exhibi- produce this objectification from the outside, I begin
tion practices have undergone unprecedented and by asking: What is it today that promises to renew the
much warranted study. As part of this new develop- belief in art’s social value but which tends rather to
ment of the field of museum studies, curating has also reproduce the void of pseudo-satisfaction?
received sustained analysis as a practice that creates a
space for discourse and critique. Some of the ways in In “Welcome to the Desert of Post-Ideology,”
which curatorial theory has both surfed and suffered Slavoj Žižek describes the difference between pleas-
the neoliberal re-engineering of art institutions can be ure and the psychoanalytic concept of enjoyment
noticed in the almost schizophrenic breakdown (jouissance).4 For Lacan, enjoyment as jouissance trans-
between certain categories of practice, between lates into plus-de-jouir, an excess-enjoyment beyond
making and theorizing (Rogoff), between artist and the pleasure principle. Within contemporary con-
curator (O’Neill), artist-run centre and museum sumer culture, sated with novelty, society attempts to
(Doherty), community centre and academy (Esche), incorporate this excess into calculated pleasures. The
avant-gardism and inclusion, production and presen- function of enlightened hedonistic consumerism,
tation (Farquharson), and alternative and official Žižek argues, is to deprive enjoyment of its excessive,
systems (Möntmann).1 Notwithstanding the invest- traumatic dimensions. “Enjoyment is tolerated,” he
ment of the New Institutionalism in the practices of writes, “solicited even, but on condition that it does
certain key curators working in certain galleries and not threaten our psychic or biological stability: choco-
museums, the field is also capable of demonstrating late yes, but fat free; Coke yes, but diet; mayonnaise
once in a while that, as Pierre Bourdieu argued in yes, but without cholesterol; sex yes, but safe sex.”5
Homo Academicus, a turn towards the originary and Žižek argues that here we are in the realm of what
the ordinary is also a turn towards the alien.2 In this Lacan described as the Discourse of the University,
regard, an art exhibition can be shown to be capable where pleasure is regulated by scientific knowledge
of providing its own context in such a way that the and untroubled by the Real of enjoyment. Seen in
reading of it is not internal and the goal is an objectiv- this light, what might we be able to discern as the
ity that does not lose the benefits of what is familiar. post-ideological coordinates of curating? One partic-
Here, the function of criticism is not the “interna- ularly influential document of ‘post-ideological’ theo-
tional solidarity between holders of equivalent posi- rization is Irit Rogoff’s “Turning,” an essay that calls
tions in different national fields,” but rather, the pres- on institutional players to stop lamenting what they
entation of a singular exchange in which self-analysis can’t control (the structures and processes of capital-
provides a useful description of some of the invariants ist ideology), and to turn instead towards sites of
of the genus homo academicus curatorius.3 In order to possibility, potentiality, actualization, access, and so
14 Issue 19 / June 2013

on, “liberated,” as it were, from organized anti-capi- that structure the impersonality of social relations.
talist resistance.6 Here, institutional critique is trans- The emphasis that is placed on bodies, affect, lan-
formed into ‘institutional chic’; the emasculation of guage and identity (on so much “animal disquiet”)
critical voices by biopolitical processes is compensated does very little to reveal those impersonal forces since
by curators who try to fill the void created by the this emphasis is understood only abstractly and avoids
diffusion of neoliberal state and market mechanisms. the concrete terms of social reproduction. Conse-
Similarly, within the realm of socially engaged art, the quently, contemporary curating might very well pre-
prohibition against anti-art gestures makes it such vent us from making difficult distinctions between
that institutions seek to unite desire and Law rather conservative, liberal and radical perspectives, allowing
than oppose them.7 Curators today no longer prevent art, with all of its post-ideological affinities with “the
artists from drawing ties between aesthetics and the political” and “agonistic public spheres” to replace
fields of class power and corporate money – they radical political organizing.12
instead solicit critiques and deconstructions of all
sorts, thereby effectively sabotaging them, reducing
provocation to contractual mutual consent.
Beyond the matter of disciplinary societies and

societies of control, part of the problem of today’s
ultra-postmodern “insiderism” can be assessed as a
matter of belief. Žižek argues that we often do not
need to believe in something ourselves in order to
believe but that we believe through others, or
through external signs, symbols and other material
surrogates.8 One of the functions of curating is to
relieve us of the function of believing by effectively
performing this function for us. Within the condi-
tions of market capitalism, the curator mediates the
1
proper relationship towards artists and audiences as
subjects involved in commodity relations. In this
process, a kind of “curatorial complex,” artists and
publics lose whatever autonomy or independence
they might have had and are reduced to part objects
within an ideological matrix. Today these relation-
ships are compounded as social capital increasingly
replaces the kinds of cultural capital that were previ-
ously considered substantial enough to sustain a
legitimate art practice.9 Networking, community,
cooperation, collaboration, participation, potentiality:
these can be and sometimes are the watchwords of
increased interpersonal violence.10 On this score, and
in terms of class relations, very little of our social
exchange has been transformed since Marx charac-
terized the rights of man as the paradise of “Freedom,
2
Equality, Property and Bentham.”11 Given that so-
called social mediation (social constructionism, per-
formativity) is the necessary means to translate stakes Whereas today’s post-postmodern institutions
in the world of class relations into the worldlessness continue to operate according to what Pierre
of theory, contemporary curators and other institu- Bourdieu defined as the function of art within class
tionalized cadres call on publics (or better still, coun- society, this social function is all the more difficult to
ter-publics) to reconnect with art – however, without assess as the majority of institutionalized players
believing in it themselves. The problem, then, is not refuse the language of class distinction.13 One is more
that contemporary curating is theoretically concerned likely to find the values and politics of liberal ideology
with critique, but that it does not do enough, in the expressed in terms of pluralism and culture wars. This
terms of curating, to display and challenge the forces culturalization of politics, however, provides further
15 Issue 19 / June 2013

indications that few today continue to believe in art Millet Matrix I was described as part one of “A two-
itself, that it is nothing but a bad joke unless it can part curatorial project by David Tomas.” Tomas is an
translate into those kinds of struggles that are easily established Canadian artist whose projects and writ-
appropriated by the ruling classes and thus operate as ings have provided aesthetic and ethnographic explo-
stakes in a game that is framed by social mobility and rations of the cultures of visual representation.19
utility. The art game becomes today a knowledge Millet Matrix I falls squarely within Tomas’ ethno-
game, an experience economy or any other term by graphically-based investigations. As he puts it, with
which the global underclass appears as only a problem regard to Millet Matrix I,
that justifies the existence and rule of experts.14 As
for the dark matter that Gregory Sholette identified There is no question here of adopting the
as the raw material that feeds the art world, “the position of curator-as-artist or artist-as-cura-
structural invisibility of most professionally trained tor. I would like to think of this practice as that
artists whose very underdevelopment is essential to of a transcultural visual worker, or more pre-
normal art world functions,” the system usually has cisely, as that of a visual worker who is navigat-
nothing to say.15 ing in the unknown spaces that separate one
artist’s practice from someone else’s and who
How then to get past the liberal psychosocial is operating with an alternative – transcultural
drama that would pit cooperative artists, networkers – viewpoint on the world, disciplines and
and perennial insiders against resistant, difficult sub- knowledge.20
jects?16 Might a practice that outwardly changes
nothing but that questions basic institutional coordi- Millet Matrix I was the third of Tomas’ transcul-
nates offer an alternative within a system that still tural curatorial ventures and acted as a kind of visual
needs art? Might the real threat to art’s dissolution thesis, encapsulating the reasoning that structures
be our non-belief in it and if so, what kind of curating Desnoyers’ needlepoint practice. The apartment
is willing to acknowledge the most depressing aspects installation was accompanied by a text by Tomas
of all the talk about cooperation and collaboration?17 titled “Programming and Reprogramming Artworks:
One particularly salient proposal has been put for- A Case of Painting and Practicing Conceptual and
ward by Mark Hutchinson, who argues that in a uni- Media Art by Other Means,” published in the Spring
verse of dematerialized practices, we need an analysis 2009 issue of the Université de Montréal journal
of collaboration wherein the curator operates as a Intermédialités.21 Whereas Tomas is a Professor of
kind of analyst or subject supposed to know – one Visual Arts at the Université du Québec à Montréal,
who knows that he or she doesn’t know, but who can Desnoyers is a graduate of the doctoral Humanities
nevertheless “provide the conditions in which the Interdisciplinary Program at Concordia University.
patient can disabuse him or herself of the belief in the Tomas has been Desnoyers’ teacher and friend since
subject supposed to know.”18 In this kind of transfer- the early 1990s and is presently acting as her post-
ential relation, artist and curator are not in an equiva- doctorate supervisor. While Desnoyers worked on
lent relation, Hutchinson argues, but involved in an the completion of her dissertation, Tomas curated his
imaginary investment in, and, I would add, struggle fourth exhibition, which was based on Joseph Con-
over cultural capital. In the following I explore the rad’s 1899 novella Heart of Darkness.22 A catalogue for
potential of this idea of curator-as-analyst by examin- this exhibition, titled Live rightly, die, die… (2012), was
ing the collaborative exchanges between two Mon- soon accompanied by a self-published artist’s book
treal-based artists: Rosika Desnoyers and David titled Escape Velocity: Alternative Instruction Prototype
Tomas. for Playing the Knowledge Game (2012).23 These and
other texts provide us with some valuable documents
In December of 2010, an exhibition titled Millet with which we can address Tomas’ role as transcul-
Matrix I was held in the apartment of Rosika Desnoy- tural worker. Following Millet Matrix I, Tomas and
ers, an artist who since the mid-1990s has been work- Desnoyers planned a second exhibition, Millet Matrix
ing with needlepoint as a means to explore operations II, in which the black and white image of Desnoyers’
of power and knowledge within university and Millet Grid that appears in Tomas’ Intermédialités essay
museum discourse. The exhibition was focused on a becomes the basis for a new needlepoint work called
distributed presentation of a work by Desnoyers titled simply Millet Matrix.
Millet Grid (2006), which is comprised of two juxta-
posed versions of After Jean-François Millet, Gleaners Before I address the relevance of Live rightly, die,
(1857), one from 2002-2003 and one from 2006. die… and Escape Velocity to the two Millet Matrix exhi-
16 Issue 19 / June 2013

bitions, it is necessary to say that after Millet Matrix I image for Millet Matrix, folding Desnoyers’ art prac-
Desnoyers worked not only on her PhD thesis but also tice directly into the context of Tomas’ theoretical
on the large Millet Matrix canvas – a work that took writing about her work and within the framework of a
two years to complete.24 In an unpublished docu- two-part apartment exhibition. In “Millet Matrix II:
ment, titled “Millet Matrix II: Between Commission Between Commission and Collaboration,” Tomas
and Collaboration,” Tomas describes the way in which states that Millet Matrix I raised the question of the
Millet Matrix came into being. He explains how the “authorial politics of the curatorial gesture” in relation
works chosen for display in the first exhibition were to “the dialogical model upon which it was based.”26
two “needlegraph” works by Desnoyers based on He adds:
Jean-François Millet’s The Gleaners. Put together,
these works comprise Millet Grid. In a separate inter- Millet Matrix II has taken form through a com-
view document, Tomas describes Millet Grid in these mission that was initiated in December 2010. (…)
terms: [T]he commission was used to trigger a muta-
tion in Millet Matrix I’s conceptual, historical
The Millet piece foregrounds the notion of and genealogical logics through the production
work that is so important to Rosika’s feminist of a new work whose authorship resided out-
and historical interests, as well as to her own side of the basic parameters of Desnoyers’
method of production, since it is not only a practice (...) The result, in the case of Millet
painting about work, but it is also a painting Matrix II, is a single ‘meta-work’ that transcribes
about the work of women in the field. Moreo- and fuses Millet Grid’s independent pictorial
ver, it is interesting to note that the women in elements. However, this work is not based on
Millet’s painting are anonymous in form and the original Millet Grid. Instead, it is based on a
character; their faces are hidden from the small black and white reproduction. The repro-
viewer because of the way they engage with duction accompanied an essay on Desnoyers’
the serial and mechanical task. The two Millets work – “Programming and Reprogramming
in Rosika’s work were bought on ebay and their Artworks: A Case of Painting and Practicing
authors are unknown. (…) Conceptual and Media Art by Other Means” –
that had been published in the Spring 2009
While each work might appear to be a straight- issue of Intermédialités, a Montreal-based aca-
forward reworking of an original needlepoint demic journal. (…)
based on the errors that Rosika has discovered
in the original, which leads to the production of Entrusting a commission to someone is (…) to
a second “monochrome” work punctuated create an affective and principled bond of
with “holes” created by the absence of one or commitment vis-à-vis the project to be under-
more stitches, each work is also a kind of portal taken, in place of a pecuniary-based contrac-
into the social and aesthetic history of the tual bond. In the case of Millet Matrix (2010-
medium, as well as a commentary on the work 2012), the relationship was based on friendship,
of art’s theoretical place today. Each work is trust and a common interest in exploring the
the result of an articulation of a double autho- possibilities of a practice.27
rial logic (original and a copy that is also an
original) as well as an exploration of the divided One question that is worth asking in response
and differed nature of the original in each case to this text is the extent to which it does in fact,
(original and copy). (…) through the commission, trigger such a “mutation” in
the artist’s historical and genealogical logics, or
The mark of individuality, the author’s signa- whether it actually details only some of the spatial
ture, is encoded in a series of absences – a and temporal possibilities that a genealogical project
pattern of holes – in a monochromatic field. makes available.28 To answer this one must consider
By revealing its pattern, Rosika is replacing in its entirety, and not only as one wishes, the general
herself as author through the very process program of Desnoyers’ research project, which pro-
through which she creates her fiction as author poses a Foucauldian-inspired “genealogy” of nine-
of the final work. 25 teenth-century Berlin work, the precursor of what is
today more generally known as needlepoint.
Millet Grid, as it was reproduced in black and
white in Tomas’ essay, becomes the pattern, or model
17 Issue 19 / June 2013

Desnoyers’ thesis in research-creation has of art, and that reflects upon artistic practice as a
developed over the last six years as an unprecedented value-producing and meaning-making enterprise.
examination of the practices of eighteenth-century
needlepainting and nineteenth-century needlepoint Given that Desnoyers describes her practice as
(Berlin work). Her work begins with needlepoint as a neo-conceptual, it is perhaps not altogether surprising
now submerged practice that reaches back two hun- that Tomas could define her work as “conceptual and
dred years. In the early nineteenth century, Berlin media art by other means.” In the journal essay that
work was the most widely practiced art form among became the vehicle for both the impromptu catalogue
European middle-class women. Despite this fact, and of Millet Matrix I and the source for the visual referent
for complex historical reasons, it has hitherto escaped of the large needlepoint canvas, Millet Matrix, Tomas
serious scholarly study. Desnoyers’ investigation does relates Desnoyers’ work to computer programming,
not seek to fill in the gaps of scholarship with historian association that is supported not only by Desnoy-
cist narration, but instead looks at the history of ers’ study of the proximity of art and science in the
writing about embroidery for clues concerning the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, and of the his-
various discursive formations that could on the one torical ties between calculating machines, computers
hand account for its immense popularity in the early and textile weaving, but also by Tomas’ numerous
nineteenth century, and on the other, its decline and investigations of cybernetic systems as they relate to
“submersion” at the time of the rise of a discourse of cultural practice.31 The grid-based logic of Berlin
aesthetic autonomy. Some of the fields of investiga- work charts links them not only he says to the basic
tion that she tracks include: the shift from aristocratic methods of mass production, through a division of
amateur artists in the eighteenth century to that of labour and through the automation of creativity, but
the making of the modern amateur; the importance to post-60s conceptual art practice as defined in
of practices of copying (fundamental to needlepaint- particular by Sol LeWitt. Here Desnoyers’ research
ing – for which prestigious paintings are copied in area and research methods overlap with Tomas’, in
embroidered textile) in both learned liberal arts dis- particular as he defines technologies in terms of
course and in entrepreneurial product innovation; the multidimensional intersystems. In his book of essays
significance of an industrial aesthetic in early practices on photography, A Blinding Flash of Light, Tomas asks
of Berlin work, a characteristic that would make it the simple question, “What is a new technology?”
anathema to the Arts and Crafts movement and a foil The usual answer to this presumes a linear temporal
in the rhetoric of the foundation of the Royal School schema in which an invention progresses towards a
of Needlework. By the turn of the twentieth century, more contemporary version. Tomas’ alternative is a
embroidery historians and museum curators would “networked/intersystemic approach” that presents a
lament Berlin work as a “mistaken art” that led series of technologies – the camera lucida, railway
refined embroidery away from its true potential.29 locomotion, perspective machines, photography,
The crux of all of this for Desnoyers is that, as she cinematography, virtual reality – assembled around a
puts it, local network that links events across space and time.
This relational history of media suggests that there is
Berlin work, understood in terms of genealogy, no strict determinacy to the presence of technologies
implies that the truth of needlepoint is not and that “relationships are defined in multiple direc-
grounded in the past any more than it is in the tions and dimensions.”32 A new technology can there-
present and that in each case what we have to fore be understood in terms of the space created
contend with are discursive regimes that create between different inventions as they intersect within
truths about culture. Needlepoint is therefore a transhistorical continuum.
a means for me to make work that incorpo-
rates a reflexive critique of the disciplinary This idea of a relational history of media corre-
regimes within which contemporary artists sponds adequately to a genealogical method of
operate.30 research, which does not necessarily look to the past,
to the moment of emergence or origins, to locate the
In this regard Desnoyers distinguishes her work most active truths or the most effective agencements.
from the aims and ambitions of contemporary artists What both methods reveal are the ways in which
who reclaim craft practices and who with this pretend knowledge is shaped by diverse practices and institu-
to challenge museum discourse. She thinks of needle- tions. In Live rightly, die, die…, a large project in which
point instead as a ‘problematic’ that engages issues Tomas operates as both artist and curator, the frame-
around technology, creativity and the social functions work of Heart of Darkness is used to bring up to date
18 Issue 19 / June 2013

the correspondence between the “exhibitionary com- resented in Escape Velocity and Millet Matrix connect
plex” and the “carceral archipelago” of today’s neo- process and product and acknowledge the university’s
colonial relations. Mediating both worlds are the role in the production and reception of artworks. To
rapidly mutating artistic and intellectual practices of practice an institutional critique of the university is
today’s culture and knowledge industries. If Desnoy- not to conform to Lacan’s Discourse of the University,
ers has chosen to pursue interdisciplinary research as in which systems of knowledge confront radical art-
a way out of the narrow confines of aesthetics, a field ists in a confidence game designed to structure belief
in which needlepoint is typically limited to only one within capitalist society at large, masking the social
basic register – women’s craft hobby – Tomas has purpose of the neoliberal university as a space for the
addressed the parameters of such as escape. In the commodification of educational services; it is, rather,
case of Live rightly, die, die…, his concern is ethno- to propose something along the lines of the Discourse
graphic, proposing curating as a means to place the of the Analyst, in which artists confront audiences,
spectator in a decentered position regarding their presuming knowledge itself to be the function and
own culture and as a way of estranging contemporary purpose of the university.
colonial attitudes.33 However, in contemporaneous
projects he is more specific about the locus of his field
of study. In “Dead End, Sophisticated Endgame Strat-
egy, or a Third Way?” he suggests that the center of
gravity of institutional critique has shifted from the
museum towards the university. Alternatives to
traditional institutional critique, he says, should be
directed towards a “self-reflexive ‘analysis’ of the
university, its educational functions, systems of accul-
turation (disciplinary models and methods), economic
and political affiliations in critical-institutional
terms.”34 This is precisely the task that he assigns
himself in Escape Velocity, an artist’s book that traces
the changing institutional and intellectual frameworks
3
through which his practice has developed over the
years. The university, he argues, “processes the art
world’s human and intellectual raw materials and It might in this context be worth noting that
transforms them into viable products (artists, theo- over the last year or so, during the exhibition of Live
ries, and practices)” all the while “serv[ing] as a meas- rightly, die, die…, the publication of Escape Velocity, the
ure of progress (and ultimately of viability) against which writing of A Genealogy of Berlin Work and the making
to pass judgment on the archaic models of creativity of Millet Matrix, more than 300,000 Québec students
that still dominate the art world’s culture, economy, organized collectively to prevent a 75% increase in
and socio-institutional organization.”35 university tuition. Protests that began in March 2012
gained momentum in May when the provincial Liberal
In Desnoyers’ thesis, aspects of such an institu- government passed an emergency bill known as Law
tional history are seen in the formation of profes- 78 (Law12), which effectively criminalized the strike.
sional art academies in the eighteenth century, where After months of civil disobedience and unprece-
elite amateur practices were routed and where the dented demonstrations in which citizens added their
rules for annual exhibitions prevented practices of voices to the students who later called for a social
copying, all the better to improve the social circum- strike, the government opted for a kind of referen-
stances of most professional painters. Working with dum through the means of an election. The failure of
needlepoint for her is in itself a foray into histories of the Charest government to win another term and the
domination and an elaboration of the conditions of rescinding of Law 78 should, however, be seen for the
possibility for a contemporary practice that by and partial victories that they are. At the present time of
large has remained anti-professional, obscure and writing, April 2013, the Parti Québécois government
resistant. under Pauline Marois has given notice that negotia-
tions with student organizations must move beyond
While contemporary curating emphasizes “psychodrama” and towards mature renegotiation of
collaboration, and while contemporary engaged art tuition increases indexed to inflation. According to
highlights social process, art practices like those rep- members of the ASSÉ (Association pour une solidar-
19 Issue 19 / June 2013

ité syndicale étudiante), the group that organized 5 Žižek, “Welcome to the Desert of Post-Ideol-
most of the mass demonstrations of the Printemps ogy,” 48.
érable, the government’s concern at the summit will 6 Irit Rogoff, “Turning,” Journal #10 (Novem-
be with “quality of teaching, accessibility and partici- ber 2008), available at www.e-flux.com/journal/
pation, governance and financing,” code words for turning.
the further commodification of education and job 7 A good example of such policing of avant-
training, and the building of market mechanisms garde excess is noticed in Grant Kester, The One and
based on price and quality control.36 Given this situa- the Many: Contemporary Collaborative Art in a Global
tion, the conceit that there is no outside to capitalist Context (Durham: Duke University Press, 2011).
crisis is hardly more intelligent and knowledge-based 8 Slavoj Žižek, On Belief (London: Routledge,
than collective acts of resistance. Against the now 2001).
institutionalized hullabaloo concerning community 9 See Pierre Bourdieu, Distinction: A Social
and collaboration, I would propose fidelity to some of Critique of the Judgement of Taste, trans. Richard Nice
the terms within a relational history of politics wherein (Cambridge: Harvard University Press, [1979] 1984).
the words society, solidarity and socialism stand 10 With regard to potentiality, Badiou teaches
against the occlusion of art practices that refuse the us that an event “is not the realization of a possibility
postmodern ‘no man’s land’ beyond left and right. that resides within the situation,” but “paves the way
for the possibility of what – from the limited perspec-
If the average contemporary curator helps to tive of the make-up of this situation or the legality of
produce the artist as a commodity, the function of this world – is strictly impossible.” See Alain Badiou,
the curator-analyst is to display as openly as possible “The Idea of Communism,” in Costas Douzinas and
the material force of ideology. The present obsession Slavoj Žižek, eds. The Idea of Communism (London:
with the idea of the curator as a collaborator is a false Verso, 2010) 6-7.
problem. Like Tomas and Desnoyers, institutional 11 Karl Marx, “The Sale and Purchase of
players should do more to examine the transforma- Labour-Power,” in Capital: A Critique of Political
tion of the artist within the new knowledge economy. Economy, Volume 1, trans. Ben Fowkes (London:
Penguin, [1867] 1976) 280.
12 On this subject see Alain Badiou, “Does the
Notes Notion of Activist Art Still Have Meaning?” InterActiv-
1 See, respectively, Irit Rogoff, “From Criticism ist Info Exchange (November 19, 2010), available at
to Critique to Criticality,” Transversal (January 2003), http://interactivist.autonomedia.org/node/13795.
available at eipcp.net/transversal/0806/rogoff1/en; See also Jodi Dean, The Communist Horizon (London:
Gerd Elise Morland and Heidi Bale Amundsen, “The Verso, 2012).
Politics of the Small Act: Interview with Paul O’Neill,” 13 See Marc James Léger, “Welcome to the
On Curating (2009), available at www.on-curating.org/ Cultural Goodwill Revolution: On Class Composition
documents/oncurating_issue_0410.pdf; Claire in the Age of Classless Struggle,” in Brave New Avant
Doherty, “The Institution is Dead! Long Live the Garde: Essays on Contemporary Art and Politics (Win-
Institution! Contemporary Art and New Institutional- chester, UK: Zero Books, 2012) 82-99.
ism,” Engage #15 (Summer 2004), available at www. 14 On this see George Yúdice, The Expediency of
scribd.com/doc/32788979/Institution-is-Dead; Alex Culture: Uses of Culture in the Global Era (Durham: Duke
Farquharson, “Bureaux de change,” Frieze #101 University Press, 2003) as well as Marc James Léger,
(September 2006), available at www.frieze.com/ “Art and Art History After Globalization,” Third Text
issue/article/bureaux_de_change/; Nina Möntmann, #118, 26:5 (September 2012) 515-527.
“The Rise and Fall of New Institutionalism: Perspec- 15 Gregory Sholette, Dark Matter: Art and
tives on a Possible Future,” Transversal (August 2007), Politics in the Age of Enterprise Culture (London: Pluto
available at eipcp.net/transversal/0407/moent- Press, 2011) 1-3.
mann/en. 16 To give one example, at the October 2012
2 Pierre Bourdieu, Homo Academicus, trans. Creative Time Summit, Tom Finkelpearl, Director of
Peter Collier (Cambridge: Polity Press, [1984] 1988) xii. the Queens Museum of Art, compared Martin Luther
3 Bourdieu, Homo Academicus, xv. King Jr. and Malcolm X and recommended that
4 Slavoj Žižek, “Welcome to the Desert of artists be more like the former and cooperate with
Post-Ideology,” in The Year of Dreaming Dangerously publics and institutions rather than take a militant
(London: Verso, 2012) 47-61. stance.
20 Issue 19 / June 2013

17 See Karl Marx, “Co-operation,” in Capital, 30 Desnoyers, A Genealogy of Berlin Work: A

439-454; see also Christoph Spehr, “Free Coopera- History of Errors.
tion,” Transversal (August 2005), available at http:// 31 See for instance, David Tomas, “From the
eipcp.net/transversal/0805/spehr/en. Cyborg to Posthuman Space: On the Total Eclipse of
18 Mark Hutchinson cited in Dave Beech and an Idea,” Parachute #112 (Oct-Dec 2003) 81-91;
Mark Hutchinson, “Inconsequent Bayonets? A “Notes Toward a Metropolis for the Twilight of a
Correspondence on Curation, Independence and Mind,” Public #32 (2005) 94-107; “Harold Cohen:
Collaboration,” in Paul O’Neill, ed. Curating Subjects Expanding the Field: The Artist as Artificial or Alien
(London: Open Editions, 2007) 56. Intelligence?” Parachute #119 (Jul-Sep 2005) 47-67; as
19 Tomas’ writings and projects are presented well as the essays collected in Beyond the Image
on his website at http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/ Machine: A History of Visual Technologies (London:
dtomas/. Continuum, 2004).
20 David Tomas cited in Marc James Léger, “An 32 This relational model challenges many of
Interview with David Tomas Concerning His Recent the assumptions of, for example, a text like Jonathan
Collaboration with Rosika Desnoyers, Part I,” Etc #93 Crary’s Techniques of the Observer (1990). See David
(Jun-Aug 2011) 46. Tomas, A Blinding Flash of Light: Photography Between
21 David Tomas, “Programming and Repro- Disciplines and Media (Montreal: Dazibao, 2004) 30.
gramming Artworks: A Case of Painting and Practic- 33 See David Tomas, “Live rightly, die, die…
ing Conceptual and Media Art by Other Means,” Anatomy of an Exhibition,” in Live rightly, die, die…,
Intermédialités #13 (Spring 2009) 89-113. 7-26. See also Marc James Léger, “An Abnormal
22 See Rosika Desnoyers, A Genealogy of Berlin Tourist Itinerary: David Tomas’s ‘Live Rightly, Die,
Work: A History of Errors, PhD Dissertation, Concordia Die…,” Afterimage 40:2 (Sep-Oct 2012) 14-17.
University, 2012. 34 Tomas, “Dead End, Sophisticated Endgame
23 David Tomas, Live rightly, die, die … (Mon- Strategy, or a Third Way? Institutional Critique’s
treal: Dazibao, 2012); David Tomas, Escape Velocity: Academic Paradoxes and their Consequences,” Etc
Alternative Instruction Prototype for Playing the Knowledge #95 (Feb-May 2012) 27.
Game (Montreal: Wedge, 2012). 35 Tomas, “Artist: Identity in Mutation” in
24 The project was delayed by one year Escape Velocity, no page number.
because the large quantity of grey wool required to 36 See Ethan Cox, “PQ sets date for education
make the work had to be specially dyed to the artist’s summit, Quebec students continue fight against
specification. austerity agenda for education,” rabble.ca (November
25 David Tomas cited in Léger, “An Interview 10, 2010), available at http://rabble.ca/blogs/
with David Tomas Concerning His Recent Collabora- bloggers/ethan-cox/2012/11/pq-sets-date-educa-
tion with Rosika Desnoyers, Part I,” 43-44. tion-summit-quebec-students-continue-fight-agains.
26 David Tomas, “Millet Matrix II: Between
Commission and Collaboration,” unpublished docu-
ment, November 2012. Captions
27 Tomas, “Millet Matrix II: Between Commis- 1 Rosika Desnoyers, Millet Matrix (detail),
sion and Collaboration.” 2010-2012, needlepoint, wool on canvas, 63.5 x 79
28 See in particular Michel Foucault, cm. Courtesy of the artist.
“Nietzsche, Genealogy, History,” in Language, Counter- 2 Rosika Desnoyers, Millet Grid (2006). Com-
Memory, Practice: Selected Essays and Interviews, trans. prised of After Jean-François Millet, Gleaners (1857),
Donald F. Bouchard and Sherry Simon. (Ithaca: 2002–2003, needlepoint, wool on canvas, 30.5 x 24.7
Cornell University Press, 1977) 139-64, and Foucault, cm and 29.3 x 24.7 cm, and After Jean-François Millet,
“Two Lectures,” in Michael Kelly, ed. Critique and Gleaners (1857), 2006, needlepoint, wool on canvas,
Power: Recasting the Foucault/Habermas Debate (Cam- 30.7 x 23.9 cm and 29.9 x 23.8 cm. Courtesy of the
bridge: MIT Press, 1994) 17-46. See also Michel artist.
Foucault, “Of Other Spaces,” Diacritics 16:1 (Spring 3 Installation view of Millet Matrix (2010-2012)
1986) 22-7. in the exhibition Millet Matrix II, 2013, curated by
29 Desnoyers mentions in particular, A.F. David Tomas. Photo Marc James Léger.
Kendrick’s English Embroidery (1905) and Mrs Lowes’
Chats on Old Lace and Needlework (1908). Desnoyers, A
Genealogy of Berlin Work: A History of Errors.
21 Issue 19 / June 2013

Marc James Léger is an artist, writer and

educator living in Montreal. His essays in critical cultural
theory have been published in such places as Afterimage,
Art Journal, C Magazine, FUSE, One + One, Para-
chute, Canadian Journal of Film Studies/Revue
Canadienne d’Études Cinématograhique, Journal of
Aesthetics and Protest, Left Curve, RACAR and
Third Text. He is author of Brave New Avant Garde
and The Neoliberal Undead, and editor of the forthcom-
ing The Idea of the Avant Garde – And What It
Means Today.
22 Issue 19 / June 2013

.
Artur Zmijewski On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Curatorial and Artistic Practice

as Political Process:
. an inter-
view with Artur Zmijewski
by Anne Koskiluoma
and Anna Krystyna Trzaska .
Excerpt of telephone conversation with Artur Zmijewski, 9th of January 2013
Anne Koskiluoma/Anna Trzaska: In an inter- people, who really count each Euro and each Cent
view with the curator Pierre Bal-Blanc, for Flash Art in and think about how much they will spend to buy
2010, you state: “Maybe art is not as innocent as we lunch. You know, the majority of the citizens in
think.” You believe that art could help transform Berlin are not rich at all.
ruling orders based on hierarchy into a system based
on cooperation, participation an engagement of AK/AT: Compared to the rather specific group
individuals.2 of people that usually frequents art exhibitions,
beside the students. Do you think the Biennale was
In your curatorial practice directing the 7th
. attracting a broader audience also due to the fact of
Berlin Biennale, did you see new possibilities for this how it was discussed in the press?
important change emerging? What were the out- .
comes? AZ: I hope so. I mean a good example of an
. audience; we usually do not meet at exhibitions are
Artur Zmijewski: The greatest importance for the people from Palestinian minorities. At the Bien-
this Biennale was to check, whether art is able to nale there were two projects concerning Palestinian
create substantial results in political life, in social life, issues. The first one: The State of Palestine by Khaled
in our collective reality. I didn’t think about econom- Jarrar, stamping passports with the Palestinian
ical results, which of course art creates. I had been stamp. The second one: The Biggest Key in the World,
thinking about certain political processes that people the giant key, was dislocated from the AIDA refugee
are involved in or conduct. The question was, if art is camp and brought to the Biennale. Therefore, many
able to support actively such processes. That is, what Palestinians were coming and visiting the projects.
the story was about, then my curatorial effort was to Some were even guarding them, especially this key,
find and define these processes and to search for peo- which was situated in the courtyard of the Berliner
ple who support them using artistic tools. Kunstwerke. So, it was quite ordinary to observe Pal-
estinian women spending time next to the key, some
AK/AT: We read, that you managed to open up would even bring their kids along. Very unusual, let‘s
the Biennale for a different kind of public. For say, very well visible people were present mainly
instance by deciding to abolish admission charges. because of this symbol, which was so important to them.
Could you tell us, if this opening towards the
citizens of Berlin was noticeable during the event? Did AK/AT: The 7th Berlin Biennale gathered enor-
the people use the opportunity by visiting the differ- mous attention from the day you were announced as
ent exhibition sites, maybe even various times? the curator. How did you react to this?
. .
AZ: Probably people who usually have no AZ: The “enormous attention” itself was not of
money to buy tickets came this time. Students and interest to me, but the potential to introduce certain
23 Issue 19 / June 2013

.
ideas to the people. I was focused on the formulation of artists appears in form of an exception; a beautiful
of the issue of the Biennale, which was from the very exception from a horrible, unchangeable reality. In
beginning a kind of political substance that is gener- other words, the prevailing art ideology is very dom-
ated by art and culture in general. Later on when our inant. If you represent such an ideology, how can you
work advanced, I realized what was very unique understand an art event which is driven by different
about this situation. It was the fact that I somehow wishes and by substantial political ambitions? An
“had” the institution, that I had access to the internal event that is set out to work as processes and where
life of the institution. To the big secret of art indus- culture is understood as a kind of locally defined
try, which is strongly institutionalized. policy – goal oriented, effective and creating conse-
quences in human reality. The 7th Berlin Biennale
Now I had the possibility to use the institu- was occupying people who transform their political
tion, not in artistic terms, but in a political way. The ambitions into practice, who are not afraid of work-
state is composed of its institutions. The culture ing collectively, who create not fetishes but certain
sector, including its institutions is part of the state. In tools useful in this reality. No paradoxes, rather
this sense, we had access to the state itself. Metaphor- activism and art journalism – and purely defined
ically speaking, we had access to the state logic which goals – no questions.
is represented by administration logic, vertical power
structure, oppressive execution of internal rules and For example, we were working with Marina
paragraphs of the law, loyalty dilemmas and so on. Naprushkina, a Belarussian artist and member of the
Belarussian opposition. She lives in Berlin and her
goal is to liberate Belarus. By the time we met,
Marina was working on a large publishing project.
She was editing a newspaper in form of a cartoon
book for the Belarussian people. So, she was smug-
gling the freedom of speech and a vision of the future
to Belarus – different from the turbo-capitalism and
different from the way of life called “consumption”.
We offered her money from the budget of the Bien-
nale and proposed to treat her on-going work as a
Biennale project, in order to secure the continuity of
1
it. The result we expected was the free circulation of
information in Belarus, a country that is fully con-
AK/AT: You received full praise for creating a trolled by a dictator and his corrupted network; to
sphere for discourse and reflection. At the same time publish a free magazine in a police country. We can
there were strong reactions from behalf of the art call it art, because Marina is an artist, but at the same
scene and also some scandalising in the press. Do you time it is pure politics.
think they felt attacked to a certain extent or even
unmasked? Other artists, with the vision of art that is
. specifically based on this individual approach and
AZ: Media or art critics write comments from competition, resulting in the production of strange
a certain position. They usually understand art as a fetishist objects, came looking for results of our
spectacle, as an activity conducted by individuals research and claimed that it failed. And exactly, our
who produce fetishes, which corrupt peoples’ fanta- Biennale failed the fetishist objects! There were no
sies and emotions. The art object is constructed as a artist celebrities, no individuals. Even Olafur Elias-
paradox or as a question without answer. son, who is known for his object based work, pro-
posed a Biennale project in close cooperation with a
The art world is based on endless competition, professional politician. Eliasson, who is perfect in
which reduces relations between artists and cultural constructing light objects, who is perfect in using
workers and fights for economical and symbolical advanced technologies to create installations, this
profits. Of course art can be concerned with serious time was just working with a person from the politi-
problems, like poverty or lack of democracy, but this cal world. No material presentation, just an exchange
discourse produces just questions and doubts. The of concepts and experiences between two worlds:
knowledge educed out of it, hardly ever get’s trans- The world of professional art and the world of pro-
formed into political practice. The social engagement fessional politics. Two different languages started to
24 Issue 19 / June 2013

.
be negotiated and the Biennale initiated this process of Martin Zet‘s campaign Deutschland,
instance. schafft es ab! against Thilo Sarrazin‘s book Deutsch-
land schafft sich ab4 , resulted exactly with the same.
AK/AT: It is interesting that you decided to Martin Zet proposed to reduce the number of copies
include your own work Berek (1999), this caused quite of this racist book, that were available on the market
a stir within the art scene. Did you expect to face by asking people to send it to Kunstwerke, in order
criticism for it‘s inclusion? to make an art work out of the collected copies.
. Someone compared this collecting action with the
AZ: The film Berek was included, because it book burning by the Nazis. As a result for his pro-
had been excluded from a show at the Martin-Gro- posal Martin was berated half a Nazi, an emblem of
pius-Bau in Berlin in 20113. So, if the people had no evil. Not Thilo Sarrazin. We could observe how the
chance to watch it in one Berlin based art institution, access to internal German politics was controlled by
they should get the opportunity to watch it at the German fear-slogans. Just one association with the
Kunstwerke. In this sense my decision was a reaction action on Bebel Platz in 1938 activated a media hys-
to an act of censorship. So, in fact not the specific art teria, as a result the internal German politics and the
work was exhibited, but the act of resistance, the internal debate became like a fortress.
reaction itself. This kind of censorship shouldn‘t take
place, especially not in Berlin. I was blamed for being AK/AT: The 7th Berlin Biennale closed in July
an anti-Semitic, while I was trying to deal with the 2012. There must be a huge evaluation process in the
cruel history for which in fact the Germans are wake of such a large project. What is your personal
responsible. In some perverted way I was trans- aftermath or conclusion?
formed into half a Nazi. Later I realized that it was a .
strategy of, let’s say, reversed attack. And this was AZ: You have to remember about one thing that
not the only incident that we faced. The preparation I already said. What was unique about this situation
25 Issue 19 / June 2013

.
as a curator, was to somehow “have” the institution. is always Stalin, or Leni Riefenstahl. Our intention
Everything we did at the Biennale was done because was not about confronting people with completely
we controlled the power of the institution. We decided. new ideas, but to use the old idea and check it again.
Our aim was to forget about artistic autonomy, to
I cannot really repeat this. At the moment as transform such an idea into a spectrum of substantial
an artist I cannot do the same, because I’m weak. It projects; a proposal for substantial transformations.
depends on the institutions, if they give me a budget If we want to be involved in political processes with
for production, if they invite me or not. As a curator our work of art, how can we keep autonomy? If we
I had the opportunity to experience this absolutely want to take part in the on going transformation of
powerful and unique situation and make use of it. Of society, how can we keep distance to it? So, the main
course many people who work as professional cura- idea behind the Biennale was to join society. Art and
tors, to them it’s daily routine. But I don‘t know if the artists should join society – really forget about the
majority of them are aware of the power they have distance to it.
and what they can do with it.
AK/AT: After having the opportunity of curat-
We were trying to examine what we can do, ing the Berlin Biennale, has it also changed your rela-
how we can employ the institution of culture in a tionship towards curators; since you now have all this
different way. We used this power to support artists background information through your own experi-
who operate in terms of politics. ences?
.
AK/AT: Speaking of artistic authorship, in your AZ: It can’t change my relationship to them. I
manifesto The Applied Social Arts you suggest that art depend on them. But in some cases I know what
could try and restore the original meanings of the kind of power they have. I think an alternative use of
terms: Autonomy, originality, opaqueness. “Autonomy this power is blocked by the dominant ideology of
then, would mean the right to choose a sphere of art and culture – that art and culture are somehow
freedom, instead of being an extreme personality for nothing and never have a political aim.
trait. Originality would be a sign of creativity and not
novelty at all costs. Opaqueness would be indicative AK/AT: Is that the notion of the “end of art”?
of the difficulty and density of a message and not it‘s .
inability to communicate.”5 AZ: No, I don‘t think it‘s the end. I believe in
art. It is a great tool, which activates and supports
How important is artistic authorship to you as human creativity. I think it could happen that art and
an artist? Do you see it as a form of self-proclaimed culture create real changes. There are very good
immunity while navigating all these social artistic examples of artistic actions, which transform reality.
structures? We are wondering what is your own posi-
tion as an artist? For instance Antanas Mockus6, who is the son
. of a Lithuanian sculptor, has been creating long-term
AZ: I was blamed many times for not being social projects, supported and even initiated by artis-
original or innovative enough. Usually I answer, that tic actions, with no fear. He‘s a mathematician and
there are many other artists who are original and philosopher who quit his job at the Colombian Uni-
create novelty. Why do we need new proposals again versity to run for mayor of Bogota. He was using art
and again, if we aren‘t able to consume what has been strategies in political work.
already proposed? What I‘m saying in the essay is,
that we should stop for a moment and think about Among the actions that he organized was for
what is already on the table and how we can use it, instance this gun exchange, where people could
instead of looking constantly for something new. come and exchange their guns for toys. I don‘t know
how many guns they collected, but it was a lot. They
For the Biennale I didn‘t invent the idea of collected a significant number of guns. I think this an
useful art, I didn‘t invent the idea of political art or example that can be universalized. I heard lately of a
artists involved in political processes. It was done similar action in Mexico, this time for kids. The
before, years ago. But this idea has been discredited children could come and exchange their toy guns for
so many times. People say it‘s dangerous, because it other toys, puppets, balls, and so on. These actions
reminds them of Stalin, Lenin, Speer, and so on. The really transform reality on a very basic level. Less
counterpoint in these discussions about political art guns – Less killing!
26 Issue 19 / June 2013

.
Notes .
1 FORGET FEAR, ed. by Artur Zmijewski &
Joanna Warsza, Köln 2012, Buchhandlung Walther
König
2 Flash Art, No. 272 May-June 2010, Pierre
Bal-Blanc:
. In and out of CAC, Interview by Artur
Zmijewski
3 Tür an Tür – 1000 Jahre deutsch-polnische
Nachbarschaft / September 2011- January 2012
Martin-Gropius-Bau
4 Deutschland schafft sich ab, Thilo Sarrazin 2010
DVA Verlag München
5 APPLIED SOCIAL ARTS Artur Zmijewski,
3
kryttyka polityczna 2007
6 Knowledge empowers people. If people know the
rules, and are sensitized by art, humour, and creativity, they
are much more likely to accept chang. Antanas Mockus .
Academic turns city into a social experiment, Maria
Cristina Caballero, Harvard gazette, March 11, 2004
Captions
1
. Draftsmens Congress, 2012, Photo credit:
Artur Zmijewski
2 State of Palestine, 2012, Photo credit:
Kahled Jarrar
3
. The Key of Return, 2012, Photo credit:
Artur Zmijewski
.
Artur Zmijewski was born in 1966 in Warsaw,
Poland, where he studied sculpture under Grzegor
. Kowalski
at the Academy of Arts from 1990–1995. Zmijewski‘s film
and video work is highly recognized as an important artis-
tic contribution. Best known for its uncompromising stud-
ies on the human nature, monitoring sociopolitical struc-
tures from an angle of being witness to psychologically
violent acts. His work has been displayed in numerous
international
. solo and group exhibitions. In 2005 Artur
Zmijewski represented Poland
. at the 51st Biennale di
Venezia. In 2012 Artur Zmijewski curated the 7th Berlin
Biennale.
27 Issue 19 / June 2013

Kristina Lee Podesva On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Kristina Lee Podesva

interviewed by Sophia Ribeiro
This interview offers a reflection on authorships’ possible disappearance in the
Art-Pedagogical Field(s) and transects this disappearance with the research practice of
Kristina Podesva by looking specifically at the colourschool (2006/7) project as well as
her editorship of Fillip, a contemporary art magazine based in Vancouver, Canada. Taking
as a point of departure the varied practices of Kristina Podesva, the interview explores a
diversity of questions, and possibilities for reflecting on the importance of authorship, its
circulations (infusions, confusions, diffusions) within her artistic and curatorial practice in
relation to historical societal, political, economical, and cultural contexts.
Sophia Ribeiro: colourschool was founded in reference for exploratory, experimental, and multi-
2006 when you were an MFA student at the Univer- disciplinary approaches to knowledge production; a
sity of British Columbia, with interest in the possibili- virtual space for the communication and distribution
ties of post-studio projects, participatory practices of ideas.”2 These are some of the concerns and char-
and economic exchange1. Could you give some more acteristics, which you have observed in the Copenha-
background insights about colourschool project? gen Free University. Which other influences and/or
additional aims have you considered through your
Kristina Lee Podesva: My initial motivation in colourschool research? Six years have passed since the
developing the colourschool project was to work with beginning of the project, is it still active? What has
phenomena that have no definite, clear, or concrete changed?
meaning in order to showcase the highly contingent
nature of knowledge, identity, and art. Colour was a KLP: colourschool had a lifespan of two aca-
symbol, but also a very complicated philosophical demic years. Its first run occurred from 2006 to 2007
subject that necessitates collaborative signification. at the University of British Columbia. Its second run
Knowledge, identity, and art also involve collabora- was from 2007 to 2008 at Emily Carr Institute of Art
tive signification, but they are not understood or and Design (now called Emily Carr University). Dur-
represented in such a complex manner. Colour and ing the first run, I was an MFA student at UBC and
School brought these concepts together in a situation located colourschool in the art studio I was given
that did not have a social script already written. As a while enrolled in the MFA program. Since I consid-
result, when participants came to colourschool there ered my practice a post-studio one, it did not make
were no set rules or expectations and therefore eve- sense to me to do most of my work on a computer at
ryone had to create a meaning for themselves within home and not use the space I had at my disposal. At
the context they found themselves in, which, of the time, I noticed that space at the university and in
course, remained somewhat open, but also some- the city of Vancouver was very valuable. Rents were
what bounded by the setting of the university, the high and continue to be. Buildings on the UBC cam-
context of a visual art studio, and the loose parame- pus offered corporations laboratories and other
ters set by the presenters during each session, which facilities for rent. A large percentage of the apart-
were communicated via the colourschool website and ments and condominiums on the campus were for
a series of postcards that advertised the programs a sale not to students, faculty, and staff as affordable
month at a time. housing, but as moneymaking vehicles for the uni-
versity. In this situation, where the university was a
SR: “A school structure that operates as a social real estate developer, corporate client and host, it was
medium; a post-hierarchical learning environment clear that the institution was instrumentalising
where there are no teachers, just co-participants; a knowledge and that I needed to detour that process
28 Issue 19 / June 2013

even if on a small scale. So, I decided to re-confer the address. I think therefore that each program created
resources I had available to me as a student (e.g., new publics.
space, internet access, books, information, and so
on) to others within the university, but also to any- SR: What do you consider to be positive and
one else who might take an interest outside of the negative angles of creating project archives?
university. I wanted to make a space in which knowl-
edge and learning were not easily instrumentalised. KLP: First, I should state that the archival and
The suspension of this process by the institution and documentation aspects of the project cannot really
the hierarchies and orders inherent in the classroom express nor supplant the experiences that took place
were some of my chief aims, but equally I would say in real time. So, why have an archive at all? I suppose
that I wanted a space to challenge others and myself that the archive was initially created (in its online
with ontological questions about art, subjectivity, and iteration) as a way to get information out to people
colour. What all of these desires share, I think, was a who might want to attend future events. This was the
frustration with certitude and authority. primary motivation. Later, it did serve as a record of
what happened at colourschool so that others, if
After the second run at Emily Carr, I have to inspired, could create their own free schools no
admit that I was exhausted because colourschool matter how unusual the area of inquiry. I think that
depended too much on me to run it. It is a failure in the documentation of a project should be able to live
a way of the project since it would have been better on as its own entity not merely as a record of some-
to create a framework that others could use and thing that already happened. If it can be vital as a
manage. The Public School template (http://thepub- document beyond the moment it records, then I
licschool.org/) has created such a framework. would be interested in producing an archival project.
But, as you can see, it’s also possible to create an
SR: According to Rudolf Frieling, “can an art- accidental archive, as I did with the colourschool
work include not only friends and peers, but also an website. Overall, I’m torn on this question of
undefined group of participants? How might the archives. I think it’s critical to activate them in a way
artist address a larger public without becoming sim- that is not devitalized.
plistic, didactic, or compromised?”3 With colourschool
you made it possible for all kinds of participants to be SR: In the essay, “The Artist as Producer in
involved in the process, allowing the boundaries Times of Crisis”, Okwui Enwezor identifies and
between artist and viewer to be crossed4. In which describes two types of ‘collective formations and
ways have you succeeded to address to an ‘all’ encom- collaborative practices’5. As an artist, editor, curator
passing public? and writer, frequently creating, questioning, sharing
exposing and analysing individual and shared prac-
KLP: I’m not sure that I made it possible that tices, through written language and oral speech,
all participants were involved in the process. What I which is your view in relation to Enwezor’s collective
did was create a framework through which people and collaborative dis-connections?
could share with one another whether it was sharing
a subject that they had a lot of knowledge about or a KLP: I have to admit that I am not familiar
performance or an exploration of an idea that they with Enwezor’s thoughts on the distinction between
had no prior knowledge of. Thus, if participants collectivity and collaboration, so I am not sure that I
wanted to be involved, they came by their choice. For can respond to this quotation without the context to
instance, I invited presenters to put on a program of which it belongs. I can say though that my choice to
their own design that related to colour in some way. participate in the field in a variety of ways is similar
And, each event drew its own audiences. Sometimes to how I think about artistic media—an artist must
colourschool had regular attendees, but at other times choose the best method of expression for an idea.
there were people who came for a single event only. I The method does not precede the idea. Moreover, I
would invoke here the words of Michael Warner who see all of these roles as interrelated rather than sepa-
states in Publics and Counterpublics (2005) that, rate. I take a cue here from the artist Luis Camnitzer.
among other things, publics are defined by whom In Fillip 17, there is a review of an exhibition of his
they address. Moreover, that subcultures and identi- that took place in Vancouver, Canada in 2011. The
ties develop in this process of address. So, as soon as reviewer at one point quotes Camnitzer as saying the
one utters or makes something, it is for someone. It following: “There are some problems that are best
calls a public into being by its form and act of resolved in a photograph, there are others that are
29 Issue 19 / June 2013

best resolved in a discussion; others require a letter, the importance of the ‘Education as Art’ instead of
because the people are further away, and then you ‘Education of Art’?
have to think of what is the best form: by mail if it’s
private, or trying to publish it in a journal if it’s not KLP: I do believe that there are signs that a
private. That’s how all the things you mentioned shift has occurred in the relationship between the
come together, but the nucleus that organizes it is the exhibitions, public programs, and education depart-
other part, which is really what counts. It is critical ments at museums. These departmental distinctions
questioning and the search of alternative orders that are breaking down in some ways at certain institu-
defines art in the best sense.” This sums up best why I tions. And with the dissolution of such boundaries,
choose to work in so may different registers, to me, it we have seen the emergence of certain trends such as
is also the critical questioning and the search of “New Institutionalism” in which museums have
alternative order that I’m interested in. staged educational programs and events that spectac-
ularise knowledge, which looks a lot like the instru-
mentalisation of knowledge that takes place in the
contemporary university. Interestingly, this spectacle
does not seem to trouble many in the art world as
much as a fear that programs and ephemeral art
events might render exhibitions and material art
objects less important. I find this fear ironic since
museums were founded as institutions that educate
the public. So, in a sense, to speak of an educational
turn within museums does not really make sense
since education has been fundamental since their
very founding. I wish instead that we might ponder
more critically how the museum can put into prac-
tice a new kind of educational imperative that is not
instrumental or spectacular.
“What most urgently needs to be done is to

further expand the space of art by developing new
circulation networks through which art can encoun-
ter its publics – through education, publication,
dissemination, and so forth – rather than perpetuate
existing institutions of art and their agents at the
expense of the agency of artists by immortalizing the
exhibition as art’s only possible, ultimate destina-
1
tion.”7
SR: In 2007 you wrote the essay “A Pedagogical SR: In November 2011 Fillip and Artspeak pre-
Turn: Brief Notes on Education as Art” for Fillip, the sented a three-day forum in Vancouver under the title
contemporary art magazine from Vancouver, Canada Intangible Economies. What are some aspects presented
for which you still work as editor. In the essay you in the forum, which you think relevant to and comple-
make reference to one of the main participatory art ment further the un-folding reflections about curato-
contributors, the German artist Joseph Beuys, who rial and artistic authorship?
believed “in the creative capacity of every individual to
shape society through participation in cultural, politi- KLP: New circulation networks other than the
cal, and economic life”6. All around the world under exhibition should be available to art. At the same
direct influence of globalized structures, there are time, I think artists should be able to circulate in
public and private institutions, which defend ways, spaces other than museums and galleries. And, in
which are “good” or “bad” to learn about Art and on fact, they have been doing so for a long time, at least
how to become a professional with success in the since the 1960s in North America. I cannot speak too
field. Since this essay how do you consider educators, much about Intangible Economies as another editor
students, artists, curators linked to institutions and/or organized that forum. I can speak about the three-
self-organised, are changing their sensibility towards day conference Institutions by Artists that I organized
30 Issue 19 / June 2013

with many others in Vancouver during the middle of a certain body of knowledge, then we are all the
October 20128. For that conference, I was very inter- better for it. I’m much more attracted to an interrog-
ested in restoring agency to artists since the dis- ative mode of being rather than a declarative one. I
course of art tends to focus on art, as an abstraction, wrote about this preference in my text for Judgment
rather than artists or curators or critics who are the and Contemporary Art Criticism entitled “Between
agents in this field. By conceptualizing a program the Question Mark and the Comma.”
that surveyed institutions by artists, my hope was to
first provide evidence that artists have already been
operating outside of the museum and gallery as Notes
institutions through various artist-run initiatives. 1 Michael Birchall, “On Kristina Lee Podesva’s
The relationship between artist and institution is not Colour School”, C Magazine, 2008, p.16.
always antagonistic, in fact, artists have created insti- 2 Kristina L. Podesva. 2007. “A Pedagogical
tutions as compelling alternatives to existing ones, Turn: Brief Notes on Education as Art”. Fillip.
whether museum, school, institute, or other formation. Accessed December 11, 2012. http://fillip.ca/
content/a-pedagogical-turn.
SR: According to Deleuze, “how else can one 3 Rudolf Frieling. “The Art of Participation.
write but of those things which one doesn’t know, or 1950 to Now”. London: Thames & Hudson San
knows badly? It is precisely there that we imagine Francisco Museum of Modern Art. 2008, p. 46.
having something to say. We write only at the fron- 4 Michael Birchall, “On Kristina Lee Podesva’s
tiers of our knowledge, at the border, which separates Colour School”, C Magazine. 2008, p. 16.
our knowledge from our ignorance and transforms 5 Enwezor Okwui. 2004. “The Artist as
the one into the other. Only in this manner are we Producer in Times of Crisis”. 16Beaver. Accessed
resolved to write. Perhaps writing has a relation to October 15, 2012. http://www.16beavergroup.org/
silence.”9 What you wrote yesterday might not sound mtarchive/archives/000839.php.
relevant today, as it is always exposed to the possibil- 6 Joseph Beuys cited in Kristina L. Podesva.
ity for not being understood. In which ways do you 2007. “A Pedagogical Turn: Brief Notes on Education
relate to silence when writing alone and in a group? as Art”. Fillip. Accessed December 11, 2012. http://
What is your level of acceptance to the fact that fillip.ca/content/a-pedagogical-turn.
knowledge is every day provoked by uncontrollable, 7 Anton Vidokle. 2010. “Art Without Artists”.
unknown, unexpected societal movements? e-flux Journal. Accessed January 8, 2013. http://
www.e-flux.com/journal/art-without-artists/.
8 See http://arcpost.ca/conference for more
details.
9 Gilles Deleuze. “Deleuze Difference and
Repetition”. 2nd ed. Translated by Paul Patton.
London: Continuum. 2004, p. xx.
Captions
1 colourschool library, 2006–2008 photo:
Lauren Scott
2 colourschool, 2006–2008
3 colourschool interior (UBC), 2006–2008
2
photo: Lauren Scott
KLP: I don’t believe in writing or any other

form of knowledge as being finite or resolved. Rather,
I think all knowledge must be open to revision, sup-
plementation, and refutation even. I’m happy with
that lack of certainty, so I am comfortable with being
wrong or in error. There is still value in grappling
with something with the information and tools and
time and space available. When more information
and variables change the significance or relevance of
31 Issue 19 / June 2013

Kristina Lee Podesva (CA/USA) is a San Fran-

cisco-based artist, writer, and editor of Fillip. She founded
Colourschool (2006–2008), a free school dedicated to
the speculative and collaborative research of five colours;
white, black, red, yellow, and brown. The inaugural artist in
residence at the Langara Centre for Art in Public Spaces.
Her artwork and writing have appeared in Canada, the
United States, and Europe including Darling Foundry
(Montreal), Museum of Contemporary Art (Denver), No
Soul for Sale at the Tate (London), Dorsky Gallery (Long
Island City, NY). Published in art magazines Fillip and
Bidoun, in books and catalogues such as Turn Off the
Sun (forthcoming), Waking Up from the Nightmare of
Participation, Judgment and Contemporary Art
Criticism, and Komma (after Dalton Trumbo’s Johnny
Got His Gun). Kristina Lee Podesva is also co-editor of
publications such as Institutions by Artists: Volume 1
and 100% Vancouver.
32 Issue 19 / June 2013

Mary Jane Jacob On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Public Art: Consequences

of a Gesture1? An Interview
with Mary Jane Jacob
by Monika Molnár
and Tanja Trampe
It was not to forsake the viewer, who can be
moved personally in front of a work of art. Before I
arrived at the new-public-art stand of Culture in
Action, which we will get to in a moment, I had
sought out the work of artists whose personal social
engagement could prompt a response on the part of
the audience. There was the drama of war and com-
munist oppression or the Holocaust in undertaking
the first US retrospectives of Magdalena Abakanow-
icz and Christian Boltanski respectively, the reimag-
ining of one’s home and history in the four-site show
of Jannis Kounellis in Chicago and the eighteen
1
installations that constituted a meditation on slavery
in Charleston, South Carolina. But I felt to rethink
the relationship to audience we needed to make a
AUTHORSHIP: ART(WORK) – ARTIST – leap to a different edge of practice, and maybe then,
AUDIENCE. How would you describe after some assumptions were looked at anew, we
the relationship between the three might be able to come back and really value conven-
above-mentioned participants? tional gallery experiences, too.
Initially I thought this was a jump forward,

Mary Jane Jacob: Thank you for this trio, but seizing a new territory and shifting the discourse.
it wasn’t always that way. The artist and the artwork: But over time I came to find that I was not so much
that’s the duo of commerce that dominated in the art doing something new as perhaps rehabilitating some
world I entered, one overshadowed by New York as a old ways. This included the mission of early 20th-cen-
center for showing and sales, an art world very much tury American thinker John Dewey and museum
limited to the US. I’d like to think I did some work to directors of that era who were in part influenced by
change that. him to make museum spaces for ‘the people’. Their
democratic notions were given another thrust with
One change was putting audience into this the freedom movements of the 1960s and 1970s. All
equation. To consider the fullness of this dimension this set the scene for my professional arrival, but it
was to enable audience as a participant in making the was only later that I draw a through-line.
work with progressive contemporary artists—not
community arts, art therapy, or the like—but actual- We can say it was the hubris of youth to think
izing the audience as co-author and involving them I was working in a new way; we might see it as a
in ways that were more open and generous. desire to be a part of art’s avant-garde. But I think I
33 Issue 19 / June 2013

had to experience the relationship of art-artist-audi- just discussed. Curators can be more nimble where
ence for myself—first as an audience member, for a institutions are encumbered, though certainly insti-
time as an art maker, and then arrive at being a cura- tutions have resources that secure their place in the
tor. I needed my own examples, my experiences and power structure. But what curators bring to the equa-
revelations to know the meaning from the inside out. tion is care. It’s right there in the root of the word:
Then later, it was a validation to read Dewey’s ideas cura.
about how the artist makes the artwork only halfway
with the viewer completing it, and how he believed I’ve just gone back to a classic book I never
that the artwork lives only in our experience of it. read before, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mainte-
nance by Robert M. Pirsig3. The author talks about
Artwork-artist-audience is an interdependent what makes work an art: care. He distinguishes
trilogy. What’s left out of this equation is the institu- between being involved and being a spectator. This
tion. Having started in museums, I saw how they can has something to say to the tired audience paradigm
offer the art experience, but also be a distraction or of participant vs. spectator and can offer greater
destructive to experience. There was the greater depth of meaning. If we think about participants as
corporatization of museums as fundraising and an audience that is involved, that put care into what
marketing machines (what has been called the they are doing—even if sitting in a theater seat or
Guggenheim Effect). As I left museums in 1990 the walking through a gallery—then we see that there
‘institutional critique’ of traditional modes of display are many ways of engaging art. Interacting in some
was on the rise. So the setting was there for another physical, visible participation is only one.
way of working.
Caring, this engaged audience functions in a
But I didn’t make this shift out of museums for way parallel to the artist who is invested in the mak-
any theoretical reason. It was my lived-experience of ing of the artwork. For Dewey this connection of
curatorial practice within the business of museums, artist-to-audience was so fundamental that he said:
and of the art experience that was growing increas- “To some degree we become artists ourselves”4.
ingly secondary. I hoped to regain this (in part for Meanwhile Pirsig ties caring to quality, saying: “A
myself) by developing artists’ projects in lived spaces person who sees Quality and feels it as he works is a
[not so much working in ‘public space’, as I was never person who cares”. So we might think about the
a public art administrator on a governmental or experience of art, what Dewey called “an experience
corporate level], I found art could be realized in worthwhile as an experience”, to be an experience of
remarkable ways working in the spaces where people quality.
lives played out. There, art could have meaning, and
could matter to anyone because what the artist and
audience cared about were the same. We look back
now at this as ‘site-specific’ or ‘community based’, or
‘socially engaged art practice’, but for me it wasn’t
about naming a movement; it was necessary to relo-
cate the relation of art to the place and people, as it
had always been from time immemorial.
For me to realize this relationship of artwork-

artist-audience, I had to get out of the museum, get
the institution out of the way. The curator is not part
2
of this series of words either, but I do think we can
play a useful role.
This caring has a lot to do with curating. In
The artist is present2 is beyond all ques- fact, as I said, caring is at the essence of the curatorial
tions a quality characteristic. What function. Sometimes the curatorial role is assertive,
happens if we replace this term by ‘The taking control or challenging other protagonists,
curator is present’? including artists and audiences, to take action; some-
times it’s more facilitating or, to use Pirsig’s meta-
MJJ: So I will speak to the need for the cura- phor, it’s good maintenance. But usually it’s a mix of
tor’s presence, even though left out of the list we have all this. Curating done well, with care, is important to
34 Issue 19 / June 2013

the functioning of art. And I think the expansion we What exhibitions also do is acknowledge the
have seen in recent decades, the greater and more place of the audience in the making of art as experi-
nuanced ways of curating, has developed in response ence. The audience’s essential role in art is made
to a demonstrated need. manifest there. Here we see how art happens. This
doesn’t happen for each of us with every work of art,
CURATORIAL PRACTICE: EXHIBITION – but those that give us pause (and this can be positive
ELEMENT – EXPERIENCE. What is the or negative at the moment we see it, and can change
letter ‘e’ telling you: exhibition, element or grow over time) can play a role in our lives. That’s
or experience...? why I make exhibitions.
Monika Molnár/Tanja Trampe: We intend to How do you describe the main steps in
force the direction on the influences and the results, developing curatorial projects? Would
if any (for example: exhibition, element and experi- you like to open your curator’s toolkit
ence). How can the curator, the artist, and the audi- and show to us your most important
ence benefit from ‘results’, if any? How are we able to tools and describe them briefly?
declare a result? We learned from your work, that
there are lots of influences. The audience can some- MJJ: There are steps but they are not so linear,
how evaluate the artist, the curator can use the audi- not so clearly progressive even though necessary to
ence’s experiences for future ideas, and the artist can the process. For me, it starts with something that I
be inspired through the outcomes and echoes from have questions about, that I don’t understand fully.
the audience. We are interested on these synergies: It starts, too, with an irritant: something that gets in
depth and size, strong or slight, or neutral influence as the way of something I care about or value.
status quo or snapshot?
The next step always involves sharing these
MJJ: I’ve been thinking about why we have questions with others who care to be in the conversa-
exhibitions. What does an exhibition do that looking tion and might illuminate the way, and this usually
at artworks does not accomplish? If Dewey claimed starts with talking to artists. This was not really pos-
that art is the experience, not the work or object of sible when I worked in museums where the process
art, what experiences do exhibitions afford? What was more protected and closed, institutionalized and
elements can we point to? sequestered. This sharing comes in the form of one-
to-one meetings, small group or large for conven-
I guess I would say that the exhibition is a tions, through writing emails or essays…there are
place where art can do its work. In exhibitions artists many ways and I always end up using several with
meet an audience, while having another way to expe- any given project. In fact, they become the modes of
rience their own art, so they become the audience, the project itself. I would not call them ‘para-curato-
too. In an exhibition the audience gains access to art. rial’, as does Maria Lind, because I think they are
While we think of this as access to the mind of the fundamentally curatorial activities and because I do
artist, the exhibition is a vehicle by which we can not subscribe to a hierarchy by which the exhibition
access our own mind. With such potential, the job is at the apex; it, too might be a step in a process on
the curator does matters. the way to something else, even if that thing wasn’t
imagined at the outset.
For the curator, all the elements of the exhibi- But what is critical here is to stay open and let
tion—I mean ALL, from the practical and mundane the process lead your intuitions, emotions, and ideas.
to the intellectual, visible and invisible aspects— I follow this messy, circuitous path, taking care to
affect the art experience, hence the artwork. With listen to the process and see where it leads. I try to
this in mind, the curator’s job is connected to those steer or test rather then lead the process. It takes time
of everyone else’s in the making; the curator needs to to be with a question. It is an organic process of
employ a smart and critical outlook, as well as an enacting questions out loud and with others, positing
aesthetic or tasteful eye. Reflecting on what was next steps, but changing them fluidly, sometimes
accomplished, how others reacted, the curator, like instantaneously. So I need very patience, personally
anyone doing a job they care about, is invested in an grounded, caring collaborators and staff who are not
ongoing process that we can call a life’s work. so invested in their ideas or a fixed plan, but excited
about where a process can go and comfortable with
the uncertainty of not knowing the way.
35 Issue 19 / June 2013

An example of this kind of process is charted

in the introductory chapter of a recent book Chicago
Makes Modern: How Creative Minds Changed Soci-
ety5. In it I recount how questions about modernism
today led us to think about questions of human and
social development, about events in Chicago, to
support the creation of projects by artists, designers,
and architects who played with these ideas, to under-
take many public programs, and to organize three
exhibitions. Finally this book resulted but it does not
document the process or the shows; it emerged as a
3
work unto itself. Yet we didn’t see this at the outset;
to get there is to be engaged throughout the whole
process. Like artists, like anyone doing what they What are the major impacts for a cura-
care about and are invested in, the curator lives the tor seen from your perspective? Do we
process. have main drivers? You described your
recommendations to exhibition makers:
MM/TT: Taking care of the uncertainty and Do we need to follow them strictly?
trying to keep it seems to be very topical within pre-
sent curatorial processes: You describe a ‘mind of MJJ: In this process, the main—perhaps only
don’t-know’ and the ‘empty mind’ as an important driver that matters—is the problem: that swampy ter-
condition for your work. Carolyn Christov Bakargiev rain of questions on a subject. The process begins
said that the word ‘maybe’ was the essence of her murky with the problem not clearly determined, but
concept for last year’s documenta13. Could you I do not wait until I have sorted it out and have the
please go one step deeper and tell us how you organ- precise thesis. Getting there is part of the exhibition-
ize yourself to keep the possibilities to play with dur- making process. And for me this is always a shared
ing the whole developing process? Further: would you process of research, collaborative more or less,
say that you mostly succeed? On your website we can among many persons. I have to hear others and I
found a list in eight steps, a kind of a recipe for exhibi- absolutely have to hear what the process has to say.
tion makers. Can you tell us more about this recom-
mendation? MM/TT: We would like to take the thread
again on the point of listening to the process: Asked
MJJ: These lived processes are a little like in 2003 by the artist group World Question Center
describing wind: every time is different and you learn (Reloaded) you formulated the following question as
from experience guided by what you value. There is the most important on that moment: “How can we
no formula, so I even hesitate to make what the list I truly relocate the nature of art to face and to facilitate
wrote a few years ago, and which you found and our need for human communication, human connec-
include here seem like the answer, but, ok, it’s a start. tion?” Would you say that meanwhile—one decade
I have altered some of the points: later—this question has been answered? Or would you
1. Locate the reason why you are doing an even modify the question? If yes, in which direction
exhibition, the aim would you do it?
2. Let art lead to you
3. Have partners in the exploration MJJ: I still think that art as communication
4. Imagine opportunities and connection between people is something I strive
5. Openly venture ideas to achieve because art, uniquely, can do that; it is a
6. Listen to artists definition of art, what it does. So it is not something
7. Listen to audiences solved, but it is always a goal.
8. Care about the process
9. Trust the process PUBLIC ART: IT’S HISTORY AND FUTURE
10. Trust that art will make things happen. It’s been 20 years since you curated
“Culture in Action” in the city of Chicago.
Couldn’t you summarize the most
important shifts within the public art
field since then?
36 Issue 19 / June 2013

MJJ: Culture in Action started the same way: Notes

with a morass of questions about art in public space. 1 Daniel J. Martinez’ work “Consequences of a
It depended on artists’ voices first, and each who Gesture” (1993), was one of the events organized as
participated in the show shaped where I took it. I had part of “Culture in Action” in Chicago (1991-95), an
my motivating irritants, too: bad public art, too ambitious series of public projects aimed at a radical
much public art, the use of public funds to build redefinition of “public art.” It took the form of a
artworks that were inert, public art processes that parade developed by Martinez over two years and
conspired against creativity rather than inspiring involving the participation of 35 community organi-
new creativity, and little consciousness of the audi- zations and 1000 Mexican Americans and African
ence except to contain or pacify them in the process. Americans, children to the elderly. Participants
This kind of work goes on and in the US it is legis- paraded through three neighborhoods: Maxwell
lated, ironically, where other support for the arts has Street public market that was removed by the city the
fallen by the wayside in the last 25 years. following year (1994) to make way for the University
of Illinois’s expansion, thus an ode to the market’s
But today there is also an acceptance and demise after more than a century; and to two ethni-
belief of art that places the audience at the forefront. cally divergent areas of Chicago: African-American
Artists who crossed thresholds two decades ago— Garfield Park and Mexican-American Pilsen. For more
having been agitatedly, even aggressively challenged information on this and recent works by Martinez,
by those who thought they had no right to step into see: Culture in Action (Seattle: Bay Press, 1995); www.
this terrain and that their work was not art—have stretcher.org; Daniel Joseph Martinez: A life of
allowed successive generations to stand more firmly Disobedience (Cantz, 2009), www.frieze.com/issue/
on new ground. Now we are in a great period of article/culture_in_action; Exhibition Histories:
expansive experimentation. This explosion, the pro- Culture in Action and Project UNITÉ (London:
liferation and fecundity of publicly engaged art, is Afterall Books, 2013), Tom Finkelpearl: What We
important and embracing this excitement, as we go Made – Conversations on Art and Social Cooperation
forward. So I grow impatient with debates such as (Duke University Press, 2013).
Claire Bishop’s of autonomy vs. morality because 2 www.moma.org/visit/calendar/exhibi-
both can be present in a work. There are also more tions/965; www.regina-frank.de
productive and less oppositional discourses. 3 Robert M. Pirsig: Zen and the Art of Motor-
cycle Maintenance (New York, 1974, p. 34-35, 275)
What is your advice: How should exhibition 4 John Dewey: Art as Experience, (New York,
making be expanded within the next decade? 1980, p. 348, 302)
5 Mary Jane Jacob, Jacquelynn Baas: Chicago
MJJ: In the future, I hope we can take the Makes Modern. How Creative Minds Changed
participation and socially engaged discourses and Society (Chicago, 2012)
widen them. There is much to be gained from look-
ing at how art creatively intersects with other fields,
building productive alliances rather than taking Captions
political stances that just point out what is wrong. 1 Daniel J. Martinez, Consequences of a Gesture,
And with this, we can also fortify what art can do out Chicago 1993.
of and, maybe even in, museums. 2 Haha, Flood, A Volunteer Network for Active Par-
ticipation in Healthcare, Chicago 1992-95, commis-
That’s why care is so important. Artists care sioned by Sculpture Chicago’s Culture in Action. A
about the questions they are working on. What they group of participants built and maintained a hydro-
do is needed and useful, especially now. Curators ponic garden in a storefront by cultivating vegetables
take care as partners, cultivating ideas, holding open and therapeutic herbs for people with HIV.
an exploratory space during the time of creation, and 3 The exhibition Learning Modern, bridged the
then caring for the exhibition of what was explored historic roots of American modernism in Chicago and
for a time, in a context, in an art way. Maybe we its critical role in education in the mid-20th century,
should alter your list: artwork-artist-curator-audi- linking it to the contemporary critical practices of
ence. artists, architects, and designers, and was the center
piece of the program, Living Modern Chicago (2009-11).
4 Wolfgang Laib, Unlimited Ocean, 2011. The
exhibition at the School of the Art Institute of
37 Issue 19 / June 2013

Chicago Sullivan Galleries is one of the artist’s largest

pollen and rice installations to date.
Mary Jane Jacob holds the position of Professor

and Executive Director of Exhibitions and Exhibition Stud-
ies at The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, where she
leads practice in curatorial training and is currently spear-
heading a major research project on Chicago social prac-
tice. As chief curator of the Museums of Contemporary Art
in Chicago and Los Angeles, she staged some of the first
U.S. shows of American and European artists before shift-
ing her workplace from the museum to the street. Recently
her programs have led to co-edited anthologies such as
“Buddha Mind in Contemporary Art”, “Learning Mind:
Experience into Art”, “The Studio Reader: On the Space of
Artists”, and “Chicago Makes Modern: How Creative
Minds Changed Society”. Among others in addition, Jacob
was awarded the Women’s Caucus for Art Lifetime
Achievement Award, Public Art Dialogue’s Lifetime Award
for Achievement in the Field of Public Art, and as one of
the key influential women in the field of visual arts in the
U.S. In 2012 Jacob was awarded a Warhol Foundation
Curatorial Research Fellowship.
38 Issue 19 / June 2013

Raqs Media Collective On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Interview with Raqs Media

Collective on the
exhibition, Sarai Reader 09
by Chloé Nicolet-dit-Félix
and Gulru Vardar
Gulru Vardar and Chloé Nicolet-dit-Félix: kind of practice. We remain committed to that
Since the creation of Raqs Media Collective in 1992, vision, even today.
you have been working as artists and curators, explor-
ing a wide array of mediums of creativity and collabo-
rating with people from various artistic fields. How do
you share this span of responsibilities and how do you
question the issue of shared authorship?
Raqs Media Collective: All our projects are

jointly authored. We do not identify any one of us as
the ‘custodian’ of a particular practice or method or
style or work process. The work that we do, artisti-
cally and curatorial, emerges and exists at the inter-
section of our triangulated curiosities, skills and
desires. In some ways, we could say, that Raqs, which
1
is more than the sum of its personified parts (any one
of us as individuals), is the author.
G/C: You are currently curating the exhibition
G/C: Sarai is a program that you initiated in Sarai Reader 09 at the Devi Art Foundation in Gur-
2000, as part of the Centre for the Study of Develop- goan, India; a living exhibition in the form of a series
ing Societies in Delhi, India; it is composed of of unfolding episodes over time, with a continual
researchers and practitioners, who strive to develop a transformation. What does the exhibition intend to
model of research-practice that is public and creative, investigate and what are the spectrum of possibilities?
as well as a multidisciplinary space and a platform
involving many ideas and artistic productions. What Raqs: The exhibition investigates practice
did you manage to embody in this interdisciplinary itself. Here, we mean practice in its fullest sense, as
platform? an ethic of making, as a mode of living thought. We
are particularly interested in what we call ‘the sensa-
Raqs: What we managed to embody was a fun- tion of thinking’. We are interested in the exhibition
damental move, a refusal to sustain the rupture being a space where artists can develop their think-
between theory and practice, between thinking and ing, have conversations with each other, respond, not
doing and creating and reflecting. Ours was a wager just to each other, but to time itself, making it possi-
that the conversation between practices and methods ble for them to embrace the full spectrum of possi-
was more important than the soliloquies of any one bilities latent in their work process. This means not
39 Issue 19 / June 2013

being tied down to the final form of an object, but to placed on site. An artist who works with drawings
be committed to make an art work travel the length developed a new mode of suspending miniature
and breadth of its own possibilities. cut-outs made from his drawings as a response to the
work of other artists. A performance artist started
The potential consists in the generation of a what he called an ‘unschool’ of performance, which
different temporal rhythm, one in which things can had several of the other artists as pupils. A graphic
grow, branch out, make connections. Most exhibi- novelist made and erased a large wall mural several
tions focus on how an art object affects a visitor, here, times, translating in time the sequentiality that she
diverse art practices are, in some senses, visitors to works through in frames. Each erasure was an enthu-
each other’s presence. siastically participatory ritual. These are some of the
discrete examples that come to mind, but more
They relate, not as frozen entities but as importantly, there has been a very alive process of
dynamic processes.They have changed in each other’s osmosis.
company. This exhibition is an index of that transfor-
mation. G/C: The first episode of the exhibition opened
on August 18 2012 at the Devi Art Foundation in
G/C: Could you give an example of how some Delhi, the following three episodes are now unfolding
of the practices in Sarai Reader 09 engaged in a dia- ; what was the public response and what reactions did
logue and altered as a result of this? the project generate?
Raqs: We’ve had an excellent response. It

changed, from anticipation, when all that was visible
were proposals and a design on space; to participa-
tion, when proposals began to be realized; to enthu-
siasm, when works began to trigger new resonances;
to reflection and a sense of carrying things forward
in a significant way. The episodes, which are days
when the exhibition reconfigures itself, through the
inhalation of new work, the exhalation of ideas that
have been developing, and a sort of metabolic trans-
fer of energies and concept, have been exhilarating.
2
The last episode, which invited fifteen women
to reflect on their own practices was remarkable, it
generated a kind of electric attentiveness. During the
evening various events took place, including:
- A scientist talking about an epidemic of

hysterectomies in the hinterland, intersecting choice,
compulsion, labour, medical interventions and what
happens to the female body as it gets processed as a
productive machine.
- A film theorist developing her conjectures on
the vocabulary of love.
- A poet articulating her rage against patriar-
chy with humour, skepticism and a terse love of
3
language.
- A singer performing against the terms of her
Raqs: An artist who had been producing contractual obligations in the entertainment industry.
recorded ‘auditions’ found several participants - A curator exploring the idea of artistic failure
amongst his fellow artists; another artist who was through the report of an email exchange with artists.
working on handmade chap books got many of her
peers to write stories for her. A photographer created These are just some of the projects, there were
a self-reflexive archive of the exhibition that he many more and all of these practices were contextu-
40 Issue 19 / June 2013

alized within a space of artistic work, of practice you must have received many applications, how did
itself. It ended up being a kind of breakthrough for the selection process develop and what criteria did
the public, when the borders between different kinds you set?
of doing and being became permeable to all sorts of
osmotic transfers. Raqs: We have a curatorial colloquium, which
expands beyond the three of us in Raqs to colleagues
G/C: Did the recent sad event – where a young who have been working with us in Sarai for several
woman regrettably died after being beaten and gang years. We meet at regular intervals, discuss each
raped on a bus in Delhi – and the worldwide public proposal threadbare, explore its potentials, argue its
outburst against this incident and violence against merits and try and see how best we can position an
women, have any influences on Sarai Reader 09? idea. Naturally, not every proposal makes it, but
those that do, go through a very thorough process,
Raqs: No one has been untouched by the which helps us hone and sharpen the artists inten-
tragedy that struck the young woman. The whole tion, and sometimes to raise the level of the concep-
city, especially a lot of young people, have been tual ambition of the work.
transformed by the way in which they have come out
against misogyny on the streets. We are not removed G/C: So, is this shared authorship, or part of a
from this situation, and in some ways, are in the wider curatorial collective?
thick of it in our personal capacities, as are some of
the artists. An artist who works with performance Raqs: Perhaps it is something beyond author-
and has been part of Sarai Reader 09 has been devel- ship. We have a group of people – the wider curato-
oping silent performances that draw attention to the rial colloquium – that has been thinking a set of
vulnerability of the body, but we are doing these questions about practice with us for a while. This
things in the course of our daily lives, not especially, exhibition is a way of marking milestones and cardi-
or solely in the context of the exhibition. There is a nal points in that developing thought process. None
lot of writing and conversation happening; and as of us claims that process as property. We, as Raqs,
what often happens in a moment of transformation, instigated this phenomenon, but now it finds its way
strangers are talking to strangers. On the episode into the world under a variety of influences, includ-
that opens on February 3rd 2013, we will feature a ing our own. That is a more accurate way of looking
slide show of photographs of the protests by a young at the situation of Sarai Reader 09.
photographer who has been meticulously document-
ing every demonstration and protest. G/C: As co-curators of Manifesta 7, The Rest of
Now, in Trentino, Italy (2008) – and your ongoing
G/C: The name of the exhibition derives from project Sarai, how do you consider authorship in your
the publication “Sarai Reader 09:(Projections)”, that curatorial practice?
will take place concurrently. What are the converging
points between the exhibition, Sarai Reader 09 and the Raqs: For us, Authorship is not something that
publication? collapses into bodies and biographies alone. A
moment and a duration are also authors. A network
Raqs: We see this exhibition as an open book. can be an author. A desire and a dilemma can also
By this we mean it has a very publication like form. It author a work. We see authorship in terms of the
announces itself; it creates its own critical apparatus. things that make a work appear in the world. Only
And, it takes its inspiration from the eclectic adven- some of those things are people. Sometimes more
turousness and rigor of the Sarai Readers. There will than one people cause a work to appear. This can
be an exhibition related publication, which will be mean that authorship may be vested in each of these
the Ninth Sarai Reader and we are calling it “Projec- people as individuals, it can also mean that it is
tions”. This is not going to be a catalog of the show. vested in the relationship that ties these individuals
Rather, it will be a kind of annotative device, that together. Curatorially, we seek to be open to all these
takes the concepts of the exhibition discursively nuances when we consider authorship. We are not
further, but also works as a kind of exhibition in impresarios, we are not directors, we are not manag-
print and paper. ers. Perhaps the most interesting form our curatorial
model of authorship takes is as something of a
G/C: By sending out a call for proposals, for the hybrid between catalyst, witness, agent and interloc-
exhibition and the publication of “Sarai Reader 09” , utor.
41 Issue 19 / June 2013

Raqs Media Collective are based in New Delhi,

India and composed of three media practitioners: Jeebesh
Bagchi (*1965), Monica Narula (*1969) and Shud-
dhabrata Sengupta (*1968).
Raqs Media Collective enjoys playing a plurality of

roles, often appearing as artists, occasionally as curators,
sometimes as philosophical agent provocateurs. They make
contemporary art, have made films, curated exhibitions,
edited books, staged events, collaborated with architects,
computer programmers, writers and theatre directors and
have founded processes that have left deep impacts on con-
temporary culture in India.1
Raqs Media Collective remains closely involved with

the Sarai program at the Centre for the Study of Develop-
ing Societies (www.sarai.net), an initiative they co-founded
in 2000. Sarai Reader 09 is an ongoing contemporary art
exhibition (18 August 2012 – 16 April 2013) at the Devi
Art Foundation, Gurgaon, India.
Captions
All figures: Courtesy of Raqs Media Collective.
Sarai Reader 09 exhibition, Devi Art Foundation,
Gurgaon, India.
42 Issue 19 / June 2013

Artists and Curators as Authors On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Artists and Curators as

Authors – Competitors,
Collaborators, or Team-
workers?
Dorothee Richter
Are artists and curators competitors for authorship
in the fine arts? Have curators adapted procedures of
artistic self-organisation, and if so, with which conse-
quences? Or are artists and curators collaborators in an
area in which attributions are uncertain, and therefore
also more flexible and negotiable?
This paper discusses artistic and curatorial authorship, and attempts to situ-
ate it within history. Are artists and curators competitors for authorship in the fine
arts? Have curators adapted procedures of artistic self-organisation, and if so, with
which consequences? Or are artists and curators collaborators in an area in which
attributions are uncertain, and therefore also more flexible and negotiable? I will
discuss these questions based on concrete historical examples:
1. A photography of Harald Szeemann at Documenta 5;

2. Case study: The Fluxus artists and their struggle for the power of definition;
3. Case study: The Curating Degree Zero Archive as an attempt to negotiate
and hold in suspense the relationship between artists and curators.
I will follow in this paragraph an argument, that Beatrice von Bismarck has
developed1: the pose adopted by Harald Szeemann on the last day of Documenta 5
established the occupational image of the authorial curator as an autonomous and
creative producer of culture, who organised exhibitions independently of institu-
tions. For the first time ever in the history of Documenta, an individual curator
single-handedly defined its theme, calling the central section of the exhibition
“Individual Mythologies” (within the overall exhibition theme “Questioning Reality
– Image Worlds Today”). Szeeman was solely responsible for the selection of art-
ists, while previously artists had been chosen by a committee of art historians,
politicians, and association chairmen. Szeeman was appointed “General Secretary
of Documenta 5.”2 The image unmistakably reveals a specific arrangement of
43 Issue 19 / June 2013

power: a cast figure enthroned amid a group of persons is a highly traditional kind
of image composition. In what follows, I will discuss three pictures selected from
Dumont’s Encyclopedia of Arts and Artists. Each of these depictions adheres to the
basic pattern, since the restaging of this pose resonates with previous patterns of
meaning. I will comment only briefly on the image composition of these works,
ignoring other aspects3 because I will especially looking into the appeal character of
images in the political sphere.
1 Spanish Antependium [alter

substructure] with Christ in the
Mandorla and with the Twelve
Apostles, around 1120, Barcelona
The meaning of this image arises from its interaction with a divine service, in
that it serves to instruct and situate the congregation. Its primary purpose is to
depict Christ as a God who has become human. The rigid composition of the image
and its schematic figures make it clear that a firmly established hierarchy exists, in
which relations are entirely formal and impersonal. The arrangement of power is rigid.
The proportions of the figures clearly establish and substantiate an obvious

hierarchy between divine creation and mortal humans. One figure stands at the
centre of the picture. While the arrangement of figures and their proportions vest
the central figure with power and authority, God is at the same time also human.
The picture presents itself as a truth, hierarchically situating us as viewers standing
in front of it and accepting instruction.
2 Duccio di Buoninsegna, Maestà,

1308–1311, tempera on poplar
panel, 213 x 400 cm
(Antependium= altar substructure)
Duccio’s Maesta also fulfils a cultic function. Its composition implies worship
and veneration, specifically the veneration shown towards a woman with a male,
God-like child on her lap. The sheer size of the Mother of God removes her from
the human mortals turning towards her and the child. She holds the child in her
arms and lowers her gaze, whereas the baby Jesus looks with authority out of the
picture into the world. Like the previous picture, Duccio’s also hierarchically situ-
ates its viewers, who can to a certain extent identify themselves with the gesture
and movement of the worshippers in the picture.
44 Issue 19 / June 2013

3 Jean-Auguste Dominique Ingres,

The Apotheosis of Homer, 1827,
oil on canvas, 386 x 515 cm
The Greek poet Homer is the central figure in Ingres’s The Apotheosis of
Homer (1827). Clearly apparent in the painting is the attribution of an ingenious
spirit bestowed upon the poet by divine powers. Inscribed in this arrangement,
moreover, are additional concepts and effects of gender difference, which since the
Renaissance have constructed the male subject as the subject of central perspec-
tive. The female muses sit at the poet’s feet. The specific dynamics of composition
are such that the painting radiates beyond its edges and involves us in the events
shown. The figures in the foreground turn towards us, appealingly, and direct our
attention to the poet in a kind of substitutional testimony. As viewers, we close the
circle around the poet, albeit on a much lower level. We complete the painting as it
were, whose composition is obviously meant to address and include us.
4 Baltasar Burkhard, Harald

Szeemann, portrayed on 8th October
1972, the last day of Documenta 5,
black-and-white photograph.
Seen thus, Harald Szeemann’s pose is a distinctive positioning, based on

historical schemata, especially of the curator as a god/king/man among artists.
Comparable to earlier visual demonstrations of power, this picture also endeavours
to position its viewers, plainly appealing to their attention. Viewers are thus posi-
tioned opposite a scenario in which the artists form a clearly lower-ranking group
as the curator’s adepts. Szeeman’s casual and sprawling pose makes it clear that
here is someone who can take liberties. As viewers, we occupy an even lower hier-
archical position than the artists; we are situated as eyewitnesses of a spectacle, not
as members of a bohemian community. Nevertheless, our role is to provide affir-
mation.
Beatrice von Bismarck has observed that Szeemann’s curating of When Atti-
tudes Become Form, an exhibition that he organised as director of the Kunsthalle
45 Issue 19 / June 2013

Bern in 1969, firmly established his position and recommended him to convene
Documenta 5.4 In 1969, Szeemann voluntarily resigned as director of the Kunsthalle
Bern to found his own agency. He called the agency “Agentur für geistige Gastar-
beit im Dienste der Visualisierung eines möglichen Museums der Obsessionen”
[Agency for Spiritual Guest Work in the Service of Visualising a Possible Museum of Obses-
sions]. He didn’t register the agency and according to Sören Grammel it had no legal
status. Szeemann described the curator as a “custodian, sensitive art lover, writer of
prefaces, librarian, manager, accountant, animator, conservator, financier, diplomat,
and so forth.”5 He positioned the Museum of Obsessions as an ideal edifice, as a
curatorial concept. Employing the notion of the museum as a fictional institution,
Szeemann brought it close to the actually existing institution as part of the institu-
tion of art, implicitly positioning himself as a museum director. Such positioning at
the same time distanced the Museum of Obsessions from actually existing art
institutions. While Sören Grammel’s study of Szeemann’s authorial position argues
that “agency” points to a division of authorship in the production process, I would
like to suggest that the term by all means implies hierarchy, and thus largely revokes
the notion of divided authorship. Agencies have executives who are granted the
right to commercially exploit their products – agency profits, however, belong to
executives, not to staff.
Szeemann’s demonstration of power did not unfold without conflict. How

actually did the dispute between the artists and the exhibition curator happen? The
following remarks were made by Robert Smithson, and Szeemann appropriated the
quote insofar as Smithson’s article appeared in the exhibition catalogue for Docu-
menta 5:
“Cultural confinement occurs when a curator thematically limits an art exhi-

bition instead of asking the artists to set their own limits. One expects them
to fit into fraudulent categories. Some artists imagine that they have this
mechanism under control, while in reality it controls them. Thus, they sup-
port a cultural prisonhouse that escapes their control. The artists themselves
are not restricted, but their production most certainly is. Like asylums and
prisons, museums also have inpatient departments and cells, namely neutral
spaces that are called ‚galleries’. In the gallery space a work of art loses its
explosiveness and becomes a portable object cut off from the outside world
[...] Could it be that certain art exhibitions have become metaphysical scrapy-
ards? [..] The curators as wardens still depend upon the debris of metaphysi-
cal principles and structures because they know no better.”6
In retrospect, Szeemann commented self-confidently on his function as a

warden, selector, and author: “Nevertheless, this was hitherto the most compre-
hensive attempt to turn a large exhibition as the result of many individual contribu-
tions into something like a worldview .” He formulated “Individual Mythologies” as
a “spiritual space in which an individual sets those signs, signals, and symbols which
for him mean the world.”7 Admittedly, Szeemann’s view focused entirely on himself
as author, and he considered the exhibition to be an image of one single worldview.
While Daniel Buren participated in Documenta 5 as an artist, his contribution to
the exhibition catalogue criticised the absorbing gesture of Szeemann, the meta-
artist:
“The exhibition is tending increasingly towards the exhibition of the exhibi-

tion as a work of art and no longer as an exhibition of works of art. Here it is
the documenta team, under Harald Szeemann, that is exhibiting (the works)
and presenting itself (to criticism). The works on display are spots of colour
46 Issue 19 / June 2013

– carefully selected – of that picture that each section (hall) has assembled
as a whole. There is even an order prevailing in these colours, since they have
been targeted and selected based on the concept of the hall (selection) in
which they exhibit and present themselves. Even these sections (castrations),
which are – carefully selected – spots of colour of the painting that the
exhibition is working out as a whole and as a principle, become visible only if
they surrender to the organiser’s protection, he who unites art by equalising
it in the box screen that he rigs up for it. He [the curator] assumes responsi-
bility for the contradictions; it is he who veils them.”8
Even though exhibitions had been deployed since the French Revolution as
new overall contexts of signification, capable of ideologically representing the state,
nation, or the bourgeoisie, the focus on a single curator organising an exhibition
was new. Seen thus, the photograph of Szeemann marks a turning point in the
discourse and becomes effective alongside the resonant meanings handed down
over time. The curator became a meta-artist. Which position were artists chased
from in the process?
Walter Grasskamp’s history of Documenta might give us some idea in this

respect. Documenta is a paradigm of the production of art history, because in
discursive terms it represents the most powerful exhibition enterprise of the post-
war period in the German-speaking world. By mounting this large exhibition, post-
war Germany demonstrated its endeavour to overcome Nazi ideology, a nationalist
conception of art, and the National Socialist aestheticising of politics. The Nazi
regime’s aestheticising of politics had occupied large parts of public representation
and thus also of public consciousness.9 Seen thus, the early Documenta exhibitions
were a means of, and evidence for, the re-education of the German people. Similar
events occurred at the Venice Biennale: in 1958, Eberhard Hanfstaengel, the Ger-
man commissioner, presented as national representation a retrospective of the
work of Vassily Kandinsky at the German pavilion (a neo-classical pavilion previ-
ously converted by the Nazis). Grasskamp notes that the exhibition [he refers to
the Venice Biennale]“signalled to an international audience the intention of the
Federal Republic of German to adopt previously banished and persecuted modern
art as state craft.”10
The Heroes of an Exhibition: Artists as Citizens

Walter Grasskamp has pointed out that Documenta 1 placed artists centre
stage. Besides the actual catalogue images, the catalogue for Documenta 1 fea-
tured an architecture section and “a highly odd image section containing 16 pages,
which the table of contents referred to quite laconically as images of the artists.
Among others, this section included images of Picasso, Braque, Leger, the Futurists,
Max Beckmann, and other participants either at work in their studios or taking up a
pose. No artwork shown at the inaugural Documenta can be more typical of the
particular reception of art at the time as this slim collection of images, in which
modern artists are explicitly presented as heroes. These hero images share an aura
of seriousness and respectability.”11
The entrance hall was also framed with portraits of artists, whose faces
welcomed exhibition visitors. The portraits seemed rather like images of politicians
or bankers, thus presenting the artists as citizens, as men clothed in suits and ties.
They personified the new heroes, who replaced military and dictatorial leaders. The
portraits were hung almost at eye level, from which we can infer a visualising of
egalitarian principles. The Documenta 2 catalogue lacks a concentrated glorifica-
47 Issue 19 / June 2013

tion of artists, as Grasskamp observes: “Instead, the portraits of the artists are
interspersed in the catalogue section, and could hardly be more pathetic, in some
cases even worse. Such portraits are completely missing from the Documenta 3
catalogue; as if one had sought to correct an embarrassing lapse, the works alone
now stand for the name, and the same applies to the catalogue of the fourth Docu-
menta.”12
It should be stated, that instead showing the persecuted or murdered artists
it was a kind of evasive gesture to show the now called classic modernism as an
internationally accepted style.
5 Documenta 1, 1955
Documenta 5 however no longer features any serious bourgeois portraits,

but instead a hierarchically structured group, which nevertheless amounts to a
rather anarchic overall picture. The dispute between artists and exhibition makers
seemed to have been settled for the time being. The curator was now not only the
“warden,” but above all the figure subsuming the exhibition under one single head-
ing. He prescribed a certain reading of the works, the title became the most distinct
version of a programme, and his name emerged as the discursive frame. Szeemann
had thus wrested the naming strategy and labelling from the hands of artist groups
and had successfully transferred the exhibition into the economic sphere. For visi-
tors, the title “Individual Mythologies” blended with the individual works and thus
predetermined meaning – with the works forming small parts of a mythological
narrative. Where, however, did the anarchistic bohemianism seen in the photo-
graph come from? Which artistic strategies were possibly (iconographically)
adopted between 1955 and 1972, which new forms of organisation preceded this
gain in power, and which new forms of a creative potential were tried out before-
hand?
48 Issue 19 / June 2013

This poster announces the first Fluxus festival held in Wiesbaden in 1962,
that is, 10 years before Szeemann’s appointment in Kassel.
6 Poster, Wiesbaden Festival of

New Music, 1962
FLUXUS – Artists as Organisers

The 1960s witnessed a growing number of artist groups, including Fluxus,
Viennese Actionism, the Situationists, the Affichistes, the Destruction Art Group,
the Art Workers’ Coalition, the Guerilla Art Group, Nouveau Réalisme, the Letter-
ists, the Happenings, and the Gutai group. Each movement developed under spe-
cific social and historical conditions.13
In the German-speaking world, especially Fluxus and the Viennese Actionists

became well known, as well as the Happenings, which were, however, not strictly
distinguished from the two other movements. The reformulations introduced by
these revolutionary art movements imply an altered positioning of art towards
politics, and of the private sphere towards the public. They exploded genre bound-
aries, questioned the author’s function, and radically changed the production,
distribution and reception of the fine arts. Artist groups organised their own
opportunities for public appearances. Their scores were performed jointly and
differently in each revival; they took charge of distribution, of publishing newslet-
ters and newspapers, and of establishing publishing houses and galleries. Audiences
were now directly involved and subject to provocative address. The inversion of
terms instituted by Fluxus, by mapping their methods of composing music onto all
aspects of the visual, made it possible to consider everything as material and as a
basis for composition.14 They challenged hitherto prevailing cultural hegemony and
manifoldly anticipated on a symbolic level the 1968 student riots and protest
movements.
49 Issue 19 / June 2013

Fluxus artists took up educated middle-class concepts in both their choice of

venues (museums, universities, galleries, concert halls) and the terms employed in
their events, such as score, composition, symphony or concert – only to subse-
quently subvert them. Silke Wenk has shown that in the postwar period the need
of Federal Germans for a clearly structured order organised in terms of stable
values, which found only partial expression in political discourse, was displaced
onto high culture.15 Hierarchised high culture therefore appears as a refuge from
the collapse of a collective nationalist identity at the end of the Hitler regime and
the aggressions and sense of guilt bound up with this breakdown. Adorno, a con-
temporary of the Fluxus movement, concluded “that secretly, unconsciously,
smouldering, and hence particularly powerful, those identifications and the collec-
tive Nazism [here nazi-ideology ] were not destroyed at all but continue to exist.
The defeat has been ratified within just as little as after 1918.”16 The destruction of
the piano under the “misleading” headings “concert, New Music, score, etc.” shat-
tered precisely this bastion of retreat to “timeless” hierarchised high culture. The
Fluxus actions revealed a fissure in the imagined unassailability and sealing off of
this cultural sphere. When gazing into this fissure, the contemporaries perceived an
atmosphere of gloom: repressed sexuality, guilt and violence.
Already in 1965, Fluxus artists began publishing sarcastic articles that had
previously appeared in the Bildzeitung (Germany’s major tabloid) and middle-class
feuilletons, together with photographs of their performances and reports penned
by the artists. Reprinting a Bildzeitung article, a paper known for its right-wing
tendencies, in an Fluxus publication as it had situated the artists’ actions as left-
wing and potentially revolutionary. The description of the audience in this article as
“bearded young men, demonically looking teenagers, and elderly women” carries
sexual connotations. Precisely those persons most likely to be of an age in which
they would be living in a well-ordered sexual relationship, namely a middle-class
marriage, are conspicuously absent from such a description. Even the “elderly
women” appear to have come without elderly men. Each of the groups mentioned
implies a certain sexual openness, not to mention availability. The suspicion of
sexual debauchery, at least by way of allusion, underlies the description as a sub-
text. Press comments varied from mere boredom to derisive comments. Reprinting
the articles in a documentation published by artists foregrounds the narrow-mind-
edness of the press and buttresses the mythologisation of Fluxus actions as those
of a protest movement. Moreover, conducting a negative discourse on a work of
art also produces meaning (and ultimately enhances its value), as the artists real-
ised. 17
Dick Higgins commented on one of the pieces performed on that particular

weekend as follows:
“By working with butter and eggs for a while so as to make an inedible waste
instead of an omelette. I felt that was what Wiesbaden needed.”18 The latter remark
certainly applied to the entire performance. The festival also provoked comments
from the Wiesbaden population in response to the re-education to which they
were exposed: this poster was reprinted three years after the event as an instance
of self-positioning in Happenings, Fluxus, Pop Art, Nouveau Réalisme (eds. Becker and
Vostell).19
As mentioned, the artists organised their own performance opportunities. A

group of letters of George Maciunas, are especially interesting in this respect as are
largely concerned with organisational details, but also have an ideological streak.
Astonishingly, Becker and Vostell’s above-mentioned publication already blended a
variety of different texts as early as 1965, displaying these without further ado in
50 Issue 19 / June 2013

the art context. Not only reports of the participating artists (predominantly male),
but also details of the “making of an exhibition” were included. Disclosing organisa-
tional processes implies institutional critique. The conventional notion of a closed,
presentable, image-like performance is subverted. “Backstage“ affairs are laid bare,
thereby dismantling the aura of a work and of the idea of the authentic, spontane-
ous, and ingenious artist-as-subject.
7 Poster, Wiesbaden Festival of New

Music, Scribbles, 1962.
Comments of German public:
“the maniacs have broken loose”.
On 17th January 1963, George Maciunas wrote to Joseph Beuys before the
latter became a member of the Fluxus movement:
“Dear Professor Beuys:

I received your letter yesterday evening, and herewith respond to your questions.
1. Coming to Düsseldorf already at 10am on 1 February would be somewhat
uncomfortable as I would have to stay away from work and would lose 80
Marks. I could come on Friday evening towards 11pm. I must consider the
same problem that Emmett Williams has. I will come on 1 February at 10am
if it absolutely necessary. Actually Saturday would be enough to prepare
things.
2. Our manifesto could for instance be a quote from an encyclopedia
(enclosed) on the significance of Fluxus. I enclose a further manifesto.
3. We would be delighted if you could perform at the Festival. Wolf Vostell,
Dieter Hülsmanns, and Frank Trowbridge will be also be taking part as per-
formers and composers. I have revised the programme once more and have
included your compositions, although I don’t know which of Trowbridge’s
compositions can be performed. I would need to see them before I could
agree .[….]
51 Issue 19 / June 2013

5. We will not destroy the piano. But can we distemper it (that is, paint it
white) and then wash off the paint afterwards?
6. My daytime telephone number in Wiesbaden is 54443.
Regards
G. Maciunas.”20
This letter, politely phrased and keen to assure Beuys that the piano will
suffer no damage, undermines the image of the wild and revolutionary artist-as-
subject. Prevailing social conditions, however, become apparent in the avant-garde
artist’s addressing Beuys as “professor.” The publication conveys the hiatus between
revolutionary impetus and polite, bourgeois manners, and makes plain the chang-
ing roles of artists, organisers, and collaborators.
8 9
8 The first Fluxus Festival presented

Maciunas’s self-positioning strategy of compiling lists and graphics that artists and organisers on the same
level in 1962 in Wiesbaden.
invent and determine the genealogy of the Fluxus movement can be considered 9 George Maciunas’s List of Artists.
both a canonising and hierarchising process and its visualisation. The debates
among the artists were first waged in semi-public form in newsletters and subse-
quently made available to a wider public through the above-mentioned publication.
Heated, open-ended debates on in- and exclusion and ideological directions were
published.
In retrospect, Maciunas’s role as organiser, arranger, presenter, funds pro-

curer, public relations agent, and namer bears a remarkable resemblance with that
of the independent curator, who emerged as a new actor in the cultural field from
the 1970s and 80s. In his capacity as Fluxus organiser (and chief ideologist), Maciu-
nas anticipated not only the attribution of creativity, the meaning-giving acts of
52 Issue 19 / June 2013

establishing connections and recontextualisation, but also the authoritative gesture

of inscriptions and exclusions. Also, his attempts to subsume as a meta-artist the
works of other artists under a single label (“Fluxus”) recall the role of a contempo-
rary curator. Just as in today’s independent scene, realising exhibitions and events
depends not only on large venues and funds, but also other kinds of desire rela-
tions. Personal friendships, networks, group affiliations, and positionings within the
field all account for the social capital that allows one to operate in the fine arts.
This social network represents social and cultural capital, which can be translated
into economic capital. Thus Maciunas’s role transgressed the established roles in
the field of art, and anticipated new structures and modes of operation. While the
Fluxus images indicate no hierarchical relations among the group of artists, the
group is predominantly male. Szeemann’s staging, however, partly adopted and
established a hierarchical relation between gestures and stances, suggesting an
anarchic, liberated image of the artist, as yet another facet of the myth of the artist.
Subject to Negotiation: Curating Degree Zero Archive (CDZA) – an

attempt to hold in suspense the relationship between artists and
curators
10 CDZA Basel, January-February

2003.
10
In 2003, Barnaby Drabble and I initiated CDZA. Together with Annette

Schindler, director of plug.in (Basel), we invited curators, artist-curators, and groups
of curators from the area of “critical curatorial practice” to take part. CDZA is an
archive on the one hand, and a touring exhibition and Web site linked to participant
projects on the other. Elektrosmog, the Zurich-based design group, developed a
display and navigation system, and Wolfgang Hockenjos designed the CDZA web-
site. In the field of art, archives are practices found increasingly since the 1960s.
Hitherto established chiefly by artists and collectors, most recently curators have
begun to set up archives to provide access to their collections of material and make
public their selection criteria. This results from the dissolution of a self-contained
work of art, that is, the disappearance of a contingent art object, which necessitates
another form of cultural memory and has always comprised a note of protest and a
critique of museum practices. (Fluxus was also predominantly collected in archives,
especially the Sohm Archive and the Silvermann Collection). Nevertheless, such
archives and the collection and making public of materials tend towards a kind of
self-empowerment, aimed at entering cultural memory and to become audible in
what Foucault called the “murmur of discourse.”
Curating Degree Zero Archive strives towards an open narrative structure,

corresponding to the diverse critical contents provided by the participating cura-
tors. Arrangement of contents is not unalterable. Instead, CDZA travelled from
53 Issue 19 / June 2013

institution to institution, thus altering and expanding the selection of positions

presented in cooperation with the host institutions. We therefore worked closely
on content and form with artists, designers, and curators. The basic idea of the
archive is progressive and educational, and to gather information otherwise diffi-
cult to access into curatorial projects. Via its website, it aims to provide archive
users with a navigation structure and to operate as a basis for scientific and applied
“research” for both the participating curators and other arts and culture agents. It
does not aim to establish a closed narrative, but through a non-uniform range of
diverging positions to situate within a framework critical and politically intented
curatorial work of individual curators and render discernible contexts. We consider
the contradictions arising from the presentation of different practices to be fruit-
ful. We aim to preserve the contradictions, fissures, and divisions and to use the
resulting questions as a possibility for obtaining knowledge and insight.
Both Barnaby Drabble and I had until then worked chiefly as curators and
authors, but following our commitment we now moved into the position of an
artist. Our declared aim, moreover, was to share the power of defining the archive
with others in various ways. Thus, the archive is reinterpreted and expanded at
each location. We experienced the difficulty of assuming the role of artists towards
the host curators when Annette Schindler proposed to display a worldmap indicat-
ing the various exhibition locations. I refuted this idea for various reasons, among
others because it would cement a Eurocentric worldview and buttress the concep-
tion of the curator-as-author. A standard worldmap, as a pseudo-egalitarian sign of
a television consumer society, would obstruct other views of topography and its
national, cultural and geographical meanings. I was unable to assert this position.
On the one hand, we programmatically agreed to outsource the power of defini-
tion, as described in our concept – while on the other, we found ourselves in a
pre-structured, power-shaped institution, which granted us as “quasi-artists” less
power than the curator.
From Basel, the archive subsequently travelled to Geneva, Linz, Bremen,

Birmingham, Bristol, Lüneburg, Edinburg, Berlin, Zürich, Milan, Seoul, Bergen, and
Cork. In line with the title, small panel discussions involving the audience dealt with
various issues, for instance how a critical practice could be defined, the relationship
between artists and curators, how curating could be taught, and how the relation-
ship with a wider public could be conceived. In order to make the archive produc-
tive, debating the archive with local audiences became our central concern.
The archive turned itself into a visual manifestation of a discourse about the
displaying and mediating of contents. Modes of presentation ranged from funky
displays over sculptural forms to discussion fora – which raises the key question
how materials can be made accessible and curiosity aroused, how they can initiate
debates and challenge traditional positions and also – on the other hand – the
normative effects of displays. Presentations became a balancing act between prom-
ising pledges of interaction and amusement for post-Fordist subjects and a realised
(not merely symbolic) possibility for debate. For us, the re-interpretation was as
good as much possibilities it offered for the public to engage with the material.
Especially the re-reading of the archive proposed by Lise Nellemann in Berlin

provided an opening that made the contours of the groups “audience” and “actors”
permeable. Lise Nellemann invited participants, visitors, and artists and curators in
transit to present their archive “favourites.” Over ten evenings, two or three partici-
pants would present their projects for joint discussion. This setting enlarged the
group of those mastering the discourse; publications, DVDs, and videos housed in
54 Issue 19 / June 2013

the archive thus became the starting points for the exchange of knowledge and
opinion-making. Users thus unfolded the archive’s potential, employing it as a
platform for their concerns; our power of definition as initiators and co-deciders on
new admissions was also questioned.
11 Berlin, Sparwasser HQ, Lise

Nellemann invited artists, curators
and theoreticians to present
their favorits from the archive.
11
Within Sasa(44) & MeeNa Park’s reinterpretation of the archive in Seoul in

December 2006 and January 2007, the worldmap prepared by Peters, a Bremen-
based scientist, and published by Alfredo Jaar, functioned as a visual node of the
discourse. It ended up in the archive as part of the “Do All Oceans Have Walls”
project curated by Eva Schmidt and Horst Griese. This worldmap was presented
differently in that European countries were very small compared to their usual size.
It allows us to see how multi-authorial discursive practices in art proceed, namely as
a process involving resignification and various authors. Thus, the “worldmap” was
re-performed – in a way a late answer to the first display of a wordmap in Basel. Its
re-performance clearly revealed that “critique” and signifying processes can be
linked and become a joint practice, resulting in an Archive of Shared Interests, as
formulated by the De Geuzen artist group.
12 In Seould the unusual but

interesting worldmap was presented
and Wester hegemony questioned.
12
Artist and curators as cultural producers

Based on the material and arguments presented here so far, one preliminary
finding is that artists and curators are involved in a power-shaped constellation.
Only through shared content-related interests, political articulation, and joint posi-
tioning strategies can concerns be formulated that shift hierarchical arrangements
into the background. Artists and curators become collaborators, as evidenced by
numerous groups, whose protagonists come from different fields. Curators have
quite clearly adapted the procedures of artistic self-organisation and transformed
55 Issue 19 / June 2013

these into hierarchical constructions. However, “artists” and “curators” are no

longer functions that can be distinguished in each and every case. Both are involved
as cultural producers in signifying processes. Some curators first considered them-
selves artists (for instance, Ute Meta Bauer and Roger M. Buergel), while in other
cases artistic practice contains elements of curating (for instance, Ursula Biemann,
Andreas Siekamnn, Alice Creischer). Therefore, the term “cultural producers” make
sense. Nevertheless, it is imperative that concrete situations are discussed in rela-
tion to how power evolves in their cases. This becomes even more necessary, since
the nature of art as a commodity suggests an increasingly intense focus on an
individual author, thereby misappropriating complex relations and signifying pro-
cesses.
The possibility of positioning the audience as active participants either in

front of a picture as a group receiving instruction or as eye-witnesses or as partic-
pants in the picture is fascinating. However, we should not let the matter rest with
a promising gesture on the level of a funky display, that is, of participation as a
spectacle. The course that power takes must be reversible and authorship must be
many-voiced. For us, this meant making available and relinquishing the archive and
its interpretation. The archive makes sense for us if it occasions and encourages
discussion and processes of self-empowerment, that is, if positions tip over and
remain negotiable.
Translated by Mark Kyburz
The article was published in different versions in Beatrice von Bismarck, Jörn
Schafaff, Thomas Weski (Eds.), Cultures of the Curatorial, Berlin 2012 and in Corinna
Carduff, Autorschaft in den Künsten, Zürich 2011.
Notes
1 Beatrice von BISMARCK: See Beatrice von BISMARCK, Curating, in
Dumonts Begriffslexikon zur zeitgenössischen Kunst, ed. Hubertus BUTIN, Cologne
2002, pp.56–59.
2 See GRAMMEL, Sören: Ausstellungsautorenschaft. Die Konstruktion der
auktorialen Position des Kurators bei Harald Szeemann, Eine Mikroanalyse. Frankfurt
2005.
3 I refer to Wolfgang Kemp’s reception aesthetic approach; see Wolfgang
KEMP, ed., Der Betrachter ist im Bild, Kunstwissenschaft und Rezeptionsästhetik, Cologne
1985, and Wolfgang KEMP, Der rezeptionsästhetische Ansatz in: BRASSAT,
KOHLE: Methoden-Reader Kunstgeschichte, Texte zur Methodik und Geschichte der
Kunstwissenschaft, Cologne 2003, pp.107 ff.
4 See BISMARCK, as footnote 1.
5 Harald SZEEMANN, 1970, p. 26, quoted in Sören GRAMMEL, see foonote 2.
6 Robert SMITHSON, Kulturbeschränkung, Katalog der documenta 5,
Kassel, 1972, quoted here in Kunst/ Theorie im 20. Jahrhundert, Hg. Harrison, Wood,
Ostfildern Ruit, 2003 p. 1167.
7 Szeemann and Bachmann in Szeemann, quoted in Sören GRAMMEL, p.39,
see fotnote 2.
8 Daniel BUREN: Exposition d’une exposition, in: Documenta 5, 1972,
quoted in Oskar BÄTSCHMANN, Ausstellungskünstler, Kult und Karriere im modernen
Kunstsystem, Cologne 1997, p. 222.
9 Walter GRASSKAMP, Der lange Marsch durch die Illusionen, Über Kunst und
Politik, Kapitel: Kunst der Nation, Munich 1995, pp. 131-153.
56 Issue 19 / June 2013

10 Ibid., p.140.
11 Walter GRASSKAMP, Modell documenta oder wie wird Kunstgeschichte
gemacht? Kunstforum International Volume 49, 1982, (see Web research KI).
12 Ibid.
13 Justin Hoffmann, for instance, subsumes Fluxus, the Viennese Actionists,
numerous individual artists, the Situationists, the Affichistes, the Destruction Art
Group, the Art Workers’ Coalition, and the Guerilla Art Group under the designa-
tion “Destruction Art,” which has, however, failed to asserted itself as a term in art
history. See Justin HOFMANN, Destruktionskunst, Munich 1995
14 See Diedrich DIEDERICHSEN, Echos von Spielsounds in Headphones.
Wie Kunst und Musik einander als Mangelwesen lieben. Texte zur Kunst, Volume 60,
Berlin December 2005.
15 See Silke WENK, Pygmalions moderne Wahlverwandtschaften. Die
Rekonstruktion des Schöpfer-Mythos im nachfaschistischen Deutschland, in Ines
LINDNER et al. (ed.) Blick-Wechsel, Konstruktion von Männlichkeit und Weiblichkeit in
Kunst und Kunstgeschichte, Berlin 1989 and Barbara SCHRÖDL: Das Bild des Künstlers
und seiner Frauen, Marburg 2004.
16 Theodor W. ADORNO, Gesammelte Schriften, Volume 7: Ästhetische Theorie,
1970, p.135.
17 See also Pierre BOURDIEU, Die Regeln der Kunst, Frankfurt a. M. p. 276.
18 Owen F. SMITH, Fluxus: The History of an Attitude, San Diego 1998, p.74.
19 Jürgen BECKER and Wolf VOSTELL, Happenings, Fluxus, Pop Art, Nouveau
Réalisme, eine Dokumentation, Hamburg 1965.
20 George MACIUNAS in: Jürgen Becker and Wolf Vostell: Happenings,
Fluxus, Pop Art, Nouveau Réalisme, eine Dokumentation, Hamburg 1965, p. 197.
Dorothee Richter is head of the Postgraduate Programme in Curating and co-

founder, with Susanne Clausen, of the “Research Platform for Curatorial and Cross-discipli-
nary Cultural Studies, Practice-Based Doctoral Programme” a cooperation of the Post-
graduate Programme in Curating and the Department of Fine Arts, University of Reading.
From 1999 to the end of 2003, Richter was artistic director of the Künstlerhaus Bremen
where she curated a discursive programme based on feminist issues, urban situations, power
relation issues, institutional critique. In 2005 she initiated, in collaboration with Barnaby
Drabble the Postgraduate Studies Programme in Curating. Symposia: “Re-Visions of the
Display”, coop. Jennifer Johns, Sigrid Schade, Migros Museum in Zurich. 2010 “Institution
as Medium. Curating as Institutional Critique?” coop. with Rein Wolfs, in 2013 the sympo-
sium “How is afraid of the public?” at the ICA London, coop. with Elke Krasny, Silvia
Simoncelli and the University of Reading. Her most recent publication is Fluxus. Kunst
gleich Leben? Mythen um Autorschaft, Produktion, Geschlecht und Gemeinschaft
and the new Internet platform www.on-curating.org which presents current approaches to
critical curatorial practice. In 2013 she published a film together with Ronald Kolb: Flux
Us Now! Fluxus explored with a camera.
57 Issue 19 / June 2013

Valerie Smith On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Interview with
curator Valerie Smith
by Jacqueline Falk
and John Canciani
While studying for her PhD in Art History in the early 1980s, Valerie Smith curated
for Artists Space, one of the leading institutions for contemporary art in the New York
City. She stayed there until 1989 and soon after became the director of the international
exhibition Sonsbeek 93 in Arnhem, Netherlands. Following Sonsbeek 93, she was chief
curator and exhibition director at Queens Museum of Art in New York for eight years. At
this time she was honoured with important awards. Her exhibition Joan Jonas, Five
Works, (2003) received the International Association of Critics Award and for Down the
Garden Path, The Artists’ Garden After Modernism, (2004), the Emily Hall Tremaine
Curatorial Award. Since April 2008 until the end of 2012 she was head of the department
of Fine Arts, Film and Digital Media at Haus der Kulturen der Welt in Berlin (HKW). With
the series Labor Berlin she created since 2010 a much-noticed stage for international
artists, who choose the city as a creative and experimental base for their work. Furthermore
she is a writer, editor and publisher of numerous publications.
This Interview was held by Skype with Jacqueline Falk and John Canciani on 18th
January, 2013.
Jaqueline Falk/John Canciani: Valerie, you In its early years Artists Space followed a for-
were in your twenties when you curated for Artists mat in which an artist picked another artist. Laurie
Space in New York. Artists Space, founded in 1972, Simmons, Robert Mapplethorpe, Nan Goldin and
had a big impact on the art institutions in New York Elisabeth Murray, for example, all curated shows of
and later elsewhere. Did you realize how big your other artists. We had group shows curated in this
impact was and if yes, when was the moment of way and exhibitions, which followed themes that
realisation? were important for that moment. Artists Space
always had performances and regular talks, but they
Valerie Smith: I realized Artists Space had had weren’t so formalized and documented as they are
an important history when Helene Weiner was the today. We live in a more self-conscious time.
director, and I wanted to be a part of it, but I hadn’t
realized it would continue to be important for artists. Irving Sandler, a founder of Artists Space
I think you hope you make an impact, but you are initiated the “Artists Slide File“ where emerging
not so conscious of it at the time. It was fun and artists could bring their slides and a resume and any
about working with emerging artists. The criterion interested person could review that material and get
was to choose artists, who were not represented by a in direct contact with them. Curators and critics
commercial gallery. This meant that one had to really came to look at work that came from all over New
go out into the field and look at a lot of young work. York City. The slide file provided another platform
Some of it was quite tentative, meaning not fully from which young artists could get shows outside of
formed because they were young and their work was the Artists Space. In addition Artists Space curated
in that nice experimental stage, which was exciting an annual exhibition based on the work in the files
because it brought in a great spirit into the space. and these exhibitions were always very exciting,
because new talents popped up and a lot of curators,
dealers and critics would come to the openings.
58 Issue 19 / June 2013

Towards the end of my tenure there I remem- had more time. The criterion was that once I decided
ber being very conscious of how to distinguish Art- on an artist I would invite them to propose an idea. I
ists Space from all other similar institutions, like would invite them to come and spend two weeks in
White Columns or PS1, a line of thinking partially Arnhem. I had a car and we would travel in and
provoked by funding institutions. We were just try- around the environs of Arnhem, so I got to know the
ing to do edgy work, and although everybody could city very well. I wanted the exhibition to be in the
claim that for themselves, it became very clear that villa, in Sonsbeek Park, in the city and out in the
the art world was getting so big in NYC that it could flood lands that surround the Rheine. Every time I
definitely hold an Artists Space plus a White Col- got in the car, we would go to certain places that I
umns, plus a PS1, plus any number of alternative knew, but I would always find new spots and the
spaces, it was just a matter finding your special angle. suggestions of the artists would lead us to explore
different areas.
The year I left we picked Nan Goldin to curate
a show, Witnesses Against our Vanishing. What she It was an adventurous and experimental way
did on the AIDS-issue became enormously contro- of working and a hugely time consuming process.
versial and our funding from the National Endow- There were a few people whose work I really liked,
ment was taken back because of what they deemed as who I knew did not work in a site-specific or process
explicit content. There were demonstrations; it oriented way, like Mike Kelley for instance and Juan
became a huge issue. The positive outcome for the Muñoz. I went to Madrid to meet Juan and told him
institution, because with these shows we all felt Art- that I didn’t want him to do a sculpture, which was a
ists Space had an effect on the political system. relief to him, because he didn’t want to either. He had
been creating these wonderful radio pieces with his
JF/JC: After 8 years of curating at the Artists brother-in-law Alberto Iglesias, a great composer,
Space you were invited to be the director of Sonsbeek who, I later found out, works with the film director
93. You developed the concept of the 3 circles: the Pedro Almodóvar. Juan with Roberto developed a
Sonsbeek park, the city and the surrounding flood beautiful story based on a building in Arnhem that
lands of the city. This included 103 locations within was destroyed during World War II. The piece for
the park, a constructed landscape, the city with its radio, Building for Music, had a narrative by Juan
institutions and the surroundings of Arnhem. The about a visionary architect and his concept of archi-
places and the works were very heterogeneous with tecture with a magical composition by Alberto.
every work in its place. Sonsbeek 93 had the reputation
of being challenging. It seemed to us that the decision Mike Kelley’s The Uncanny project took place
about the sites were very important and were made because I went to visit Mike in his studio in Pasa-
at an early stage. Did you visit Arnhem first, scouted dena. There, I saw the beginnings of the Heidi pro-
the locations and defined them for yourself or was ject he was working on with Paul McCarthy. Also on
this done together with the artists? the wall were the beginnings of another project, but
when I asked him about it, he said that it was a pro-
VS: I had seen Saskia Bos’ wonderfully roman- ject that he would like to do but no one would do it,
tic and timely project in 1986 and I knew a lot of the meaning finance it for him. I knew instantly that that
artists who she showed. I absolutely wanted to do was the project I had to produce. I knew it would be
something very different and the Stiftung Sonsbeek an exhibition within an exhibition within the Sons-
allowed me to do so. After my first experiences at beek 93 exhibition, because he included his personal
Artists Space with producing site-specific works I collections plus an assembled collection of work
knew that this way of working was what I wanted to within the larger context of the assembled artists in
do for Sonsbeek 93. the Sonsbeek 93 exhibition. But there were also pro-
jects proposed by artists that I refused to realize, like
Documenta 9 was also taking place at around the project partially inspired by Neo-Nazi actions in
that time, but unlike Documenta I didn’t feel the the neighbouring town of Nijmegen, which Maurizio
necessity to travel around the world. There wasn’t Cattelan wanted to do.
enough time or money to do so therefore, I kept very
much to New York, LA and Europe. I had to work JF/JC: Do you remember, why it couldn’t be
quickly and I wanted to show a number of artists that realized?
were working in Europe, but were not Europeans. I
think I could’ve developed that much more, had I
59 Issue 19 / June 2013

France. He considered Sonsbeek 93 and was very

nice, but in the end, suggested Tom Burr instead.
Tom Burr is a wonderful American artist, who works
site-specifically and I got to know his work and I
liked it. Tom did an interesting project that involved
Robert Smithson’s writings on Frederick Law Olm-
stead and the gay community in Arnhem, which
brought a strong social element to Sonsbeek 93 that I
sought to include and which Arnhem needed.
JF/JC: You decided that you wanted to make

Sonsbeek 93 like a research project, it seems you were
1
interested in the approach, the curatorial methodol-
ogy and the process. Did you have a reference point
from other exhibitions you knew or was this a new
experimental approach?
VS: Claire Bishop interviewed me regarding

my models for Sonsbeek 93. She asked me specifically
if I knew the work of Harald Szeemann, but I did not
at the time I made Sonsbeek 93. I had never studied
his exhibitions; coming from New York and steeped
in the young art world there, he was absolutely not in
my sphere of reference. I was most excited by the
possibilities of the new productions I had done at
Artists Space as I told you. Any possible outside influ-
2
ence would have been Kaspar König’s 1987 Münster
Skulptur Projekt. Some of the sculptural works were
VS: There was a very active Neo-Nazi group in more involved than simply placed in the park. He
Holland. They had spray-painted graffiti on the invited several artists who stretched the concept of
graves in the Allied Military Cemetery near Nijme- sculpture a little bit further by working with the
gen. It was in the papers and Catalan wanted to use social fabric of the place. It ended up being a sculp-
them in some way. It would have been terribly detri- ture or maybe something else. Some artists, like
mental to the whole Sonsbeek project and to the Michael Asher, developed a process where the aspect
community had we gone ahead with it. We discussed of sculpture changed over time; it wasn’t just a single
it among my colleagues and then I think I wrote him element in a site.
a letter to tell him I couldn’t do it. I think he under-
stood, but it was disappointing for all concerned that JF/JC: Sonsbeek 93 was called a social art exhibi-
I couldn’t accept any of his projects. And there were a tion. You said that labels are a very easy way for peo-
number of other proposals that, for various reasons ple to deal with complex problems. Was the labelling
of finance, feasibility or mismatch, I did not realize. an advantage for you or did you have to use a lot of
energy to explain that some works were social art but
JF/JC: You had 48 artists involved in Sonsbeek not the whole project?
93. How many artists did you contact or wanted to
invite? Did any of the artists decline your invitation? VS: I think these labels came well after the
exhibition was over. During the preparation for
VS: I never had a limit on it, there came a Sonsbeek 93 there was a feeling from the Communi-
point where… I think it’s like a work of art, you cations department and the Trustees that the mes-
know it’s finished and then that’s it. I invited more sage of the exhibition wasn’t coming across. In retro-
people than those who actually did a project. At one spect, this may seem surprising, because, of course,
point it felt that it was full enough. And there is also everybody is working in this way now but, at the
a point where you’ve spent all the money. time, I think it was a hard exhibition for people to
swallow. Therefore, a program of talks was organized
There were artists who declined. Christian where I could go to a number of small city in Hol-
Philipp Müller was involved in the Unité project in
60 Issue 19 / June 2013

land and some cities in neighbouring countries to VS: In Sonsbeek 93, for instance, there were a
present the exhibition. I did a slide show and this was few pieces for which there comes a point of no
quite successful for the people who attended those return. So you have to kind go with it. If you are not
talks. They became interested and there was a lot of so busy and distracted that you can feel in the begin-
enthusiasm, but often it was a small audience. Sons- ning that it’s really not working, then you can make
beek is not Documenta, where there is anticipation the hard and terrible choice of saying so and stop
and everybody is anxious to hear what you have to production. But if you don’t catch it early, and,
say. But, I actually enjoyed the talks, because when because of the way the process is going, you don’t see
you are discussing the work the complexity of it what the result will be, you wait and give the artist
comes out, and you find more and more in the work time. At some point it becomes too late. So if it’s not
to talk about. I think that’s true for every subject, so too detrimental to the artist, then I don’t really care
this became an interesting part of the process, maybe about myself, I let it pass and put the emphasis on
more interesting for me than for the audience. I don’t the better work. It’s an experiment. Not every work
know if it had an impact on getting more people to can be perfect. Everyone hopefully learns from it, so
see the show. it is all right.
JF/JC: Sonsbeek 93 was planed as a discourse of Sometimes when you deal with a number of
contemporary art between the art, the artists and very young artists who are not seasoned, this can
society. Did that function, especially with the public happen; on the other hand, it is just as likely to hap-
from Arnhem? pen with older experienced artists, too. Maybe it is
the fault of the curator for inviting them in the first
VS: You know that’s a hard one to answer, place and for allowing them to make those experi-
because there are several levels to this. When I first ences. I don’t regret these moments, I think its just
arrived, the people of Arnhem wanted me to learn part of the process when you work with new produc-
Dutch; there was no time to do this. But, because I tions, there is a risk, and when it fails there is always
didn’t know Dutch I couldn’t read the papers, so I something positive to gain from it, there’s always a
didn’t know what the press had written about Sons- reason. It can have to do with the lack of money, or
beek 93. I did find out, through my Dutch colleagues, the artist didn’t spend enough time thinking it
that the press was very critical and negative. But I through, or the site was not a good match, or I wasn’t
was, for the most part, oblivious to this and wouldn’t there to help them, or the relationship and under-
allow myself to focus on it. I have to say that many of standing wasn’t strong enough between us or some
the pieces were really brilliant. The artists had come artists are too shy to ask for attention. If you’re work-
up with great projects; it was just beautiful and very ing with 40 or more artists some get more attention
moving for me to see. If the public couldn’t see that than others. So there are all these variables, but in the
through the difficulties of getting there or the end you must be philosophical about it. Or, work
weather or the demands of the distances between more closely with a smaller group of artists.
works or whatever they were complaining about,
then it’s their loss. During the exhibition I had a JF/JC: How would you describe your approach
horrible conversation with the designer of the cata- to curating?
logue, who told me that he thought the book was
better than the exhibition (he had not seen the entire VS: I like to work directly with artists and
exhibition at the time). The book is all about the develop new projects for a particular space. It’s
process, which was my idea, so I don’t know how he always been a way of working that I have enjoyed,
could have concluded in such a way. I know that with especially when I have a good team, and, given the
these big exhibitions, like anybody’s Documenta or opportunity, I think most artists enjoy it too. It is not
biennale, you have certain pieces that are wonderful so often that artists are offered the time and money
and brilliant, which become key pieces, and others, to develop new work. There are challenges involved
for various explainable reasons, are maybe not as with working in this way, often due to time con-
good. With these big shows you can never win a straints, as well as financial and spatial/logistic con-
100%, it’s just the way it is. siderations. At the same time, there is nothing more
rewarding than researching a little known or forgot-
JF/JC: How do you handle the situation when ten subject in depth and presenting your findings in
you have the feeling that the work of an artist is not book or exhibition form. It’s like uncovering a mys-
going to be as strong? tery and sharing it.
61 Issue 19 / June 2013

JF/JC: Do you visit a lot of exhibitions to inspire have been more or less “exhibition ready” they
yourself and become familiar with new curatorial haven’t needed or called for such a radical interven-
practices? tion on my part; I usually leave this to the artist or
architect. While the concept of complete “disclosure”
VS: Is there such a thing as a new curatorial of the former Kongresshalle was very much in place
practice? Currently academia is flooded with curato- at the beginning of the exhibition process, several
rial study programs, there are new ones sprouting up key artist’s and architect’s projects in Between Walls
every week, according to e-flux advertisements. and Windows underscored our commitment to it.
Clearly there is a demand and universities and acad-
emies are anxious to fulfil this trend as well as their
coffers at a time when many institutions are in crisis.
The crisis is the failure to properly educate students.
Studies of this kind should be folded into the study
of art history, rather than kept separate in order to
create a track that takes more administration and
money. The self-importance of some of these pro-
grams is annoying. But, then perhaps I am old
school.
3
It is also a bit of a fallacy that people who work
full-time for art institutions have time to see exhibi-
tions. They largely steal the time to do so while sacri-
ficing something or someone on the other end. But,
this is particular to those of us who have family
responsibilities on top of institutional pressures. No
one likes to hear about it, no one talks about it; it is
just a bad pill you reluctantly swallow. That said the
best-stolen moments visiting exhibitions I have had
are with artists, who are the most critical and also a
lot of fun to discuss art with. However, mainly my
inspirations come from outside contemporary art.
JF/JC: In the exhibition Between Walls and Win-

4
dows, Architektur und Ideologie (2012) you reduced the
Haus der Kulturen der Welt in Berlin to its original
condition as the former Kongresshalle, a Berlin sym- I’ve always been interested in architecture and
bol of the Cold War. You removed the new cashier at have worked with architects since Artists Space, so
the entrance, cut the artificial lights and new signage, for this last exhibition at HKW I developed the pro-
and even opened every access from all four sides of ject that seemed appropriate to what this institution
the building. With this action you made this very stood for, inside and out. It became very clear that
iconic building into a sculpture, recovering the purity the architectural and artistic interventions had to be
it had just after it was built. It’s quite clear that you on the periphery of the building so that the centre
acted in this case as an artist yourself by creating this could reveal the ideological construction of the pro-
sculpture. Was it the first time for you to interfere in gram. You walked into the centre to orient yourself
this way? and then had to find the work, a little bit like Sons-
beek 93. The interior had been bastardised through
VS: I do not think this was an artistic act, but a the different agendas of successive administrations;
necessary gesture of honesty to prepare the context there was a lot of visual garbage obfuscating interior
of the exhibition’s argument for the artists and archi- perspectives: flyers, cards, signage, furniture, etc. We
tects who participated. It made the exhibition credi- just cleaned it out and convinced dissenting voices
ble, without it the exhibition would have failed or that the building needed to return to its original
been a lot less strong. Yes, I believe it was the first condition as close as possible. We turned off all the
time I consciously set the stage for an exhibition in lights, opened all the doors, and made it open and
such an extreme way. Most spaces I’ve worked in free to the public for one month.
62 Issue 19 / June 2013

Before one couldn’t properly see the building’s reason. I want artists to be as ambitious as possible,
interior, which is as symbolic as its exterior. There is while I take on the role of facilitator, otherwise why
one point during the day were the light would come do it? Naturally, this changes when working with
in from the fenestration above and shoot right down dead artists and historical material. In both cases, a
into the Unterfoyer, lighting up the underground curator’s work should be seamless, perfectly integrat-
level. You could see very clearly how the light started ing all elements to the point.
to play into the building, which is the whole purpose
of this idea of transparency. In this way the “open
and free” ideology of the building became clear from Captions
the inside, not just the outside that everybody knows. 1 Valerie Smith with Irene Hohenbüchler ©
The exhibition would not have worked if we hadn’t Sonsbeek 93, Arnhem
orchestrated this; and, it was thanks to key members 2 Mike Kelley with Heidi statues © Sonsbeek
of the team, who argued hard for certain changes, 93, Arnhem
that we where able to accomplish this. 3 HKW side view © Affolter / Eugster
4 Opening, 01.09.2012 © Affolter / Eugster
It must be said that the Haus, like many art
institutions, hosts many different events. They often
rent parts of the building to outside organizations, Valerie Smith is a freelance curator and writer
which means there are no dedicated spaces just for based in Berlin. As the former Head of Visual Arts, Film
art. One has to book well in advance, and even then and Digital Media at Haus der Kulturen der Welt, Berlin,
one is subject to changes, often changes one has to she commissioned new work by architects and artists
pay out of the exhibition budget. Since Between Walls among them, Between Walls and Windows. Architektur
and Windows took over the entire building we nego- und Ideologie, (2012) with Amateur Architecture Studio,
tiated to get one solid month without severe inter- Supersudaca, Markus Miessen, Ângela Ferreira, Iñigo
ruptions. One month is not enough time for most Manglano-Ovalle; Über Wut (2010) with Klara Lidén,
people to see an exhibition. Nevertheless, it is docu- Mike Rakowitz, Jimmie Durham; and Rational/Irrational
mented and was an important milestone for me and (2008) including Javier Tèllez, Artur “Bispo” di Rosario,
for many of us who worked on it. Hanna Darboven. At HKW she also initiated the project
room, Labor Berlin, for Berlin-based-foreign-born interna-
JF/JC: What do you think are the differences tional artists. As Senior Curator and Exhibition Director of
between artists and curators? Do they share the same the Queens Museum of Art she curated many exhibitions
theoretical background? among them award winners, Joan Jonas, Five Works
(2003) and Down the Garden Path, The Artists’ Garden
VS: Essentially, they are two very different After Modernism (2004). As Director of Sonsbeek 93 in
species; sometimes I get the impression they are at Arnhem, NL she commissioned 42 new artists’ projects
opposite ends. The spectrum of skills required for among them Mike Kelley’s The Uncanny.
each profession can be very broad and vary greatly
depending on the context. But, this does not mean
that they cannot share the same theoretical back-
ground or have a successful practice in both fields;
there are many historical examples of this. One
learns something when curators and artists take on
each other’s roles. That said I have generally found
artist curated exhibitions more interesting than when
a curator as a curator intervenes or interferes, as the
case maybe, “artistically” with an artist’s work. This
can be awkward and disastrous. When artists curate
it is usually to contextualize their own work within a
set of issues. There, I am a bit more forgiving,
because even if it is not successful, it is usually amus-
ing. My philosophy has been that the artist has pri-
macy in the relationship. I like to give artists every
opportunity to realize their vision exactly as they
want it, of course, within financial and logistical
63 Issue 19 / June 2013

Gavin Wade On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Artist-curator Gavin Wade

on authorship, curating
at Eastside Projects and
the post-industrial city
interviewed by Michael Birchall
and Nkule Mabaso
Michael Birchall/Nkule Mabaso: This issue of incubator of ideas and forms”. How has Eastside
On Curating discusses the role of authorship in the evolved since it was initially founded? Could it be said
practice of artists and curators. I’d like to start by that Eastside is a collaborative-curatorial platform as
talking about the merging of the role of the artist and there is a team of co-collaborators?
curator, which you first outlines in a text, Artist +
Curator = (2000). Here you identified a selection of GW: In language terms it has developed from
artists who were committed to expanding their prac- ‘an artist run space as public gallery and incubator of
tice into the realm of curatorship in parallel with their ideas and forms’ to ‘an exhibition space with many
tendency to act as artists. Would you agree with Paul differences’ via being ‘an artist-run space, a public
O’Neil’s statement that exhibitions by artists-curators gallery for the city of Birmingham and the world’,
(such as yourself) are now a distinctive model of and ‘a place formed through cumulative processes of
curating?1 collaboration — the coming together of many peo-
ple’s ideas to form the unique conditions of the gal-
Gavin Wade: I wrote a text last year called lery’. As Eastside Projects evolves and develops the
‘The 5 Acts of Art’2 where I propose that art is exhibi- way we describe ourselves develops also. To say
tion, that art is not exhibited but that art exhibits, otherwise how it has evolved will always be to do this
that exhibition is a fundamental function of being same descriptive simplification of what the space and
human, and the fundamental process of art. The organisation is.
artist-curator position builds on this ‘truth’ to pro-
duce art that is necessary. I agree there are a number We believe it is urgent to provide a space that
of distinctive approaches to this now and that the responds to today’s most vital artistic practices.
artist-curator models have impacted on all other If the art of today is complex and challenging then
exhibition making to precipitate an awareness that the places that we conceive for experiencing it should
art exhibits. But it is not the dominant form of exhi- be equally so. So it is really the gallery and what
bition still, and the belief that art is exhibited persists happens here and is distributed from the gallery that
to much dullness! The artist is a primary producer of is the answer to your question ‘how has it devel-
art. The curator is a secondary producer. oped?’ To tackle this question we produced a Draft
Manual to ‘explain’ how to use Eastside Projects and
MB/MN: In 2008 you founded Eastside Pro- we continue to do so. The manual is a way of ques-
jects in Birmingham in collaboration with artists Ruth tioning the idea of interpretation as much as the use
Claxton, Simon and Tom Boor, designer James Lang- of art. Each definition could have a more detailed
don and architect Celine Condorelli. Eastside was con- definition so the ‘what’ of Eastside Projects would be
ceived as an “artist run space as public gallery and further defined as ‘a free, public space that is being
64 Issue 19 / June 2013

imagined and organised by artists. We commission function of art. This has developed into a series of
and present experimental contemporary art exhibi- exhibitions that examine the functions of art, and the
tions, and propose ways in which art may be useful construction of a gallery or a public sphere through
to society. EP is a questioning structure that in turn these functions. These have been Sculpture Show and
produces more questions and also, of course, possi- Abstract Cabinet Show in 2009, Curtain Show and
ble answers. Our ambition is to incorporate the Book Show in 2010, Narrative Show in 2011, Painting
methodologies of art-making at all scales and func- Show in 2012, and Puppet Show in 2013 with Trade
tions of the organisation.’ Show later this year. A number of these are curated
with the other directors Celine Condorelli for Cur-
tain Show, Ruth Claxton for Sculpture Show and
James Langdon for Book Show. Celine and Tom
Bloor curated Puppet Show with me supporting that
process, then Painting Show and Trade Show are
co-curated with other artists, Sophie von Hellerman
for Painting Show and Kathrin Böhm for Trade Show.
As well as this Ruth Claxton works closely with me
on the overall programme as Associate Director, and
co-curating Caroline Achaintre, Sara Barker, Alice
Channer last year for example. Then the Second
Gallery programme works with a wide range of
1
people inputting from the other Directors to Elinor
Morgan who is ESP Programmer at the gallery to
This is from our 5th Draft Manual, and we are other artist groups such as Kunstverein Schwerte or
working on our 6th at the moment. The new version Form/Content.
is a children’s book
We try to learn from processes and be open to
At the start we borrowed from the Peter Nadin ways of working and allow space for other groups
gallery’s 1979 statement and said “We have joined and models to affect what we are, to alter us a public
together to execute functional constructions and to sphere.
alter or refurbish existing structures as a means of
surviving in a capitalist society.’ I think this state- MB/MN: Many artist-curators, curators and
ment still stands. We don’t call ourselves a ‘collabora- artists began their careers in artist run spaces; initially
tive curatorial platform’ but it may apply. There are these spaces were established as an alternative to
many, many aspects of collaboration and that is a key museums and galleries. In recent years Project Spaces
ethos of the organisation, to be open to the potential have become part of the established art system and
of collaboration and to allow that to be expressed not have been incorporated into large-scale exhibitions
hidden. I like the phrase ‘we have joined together’ to and biennials. How do you maintain an artist-run-cen-
do things. We join in many ways. I lead the produc- tre model, without become a “mainstream” institu-
tion of Eastside Projects and collaborate with all the tion?
others and there are times when collaborations occur
between others and not me, but not as often, GW: The artist-run space is not a stop-gap.
although we would like that to happen more! The This was the first sentence I wrote in the very first
gallery has moments of focus where it is an artwork. text as I started the manifesto for Eastside Projects. I
My ambition is that the gallery is an artwork, not a want the artist-run space to become the main thing. I
curatorial platform. Artwork is the primary goal. don’t really have any fear of that. I wanted to ask why
isn’t the artist-run space a career, an ambition. I
MB/MN: Following on from the previous think it should be. Not a stage in becoming an artist
question, in this collaborative model you have estab- as it has been historically. There are many good
lished, how are your fellow collaborators part of the things about how the artist-run space has existed but
curatorial decisions? I saw this idea that it was a stop-gap as a weakness if
they all do that. I wanted to make one that wasn’t a
GW: The first exhibition, This is the Gallery stop-gap! But I doubt if it would become ‘main-
and the Gallery is Many Things, set up an idea of an stream’ as that would require that in the main people
evolving space, as development and evolution as a would want to engage a questioning, complex, and,
65 Issue 19 / June 2013

likely, difficult situation to experience art. But then, Puppet Show sits on Nelson’s stage now. M6 was in no
as you say, biennials can be pretty complex, difficult way a work by me. It was not necessary for it to be.
beasts when they get it right! I see absorption of our My choice as an artist-curator has been over the past
principles into other situations as a success and we 17 years to work in many different ways with many
respond accordingly. different people in many different contexts but I hope
within the pragmatic utopian direction and impulses
MB/MN: How has your practice as an artist- I take there is a consistency of attack and production
curator developed since you began working at East- of what art can be. Clarity of authorial voice is proba-
side? bly not the mission. I would suggest that clear autho-
rial distinction is a red herring set up by the art
GW: Perhaps it has further contemplated, world institutions of the past of which artists were of
utilised and incorporated aspects of being a leader, a course implicit. I think those distinctions can be
politician, and a manager. Eastside Projects allowed dismantled now.
me to focus on series, iterative and cumulative pro-
cesses in even more powerful ways I hope, than I was
able to do as a roving artist-curator pervious to 2008.
It has also allowed a situation where all of the skills,
approaches, networks and intuitive impulses that I
have as an artist-curator could be supported in a
more sustained way to allow an on going research
visible to others in the field. It limits the number of
other projects in other contexts that I am able to do,
but then that was the point, to create new conditions,
to create context, a new universe of a kind. I feel
Eastside Projects continues to be the most ambitious
project of my career. It is a dream project.
2
MB/MN: Within your practice, as an artist-

curator, you use a specific methodology in the exhibi- MB/MN: It is my understanding that elements
tions you curate. During this process, how do you – as from previous installation(s) – or ephemera – are left
an artist-curator – maintain a clear authorial voice? behind for the next artist to work with. Could you
Perhaps you could talk about the recent Mike Nelson perhaps elaborate on how this functions; are all the
exhibition in relation to this question. artists you invite satisfied with traces from previous
artists? How is this part of your practice as an artist?
GW: I’m ok with not maintaining a clear
authorial voice but being affected by others voices. In GW: We were immediately interested in the
fact I’m more than ok with it, I desire it. For Puppet gallery as a cumulative environment, a space to be
Show I feel completely affected by the voices of constructed over time; we weren’t going to make
Heather & Ivan Morison and Celine and Tom’s something that would just be ready to go and stay
thoughts on what the role of the puppet is. It’s quite that way forever. Our alteration to the space could
liberating to speak from another point of view, to use only be the beginning, getting the right trajectory
another voice. Collaboration allows that, encourages going. As Peter Nadin said ‘Walls don’t stay as walls,
that. Working with Mike Nelson is a conscious things happen to them, things are put on them. So
choice to work with an artist not known to collabo- why not let the’ thing evolve, let it continue, and see
rate but who deals with context in very sophisticated what happens? 3 In most galleries so much impor-
ways. With Nelson’s M6 made for Eastside Projects, tance is put on creating a hallowed space for the next
curated by me, you experience an artwork by Mike exhibition, making a force field of protection around
Nelson where he alters and incorporates Eastside the gallery that distinguishes it from the rest of the
Projects into his artwork. Nelson decided to take world. It’s a funny thing to change a space only to
away many of the long term artworks in the space make a protected environment for the next person to
and in effect replace them with a large twelve metre come along—it seems incredibly perverse and I
by twelve metre shot blasted concrete plinth ten realised if you do that continuously, you just get
centimetres tall and weighing thirty six tonnes! Nel- gallery fatigue, you begin to understand too much
son’s alteration to our space becomes our reality and what that gallery is made of and the place no longer
66 Issue 19 / June 2013

has any meaning. The question for us was whether Kong. As you were invited to represent Birmingham –
there is also a fatigue of endless possibilities, of in relation to the theme of hospitality – how did you
change and transformation. El Lissitzky speaks of an select work to best exemplify this broad theme?
equilibrium that you might try to achieve in exhibi-
tion making, and the idea of the long term artworks
in the gallery is a questioning of this notion of an
equilibrium of art, a flux of forces that are all related.
I suppose the space also acts as a growing

archive of its own production and evolution. There
was an interesting point for me in Curtain Show and
the installing of Tacita Dean’s work, Darmstadter
Werkblock, when her assistant could not understand
why the wall was the way it was. The wall was con-
structed of fragments of Joanne Tatham and Tom
O’Sullivan’s artwork — Does your contemplation of
3
the situation fuck with the flow of circulation, and DJ
Simpson’s wallpaper work — Disc 001 Real Grey
from Abstract Cabinet Show, and it was difficult to GW: I was personally invited by Sally Tallant
explain how while being the remainder of an art- (Director of the Liverpool Biennial) to produce a
work, it was also part of the gallery and the existing Birmingham section of City States but very late on in
conditions that we wanted Tacita’s film to work the process of the Biennial coming together. I wasn’t
within. Once it was clear that there was a congruent asked to represent Birmingham, I took it on myself
relationship between the space and the subject mat- and with my fellow cultural leaders in Birmingham
ter in Tacita’s own film of the relationship between to do that. We do want to represent the city and to
Joseph Beuys’s work and the space it existed within, hopefully transform the city through those represen-
he was happy with it, and didn’t even want to paint tations. Saying that, this was a fairly simple set up
over other areas we thought could be fixed up! Peo- with no resources from the Biennial to make any-
ple seem to need to create a difference between what thing happen content wise. I put the idea to the We
is considered artwork and what is not, as if the gal- Are Eastside consortium that we are part of, we were
lery context itself was not work and could be part of establishing it in 2008, and the group decided
ignored. As if something like our gallery office, Pleas- this was a good situation to present something and to
ure Island by Heather & Ivan Morison, was some- work together. The group consisted of Eastside Pro-
thing you could ignore, while of course it is in every jects, Ikon Gallery, Grand Union, Capsule, Fierce
single one of our exhibitions. It is difficult to explain Festival and Flat Pack Festival. It’s a dynamic group-
until people come to Eastside Projects; the space just ing of focussed people from very different types of
makes sense when you are part of it. Perhaps this is organisations, and we all participated in a Cultural
because it is so far from a white cube, and all the Leadership Programme together in 2010-11. I co-
layers of the making of the space are apparent and ordinated the project and each organisation contrib-
overlaid, making it too complex to read from a dis- uted and selected a work by an artist they had
tance. worked with for the overall project. The title, The
Magic City, came from an artwork by BAZ an artist
Every artist has a different response and some- collective here in Birmingham where they are pro-
times they remove things, respond, adapt, add to, posing to remake a large sign from Birmingham
demand or just accept. It is a negotiation and some of Alabama that welcomes people to the city with the
those negotiations become artworks, some don’t words, BIRMINGHAM THE MAGIC CITY.
Some bits of the building become sites where art
exhibits new properties some don’t. We included a work by David Rowan, an artist
who had had won the ESP commission for the Sec-
MB/MN: In 2012 you were invited to be part ond Gallery earlier in the year and had made a very
of “City States”, as part of the Liverpool Biennial. This strong film work, filming underground in the Dig-
particular part of the programme took place in a beth area where the gallery is based. ESP (Extra
former Royal Mail sorting office and featured several Special People) is our associate members programme
cities, including Wellington, Lisbon, Oslo and Hong and so the chance to present a work by a Birming-
67 Issue 19 / June 2013

ham artist that we had already invested in made a lot removing what has come before completely but
of sense. The variety of works was strong with a instead building on what was there before, upcycling,
collection of Grind Core fanzine material presented rethinking, adapting and working within and around
by Capsule attracting a lot of attention. In a way it is essential here in Birmingham as the previous idea
was a light project, done in quite a fun way but each of FORWARD has failed to produce the right condi-
organisations ethos and function could be seen tions for a successful city. We think that LAYERED
through the works included. It was also a quick will provide the way for the city to be successful now
attempt to pull together some energy to show how and this idea of LAYERED makes sense so much for
we could do so much more given time and resources post-industrial contexts. We must build on the con-
and generated some very useful conversations city ditions that are there and make new conditions out
wide for how the city should be prepared to take of them, engineer and artist hand in hand. Our next
advantage of the networks that we have available to goals are to develop this layering on a larger scale
us. In this case the city couldn’t respond to fund such perhaps, to prove how art can work beyond post-
an opportunity given the timeframe but others were, industrialised regeneration, to develop Eastside
Birmingham City University, Visit Birmingham and Projects further and continue to produce art in a way
others were able to contribute small amounts to that makes the city work better.
support the project and each organisation chipped in
a small amount. The publication part was useful to
have. The exhibition part was quite compromised Notes
and basically based on turning up and making the 1 O’Neil, P. (2012) The Culture of Curating and
best of the situation. But there was a good spirit and the Curating of Culture(s), pg. 105
a very nice invitation from the Biennial team. 2 To be published in the forthcoming, Gavin
Wade, UPCYCLE THIS BOOK, 2013, Sternberg.
In terms of the theme we exemplified it 3 Céline Condorelli and Peter Nadin, conversa-
through our collaboration as a cultural consortium tion at Nadin’s home in Lower Manhattan, July 12,
but apart from that I don’t think we responded to the 2009.
theme at all. It didn’t really seem to be the point! In
many ways it was more politics than art production Caption
but I think that was pretty clear really and we used 1 Eastside Projects User’s Manual Draft 5,
humour to make that point. Page 1, edited by James Langdon 2012 published by
Eastside Projects.
MB/MN: Both Liverpool and Birmingham were 2 Mike Nelson, M6, 2013, Blown-out tyres
once heavily industrialised, this led to their economic on shot blasted concrete, altered gallery.
successes. Since the 1990s biennials have appeared 3 Foreground: Tacita Dean, Darmstädter
across the world in post-industrial cities, taking Werkblock 2007, 16mm colour film, optical sound, 18
advantage of the range of empty warehouses and minutes, continuous loop. Background: Joanne
factories to display contemporary art. As a cultural Tatham & Tom O’Sullivan / DJ Simpson. Adapted
producer how do you consider the implications for scenery (Eastside Projects) 2009. Painted and wallpa-
curating exhibitions in these post-industrial contexts? pered MDF panels reused to construct gallery walls.
4 Heather & Ivan Morison, You Stay Away
GW: Currently James Langdon and I are work- From Me. You Hear. 2013 Billboard poster on Bill-
ing on the new Draft Users Manual and James had board Facade of Eastside Projects.
been developing an idea to change the coat of arms
and motto of Birmingham City. It appears to be quite
unknown, weirdly, that on the coat of arms of Bir-
mingham there are two figures, called supporters,
one is an engineer and one is an artist. I think this is
really quite significant. My city has an artist on its
coat of arms. Maybe a lot of coats of arms have artists
on but I never knew that before James proposed it.
James has proposed, in relation to what we do as
Eastside Projects and how we are useful to the city,
that the motto of Birmingham is updated from FOR-
WARD to LAYERED. The idea of layering and not
68 Issue 19 / June 2013

Gavin Wade is Director of Eastside Projects,

Birmingham, an artist-curator and publisher of Strategic
Questions. In 2010 he received the Paul Hamlyn Founda-
tion Breakthrough Fund Award for exceptional cultural
entrepreneurs. He has curated solo exhibitions with Gunilla
Klingberg, Mike Nelson, Yangjiang Group, William Pope.L,
Dan Graham, Carey Young, Liam Gillick, Joanne Tatham
& Tom O’Sullivan, Nathan Coley and Bas Jan Ader.
Curated projects include: ‘Painting Show’ (2011-12),
Eastside Projects; Public Structures, Guang Zhou Triennial,
China (2005); and ‘In the Midst of Things‘, Bournville
(1999). Books include UPCYCLE THIS BOOK (2013)
Sternberg; Has Man A Function In Universe? Book Works
(2008); and The Interruptors: A Non-Simultaneous Novel,
Article Press (2005).
69 Issue 19 / June 2013

FUCKING GOOD ART On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Fucking Good Art on

their publication “Italian
Conversations: Art in
the age of Berlusconi”
interviewed by Sheena Greene
The publication Italian Conversations: Art in the age of Berlusconi 2012
started with an invitation from the Nomas Foundation in Rome, who were interested in an
outsider perspective into the complexity of the Italian contemporary art world, it’s spaces,
people and models for culture vis a vis the current political and economic crisis. The funding
came from a variety of public and private sources from Italy and the Netherlands. Rob
Hamelijnck & Nienke Terpsma put themselves in the position of being outsiders in a local
context, but they are insiders in the arts field and the art world.
From January to May 2011 the authors travelled to seven different cities and
regions in Italy where they had local contacts and well-informed guides, in the book, who
put together an itinerary loosely following the model of the Grand Tour with the aim to
explore and research the contemporary artistic, social and political scene from the perspec-
tive of visual artists.
Sheena Greene: How do you work together as to A5 sheet of pink paper – in between the maga-
a duo, how are the tasks and roles performed? Do zines we still publish the zines – printed by our
you maintain your own practice outside of your col- printer and friend De Boog in Rotterdam. The first
laboration? years we did Fucking Good Art at the same time as
our individual art practice: Nienke was a photogra-
Rob Hamelijnck: Working together you learn pher, and I was making text-based video and com-
by doing. Certainly we are equal partners in our FGA puter works. After 2 years we were too busy with
collective. We are both the artists and editors and FGA; it took over and we let it happen. We went with
Nienke is also a designer. She did her masters in the flow, and this felt quite good actually. Fucking
Typography at the famous Werkplaats Typografie in Good Art worked, this was a happy experience, it has
Arnhem with Karel Martens and Wigger Bierma. I a dynamic, people are interested in reading our con-
do the internet stuff and sound editing, often writing versations, and we want to share what we find.
applications for residencies etc. Together we tran-
scribe and edit the conversations, and give feedback SG: What was your motivation to start the
on the things we write. From the beginning Fucking collective in the first place. Were you looking for a
Good Art was learning-by-doing. Sometimes we new creative direction when you started FGA?
make jokes that we founded our own “master” or
“PhD” degree program, and at the same time we are RH: Yes we were, and still are. That’s why we
the director, editor-in-chief, assistant, coffee lady/ playfully connected to Goethe who had embarked on
man, and toilet cleaner in one. his Grand Tour because he had lost faith and was
looking or hoping for a rebirth. We sometimes also
We started publishing the Fucking Good Art feel lost in this confused art world dominated by
zine in December 2003. The format was an A3 folded money, up to the point that we almost lost our belief
70 Issue 19 / June 2013

in art. So you could say that our travels are to bring for the European grants for cultural projects, bring-
back our belief in art. ing people back to their region of origin, and so on.
Nienke Terpsma: The earlier editions were In Italy there are well functioning local art
quite different. We started publishing the fanzines on worlds, or eco systems, with private initiatives, public
paper and online, as pamphlets for art critique, to initiatives, around 50 commercial galleries and 20
invite “makers” to write about art exhibitions and independent project spaces, so it is double edged. To
shows in project spaces but also in galleries and get onto another platform you need to go to Milan,
museums. There were so many small exhibitions or something that many people do, is to study
nobody would write about. We are not academics but abroad. On other hand we were told that it is very
thought that maybe artists have other things to say possible to have a sustainable practice at a local level.
about artwork than those with academic back-
grounds. We are interested in going over these bor- SG: Did the concept of the Eighteenth century
ders and seeing what differences occur in the differ- “Grand Tour” for aristocratic tourists, accompanied
ent fields. by local “ciceroni” tour guides, help you develop your
field trip and did you do much research into historical
SG: Italian Conversations: Art in the age of Ber- travel journeys?
lusconi, is an art travelogue of seven selected cities
whose focus is an exploration of the alternative, frag-
mented and varied creative solutions to an art system
surviving the pressures of political, social and eco-
nomic crisis throughout Italy. Did the brief from
Nomas differ from that of your previous publications?
How did you decide on the format for the seven
different cities?
NT/RH: The brief was interesting for us, as the

situation in Italy seemed relevant for a wider audi-
ence in the arts. The decline of public institutions, a
1
right wing populist government and the cultural
policies that come with it, are things that are happen-
ing all over Europe. We thought that it would be NT/RH: Yes of course we were aware that the
interesting for people in other North European coun- Grand Tour is a commonly used theme and although
tries, who were starting to face similar issues in cul- we played with that, it was quite tongue & cheek. The
tural policies that Italy had been dealing with for theme is so often used throughout the art world. In
twenty years. It posed many curious questions, very FGA#10, The Interviews Catherine David said to us
much in line with our interests. ‘Art is not tourism.’ The Grand Tour is a very inter-
esting history of course, and we read about it to some
We liked the idea that the close collaboration extent. However we didn’t have much time for the
would make it possible to create a dialogue of per- many historical treasures of Italy during this trip. We
spectives, between insiders and outsiders, rather than were quite busy going from basement gallery to
just presenting the perspective of outsiders, involving white painted off space, to talk with people who are
the ‘cicerones’ in each city in the editorial process. trying to formulate and actually experiment alterna-
tive ways of working in the arts.
Nomas wanted us to visit the seven cities
because these cities have such different cultures. We SG: Why did you decide to produce this work
did think that it would be too much, but we liked the as a book, did you consider producing an exhibition?
idea. The structure was proposed by Nomas, but was
discussed and refined with choices made together. NT/RH: Interesting question, because we’re so
Nomas is based in Rome so that is very different to happy with the magazine as an independent space,
an art space in Milan. Milan had to be included outside of the “white cube”. We like books, you can
because it’s Milan and everybody throughout Italy take them with you, open them when you feel like it,
thinks that is where everything in the art world hap- and their distribution is relatively simple and afford-
pens. Puglia is interesting for different reasons, like able. But we have been thinking for some time now
71 Issue 19 / June 2013

about alternative ways to develop our research other You could say our art practice is out in the
than through print publishing. We like publishing, so “expanded field” of art. It is not always easy. There
we will keep doing this, but expanding into space are still many people who have very conservative
would be another experience and change the role of ideas about what art is and what it is not, and how it
the publication. This could be interesting; in our case should look. Fucking Good Art could be understood
it will not be a “catalogue”, it will be an independent with historical references to the 1970s, the tradition
object. of text works and artists’ publications and magazines.
We had a plan to, in addition to Art in the Age SG: I was struck by many of your interviewees’
of Berlusconi; to make a huge structure built up of ‘an comments on the poor quality of art education cur-
institute of contemporary art in Italy’. A large scale rently in Italy; yet some of these people who are
model of independent spaces and collectives, all lecturers, artists, curators and critics came across as
pasted together into one building, to show that there having high levels of critical analysis and original
is an other important structure of independent points of view. Professor Concetto Pozzato, a retired
spaces. There are many art worlds, not just “the” art Professor of art from Bologna Academy of Art states,
world. “A great teacher teaches what he doesn’t know”
What are your opinions of the art education in Italy
This structure, or sub culture, is what we are and how does it compare to that of Holland?
very interested in: we talk about artist-run, curator-
led, off-off, alternative, independent, no-budget, NT/RH: We cannot have any judgment or
low-budget, high-budget, self-funded, non-profit, claim any knowledge of art education in Italy, we can
private foundation, discursive space, project space, only tell you about the opinions of the people we
art spaces, etc. spoke to from the art field regarding the art schools.
What all these spaces have in common is that What we did find interesting is that we met a
they support experimentation, research, production lot of artists that had other backgrounds; they stud-
and intellectual debate. Without these private initia- ied sociology or medicine, or archaeology, or archi-
tives (and some galleries belong to this group too) tecture, but never studied at an art academy. This is
there would be no contemporary art scene in Italy. actually quite an interesting phenomenon. We know
of two friends who are academics and recently
The reason we want to repeatedly show the decided to become artists because in their own field
independent spaces is that they are a fundamental there is no work in the first place, and if they find
alternative to the growing dominance of the art work, they experience a lack of creative space in their
market. The problem is that the (art) market has fields. It’s interesting also that there are people who
become the criterion by which works of art are feel the need to start schools due to a perceived lack
judged. We are against that. The Venice Biennale of good education. In Italy the lack they describe
should not be an art fair. seems to be mainly about a connection to the art
field. People say it is out-dated, unconnected and not
SG: Do you see your role as being like the realistic about the art world today.
curator, by researching various elements and practices
and assembling them together? In Italy there are also private institutions with
a different approach to art education. One of the
NT/RH: Yes we see what you are aiming at. most well known is Cittadellarte Fondazione Pisto-
There is a resemblance with how curators work. It is letto, but also Young Curators Residency Project at
not really important for us. As artists we have the Fondazione Sandretto Re Rebaudengo, Spinola
freedom to occupy different fields. On the other Banna in Turin, and Fondazione Antonio Ratti in
hand artists have always been doing research in and Como to name a few. People now start private art
through art. Not long ago a good friend asked us courses, like summer schools. Also in Berlin Auto-
when we were going to curate our first show, because center has for the second year planned a summer
he had the impression that would be a natural step to course. The students, who might or might not have
make, and because after almost 9 years of collaborat- studied art, get a complementary education.
ing with other artists our network is really big.
72 Issue 19 / June 2013

SG: Having just visited the Milan Art Fair without a budget, exploring different ways of making
(2013) do you think that a public institution for con- and sharing art outside of the mainstream.
temporary art in Milan would be able to compete, Notes
and to offer the same vibrancy, vitality and energy of 1 That was the case in Spring, 2011. Less is
what is currently on offer through the non-public known about the current situation especially the
sector? increasing economic and political crisis.
NT/RH: Perhaps the fact you find this vitality

and energy around the art fair rather than in the Captions
public institutions is just an indicator of where the 1 Pile of transcripts, test-versions and dum-
power and the money are concentrated at the mies for ‘Art in the Age of Berlusconi’.
moment. In your question you differentiate between 2 Post-print handwork; a stamp on the side,
public and non-public. We noticed that in some the poster (“Genealogy of Damnatio Memoriae Italy
countries people make a division between profit and 1947—1993”, artist contribution by Roman artist duo
non-profit, in others between institutions and inde- Goldiechiari) folded and glued in, and the question-
pendents, in Italy people differentiate between pri- aire for Napoli artist Ciro Vitale inserted.
vate and state, with the knowledge that the marriage 3 ’A note on the English’, a contribution by
between state and big business is quite clear. Talking translator and novelist Vincenzo Latronico
about art spaces you could also divide between big
budget and small budget. An art foundation of a
fashion company for instance can be non-profit but Dutch artists, editors and non-academic free-style
with a huge budget. researchers Rob Hamelijnck and Nienke Terpsma are best
known as editors of Fucking Good Art, founded in Decem-
Anthropologist David Graeber in his book ber 2003. They are based in the Metropolitan area Rand-
Debt: The First 5000 Years argues that the dichotomy stad (Rotterdam), and Berlin. Fucking Good Art is a
between state and market is a false one, and that travelling artists’ magazine or editorial project for research
states created markets. We also confuse the notions in-and-through art, both on paper and online. The paper
‘public’ and ‘state’, but it’s not so clear anymore if state edition ranges from an A3 pamphlet to publications in
institutions represent the public realm. In Italy it book format. In addition, Fucking Good Art makes web
seems they are not perceived like that. In Italy many radio broadcasts, and video works. We are interested in:
‘public’ institutions have no budget; and we are told oral history, ethnography, documentary film, new modes of
there is a big lack of cooperation and trust between investigative art and journalism, counter- and sub cultures,
the institutions, private initiatives and private indi- self-organisation and DIY strategies, art and resistance,
viduals. and anarchism. We have a participatory strategy and are by
nature highly sensitive to the context we are in.
At our presentation at the ZHdK we showed In the past, the artists settled for shorter or longer
a short video made in PAN – Palazzo Arti Napoli. periods in, among other places, Munich, Berlin, Dresden,
PAN was set up about 5 years prior with a big budget Copenhagen, Riga, Basel, Zurich, São Paulo, the Harbor of
and high expectations, but the money has been Rotterdam, Tbilisi, and recently in Geneva (Feb-May 2013)
pulled out due to cutbacks and politics. Curator Olga to make editions of Fucking Good Art on the basis of the
Scotto di Vettimo was now running PAN with no local context and in a constantly changing collective of
funding because they were in between elections. 1 artists, curators, makers and thinkers.
It’s interesting that in Italy some people in the

arts argue that they have to claim back the public
institutions instead of working in their own private
spaces. Others say to forget the institutions, but let’s
create a new structure to connect all these small
private initiatives!
In our book there is a list, compiled together

with all the partners, of approximately 135 initiatives
or aesthetic zones in the 7 territories we visited, but
there are certainly many more People do miracles
73 Issue 19 / June 2013

74 Issue 19 / June 2013

Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne P. Doderer On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Authorship (ext)ended:
artist, artwork, public and
the curator: Ute Meta Bauer
and Yvonne P. Doderer
interviewed by Annemarie Brand
and Monika Molnár
Annemarie Brand & Monika Molnár: We are therefore not less curators and leaders of art institu-
currently at the Württembergischer Kunstverein tions are organizing panels and talks functioning as a
Stuttgart, where the exhibition, Acts of Voicing. On the platform of exchange between producers, intermedi-
Poetics and Politics of the Voice (October 12, 2012 – Jan- ators and recipients.
uary 13, 2013) is showing. We would like to ask you
both the role of the audience in an exhibition. In the One the one hand, and at a certain point, the
context of this exhibition, the voice of the artist and public is also not alone. For example, while visiting
the public are particularly important. Is it possible to an exhibition it is not always possible for direct com-
think about this as a triangle; between the artists, munication to occur between artist, curator and the
audience and the curator? public. Therefore, curators and directors of art insti-
tutions are organizing panels and talks, functioning
Ute Meta Bauer: I have a problem with the as a platform of exchange between producers, inter-
term audience, I would rather talk about a “public” - mediators and recipients. And at the end of the day
the attempt of artists, curators to establish a public maybe it is even, like Roland Barthes said in the
space. Because an audience to me is kind of passive. Death of the Author (1967)1, the issue that the public
If you talk about a public you begin to establish a creates its own exhibition by its own ways of “read-
dialog among artists, curators and those who join a ing” an exhibition.
discourse, a crucial triangle. If I curate an exhibition
I’d rather address a public than an audience. UMB I don’t think the public is ever alone.
Yvonne P. Doderer: I agree. YPD Not ever, but there are moments where
the public is alone in and with the exhibition and the
UMB: It is about dialogue. If you exhibit a art works.
work of art, you react to something. This dialogue
engages different languages. But it is also about an UMB As an artist you are also alone in the
exchange of experiences. studio and as a curator when you develop your con-
cept you are also usually alone.
YPD: On the other hand, and at a certain
point, the public is also alone, for example, during AMB & MM: Do you mean alone physically or
the visit of an exhibition: Because not in every in an intangible way?
moment is there a direct communication and inter-
action between artist, curator and public possible -
75 Issue 19 / June 2013

YPD I mean in both ways.
UMB The dialogue is what you produce, some-

thing what you generate.
YPD The – or better to say – a dialog is created

by the exhibition already - although it might be not
outspoken or being developed on inner level of
reception.
UMB The artists generate a work, a position

and the curator discovers the artist or a particular
work, and then they communicate to a particular
imaginary audience. This doesn’t work that easy for
me, its more complex. Artists are reacting upon what
is going on around them, even if they say, “I am an
artist with a unique position”. Also a curator has her
or his own agenda. I usually have an idea of what I
want to show, and then I look at which artist corre-
sponds with that and I even have an idea of who is
going to see it. I think there is a triangle, but it might
not be spoken communication.
2
AMB & MM How did your artistic collabora- entering together the field of production. At one
tion begin? point you recognize the people who come to attend
your exhibitions and events are those who constitute
YPD I do not remember exactly. Ute invited a public. And what is crucial: conversations and
me when she was the director at the Künstlerhaus collaborations generate friendships. For example the
Stuttgart, which in those days was starting to be well exhibition Friends (1993) at the Künstlerhaus, was
known in the international art scene. exactly reflecting the situations that at some point
the audience transforms into a highly valuable com-
munity.
YPD Our next collaboration that developed

out of that was the project Raumstruktur for the
exhibition when tekkno turns to sound of poetry at the
Shedhalle Zurich 1994.2
UMB Yes, Sabeth Buchmann, Marion von

Osten and Juliane Rebentisch invited us to produce
the introduction text for this exhibition project. I
suggested to Yvonne to produce a texture rather than
a text, a kind of spatial narrative as a point of entry
1
and reference for the whole project and when tekkno
turns turns to sound of poetry.
UMB You also wrote for the magazine META
that I edited. This is the result of such triangle. I met YPD Moreover, it gave us a starting point, to
Yvonne first when she came to attend the exhibitions refer to what was going on during the 1970s. During
at Künstlerhaus Stuttgart and we shared conversa- these years a lot of crucial things happened - in tech-
tions along with other regular guests. Knowing your nology, in science, but also in society; for example
public, already establishes a dialogue. the women’s movement – second wave feminism got
strong. In architecture the debate about structural-
This is how our collaboration began. It’s not ism began, in natural sciences biology, biotechnology
just about a having a conversation; it’s also about and genetic research replaced physics as the leading
76 Issue 19 / June 2013

discipline - a lot of issues we are dealing with today Today for the first time there is a generation
originated in the 1970s. It is a indeed an interesting of trained curators, and of course this changes the
period, to have a look again into this decade - that’s practice of making exhibitions. In my generation,
what our project was about. We repurposed the and that was widely the case, curators were trained
House of Cards, a modular system originally created art historians, artists, writers, former gallerists, you
by Ray and Charles Eames, by replacing their visuals name it. My generation produced what one could call
with images and texts from the 1970s. Additional we “amateur” curators who entered the field with a
published a text-image collage in the art magazine “learning by doing” approach. But my generation
ANYP edited by minimal club, that was later had a strong interest in what curating could and
reprinted in a publication by curator Ine Gevers and should mean in practice and theory, and that in a
artist Jeanne van Heeswijk.3 way initiated curatorial education and courses. It is
kind of a similar process as it was the case with the
first generation of artist exploring video and perfor-
mance as a new practice. Those artists such as Joan
Jonas, Bruce Nauman, Dara Birnbaum, Yvonne
Rainer came from painting, were sculptors, were
architects or dancers etc and experimented and
experimented with this new media. This is how I
came to curating as someone initially educated as a
stage designer and artist. It was a new territory to
explore, a new medium of artistic practice.
AMB & MM: Ute, in a talk at the Monash

University in Melbourne you mentioned that in the
past it was the artist who curated exhibitions or gen-
erated context to present their work; and the role of
curator didn’t exist at all. Do you think that in the 4
present moment, the role of the artist has merged

with the role of the curator4? Take someone like Hans Ulrich Obrist, who
is born in Switzerland, and who had this idea at
UMB Kind of. A century ago, artist move- pretty young age that he wanted to be an visionary
ments would present themselves in shows that they curator like Harald Szeemann. Obrist was back then
conceived as artists. There weren’t any curators. It attending the renowned management school of St.
was the artists themselves who would develop highly Gallen, and he visited many well known artist with
interesting concepts and install their exhibitions in a the plan to become a curator beyond what in those
very particular way. Today the field of curating is days determined a museum conservator or “Kustos”.
more diversified; there are still many artists who keep In those days the notion of a curator the way the
control the way their exhibitions are curated, most term is understood today, simply did not exist or was
likely if it comes to a solo show. Most artists have a not recognized as such, Without sounding to roman-
very distinct idea of how their exhibition should tic – to be a curator was an obsession for my genera-
look. There circulates still this myth “curators domi- tion, rather that a profession.
nate artists,” but in reality, there are not too many
artists a curator can dominate. Artists have pretty YPD Indeed Hans Ulrich was also influenced
strong egos. by you.
UMB Hans Ulrich?
77 Issue 19 / June 2013

YPD I think so, no? YPD You can add sexual identity as well, for
example in the art world you can find way more gay
UMB No, I wouldn’t say so. He was very inter- men in influential positions or as well acknowledged
ested and supported the projects I did, but his big artists while you find significantly less lesbians. Even
inspiration was Harald Szeemann and his notion of more so there exists still a male heterosexual domi-
the curator as “intellectual guest worker”, but also nance, but also a gay male dominance. If we talk
Jean Christophe Amman and Kasper Koenig. But his about race, class, gender, we can’t exclude to reflect
early mentors were artists including Roman Signer, about sexual identity. Although the art scene is con-
who was based in St. Gallen as Hans Ulrich, as well sidered a much more open and pleasant scene as all
as Peter Fischli and David Weiss. the other professional fields, it is nevertheless not
completely free from societal categories and norms
AMB&MM How does it feel to be a female especially if it comes to money and power.
artist-curator in the male dominated art world? Do
you think anything has changed?
UMB I would say, since about ten years things

have recognisably changed. Today women are direc-
tors of museums and biennales. There is still inequal-
ity, but the demography has definitely improved,
actually more in the curatorial field than in the art-
ist’s field, where men still are the top sellers. where
for the first The first time women to direct the Venice
Biennale were Maria de Corral and Rosa Martinez5.
It required obviously two women to equal one man
for the president of the Biennale. Bice Curiger6 was
the first women to be fully in charge, more than a
decade after Catherine David was the first woman to
direct a Documenta. In that respect the field has
changed, but there is still a “but….”.
YPD If it comes to artists, I recently read a

5
statistic compiled in Germany about the income of
artists, comparing male to female. These statistics are
from the years 1995 to 20007 and I do not think that UMB It’s also about strong networks, how
a lot has changed. Women earn about one third less influential certain networks are, there is a reason why
than their male counterparts in the arts - similar to two decades ago there was quite a log of debated
most other areas of employment, where women earn about “old boys networks”. There is not less pressure
up to 28% less than men for the very same work. in terms of local politics on the big players in the
museum scene because of their strong trustees and
UMB What I find dramatic and what we should collector base. In a number of Latin American coun-
also not forget is about how many professional peo- tries, such as Brazil, Mexico, there is indeed a strong
ple, internationally, are in indeed in the position to collector base. They want to see the art works they
define a field. How many people do you have from collect to be visible in major museums ranging from
Africa, from Latin America, from other places, who MoMa to Tate Modern, they support those museums
are really recognized and respected as top curators, and this creates the conditions for art history to be
especially of female? I think there is still a gap. rewritten and more inclusive. Unfortunately its less
due to the impact of scholars in the field who have
You have some influential women in so called for this for decades, including the periodical
called power positions, but they most often work in Third Text, co-founded by Rasheed Areen to give an
the USA. It is more difficult for female curators in example.
Latin America, the Middle East to serve in a top
position, if you are belong to a family that is already It’s much more complicated today than it was
in power. Sorry to say. in the past. In Eastern Europe for example, women
have been a major force in the cultural sector.
78 Issue 19 / June 2013

Women directed many Eastern European museums YPD But until today this exclusion and invisi-
but it was considered then a less powerful field. In bility of female productivity is continuing. Have a
terms of the economies in Eastern Europe to be a look into art lexica, you still find less female painters
museum director was not considered the same than listed for example. The question is not only about
to direct MoMA, the Met or the Louvre. You also re-inscribing female artists into art history to write
have a close look at societal conditions; when is it history. An exhibition at the Schirn Kunsthalle in
attractive to hold a certain position? If we look a little Frankfurt in 20088 was focusing on female impres-
deeper one understands the economic setting, this sionists. On one hand this effort is positive in order
needs to be made more transparent and we need to to close the gap in art historical narratives, but on the
be aware of those contexts and conditions. other hand such exhibitions bare the danger of posi-
tive discrimination, the female artist becomes a kind
Specifically for students at times it’s not easy to of “specific species”. The discussion about gender,
understand why things are the way they are. If you queer and transgender issues is by no means at an
understand the structure pattern underneath, it end point – not in the everyday, not in the art world.
makes it easier to oppose such structures. In order to
change the pattern, or disturb such systemic fixtures UMB Yvonne, you are actually teaching gender
in a constructive way, you have to be familiar with its studies as a professor in Duesseldorf. In the late nine-
code. This is why theoretical education is so crucial ties at the Academy of Fine Vienna we were also also
also in our field, its kind of equivalent like computer introducing gender studies and colonial studies as a
programming or structural engineering, you need to required subject into the fine art curriculum. On the
know how its functioning in order to invent it anew.. other side we discussed that a focus on gender and
postcolonial reading should be part of every class
AMB&MM and subject we teach. For example, my colleague
How do you confront global and transcendent Sarat Maharaj is an art historian by training, and as
problems related to art production, as women? What he is of indian origin and grew up in South Africa.
are the gestures that made a radical turn in art his- He is often asked to talk about art in India. But
tory? besides working indeed on post colonial debates and
its challenges, he is a specialist in the work of Marcel
UMB There is currently an exhibition at the Duchamp and has been close to Richard Hamilton
Staatsgalerie Stuttgart, Mythos Atelier (2012/2013) over decades, he is kind of a “Joyceian”, and that
that is introducing the importance and relevance of raises often a big surprise even amongst his art his-
the studio of the artist on artistic production and tory peers.
how this changed over time. Indeed a highly interest-
ing subject. A colleague who saw the show told me YPD In terms of gender biology does not
that there are only two female artists included, determine how you use or not use power.
although this vast show is spanning several centuries.
No matter how you read this information – its telling And furthermore - the artistic and cultural
a lot: maybe female artists did not have documented fields are still open enough to offer various possibili-
studios on their own, maybe they shared it with male ties to introduce and produce a critical discourse
artists, maybe they centuries ago worked under a about various issues - although this potential and
male name. But in the last century women of course freedom is in danger as in the rest of our societies
had their own studios, even if small or maybe their and especially at universities. The economization of
kitchen functioned as such. Having access to produc- societies - successfully demanded and enforced by
tion determines the acceptance of being a female neoliberal politics - already demolished a lot of
artist, so of course all of those aspects are critical. spaces and possibilities to create other practices and
visions concerning life as well as art, culture and
Still twenty years ago, a gallery would tell knowledge production.
you straight in your face, that they are hesitant to
commit to female artists in their gallery programme, UMB I still see the role of cultural institutions
because they might have children and therefore a to serve as critical platforms, but it is less and less the
long term investment in their career is a bigger risk case. I sense that the current crisis around the globe
than supporting the career of a male artist. This are not only economical although for sure they are
luckily has changed. driven by it, but I also sense a spiritual crisis, the loss
of identities, ideologies and those getting reintro-
79 Issue 19 / June 2013

duced often in a very manipulative way. But in terms turns to sound of poetry”, Shedhalle Zurich, 1994
of art I experience a new ideology that is indeed the and Kunstwerke Berlin, 1995. Installation view from
art market, and the market intrinsically rules art the exhibition “Oh, My Complex. On Unease at
production. Art institutions in terms of acquisitions, Beholding the City”, Württembergischer Kunstverein
currently are very depended of developments on the Stuttgart, 2012.
market, they have to compete with potent private 2 Informationspace of “Bridge / The map is
collectors, the field became on the one side more not the territory”, a project commissioned by the
open, more global, more influential but also way working partnership Fleetinsel in cooperation with
more complicated. the Hamburg Department of Culture in 1997 – the
section “Bridge” was curated by Ute Meta Bauer in
MM & AMB: What would be your recommen- collaboration with the artist Fareed Armaly, who also
dation for the next generation of curators, if any? developed the overall design of the whole project.
Yvonne P. Do-derer participated with “Topology &
YPD: Meanwhile curating is taught at special Research – a folding map”.
courses, at academies and universities, it is no longer 3 Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne P. Doderer
a practice you have to develop by yourself. And an collaborated on this exhibition in 2001. More details
academization always incorporates a certain distance can be found here: http://www.firststory.net/
to the topic and to the people – in this case to the 4 Ute Meta Bauer; Yvonne P Doderer. “Raum-
artists and the public. Additionally institutions like struktur”. In: A.N.Y.P., Nr. 6, Minimal Club (Hg.), Berlin
universities and art academies like all scientific 1998
knowledge production operate within a specific 5 First Story – Women Building / New
power frame and field that determines the topics as Narratives for the 21st Century: View on Decide
well as the methods used to gain specific knowledge for Yourself by Women on Waves, Porto 2001
and to develop a certain practice. From my perspec- photo © Rita Burmester
tive these circumstances and power structures have
to be kept in mind and to be reflected critically.
Ute Meta Bauer is Associate Professor at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, USA
Notes and was educated as artist at the Hochschule für Bildende
1 See details under http://artblog.catherineho- Künste Hamburg where she received her Diploma with
man.com/roland-barthes-the-death-of-the-author- Honours in Visual Communication/Stage Design in 1987.
critical-summary/ Since 25 years she is a curator of exhibitions and presenta-
2 http://archiv.shedhalle.ch/dt/programm/ tions on contemporary art, film, video and sound, with a
zeitung/06/vonosten/index.shtml focus on transdisciplinary formats. She publishes regularly
3 Bauer, Ute Meta; Doderer, Yvonne P. “Raum- on artistic and curatorial practice and education, co-edited
struktur”. In: Gevers, Ine; van Heeswijk, Jeanne (eds.) Intellectual Birdhouse. Artistic Practice as Research
Beyond Ethics and Aesthetics. Sun Publishers, Nijmegen with Florian Dombois, Michael Schwab and Claudia
1997. Mareis (London, 2012) and as well World Biennale
4 The entire talk can be accessed here: http:// Forum No 1 – Shifting Gravity together with Hou
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMKo9dror4M Hanru (Ostfildern, Gwangju, 2013).
5 http://universes-in-universe.de/car/
venezia/bien51/english.htm; 51st Venice Biennial, Yvonne P. Doderer works in scientific, artistic
2005 and cultural fields as researcher, author, lecturer and
6 http://www.kunstaspekte.de/index. cultural producer. Currently she is Professor at the Univer-
php?action=webpages&k=9749 sity of Applied Sciences in Düsseldorf, visting lecturer at
7 http://www.kulturrat.de/detail. the Merz Academy in Stuttgart and head of the “Office for
php?detail=1293&rubrik=86 Transdisciplinary Research and Cultural Production“.
8 http://www.schirn-kunsthalle.de/ Doderer studied architecture and urban planning at the
Technical University of Stuttgart and completed her PhD
with excellence at the University of Dortmund, Faculty of
Captions Spatial Planning. Her research and production areas focus
1 Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne P. Doderer: on Urban and Spatial Theories, Gender, Media and Cul-
“Raumstruktur”, modular system (1994 – 1995). tural Studies as well as Contemporary Art.
Originally created for the exhibition “when tekkno
80 Issue 19 / June 2013

Tania Bruguera On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Tania Bruguera
Interviewed by Ashraf Osman
and Daniela N. Fuentes
Interviewed in December, 2012 at the Immigrant Movement International
offices in Queens, New York City
Ashraf Osman/Daniel F. Fuentes: I am very and all that. And for that we introduce art. We do
interested in your current project, Immigrant Move- presentations, like slideshows, on contemporary art
ment International. I’d like to know how it has been in the public sphere.
received in New York? It is very different from the
so-called “mainstream art world”, especially here in The New York Times wrote a big article on the
New York. This project puts an emphasis on providing project1; I didn’t communicate correctly what per-
assistance to immigrants, a minority group in our forming is, and the writer understood performance as
society. living with poor people, which is an offence for me. I
hope as a performance artist I’m a little more sophis-
Tania Bruguera: I’m very happy and very ticated than that; it’s just simplistic and too silly. For
focused on showing art in a specific way in this pro- me it was important to be really deep in the neigh-
ject. The whole project is an art piece; it proposes bourhood. Instead of living in Manhattan and com-
and questions, “Can art be useful?” This is a piece of ing here from 10am to 5pm, I will really make this
useful art. But the way in which the users of the my life, not just a project. This project needs to
project—because I don’t like participants for this become part of your life, if you are working here. I
project—they are not participating, because it’s not wanted to see the little details of what people say,
like a party, they come to, dance, and leave. This is what we are like, buying food next door, or having a
their life. People come here every day and they’re natural relationship with the community. I live here
family. And I know it sounds corny, and for people all the time, to be honest; I don’t wish to live in
who don’t do this kind of work it sounds fake or like Brooklyn, or anywhere else.
trying to sell the project. But it is that way, literally:
these are the people I live with. AO/DFF: Is it possible to even consider your
project as contemporary art? How do you mediate
I feel that useful art has two ways to be experi- this to your participants or users?
enced, one way is from the “art side”, which is, to
look at how the artist structures the project and how TB: We don’t state that, “this is contemporary
they have developed the idea. If you experience the art”. We take the point of view that this is a language
project from the user’s side, then for me, it’s more too, a communication tool. This person did this in
about, “what do I get from it?” It doesn’t matter if it the public sphere; this was the reaction it got from
is art or not. It feels to me that depending on the the people passing by. This is the reaction it got from
intensity of your involvement in the project you can authorities; this is the reaction it got long-term, after
get to one side or the other. Let’s say I do one work- the project was done, that’s the impact. So, art is
shop and you just come for the workshop. You come, coming to people here as a natural tool, not as an
you take the knowledge, and you leave. You come, unreachable practice that has a history that they
let’s say, to two workshops. You start coming to would never have access to.
“Make a Movement”, which is a very important part
of the project, the mobilizing area of the project. We I always use this example because it’s the clear-
have meetings and we talk about how to express est one: For the mothers in the community, we had
ourselves in the social sphere, the political sphere, one English class that was focused on English relat-
81 Issue 19 / June 2013

1 2
3 4
82 Issue 19 / June 2013

ing to art history, to address identity issues. That’s the ism of the art world. Some of your work has been
way we do workshops here, they never have one goal; criticised for the lack of documentation, compared to
we never teach just English, the class has at least two, other similar projects. In your previous long-term
when they are good three goals. By the end of the work, [Cátedra] Arte de Conducta [2002-2009], you set
class, they went to the Metropolitan Museum of Art up an art school in Havana, which you financed partly
to see art. But they were not scared; they loved it. through via the US, where you were teaching at the
They want to go back to the museum—not because time, and Cuba. Do you consider using the similar
they have to go to the museum, because it’s an art- difference in economies here, between the commer-
work and we’re artists. No, it’s because they created cial object-based part to finance the social non-object
their own emotional connection to art. I am against part?
having only one connection to art, which is a histori-
cized connection. Like, “Oh yes, I like art because I TB: I have to confess something. Yesterday in
know that this comes from three different previous the retreat my entire staff and people involved with
artworks and it’s a dialogue with the history of art.” the project were pressuring me to do objects to sell,
From the beginning, if anybody comes here we say, as a kind of residue of the project, to have a residual
“This is an art project, initiated by an artist, etc.” element. It’s complicated because I never had a lov-
Then we go on to what they want to hear, we say it ing relationship with the market. I think it’s a prob-
because we want to say it, we don’t want to misrepre- lem I have. I’m not proud of it; I think as an artist I
sent the project. People don’t really hear it because haven’t solved that. And I think it’s an integral part of
it’s not what they’re looking for. being in the art world. But I haven’t solved it because
I don’t want to give up. So I feel that every time I
AO/DFF: The project has become very well have come close to have a gallery or have a commer-
known, amongst artists, curators and other cultural cial show, I always feel violated because I think I
workers. How have you developed projects with haven’t had good luck. It’s like love: you can have ten
artists who wish to become part of Immigrant Move- lovers and never have love. I have not found so far a
ment International? person that understands my work and is in the com-
mercial area. I have still one gallery in Spain and she
TB: We’ve had some people who have pro- doesn’t know what to do with me, and she’s the best
posed projects, proposed workshops. And all the experience I had because she leaves me alone and
workshops are in the crossroads between the user says, “Do whatever you want in the gallery.” But she
and the art, and the social and the art—all of them. hasn’t sold anything. So I have become unfortunately
As I say, there are 3 intentions: one has to be artistic a prestige token artist for galleries instead of a com-
or related to art—and also it’s related to art because mercial artist for the gallery—which, in a way at the
we are questioning, what is the use of art? And what beginning, I was very honoured by. But on the prac-
is the way which you can introduce people to art? tical side I’m very frustrated. I had three galleries and
Art as a tool, as you said before. I left two of them. This one I didn’t leave because I
felt it’s going to look very bad if I leave all the galler-
The people who come from art, the observers, ies, like “Oh, she’s problematic.” And also she has
they have this idea where they, from afar, like you, never pushed me to do something I don’t want. So I
know about the project somehow, and then they read would love to one day find a gallerist or somebody in
about it, if they’re nice. If they’re good they have read the art world who will understand and have a theo-
more than just the New York Times article. I say all retical and academic conversation with me—not a
the time, “you have to come here, because you have money conversation—like, “let’s sit down and think
to feel it.” Then they come interact and, hopefully, about how the art transforms over time.” And even
they propose a workshop. And, if you propose a that transformation, there is a space for somebody to
workshop, the workshop is the exact point between acquire the process of transforming it—which is not
the two. If you are a user you are actually experienc- to objectify this.
ing art, and if you are an art person you are propos-
ing art. Usually it’s very hard, not everybody goes all AO: You began your artistic career with a Trib-
the way. ute to Ana Mendieta, which is an unusual, as you’re
starting not with your own individual work, but with
AO/DFF: It seems a lot of the difficulties that reinterpreting somebody else’s work. Did you do that
you’re describing are part of the project and how you on purpose?
want it to be: Independent, rejecting the commercial-
83 Issue 19 / June 2013

TB: I have to be honest: I’m not an artist who, me…They felt I was an eighteen years old girl and
before starting the work, spends six months thinking they were threatened that I was going to sell it or
and then does the work. At the time it started as a something. Now everybody is happy about re-enact-
very emotional thing, and it started because we were ing; but the tough time was when I was doing it.
introduced to her work; she was still alive, and I was
a student.
She was in the US then; I never met her. I have

a friend who says, “It’s because you never met her
your relationship was so intense.”
Basically we were a group of art students, and

were very much into art, discussing and reading all
the time. We started visiting established artists, who
were our professors, and were going to their houses
and having conversations with the classmates. One of
the people who were doing that was [Gerardo] Mos-
quera, who is a very well known critic in Cuba, and
he introduced us to Ana Mendieta’s work. It was
because another guy from the group was doing a
work that was very similar to what she was doing.
And he introduced him to her while we were all in
the room, and my first reaction was “Wow! A
woman!” Every artist we were introduced to ‘til then
was a man. She was a role model; I was the only girl
in the group. And then, he told us, ”We are going to
introduce you guys to her because she travels a lot.”
This was in ‘84 or ‘85.
And then, five or six months later, we went to

a lecture by Mosquera, and he says that Ana Mendi-
eta has died. It was very emotional for him because
he knew her and she had a big impact on the older
6
Cuban generation. And I was so shocked because I
am not meeting her; it is so sad. I didn’t understand
at the time the implication of her death, and every-
thing that came later. Then I started obsessing about
it and thought, “Ok, I want to know more about this The thing is, I was doing art that was question-
person.” ing what art is—not just “What is art?” because I am
not a formalist; but “What is art for?” I always
AO/DFF: After Tribute to Ana Mendieta you thought in terms of the uses of art. I was really enjoy-
went on to produce more individual work that wasn’t ing this kind of I-don’t-know-what-I-am-doing
directly referencing other artists, such as your perfor- situation.
mance The Burden of Guilt [1997-1999]. What com-
pelled you to make that shift? The other work I really like is the newspaper
[Memory of the Post-war, 1993-1994], because it was
TB: I have to say, for me the most important again the same gesture of non-authorship. I really
work I have done is Ana Mendieta, which is sad, that like it because I took over a resource that is not from
the first work I do is the most important. What I the art world, but it is a resource from power, which
liked so much about the first two works I did is that is information.
it was claimed they were a failure… I felt I was going
through a very interesting and challenging kind of AO/DFF: For that reasons would you say that
art practice, taking somebody else’s artwork, and some of the collaborations you became involved with
getting into trouble, Galerie Lelong wanted to sue
84 Issue 19 / June 2013

in Cuba became problematised. Would you consider when people accuse me of being a “provocateur”.
this to be a failure or a success? Because when I do things, I believe in what I am
doing, and I do not see any problem with it. It was a
TB: Well, it was a moment in which I was very intense and abusive consequence and I was only
introduced to responsibility. I realized that I couldn’t 23 or 22; so it was a lot. I even have a headache when
just do whatever I want; there are consequences if I think about it. So it was very intense because I felt
you do certain things and you have to deal with that. like I really lost his friendship, in the process.
The first time the Council, the official people AO/DFF: Do you think, in retrospect, that
from the art world, called me in [for questioning], I something so intense made you want to take sole
didn’t know that at the same time they called in a guy ownership of your projects or do just the opposite
that was working with me, doing the design. When I and diffuse that ownership?
got out and went home, there was a friend in my
house who said David was taken into questioning. I TB: I was very traumatized by the experience. I
went to his house and his mother made me feel so really enjoyed doing it because I really liked being
bad, saying “Look what you are doing! You are so with people and asking people, “Give me a thing for
irresponsible! Because of you, my kid has prob- the newspaper!” It felt so right. People were so
lems…” For girls it was easier to get away, but for excited and enthusiastic about it, and it got known.
men there is a bigger implication to get in trouble People were making photocopies—in Cuba for peo-
[with the authorities]. ple to make photocopies is not easy—and passing
along the newspaper. And everybody was passing
My father was pressured to bring me to the along the newspaper, and it was circulating the way I
secret police, I was interrogated in front of him by wanted, which is not in a museum but through peo-
those guys who I printed material about, where I ple. It actually got to people outside the art world,
printed it, who is sponsoring, who is behind it… I which was my main goal. It was great; everybody was
was so offended because I thought, what do you reading it! People who were not artists also knew
mean? I am not smart enough to do this? I felt about it and were reading it. I think infiltrating that
offended as an artist. It was my idea to do a newspa- sphere was very important—and that is from my
per; I am so proud of that. Do you mean somebody socialist background, that art is for everybody. But
from the CIA put this idea in my head? after that, I didn’t do anything for a while. And I have
to tell you something, now it is very easy to say, “Oh
It was very damaging, the aftermath of the I did the Ana Mendieta [series] and it was trans-
experience. I never really felt that I was doing some- gressing authorship”. But at the time it felt very diffi-
thing wrong, and that’s everything in my work. I cult, because everybody else was doing their own
never feel I am doing something wrong, so I hate etiquette work, their own labelled image, their own
85 Issue 19 / June 2013

personal work, and I am the only one who in that something that is thought about or expressed in
context didn’t want to do it. I felt I was not a real Cuba. It exists and actually is very present—even
artist; and I am not an artist because I am not able to more than here; but it is not how you normally inter-
come up with my own thing. pret politics or political art. You interpret your dia-
logue with the power structure of the government
AO/DFF: After this experience, did you then and their policies, the laws, and the macro-politics.
decide to assert yourself in your own work and your And when I came here, I started thinking about this
own authorial privileges? power relationship, and what is dominant and what
is submissive, and all this kind of thing. It was very
TB: I think it was not so much about author- confusing to me, and what happened is that the way
ship but about responsibility. I thought, “If I do my work was interpreted was as a feminist work.
something I am getting so many into trouble.” It was And I am feminist, but I don’t want my work to be
more that I was traumatized by the experience with identified in such an easy way, because I always fight
David. I thought if I get somebody into trouble it’s against reduction. Every time people come they’re
going to be hard; and then I decided I am going to do reducing things. Then you don’t do your process with
everything by myself. It will be only me responsible, the work, because you just assume and move on.
if something happens; I didn’t want to implicate
other people in problems. I think it was more
because of that that I focused on myself; but I didn’t
feel so comfortable. I mean, it feels good to do a
performance; it is an adrenaline [rush] that is amaz-
ing. I really liked it! But after I did it for a while, it
became like a practice and I didn’t like it anymore.
Also, I felt like I did performance because I wanted
people to have a memory to bring back home. But
then it became too “art”: the image and the photos,
and then they were publishing these photos every-
where. And I was thinking, it is not about the
photo…
8
AO/DFF: Is that why took yourself out of the

performance afterwards? Because the series you did Part of the criticism I got is, your work is
after, the Untitled [2000, 2002, 2007, 2009] and Tat- feminist because you are using yourself—this idea of
lin’s Whisper [2008, 2009] series, you weren’t in the the personal politics and the art history of the 70’s.
performance anymore. And I started to have problems because I don’t iden-
tify with this. Why, if woman is a figure that has been
TB: Exactly, I feel like the performance period used for liberty, equality, for other symbolic aims—
was torture for me. I feel amazing doing it—I really not that I think that was right—why can I only be
like doing performance, I have to be honest. But it reduced to my only personal story? And I cannot be,
was torture, because I felt like I did my healing pro- when I am performing, representing a concept? So it
cess in public, basically. I think that performance was a big fight with the professors. And then
period was a healing process from what happened. decided: ok, I am not a performance artist; I don’t
But I was tired of doing performance, and I felt I was want to be a performance artist. I don’t want to be in
in a circle. I felt nobody in Cuba was being honest the tradition of the American performance art or
with me about what they think about my work. Or if body art; I don’t care about body. It is not about the
they were, it was not the level I wanted; I wanted a body; it’s about the interaction, the social experience.
higher level of criticism. So I went back to art school; And then I thought, “I have to stop this.” The combi-
I came to the United States to study after that. nation of that and the idea that I have to take respon-
sibility of everything—and I was tired of that; it was
I had a different set of questioning, different a big burden, not to be able to do what I want to do
political aspects: in Cuba the political is the govern- because if I do it, bad things will happen—it was
ment; there is no idea of the personal political or intense. And then I realized: ok, I’ll do Behaviour
police. The power relation between you and me, or Art, Arte de Conducta; I don’t do performance. And
between the person who just came and me—it is not it was also a political gesture I had, when I left the
86 Issue 19 / June 2013

school, because I didn’t want to be analyzed by art Notes

historians in the tradition of the American perfor- 1 The article in question, “An Artist’s Perfor-
mance or body art. mance: A Year as a Poor Immigrant” by Sam Dolnick,
was published on May 18, 2011 and is available here:
AO/DFF: In that tradition of Behaviour Art, http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/nyregion/
where the audience’s behaviour in reaction to your as-art-tania-bruguera-lives-like-a-poor-immigrant.
installation or performance can be construed as the html
primary material for the artwork, you were back to (A version of this article appeared in print on May 19,
being—not to say provocative, but you did provoke 2011, on page A20 of the New York edition with the
strong reaction, such as with your Untitled series, headline: “She Calls It Art. They Call It, Well, Life..”)
whether in Havana [2000] or Bogota [2009]?
Captions
TB: It is very interesting because I never had 1 IM International. Conception Year: 2006
the conversation the way we had it today. So by look- Implementation Years: 2010 – 2015 Medium: Appro-
ing at what we are talking about I think I am realiz- priation of Political Strategies, Useful Art Duration:
ing something, which is not that I became provoca- Long – Term Project Materials: Immigration policies
tive, it’s that the art form I decided to use was and laws, Immigrant Population, Elected Officials,
complicated. Because I feel I’ve been accused a lot of Politicians, Community Organizations, Public Pres-
provocation, and I don’t understand that; I’ve being sure, Media Location: Corona, Queens, New York,
struggling a lot with that. And now I realize, talking United States http://immigrant-movement.us/
to you, it is not that I am provoking as a provocateur, 2 IM International – town halll. Title: Immi-
but it is more that I went back to use an art form that grant Movement International (IM International)
is problematic to interpret, because it’s an open Location: Corona, Queens, New York, United States
source, an open system. Why is it open? Because Conception year: 2006 Implementation years:
participation is part of what defines the work, there- 2010–2015 Medium: Appropriation of Political
fore you also give responsibility to other people. So I Strategies, Useful Art Duration: Long–Term project
think that is the change; I didn’t know how to handle Materials: Immigration policies and laws, Immigrant
responsibility. I realized I had responsibility for my Population, Elected Officials, Politicians, Community
work, I took full responsibility, and then I added, no, Organizations, Public Pressure, Media. Courtesy of
you are also responsible. So I think that already can Immigrant Movement International Photos: IM
be seen as provocation because you are forced not to International
be passive in the work. But also in this open system 3 immigrant respect pin. Title: Awareness
you are forced in a way, if you want to participate, to Ribbon for Immigrant Respect Campaign Year: 2011
take a stake in it, to be responsible. And also the Medium: Awareness campaign Materials: Metal pins,
issues—because I didn’t want it to be about me or community meetings, letters sent to elected officials,
feminist or a movement—were even more intensely, media Design: Tania Bruguera Photo: Camilo Godoy
let’s say, power-related concepts. “Destierro” [“Dis- Courtesy of Immigrant Movement International
placement”, 1998-1999] is a piece which is analogous; 4 Arte de Conducta – Hirschhorn, Thomas,
it’s a reference, it’s a metaphor where I appropriate 2007. Title: Behavior Art School (Cátedra Arte de
something and then you have to understand—the Conducta) Conception year: 1998 Founder and
process to understand the political implications was Director: Tania Bruguera Implementation years:
so long, because you have to know the reference, you 2002-2009 Medium: Behavior Art (Arte de Con-
have to understand I’m doing this appropriation, you ducta), Useful Art (Arte Útil) Duration: Long-term
have to understand the content—so I thought this is project Location: Havana, Cuba Materials: Configura-
too long. So I feel like I shortened in those pieces the tion of an Institution, Education Formats, Public
process of understanding the politics in the work and Gathering, Study of the Relationship Between the
that also is seen as provocation. Because the parkour Performative Arts and Politics and its implementation
or the road that you have to walk is shorter; so it is a in Society.
little more—not violent—but a little more in your 5 Ana Mendienta/Tania Bruguera. Title:
face, and you have to deal with this. So I think these Tribute to Ana Mendieta Exhibited at: Ana Mendieta
are—let’s say to defend myself—four elements that / Tania Bruguera. Sala Polivalente, Centro de Desar-
I’ve used that make people react differently towards rollo de las Artes Visuales, Havana, Cuba (1992)
the work. Conception year: 1985 Implementation years:
1986-1996 Medium: Re-creation of works Duration:
87 Issue 19 / June 2013

Long-Term project Materials: Ana Mendieta’s art- Tania Bruguera is one of the leading political and
works and unrealized projects, lectures, exhibitions, performance artists of her generation. Bruguera’s work
interviews, texts courtesy of Studio Bruguera photos: researches ways in which Art can be applied to the every-
©Gonzalo Vidal Alvarado day political life; creating a public forum to debate ideas
6 The Burden of Guilt 05 (HI-RES). Author: shown in their state of contradictions and focusing on the
Tania Bruguera, Title: El Peso de la Culpa (The Burden transformation of the condition of “viewer” onto one of
of Guilt). Medium: Re-enactment of a historical event “citizenry.” Bruguera uses the terms ARTE DE CON-
Year: 1997-1999. Materials: Decapitated lamb, rope, DUCTA (conduct/ behavior art) and ARTE UTIL (useful
water, salt, Cuban soil. Dimensions: Variable. Courtesy art) to define her practice.
of Studio Bruguera. Photo: Museo de Bellas Artes,
Caracas, Venezuela Bruguera has participated in Documenta, Per-
7 Tatlin’s Whisper #5 002 (HI-RES). Tania forma, Venice, Gwangju and Havana Biennales, and at
Bruguera, Tatlin’s Whispers #5, 2008. Medium: exhibitions at some of the most prominent museums in
Decontextualization of an action. Year: 2008. Materi- Europe and United States. Some of these museums include
als: Mounted police, crowd control techniques, the Tate Modern, The Whitechapel Gallery, PS1, ZKM,
audience. Dimensions: Variable. Performance view at IVAM, Kunsthalle Wien, and The New Museum of Con-
UBS Openings: Live The Living Currency, Tate temporary Art. Her work is part of the collection of the
Modern. Photo : Sheila Burnett. Courtesy Tate Tate Modern; Museum für Moderne Kunst; Daros Founda-
Modern tion; Museo del Barrio; Bronx Museum; IVAM; and Museo
8 Untitled (havana 2000) 006 (HI-RES) (CC) Nacional de Bellas Artes, Centro de Arte Contemporáneo
(RTP). Title: Sin Título (Habana, 2000) Untitled Wifredo Lam.
(Havana, 2000) Medium: Video Performance – Instal- A graduate of the MFA program at The School of
lation Year: 2000 Materials: Milled sugar cane, black the Art Institute of Chicago (United States) and Instituto
and white monitor, Cubans, DVD disc, DVD player Superior de Arte (Cuba), Bruguera is also the Founder /
Dimensions: 13.12’ x 39.37 x 164.04’ Courtesy of the Director of Arte de Conducta; the first politic art studies
artist. Photo: Casey Stoll program in the world, hosted by Instituto Superior de Arte
in Havana. She is visiting faculty at Ecole des Beaux-Arts,
Paris, IUAV in Venice and Rijksakademie in Amsterdam.
About Immigrant Movement International
Tania Bruguera’s concept for Immigrant Movement
International was inspired by the civil unrest in the suburbs
of Paris in 2005 led by immigrants. The lack of real political
representation for immigrants and the little respect and
committed dialogue from politicians with the immigrant
community inspired this project to place migrants in a
position of power, whereby their political representation
could be strengthened through a political party created by
immigrants. The commonalities that exist between all
migrants, regardless of their individual circumstances and
place of origin, as well as the treatment of immigrant issues
by politicians are the force behind this project.
In 2010 Tania was approached by Creative
Time and the Queens Museum of Art to produce a new
public art project; her proposal was Immigrant Movement
International.
Immigrant Movement International (IM Interna-
tional) launched in March 2011 in Corona, Queens, New
York. Queens is a borough known for its vibrant immigrant
population, with more than 45% of the population being
foreign born, and with approximately 138 languages spoken.
88 Issue 19 / June 2013

Marion von Osten On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Marion von Osten

on her collaborative style
and multiple roles
interviewed by Charlotte Barnes
Charlotte Barnes: You have many roles, artist, hand it was a collaborative process a research pro-
curator, author, and professor; do you feel that you cesses that meant working together with very differ-
are more one than the other? Is this something that ent people from very different backgrounds, focusing
changes over time and will change in the future? on the issues as experts in the field.
Marion von Osten: No not at all, all the roles There are a lot of problems in research when
belong together. For me, it’s a need to do something the expertise of the actors in the field are not taken
and a kind of Constructivist approach. The Con- seriously enough. Ethnographical studies are known
structivist’s historically did not divide between these to be plagued by this. So if it is about creativity, then
positions. The Russian Constructivists designed who are the experts? I guess the artist and the
exhibitions, made artworks, published, created post- designer. It was very important in this process to let
ers and so on. So, it’s a question of tradition, of them speak and I am part of them, I am not an out-
which genealogy you insert yourself into. There is the sider, I am not an impartial researcher - coming in
19th Century male genius model that is still working, and having an object to study – I’m part of the pro-
but I’m not in that kind of tradition but refer to a cess and that made all very interesting. The research
feminist and micro-political approach. If you look at thus was militant on consciousness raising one could
feminist art from the 70s, you find that they had to say. And I produced a video with all graphic and
self-organize and create exhibitions. There was a multimedia designers at Schöneggstrasse Zurich
need to do something. I would like to see the taking (k3000), as an exhibition contribution. But because
of multiple roles more as a necessity to inhabit differ- the exhibition was in the Design Museum nothing
ent possible articulations in the art field. With teach- had to be an artwork – that was liberating – on the
ing, it can also mean working together with younger other hand art curators regarded the video in the
practitioners and to understand the classroom as exhibition as a valuable work that could be shown in
an intellectual laboratory. So yes, it’s all part of the an art context again, but there was no intention for it
practice. while making it. And also practitioners who were
involved in Be Creative! were not all artists. We were
CB: In the exhibition, Be Creative! The Creative collaborators who brought in material, documents or
Imperative! at the Design Museum, Zurich (2002– ideas, theories. And the listing of contributors in the
2003), you were the curator as well as a contributing exhibition folder is thus not equal to a list for an art
artist. What were the biggest challenges for you on show. This is very important to mention, as it is
this dual-role project? And what if any were the big- actually a political strategy and a clear strategy
gest advantages of curating your own work? against this normative idea of how exhibitions are
made and who the contributors to exhibitions are. It’s
MvO: That is an interesting question because not just the artists, it’s even the technician, every-
actually that is still a taboo - you can either be one or body needs to be recognised because in other forms
the other. This divide represents a boundary you of culture production, like film production, it is usual
cannot cross. Ideological boundaries are interesting to credit everybody who was involved. In a Design
for an artist to work with. In the Be Creative! Exhibi- Museum it is also very usual practice to have a the
tion (2003) I did this very consciously. On the one full production team named. Some are contributors
89 Issue 19 / June 2013

with research and artworks, and some bring docu- who were also very upset about these courses, so I
ments, ideas, do the exhibition design, the installa- gathered them together and I went to the Museum of
tion and all are named. Design in Zurich to present the idea of an exhibition
on the notion of creativity. They were not against it
because at that moment the school also wanted the
teachers to be much more involved in exhibition
making and thus it was a collaboration with the
Institute for the Theory of Design and Art in Zurich
and the Museum of Design, that was still based in
the school. So I also used this energy of the moment.
To initiate a project like this is not something which
you do artificially, it’s created in the moment because
of a common interest. Then you have to seek out the
experts, and one was Ulrich Bröckling, a Sociologist,
who I had worked with before for the “Welcome to
1
the Revolution” Symposium two years before.
Another was Tom Holert, who had a fellowship at
CB: You worked with a large number of special- the ith (Institute for Theory of Design and Arts
ists on this project, including architects, artists, ZHDK) where I was working as a part time
designers, cultural historians and others, with such a researcher as well. The group that constituted was
large collective how did you manage the hierarchy also involved in local practices. Thus the project
with your co-curator and how did you maintain your happened in Zurich, I lived in Zurich and it was at
vision? the University and it was about the school. And it
was also using this international container of the
MvO: It’s a process and the project cannot just Museum of Design to bring the discussion into the
turn off. It’s not like in the art world where you are public. The exhibition got many reviews in design
asked to have something finished in three months for and architecture contexts and I really appreciated
the next show; it’s a process over a long time. The last this as the content was not limited to the art world at
exhibition project: In the Desert of Modernity and all.
The Colonial Modern Project (Haus der Kulturen der
Welt, Berlin 2008, Les Abbatoirs, Casablanca 2009) CB: This exhibition travelled to the Hochschule
needed seven years of work. It cannot be done fast. fur Grafik und Buchkunst, Leipzig where it was
And you don’t just collect people and put them into a curated by Beatrice von Bismarck and Alexander
fast process. The logic for doing the exhibition, Be Koch. Do you feel that the involvement of a new
Creative! The Creative Imperative! in 2003 lay with curator shifted the authorship and meaning of the
the sentiments expressed by the current Dean at the exhibition?
Zurich University of the Arts, who at the time
claimed ‘creativity’ would be the main asset in the MvO: Absolutely, the Hochschule fur Grafik
future world, and that was before the whole creative und Buchkunst has a a different history than the
industries discourse came to Germany. The term school and the Museum of Design in Zurich. In
creativity does not have the same sense in German terms of its history, the Zurich school comes out of
speaking countries like it has in English speaking. In the modern movement and not out of the 19th Cen-
German Kreativität refers to home crafts, such as tury Art Academy tradition. Thus, Leipzig has a
knitting; we did not associated it with artistic prac- different approach even that they have design depart-
tice. Artists would not have called themselves crea- ments too. In the context of Leipzig mainly new
tive, so the term was actually counter-creative, one artworks were created and the exhibition space was
could say. the universities gallery. It was also pushing bounda-
ries because there were art works that worked criti-
We had a very critical approach from the cally with the issue, and worked through it within the
start of this project as a reaction to the Dean’s senti- art space. One can say that the context was highly
ments we were all asking what and why he was talk- important here, and I think it brought a lot of inter-
ing about creativity. So, I decided to do something at esting tensions for us involved from Zurich and Leip-
the University and found partners who were inter- zig in working with the two contexts. When the
ested in that subject, too. I knew some colleagues students from Leipzig came to Zurich, they had some
90 Issue 19 / June 2013

pieces in the show in Zurich, and for them it was need to do something about the locality here, we
really strange to be in a Design Museum show, which need to do something about education system but
does not consider everything an art work. These also about Zurich and gentrification’ and so on.
notions of where something begins and something
ends, what it becomes, how it is perceived are inter- CB: Do you feel that in working as both curator
esting to engage with. and artist you can give a clearer display of the work’s
intention?
MvO: What you learn as an artist is to make

exhibitions; I think that’s completely forgotten.
Maybe you don’t learn everything you wanted, but
what you learn is how to make an exhibition. I think
that’s absolutely crucial because art historians don’t
learn that during their studies. From the first minute
of your education as an artist, you have to think how
you would put a work on display, even for a class
discussion. The publicity and the publication of the
work is always a part of your practice, so there isn’t a
2
big step from this kind of practice to larger exhibi-
tion making. While studying I found out that I am
CB: The exhibition was very much a social fast to understand how discourses connect and what
commentary, bringing together design concepts, their genealogies are; I can easily read these in
company mission statements and motivational tools images and in art work. But to produce an exhibition
among other things; did you see yourself as a curator it’s may be a collage work, it’s a construction and a
displaying artefacts or an artist exposing meaning in discourse you have to put that into space. That’s
them? interesting for me, even though I like to produce
books as well, more interesting is this question of
MvO: First of all I really didn’t do it alone, I space because there will be visitors in this space and
initiated it and lead it. But it was a group of people bodies will move through and perceive an exhibition.
who were part of the production process. Peter Spill- And they will perceive it not in a linear narrative. So
mann was part of the conceptual team, for making this is why I like to do shows. I am not so into the
the exhibition. And Beatrice Bismarck and Alexander linear way of narrating. For sure I did videos too but
Koch should be mentioned for the Leipzig part as the I always felt uncomfortable with linear way of reading.
main curators. In Zurich the show had chapters and
a layout, which was done by the exhibition designer In terms of exhibiting, it has a complete
from the museum, and he had his own ideas. For me other time space. You don’t know who will come and
to make an exhibition is a constant negotiation see it, and so you don’t know how people will move
process. There was an interim director in the through your space. So, that also means you don’t
Museum at that time, who was very helpful, and as know what they will take away from it, and I think
he was an architect, he also had many important that’s very interesting in terms of exhibition making.
ideas in the realization process. He was very inspir- It is its own medium and I would say that I use exhi-
ing for the team. I already named Tom Holert and bition making as one medium in my practice.
Ulrich Bröckling, but there was also Angela McRob-
bie from Goldsmiths College who inspired the show; CB: Another project that you were heavily
so many people formed this in the end. To make involved in was Transit Migration (2002-2006), part of
such an exhibition is not just this one off gesture, it’s the bigger Projekt Migration. You are credited as
a communicative process and it’s full of negotiations, artistic director, what did this title mean in practice
sometimes conflicts, but I think that’s good because and was it what you had anticipated?
then it becomes political on a very concrete level. I’m
much more an initiator and exhibition maker than MvO: Artistic Director is maybe a translation
just a curator. There is a moment in this process that is wrong for the English speaking context, me
when you discover what has to be in the exhibition and Kathrin Rhomberg were put in charge of this
and what not, but that is based on the discussions large scale - state financed project - on migration that
and insights. You discuss and that it gets clear ‘we ran over three years. It was complicated because it
91 Issue 19 / June 2013

involved people who were critical about the German articles as footnotes. As all the research data that we
state. Germany’s migration policy in the Guest found highly interesting as artists, would never be
Worker regime had racist implications. It was highly put in a major argument by the sociologists them-
complicated, highly conflicting, and highly political selves. But for us as outsiders, this was the central
in the making and I learnt the most I ever learned information where we started to understand the
through Projekt Migration. border regime, how it works. We understood: Migra-
tion policies are made due to knowledge production,
TRANSIT MIGRATION was a sub-project meetings, seminars, symposiums, conferences, EU
that was research based. Sociologists, political theo- financed research practice. So the problem of the
rists and anthropologists based at the Frankfurt question of representation was at the heart of the
University researched the south-east borders of the problem. So the strategy was to flip those things
EU. There was the idea to bring artistic production around and to map the mappers. We changed the
together with research. It was an experiment that perspective and make it possible to perceive the
worked out half and half. I don’t think it is a problem border regime differently. I think that’s also an artis-
for artists and curators to work in a trans-discipli- tic strategy.
nary way and with trans-disciplinary methods they
broaden their boundaries and the involved society CB: As you mentioned, one project within
theory. For the sociologist and the political theorist TRANSIT MIGRATION was MigMap, which you
there is something which is never fully grasped, and worked on with the collective Labor k3000, there
this is what I realised through this project. That is were fifteen authors to this piece; how did you avoid
that knowledge is produced in the aesthetic practice conflict in this working method and was a hierarchy
itself. This knowledge is vast. Artists and curators developed? Do you feel that a collective piece can
have this practical knowledge of the production that ever have equal authorship?
is not expressed and acknowledged. It is also a tacti-
cal knowledge about how you move through dis- MvO: I wouldn’t call it equal, but there is
course as an autodidact for example and make sense equality in all of those projects, you could say we are
out of them for yourself and the production. And it’s talking about a symbolic capital. I think the symbolic
a social knowledge, you learn from and for each capital is mainly connected with Peter Spillmann, he
other. Academics might be, in the end, more fixed on was invited to do this project and he invested a lot of
an author position when it is about concepts and work. Without Peter this wouldn’t have happened,
ideas. They are more fixed to their theses and this and without Labor k3000 in Zurich, (the media
might be necessary because, if doctoral students are collective that Peter and I founded), it wouldn’t have
involved, they have to make their own theoretical happened. I think he gave the most symbolic capital,
position, but everything is very much formulated or some of us gave maybe only a document and some
pre-formulated and they are not really free in people were only partially involved.
expressing their thoughts in the academic practice
because of the formulas. So I understood that there is Maybe in other projects one could say ‘there
a liberation of university knowledge production was the engagement of many people’, but I think in
needed, to enable students to think freely, to express this case it was Peter, and also Sabine Hess was very
freely, to shift subject areas even though this is not central in providing the material, but everybody is
permitted, and so on. named. How the names are ranked is correct, I
would say, there is no name incorrectly positioned,
It was an interesting experience, when it there is no one left behind the scenes. Peter could
came to a final collaborative project, which was the have, if he had been an artist in the genius tradition,
MigMap Project, the mapping of the border and claimed this as his ‘participatory’ art work and I
migration regime1. It was a mapping of the political guess the crucial part of our practices is that he
agencies and actors who are mapping migration, who didn’t. So, I think the question has to be turned
are governing it. A counter-strategy to the governing around and we have to ask ‘why don’t other people
of migration. The information was all gained in the name all their collaborators?’
research process. But the researchers would have not
taken this information as a major factor, so we as cul- CB: When you were working on Atelier Europa
tural producers tried to change their perspectives on at Kunstverein Munchen, 2004, you interviewed Brian
their research footnotes. The MigMap is thus an Holmes and you said: “In Germany and Britain, with
excess of the research that would be represented in different political papers like the Schröder/Blair Paper,
92 Issue 19 / June 2013

but as well in managerial literature, artists’ working conservatism a lot of collectives stopped working,
life and diverse methods of creating meaning have and classical gender roles, came back out of this
been quoted for the model of an entrepreneurial self, argument. At the same time, things were changing,
a subject which synchronizes life and work time under and people were governed in a different way, and it
the banner of economic success.” And that you resulted in opposition.
thought “that this quotation of the artist as a role
model was very harmful for collective and critical I believe as an intellectual you need also to
cultural practices in the 90s.” In what way was it see the hole in the fence and not just keep on re-
harmful, can you elaborate on what you mean? Did describing the fully working disciplinary program.
you experience this in your working life and did it Even the harshest border regimes, the harshest disci-
affect the way that you have worked subsequently? plinary program does not guarantee that it finally
works as planned. Here again we can learn from
MvO: Absolutely, in the 1990s there were feminist and micro-political approaches, because
many artists who started to try to understand the they actually looked at other aspects of life and pro-
economic shift, neoliberalism, globalisation production, not only the wage labor and formalised
cesses and so on; people like Alice Creischer and spheres, but also the informal and unregulated
Andreas Siekmann organised the Messe 2ok sympo- spheres. It is to understand how different spheres in
sium. There were many people involved in the Ger- our lives are connected or disconnected and that not
man speaking world - what we call the cultural left everything is always ‘Capitalism’ or ‘The State’. That’s
- who realised that something had to be done about why I did the edit of the In Search for the Post-capi-
Capitalism. There were, as always in leftist and in talist Self e-flux journal. I was upset about the limited
economic discourse, a lot of shortenings; but the idea discourses and they didn’t get better over the years.
that multi-tasking - which is a way of producing art But even with this editing very few people under-
in culture - could be the working model, even when stood how important it would be to establish a Post-
expressed by a politician, does not mean that this capitalist and Transcontinental perspective right
form of practice no longer contains a liberating force. now.
Even though things are demanded you cannot say
that they are fully incorporated, but in the 1990s
there was only one discourse. Note
1 http://www.transitmigration.org/migmap/
I am simplifying the discourse for the sake of home_credits.html
the argument, but the idea that capitalism is an intel-
ligent system that could actually create working lives,
and yet be incorporated into all aspects of everyday Captions
life even when there were a lot of theorists that don’t 1 Be Creative! The Creative Imperative!
even know how Capitalism became the hegemonic © Design Museum, Zurich
economic form. Economists know that you cannot 2 Be Creative! The Creative Imperative!
say that Capitalism is a system that works in and for © Design Museum, Zurich
itself, it works only because it is about interaction, 3 Atelier Europa © Dorothee Richter
sociality, desires, subjectivities. What happened in
the anti-capitalist field was that analysis as laid out in
their book by Luc Boltanski and Eve Chiapello, The Marion von Osten is an artist, author, researcher
New spirit of Capitalism (2007), that recalled the and exhibition maker. She is a group member of Labor
artists critique of the 1970s was than taken to k3000 Zürich/Berlin, kleines postfordistisches Drama
describe contemporary critique on neoliberalism. (kpD) and the Center for post-colonial knowledge and
Many artists had previously been part of social culture (CPKC) Berlin. Research, exhibition and publication
movements, which looked for solidarity with other projects include: Model House—Mapping Transcultural
temporary unregulated workers like with the Inter- Modernisms, Academy of Fine Arts Vienna, 2010–2013;
mittens in France or the Euro May Day Action Com- Architectures of Decolonization, Les Laboratoires
mittees.. So, what happened was that the possibility d’Aubervilliers, Paris, 2011–2012; In the Desert of
to step out into this new paradigm of collective Modernity—Colonial Planning and After, Casablanca,
working was now positioned against the more tradi- 2009, Berlin, 2008; Projekt Migration, Cologne, 2002–
tional role of the artist. A dichotomy that laid behind 2006; and TRANSIT MIGRATION, Zürich, Frankfurt
us, I thought. This was harmful because due to this 2003–2005. Atelier Europa, München 2004, Be Cre-
ative! The Creative Imperative, Zurich, 2003 a.o.
93 Issue 19 / June 2013

Since 2013 she is a PhD candidate in Fine Arts at

Malmoe Academy of Fine Arts and visiting professor at
CCC Master, HEAD Geneva, the Center for Curatorial
Studies Bard College, New York and the Master for Arts in
Public Spheres (MAPS), HSLU Lucerne. From 2006 - 2012
she was Professor for Art and Communication at the
Academy of Fine Arts Vienna, Vienna. From 1999 -2006 a
Professor for Artistic Practice and researcher at the Insti-
tute for the Theory of Art and Design (ith), Zürich Univer-
sity of the Arts. From 1996 -1999 she was curator at
Shedhalle Zürich. Von Osten lives and works in Berlin.
94 Issue 19 / June 2013

On Artistic and Curatorial Authorship
Imprint
We would like to thank Publisher

the Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg Dorothee Richter
for their generous support of this journal,
particulary Ramona Dengel and Bernd Milla. Co-Publishers
Michael Birchall, Silvia Simoncelli
The Kunststiftung Baden-Württemberg, is an independent
non-profit organisation providing scholarships to artists Editor
connected to Baden-Württemberg in the fields of visual Michael Birchall
art, art criticism, literature and music. In addition to the
scholarships it supports artists by organizing concerts, Foreword
readings, exhibitions discussions and performances Winfried Stürzl
(www.kunststiftung.de).
Contributors
Fucking Good Art, Ute Meta Bauer, Michael Birchall,
Tania Bruguera, Raqs Media Collective, Yvonne P.
Doderer, Mary Jane Jacob, Marc James Léger, Kristina
Lee Podesva, Dorothee Richter, Valerie Smith,
Winfried Stürzl, Marion von Osten, Gavin Wade,
Artur Zmijewski.
.
Interviews conducted by
Michael Birchall & Nkule Mabaso, Charlotte Barnes,
Annemarie Brand & Monika Molnár, John Canciani &
Jacqueline Falk, Sheena Greene, Anne Koskiluoma &
Anna Krystyna Trzaska, Chloé Nicolet-Dit-Félix &
Gülru Vardar, Ashraf Osman & Daniela N. Fuentes,
Sophia Ribeiro, Tanja Trampe & Monika Molnár.
Translation
Lucinda Rennison & Mark Kyburz
Proofreading & Editorial Assistance

Nkule Mabaso
Web and Graphic Design Concept

Ronald Kolb & Volker Schartner, Biotop 3000
Graphic Design Eigtheenth Issue

Biotop 3000
Cover image
Draftsmens Congress, 2012,
.
Photo credit: Artur Zmijewski
Supported By
Postgraduate Programme in Curating,
Institute Cultural Studies, Department Cultural Analysis,
Zurich University of the Arts
www.curating.org
95 Issue 19 / June 2013

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around curatorial practise and theory.
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Department of Cultural Analysis,
Zurich University of the Arts (ZHdK)

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ONCURATING.

3 Issue 19 / June 2013

This collection of interviews formulates a .discussion on authorship in con-

4 Issue 19 / June 2013

Curator, Valerie Smith discusses her approach to curating Sonsbeek 93

Long-standing collaborators, Ute Meta Bauer & Yvonne P. Doderer engage

5 Issue 19 / June 2013

Between Hype and Attitude.

Two years ago an article in the magazine “Monopol”, referring to an exhibi-

The publication of the article came during preparation for a symposium by

6 Issue 19 / June 2013

In order to react to this diversity, we decided to invite artist-curators who

7 Issue 19 / June 2013

Ideas were mooted in the presentations and discussions of the symposium in

8 Issue 19 / June 2013

“Competition, Collaboration or Teamwork?” (Dorothee Richter)

“Why I became a performance-curator” (Byung Chul Kim)

9 Issue 19 / June 2013

“Specific Inner Viewpoints” (Andreas Baur)

“Supplementary Show-Format” (Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber)

This example illuminated some aspects regarding the motivation behind

Gunter Reski and Marcus Weber presented exhibitions curated by artists as

10 Issue 19 / June 2013

A Question of “Attitude” (Tilo Schulz and Jörg van den Berg)

Conclusion and Epilogue

11 Issue 19 / June 2013

of an art sphere corrupted by financial interests, Andraes Baur attributed to the

12 Issue 19 / June 2013

13 Issue 19 / June 2013

Homo Academicus Curatorius:

14 Issue 19 / June 2013

Beyond the matter of disciplinary societies and

15 Issue 19 / June 2013

16 Issue 19 / June 2013

17 Issue 19 / June 2013

18 Issue 19 / June 2013

19 Issue 19 / June 2013

20 Issue 19 / June 2013

17 See Karl Marx, “Co-operation,” in Capital, 30 Desnoyers, A Genealogy of Berlin Work: A

21 Issue 19 / June 2013

Marc James Léger is an artist, writer and

22 Issue 19 / June 2013

Curatorial and Artistic Practice

23 Issue 19 / June 2013

24 Issue 19 / June 2013

25 Issue 19 / June 2013

26 Issue 19 / June 2013

27 Issue 19 / June 2013

Kristina Lee Podesva

28 Issue 19 / June 2013

29 Issue 19 / June 2013

“What most urgently needs to be done is to

30 Issue 19 / June 2013

KLP: I don’t believe in writing or any other

31 Issue 19 / June 2013

Kristina Lee Podesva (CA/USA) is a San Fran-

32 Issue 19 / June 2013

Public Art: Consequences

Initially I thought this was a jump forward,