Conversation With CASALS
Conversation With CASALS
Conversation With CASALS
J. MA. CORREDOR
Andre Mangeot
With an Introduction by
PABLO CASALS
And an appreciation by
THOMAS MANN
Illustrated
1957
New York
FIRST EDITION
Dear friend,
we talked, I had not realized that our conversations would stretch into
failures of our times. How much patience and good-will you have
shown !
which it would perhaps be out of place to record here: you would have
would that lead us? On the whole, I think it better to leave the reader
to his own reactions and judgments. Our talks were free from mental
human values of music, and that for me art and life remain inseparable.
and felt that here, for any artist, was source of inspiration and in-
I feel the same need to adore. I thank Providence that years and
11 INTRODUCTION
sincerely hope it will. I see you mention the crisis through which I
passed when I was 16, which led me to the edge of the abyss. At heart,
brutality; I still have the same need to protest against any attack on the
dignity of man. The only difference, alas, is that whereas injustice and
brutality have spread more and more widely since my young days, the
desire to protest is becoming steadily more and more blunted. How sad
My dear friend, once more let me congratulate you, and also assure
Yours,
Pablo Casals.
Sir,
profound respect and joyful admiration for a man whose art, for all its
placing him out of reach of our irony vand setting an example, in our
prostitute oneself by admitting that "He who pays the piper calls the
tune .
A fantastic talent, sought after and assured of overwhelming
success all over the world, offered fortunes to harness itself to business
This great creative artist will set foot in no country where liberty
and right are not respected. Nor will he go to those countries which
would still like the aesthetic pleasure of hearing him — notably from
his refuge — Prades. This name, almost unknown till linked with his,
the shrine of pious pilgrims from all over the world. Yes, the world
crowds to the man who withdrew from the world, and the Prades
wrong.
iii
IV A LETTER FROM THOMAS MANN
in its frailty, has always needed men to save its honour. This artist is
CONTENTS
Preface 9
Chapter I Childhood 15
iv Casals as a Conductor —
ix On Interpretation 182
Index 235
LIST OF ILLUSTRATIONS
In Bucharest, 1937 72
Trio at Prades 88
A performance at home 89
This small room, which serves the dual purpose of bedroom and study
in a pretty little house in Prades, is very well known to me. For several years
I have spent most Sunday afternoons there, going with various friends to
covered with books and papers — and, of course, pipes and tobacco.
More and more papers, on the table, on an old piano, sometimes on chairs
and sometimes on the bed, which is occupied at night by the Master and in
the daytime by his ' cello. Why all. these papers? Simply because this artist,
who is known all over the world, conceives it his moral obligation to answer
For many years he has made a point not only of answering every letter,
but also of writing the answers in his own hand. One day I begged him to
pondence seemed to me a sad waste of his time and energy. Casals showed his
From then onwards I would spend a few hours once or twice every week
topped Canigou. While I was taking the great mans instructions as to how to
deal with some — only some — of his mail, I found it impossible not to question
him about his memories and opinions, and he would talk with that simplicity
and charm so well known to his friends. It occurred to me then to take notes
also of his answers to my questions, with the idea of arranging them and
So much for the origins of this book. From what has been said above it
follows that my task can be summed up in the one word 'fidelity' (so great is
publisher without Casals having first seen it); fidelity in collecting the
10 PREFACE
a lecture but which make a conversation more vivid. My aim is that anyone
reading these pages should share as much as is possible in the intimate atmos-
of music. Since that October day in i8gg when Charles Lamoureux "dubbed"
him "Knight of the Order of the Violoncello, now and hereafter", his art
and his sincerity have been sung from every roof-top. The comments below
lous privilege of those gifts of perception which enabled him from the
PREFACE II
assuredly the only one in the world who is not argued about.
Joachim.
Isaac Stem: All my life I shall treasure the musical stimulus of these
concerts I have given with you and the days I have spent near you.
violoncello as no-one has yet been able to do. He has become the
profound regret at not having been able to come to Prades during the
last few years, to be with him and to get to know him still better.
acclaiming Pablo Casals as a very great artist, since all who are qualified
him is the firm stand he has taken, not only against the oppressors of
his countrymen, but also against those opportunists who are always
Pablo Casals and celebrate with all his admirers his art and his humanity,
which are equally so great. Having renounced the glory which still
12 PREFACE
awaits him through the world, he prefers to watch from the doors of
his native land, in his solitude and with his dreams and his art! What
Casals will be read with the very greatest interest by all who have been
estimate the value of Casals' influence on our time. Not only has he
existence of this great musician, from the ethical as well as the artistic
great master Pablo Casals is that of a jeweller. His art and his nature
Nature; all these things testify to the presence, in this world of small
say. He has left his mark on all 'cellists of our time, that is to say he is
so certain and so rich that it always reveals the truth of the music,
of the Maestro Pablo Casals into one phrase — "Great artist, great
PREFACE 13
Maestro Casals, after all our efforts to gather and faithfully record your
words, there arises this question: how to convey to the reader, by means of
the written word, the generosity and sweetness of your soul? Someone has
said that it is always dangerous to know a great man at close quarters. At the
moment of deciding to publish these talks we can vouch for the fact that at the
end of each visit we admired and loved you more than ever.
Solitary and glorious in a little house in a little town, you are able to
pass on to those who know you that which appears increasingly outmoded —
the love of man — and that which is denied this sombre epoch — hope. . . .
After each visit, as you stretched out your hand and said good-bye
you are one of the great men of whom Romain Rolland speaks, one who
Childhood
It was he who awoke in me the love of music through his lessons and
for a moment from modesty, was nevertheless a true and pure artist.
And your mother? I always heard you talk of her with great veneration.
her energy, her genuine understanding and her deep humanity ! Right
reflections.
myself, for short spells to the hermitage, which was very near the
unceasing flow of the sea. I stayed for hours, resting my elbows on the
El Pau de la Centa (his wife was called Vicenta), an old seadog who
This cottage at Sant Salvador was the only luxury we could afford,
as our family had very modest means and expenses had to be calculated
carefully.
Wherever I have found myself in the course of my travels, this
15
hermitage and the shores of Sant Salvador, as well as the little town of
that in 19 12 I built my house, that house which, alas, I have not seen
for so long.
Excellent in every way. Only think, that when I was seven I could
do any transposition. Besides, it was not only the teaching: how could
three, sitting on the floor and resting my head against the piano to
father ordered us to stand behind the piano (and I must own here that
my brother had a better ear than mine!). We had to name the notes
Well, if you can call it a dibut, I was five when I was admitted as a
second soprano to the church choir. It was on April 27th, the saint's
day I went to all the offices and got used to singing plainsong. I shall
never forget the first Christmas night. The night before, my mother
sent me to bed early, as I had to get up in time to sing at la misa del gall
(Mass of the Cock), High Mass at five in the morning, since Vendrell
did not have a midnight Mass. I could not sleep and wriggled about
was surrounded, but I felt that some extraordinary thing was about
starry night.
feast days. And suddenly I saw all the lights through the open doors of
1 Casals' parents had eleven children: nine boys and two girls. The only surviving
CHILDHOOD 17
the church. My father played the organ and I sang — I sang with all
my heart. . . .
this first one at Vendrell, with its luminous enchantment, has not
died in my memory.
In those days I was very curious about any new instruments I saw,
piano. And when I was eight years old I took part in a concert given
Is it true that when you played the violin the village children said you
looked like a blind man, and this teasing made you give up the violin?
You can imagine that in a village like Vendrell, in those days, the
only violinists the kids had seen were beggars. So they could not think
otherwise. But it was really after I heard a 'cello for the first time that I
when he was playing in church, and kept on asking him to teach me.
I used to climb down, trying to reach the pedals with my feet, but my
me into all the wonders of an organ. (It was an old instrument, made
at the same period as the one Bach played when in Leipzig.) I was
soon able to take my father's place if he was ill. A nice anecdote comes
back to my mind . . .just opposite the church was the shoemaker, who
playing." He would not believe his ears and called his wife and said to
her, "It was not Carlets 1 who was playing today, but Paulito." 2 They
(sweet wine).
2 Diminutive of Paul.
posers. His songs and some small pieces still have an attractive charm
and freshness. I must have been about seven when, before Christmas,
must realize that my father was not surprised to see a boy of seven
The show was a success (I took the part of a devil who used all
Vendrell, and in some other villages nearby, many years after the time
three years ago saying: "I am so and so ... I remember the music of
Els Pastorets. As I am not a musician, I whistled it for a composer who
Were these tunes written for the Nativity of Our Lord your first
composition?
To tell the truth it was my second. My first opus (to use the word
When you spoke to me of the folk tunes you used to hear as a child, you
ask my father for some new dance tunes. As my father was absent I
at me with a sceptical smile, but after I had tried to play the scale four
or five times, I started playing all the tunes of his repertoire which I
knew by heart. One day I'll play you some of these tunes on the piano.
{The walls of the room where we sit are almost covered with photo-
CHILDHOOD 19
those who are not Catalan. Men stand on each other's shoulders in
circles, making seven tiers, their heads bent with the effort.)
the respect of each player for the combined effort necessary to make a
Your childhood was during the quiet period of the Restoration, after
all the troubled times which had marked the 19th century in Spain till 1874.
Did your parents or your friends support the Carlistes or the Progressistes
Am I right in saying that your father initiated you into the cult of Bach?
Not exactly. He had shown me certain aspects of great music and
There you are mistaken. I was mischievous and, for my age, had a
village talk was when I descended a hilly street on a cycle that my old
friend Matines had made for me. (He was an extraordinary person.
Would you believe it, he threw himself from the roof of his house,
skull. But I got up, mounted the cycle again and this time could ride
successfully.
through the barrier where a plank was missing, but I got caught by
one big nail which was supporting it. I could not move and as I des-
perately tried to free myself, the nail went into my head. Do you know
village square so that the sun would dry the blood ! My father hap-
pened to walk that way; imagine his feelings, he thought I was dead.
20 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
Hooligan also?
older boy using his strength to impose his will on a weaker one. Then
I would intervene.
Yes, but this violence did not frighten me and I often intervened
"bad boy" of the village. He was called El Pep fuster (Joseph the
imposing his will in a high-handed way. One day, when I could not
stand it any longer, I threw myself upon him and after a hard fight I
got the upper hand, although he was three or four years older than I.
Strange things can happen. I had lost trace of my old enemy for
At the hotel I was handed some visiting cards, one of which said
"I am Joseph, the carpenter". What a surprise! The former rascal had
And what about your treatment for hydrophobia at the Barcelona Hos-
I was only ten years old and the Pasteur discovery had only been
applied a very short time. A mad dog had bitten my leg and my
who had arrived too late and who was dying in delirious screams. As
and it was only when I got to Madrid that the Count de Morphy took
About five thousand. The village only grew fairly recently. The
CHILDHOOD 21
most of them have such personalities and seem to bring to their work
the same care and perseverance that one should to any creation.
You may have seen those curious musicians who go from one
strolling players, who called themselves Los Tres Bemoles (The Three
Flats) . They were made up to look like clowns and were loaded with
music concerts. It was then that I heard a real 'cello for the first time.
Was this impression stronger than you had when you heard other
instruments?
said to my father, "I would very much like to learn to play a violon-
was decided then. My father thought that music would not earn me a
living and that I ought to find a profession. In his opinion that was a
that any extra income, however small, would have been very welcome.
But my mother did not agree and just said: "Since he has heard this
instrument our son has shown such enthusiasm for it that he must
him there." My father thought that all these schemes did not make
22 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
I suppose that if your mother had not shown so much energy and foresight
steps. His musical feeling was equal to his modesty. He was the parish
the piano, and played for dances at the festes majors (village festivity).
He never complained of his lot and when he played, even when it was
just for dancing, he put into his playing all the dreams and aspirations
of his soul. Beauty was his aim. It looked as if I was going to do the
all the music there might have been out of waltzes and rigodons.
artist?
No, not in the slightest. Neither then nor later. It was not in
accordance with my character. Sometimes my mother said to me,
and realized that if I showed promise, it was certainly for some musical
with some distant relations with the idea that I should attend the
I was very sad at leaving the countryside where I had been brought up,
However, you never lost contact with the village of your birth.
Vendrell every year. For twenty-one years, when I had finished the
music season in America, I always took the first boat to come home.
How do you account for your constant attachment to your native soil,
palace of the Majorcan kings at Perpignan? "It is on the firm soil of our
native land that we must place our feet in order' to take flight to Heaven. 19
CHILDHOOD 23
my house.
But it seems that your childhood of so long ago is still very much alive.
America, and even in this village of Prades, the child I was at Vendrell
II
composition.
first day that I just did not understand a thing my teacher explained to
me: even less did I understand the task that was set to us for the next
day. I got home in a very nervous state and in tears, and told my
mother all about it. I was feeling desperate and I thought the best
teacher had given us. When I produced it the next day at the class, my
teacher looked at it, seemed to laugh and cry at the same time, and
My teacher was a very gifted 'cellist; he had good fingers, not too
thin or too thick, which helps for fingering. Bearing in mind the
technique and style of 'cello playing at that period, one could say he
was an excellent 'cellist. Nevertheless, even at the first lesson I was very
say: "What are you doing? You will catch it for this." But that did
not stop me. I wanted to get rid of all the unnecessary conventions
and stiffness, which, to my mind, did not help to solve the real
problems.
when you were twelve — a technique which in later years was to spread all
Why incredible? Don't you think that even a child can observe
and think what he likes of his teacher and notice what may be wrong
24
in his teaching? We were taught to play with a stiff arm and obliged
movement of the right arm, including the elbow (this new theory
caused a furore among the traditionalists). This free action makes the
tion of life and nature, which can always teach us anything, if we are
then still continue: and they will for as long as I have the strength to
do so.
Yes. I arrived there when they were pulling down the buildings of
relations who came from Vendrell. She returned home after a few
days, but the following year came to stay for good. My hosts were
very good people, and kind to me. Benet, the man, a carpenter, was a
in the low quarters of Barcelona. His idea was to curb the activities
and pistols he had snatched from them, and kept these trophies in
drawers — the only weapon he used was an ash stick! One evening
he came home with a wound — he had been knifed! But he just told us
it was nothing, and the next evening his comment when he returned,
rather pleased with himself, was, "That chap of yesterday and I are
now quits!"
Tell me, I believe you played in public quite early in Barcelona?
I could not help it. I had to keep studying and making a living at
the same time. Nine months after my arrival in the capital of Catalonia,
week.
In the summer I joined some bands which took part in the festes
majors of Catalonia. It was very hard work. The heat, the travelling
in old horse buses, the inns, the crowds, the dances which always lasted
as I told you before, I took this playing very seriously. I had a growing
conviction that big occasions and big works were not the only important
we shall see miracles every day! At the end of these dances, peasants
looks that they could see beyond the immediate and passing pleasure
of the dancing. A sort of mutual understanding was established between
Can you remember any musical occasions which left their mark on you
in those days?
deeply impressed I was once, to see and hear Richard Strauss conducting
some of his works. It was a period when Brahms and Wagner were
revealed to me. A choral society, which later became the Orfeo Gracieno,
used to meet above the Cafe Tost: they had made me an honorary
enthusiast called Fluvia, who came regularly to the Orfeo, was the
agility.
Yes. He was a good sort. But he did not like to see me arriving
late at his cafe, since the concert was supposed to begin at nine o'clock
sharp, and I often forgot the time simply because I used to get lost in
opposite. Music, all sorts of books I read, the meaning of life, were all
Once I arrived really very late at the cafe. Tost was waiting for me at
the door looking very cross. He put his hand in his pocket and pro-
This was the great event of my life: my father, who had already
Cafe Tost where I played solos. One day, quite by chance, I came
across the Six Suites of Bach in one of these music shops. I was thirteen
behind the words: Six Suites for 'Cello Solo. I did not even know
they existed, neither did my teacher, and no one had ever spoken to
excitement, and it was only after twelve years' practice of them that
Suite in its entirety: one or the other would play a Saraband, a Gavotte
which they were called in the period, doing all the repeats shown so as
How could anyone think of Bach as "cold", when these Suites seem to
shine with the most glittering kind of poetry! As I got on with the
and I can say now that the feelings I experienced were among the
head was going round, fear gripped me fast and I said, as I got up:
out the whole of my career. Can you realize that at each of the
occasion !
were coming in great numbers to hear "el nen" (the child). I was "el
nen .
Once when Albeniz was in Barcelona with his two friends, Arbos
the violinist and Rubio the 'cellist, with whom he had formed a
he came to the cafe and was so pleased with my playing that he wanted
to take me to London with him. But my mother would not hear of it
and said I had to work and get much better before thinking of this.
illustrious patron of music, who had been tutor and private secretary
Maria Cristina, the Queen Regent. My mother kept this letter very
carefully for three years, just waiting for the opportune moment to
use it!
In fact these three years in Barcelona, when you divided your time between
composition and ' 'cello playing, must have been peaceful and profitable?
/ read in Emil Ludwigs book that he seemed to sense what he calls "a
My greatest wish was to get them to agree with each other about this.
But how could I do it? Fortunately, when I was sixteen and the crisis
that suicide was the only way out, and that idea pursued me for
tions, I thought: "How stupid they are to enjoy this miserable life!"
I was desperately searching for a door through which I could find peace
of mind.
would walk inside the Sant Jaume church and look for a dark corner
where I could pray and meditate in peace — and, often, as soon as I got
out of the church I hurried back again, more anguished than ever. I
felt that here was my only hope of salvation. Obviously when I got
"What is the matter?" she would say, and I, "Oh, it's nothing." I
was too fond of her to tell her of my obsession with suicide. But I
could not get rid of it.
Nietzsche said: "It is folly and perdition for a young mind to go about
read Marx and Engels, but I was not long deceived. Marxist ideology
accept this. I had only to look about me to see what men were like, and
I sadly realized that nothing would change them — that they would
It was the period when the anarchists began their crimes in Barcelona —
fraternity, and elevating the moral sense of the human race, giving us
hope and consolation. As far as I am concerned, and since my youthful
of your adolescence.
and it seems so difficult to try to raise the moral standard of men, that
inner self (although it seldom comes to the surface) and it has increased
Did this crisis of pessimism, of which Ludwig speaks, last very long?
All this painful period, of which I have just spoken, remains per-
Yes. When I played for the piano and 'cello exams the audience
seemed to fill up the hall and I could see the members of the jury
Barcelona and that the time was ripe for her to use Albeniz's letter to
She came with me to Madrid, and since she did not like to leave
Barcelona.
Infanta Isabel, the sister of the dead King Alphonso XII, who had a
reputation for knowing a lot about music. I shall never forget this
As I was playing, Enric, who was a baby in arms, wanted his dinner,
and in his own way provided a noisy accompaniment to my playing;
colour! After this the Count talked about me to the Queen Regent
and she received me very kindly; and so I came to know the Queen
Dona Maria Cristina who, from that moment, became a second mother
'cellist and composer. With the violinists Arbos and Bordas, and also
a viola player (whose name I have forgotten), I played the 'cello part
in.
were a few cigarieres (women who make cigars), a hall porter at the
Palace, very proud of his uniform and madly adored by his wife, and a
shoemaker who had two mentally deficient children. There were four
in and out, shouting, singing, and quarrelling, night and day! But in
spite of all the noise I spent long hours there practising the 'cello or
All these good neighbours you had sound as if they belonged to the
Verbena de la Paloma. . . .
Yes, admiration and gratitude: I often say that he was the greatest
teacher one could have had. I was very lucky to have him at such a
sonal mania for good intonation (which was neglected in those days)
sterio felt just the same on these two points, he encouraged me no end
showing off. He was the kind who evoked devotion because his art
diary, which occupied about one page a day, was kept until my first
tour in the United States in 190 1 . . . and now I have mislaid them
all! 1
Ah! I can still see him. He was a great gentleman, very simple,
just as he had been the preceptor of the King Alphonso — and every
Countess, who had been a pupil of Liszt, and his daughter were
also very good to me. She gave me my first lessons in German. 2
The text-books we used were the same ones Alphonso XII had,
the books.
said, "Pablito, you will have these as a souvenir from me." But after
his death I was unable to obtain what the Count had then so categoric-
Can you remember any specific example of the way he taught you?
concisely, the Count sent me to visit the Prado Museum once a week
and also to the sittings of the Cortes. I had to write an essay on each,
Deputes, sitting very quiet, I could hear all the famous speakers of the
No, I did not think I had any reason or title to justify any such
introduction, although I could have asked the Count to do it for me.
realise here that all he told us was never taken from written notes . . . which do
not exist !
2 Casals showed great facility for foreign languages. Besides Catalan and
Castilian, he talks French and English fluently — knows German well, and
Alhama.
Which were the painters that attracted you most at the Prado?
I must confess that I was put off by the long shapes of his figures
and by the violence of his colouring. But I was very struck by the
bull-fighting.
was very happy to see Tomas Breton going the same way.
What did he think of your compositions?
He liked them very much. Every day I had lunch with him at
unusual harmonies, but when the Count, who sat next to me, thought
I was going too far, he would tap me on the shoulder, saying, "Pablito,
siecle, when extravagance was the fashion. Long and untidy hair,
place. We were offered brandy but did not accept it, so the great
wants to be an artist and does not drink brandy!" Such was the
fashion, the way of thinking of that period. Of course, this does not
mean Sarasate was not a remarkable artist when you compare him with
More than kind. I have already told you how good the Queen
always was to me, and until her death she was the same. I was received
play my compositions and the 'cello. I also played duets on the piano
with the Queen. Once when I was ill she sent me her own doctor.
together and I gave him stamps. He was very fond of lead soldiers.
While the Queen and I were playing the piano he was so absorbed in
playing soldiers that when I asked him after we finished, "Does your
Royal Highness like music?" "Yes," he said, "it pleases me. But what
courtiers revolted me. I did not belong to that world. I used to talk
advised me to judge men from their acts, not from the rank they
and affection I have for these people, the contact I had with them
would say, "If he is really gifted as a composer the 'cello will not
will be very difficult for him to make up for lost time." (And I must
mother thought I ought to have a change. But the Count did not see
eye to eye with her and a very strained situation ensued. "Well,"
the Queen.
Yes, for the first time I crossed the frontier, in the company of my
stand and felt desperate: he would say, "What is this woman thinking
congratulating me, he said he was too old to give me any lessons and
advised me to go to a big city like Paris where one could hear good
music. This was my first disappointment, and I was just going to take
my leave when he said: "I understand you also play the 'cello, and I
should like our professor to hear you. Will you come tomorrow morn-
'cello class. In those days the Brussels Conservatoire had a name for
being the best in the world for string instruments. I sat on a bench
at the back and listened to the pupils with long hair down to their
shoulders and I did not think their playing was exceptionally good.
When the class ended the teacher called me and said, rather sarcastic-
ally, "Eh, you, the little Spaniard, will you play something?" "I will
name a great many works, and as I knew them all I said "Yes." Then
Everyone was laughing and I was red with indignation. "Now will
you play the Souvenir de Spa?" (A bravura piece which was a kind of
"No." "What instrument are you going to play on?" "Any one which
could be lent to me." "What a boy ... he can play on any instrument."
teacher. I was getting very cross. I seized a 'cello some pupil was
play.
felt completely sure of myself. After a few bars I could see from their
faces that these students were a bit surprised, and when I finished play-
ing there was complete silence. The teacher got up, took me to his
office and said, "Although it is against all the rules, I can promise you
that you will get the First Prize at the Conservatoire if you consent
all your pupils, and I don't want to stay here another minute."
Yes, I immediately wrote to the Count and told him what had
happened, and I stressed the fact that Gevaert could not give me
and returning to Brussels. When I told him that although I was very
sorry to upset him I would not return to Brussels, he lost his temper and
You must have been very upset to have to break off your relations with
your protector.
Yes, I was extremely sorry to have to do so, but what else could I
would not have had any meaning! Also, when I was in Monasterio's
class I had learned a sense of discipline and musical devotion which did
not fit in with what I found at the 'cello class of the Brussels Con-
influence that I acted in that way. But he was wrong. I made the
decision myself and felt very strongly that I should have wasted my
time in Brussels.
You have not very happy memories of your first stay in Paris?
Alas ! I went through hard and anxious times. You see the situation
nineteen and two children, and no means. I had to find some sort of
where the French can-can was in great vogue. I went, and won the
the candidates were supposed to play only one movement; but when
my turn came, they let me play through the whole work. My salary
was only four francs a day! We lived in a hovel near the Porte St.
'cello, to save the fare of fifteen centimes, a small sum, but one which
decided to live on a strict diet. But the winter was very cold and as I
was not used to such a low temperature I fell very ill with a sort of
were in distress.
Luckily you had your mother with you.
feed four and buy the medicine's — she took on any sewing jobs she
could find and worked late at night if necessary. My father also sent
saw my mother come in with her hair cut short. I looked at her in
astonishment.
For a little money, she had sold her magnificent hair. But she did
not make any fuss about it, and thought it had no importance
at all.
She said that that would be difficult, because she knew I couldn't
Had you decided by that time to stick to your own conception of music,
nature.
Did you think, all the same, that this sort of interpretation would please
the listeners?
public had reacted perfectly. In any case, don't forget, as I told you
before, that you get the best result if you give the best of yourself and
try to express the music sincerely.
There was then a group of enthusiastic music lovers who founded the
Wagner Association . . .
I took part in this craze for Wagner (I had been enthusiastic when
at the age of twelve I heard Wagner for the first time). However, I
ing one line blindly, however fascinating this line might be. For
fanatics.
If you like stories, I can tell you an amusing one. During one
had once taught Toscanini. He was one of those Italians who seem
and apparently there was an old man sweeping and whistling at the
back of the stage. Mugnone, who had not realised where this strange
noise came from, shouted, "Silenzio, corpo di Bacco!" But as the noise
at the top of his voice and all ready to attack him. The other, not
realizing who it was, thought a madman had been let loose, and
received him with his broom — imagine the scene! They had to be
forgotten.
Barcelona at that time, I accepted one for Espinho, which was the
invitation to play for the King and Queen, Carlos and Amelia, at
the Royal Palace in Lisbon. I left Espinho in such a hurry that I forgot
him. He wrote back very cordially and our reconciliation was most
to give a concert at the Palace, and after I had played she said, "Pablo,
a bracelet she was wearing on the left wrist she added, "Which of
these stones do you prefer?" "Oh, Majesty, I think they are all won-
had inserted into my bow. The Queen also gave me a lovely Gagliano
In those days the Queen Regent must have had a lot of worries with the
of i8g8 y and the loss of the Spanish Colonies. Do you remember this war?
Press, the news of defeats, the Treaty of Paris. One horrible recollection
leaving Barcelona and the good position I had acquired there I wanted
Barcelona and, in fact, I was much more fluent in it than when I went
given me.
travel by myself and that her company was not as necessary as it had
been before. It was due to her complete self-denial and her faith in
She was an exceptional woman ! Just think what she did when we lived
in Madrid: she studied foreign languages and more or less did the same
but mostly so that the deep feeling we had for each other should not be
I shall never forget it. I was taken into his room where he was
pretended not to notice) the visitor who had come to disturb him in
his work. The fact was that he was giving up all his time and care to
following winter. Realizing that time was going by, and as Lamoureux
remained silent, I said: "Sir, I don't wish to disturb you. I only came
to give you this letter from the Count de Morphy." He took it, read
it, and said bluntly, "All right, you come tomorrow with a pianist
and your 'cello." When we turned up the next day, I thought we were
in for another seance of the same kind: he seemed absorbed in some
turbed him.
writing again ... I tuned up and my friend sat ready to play. Once I
began, Lamoureux dropped his pen and slowly turned round. After
and said, "My dear child, you are one of the elect." He asked me to
in Paris as a soloist (and also the first occasion I wore evening dress).
Yes, as always.
Was it a success?
After this first concert with Lamoureux, did you decide to live in Paris?
Yes, in December of the same year and, I think, this second concert
was even more successful than the first. I asked Lamoureux if he would
conducted, not the effect he could make with it. He was very exacting
perfection.
said, "Brenoteau, it is out of tune." And after trying the same passage
again a few times, the clarinetist said he thought it was in tune. "Well,
if you think you play in tune," said Lamoureux, 'Til tell you a story of
what happened to me when I went to see a friend who was ill in rather
How can you live here?' 'I can't smell anything/ said he. Brenoteau,
do you know why my friend could not smell? Because he was used
to it."
No, and when he lost his temper he could say some pretty biting
things. Once, during a rehearsal of Tristan and Isolde, the tenor did not
seem to pay any attention to his remarks. After trying two or three
times without better result, Lamoureux laid down his baton and
shouted: "Sir, as a tenor you have the privilege of being stupid, but
Unfortunately you were not able to collaborate very long with Lamoureux.
concert with him. But while I lived in Paris I always played at the
42
there I heard that the Count de Morphy was gravely ill in Switzerland.
I wanted to go and see him, but I had no money and could not think
how to borrow any. The news of his death, however, came soon
after, and I could only lament that such a highly-placed man had
Not at first. I only went there in 1905, and lived in it until 19 14.
Two or three years after my dihut in Paris. I must say I was in great
pieces for violin solo and 'cello solo, sonatas for piano and violin and
for piano and 'cello, songs, motets and a few choral works; a Miserere
finished a sonata for piano and violin only a few days ago. But I
When I am dead and these works are found, someone will see if they
works.
Yes. I had met him at the house of an English lady, Mrs. Ram, a
good pianist herself, who received painters and literary people. She
fallen ill through cold, and took me to stay with her, saying I should
For many years we toured through Europe and the two Americas
I thought of Bauer as a pianist of the first rank and also gifted with
a rare intelligence.
I believe it was in lgiy that you landed in New York and Fritz Kreisler
said to the Press: "The monarch of the how has just arrived"
not unknown in America for I had toured the country about a dozen
times already.
When did you start the famous trio with Thibaud and Cortot?
public for a few years before the 19 14 war. Our association, which
travelled all over Europe together and although it is a long time ago
Yes, there is no mistake about it; both from the artistic and com-
mercial points of view it has been one of the great successes of record-
Yes, they were great friends of mine, of rare kindness, and they
received the tout Paris of politics, art and letters. There I met Briand,
Jean Hugo's tutor) and Leon Blum, who was then secretary to Madame
Dorian.
politician.
One could not help being impressed by his appearance and manner.
storm later.
You had quantities of friends in Paris: you mention Faure, d'Indy and
Sandoz. . . .
this one of me and the one he did of Verlaine were the two he liked
best.
J heard that you played to him just before he died.
cancer of the larynx and he suffered horribly. I had visited him many
times since he became ill and found that his philosophy enabled him
to rise above any pain he had to endure. When it got too acute he used
to bring his Marcus Aurelius book from under his pillow and read.
A few days before he died, when he could not speak any more, he
some of the quietest movements of the Bach Suites. The glow of the
sunset added to the solemnity of the moment. The few friends sitting
round the bed were silent in anguish and I was crying. When I stopped
he wanted to embrace me and then raised his arms to show how grateful
1 In his book Trois crises de Vart actuel (Fasquelle, 1906), Camille Mauclair
"I shall newer forget one of my last visits to Carriere when he was on his death-bed.
A wintry twilight filled the room with the mysterious colours he liked so much. A touch
of light still caught the side of a vase where some faded flowers were drooping. There
were some study drawings on the walls — the last ones. In the half-light one could guess
the faces of a few friends sitting round like shadows. In the middle, the rectangular shape
of the bed where Carrihe was lying motionless, like a statue of himself. An admirable
lady, whose portrait was the last Carriere painted, had brought Casals and his 'cello.
He sat near the bed and played some Bach with the emotion, power and charm of that
which seemed to pray for Carrihe and also to carry our inner thoughts, which mere
I could write endlessly about all the friends I had in Paris before
days and I felt so rich with so many good friends. Alas, most of them
With him I had a friendship which existed for half a century, and I
always had a most tender affection for him. I also considered him one
It was through your friend Dr. Sandoz that you met Bergson?
come to the Villa Molitor, and one day he introduced me to the great
parations for his lectures and books. But whenever I was in Paris, I
used to go and see him because we were both so pleased to see each
to a man like myself who knows nothing?' ' "My dear boy," Bergson
while teaching".
Bergson must have been interested in the part played by intuition in the
performance of music.
and I said that what I found was that if, after a good performance, I
remark and whenever we met he used to talk about it. One day he said,
"This weight you talk about, is it equal or similar to the one we should
feel when we have done a good action?" I also knew the feeling one
something outside my own self, whereas the one which comes from
words could not have expressed. And we felt almost guilty in realising that our absorption
by the comfort of the music, all contributed to make us realise that these minutes would be
tion had been deeper and more definite. There is another difference
a feeling of self-recognition.
Was it not the Prince of Broglie who said that when he discovered the
principles of quantum physics he felt that an inner peace and clarity gradually
physical sensation, which is why I use the image of the weight of gold.
views on the subject were almost identical — but although I read a few
years ago that he was approaching conversion at the time of his death, I
for the type of man known as the "French savant". Their modesty,
their wit and their humanity leave them indifferent to public opinion,
but all the same they remain the glory of their country and of all
mankind.
I read in a biography of Fritz Kreisler that you and some of your friends
place.
You can imagine, with the life we all led, how we were longing
to make music for ourselves. One would arrive from Russia, another
I hear that you played piano quintets there with Busoni, Cortot or
Pugno at the piano, and for the strings Kreisler, Thibaud, Ysaye {viola)
and Casals: combinations of this kind would have made the impresarios go
Do you remember when you started your classes at the £cole Normale
de Musique in Paris?
It was before 19 14. Cortot, Thibaud and myself started the School
During the first year of the Ecole Normale the public was admitted
upset the pupils. (Pierre Fournier was one of the first who came to
play at these classes.) I was against this. In fact I did not teach at the
School but every year, during the spring, I used to come and hear
every 'cellist, one after the other. I decided to have Diran Alexanian
Did you play for Queen Victoria before or after your debut in Paris?
some of the "at homes" society people used to give during the season,
place seemed to house a permanent fair where music had a place in the
at her residence in the Isle of Wight. Her son, the future Edward VII,
the Duke of York and other members of the Royal family were also
present.
Court. I remember the white veil she wore on her head and the
understand is why Casals should be unique, why work and thought should not produce
many performers of his value. Is it so very difficult nowadays to be natural and simple?
Is it our education, our way of living, that produces so many great talents which seem
false or awkward? It is a complex question rather difficult to answer. But what we can
wish for is to see that Casals creates a school — and those who like music would find it a
noble task to contribute to its fruition. It seems useless to try to reform the present situation,
which is made up of the mistakes , flatteries and errors of the past, but we can ask Casals
2 Translator's note:
This is not quite accurate: it was my brother Auguste who founded the
&ole Normale de Musique and asked Casals, Cortot and Thibaud to be artistic
directors.
She said that the Queen of Spain had spoken to her about me and
added that she hoped that my artistic career would fulfil the honour
and trust that had been placed in me. When I returned to Spain I saw
Queen Maria Cristina; she showed me the telegram she had received
from Queen Victoria about the concert and specially about my
performance of Bach.
Every year when I went home, I had to go and visit her in Madrid.
She used to say, "Pablo, you sit here and tell me all that happened
since we last met." I did not and could not keep any secrets from her.
that most satisfied me. He was a great conductor. I played with him
must have a long talk after the concert." He used to take me by the
arm and we would walk to a tavern (always the same one), where we
talked till the small hours of the morning. The owner of this place
used to lock the door at the appointed time and leave us in peace,
I was most thrilled, for I knew how intimate the two had been.
in every word.
No. When I met Edward Speyer and Donald Tovey, who were
ful artistic value. At the end, Lord Balfour presented him with his
came to ask for my help at a time when the Society was in a difficult
Speyer and I became great friends and one could always count on
with me.
Was it in lgoi that you went to America for 'the first time?
You are telling me! Once, when the French pianist Moreau
Pablo Casals. I had not heard him but the foreign papers I had read were full of praise
for him. I wrote to him explaining the origins and aims of the Society and asking for his
collaboration. I got a charming letter from him in which he said he felt honoured to help a
Society that had been brought about by the art of Joachim. It was on October 20, 1909,
that Casals played for the first time at our concerts. The programme included the Brahms
Trio in C minor and the Schubert Trio in B[j major, which Casals played with Marie
Soldat and Leonard Borwick. In between the two Trios, Casals played the C Major
Suite of Bach for 'cello alone. From the moment he started with the magnificent descending
scale of C major which opens this Suite, the audience followed his performance with a
kind of exalted attention. The enthusiasm rose with each movement until the end, when
it burst into a kind of demonstration rarely heard in a London concert hall. Casals had
captivated an English audience by his playing of Bach. We had been persuaded by the
erudite that Bach had to be played in a dry and lifeless way, whereas Casals, while
observing a great respect for classical form , played it with real spontaneity of feeling and
lively expression. From then onwards Casals was a regular visitor at Ridgehurst, and
when he came he was always the first to suggest making music, which, of course, delighted
us. He is an example of the rare combination of great virtuosity with supreme musician-
ship. The extent of his knowledge in any branch of music is astounding, and as reliable
as his critical sense. In 1926 we were fortunate to hear him conduct the L.S.O. His
performance was beautiful and he proved that he was also a great conductor." — Sir
we began to play dice with the sort of men who wear large hats and
coming ! I also got into trouble when I persistently refused the drinks
I was offered: one man said to me, "Here we bet and drink." I kept
Then I noticed the cheerful looks that spread over their faces, and
when the time came for them to go we all embraced in a most friendly
way.
(Although Casals did not say so, I suspected that he had to cheat in order
I read somewhere that when you first went to America, some impresarios
were rather shocked to see a young performer nearly bald, for it was very
much the fashion for musical virtuosos to wear long hair in those days!
It was during the first tour. We had decided to climb the Tamalpais
piece of rock was on the point of falling. As a matter of fact it did fall
on my path, but as I had been warned I had time to get out of the way.
But my right hand got smashed and, if I had not been careful, I would
have been killed. Do you know what I said when I saw my hand in
that state? "Thank God, I shall not play the 'cello any more." You
seriousness, one becomes a slave for life (not to mention the stage-
Francisco for four months while my hand healed. You can still see the
scar now. Before leaving this great Californian town I gave a concert
1 Another impresario made nt announcement to the audience to the effect that "if
you notice the great 'cellist Casals is bald, although he is so yoUng, it is because he left
"intimate enemy , \ . . .
No. In 1904 I went again to America, when I gave with the New
his guests. He was then a man bursting with strength, vitality and
sympathy, but when I met him again, many years later, at the house of
and when I tried to cheer him up by telling him stories of the past, he
began to fill with smoke and the crowd was starting to panic. As it
was just at the time of the intermission, I told the Director that his
duty was to tell the audience that it was a small fire and that the
concert would continue after a short interval, during which time those
pianist to sit at the piano and the programme went on, in spite of a
good deal of coughing caused by the smoke; but anyhow the panic
was avoided and the crowd got out without any accident. The next
day there was nothing left of the theatre, and when the Town Council
And what about the charity concert you gave for Granados* children?
Yes, I was deeply shocked when I heard of his tragic death (crossing
the English Channel during the 19 14-18 war in the Sussex, which
something for his children who were left destitute after both their
Was this the first time you played with Paderewski and Kreisler!
Mrs. Ram in Paris and she took me to hear Paderewski at the Salle
Erard, where he was giving a recital. We were sitting in the front seats
and when she took me to the artist's room to introduce me after the
concert, she went to talk to him first. Pointing to me with his fmger,
Paderewski said, "I know this young man and, tonight, I played for
Never.
Had anyone spoken to him about you?
No.
It is amazing, really. And when did he hear you play the 'cello for the
first time?
a charming boy who must have been nine or ten. He was Yehudi
When I had finished he came forward to greet me, and putting out his
hand said only, "Maestro". I was a bit confused, for Paderewski was
then at the height of his career, but it did not inflate my vanity for I
Did you see him again in Warsaw when he became President of the first
Polish Republic?
saw him again. He was a wonderful man. But fate led him also to a
tragic ^end!
Very intense, and they have the means to organise things in a way
that does not exist in Europe. For instance, at Cleveland it was Mrs.
Taft who made up the yearly deficit to the tune of thousands of dollars.
In Boston, a rich patron spent fabulous sums in order to give the city
one of the best orchestras in the world. The same thing happened in
patronising opera houses and symphony orchestras has been the origin
I often played, were most interesting. Thousands came and sat on the
floor.) To show you the intensity of the musical life in the States —
one day when I was playing at the High School at Richmond with
Well, considering I have gone across the States many times and
them. But, as you know, there were moral reasons which prevented
my going. 1
It was in 1905. Just at the time when the first revolution was
shaking the Empire of the Tsars. I was bound for Moscow, but when
we reached Vilna the train stopped and everyone had to get out. I
a high official of the railways. "You are Mr. Pablo Casals?" he said.
and I realised he knew all about me . . . even more than I knew myself
not going any further, but, if you like, I can take you to St. Petersburg
No, but we had exchanged letters and that was a sufficient reason
for me to share a compartment reserved for the general and his wife.
to us.
Such was the success that Siloti and I decided to give a series of con-
certs, which took place in a curious atmosphere because of the state
was all lit by candlelight because of the general strike. As I had lost
by hand as the printers were also on strike. One evening after the
ary character. So we crossed one of the bridges over the Neva and
got near the riot. I saw a good deal of shooting in the distance, when
lated it to me), "Long live the Republic of the Tsars!" They could
not even imagine that a Republic was possible without their Tsars !
Do you think that the more enlightened Russians thought the revolutionary
was singing the title part, Glazunov came to me to say that the com-
thought of the work. I thought that was a most friendly and modest
What about the group formed by the younger generation, like Stravinsky,
Did you see any productions of the Russian Ballet before it became known
outside Russia?
Yes, and you must realise that over there the ballet is a necessity
to compensate for the light and warmth they miss for such long
periods: the shining lights of the theatre make up for them and the
of the sun.
You told me once that upon entering Russia you felt a sense of suffocation.
Yes, it is true: when you go through the Customs you find these
enormous officials who look at you with suspicion and you feel
Petersburg when the Bourbons were back in France, wrote that the
You met it at every step, all the time — and you felt that the poor
were completely under the yoke of the aristocrats who flaunted their
for their people and to open up new horizons for them, but, at the
same time, you found so many of these students who, realising their
comfort to them.
When the cataclysm burst in 19 17 I was not surprised. But I must
say that the way some great people I knew were treated made me loathe
What of Italy?
What did you think of the country, the buildings and the museums?
and I did not hesitate to travel twenty-four hours each way in order
Symphonic music only started about fifty years ago and the
bel canto you speak of, the Opera with all the appealing melodies,
They were very proud of them, which does not mean that
course.
What was rather curious in those days was the fact that their
famous poets like Dante, Boccacio, were widely known, for you
would hear the most unexpected people reciting their poems by heart.
But nothing was played of the music of the glorious composers you
I went back there almost every year. Julius Rontgen was a great
worried. When he came back he was bursting with laughter: the police
had come to enquire about me. Not having received any countermand-
ing order from their chiefs all this time they had, naturally, followed me
up all over Holland. But Delange assured them I was not dangerous
and the affair was closed. This sort of thing happened to me in Russia
also. Coming back from Finland (before 19 14), the Tsarist Police
Siloti to tell him. He knew Polit, and when this chief heard the story
said I was arrested ! I told him who I was but he looked at me with
very suspicious eyes and began to question me. I smiled at him and
the people travelling with me began to laugh: one said to the police-
man, "Don't you know this is the Maestro, Pablo Casals?" The
paper to the effect that I admitted having been threatened with arrest
friendship grew from day to day. The more I knew him, the more I
liked him, and what a great artist he was! When he appeared on the
platform, one felt the presence of a king. He had a fine presence and was
of great stature, looking like a young lion with piercing eyes. His
who would say that he took too much liberty with the text and
could not control the flow of his fantasy. But if one thought of
formation, one could not fail to be carried away by the strength of his
personality.
Ysaye played every evening — and you must remember that it was a
Jacques Thibaud, for instance, played for a long time at the Cafe
Rouge in Paris. 1
2" think I have read somewhere that it was Anton Rubinstein who had
I don't know, but Ysaye told me that Joachim had heard him
play in this cafe in Berlin and was so enthusiastic that he told him he
Did you play under Ysaye when he conducted the Cincinnati Orchestra?
Yes, and also in Brussels with his own orchestra. I even played
there for his farewell concert when Queen Elizabeth came. It was a
solemn occasion which I shall never forget, the last concert he con-
ducted. I had a strong impression he would not live very long, but he
was so keen to show me his esteem, that as I came in to play the Lalo
Yes: you might even say that it was an " organised' ' incident. I
had known for some time that at these concerts it was the custom to
concert. As the public paid for their seats at the rehearsal, and the
artist only received one fee, I thought it was most unfair and a bad
feel the audience getting restive, and when the concert manager came
to me after the concerto asking me to play the Bach Suite I had put
down for the second half of the programme, I refused to play it, saying
there was no need for me to rehearse this alone. He insisted, but I did
not give way and the public became more restive and started shouting.
I waited until the Director came to me, saying, "Please, Mr. Casals,
will you play the Suite to this audience, who expect to hear it, and you
will be paid for two concerts." I had won on this question of principle
and the following evening, when the Director and the Treasurer came
allocate my second fee to the benevolent fund for the players of the
very clearly all the reasons for my protest — and, I am glad to say, -the
result of this incident was that they decided to do away with this
deplorable habit.
meeting Molnar, Bela Bartok and Kodaly ... I think Bartok deserves
the great name he is making for himself, but I have the greatest
admiration and liking for KodaTy, who is one of the simplest and most
charming artists I have come across. I think his works will last.
which must not be mixed up with the songs and the music of the
knew me and seemed to like me! I think no musician can help being
mental angle, the tzigane art is almost miraculous. One of the leaders
surprise, I saw him using all the fingering by extension, which I had
fingering he used was the same as on the violin, even in the first or
(I once went to hear the tziganes play with David Popper and I
was astounded to hear the old maestro telling me that their way of
world.
Sierra de los Leones, where the rebels were encamped. They were not
who looked at us with a very suspicious eye. I shall never forget the
riage to the concert hall, repeating this performance after the concert
was over.
The last concert took place at the Plaza de Toros, where music
and plays had replaced the "corridas" which were not allowed by the
enthusiastically.
Pavlova?
Yes, I did. I had read in the papers that a benefit performance for
the orchestra, and said, "Pavlova does not even know that I am here
came on to dance the Mort du Cygne the first 'cellist of the orchestra
should stop and I should play the solo off the stage, where they had a
piano. It so happened that while all this actually took place Pavlova
noticed there was something unusual and began to look at the side of
the stage ... as soon as it was over she ran into the wings and embraced
I feel that if one day circumstances altered for me, the first country
of Bach and Beethoven and I have always been struck by the atmos-
munication with this audience. I must say that he finds it ready to hand
in Germany.
fact. I must add also that not only most of the critics and audiences
who will stick to this nonsense they call "purism". But this minority
is disappearing fast and must disappear completely. So-called "objec-
touched me deeply. I had just played the Schumann Concerto with the
concert two men advanced towards me, and I could see that one of
them was blind. The other, who was holding the blind man by the
But why not? I feel that homage of this kind should be recorded.
I suppose that Vienna was the last of the European capitals you visited?
Yes, and only God knows how I wanted to go there, but it was
only seven or eight years after my dibut in Paris that I decided to go.
JOURNEYS, CONCERTS, FRIENDS 63
my hand but I had done it too violently and the bow fell in the ninth
one row to the other until it reached me. During these precious
Hall".
From then onwards I went to Vienna every year and always loved
I have known Schonberg well and I'll talk to you about him
another day. Vienna, more than any other city, has lived through the
history of music from the Classical School to the most modern one.
One could imagine that the young generation, having gone so far in
their search for new music, would look back to their musical ancestors
with a certain amount of disdain. But that attitude does not exist in
that their interest in new music has not altered their love for the great
You cannot imagine how very much alive one finds Haydn,
as the need for conversation. One day, when I was coming out of the
Bristol Hotel in Vienna, I noticed that the porter was humming a tune
while he put letters in their boxes. I said to him, "Do you know what
you are singing?" "Of course," he replied quite naturally. "The third
added, "So do most of the clerks and cab drivers and carpenters."
between Haydn and a copyist: one supported Haydn, the other the
the Brahms Double Concerto which, you said, remained one of the most
next day, after the concert I was giving, the Director of the Society
portrait from the most highly-qualified artist that could be found, and
to me, also gave me a piece of stone from the room where Beethoven
also memorable. This was the occasion when Ysaye played, for the
Eroica Symphony and the Triple Concerto with Cortot, Thibaud and
myself.
belle epoque; the Texas of the Westerns; the Russia of the Grand Dukes;
spent fortunes and engaged the most famous artists to give the best
having been to Japan, since all the musicians who went told me of the
150 to 200 concerts a year. But the fact that I always fulfilled my
concert: an artist has got to face these situations and be ready to put
making a film, and was dressed in his well-known get-up, with the
love for the humble people and pity for the poor. Whether Chaplin
are all the more laudable, and it is rather pathetic at the moment to see
the public knows better, and we all know how great an actor Charlie
66 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
Chaplin is. But talking again of the pianists who accompanied me, I
must say that Otto SchulhofF, who played with me in Europe and
America, had a very remarkable feeling for music and a special gift
orchestra in Barcelona, where the public loved him. For the last five
years you have heard him at the Prades Festivals and you have had the
chance to see what a simple, modest and retiring man he is. But what a
Of the great conductors you have played with I remember your naming
him a long time. We have had many very interesting and cordial talks.
tion of Beethoven. After the Second World War, when he came back
to Italy, he invited me to play with him, but there were so many invi-
always tried to compare them with my own views. I must add that
on the whole I have met with the greatest understanding from the
different conductors I have played with. There has been one exception,
settle it.
As you know, I played once a year for the benefit concert of the
time beforehand, and it was decided I should play the Dvorak Con-
certo. I arrived in Paris one morning for the dress rehearsal, having
spent the night in the train. I was waiting in the artists' room for my
JOURNEYS, CONCERTS, FRIENDS 67
turn to go on, when the conductor came in. We were looking at the
when he suddenly threw the score on the table saying, "What horrible
music !
repeated the same words slowly. "Are you mad?" I said. "How can
and if you are a musician yourself you must know how bad this music
is." I did not know how to contain my feelings: my hands and legs
were shaking and 1 said: "When I think I have travelled all night in
you not only scorn the work but detest it! In the circumstances it is
obvious that you don't understand it, and I don't see how I can
the public, who had paid for admittance, were filling up the hall. The
noticed Debussy, who was standing near us. I said to the conductor,
"Ask him if he thinks an artist can possibly play when feeling as I do."
"Come on," Debussy said, "if you wanted to play, you could play."
Such was the answer of the artist who wrote Pelleas and Milisande, and
interfere, said I could not go until he had got a bailiff to serve me with
a summons.
Yes. The bailiff put down the facts of the incident and the case
was heard a few months later in a Paris court. The barrister who was
was right. But I was made to pay a fine of 3000 francs and costs.
Thirty years later I still think I could not have played in such
he" has to interpret with you, in what physical and mental condition
can you be to play the work, and who would be responsible for
repented having been the cause of this incident, and said to some
They said, "Of course you should go." But he never came.
And now, living as you do in this quiet little town ofPrades, you can
rest after so much travelling and the agitated life of great cities to which you
have been accustomed. I know that you have imposed this retirement on
But what of all the great musicians and music-lovers who come to Prades
IV
When I was a child and played the organ. I was already longing
to conduct the choir in the church: I felt like saying to the tenors
"Do this" and to the sopranos "Do that".
Havana.
Orchestra.
Yes (Casals gave a rather wicked smile). I had been to see a doctor
What were your intentions when you created your own orchestra in
Barcelona?
Emil Ludwig says in his book that wh-n you started to do things for your
Of course not. I was convinced I was going to lose a lot, but I was
the musical life of my country. I had always had this idea, although
69
my profession took me abroad nearly all the year round. But, at that
time, I decided to fulfil the task I had planned because I could now
afford it.
quite hopeless. The two orchestras of Barcelona had not got any solid
financial basis and in spite of good material in the players and con-
and play with them in order to form a really first-class ensemble, but
they kept on saying that it could not be done and that I had been away
too long from Catalonia to know the real conditions there, and they
thought that my views were only idealistic ones! I went to see all
sorts of personalities and I must say that the result was disappointing
"I am taking charge of this project myself and hope to make a success
of it." They all thought Casals had gone mad and said, "It is all very
well to go about the world playing the violoncello, but why does he
faithful friends. First, Felip Vidal, who was enthusiastic about my idea
dealt without respite with all the financial problems. His wife, Madame
markings in the orchestral scores. They both went through the most
away by his optimism. He had already spent all his capital in support
of Schiller for the Ninth Symphony , The Creation of Haydn and all the
man as Pena fell a victim of the military rising which swept Catalonia
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 71
It was at his home that I had played my first string quartet when
"I am with you and I'll give what I can." He gave so much and he
everything.
the best I could find. They had previously been badly paid and came
punctually.
fortunately I then became seriously ill. I realised that all these prep-
me. I had three, and a doctor friend told me that one would have been
of the head which causes the headaches I still suffer from periodically.)
I had to stay in bed for weeks and weeks, which coincided with
with my scheme the dream I had of forming this great orchestra for
The scepticism I had met when I took the first steps turned into
leader, would make them rehearse some pieces, but most of the time
from the orchestra who saw me in bed and said they could not go on
one said, "and we don't know what to do." "Don't worry," I said,
"you lnvr signed .< < ontrat t with me and yon must keep it. Your fees
will be paid regularly uid, in the meantime, will you please meet
and make suggestions about Mir orchestra, in (act form a feeling <>f
Summer came, tlir spring season was over and everything w.r. m
the air. I f< It .1 hit bettci and against my doctor's orders I wanted to
kept faith, I wished them a good liolid.iy and told them we should give
our hi J concert Ul the autumn. In l.i< t our first comer! took pla< r on
the fourth of ()< tohei of that yeai .
iiv (ill remembe? how the orchestra tool- toot in Barcelona* lift ami how
Nevertheless the first few ye. us were a great struggle. At first the
rule we rave twenty < oik eit\ .1 ye.u : ten .11 the Spring and ten in the
who paid double. There were over a thoii'.and of them. Oiue •« ye.u I
Aflei -.even or eight year, it pud ItS own way hut until then I in.ide up
the deficits. 3 This orchestra had < ost me a tcrrifn amount ol woik,
What motives did yon hare besides (he patriotU ones that urged you to
create on orchestra?
Some people may he Surprised to he.u it, hut I have nevei heen
quite satisfied with only playing the \ ello. The responsibilities involved
mean a most exhausting amount of work and conceits aie a teinfi<
tax on the nei vous \y\tein. I feel as iiiik h .it home playing the \ ello,
sitting .it the piano 01 holding the conductor's baton, Making musit
daily diet. And wh.it hettei mst 1 uinent is there th.in an nuheslra,
Since it ni< ludeS them dl" It i| the supreme mediUffl foil anyone who
feels iiiiisk deeply and wants to ti.insl.ite (lie loim and shape of Ins
1 Although ( \i\,iJ\ dors not want such defalk to he published I know thai he tpeni
over *,ono t ot)o pesetas (about { jo ,()<>(> dollars at the rate before ";■'<))■
• In (hr days of his early tours C.asah had orue written to his great friend Julius
Uonlyen " If / hove hern \<> luippy uradhiny a riolomello t how \lutll I feel when I
o^
o^
(73 >-H
a^
o^
CD 3
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 73
country.
What were your guiding principles at first in your work with the orchestra?
for the work we were rehearsing. I was never satisfied until I could
obtain the most exact reproduction of the tempo and rhythm required,
in fact, until the "music" spoke. I did not mind repeating an explana-
The first work we rehearsed was the Ride of the Valkyries, note by
note. First the players seemed surprised — but they soon realised the
players to use my own technique and to all the others I suggested what
I thought was the best way. The fact that I had played many instru-
But all the time, I took great care not to use any language that
happy in the certainty that all these players understood that I did
I can remember that your orchestra gave a concert every year for the
Yes. A few years before the period we are discussing, the sup-
number of years.
engage in the year 1929 more well-known artists than any other
society in the world. However, their audience was not entirely made
up of music-lovers. To belong to the Associacio had become a fashion
and I know that during the concerts some people liked to talk rather
than listen to the music: there were even some who went as far as
of young men and girls, workers and clerks, who sang with the
greatest enthusiasm and who were very persevering under the direction
give them a few last tips just before the concert, and spent some
delightful moments talking to these simple folk who loved music for
Catalonia until July 1936, especially since most places wanted to pay homage
which made me a fill predilecte of Vendrell was the one that touched
Barcelona, and being warned by the manager that the audience would probably consist
mostly of young ladies who used the concert as a meeting-place with their boy friends.
This manager included in the programme a loose sheet of green paper on which was
written a short story of young people talking during a concert. The effect of it was stu-
2 A choir from a suburb called de Gracia where at the Cafe Tost Casals had made his
dibut in public.
8 Seep. 19.
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 75
admired these Castells. I had even practised how to do it, but I had
never thought that one day I would contemplate them from the
carefully.
occasion of the restoration of the old organ in the church. It had been
silent for a great many years, but I had not forgotten how I used to be
carried away in a world of dreams when I heard its deep and sweet
tone. With all the pipes eaten away by rust and the fabric dilapidated
it was dnly a shadow of what it had been. The new organist used a
harmonium. One day when I was visiting the church with a friend
moving and they presented me with the old music-stand which I keep
work and the Angel had lost an arm, and one leg was broken. Curiously
enough a small wild olive tree had grown on the top of the bell
tower (a bird must have dropped a seed from which the tree had
the village people to greet each other by saying, "How is the Rabell
today?" When they restored the statue the workmen had to take this
for me. But I preferred to have the tree carried to my house at Sant
Salvador, where it is still growing from a wall and waiting for me.
to Vendrell she writes that "Having seen Pau Casals talking to Jaume Nin,
the village carpenter, with his hand on his shoulder and having observed the
way these two men looked at each other, I think one can realise better the
I don't see why. My friend Nin and myself sat on the same bench
1 Pablo Casals— A Life, by Lillian Littlehales. (W. W.. Norton & Co., New
York.)
of our local schooL I went round the world and h in the village
as a carpenter. When we meet again with some other old friends, it is
just as it was in the days we went romping together among the vines
When you spent the summer at Sant Salvador you must have d:
I had a court at heme where I pbyc J with fnend& S :me of them were
Paris and if she did not win, :: was only because she was p
pions and I prefer those of thirty years ago, but the connoisseurs do
not share my opinion. A few years ago in Paris when I was watching a
Decugis' and Cochet's time were not superior to the ones of toe
faithful friends. Poor old thing: he has waited for me fifteen years.
He is not able to go about now, but my brother keeps him and looks
after him for the sake of the affection I had for him.
My mother was known all round for her kindness: when someone
asked her anything she never refused. She was the daughter of a
Catalan family which had emigrated to Puerto Pico, where she lived
till she was eighteen. She always had a nostalgia for her native place
and in the last years of her life she longed to return. "How I should
love to see Puerto Rico again," she said to me. "Well, let's go," I
said. "No, son," she answered, smiling and resigned. "You owe your
No, but I should love to go. You must have seen that touching
letter I received last year from the Rector of the Puerto Rican Univer-
■: :v:::-
—
A curious
rhv :: :
: Zurr
C::.:i
I tell v
r celona?
rue ih:e:e:hhi:
-: Xll
- ■_ . J
iorrur.iie >ree
PhiurY. Thh>
I could :"::
more beciu>e
All the time I
r ^_.
the Mi ?:uehi? ::
jvir. c
ve:
he:.
The uue: .■::;
stirrer: iulkuic
Mv
78 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
intention was to use any pause in our conversation to stress the con-
sequences that the Barcelona speech could have, since it had outraged
the Catalans in their most intimate feelings. (I felt all the more inclined
to broach this burning subject since the Queen had always told me she
started, but the Queen pretended she had not heard me. We went on
talking of one thing and another and I had not lost heart, but when
the next silence came, the same thing happened. So, this time, I gave
up.
always shown the greatest affection for me and with whom I had
grievance to be settled, she would not even listen! And so, the great
ones of the earth often prepare their own downfall! They are so
often surrounded by flatterers and courtiers who never tell them the
truth, that they fail to grasp realities and cannot face the facts as they
are. And as I knew T that Maria Cristina was the only one with any real
ascendancy over her son I had hoped that through my warning she
J read somewhere that the Liceu concert took place before your interview
with the Queen Mother.
No. Someone must have made a mistake. Shortly after this inter-
view, Alphonso came again to Barcelona with all the Royal family,
with pleasure. The concert took place at the Liceu where there was
I was playing.
Had there been an incident about the Marcha Real — the official Spanish
Hymn?
the orchestra, which he always did when I played solo. What happened
was that the public accorded the Royal family an icy welcome;
obviously the Catalans had not forgotten the speech, and wished to
show T their feelings. The March was received with equal indifference;
but when I appeared on the stage a wave of applause burst out, and
after it had gone on for some time the royalties decided to get up
like all the audience had done when I came in! Shouts went up,
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 79
and one soon realised that the concert had turned into a political
affair and an occasion for a protest against the speech. The police
made some arrests amongst the public. When I had finished playing
compatriots.
their box during the interval, which I always did, I thought, "Here is
especially because of the Queen Mother, but considering the fact that
my feelings in the matter were exactly those of all Catalans, I did not
Yes, but in a very curious way. Some two years after the concert
This concert took place in the Salle d'Armes of the Palacio de Oriente,
there were present all the highest dignitaries as well as the Corps
Diplomatique, all wearing uniforms and decorations. At the end of the
mild scandal against all the etiquette practised at this sort of reception.
played games together; he enquired after all my family and all sorts
of details. All the audience was still standing, including the Italian
royalties, and for at least twenty minutes this went on. I looked at the
Queen Mother with a question in my eyes: "How will all this finish?"
with a smile, and then came the words I was expecting: "Well,
Pablo, I want to tell you how happy I was to see how the Catalans
other and laughed, and I think we both had the same thought: "We
to me. It was a lovely gesture from him and also a proof of the
Did you see him after the Spanish Republic had been proclaimed and he
had left Spain?
No. In 1938 at the end of the civil war, and during the period of
reply but said he was really too ill to be able to do anything. In fact,
Yes. The day after the installation of the new regime, the 15th
president, Francesc Macia, who was present, declared that the Republic
Did your relations with the Spanish Royal family create any difficulty
None at all. As I have told you, my relations with the Royal family
The Queen Mother died in 1929, and Alphonso himself had bowed
4 'I, who owe so much to the late Queen Maria Cristina, who was a
next morning, I realised that the Press had agreed with my declaration.
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 8l
position. But I was happy to preside over this venture in art which
wanted a real democracy in which institutions like the Army and the
Church would be given their proper place, and where the social
economy of the country would find its own level again after it had been
for so long in the hands of the rich families whose selfishness made
had given us our autonomy, which all our people desired and which
Like so many well-known artists, you could have ignored the problems
of your country and only looked upon it as a nice place where you could
science would have told me that to act like this would be unworthy
In the years preceding the civil war, all your countrymen had realised
more and more your devotion to the cause and bestowed all their admiration
on you. You must remember the memorable homage Barcelona paid to you
in 1934? 1
How could I ever forget it, especially since I have been exiled?
1 This ceremony, in which more than 200 Catalan Societies and Institutions took
part, grew into an imposing demonstration. The name of Avenue Pau Casals was given
The municipality struck a medal which was presented to him and an exhibition of some
of his possessions was opened at the Arts Museum of Catalonia. At the same time
America staged some celebrations connected with the Hispanic Museum in New York.
The founder of this Museum, Mr. Archer Huntington, had commissioned a sculptor,
Brenda Putnam, to do a bust of Casals and he opened a subscription (which was covered
by yoo 'cellists of the United States) to reproduce this bust and present it to the town of
Barcelona in admiration for Casals. At that time the XlVth International Festival of
Contemporary Music was taking place in Barcelona, and it was a good occasion to present
the bust at a ceremony where Dr. Carlton Sprague Smith, Head of the Music Library
of New York, delivered a speech in Spanish. At the Palace of Montjuic a great concert
was given by the three orchestras of Spa ■: the Pau Casals Orchestra, the Symphony
What I do remember most are not all those tributes (although I have
realisation of the task I had set myself to accomplish and which was so
savagely interrupted.
In your opinion, which are the principal qualities a conductor should
possess?
The most convincing proof of his value can be found in his ability
asked to conduct a concert I ask for three long rehearsals. Even when
you deal with a good orchestra, it is not enough to "conduct" it. All
the details must be gone into and absorbed into a harmonious whole.
violoncello.
That is one of the principal dangers. The conductor must know how
to fight against the bad habits which can always creep into an orchestra,
his players so that they all end by putting technique at the service of
The thing which counts for the conductor is that he must be very
others.
(Casals has a habit of singing aloud during the rehearsals and waving
his arms and body in a way which leaves no doubt of his intentions.)
Toscanini says that orchestras are prone to think that a work is easy
because it is very well known; that, of course, means they will not bring the
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 83
That is true, and I shall give you an example. When I was conduct-
for which I could only get an hour on the day of the concert. So I
decided to stop as little as possible, until we got to the Minuet where
the horn plays the melody. I thought he did not play it in the right
way and I told him how I thought of it. He was so offended that he
packed up his instrument and went. Think of it: the first horn player
which he and all his colleagues could have played by heart! '
at what has happened. We did appreciate all your remarks and tonight
our horn player will do as you asked him." In the evening the per-
I should have corrected many details that I had not approved of. It
was exactly this question of routine, which can play havoc even with
Many people have noticed how you address your players with a certain
itself. The players are generally happy when they feel that the remarks
Not for me. Rehearsing is the sort of work I like and enjoy. It is
to all.
When you are on tour and you have to deal with an unknown
tell or not. One look sometimes is enough to judge the new "boss".
Rudolf von Tobel says in his book: 1 that you belong to the category of the
"orchestral educator 1 * and that anybody who has not seen you doing this sort
of work, which you prefer above any other, cannot get a clear picture of your
personality.
It is not for me to judge the opinions of other people, but I do
A good many conductors seem to think that they should keep their
tions they had. And you have been able to see for yourself the atmo-
Ludwig asked you this: " When you conduct an orchestra one day and
the next day play the 'cello under some other conductor, how do you manage
to pass from being the 'general' to being the 'private ?" And you answered:
I feel that from the strictly musical angle there is no difference for me
When you play as a soloist you don t feel disturbed by the conductor that
exists in yourself?
The fact is that it does not disturb me actually, but I cannot get rid
too late, some unsteady rhythm, a bad intonation. I get surprised, but
the Brahms Double Concerto), Kleiber, Fritz Busch, etc., and also
some Spanish and Catalan composers when their own works were
being played.
Tell me about the concert where Ysaye played in public for the last time.
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 85
That was a very moving occasion. It was in 1927. We were at the
time preparing the Beethoven centenary. I saw Ysaye and told him he
must come and play the Violin Concerto. He refused (he had ceased
took my hands and said, "As long as the miracle happens." The
concert was to take place in five months. But soon after I received a
letter from Ysaye's son. It said: "If you could only see my dear father,
most carefully (and the audience also a little). There were some
good-bye to him next day at the station. Leaning out of the carriage
with them. 1
playing the violin near the sea on a sandbank. "La Panne 1916. The
modest seaside resort which became a Royal residence'' The photograph
No, this portrait has a long story attached to it. In 1939, soon after
the war was declared, a queer person dashed into the modest "Grand
1 77m 15 what Ysaye wrote about the concerts of the Beethoven Festival in Barcelona.
"In order to realise the enthusiasm and the warmth of a Catalan audience one
must have heard these model performances. They seem to have such an instinct
for beauty. I heard Casals conduct the C Minor Symphony twice. It is due to his
energy and the genius of his interpretations that Barcelona has become a centre
for music par excellence. Casals conducts the orchestra he founded with such
Beethoven's spirit that one cannot help being moved to the quick. I had the
honour of conducting the Eroica and of playing the Violin Concerto. I also
never forget the frenzy the audience got into. They were all delirious and one had
a sensation of something which only happens once in a lifetime and also the
highest artistic lesson. I could write reams about this but I shall only add this
aphorism which will tell all my thoughts: 'AH is possible when the man is there'."
"You and I are swine. But in Prades there is a . . ." and there he applied
look like when they are called swine! After long and complicated
coming to see me. His very aspect made me jump with the memories
know you are in a precarious financial position," and out of his pocket-
realised I would not accept them he said, "I shall give you a thing I
which had been given to him by the Queen herself. I shall never forget
his generosity.
What should one do to become a good conductor? I have read that Tosca-
performance o/Aida. You cannot become a good conductor if you cannot use a
good orchestra, and a good orchestra will not be lent to you if you are not a
ing. Supposing the orchestra is a bad one and the new conductor
capable.
Herman Scherchen declares that the conductor has at his disposal three
tion by word of mouth" . What do you think of " expressive mime" to help
the musicians in finding the kind of expression suitable to the music they
play?
I agree with this as long as the mime is a natural one and not
studied.
One day a young musician asked Furtwangler, " What is, in fact, the
role of your left hand when you conduct?" Trying to answer this question,
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 87
the great German conductor said: "After over twenty years of conducting,
I must say that I had never thought of it." 1
left hand, as well as his right one, contributes towards the expression
J have read that your old friend Bruno Walter sometimes stops a rehearsal
and instead of making observations to his players, he just says — please let us
Toscanini and Furtw angler are the two conductors you admire most?
was timed with a stop-watch, it was discovered that there was only a differ-
ence of one or two seconds in performances of the same work given many
years later. 2
I don't understand what conclusion should be drawn from this
assertion. Toscanini, like all great artists, does not lack in creative
fantasy. And since a musical work does not always appear to the artist
Furtwangler writes: "A small orchestra that has no pretensions but has
become a real ensemble will be without doubt more efficient than the most
Have you always agreed with him when you played under his direction?
And which conductors did you appreciate most some fifty years ago,
Besides the well-known ones, any work that has a musical interest.
for a long time but I did not think I could start it before my own
That did not interest me: I had heard and played at such concerts
in different countries and I had noticed the people who profited from
them were not those for whom the concerts were given. What I
and I wished to alter that. I wanted the men and women who spent
most of their days in the factories, the shops or the offices, to be able to
participate in our musical life and in such a way that their outlook on
J. A. Clave. 1
That is what I meant: I wished to continue his work. His idea was to
take the workmen away from the "pubs" and give them the joy of
choral singing instead. Clave was a great man and composed some
one evening after work and as I told them of my plans I said that the
You will have my orchestra, with well-known soloists, and I'll play
< OS
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 89
them. It was not surprising, for it was all new to them. They were
simple people and could not imagine they would get something without
being asked to give something in return. At the end of our talk they
said they would think it over, and would send me an answer. A few
days after I received rather a stern letter asking me for more precise
gradually they understood what I meant. I told them that, for the
moment, they could use a room of the Atetenu Politecnic, "but later
on, you will have your own place. Your Society will spread and
have branches all over Catalonia. You will not lack furniture and
You will have a music school, a choir and an orchestra all of your
own." "And all this will cost us six pesetas a year?" "Yes." (They
concerts."
The first basic idea of mine was that the workman should feel at
that have nothing to do with the music he is listening to. I wanted the
this Society was that simple-minded people don't like to feel that
they are being given things out of charity. I said to them, "When you
spend six pesetas a year, you will really be spending more than the rich
people who pay twenty pesetas for one concert at the Liceu."
to help organise the beginning when I asked him. They had all the
had decided that only those who did not get a salary higher than 500
1 In those days in Barcelona, an expert workman earned about ten pesetas a day and
the basic salary of a professor at the University was precisely 500 pesetas a month.
suggested. Soon after the Society was founded, we gave the first
about it. All the things I had predicted were realised: the library, the
music school, the choir were formed. The monthly review called
which revealed the enquiring minds of the writers. All the concert
the works and the performers. And do you know which was the
Bach! This is a fact which will make certain people think again
works of Bach.
carpenter, had made his own instrument and used to walk to the
rehearsals all the way from the suburbs where he lived, carrying it on
his back. This is the sort of thing which makes life worth living: the
The members of the committee came to see me one day and their
went on to say that they were feeling strong now and wanted to
extend their activities beyond music. They thought they had a mission
what they wanted. I said: "You have fallen into a trap: if you start
in this direction, all we have done will collapse. From the day you
begin to interfere with the elections you will have enemies everywhere,
and all your understanding and the collaboration you have built up
will automatically fall to the ground." They were not very pleased,
CASALS AS A CONDUCTOR 91
but they accepted what I said because of my ascendancy over
them.
Sabadell, Terrassa, and the big industrial towns of Catalonia, and when
the civil war started they had thousands and thousands of members
everywhere.
play for them. Their success and their influence were so well known
that different countries such as the United States, England and Germany
And now?
the Music Council. But if things altered and I felt strong enough, I
would start again with the same enthusiasm I had when I began.
you have often named Emmanuel Moor, Sir Donald Tovey and Julius
Rontgen.
you that the names of the many composers you see on programmes
only their music was played — and in saying this I weigh my words
carefully.
paper under his arm. He sat at the piano and played me his 'cello
concerto. The way he dealt with the piano, the way he looked, and
playing marvellously well, and his music had such quality that I began
turned towards me. I looked him straight in the face and said in all
holding me tight in his arms. And with deep emotion he told me the
his music except his wife. His creative power had dried up since no one
92
would understand. He had been told so often that what he wrote was
written for ten years. As his wife had means he had become a landed
or two string quartets, or a Mass, and so on. His output was endless,
Boccherini.
And so you decided to make his compositions known, since you admired
him so much?
Yes, I really admired him and became more and more convinced
every day of his great gifts. I began to busy myself about getting his
and Dumesnil would play his works, although the} did it without
But there was a general antipathy towards Moor himself and for his
compositions.
And what did people think of his music, apart from the man himself?
and myself.
There were ten competitors left after we had sifted all the entries,
piano and began to play. All the members of the jury came in one after
the other (the first one was Colonne). When I had finished I found
they were all standing round the piano and I heard one say, "It must
anyone he met, with the result that people always wished to get rid of
in a brusque direct way. However, one found that what he said and
did (although not pleasant) was often true. Others did not understand
him because they didn't know him as well as I did, and because the
admiration and sympathy I had for him (which I alone felt) allowed
Moor ate like a lion, and to tell the truth, it was not very pleasant to see
him at table, when, with his teeth protruding like an animal, he gobbled
was behind the mind of this man, who devoured what was put in
front of him. Moor did not sleep: music disturbed and absorbed him
with so much intensity that it took his sleep away. And because of
I believe you succeeded in getting one of his works played at the Classical
Yes. This is what happened, and you will judge how Moor's
of the Classical Concert Society never went further than Brahms, and
engaged artists of the highest rank. They had Jelly d'Aranyi (a relation
pianist of that period), Fanny Davies, etc. (Borwick and Fanny Davies
had both been pupils of Clara Schumann.) Moor and I went specially
to London for this concert. I am not telling you of all the incidents of
a Bach Sonata, a Bach Suite for 'cello alone, and a Sonata by Moor.
the piano, had his back to Moor, who was on his right. As I was to the
right of Borwick I could see them both, and I realised pretty soon
that Moor was not pleased. It was Beethoven we were rehearsing, and
the first page I saw Moor get up and, with a frightful look on his face,
push Borwick off with savage energy, saying, "I am going to show you
how to play Bach": and he sat at the piano. You can imagine what the
situation was. At the end of the movement Borwick just said, "Thank
Yes, like the real gentleman he was. But no one could get on with
manners were rough and ready, but all the same he had genius. He
situations. I'll tell you of what he did during one of his monthly visits
in one act! At that moment there was a knock at the door: it was
Szanto, a Hungarian pianist, very well known for his Bach tran-
asked Moor (who was also a Hungarian) if he knew his Bach tran-
scriptions. (As I knew how impatient Moor was, I felt there was
through one work and Moor did not say a word. He played a second
these, Mr. Moor?" On which Moor got up and shouted at him, "I
saying he was a man who got easily upset and would he come another
day. I saw him off and when I returned to the room I told Moor
what I thought of his behaviour. He put his head down like a child
who has been scolded and murmured: "Don't you think as I do? Well
then?"
solutions and had been built by Pleyel. He had also conceived a string
instrument which included all the registers from bass to that of the
You have played his Concerto for Two 'Celli with Guilhermina Suggia,
haven t you?
in many Swiss towns with the Romand Orchestra (which was perhaps
get Moor to hear it and say what he thought. During the rehearsals
neither Cortot or Thibaud made any comments, probably on account
that he would not play this work unless he could rewrite the piano
part himself. So I just said that if any change. was made Moor must be
indications, which did not please me very much, but I abstained from
any comment. (A few years later the work was published in its
original form — which, of course, did not meet with Cortot's approval.)
Cortot invited Moor to come and when he heard the work with all
terrible storm got up. It was getting dark, so I asked Cortot, in case
the storm went on, if Moor could be put up for the night. He refused.
It was a long way to the station, so I thought 1 would walk with Moor,
but they would not let me go and even held me by the arm in order to
stop me. However, when the first Swiss concert took place, this
success. After the second concert I noticed that Cortot and Thibaud
did not seem so hostile to the work as they had been, and as the
had gone to bed at my hotel after the last concert when I heard a knock
at the door, and when I opened it I was surprised to see Cortot and
Thibaud, who, after apologising for the late hour, said they wanted to
have a word with me! They explained that during our rehearsals of the
the Franck Trios had decreased, whereas the value of the Triple
Concerto had increased until they could now share all my admiration
This was not the only one (you remember what had happened
Coming back from England one day I met Ysaye on the ship.
at some other time, I was still very unwilling." "I had noticed it,
but did not want to bother you further with my suggestion." "Well,
I must tell you now that as time goes on, I admire Moor's music more
and more. I have just been on tour in England, during which I played
his Violin Concerto nine times, and my liking for it has increased
stood during his lifetime nor, until now, any more recognised after
his death.
once said that he could discuss music with Brahms and the two
he had already played a sonata of his with the great violinist. It was in
1909 that I played for the first time with Tovey, a composition of his
98 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
J have read that Tovey went to Bayreuth in 1897 and, although he did
Until that date we don t find Tovey talking about Wagner. Would it be
well known that the great writer and the apologist of lyric drama
played the Goldberg Variations. His biographer 1 says that this interpretation
of the Bach work made a sensation in the German capital, where the audience
seemed to be hearing it for the first time, however incredible this may appear.
me with the Bach Suites. It was necessary to show the Germans how
who doubted his personality as a great pianist did' not, or could not,
understand him. He tackled the most imposing and difficult works for
the piano with a science and a mastery that were almost baffling.
Richer was surprised by the choice of Tovey s programme for his first
I felt how important the occasion was for me, I chose to play a work
These were so profound and concise that they all become works
University Press.)
THREE UNKNOWN MASTERS 99
ledge and such penetrating vision that one could say he was without
probably on account of the kind of wit which was one of his char-
frightened !
I see that at the time you knew him Tovey was already a target for some
order of reactionary purists who had elected him as their Pope". Was there in
I never heard him say a word of this kind. His difficulty, as far as
his artistic career was concerned, was his enormous superiority, which
period.
in England.
All his lectures and his writings are crammed with brilliant ideas,
and one looks in vain to find another man in our time who has written
Did you hear the Reid Symphony Orchestra which Tovey created in
Edinburgh?
admired the works of Juli Garreta, a Catalan who had taught himself
music and had composed some lovely Sardanas and some remarkable
not feel he was getting the real character of this work, so would I
conduct it! So I did, and the Pastoral of Garreta had a great success.
I had in Prades, in that the "spirit" of it was different from that of the
ferocious work he put into it, as well as his great knowledge, that
dear friend Dr. Schweitzer). I also use the Rontgen edition. Both these
saying how proud he felt that an Englishman had done a work that no
I see that your friend Tovey went to give concerts in America in 1925.
I was in America at the time. Tovey gave four recitals at which
critic, Aldrich, wrote that these concerts stood as the most important
I also read in Mary Griersons book that Tovey had given three concerts
in London after having been away for a considerable period, and that some
critics had said that Tovey took liberties with the tempi. And Mary Grierson
goes on to say: "Even by the metronome, Tovey remained round the tempo all
the time. What really happened was that people were not used to hearing
his version and thought he was taking liberties with the time."
fundamental tempo suggested two different aspects, one fluent and the other
large, but both of which were connected with the time of a metronome".
Neither the rubatos of his Chopin nor the "big gestures" of his Brahms ever
Of Handel, Tovey said: "Beethoven was right when he called him the
greatest of the Masters and without parallel for producing great effects with
find analogies and differences between Bach and Handel. Now and
games. One of them was laughing at Handel. He would sit at the piano
and sing and play in the style of Handel in the most amusing fashion.
But he would not do that with Bach: and that showed the distinction
values.
I heard that in his late years Tovey became very sensitive to what he
and Dr. Schweitzer. But I must add Mr. Trevelyan, the famous
English historian who wrote the libretto for Tovey's opera called
The Bride of Dionysius; the Busch brothers, Adolf and Fritz, and many
others !
After the first performance of his opera, The Times wrote again
understood he was.
Was it Tovey who proposed you for the title of Doctor honoris causa
at Edinburgh University?
Yes. It was in 1934, and the title was conferred on Albert Schweitzer
at the same time. It was also on this occasion that I met this wonderful
man. He had already published his book on Bach called The Poet
Musician, and I realised how our two poetical visions were alike on
for Dr. Schweitzer, the man who had taught us all what virtue there
stay, but I had some engagements to fulfil and I had to go. After the
last concert, I was leaving the concert hall by myself when I heard
stood in front of me and said, "Listen, since thou must go, thou must
at least say thou to me before we part." Of course I said a few things
day to day. Not so very long ago, in 195 1, he was kind enough to
Albert Einstein thought that Schweitzer was the greatest man of our
day.
number of important people heard it, and many critics who had come
from London. 2 (I remember that, on this occasion, I had to try hard
to pull myself together for I had been suffering for some time from
pains in the left thumb which none of the great specialists I consulted
bristle from a nailbrush which, having got into my thumb, had kept it
inflamed.)
After the concert I got into a carriage with Tovey, who was most
deeply moved and said, "Today I had what was never granted to
1 Casals had written to Tovey thus: "Dear Donald, The day I received your
concerto will remain one of the most important of my life. It caused me a great
joy and I do appreciate the words you wrote in your dedication, which I hope I
shall be able to do justice to." The date of the first performance was fixed for 22nd
November, 1934. "This date," Casals says, "will be the most important in my
2 The Times said: "Senor Pau Casals wished to give London the chance of hearing
on Thursday evening with the Reid Symphony Orchestra, the composer conducting'*
composer to whom Queens Hall need listen. The loss in the case of this violoncello
concerto is to the Queen's Hall audiences. In the B.B.C Symphony Orchestra we have
one of the most richly endowed orchestral institutions in the world. In the Royal Phil-
harmonic we have a society which for over a hundred years has claimed to represent,
among other things, the best products of native composition. If both decide to ignore a
work which is clearly one of considerable power and intimate beauty and which, moreover,
is sponsored by the greatest exponent of violoncello playing in the world, they will be
very foolish. . . . The whole concerto grows out of the genius of the violoncello, and it
takes all Casals' genius to display its qualities. That in itself is worth going to Edinburgh
to hear.'*
never knew how much he loved his "clavier"! When I played his
in London with Tovey conducting, the critic of the Observer wrote that, as
Tovey was very nervous on that day, but all the same he was a
conducted one of the Leonora overtures in a way that was finer than
sitting on the same platform as he was. The curious thing about Tovey
What, do you imagine, are the reasons why his compositions are not
understood?
label which it is extremely difficult to get rid of. And, further, the
works of Elgar, Tovey and Vaughan Williams, has been very im-
portant, not to say the most important, in connection with the general
English music of that period has definitely turned its back on the so-
In 1945, when I went to England for the last time, I visited Tovey's
I was very deeply moved. I sat down at his old piano and, unable to
hold back some tears, I played the opening of his 'Cello Concerto.
When I got up, I said to those who were around the words I always
Yes, his ancestors, both on his father's and his mother's side, were
distinguished musicians. The well-known 'cellist, Julius Klengel, was
a cousin of his. His father had been leader of the Gewandhaus Orchestra
When Rontgen was fourteen, his father and Joachim played his duo
for viola and piano at Diisseldorf during the Rhine Festival of Music.
Young Julius was sitting next to them on the platform listening intently to
Yes, and also as a musician of the highest rank. The term "Master"
the value of his teaching and by the mark he made on all those who
"Only the greatness and the richness of Bach* s art would not suffer by com-
as a composer."
When Rontgen was fifteen he went with his mother to see Liszt at
Weimar [this was in March 1870), and he gives a very amusing account
of this visit in one of his letters: "On the way," writes young Rontgen,
"we had a look at Weimar. I have never seen such a place for bad taste:
Goethe's and Schiller s statues look like two commercial travellers. After
walking for about half an hour we reached the Allee in Belveder, a pretty
place where Liszt and Preller live. Waiting until Liszt sent for us, we had
coffee with Preller. But we waited in vain, and the next day Preller told me
decided to go alone. I did not feel embarrassed and when I got there I found that
his butler, although born in Bonn, did not understand a word of German.
However, I managed to explain to him what I wanted and he took me to his
master. Liszt was occupied with a visitor and he treated him with such
haughtiness that I quite lost heart. But I asked Liszt to tell me when he could
possibly hear me play a little piece of mine, and he told me immediately to sit
at the piano. I rushed downstairs to tell my mother to come up, and sat at the
Bechstein and started playing my Prelude in D|?: I had not played three
bars of it before he stopped me and began saying how original and masterly
he thought it! I started playing again, and he stopped me and talked in the
same vein. So I thought I had better play something else, and started my
said I was to come and visit him in Leipzig. You cannot imagine how charming
he was to us, especially to me. I don't think anybody has ever enjoyed this
some flattering remark, which was always so true and musicianly that I
"At the matinee all the compositions were his. The brothers Fern began
with Festklange, which was not too bad on two pianos, Liszt conducting
with his finger. Directly after, Scario sang a few songs, then an ugly
woman singer sang an even more ugly song of Liszt's with him at the
piano. Then Brassin played the Concerto in E[j major, and a Polish Coun-
tess, the Mephisto Waltz. Well, allow me to tell you, these people can
play the piano! It is incredible. And yet the idolatry they have for Liszt is
enough to make you sick: they kissed his hand after each bar, they shouted
bravo furiously. When the music seance was over we bade farewell to
Liszt, who had introduced me to all these people as 'pianist and composer'
like was the fuss, the atmosphere and incense and exaggerated flattery
which surrounded Liszt. But, of course, one must not forget (as Siloti
used to) that Liszt was an elemental force, whose passage raised a
Rontgen himself, and his parents, were also great friends of Clara
think this is music for all time. It requires too much effort without
reaching the summit. But time will ultimately decide.") But, .through
major: "I see now that, if I did not like this work at first, it was entirely
my fault, as was the case with many other works of Brahms.")
also in the names he gave to his sons: Johannes (in memory of Brahms),
Grieg).
He was a man who looked old, with a large head which reminded
me of Einstein, but better looking, and two blue shining eyes with a
of the most delicate kind and he seemed to live in that noble dream of a
patriotic ideal which you find reflected in his music. Rontgen had
played it to Grieg on that day, and I also played the C minor Suite
of Bach for 'cello alone. Grieg wrote the same evening to his friend
drama," he said). 1 Afterwards Grieg sat at the piano and his wife
Nina sang a cycle of songs Grieg had written for her when they were
1 Grieg wrote about this performance by Casals: "This man does not perform,
he resuscitates.' 1
No. Grieg's music primarily suggests the character and the pictorial
but his art is altogether on a much higher plane and I think his musical
It is a great pity that the book of Rontgen s letters does not contain those
he wrote to you.
Do you know why? In 1914, just before the war started, I gave up
to Paris at the end of the war I realised that the police had been search-
ing all these cases and all the papers were spread on the floor in the
most awful mess, and I could not find Rontgen's letters any more than
value of the Sonata of Rontgen for piano and 'cello at a good performance
of the work, would share Mendelssohn s opinion when he said that music is
This Sonata stands comparison with the best ones written for the
wife and gave it to me. They spent a few marvellous days at the
Villa Molitorl On the day of their departure we were all sitting in the
garden, when Rontgen went back into the house to play the Beethoven
It is Tovey who says: "No one who has seen him dealing with young
I saw him shortly before his death. He had been taken for a few
health was worse and his wife wrote to me asking me to come as soon
looked a different man; we spent the whole day in his room playing
music. The next day, after I had gone, he became unconscious and he
died a few days later. I had felt when I was there before that it was the
neglected, but which give him a place next to the most remarkable
unrecognised. But I feel sure that their time will come. Only the
VI
At the time of the 1950 Bach Festival at Prades you wrote: "The
miracle of Bach has not appeared in any other art. To strip human nature
until its divine attributes are made clear, to inform ordinary activities with
to make divine things human and human things divine; such is Bach, the
man, who knows everything and feels everything, cannot write one
I have been told that for many years you have been in the habit of starting
and induces a calm and cheerful frame of mind for the day's
activities.
found in this work. Quite simply, the Preludes and Fugues are great
their construction. Cherubini did not accept them as Bach had con-
ceived them. According to him, they were not real fugues because
109
ITO CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
they were free. It shows that Bach thought of the fugue as a means of
expression, and not as a dry and formal thing. He held that when a
overdo anything. The Master only brings the part in again when the
sense of the music demands it. That is the right way to create.
"Never did any teaeher make his pupils a more precious gift (The Wcll-
form seems to put technical skill before poetry and inspiration, Bach is able to
express his personality with great eloquence. Each of the ninety-six pieces
movement, which could have come from the St. Matthew Passion.
Bach also gives us all qualities inherent to the major keys — grandeur,
joy, simplicity, even high spirits. To hell with the notion that these
greatness.
Yes. Bach being the universal genius, there is no emotion that has
not been expressed by him, except stinginess, meanness and all that is
incompatible with a noble mind. In Ins works you find some feelings
Your friend lovey, as one among many, had completed The Art of
Yet.
Dr. Schweitzer does not think that The Art of Fugue was unfinished.
He thinks the error arises out of (he way in which the work was edited after
Bach's death.
1 This quotation, and the others in this chapter from William Cart, are
From what I have read and from what Tovey told me, I am sure
"No-one has known how to make the organ speak as Bach has. He was
its most astonishing virtuoso, its most learned and poetical composer, its
"Theatrical effects trere finding their way into church music. Con-
secular tunes, even during services. The true style of religious music ivas
declining. Bach's tnusic seemed outdated. But it is well known that the way of
action, defending alone the post which his fall would deliver into the hands of
the enemy. This sense of isolation makes him disdain the apptoval of the
crowd. He no longer seeks to please others, he watits above all things, his
When he wants to, Bach knows how to get near the people without
using flattery or trying to win its approval by presenting something
facile. I [e knows, better than anyone, how to make use of that deeply
facts that most reflects the character ot~ Bach is that the theatre never
on a farm. Once when Bach went to a town with one of his sons (I
cannot recall which one), he said to him about some theatrical show
going on there, "Let's go and hear this little music." This remark,
if not actually scornful, is at any rate detached and ironical and tells
What do you think of this opinion: "The form of the Cantata Arias
ends by becoming monotonous. It can be said Straight away (hat of all Bach's
output, it is the Arias, cast in the Italian mould, which bear the hallmark oj
Why think that? You have the contrast between the Arias and the
choruses, each bringing out the value of the other. As for the Arias,
recitatives of the Cantatas are in the Italian style, but we must not
pure and simple, as found in the actus tragicus, is very superior to the
genius, being no more nor less than the original form of what will be brought
so simple and at the same time so rich, that Bach has abandoned for the
recitative aria in the Italian Operatic style. He does not seem to realise that
these foreign influences don't suit his genius, and he does not notice that the
of his ideas." 1
Bach has made his choice. It is not for me to object. He must have
done so because this form attracted him, and if, in this way, he has
Schweitzer.)
Schweitzer's book in the German edition, a fairly long time ago. When
that the Italian recitative acted as an influence on Bach. The very fact of
musical form. And why shouldn't Bach, this man who has created
universal genius, the great master felt a need to absorb all that sur-
1 All the Schweitzer quotations are from his book, J. S. Bach, Musician and
Poet.
JOHANN SEBASTIAN BACH 113
accept this. If a work of art is of a high order its form and the style in
contained in it is of true value. And what should we say about the aria
Italian recitative?
No, but he copied with his own hand works by Italian and French
patient and attentive pupil of all the great masters. His genius, which
was always drawn to great art, of any kind or any origin. I don't deny
that Bach is a German master, but it is a mistake to try and restrict him
with a national label, and an even greater one to connect him with the
who shine over all nations and all time. And also, as I have said before,
the blame for Bach being misunderstood for so long rests with the
Germans themselves. They used to, and still do, perform the music
so that the two guests, Ansorge and myself, would first meet in a
I calmly walked to a piano there was in the room and began to play
some Bach piece of the same character as the first movement of the
wild temper and went to tell Dr. Meyer and his wife that as long as
"this man" was there, he would not come near the house. As a matter
idea of music. It was his godliness that kept and sustained his laborious
existence — and mysticism was the life-spring of his godliness. He felt a deep
need for eternal rest and tranquillity. Never has the nostalgie de la mort
believer and a man whose occupation led him to serve the Church.
allusion: the simple joy of the people, the popular dances, the elegance,
We know that Bach had the most sincere religious feeling: in all
the Passions and the Chorales he has given expression to his faith in
the most complete and the greatest way, but I insist this inspiration
is far from being the only one in his work. I think that Bach was
a poet who felt the necessity of translating all noble thoughts into
music.
Siisser Todt, you said, "I cannot hear this without being moved in the
in a more perfect way, nor can anyone go deeper than Bach in any of
About the place the Chorales occupy in the Cantatas, William Cart
says: "The instruments mostly reinforce the melody known by the congrega-
tion, and if they sometimes seem to take flight into more luminous heights,
for anyone to understand what Bach means. In spite of all things human art
can invent, it is the simple Chorale that becomes the most sincere expression
of the Church, and all the Cantata is only a preparation for it."
from folk-song, and through which Bach could achieve the most
intimate communion with the faithful. The Chorale, with its religious
"If one begins to study the Cantatas, one gets so accustomed to wonders
that one ends by finding the most astonishing things quite natural. The
"Bach's nature, with all its strength, was so sensitive and mobile that
the slightest shock made it vibrate. Since all the strings of his artistic nature
were musical they started singing at the least touch. Bach and Mozart are
alike in this respect. Their truest and only mode of expression was through
music: whether they wanted it or not they could not help it."
is right. "Since all the strings of his artistic nature were musical, they
is it?
Dr. Schweitzer says: "Yet Bach was a poet because what he looked for
Yes, Bach did look for poetry in a text and he knew how to breathe
greatly served the cause of Bach in putting forward the poetical aspect
of his writing, for until the appearance of his book there were many
people who could only see in Bach a master full of knowledge, but
cold and academic.
charming our ears in a most delicious way and then gives our body and soul
an indescribable feeling of well-being. Bach lifts the soul away from the body.
Without trying to maintain a paradox, we can say that in spite of his austerity
and the greater age of his forms, Bach is more modern than Mozart." (William
Cart.)
all the more so because in their own time, neither one nor the other
Oratorio is not in the same style as those of Handel, with dramatic action and
of a showman.
Bach never thought of an effect: his music came out of the most
intimate part of his mind and never aimed at anything but the purest.
greets the child Jesus is the one that will be addressed to Christ when per-
secuted and beaten in front of Pontius Pilate. So we find Jesus 1 death glorified
in His birth. Isnt there an idea of the same kind in your Oratorio del
Pessebre?
in fact, he was inspired by the same idea. Naturally the music adapts
itself to this poetical theme. When they are dancing a Sardana in front
that the child will be crucified. Thus the Sardana already announces
wondered how a composer such as Bach could apply the same music to such
different words; to which a music critic (J. Weber , Les Illusions Musicales)
answers that religious music is not essentially different from any other.
"It is only separated through nuances, to a greater or lesser extent, not through
any principles."
That is true. One could think first about the Gregorian chant, which
has its roots in folk-song. How many tunes coming from the people,
which have been passed from one generation to another, have gone
In the St. John Passion do you find anything "sombre and agitated"?
Yes, certainly. And I can hardly avoid telling you that it always
you before.
for the first time in Paris, the impact it made on me was so violent that
I felt ill for about two months. I felt stifled and as if I could not cry
William Cart says: " Christian art has not produced anything which can be
compared to the emotion caused by this voice standing above the harmonic
There are the two choirs in the introduction, and suddenly a third one
this third choir is great, but, to get the real effect, the third choir
"His dramatic instinct" writes Dr. Schweitzer, "is not less developed.
The plan of the St. Matthew Passion, so admirably conceived for a dramatic
work, is of his own invention. In each text he looks for contrasts, oppositions
and gradations."
parallel, in the sense that both these great geniuses have explored
Some critic has written, apropos of the performance of the St. Matthew
must combine taste with technical perfection, the solemn style of the church
with the pathos of the situations, without ever striving for an effect."
Especially without striving for effect, otherwise the spirit of
Bach would be spoilt. For a long time one of my dearest wishes has
alter so that I may realise eventually one of my last and most intense
wishes.
Dr. Schweitzer writes on the subject of the Mass in B Minor: "If the
nevertheless lacks that unity which makes the beauty of the St. Matthew
cannot have a free rein in the Mass. We can say that there are in this work
est and the Crucifixus, but on the whole the work has a rather objective
character. The 'Protestant' sections do not compare for greatness with the
anything missing in it. The Master had no wish to write it in any other
way, and felt the desire to compose it as it is. And what has been the
result? That is what we must ask ourselves when confronted by this
to have given it confessional unity, so that the work would have been
has written it on a dual basis and I think we must accept it as such. And
William Cart thinks that the Mass in B Minor reminds one of a Gothic
cathedral in which the faithful of both confessions can hold out their hands
to each other.
certain works of his one can think of a cathedral of the Middle Ages.
"If wc compare the Bach Mass with the Missa Solemnis of Beethoven
we can realise the abyss there is between the two works. Bach rests entirely
on a biblical foundation. His style was born in the church, his faith is one of
of the XVIIIth century and the humanism of the XlXth have replaced the
old faith. But the modern master has his moment in the Benedictus: there
he can breathe out all his loving soul. Never has the religion of fraternal love,
of universal charity been sung with more fervour; all the tenderness he showed
to men, and which men reflected, he poured out in this unforgettable violin
the remarks such as "Bach the 'old master', Beethoven the 'modern
master' ", might lead to confusion. The violin solo of the Benedictus is
came before the "Tragics" , and he sums up in one paragraph the course of
this evolution through Haydn and Mozart: "But it is in Haydn that we first
find how the great advantage of the Bach period (which continued through
and coherency of a work was, so to speak, in its nature. From then on this
unity will have to be achieved: modern music begins. With Haydn, and
even more with Beethoven afterwards, we pass from the 'being of Bach
Bach only means the end of a piece of music. With Haydn and Beethoven
this chord marks the end of a composition, the conclusion of a composer s
endeavour. It is the beginning of a new era, which imposes on the composer the
necessity to connect musical logic with ordinary logic, and in this way to
bring about a synthesis which could hardly have occurred naturally — the
work" would happen of itself— I cannot see that. The composers had
intense or more dynamic than his work, since the whole music of the
future was influenced through it? It is true that Beethoven puts the
accent on the dramatic, and this side of his character is often evident
great musician like Furtwangler does not pretend to make this assertion,
and Beethoven exist all around us, and they will exist as long as human
towards the future like a shining star. Bach is one of the great
ones who for a long time was put away in a drawer as being too "old-
any understanding. Even in our day there are lots of performers who
believe that Bach is a long way away and make the mistake of looking
1 o P . at.
violin works for the keyboard. It may be that Bach considered the violin
style as universal." Schweitzer adds: "When Bach writes for the violin,
or rather, for an ideal instrument which would have the power of the organ
Well, if you like, but a violin lacks a low register. In Bach's themes
one can get in so many themes with this instrument, but I would not
'Cello Solo? Those Suites which had waited for you to reveal all their
treasures!
The Six Suites for 'Cello give an idea of Bach's vision of the
Yes. This Suite shows the desire and the possibility of new depar-
The last Suite is written for the Viola Pomposa — an instrument Bach
had invented.
Bach?
No, but with a 'cello built so that it could be played as a Viola
Pomposa. As far as its sonority was concerned, it did not satisfy me.
organ, the research into the intonation of the keyboard, the use of
advance found in the violin and the 'cello Suites and so on.
different themes, but in the different inflections taken by the same theme
the same theme to its end. How wonderful it is to be able to give with
we find ourselves confronted with a theme which goes from one end
wanted to, could have introduced some secondary themes; but what
inflections in his theme but does not get away from it.
Critics and musicians agree in saying that Bach has not changed, and
that there is an increasing accentuation of his personality, but that his younger
to.
Bach is the composer who has made more transcriptions of his own works
Yes, and how much art and tact he has brought to these arrange-
besides the "colour" of the instruments for which the works were
doit?
I was talking the other day with a pianist friend of mine about the
transcription of the Kinderscenen of Schumann for 'cello and piano.
He thought that, as these pieces had been written for the piano, it was
of them for the piano and I know also how wonderful they can sound
just on a keyboard. But since the piano does not possess the inflections
which possesses these qualities, and especially these Scenes, which are
to the fact that Ravel has arranged the Pictures from an Exhibition by
not!
the surroundings this composer lived in. In order to know these things (in
regard to Bach) it becomes necessary to obliterate from our minds all the
developments which took place after Bach, all the things which in his day
had not been discovered, written or achieved. To understand Bach in his day,
we shall have, therefore, to forget all the music of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,
all romanticism and also the philosophy and free thinking, the political and
have to imagine all the things which, as far as we are concerned, have dis-
appeared in the past, but were active and visible in his day: the religious
habits of his century, his symbolism, his connection with the Church. Only
thus, shall we understand the Master, not just through ourselves but
objectively."
How can one say that, if you think of the musical side of the
question? How can one do away with one's own feeling of the music
general history of the period in which the composer lived and worked:
him more able to grasp all the esthetic nuances of the composition he is
playing; but the real artist must, before anything else, rely on his own
musical sense in order to know exactly what the work is and how he is
by the old methods, and decide what form it was presented in, his
mind will become prey to doubts which are bound to spoil this
before anything else. As for the performer who plays Bach nowadays,
time and therefore when performing it one does not want to follow
obstacles and limitations which existed two centuries ago in the field
of technique.
That young man of thirteen who, one day, discovered the Six Suites
for the 'Cello in a music shop in Barcelona, could not have bothered his head
and he applied himself to the study of the Suites for years with all
"The mechanism of harpsichords in those days did not allow the performer
we realise that his rapid allegro [the maximum of speed one could expect on
those instruments) does not go much beyond our allegro moderato. This
does not prevent us from making use of the better mechanism of a modern
piano to play Bach's works quicker than he played them himself Some
Partitas. But on the whole, one should not go beyond an energetic allegro.
Similarly, the slow movements of Bach have not got the slowness of our
modern performance. His adagio, grave, lento are equal to our extreme
moderato. The short sound of his harpsichord did not allow him to play his
prolonged. Quite naturally we shall play certain pieces in a tempo a bit slower
than the authentic tempo, although we should not go as slowly as our modern
adagio."
plays in.
Forkel relates that Bach played his most austere fugues with enormous
freedom.
"For a long time people thought Bach's works should be played without
because he relies on the feeling and the intelligence of his performers. This
ought to be said: 'Bach knows all the modern effects* " (William Cart.)
Dr. Schweitzer talks about a "refined rubato". "If the Bach tempi do
not vary from a normal tempo as much as those in modern music, this normal
tempo should be graduated in a most subtle way. A sort of rigid and uniform
Very good.
"Actually one does not find in Bach the opposition of themes of a different
kind, as one does for instance in the Beethoven Sonatas. Bach generally
adopts a rhythm in the first bars which will continue throughout the piece."
Exactly.
does not ask us to abolish the beat but he intends a subtle rubato."
This could constitute a rule for all music. Bach does not require
any special rules; it is the general rules of music one should observe
when performing his works. Even so, the word "rule" is slightly out
the listener. Whence this very simple general rule, too often neglected by
performers: one should hold back the tempo when the design becomes more
Dr. Schweitzer, having told us why Bach so seldom marks the tempo,
tells us that sometimes the actual material of the music calls for a special
piece. For instance, in the first section of the Gamba Sonata in G Minor,
there is a moment when I feel the need of a slower *empo than the
initial one.
Dr. Schweitzer declares: "Let us set down three axioms which represent
as many modern principles that one should abandon when dealing with
Bach's music.
"(i) Bach's works begin and end with their greatest sonority. All effects
of pianissimo at the start and at the end of the work are alien to Bach's
style."
any hesitation; if, at the end, I feel a forte, I do it. On the whole the
sonority at the beginning and at the end is the one indicated above,
"(2) The cadence in Bach does not represent a diminuendo, but always
remains within the sonority of the phrase it terminates, piano if this phrase is
piano, forte if the phrase is forte. One must specially avoid spoiling the
in Bach's music. On this subject, one should study the expression marks in
forte to piano.
"(3) It is a mistake in the fugues to play the theme piano and gradually
to reach the forte through the successive entries of the theme. It is not necessary
to amplify in this way the natural gradation which comes from the succession
of entries.
"The logic of a classical fugue does not bear any alteration of sonorities
in the first entries of the theme any more than logic in architecture allows the
From the first bar the Bach themes come forward with some grandeur, even
fugue. As for the grandeur with which the subjects come forward,
Bach. When he wrote the sonatas for violin and cembalo, the sounds
played with a piano, the sounds do not blend but sound apart from
one another. The listener who has a sensitive ear and has imagined
and a piano is evident. However, I believe that the ear can adapt itself
to the sound of the piano. In any case, as the piano has a power of
126 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
expression the harpsichord has not, I would always choose it for the
I prefer the harpsichord, because its timbre mixes better with the
orchestra. In any case, a good pianist can get such an effect if he plays
discreetly.
Dr. Schweitzer maintains that the editions of Bach covered with ex-
pression marks (to save the performer from thinking for himself) do not
help the cause of the Master— just the opposite. It is much better to publish
along the wrong path. That is why I have always refused to edit Bach's
works myself: and I have declined all offers. I think they should be
that is still intact in spite of its ancient mechanism. Only then can one dis-
cover how the modern organ is unable to show the value of the master's
as they were played two hundred years ago, and to find instruments
by which one can revive the past. But that ought not to make us
forget that Bach was always looking for improvements in the instru-
the length of the sound. In rapid and loud passages an organ can be
impressive, but its tone cannot vibrate with the rhythm of the organ-
real musician.
produce the works of the Master with their real colour. Dr. Schweitzer also
wishes to return to the instruments of the period. "In order to bring out all the
value of Bach* s works, one is obliged to return to the old instruments. Attempts
of this kind have been made in many places. The result has been above all
expectations. 11
his time. What performances he would have given with the numerous
nowadays ! In his day all wind instruments were out of tune, now we
have them in tune. And can you imagine what the effect of wind
whose ears must have become falsified through hearing the wrong
should have to make the flutes and the oboes play out of tune and ask
Brandenburg Concerto.
the tempo I was giving, which was, in my opinion, the right one to
keep the music alive. He had to hold the tempo back, he played wrong
in this way. What was I to do? I did not want to change my tempo, so
the part of the same concerto, lost for ever the proper lip .contact
Dr. Schweitzer, a few pages further on, voices an opinion which I find
almost similar to the one you have just expressed. ". . . anything which will
enhance the natural beauty of the work, or the plastic value of the performance,
anything which will add vigour or delicacy to it, is not only allowed but
actually demanded by the score. If Bach had had our resources at his disposal
he would have used them in this way . . . We can only 'modernise' Bach.
If we perform his works as they were in his day they would not make the
Very good.
". . . interpret them in such a way that, while keeping the style of ancient
music, one brings out the ideas and effects contained in the scores. To reconcile
old style and modern effects, such is the problem of performance."
The old style for Bach, I just cannot accept it, it just is great music.
If Bach had not lived then, and were to appear now, in the middle of
Bach as he was in his day. His works would be like a sort of fiat
We have not yet reached the full knowledge of his output. The
undertook to repair the neglect into which Bach had fallen. However,
which they deserve all our gratitude, did show in many respects that
they had not understood the greatness of the master. One example:
Partitas for violin alone! We, ourselves, can see from day to day the
makes us feel and what inspiration we derive from it. I repeat: there
VII
temporary, Handel? How can one explain the fact that Messiah was written
in three weeks, Israel in Egypt in fifteen days and most of his concerti
criticised for excessive facility. ''They don't know that the works I
may write today, I may have worked at for some twenty years."
How long does the conception of a work go on? The great musician
does not compose only when he puts pen to paper; a constant gestation
When you hear works like the Messiah of Handel, The Creation of
emotion.
that they will not weaken its personality. In the case of Bach we can
admire his humility, that humility which led him to copy other works
descended from Bach to the homophonic and dramatic one stemming from
Handel.
I don't see that very clearly. The dramatic sense appears with
Handel in his ability to find one theatrical effect, which later will be
the same with Rossini or Verdi. As for the deep dramatic sense, it is a
1 All the quotations from Romain Rolland are from his book, Handel (Editions
130
MUSIC OF YESTERDAY AND TODAY 131
says that: "because he lacked in invention he did not make enough of his
Purcell has nothing to do with Mozart. Elegant, yes, and deep and
great! Some of his works have been attributed to Bach! When I was
young one could have called Purcell "the unknown". It is very different
today! For the artist of genius, the hour of recognition always arrives.
the "picturesque", "the colour" and "imitative effect". "He was a painter."
And Romain Rolland says of Handel that he was not "shut up" in himself.
I quite agree.
It has been said that if Handel in his Oratorios used the stories of the
Handel was a pre-Romantic, rousing tempests from choir and orchestra like a
Wagner or a Berlioz." 'You refuse to let rules constrict your personality
could have been said to him by a contemporary. "He 'is like a Beethoven in
in a popular way feelings that are common to us all. Nowadays this type of
art and person has disappeared. We find the pure artist now stays at home,
and those who speak to the people are most often entertainers." (Romain
Rolland.)
why he was Handel! Now it is different, and the reason is that, un-
vanished.
could show off their voices. It is an Italian tradition. I don't think that,
balance of the orchestra in order to make it richer and more modern." (Romain
Rolland.)
I have already told you what I think about this subject when
we talked about Bach. Handel, like other masters of his time, had to
play their compositions in this or that way and no other. One can
But with an orchestral work why not employ the means at our dis-
posal? At the Crystal Palace in London they gave the Messiah with a
disapproved of.
Handel the nuances are very varied from pianissimo to fortissimo. If one
nuances were not written in those days, but, of course, they were intended."
(Romain Rolland.)
a critic says: "An abyss separated the master of fugue and the devotees of the
but the emotion looked for was the sweetness of the Italians. Beethoven
accepts Haydn s influence in the Sonatas and the Symphonies but turns his
say that he is more surprising than Beethoven. With the latter one
can sometimes guess what is coming. But not with Haydn. He eludes
Adolphe Boschot thinks that Mozart's music speaks most directly to the
Boschot adds: "For instance, we find Haydn very near him. He might
be his brother, but a less poetical brother. Alas, with Haydn charm is only
superseded by the galant style and by developments which are too formal and
too precise, that is to say unexpressive. Very often Haydn gives us the frame-
Haydn. But what about The Creation of Haydn? Can one find any-
also find in Mozart — does not prevent him from being poetical and
music is only beginning now. With him (the "father" of the sym-
phony) the same thing will happen as has happened with Mozart in
the last fifty years or so. One of the revelations which will emerge
from the present chaos will be the rediscovery of Haydn, and the
his day"
the sake of innovation ! How many works of art has Haydn given us
by using the vocabulary and the syntax of his time? That is what
matters. Bach, Handel and Mozart copied out, and even sometimes
one. They have not tried to be original for the sake of being original.
It has been said that, between a phrase of Haydn s and one of Mozart's,
composition.
one can confuse them, but, in fact, the two Masters are very different.
Haydn." 1
insist: the real hour of Haydn has not yet arrived. We must remember
that of his enormous production, only thirty per cent had been pub-
lished some thirty years ago and, even then, only about a fifth of it
was played.
Some people say that both Mozart and Haydn share the "rare privilege'
The lowbrow will also like Bach, Schubert and so many others,
I told you about what the workmen and clerks who formed the
known and, as you said, numerous music-lovers can hardly get over their
In music we have not finished * 'discovering' ' the great masters of the
past!
Can you think of any decisive factors which contributed to this "revival"
tradition, and we might think that this "return' ' is due to the Austrian
capital. But I do not think that is the case. (I have the impression that
this movement took place in many countries, not to say in all coun-
tries.) It seems to me that if this "revival" had had its origin only in
Vienna, it would have been more difficult for it to spread all over the
the beginning of our century. In that period we first had the so-called
natural reaction towards great music has led them to appreciate the
"light" of Mozart.
Adolphe Boschot reckons that the " Wagnerian-fever \ much more than
some great names were provisionally put on one side, but that is not
MUSIC OF YESTERDAY AND TODAY 135
the case with Mozart, since he was not very well known or appreciated
You have lived through the years when Mozart was neglected?
charming, delicious, yes — but a trinket all the same. Yet there were
some real artists, like Saint-Saens, I remember quite well, who were
Every genius escapes all definition. How can one define sublimity —
There are many mansions in the house of the master who also knows
Beethoven said about Don Giovanni that a sacred art should not lower
displeased this noble moralist, but, I should say that in Don Giovanni
In his letters and notes one can detect an intellectual strength. In Mozart's
great friend, Granados, whose language was also free and without
malice. The puerile expressions and remarks — even when they are
When Mozart took his pen in his hand, the work was already con-
ceived in his mind. There are some great artists who create even when
instruments did not come so much into consideration with the composers,
Mozart showed himself very sensitive to the material of the orchestra at his
(E. Vuillermoz.)
But is it not the privilege of Mozart, amongst all the lyrical composers,
to have known how to make the most diverse personalities talk musically
I agree, and I think his lyrical genius deserves all possible praise.
fectly "expression and beauty ", says Boschot. "His six string quartets,
what else?
keys in his compositions, such evidence and tranquil certitude, this is precisely
what brings surprises and the power of all expressive effects. One accidental,
one modulation, becomes exciting, just because of this limpidity and this
tonal fixity."
1 All the quotations from Adolphe Boschot arc extracts from his book Mozart.
good, but the accusation of being too much in the same key falls to
past master. His music is so varied and so far from a shadow of mono-
most perfect and natural way. When the "tonal limpidity" appears
Beethoven said: "The best work of Mozart remains The Magic Flute.
the great works of Italian origin derives the rule that expression is to be found
Mozart?
sources? In other words, were the Italians the first to fix the rules of
melody?
Edwin Fischer 1 writes: "When the devil comes out in Beethoven, when
we find a whole scene characterised by a few notes, we should not say: This
that the great dramatic moments are first to be found in the most striking
manner."
Wouldn't you transcribe some Mozart work for the ' cello and record it so
that Mozart, who wrote for so many instruments, must have written
a 'cello concerto. But nowhere is there any mention of it. Since
1 All quotations from Edwin Fischer arc extracted from his book, Considera-
did not write a concerto for the 'cello. Sometimes I put the question
to myself: did Mozart think that in his day 'cello technique was
Boccherini (who was before Mozart) must have been a great 'cellist,
it proves that the 'cello was not played well enough in his day for
Double Concerto, the same thing must have happened — and yet when
he heard the Dvorak concerto he said that if he had known one could
for it. All this tends to show that the development of the 'cello as a
highest spheres of spiritual maturity to which any human being could attain.
preserved."
the way we feel about his music, and we must do it in all earnestness
Mozart, Schubert, Wagner, Debussy and many other composers who have
endowed music with discoveries more fertile and more original or positive
than Beethoven has; however, this unanimity has sprung to life quite effort-
lessly round his name. For some years now, important musicians have shown
signs of surprise at this anomaly, and hope that posterity will value with
more precision and justice the contribution of a great musician whose character
in fact, Beethoven owes his dictatorship more to poets and novelists than to
masters. This sort of thing has always happened. But time has always
close to him? And of the devotion of Schumann and Liszt? And the
does not lie in the amount of discoveries he made in music but in the
that has been said — truly or falsely — about him will not diminish
the radiance of the light such a mind has brought us, and it will
has received.
". . . The abyss that separates the commonplace passages which abound
in the nine symphonies from the sublime thoughts that we find everywhere
perience. But in all genius, the germ is the thing to observe: and with
Beethoven, perhaps more than with other great composers, this germ
appears already in the first Opus. That is the most important fact to
It has been said that in the first Trios and Sonatas, the real Beethoven
is already there.
Yes, the early Opuses already carry the germ of the Ninth Symphony
Opus I is the delicious Trio in E|? major which you played with
Istomin and Fuchs this year (1953) in the Abbey of St. Michel de Cuxa?
can imagine the attempts and the gropings which must have preceded
manners*?
Would you say that the compositions of the third period are deeper and
mysterious and sublime sphere. In any case, I would not dare to say
that, purely as "works of art", the later works are superior to the early
ones, not even to the earliest ones. One cannot fail to see that the
art.
In one of the early string quartets of Beethoven we find the title Malin-
conia. Do you think that Beethoven might have been the first to describe
melancholy in order to keep the latter for the romantics, who made it their
say.
the two are separated. Especially with music, where one cannot put
And what about the romantic attitude to nature, not as scenery outside
"Nobody has loved nature as I have" , may have been the beginner of this
movement.
Who can say precisely how certain Italian composers of the XVIIth
certain aspects, but to go further and assert that these aspects have their
musical origin in him is a big step which I am not ready to take.
Do you think that the quality of pathos in Beethoven comes from the
"concentrated sour*.
Arthur Honegger says: "What always puzzles the masses is that the
great composer was deaf. One cannot deny that a great deal of the admiration
devoted to Beethoven is due to his infirmity. To tell the truth, once we forget
the tragic side of this situation, the fact remains that, as a creator, he could
never hear the performance of his work, which must have raised many
technical difficulties for him. However, I am tempted to say that this affliction
forced him to 'wall' himself in, and helped him to concentrate with all his
days." 1
I would say that the great strength of his mind already protected him
from the usual banalities of life, which surrounded him just as they
say that I have seen Beethoven and have spoken to him ... in a dream
of course!
It all depends how they set about it. For instance, I very much
It has been said that in Fidelio the composer appears more like a poet
Yes, everyone seems to think that Beethoven did not feel at ease
with the stage. It may be true. Everyone to his own opinion. But can
listener?
Wagner recounts in Mein Leben that after the final rehearsal of the
of all gruesome predictions and dangers we must not lose our faith.
I have always believed the day would come when the Ode to Joy
would be sung by all the peoples of the earth. I inscribed this thought
Vincent d'Indy has said that Beethoven s Sonatas are dominated by the
search for an idea. On the other hand, Furtwangler, having asserted that
musician, goes on to say: "It appears that Beethoven, more than any other
musician, tends to answer the question put by his ideas in the most purely
musical form possible. ... He does not go half-way to meet the poet. And
that is why he is not lyrical like Schubert, or a dramatic musician like Wagner.
musician." 1
than Schubert is. That Beethoven has answered his ideas by elaborating
purely musical forms seems to be quite evident. But I must say that I
don't see very clearly what Furtwangler means with all this — perhaps
type, the discovery of a great musician if ever there was one, this theme could
text. Just the opposite: it looks as if it were the poem which expounds the
theme."
of this symphony, but I cannot agree with anyone who says that
it was not inspired by the Ode to Joy. When I hear it, I get an impres-
humanitarianism of Schiller.
1 All the quotations from Furtwangler are extracted from his book, Entretiens
sur la Musique.
and of details, are numerous. But that is not what his genius is made of
and those who see traces of hard work almost everywhere are not far from the
truth. But his intuition goes much deeper, and that, in his best works, allows
inventing great themes, but was lacking in the one Furtwangler talks
others. As for the themes, it is true that we can find in his note-books
encountered before these themes finally took shape. If we take the slow
works did not reach perfection until they had undergone many
changing one note only, as we see in the initial theme of the Ninth
"In Bach we find that the whole piece with all its developments exists
implicitly in the theme. In fact, Bach never wanders away from the material
of his principal theme, even in a fugue where there are counter subjects, the
for development in any theme is just as urgent, the way to it is not rigorously
planned, as it is with Bach. The reason is that, with Beethoven, the develop-
ment does not rest exclusively on the first theme. He has many, and through
lines." (Furtwangler.)
we said before, Bach goes right down to the bottom of the initial
Hans von Bulow has said "The Well-Tempered Clavier is the Old
Testament, Beethoven s Sonatas the hew" '. Can we still say that?
Old and the New Testaments. As I have told you before, I think
not only their personality in their works, but even the vicissitudes of their
might suggest that." Idont suppose you will agree with this?
It is not the whole question. What I don't see is how there could
tudes of his existence". It is inevitable that one should affect the other
find so many examples like this and in any case, what do we know of
the feelings of the ideas and dreams which have inspired the com-
Some say that his life did not tally with his genius, others, that it was a
"He writes a short work with perfection; the lieder, the waltz, the
"In such cases Schubert does not follow the classical system of developing
his themes. Romanticism comes into it in the sense that he will paint the
same theme in different colours and change its harmony and its key. No other
1 La Musique des origines d nos jours. (Librairie Larousse, Paris.)
composer of the Romantic school has been so prolific in the domain of harmonic
made by Joachim — it just shows you how wrong great men can be!
Bach's works.
As for the string quintet with two violoncelli you have played . . .
So many times and always with the greatest admiration and the
deepest emotion!
If one had to enumerate all the things one can find in his music !
stage.
"In the piano works" says Andre Coeuroy ', li Schubert follows the sonata
form which he does not try to change at all. But in the short pieces, with
Chopin."
"He does not try anything new in the construction of a work, but he uses
1 Op. cit.
form of the Sonata and the Symphony suitable to his own creation?
He has given us in his mind certain things that are completely his
— entirely his own — and it can say things and move us as nothing else
can.
You once performed the Mass in B|? with your orchestra and the Orfeo
Like so many others of Schubert! Dont you think that posterity has been
affairs seems to be disappearing. But in any case, as time goes on, the
artisan, exquisite and unique, but more at home in intimate music than in big
"As soon as the piano intervenes in his symphonic music, the interest
Coueroy.)
I don't agree with this remark; with the piano or without, it is the
and which gave rise, a few years ago, to some stormy debates. . . .
It must be because they fail to see the interest and the value of this
work. It is one of the finest works one can hear — from beginning to
"Schumann's themes are generally brief, rarely more than four bars, very
That is true !
Many have spoken of his difficulty, even the impossibility for him in develop-
ing his themes. "The conciseness of his themes," says Coeuroy, "has brought
that in any of his compositions the inspiration ever weakens from be-
inspire, and I mean it in its highest sense. The structural elements of his
works are those best fitted to his needs of expression, and it would be
are short it must be simply because this conciseness suited his inspiration
and not because Schumann could not or did not know how to develop
them.
Rene Dumesnil wrote: "Schumann s genius is one of the most varied that
I absolutely agree!
"One day when Schumann tried to define his personality, he created for
himself a Symbolic second self, which seemed for him the only solution of a
his artistic and philosophical tendencies. This inner instability, alas, ended
sense of poetry, to which Schumann responded eagerly, all the more, because
in his youth, he was surrounded by poetry, hence his sure and subtle know-
Coeuroy.)
the character of the text, but also took care of each word, which,
him following the magic of the words very closely. In any case it
Schubert.
cation in the works of the great composers, any omission or addition, should
as the printed notes and signs of music. Writing as we know it being a very
thing? Does Schumann {or any other composer) give all indications that are
needed?
is Schumann's weak point, and there are conductors who take the
this opinion, I have always respected the text of the original version
think that their devotion to the music they perform imposes such
minor alterations.
that his music has been so neglected for some time now?
Yes, I have heard this comparison! But everyone can make com-
J have read that the admiration of Mendelssohn for Schumann and Liszt
of those concerning Liszt. I wonder if they were not all more or less
1 As Casals asked in the chapter on Bach: "Why did Schumann write piano
accompaniments to the Six Suites for Solo Violin? These are completely foreign
Schumann and Brahms, and on the other hand, Wagner and Liszt.
frenzy' of Romanticism?
elsewhere?
Indeed it did. There was a time when every musician had to submit
At that time all musicians — and I was one of them — had to understand
neglected in recent years. But I feel sure he will come to his own
again.
"Liszt was the first to insist on the complete independence of the fingers.
When he played he did not use the wrist and the hand only, but also employed
the articulations of the elbow and the shoulder, including the arms, which were
thus set free; he crossed them over, leaping from bass to treble at a speed like
that of a conjuring trick. Movements of the torso which, hitherto, had been
kept rigid, were part of a technical scheme to distribute the flow of movement of
the arms and fingers, even to the back of the pianist: his whole body expressed
All great artists are innovators. Liszt's conception of the piano was
powerful orchestra, and that was the cause of different movements and
positions.
I have read that Liszt heard Paganini in Paris, and was so tremendously
impressed that he spent a long time practising with the idea of making the
Yes, but before he went to Paris Liszt already had such personal
ideas about the piano; his conception of the instrument had not come
made a great impression on him, as he did on all those who heard him,
Larousse, Paris.)
and that happened because this great virtuoso used the resources of the
Liszt must be the composer who has written the greatest number of
transcriptions: apparently more than Jive hundred. Some people say they
"Of all his works, the twenty Hungarian Rhapsodies are the most vital
Do you remember when you were in Hungary and asked Bartok and
Koddly whether they thought that the Liszt of the Rhapsodies had been their
feel that their music is impregnated by the savour of their soil, I don't
find the same influence in Liszt; whether this happens on account of his
in his other works. On the other hand we find Chopin is Polish to the
one can say that Liszt started the idea ot^ a programme in music; he
Yes, certainly. One is tempted now and then to use the adjective
artist who has broken right away from accepted procedure. This gives
()// the question of Liszt and Wagner: "In Liszt we find that when he
uses characteristic themes they play the same part as the leitmotiv of Wagner.
But who had the priority? We have not got sufficient data on this subject
yet, but it seems obvious that the accidentals and unharmonics of Tristan
the man who wrote Tristan acknowledges his debt of gratitude to his
when it started, had a flavour of Chopin {although Liszt went much further
Berlin, people were violently against these harmonies, which they described
"It was the piano which helped Liszt to develop his harmonic richness,
which in its chromatic flights sometimes produces the most daring effects. Chopin
and Schumann also owe the profusion of their harmonies to the piano."
(Emilc Haraszti.)
Daring effects? Yes, but not in any way strange: even easy to under-
in Schubert. I don't think that it was the piano that was responsible for
against the "music oj the future" which was aimed at Wagner as much as at
Liszt.
Brahms and forget the rivalries and the polemics of that time.
You always speak with great admiration of Liszt's generosity and of the
of his fabulous personality which will place Liszt very high in the
who was an enthusiast of Wagner, did not recognise the high value of
Brahms' music.)
As he got older he still had a great desire to help young composers. It was
Weimar.
I remember your telling me one day that you had been able to trace all the
contemporaries of Liszt you have known, the extraordinary and lively per-
Yes, indeed. I could verify this with all the former pupils of Liszt
who have been my friend, — all great pianists. Busoni, Siloti, d'Albert,
Sauer, etc. For example, Siloti, who was a perfectly normal person,
today. During the night Liszt told me this and that," and his wife
said? It would have been cruel to start arguing with him on the
subject.
his method on his pupils, neither does he make detailed observations regarding
the position of the hands or the touch; he allows the greatest liberty as to the
which Liszt taught. I could see that it was a subject he did not want to
discuss.
What about the other pupils of Liszt whom you have known, Busoni,
impression that it was the Master himself who was playing. (As a
matter of fact he had the same figure, the same face, the same hands
and the same wart on the cheek — a perfect double in fact.) Busoni's
way of playing was different. Of course with pupils of this kind, one
can understand why it was not necessary for the master of the piano to
young Chinese
pupil
s*
very much like to know of what exactly his lessons consisted. It was
Siloti told me that at a gathering with Kings and Princes, it was Liszt
had advised his pupils to go and hear the celebrated pianist, and report
to him afterwards. Next day they all came to see Liszt and told him
with enthusiasm how they had enjoyed the concert. At that time Liszt
Enesco said that "people have not yet forgiven Liszt for being a great
pianist and a great composer at the same time' 1 . 1 I wonder what causes this
others, have been victims of this attitude.) It seems to me that the oppo-
site would be more logical, since the high value of a performer should
Liszt wrote about Chopin: "It is no use writing tempo rubato, it does
not teach anything to those who know nothing." Later on, Chopin ceased
to add this indication to his music, as he realised that, given enough intelli-
gence, the player would see the need for "irregularity" himself 2.
mistaken course, quite contrary to the music itself? The written note
1 All quotations from Georges Enesco are from his Entretiens radiophoniques
which, for many people, would have put the technical performance on a plane
of secondary importance, the imagination rather than the fingers at the service
say that anyone playing his works only had to feel and decide the
tempo for himself. This way of writing put me in an awkward position
and the American musicians kept on asking me exactly how this and
There is a Sonata and a Polonaise. They are quite well written for the
And what of the famous Nocturne you played when you were young?
Everywhere I was asked to play it, and as soon as I had played the last
Chopin Nocturne. . . .
distant youth.
Heinrich Heine said about Chopin: "Poland gave him his chivalrous
country of Mozart, Raphael and Goethe. His real home is in the birthplace
of poetry.
I don't agree. I find his music essentially Polish; if you select any of
his subjects and look for the origin of his inspiration, you'll find it can
only come from his native land. I just cannot see what there is in
When you were studying in Barcelona, did you hear any opera of
Wagner?
I cannot remember exactly, but I don't think I did until later on.
There were some musicians and music-lovers at that time who said that
Wagner "killed" melody and also that he gave the wind instruments an
great and that he used very natural means of expression which were
easy to understand.
Were you impressed by all his symbolism, his philosophy, and other
No. I was not interested in those: it was the music which impressed
me straight away.
I thought the actors were not very good and not up to their task.
The name of Hans Richter is inseparable from the Wagner story. When
you used to talk to him in Manchester, did you find that he had remained
faithful to the memory of his Master, in spite of all he had to go through with
him?
Yes, years did not seem to have obliterated any of it.
Your friend, Ysaye, having heard Tristan for the first time, speaks of an
"annihilation in rapture". When he got home, having taken his shoes off he
threw them on the fire, at the thought that in this life one had to give up
I did not throw my shoes in the fire after I heard Tristan, but I
dear friend Ysaye. There must have been very few musicians of my
Lamoureux's admiration for Wagner made him put aside all other
work of a musical genius. When in 1899 Tristan was given in Paris for
the first time there was no fear of any scandal, for Wagner's cause had
were fired.
Tell me: I imagine you must have had a great admiration for Hans von
Biilow.
as you know, went with her mother when she left her first husband.)
have nothing to give you: I had a leaf from the sketch of the Twilight
those days was already looked upon as a semi-God and the Countess
of your father I wanted to have." She was most surprised and said, "No
Some critic has written that some eighty years after Wagner's death "the
only works he is remembered by are a few grand operas, which were those he
music, and that of Wagner is always the music of a great master. (The
the wireless. How beautiful it is, and how pale some of our contempor-
ary pieces sound, as compared to it.) The "drama" in the libretto of an
since Wagner. (It would have been a very different thing if, for
have been very interested in Richard Strauss' operas. I think they are
Darius Milhaud thinks that the works of Wagner were the prelude to
we ought to talk of Brahms and even of Mozart who, after all, was the
No.
Brahms went there to conduct some of his own works, and he was
pride for the Danes. Do you know what Brahms remarked? "Why
are these sculptures here? They ought to be in Berlin." This caused such
work of art; the danger is when this feeling is used to exalt the greed
for domination.
Nietzsche also, after his great quarrel with Wagner, said he was very
much of a comedian.
Yes, but before the rupture, Nietzsche had been under the spell of
his friend and he had spoken in the highest terms of the reforms in
Prelude of Tristan.
out of tune
The way Ludwig described this visit seems to show that you shared his
No. I think one should show some tolerance; the vanity and the
terrible bad temper of Wagner must have caused some very disagree-
able scenes, but, in order to judge him, one should first remember the
atmosphere in which artists of that period lived. In any case, the works
It has been said that great musicians like Bruckner and Mahler have been
It is true.
made, their works are getting much more known outside Germany.
it was even touching to see his modesty. Do you know that he used
the theatre? From what one of his pupils told me, Bruckner's nature
was so angelic that he went into a trance while he played the organ.
You once told me thai your first contact with Brahms 1 music had been an
overwhelming experience.
Yes, it is very true. I was a child then and no one had told me
anything about him. I did not have to think twice before I realised I
Dumesnil.) 1
which best suited his musical conceptions. Why not accept a composer's
artistic achievements?
About Brahms' music, Darius Milhaud said, not very long ago, "Bogus
great ones.
which is precisely the reason why he is accepted or rejected; his music calls
If one is sensitive and not perverse, one can only reject what is bad,
ugly or stupid. Are there any trustworthy or truthful people who could
Dumesnil has in mind in his article have not got the right to intervene
made clear once and for all. Mr. Dumesnil could do that very well.
He knows that the French public would like to hear Brahms, but that
a number of musicians and critics always run him down and try to
contained in the false accusation that this music is too Germanic. (The
the celebrated critic, is largely responsible for this state of affairs, which
his part, but I should say it is mostly dictated by bad faith, which is
Faure always asked me to sit on the jury for the yearly 'cello com-
petition when I was in Paris. One year the candidates had to play a
Brahms piece, and I have not forgotten the remarks Faure made to me
on the music !
Germany. Did you play Fauri in Germany during your tours in that
country?
language, which is not even the language of Beethoven or Mozart, hut that of
He "dived" into it willingly and that's all. The question is: Is the
beauty as Mozart and Haydn, at least let us write with as much purity in
composer.
Is it true that when Brahms wrote his Violin Concerto and his Double
Concerto he got his great friend Joachim to give him advice on the technical
side?
l6o CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
Yes. Brahms followed some of Joachim's advice, but not all. (I have
in the theme of the Finale of the Double Concerto, Brahms did not agree
(and quite rightly) with Joachim's indications, since they did not fit in
Yes. Joachim having parted from his wife, Brahms took her side,
with the result that their friendship was broken. One can guess the con-
occasion.
Ysaye, when talking of the Violin Concerto, said: ". . . the technical
when talking of the Beethoven Violin Concerto, Ysaye wrote: "Do not let
us forget that the work, which is the object of this study, is primarily lyrical
and the raison d'etre of the violin {its singing quality) is at the bottom of
Yes.
It is hard to believe. And also, does this singing quality of the violin
But what is progress in art? That is a question I'd like to put, and I
On one occasion Vincent d'Indy (who had previously sent one of his
compositions to Brahms) went to see hir : and was not received. Brahms
easily lost his temper and often gave slashing answers. Did I ever tell
No.
Brahms playing the piano part (which has very turbulent accents at the
ments recueillis par sonfils. Preface de Menuhin. (Les deux Sirenes, Paris.) P. 393.
number of small composers is the fact that he brought new ideas to the old
forms and has also disciplined and brought under control the forces of fantasy
being an innovator, but all the same he has been one by giving to his
music the natural imprint, the soft and deep light of his personality. I
should have liked to have known him. Some of his friends who are also
Now I would like to question you about some musicians you have known
personally. You must have seen Albeniz again after he had heard you at the
Albeniz. He sent him to study the piano at the Brussels Conservatoire when
he was fifteen.
Yes. Did I never tell you how Count de Morphy met Albeniz? The
Count was travelling by train with his wife and daughter when he
heard noises under the seat. Leaning down, he discovered a boy often
or twelve, hiding. It was Albeniz. "Who are you?" said the- Count. "I
Tell me about Albeniz as a pianist. I was told that he did not play in
I only heard him play his own works, but I always thought he was
a remarkable pianist. His hands, which were rather small, had an aston-
trousers and smoking his usual cigar. He was finishing some compo-
Granados?
Not the slightest. When very young Granados had been a pupil
that the counsels of both teachers had very little effect on my friend.
One can say about Granados, and also about this other Catalan com-
poser, Juli Garreta, that they were both completely self-taught. As for
little use to him as a composer. Pedrell was not the man to teach
162
improvisor and was much more sensitive to the colour and atmos-
Barcelona in which he quoted what he had once said to Albeniz: "Down with
rules! Burn all the harmony text-hooks, the counterpoint ones also, and those
on composition and instrumentation which have not been written for you and
Yes, Albeniz was like that, and one cannot expect to teach anything
live in Paris, he came under the influence of his friends of the Schola
I knew Pedrell very well. He and Count de Morphy were the first
scholar, Pedrell has written the most authoritative books on the popular
beneficial kind.
Moor. (That reminds me that one of my friends told me that the best
flamenco singers are the Catalans who sing in the cafes of Barcelona.)
Pedrell, Granados, Garreta and de Falla's mother were also Catalans.
was the first composer, and the most remarkable one, to write music
with a real Catalan flavour without making direct use of our traditional
folklore.
Wagner? But, except for a few traces of a general character, one cannot
and even less in those of Granados. I should like to know what has
Henri Collet thinks that the Spanish composers who came after Albeniz
Some people have said of Albeniz, that he could have been called the
"Spanish Liszt" ', for he was always ready to devote himself to somebody or
to some idea.
proverbial. The door of his house was open to friends and strangers
alike. I remember the last time I saw him at Cambo, in the French
Basque country, where I went when I heard he was very ill. He was
suffering acutely but never complained. He only talked about his wife
and his daughter. "They are both angels," he said to me. And he was
crying at the thought. Albeniz was an artist with a beautiful and noble
nature.
Yes, and so did I, I think I told you that Granados and I gave many
concerts together.
delicate, listless, ailing, not a great worker but a born pianist. He could
tackle any of the big works written for the piano, and would improvise
Granados?
First I must tell you that the works of the three of them show a
does Albeniz use folk tunes, and yet a number of his themes sound as if
they had been based on popular songs, which makes it perhaps a little
less original. One could say the same about Falla, whose originality
lies especially in the "dressing up" and his rich variety of harmonies.
most original and the most delicately poetical. On the other hand, Falla
is the most learned and the one who dominates most the technique of
composition. And after him we must put Albeniz, and give third place
quality.
No, he had a most seductive and childlike gaiety which overcame
the melancholy. Of course his music has (like all good music) an
maps and the majas of Madrid, and writes music sparkling with local
ality and genius of the composer are expressed. I would add that I
have never met a better interpreter of his vocal music than Conchita
You were in New York when they presented the Goyescas for the first
time, I believe?
Yes, I took part in their preparation and assisted at all the re-
like mad but were crying at the same time. This audience was mostly
composed of the Spanish and South American colony in New York,
and they were therefore able to understand the real character of the
work.
I have read that when Granados was invited by the President to play
and his wife boarded the Cross-Channel boat, the Sussex, which was
fingertips.
Robert Bernard writes: 1 "As opposed to the rich and romantic lyricism of
Paris.)
This is true.
The fact is that I don't know of any other case we could compare
to that of Garreta, the case of a self-taught man who dealt with the
credible ease this Catalan composer had at his command. (You will note
that neither Albeniz nor Granados ever tackled this class of com-
position.) After all, Granados had some teachers, even though he didn't
living all his life as a clockmaker in the small town of Sant Feliu de
Guixols. In his sardanas and symphonic works you can find some music
of the highest order. This "wild flower", which never received any
cultivation, was a true miracle. There was in Garreta the germ of a great
master, a germ which could not develop properly without the studies,
Beethoven or a Brahms.
Albeniz used to say, that some foreign composers, believing they had
written certain of their works with a real Spanish flavour, had, in fact, just
produced pieces like Polonaises. This opinion, all the same, could not apply
of the Slav.
difference between the two countries. We fmd Glinka, the real founder
Cesar Cui found that the Danses Espagnoles of Granados were similar
to Russian dances. Is there any parallel between the musical products of these
the artistic procedure of each country and each composer. But this
does not solve the whole question. The Russians, being intensely fond
Spanish music has also attracted the French, but in a very different
he liked to recall how Glinka had already realised all the ootentiahty
for centuries in other countries, seems to have borne fruit very rapidly
in Russia.
work you find such clarity and precision; his way of treating and
If it were not for your moral convictions, which keep you in Prades, you
could play the Don Quixote of Strauss to commemorate the fiftieth
anniversary of the first hearing of this work in New York, in igo4, when
of great music. Not that I deny the value of what these two composers
have created: their new artistic formula is of great interest arid denotes
has given to his works the interest and charm of which I was speaking.
Yes. It was at the time when we all visited Mrs. Ram. In those days
Debussy? But, besides this charm, I should like some broader and more
spacious music* (I cannot vouch that these are his actual words, but it was
what he meant).
with his great delicacy and his capacity for harmonic invention, but
think of Faure as coming from the trunk of great music, while Debussy
/ have heard it said that Faure had the rare privilege of being "the man
of his work**.
exquisite nature.
unalterable rules of counterpoint was not transmissible and could not be used
by his followers: but novelties in the domain of harmony, on the other hand,
Indubitably, if anyone says that Bach has been the greatest master of
This is true.
The broadminded attitude of Faure towards his pupils has been praised
such varied names as Ravel, Enesco, Florent Schmitt, Nadia Boulanger, and
others.
pupils with a spark of genius, like Enesco and Florent Schmitt, have
Would you say that, when teaching an instrument, the personality of the
I heard them for the first time (even in the case of a very gifted pupil).
Never have I been able to say to someone who came to ask for advice
and guidance, "I need not say anything since all you do is perfect." Of
course I have always been glad when I liked the personality of a new
pupil, but as a rule I am bound to say to him: "You are far from having
reached the top" or "You have not yet got a complete conception of
think unsound and can only teach you in my own way. You must
realise this if you wish to work with me. Later on, of course, your
Yes, I was in touch with him, I followed his evolution and, through
conversations I had with him, I know what his anxieties and aspirations
were. I know where he stands, and when I hear that he and some
modern composers are put together in the same category I say: No,
Schonberg was not like that: he had musical genius and he revered
all composers who deserved it. (What would some of the iconoclasts
of our time say if they had heard him say, as I have, how well he
With the prophetic instinct of his race and his profound devotion
the object of finding out what could be done with it. His attitude was
known". His goal was not to break with the past, but to increase the
intelligence.
would have to pay one hundred dollars for each performance. I said
dollars. This haggling made me feel so sick that I said I would have
Feuermann played this Concerto for the first time and in spite of the
heard any more about this Concerto except when a 'cellist called
By and large I think that some of his ideas will help in the normal
plans. In spite of all his enthusiasm, I could not escape the vision of the
I have read that some of the former pupils of Schonberg and Alban Berg
and when passing it on to his pupils he always warned them against taking
it too seriously."
master, even taking it too seriously. They cannot all have as much
And have we not seen already how ridiculous some people can be
express his talent, but it became sterile since (as I think) any music
which is not expressive has no reason to exist. I told him, "You are
walking in a maze and you must do everything you can to get out of
it." Later on, Gerhard changed his way of writing, but in his latest
works, which are of a different kind as far as structure and style are
concerned, one can detect the mark of Schonberg. I feel sure that this
period under Schonberg, and the experience he had through it, have
been useful to him. Any kind of new ideas are profitable to those who
and after these descriptive passages, I have written som^ real music.
1 "Pablo Casals has composed six Sardanas, one of them being written for an ensemble
of at least, thirty-two *celli, divided into eight principal parts. The middle part of the
symphonic work combines the air of the Castell in D Major, with an imitation on the
meant as a sound picture of the noise at a local feast, in a southern town flooded with
light. Clever imitations and dynamic gradations prevent this surplus of melody, harmony
and rhythm, from degenerating into chaos. Eventually it all clears up and a new melody
emetges. It ends with a final theme, which starts quietly and gradually gets more spirited,
recalling previous themes. It was written in 1930 to celebrate the annual Feast of Vila-
franca del Panades, on September 4th, and the rumbling noise .of the processions, the fair,
the military bands, Sardanas dancing and Castells (human mountains) produce a
wonderful impression. 1 * (Rudolf von Tobel, op. C.)
ality. At the end of his letter he quoted a bit of the Sardana that he
specially liked.) A composer has a right to use any means, even aton-
"The chord D-F-A-C [2nd degree of C Major, for instance), can be altered
fourth (Gjf (=^4b) Of)- One can also {and one had to do it constantly in the
really the second degree ofC. Chromatically one can always explain everything.
This chord we talk about becomes one based on the 1st degree ofC, if the D#
goes up to E, the Fjjj, to G, and the A\> (if the Cft, thought of enharmonically
as D[?, comes down to C) comes down to G. But one can also avoid giving
any functional explanation of a precise character, which is exactly what
as the first follows, and so on. A series of chords of that kind creates a com-
points (the sort of perpetual melody Wagner dreamt of), some moving and
varied voices in the middle register, and an irregular rhythm, we can see
clearly that if tonality exists in Wagner, it will end by being swamped under
cannot see either why the systematic use of atonality should have been
to see what it had to offer. But I am afraid his followers did not all
1 The Sardana for Violoncclli is dedicated to the London 'Cello Club (Herbert
ip34, as a homage to Pau Casals, with sixty-five 'cellists, in Zurich in 1946 and 1951,
on the occasion of Casals' seventieth and seventy-fifth birthdays, with the participation
of ninety and one hundred and twenty 'cellists respectively, and in Paris in October 1952,
at the Palais de Chaillot with eighty French 'cellists^ including Maurice Marichal,
show the same restraint and high musical conscience. They went
deeper into the annihilation of all music. They didn't even do it with
sincerity! More often than not there is only complete hypocrisy; that is,
. . . But they forgot that Wagner when he wrote Tristan did not mean to
progress', but only to find the means of expression necessary to his poetic
(Wilhelm Furtwangler.)
"On the whole Furtwangler seems to he against the composers who try to
expand the possibilities of the musical language. He asserts that the great
composers of the past never thought of 'doing something new* in the language
of music, but have in fact done so without meaning to, simply by trying to
say sincerely what they had to say. This is not so: the corner-stone of all
'tonal' music is precisely the one that was composed uniquely to demon-
Clavier by Bach, the work which has set the seal on tonal music in
I953-)
This assertion of M. Golea is not well founded. As we all know,
all the possibilities contained in tonality, some of which had not been
used in his day. Does Bach look like an innovator in this work? He
which does not understand either. After all, they are not made differ-
ently from us, are they? Look, I am going to play to you a section
(Casals takes his 'cello and begins to play a series of me wings and
scratches. I must say that to watch him with his pipe in his mouth, his
174 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
face showing perplexity as if he was waiting for something which does not
Can anyone honestly pretend that this music (?) would create any
Francis Poulenc has said: "What the Ninth Symphony did to stir up
the people of the XlXth century, The Sacre du Printemps does already for
blasphemy.
period?
Very much. But what he has given us recently is not the real
religion and adds that we ought to like music for itself and not for the
emotions it provokes . . .
together with the general public that melody should keep its place at the
You told me once that one could establish a parallel between Picasso and
Stravinsky.
Yes.
themselves and thought that they should only give to listeners the
works which they had felt, thought over and allowed to mature.
with the past. A musician can get rid of restraints and find his own way
without breaking, in a fit of temper, with all the ties which connect
"We used to think that when an artist had originality it was revealed
without effort on his part. We found that the pleasure of the unexpected was
born of those occasions when we were denied the pleasure of the expected. The
the language used, were worked out within the accepted framework. But, in
anything while the music is going on, the sensation of the unexpected has
modest creation of nature. How many leaves are on this tree in the
garden, and yet there are not two alike! If you see a friend coming
in the distance you will know him by his gait; there is no need for him
to gesticulate in any fancy way in order that you may know who it is.
Why? Just because he has his own characteristics, his originality in fact.
"So one can see that in the best works of the classical and modern schools,
repose and movement), the question and the answer, the desire and the satis-
action, was a normal procedure, not only in the psychological and intellectual
"We seem to be getting near the time when people will look with some
astonishment at the selfishness of those composers who scorn the idea of pleas-
ing and moving their listeners, and are concerned only with the praise of a
small clique, and their own inaccessible little egos. Music will have to become
conscious again of its possibilities and of the part it should play in society
it will live as long as the world. But as a pastime for the few and as a stimu-
lant for jaded, nervy people, its days are numbered." (Max d'Ollone.)
This is very well said. Composers can use any material as long as
they make a coherent whole of it, a whole which will express true
music", one can perceive vanity and impotence. I am the first to wish
At the end of his life Ysaye wrote to his son Antoine: "I can only see
strous joke played by gifted hut negative people. Art, which I thought of as a
unique and ever unfinished monument to which each generation, each school
is bringing its contribution, looks as if it had come to a dead end. I suffer for my
inability to believe any more in the strength and truth of youth, and that is why
I have come to ask you this question, for deep in my inner self I hope I am
find out what they mean. Such an attitude would be the betrayal of myself and
day — Cesar Franck, Faure, Debussy, Chausson, and others. I also have
known the perplexity Ysaye talks of, but have eventually come to
a definite attitude: I will have nothing to do with what is called
"contemporary music".
young pupil Darius Milhaud, "The worst of it is that one gets used to it."
I don't know which of Milhaud's works this was. But there are
Some of the works now recognised have taken a long time to become
understood.
speak of would have had plenty of time to establish itself. The reason
why the public does not wish to hear this music is not because it is
timbre, sonority or colour in music, and that our senses should not interfere
with our musical pleasure which is of a purely cerebral and intellectual kind.
Paul Hindemith said, "You must think of the piano as a percussion instrument
What do you think of composers who had reintroduced the Greek modes
in modern works?
I don't see anything wrong in this, any more than in any other
experiments which will enlarge the field of music. I have often thought,
for instance, that composers should get to know Hindu music because
seen what has been done by incorporating negro spirituals and Chinese
folk-songs. On the whole one cannot say that it has had much influence
on universal music, but I think that the insertion of some Hindu music
What can we expect by the use of new intervals like quarter-, third-, and
tenth-tones?
I don't think that research on those lines can lead to any valuable
results.
And what do you think of the "concrete" music we sometimes hear on the
radio? This kind of music is always recorded and does not need to be per-
formed. Using only some special instruments the authors will produce the
sound of wind from high altitudes, as well as the noise of an engine running at
constitute music. Although I like to hear a furious wind and see trees
themselves they never constitute real music. We can observe the same
The public often goes wrong . . . although Toscanini insists that the great
"A young composer's symphony," says Honegger, "has all the dis-
tions, subsidised by the State, where new works could be heard at free
I78 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
concerts. The public would have the chance of getting in touch with
new composers. As long as the latter did not think it their duty only
he should intervene, in the conflicts of his time. But art cannot be the
slave of these conflicts. However dark our times may seem, art should
Prokoviev said: "I have been trying to find a melodious and clear language
ledged. And this is where the difficulty comes in: to write music with a new
clarity:' 1
The great masters have used the recognised harmonic system, but
they have done it with such art and individual genius that their works
always seem new. In Bach and Mozart I can easily perceive a "new
triumphantly the test of time. The rest of their work I am not so sure
about.
And Hindemith?
I have not seen Hindemith since 1932, when I played with him,
I shall never forget. Never mind what his theories were, he has left
A critic wrote about one of his last works, Nobilissima Visione, that
Hindemith had used again "a language which speaks to the heart".
What ofMilhaud?
Milhaud has a great gift for composition and has given us some
Paris.)
Honegger?
greatest musical value. (I think that the best composer of our time is
just abolished.
dodecaphonism: "This serial system prides itself on having very strict rules.
These people look to me like convicts, who having shaken off their chains,
voluntarily tie up their feet with weights in order to run quicker! . . ."
(Honegger.) "One can invent as many arbitrary rules of this kind as one
chooses. But if one chooses to use them to produce a new style of musical
composition, I think one could find other rules less narrow and more inter-
esting. The idea of dodecaphonism seems to me more theoretic than all the
something else. And those who truly feel a deep necessity to compose
should do so in ways which may be new but which must in any case
matters, but the result. In the long run, time will choose, and give to
gift. I have heard a lot of music in the course of my long career, but
every time I hear Haydn I have the impression that I hear some newly
keep intact the sense of novelty and to increase the desire to hear it
again.
How far we are from the time when Bach wrote those wonderful Cantatas
just for the congregation of St. Thomas's Church! And we are even further
180 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
from the humility of the Great Cantor, who after the Sunday service put
between the artist and the collective sensibility. To "get in touch", to "com-
municate", has become very difficult, if not impossible. Isnt that the blind
alley into which not only music, but contemporary art generally, has got?
having been "seen before", or "heard before". On the other hand, if this
artist is obsessed by the desire for novelty, he takes the risk of running into
chaos, or at the best his work will only be understood by a minority. Can you
In our day an artist cannot compose like Bach, paint like Velasquez,
course we are not talking of common imitators, they are not worth
thinking about.) The work of Art carries with it the personal con-
ceptions of the artist, and those are never the same in different
artists.
creators know that life and art don't begin with them, and in this we
find the greatness of their humility — they are more intent on moving
us than on surprising us. Contemporary music shows a regrettable
plays the most important part in compositions is the use of rhythmical shock in
contrast to voluptuous melody. At the present rate we shall have by the end of
melody with brutally scanned rhythm. This will admirably suit the deformed
faculties. There are periods of crisis and straying, but man finds again
which proportion does the music of today represent adequately what we are?
These words seem to hit the nail on the head. The criterion of
conscience is what will prevail in the end, because the great things of
humanity will never change and what we shall always find in artistic
creation is the man, the man in flesh and blood and not an abstract
creature. Today we still like what is beautiful, even if the works are
thousands of years old, like Chinese and Indian poetry. They have the
same reason for existing as our true music has. Their life is the same
IX
On Interpretation
the drive and deep impulse of his nature. We have only to look round
us to realise how all bodies are organised and to notice the harmonious
He goes the wrong way who does not question himself or listen to
the "voice" of his artistic nature — provided that he has such a nature,
of course. What does matter is what we feel, and that is what we have to
express. With Bach, for instance, I knew that my duty was to reject
strongly the examples and the traditions around me, and to persevere
Can it he said that there is a style for Bach, a style for Beethoven?
I was talking with a great friend of mine and a great musician about
Some people think that there is a style for Bach, another for Mozart,
and that it is necessary to go into research to build up the true style and
bring it to life. Obviously each great composer should have his own
style since the greatest power for creation, life itself, shows us what
why shouldn't a great master have a style? Now then, the performer
so-called objectivity, but all the different phases which the author's
mind went through when creating this work, and in doing so,
observe the reactions which they produce deep down in his own
mind.
How curious this fetish of objectivity is! And is it not responsible
182
ON INTERPRETATION 183
it has a very limited power to express what the music actually means.
Great masters may have been as conscientious as you like when writing
their scores, but they are always guided in their writing by a state of
All this infinite variety cannot very well be translated just by the
writing of notes, and yet it is through these notes that we must recon-
struct all the author's state of mind! Are there any set rules for this
emotion in order to avoid its pitfalls. . . . This fear of sensibility, this fear of
oneself is farcical, as if "making music" had, for a musician, any other sense
let himself go? There is nothing worse than being held back by fear.
big work, offers him such a rich complexity of expression, and which
the written signs of the "printed note" can only partly suggest.
On some occasions I have heard you say that just as a, b, c, etc., do not
make a word, by the same reasoning the written signs of music are powerless in
making "music*.
Can anyone doubt it? We cannot see the musical idea which gave
score, I say to myself: "What marvellous music. But I must make it so/'
The performance must give to the work the full meaning of its exist-
actual notation: through it the performer gets to know the work: he traces
backwards the steps of the composer, who gave life to his music before putting
it down on paper while he wrote it down. The heart and the marrow of this
Next the performer must guess the meaning and work out the mystery of this
music in order to get to the work itself, which it is his business to bring to
lifer
learned it may be, nor any edition, however covered with annotations
from the editor, can ever replace this interpretation: the heart of a
I have noticed how often you use the words "life" and "living" when
talking of interpretation.
This is because, on the one hand, I consider life as our great adviser
and, on the other, for an artist, and especially for a performer, the
things that are not clear or may be artificial. By no means should one
simplicity of live shapes. First they must find an echo in our minds;
after which we must pursue the work of investigation and elucidation
things.
Even in the works you have studied and played for the last sixty years,
Yes, even in those, and especially in those. Only a few days ago
There are artists who, not daring to let themselves go, will give way
unity of the work, how not to be put off by some small rhythmical
liberties which the music demands, and, finally, how to remember two
very simple things: first that the natural origin of melody was vocal,
him against taking too much liberty. Besides, this liberty is the opposite
ON INTERPRETATION 185
written score. Signs don't change, of course, and yet they may every
day reveal new things to the sensitive performer. The more he studies
original at all costs, in the bad meaning of the word; if the artist
music which will allow him to get a glimpse of the heights where
rhythmical liberty always reveals (rather like a barometer) the truth — or the
player or singer**
Any performer who has not got a high conception of the work he
has to play will probably use means which will not help his inter-
same when we speak: even without noticing it, how many times do
expressive?
Rudolf von Tobel says that according to you "no composer is grateful
when, against our feeling and our convictions, we persist in following the text
like a slave** }
of following blindly the written text, and this really proves how in-
sufficient and vague are the indications they can give us. Further, I
have noticed that Saint-Saens, Moor, Granados and many others did
not perform their works twice in the same way; neither did they
"It is a fallacy to say that the performer, over and above his study of the
music, should reconstruct the concrete intention of the author in his per-
1 All quotations from von Tobel are taken from his book, Pablo Casals. .
l86 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
only performance that will he valuable to him is also the one which has
not only accept different versions of his work, but will enjoy the variety
as long as they showed zest for life and the freshness of novelty which,
What nonsense!
Did Ravel hear you play his Trio with Cortot and Thibaud?
composer.) Having known him since he was very young, as I told you
nature.
Chopin 1 s Funeral March: "I have often thought, and I am not the only one of
this opinion, that the performance had more value than the work itself
Rubinstein remade it, completed it, added something that was missing. He
turned it into one of those poems which stir the most intransigent soul. 11
There are some examples where a performer has for ever attached the seal
of the Bach Suites. Ysaye wrote about the Beethoven Violin Concerto
played by Joachim: "It is forty years since the Hungarian Master played this
work, which had not been much noticed before, but he played it so beautifully
that his name seems to be coupled with the work ever since. It is he, if I may
say so, who has made a masterpiece of it. If he had not produced this ideal
rendering of the work, it is possible that it would have been put aside and
forgotten. But no, he has revitalized it, enlarged it, transformed it! . . "
1 Gisele Brelet: V interpretation Crtatrice. (Presse Universitaires de France,
Paris.)
ON INTERPRETATION 187
The violinists of Beethoven's day either did not attach much importance
rendering of the work has not disappeared yet. I heard the great
violinist play it. Although I did not agree with all he did, I remember
the work.
can see the way, and follow it to the end, without losing his personality, or
impregnated by it, even advisable not to try anything else, in the certainty
that here is the truth and the light which illuminates, and will always illumin-
how can we avoid the different performances which followed his and
ception of the work, which did not at all resemble that of the great
Hungarian Master. . . .
Yes, as you go from the physical part, which the artist must use, to
the musical creation, another part of our being comes in. I spoke to
You mean about the respective parts the intelligence and the instinct take
during a performance. . . .
instead of good. When all is said it is instinct which not only creates
Mozart and Schubert are two exceptional cases of intuition whose works
many intelligent people who think constantly and, as a result, get into
But you dorit stop there; you just go on with hard work.
worked at it for a few weeks, first on the piano then on the 'cello.
You are now seventy-seven, and, in your solitude in Prades, you still
family said to me, talking about this recitative, "How do you manage
out the proper shape of all these notes, and their connection with each
other and with the ensemble of it. To sort it all out is an immense work.
However, you can now notice how different it is from when I began."
sorting out its principal trends, its architectural sense and the relation
must look for is the meaning of the music: that is only to be found
Does that mean that the truth of the music can vary?
necessary to insist that the greatest respect he can pay to the music
1 Bruno Walter relates (in Theme and Variations, Alfred Knopf, New York)
that once in London, when Casals was to play the Schumann Concerto with him, on
arriving at the Hall for the last rehearsal he found Casals practising exercises in the
artists' room. As he apologised for arriving so early, Casals just said "all right** and
went on playing. During the rehearsals, says Walter, Casals played the Concerto with a
saintly devotion and perfection. When, in the evening, he came again to the Queen's
Hall, he found that Casals was conscientiously playing his exercises again, and he
Yehudi Menuhin, has written this about interpretation: "The task for the
and his own conscience. He tries his very best to reproduce the essence of what
the composer has formed in his mind. At all costs he must keep in touch with
the author's conception, and yet the possibility of this conception being
revived depends entirely on the reality of his own conviction and of his own
emotions."
This is very true. When Menuhin was very young and was being
taught by Enesco, the latter invited me to go and hear his pupil play a
Menuhin family. After the concert Enesco took me aside to find out
what my opinion was. I told him I thought that his pupil was ex-
tremely gifted and had a perfect technique, but I also told him what
it was not fully alive. To which Enesco replied, "The reason is that in
Bach's day one did not do that sort of thing.' ' Confronted by this
of the admiration I have for this very great artist and a friendship so
dear to me, I was sorry to find him tied up with this idea, which I
excluded any more than, in speaking, one should eliminate any means
answered: "This is an error. Unless one keeps watch over one's feelings they
These, probably, are not exactly the words I used with my friend
of what has first been ordained and fixed by the intelligence. I am, of
A modern composer said that "he works with joy". Could you say the
same?
a joy which will probably be mixed with the bitter pangs of the work
coming from the recesses of the soul. Nevertheless, with him, the
hours can pass very happily so that he loses all sense of time. The instru-
mentalist — at least I feel that way — does count the hours ! And he does
by Enesco when he said: "Poor devils! They are just like convicts (con-
How true ! When he goes to bed after a concert he sees his perform-
been.
the whole thing in my mind and I see again, with perfect exactitude,
everything which went off the rails, and I go through every single
note. I cannot get to sleep until I have made this examination, exacting
and painful.
And this may happen after the public has called you back a dozen times?
by the artist.
Gavoty, he said that "on the one hand the impeccability which is expected
from a virtuoso nowadays, and on the other the longing he has to evade the
1 In 1952 a barrister from Bombay sent a eulogistic letter to Casals in which he said,
"For me you represent amongst performers what Bach and Beethoven represent amongst
composers.'* Casals answered him: "I can only tell you, in all humility, that I have
spent all my life working towards the ideal every artist should have. But I can
also say that I am a long way from reaching the summit of the ideal, although I
case the general musicality of the performance can make up for it.
but the fact is that when making a gramophone record where every
everywhere.
believe I possess. This is a gift which does not belong to every artist and
it is difficult for those without it to realise how the lack of it can make
feeling, and yet he had not got this sense of time in space. While he
was playing the Allemande of one of the Bach Suites, he did not realise
come too late one after the other, with the result that this " widening"
made one lose the notion of the original tempo, and, in this case, he
was not doing the repeats ! (If he had been the result would have been
fatal.) But nowadays artists who possess this sense of tempo risk losing
fast. There are many reasons for this: the improvement of instruments
counteract it.
Prokoviev wrote: "Some hundred and fifty years ago our ancestors were
devoted to the gay pastorals of Rameau and Mozart; in the XlXth century
everyone preferred slow and grave rhythms. Today we ask from music and
the fact that these artificial methods should also deform the works of
There is no set rule: the words allegro, adagio, and so on are only
London.
Yes, I did conduct this work. The controversy you allude to was on
the subject of the 7th variation, marked 6/8 Vivace, which most con-
time signatures as meaning quite different things, and in 6/8 each note
of the triplets has an effect which does not exist if you beat it in two.
all the week. The whole thing became a sort of scandal until, on the
following Sunday, The Observer wrote, "I was thankful to hear this
variation played in its proper tempo for the first time, in fact as
Brahms himself performed it."
belonged?
former must deal with the music he is to play on its own merits. The
artist of today cannot know or imagine with any certainty how a work
was played in some remote period; anyone trying to pursue this way
name. We cannot revive feelings that are buried in the past. We don't
ON INTERPRETATION 193
the past. Haven't we got positive evidence that we know more and
understand better than our ancestors how to play, for instance, Bach
and Mozart?
In the Cahiers de Conversation of Beethoven, we read that a friend
if these crimes were the order of the day then as well as now.
Neither the ' 'purists" nor the "archaeologists" convince me. How do
you imagine the orchestra sounded in the days of Mozart and Beethoven
to you before? And how much did the orchestral players of those days
care for proper intonation? And that's only one thing. You all know
that one of the duties of the leading violinist of those days was to drag
the rest of the orchestra along. And that is exactly what happened: the
leader was always heard very slightly ahead of the other instruments.
masters may have made do with the material at their disposal, but that
does not mean they had no wish to improve or augment their orches-
geniuses of all periods have always shown that they saw the necessity
beauty.
Times have changed . . .
music.
settled the question of tempo) to put ourselves in the mind of the composer
People say that when you study a work you read it first and sing the
principal themes, after which you play the whole thing on the piano. Only
when you have gathered some of its meaning do you take the 'cello and bow.
What do you think ofGieseking's method which he has inherited from his
master Leimer? He never allowed him to use his instrument before he had
But I think it is not enough for an artist to learn music only through
itself will not change your idea of the work, the transmission of sound
The proof of this is that the artist finds something new in each per-
visually !
isolated, each note is like a link in a chain — important in itself and also
There are some artists who only feel inspired by reading or performing a
piece when, at a given time, they recollect a landscape, or remember reading
something which has helped them to penetrate the musical sense of the work
in question.
them: what do you feel, what do you see? An artist has imagination
and fantasy, and when he gives himself to music he ought to feel and
ON INTERPRETATION 195
technical difficulties. One must realise that formerly when we naively admired
'technique', it was a very different thing from what it is today. It was not the
struck the listeners of their day. Every time, it was their personality which
found expression through the appropriate technique and exactly fitted their
message."
thing he does is intended, thought out, selected from amongst all the different
this simple word: "almost" which should hold our attention . . . Casals has
what he believes everyone should possess — control of all his thoughts, of all
approximate results. What he wants is full realisation, and until he has found
elements and not to lose the right proportions. I don't see why every-
one should not do the same, or how any performer who is conscious
"approximate".
One day, last summer, sitting in this room waiting for the post to come,
Switzerland with Serkin. You stopped very often and annotated the parts.
Considering you have played this work hundreds of times during the past fifty
years, I could not help admiring your application.
75 it true that in the course of time you have played certain passages in
make the charm of music. And besides, how can we expect to produce
year the leaves of the trees reappear with the spring, but they are
People say that one of your most surprising faculties is the capacity you
control them and my memory registers them. Isn't this the privilege
You once told me that your contribution to music had consisted mostly in
things but we forget the ABC. My aim has always been to revalue
easy task for those who are able to see clearly the mutations of musical
very like the series of vocal nuances and varied gestures which add to
intonation in performance.
great players like Sarasate and Thompson play out of tune with the
greatest ease in the world. In fact, having read many books on the
intonation, which makes me think that they did not attach much
importance to it. And yet I can hardly believe that a composer like
Mozart would not have felt the necessity of it. A great genius is always
ON INTERPRETATION 197
Would you tell me why you use the term "expressive" intonation? 1
subtlety that the intonation of note must affect the listener, quite apart
public would not accept a good soloist if he did not play in tune.
Singers are taught "tempered" intonation, but I have noticed that the
most gifted and the most artistic ones realise the importance and the
for example I can prove with my system that there is a greater distance
between a D|; and a Qjf than there is in a semitone like C-D|? or CJ-Dtj.
day when I was giving a young pupil his first lesson, I asked him how
he had been taught; he said he had been taught intonation from the
this!
intonation?
tones) the conflict does not arise, which proves that the ' 'fusion* '
Casals means by "expressive intonation", but it does not really explain the point.
Casals actually means that diatonic semitones are smaller than chromatic ones, and
therefore it becomes a question of a sharper note being nearer the next note above
it (such as Fjjf to G) than to the semitone below it (such as G to G\>).) (Note of
translator.)
"In matters of intonation Casals does not concern himself with the comma,
of the scale and its enharmonic equivalent. His insistence on the true quality
of sharps and flats has a solid basis. He hirdly recognizes sevenths or leading
notes unless their specific harmonic tendencies draw them right away from
the inertia of tempered pitch to the point where they are almost identical
with their goal. This is what Casals calls lajustesse expressive. And it is a thing
(Alexanian.)
perfectly possible.
You told me of the painful impression you get on hearing very good
that does not influence my judgment, but I must say that I cannot
string instrument?
for his aural sense. Only yesterday I had the joy of seeing a pupil of
realise how much better he could hear the exact sound. The effects of
frequent) can affect a player through the whole of his career, however
J have read thai your sense of distances is so accurate that you were able to
play the Haydn Concerto when you had such a bad cold that you were quite
Shortly before the Prades Festival of 1952, you received a letter from
them. They always sound best just before they break. My friends seem
new string.
That has happened to me and it is far from being funny — but one
ON INTERPRETATION 199
of these technical ideas of mine are already widespread, but it does not
mean that, at first, they did not shock many players of the old school. 1
fingers in a general way; this makes the playing easier and avoids a lot
of shifts which are often detrimental to the music played.
Some people think that you have an exceptional hand which allows you
to do these fingerings.
allows me these great extensions of fingers I told you of. If one's hands
are too small it would be better to give up playing the 'cello. But with
in such a way that the maximum result can be attained with the least
which seems the simplest and the safest. I used to employ these exten-
sions on a large scale but I have given up some of the more tiring ones
since it is sufficient to know how to use the means nature has put at
our disposal.
I have heard you insist on the necessity of taking every chance of relaxing
muscular tensions.
moment they can relax the hand and the arm. Even in the course of a
rapid passage it is possible to find the right moment to relax. (This
necessity in performance and if one does not take it into account there
comes a time when one cannot relax (it is like being unable to breathe)
and exhaustion sets in. This fatigue of the hand and arm mostly comes
from the tension of the muscles produced through emotion and "stage-
1 Casals receives many letters from 'cellists who show their appreciation and gratitude:
here is an extract from a recent one written by a 'cellist in Cleveland: "I know now that
if my interpretations are successful I owe it all to you: you have changed the old
way of playing the 'cello through your musicianship, the finger extensions (new
Alas! I have known it more than once. It comes from too much
becomes a real martyrdom. One just feels empty and unable to give
anything.
In spite of your long years of playing in public, I believe you have always
career — they all suffered from stage-fright, with some rare exceptions.
(Fritz Kreisler, for instance, used to say he felt perfectly "at home" on
the platform.) But can you imagine that I have not known any artist
Even now?
method, but in the fact that it taught one to relax completely different
parts of the body, which is a thing many people could not do even if
they wanted to. If you pay attention you can notice that when we
some part of the body that could be relaxed more. And don't you
which are exactly what we want, to keep up the suppleness of the arm
talked to me about it, not even Monasterio. Only this impulse, coming
from the centre of the body instead of each extremity, will group the
less fatigue. This impulse, coming from what I call the centre of the
body, is rather like an image of what I feel at the time, not an easy
This constant search for flexibility may partly explain the fact that at the
age of seventy-seven you can still astonish those who listen to you performing
ON INTERPRETATION 201
possesses.
But dorit you think that this precious equilibrium is partly due to some
mental factor also? When you take your 'cello it looks as if some trans-
formation came over you. Do you think you would keep the same balance and
absolute dud at doing any odd jobs or anything of that kind. Oddly
any other instrument. For instance, when two little boys came to see
me the other day to show me the flageolets their parents had bought
for them at the fair, I immediately seized one and played some well-
noticed how you make an entry: the very first note you play. . . .
work. When I hear my pupils play the first bar of a score, I often
stop them and say, "No, this is not like a beginning." And yet it is not
I would say that your way of playing requires a great variety in the
every part of the work he plays. Accentuation does not mean uniform
intensity. Nothing that was uniform could move us. In fact it is the
diminuendo following a forte accent which gives it its value, and what
of intensity into it. What happens in painting? When the artist wishes
to make a colour stand out, he tones down the ones around it: in the
same way with music, an accentuated note will stand out and keep its
because of the shade which succeeds it. These remarks find a parallel
in a law of nature: Let us shout very loud and observe the endless diminuendo
natural reality.
their relation with each other, and on the other, with the bulk of the
the use of the spoken word, that is to say with the endless inflections
we use in our voices so that the words find their real meaning.
feel sure that the special things they thought I had came from the fusion
of the principles I have been talking of. 1 When they are more wide-
spread and applied to the orchestra, they will give it new and more
You barred the habit of constantly using the bow in all its length, didnt
you?
all the time. It seemed useless to me. The bow, being an element of
quite natural to use it in all its length for long notes just as it is to use
only part of it for shorter notes. The right hand should have the
1 A critic has written saying it was very difficult to talk of "Casals as a musician"
ON INTERPRETATION 203
(which have influenced each other), there has been a leading pre-
occupation with what they call Varchet a la corde, which has become
passages. The range of expression goes from the softest pianissimo to the
loudest fortissimo; besides, as I told you before, even a fortissimo will not
sound like one, unless we add a diminuendo, which is precisely what will
make the accent sound important.
well understood.
the bow, the first thing and the most elementary is to hold it properly.
One sees such curious things: only the other day as I was giving the
first lesson to a new pupil, I noticed that he was holding his bow with
contortion of the wrist, bound to be tiring in the end. The bow must
rest on the first joint and should press on the point of articulation of the
first and second joint. In that position the. hand is placed naturally and
At one time you had a piece of cork round the nut of your how, and one
noticed the number of 'cellists who adopted it — in the belief they had dis-
However supple one keeps one's right hand, the thumb is bound to
was due to the drawing of the fingers too near to the thumb (which
also happens to writers). That was why I had this piece of cork fixed on
the bow, and I was amused to see how some other 'cellists imitated me
without any physical reason for it. But that was a long time ago and
the reasoning which leads to evidence!" Ludwig noticed that in the course of
conversation you often used the French word raison. Was this what was
tion'?
these talks with him have always been most stimulating. He talks
about my "eternal logic". But is this logic not guided and nourished
by intuition?
Naturally !
Could one say that Ysaye and Paderewski still belonged to a romantic
age?
Possibly !
On the other hand, a critic has said that he finds in your mind the classic
I don't know, it is possible ! You know that I don't care very much
In the days of Liszt, Chopin and Schumann, when romanticism was at its
If I had lived then, maybe I would not have been the same as I am
now, and very probably my musical conceptions would also have been
different.
was "inconsistency personified^ but, more than anyone, could give in his
applied.
And Busoni?
ON INTERPRETATION 205
occasions. I had such sympathy and admiration for him that, even
when I did not agree with him, I always respected and accepted his
convictions — I could not say the same about Paderewski. There was an
forming what he felt. For instance, he played the Cesar Franck Prelude,
Yes, and he was very young then, perhaps eighteen, and hardly
known as a pianist.
me. I had not met such a mature artist of that age, and I would
Amongst the contemporary 'cellists, I know you have a great regard for
Yes, what a great artist Feuerman was! His early death was a great
loss to music.
Kreisler."
I don't think Joachim was conspicuous for his originality (at least,
and consequently did not let himself go. Every time I heard him play
alone or with his quartet, he made me feel that he did not always
produce what there was in the music he played. But, mind you,
after this " classicism' ' we had the overflowing imagination of Ysaye's
genius.
but is so perfectly harmonious with the rest that it gives his playing
impressive brilliance.
And we must not forget the two great names of Joseph Szigeti and
Yehudi Menuhin.
Anton Rubinstein were really like, and what effect they would have on
limitations.
Before you had this 'cello, did you play on the Gagliano which Queen
Yes!
ON INTERPRETATION 207
them!"
All the same, you very nearly bought one of them!
one in existence. I made him an offer, but he did not accept it. Now I
am glad he did not, for the reasons I have given you, and also because
it was too big for me. It would have had to be shortened, which might
have spoiled it. Mr. Mendelssohn emigrated to America when the Nazi
persecution was on. He had a tragic end, but his 'cello is now in the
which had been specially made for them, and it had a second violon-
cello equally splendid. I am certain that if I had asked her, the Queen
would have been pleased to lend me this second instrument. Some time
decided to decline the offer. However, at that time I went to visit the
I can remember a period when your Goffriller was being repaired and you
the orchestra, he asked me, "Is it a Strad?" I did not say anything but
just smiled. But when I explained what it was, Ysaye could not get
over it.
the different climate was so harmful that it lost a great deal of its
magnificent tone.
On this subject I can tell you about a very curious fact. My friend,
Auguste Mangeot, the Director of the Monde Musical in Paris (and the
the difficulty for students and young musicians of acquiring old Italian
instruments, and the quite unjustified contempt people have for new
the hall was kept in darkness, and when the lights were put on the
listeners wrote down their impression of the last number. Do you know
which instrument got the highest praise? A 'cello made by the maker
Paul Kaul and his associate a few months previously, when they asked
me to play it.)
Another competition took place two or three years later, and it was
Your patience with, pupils is well known, but I see that you also have to
Most of the 'cellists who come to see me and wish me to hear them
ask if they may play a Bach Suite. "Play whatever you like," I say,
"even a Waltz. By the way you handle your instrument, I shall see
capitals. They would spend all they have earned through years of
work, as well as what they have not yet earned. Anyone who has real
talent gets recognition sooner or later.
of fact I don't envy those who sit on the jury for these competitions.
it, but at the same time I warned him that my piece would only take
the Conservatoire of the French capital. Faure agreed and said "Do
The day of the concours the hall was absolutely filled with the
students, their families and their friends. Now what happened was that
ON INTERPRETATION 209
not one of the candidates could read the piece I had written. This
started a terrific scandal, and I had to be let out through a special door,
once the playing has gone through a machine it loses the vitality the
That may be, but I still prefer the recordings of some thirty years
I should like to hear what has been done with the recordings of the
Bach Suites I made in [937 and 1939, which have been adapted to
rule, I prefer to hear the records I have made played faster. In the case
tone and a half, sharper. The difference of keys does not worry me
at all.
Yes! I have spent my life meditating oil the instrument and the
works written for it, and, no doubt, I could say endless things on the
And yet, this is not the principal reason; just as with the written
How could one communicate the richness and the life of a single
always on the move. And since technique for me is a means and not
evolution.
lessons, not only with words but also with % cello playing as you do?
approach me about it, but I did not see clearly what this firm had in
From what you have told me, and what you have said, it follows that you
are not thinking of publishing your editions of 'cello works? Not even the
Bach Suites, for which you probably have received dozens of offers?
No ! There will not be any edition of mine, of either the Bach Suites
My way of performing a work does not last longer than the actual
playing of it: that is to say, I don't know, and cannot know beforehand,
observing the indications I wrote myself, and which they may have
editions, and mine would only add to the general confusion. The only
thing that matters is the personal way of performing the notes and
values we have in front of us, and there is no edition which can do that
for us.
Alexanian says that you have established "a complete code of instrumental
logic which can be continued and developed by anyone who will seriously
which I brought it. What would you say of a tree which only came
out one spring? For a tree to be fertile, its boughs must grow every
year.
Much better than any treatises or editions, my pupils, all those who
have had direct contact with me, will carry on my method and my
definite boundaries.
Is it a long time since you went to play in Russia for the last time?
Yes. I have often spoken to you about my great friend Siloti, who
was the beloved disciple of Liszt. His wife came from a great Russian
in Moscow and made a gift of it to the city. Siloti lived in St. Peters-
burg. He devoted all his talent and work to the cause of popular
which gave concerts for the students and the workers. He led a simple
life, free from ostentation. He lived for his art and for the people. The
most eminent Russian musicians met at his house. Then came the
came ill; as a living-place for his wife and five children he was given the
kitchen of his own house and a small adjacent room. The rest of his
house was occupied by young men of the new regime where they led a
the most impossible and degrading things. The only valuable they
managed to hide was a necklace. And it was thanks to the value of this
Finland.
I was very worried about them, since I did not receive any news.
But one day, when I was in Barcelona, there was a letter from Antwerp
from Siloti saying "We are here." I went off immediately, and when I
met them at Antwerp I could hardly recognise them; they looked like
avoided, but I don't accept that, under the pretext of forming a new
social order, these leaders think they can persecute blindly the very
people who have practised fraternity with the workers and the people.
quoted question, "Would you sacrifice the child who is in front of you to
No, never! The end does not justify the means. I have protested
And a few years later we had the Nazis who began persecuting people
liberties were restored. When, later on, Mussolini imitated the Nazis,
The only weapons I possess are the 'cello and the conductor's
baton. They are not very deadly, but I have no others, and do not wish
For me, it was very painful to leave them, but I thought that by
taking this attitude I was more faithful to Bach and Beethoven, and all
they stood for, than to the people who through weakness or fanaticism
This attitude, and the one you took later, have raised a lot of comment on
pastime, a toy for men to play with, or if it should have a deep and
used in good faith, can cover up much confusion. It may mean the
nature. In this case moral principles are involved which prevail above
all frontiers; all men of good will should fight against the violation of
these principles.
Since the affaire Dreyfus the goodwill of men seems to have declined,
and for some time now we have been in a period called the "time of contempt".
But is it possible that moral principles (which are not the same
1 "Casals is the only Aryan artist who has made a definite stand against the new
cution was unjust fifty years ago, would it not be so today? The great
persecuted for our ideas or feelings; also that the power which rules us
sad instances of it) we see the appearance of barbarous despots, and the
conception of all art, which should elevate and not degrade us. Con-
When I see innocent blood spilled and the tears of the victims of
In the course of the first and terrible phase of the Spanish tragedy,
I got so indignant one day that I did not hesitate to risk my life to save
a man who was persecuted. I was at Sant Salvador practising the 'cello.
Two armed men entered my room and said, "We have been told that
Mr. X is here." (He was a business man from Barcelona who spent the
summer in a house next to mine.) "He is not here," I said. They went
off. A moment later they returned with poor Mr. X, whom they had
arrested, and who already feared the worst; his wife was at his side
Vendrell to get them to send a cart." (Those famous carts they used for
I faced them and said: "I shall do the telephoning, not you. Why
did you arrest this man? You can do what you like but you will not
take Mr. X away, do you hear?" They had revolvers and guns. I had
nothing: but the tone of my voice made them understand that I meant
what I said. They had a moment of hesitation which was decisive. They
muttered, "We had orders from the Mayor of Vendrell." I took the
telephone and talked to the man who was supposed to be the mayor.
My words were of such a kind that he got frightened and said: "These
men have made a mistake. I told them to go somewhere else." The tone
of his voice belied his words. I communicated his answer to the men
and told them they could go and that Mr. X would stay. As they went
214 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
well.
of principle: the main responsibility for the civil war fell on those who
pronunciamento failed, they tried to secure the help of Fascist Italy and
Nazi Germany. In all civilised countries one should accept the decision
of the people, and those who are not satisfied should wait for the
next elections.
Very strange, when you think that the authorities of the Academy
signed the diploma the day before Franco's Army came into Barcelona!
That was the last meeting of the Catalonia University. Italian aircraft
were flying over the town all the time, evacuation had already started,
No. I had been away a little while, playing at concerts, and when
the war ended I was in Paris, ill with all the symptoms of nervous
depression. I was staying with an old pupil and was kept all day in
complete darkness, as I could not bear any light. I felt broken and worn
out. The news I got from home was terrible: oppression had begun in
first person who told me about Prades, where he had been a resident.
He said it was a pretty little town at the foot of the Canigou, where
visited many places on the coast as I am very fond of the sea. This was
not fancy any of the places I saw. Then I decided to go and live in
Prades,
sedative.
regular office to centralise all the gifts, the purchases, the demands and
the camps. I wrote to friends for funds and we were glad of any gifts.
that my visits brought some consolation to those who had lost contact
with the world outside and who were lamentably demoralised, hope-
less and abandoned. I tried to send small gifts to all those who asked
to them.
To be exiled in America, sheltered from all danger, and also able to make
who, like myself, had been hunted from their country, and try to
When the French defeat came in June 1940, you must have found yourself
in a difficult position.
Very. At that time I thought all was lost in Europe. Also the rumour
was spreading that the Spanish Army, taking advantage of the French
retreat as the Italians had done, would cross the Pyrenees. Some refugee
to England from there. Before leaving I had burnt all the comprom-
to sail in had been sunk by the German Air Force the day before. We
tried other ships but it was all impossible, and we had to return to
Prades, which we reached after a very difficult journey as all the roads
were filled with refugees. There was such a panic at the time that when
we got back to our hotel at Prades, in the middle of the night, no one
would open the door, and it was only because the tobacconist opposite
heard us and let us in that we did not spend the night outside. After
Some of them had been transformed into what they called Compagnies
with the news of the wonderful resistance anglaise we got more con-
anxiously listened every night to the radio from London. Things were
I thought I ought to help the French, who were going through a very
difficult time, and gave concerts for charity in the free zone, Lyons,
Marseilles, Perpignan; but after the Allied landing in North Africa the
whole of France was occupied. I would not leave Prades, and with the
attitude.
and went through every bit of paper I had, and when they retired
you.
The atmosphere became more and more intolerable; one day from
gate and I thought we were for it. They came in, behaved extremely
well, and said, after a military salute, "We are great admirers of yours
and we have come to greet you and find out how you are." They sat
down and started a conversation which lasted over two hours. "So you
are the Casals our fathers and grandfathers told us about?" "1 am."
After a series of praises they came to the usual question: "And why
don't you go and play in Germany?" "For the same reason I do not go
and play in Spain." "We think you are mistaken. Hitler is a great man,
who protects artists and the arts." "That is your opinion; I have mine."
"Wouldn't you like to come and play in Berlin again? Hitler himself
will come and hear you, and if you like we'll put a railway carriage at
to them, but I was determined I would not do it. So when they asked
shoulder for some days, and could not play. They insisted and said,
"Just a few notes." I refused. They saw my instrument and plucked the
strings. I felt disturbed at the thought that perhaps these hands had
spilled blood or were tainted. "Is this the 'cello you played on in
their chief would ask them for proof of their visit; I signed a photo-
As they went, and I looked out of the window, they asked me if they
could take a photograph (another proof). I did not see them again.
After the Allied landing in Normandy, the situation must have been even
more tense.
who were to be arrested, and heard the local chief say "When the
time comes, Casals will see what is in store for him." This young man
had the courage to stand up to him and said it was infamous and that
For some reason we were left at liberty after the landing took place.
During those days every hour seemed like a hundred years. There was
to Prades and attacked the house where the Gestapo were operating.
One German got killed and many were wounded. What would be the
went to the military commander and told him all the responsibility for
the moment we had been waiting for arrived. The German troops
evacuated the town. Hope became a reality. Our exile (at least so we
Two weeks later the young man of the Militia, of whom I have
thick with excitement and hatred for this Militia. I was feeling sick
with fear for the life of the young man. I stuck to what I had said in my
letter. Out of the four accused, three were given the death penalty and
executed; the fourth, my young friend, was given thirty years' solitary
confinement, but he only stayed in prison two or three years and was
released.
He, first, had probably saved mine. In any case, in those horrible
days it was a small comfort to have been able to save one human life.
XI
Hope Frustrated
After the liberation you must have felt you were morally free to start
where they thought of you as a great artist who had resisted the seductions as
ing abroad again in the hope that I should soon be able to go back to my
also gave concerts in Paris and other French towns. Unfortunately the
duration of this tour was much shorter than I had anticipated.
When you were in Switzerland you received a visit from Don Juan de
say that Don Juan wished to see me. When we began to talk, this
affectionate.
on its label.
added that, out of all the people he had spoken to on the subject
recently, those he liked best for their sincerity were two Catalans: a
I also told him that he would have to justify himself to the Spanish
people for having offered to support the military revolt when the
civil war began. "At that time," he said, "I did not think I could act
otherwise."
219
plebiscite should decide the form of the future regime of Spain, and he
added that he did not feel inclined to accept any direct offer made by
the dictator (Franco). But later on, Don Juan changed his mind: now
Spanish people want; also he has agreed that his eldest son should be
So it looks as if Don Juan just obeyed the law of the dictator, and he is
not the only one: the governments of most democratic nations are
Yes. It was just before the collapse of the Nazi regime, when
protected some Jews, and so on. "It is quite unnecessary for you to
make music." "Be patient," I said, "and consider yourself lucky that
terms I talk to you about him. But, personally, I think that the higher
the value of an artist, the more responsibility he has for all his
actions.
At the time we speak of, I found myself in Paris for a banquet given
certain musicians who I knew had not behaved with any dignity or
Secretary was making a sign to the Minister who was sitting next to
me. "Do you mean to make a speech now?" I asked. "Of course."
"Well, I must ask you not to do it because, if you do, I shall have to
answer you, and I would feel obliged to say certain things which
They have. But I have not changed and I shall go on thinking that
When you played in Paris again on November 13th, 1945, it was seven
years since you had played there, and when you came away from the Salle
Pleyel the Director said to you that he had never had such a demonstration
in his Hall before! But if my memory is right, the first concert you played at
Yes. I went to London filled with hope and also full of admiration
for the heroism and toughness the English had shown during the war,
specially in the most difficult moments, when they were alone against
English musicians and the British people, which was published in some
musical periodical.
(This message was published by the London Philharmonic Post in
July 1945.)
colleagues but the English public how I followed with the greatest
anxiety all that happened here during these six terrible years. In my
all the ups and downs you went through in this great country of
yours, and I did not attach more importance to the numerous and
orchestra and your soloists during these trying days. I know how
you travelled from town to town during air raids, keeping alive
"I feel sure that history will keep a record of what England did
and I am glad I lived to see that such things are still possible. I was
already old when this war began, and I am older still now, but
I would like to say that these years were very intense ones for
me.
1 In 1945, when Casals was presented with the Cross of Grand Officier de la Ligion
d'Honneur, M. Georges Bidault, who was then Minister for Foreign Affairs in the
provisional Government of the French Republic, said: "You are one of the consciences
of our time."
I shall never forget the reception I had from the London public. 2
Yes, this welcome back was very moving, but even more was the demon-
stration outside when you came out and thousands of people were shouting
deliriously.
The enthusiasm of all these people, who had just written one of the
I believe you also had a chance to talk to the Catalans through the micro-
I had been away from my native land for seven years; now it is
When I arrived at the B.B.C. studio and began to think that after
fly to you all who are listening and those who are on our beloved
Catalan soil. When the magic of the waves will carry to you the sound
of our old melody El Cant dels Ocells, I should like it to convey to you
also an echo of the nostalgia felt by all those who are far away from
our Land. May this feeling we share, and of which we are proud, make
— united as brothers in the same faith, with the hope of a future period
1 "At the age of seventy we find the great Casals perfectly capable of starting
the life of a virtuoso with the energy and the ideals of a young man. When he
appeared on the platform (the familiar figure and modest attitude, quite bald,
not very much taller than the 'cello he was holding), finding his way through
the stands of the B.B.C. orchestra, the crowd which filled the Albert Hall stood
up to give a vociferous welcome to the man whose name will survive not only
because of his artistic prestige but also on account of his symbolising the highest
human virtues and resistance against tyranny. . . . He played the Schumann and
the Elgar Concertos and, from the first notes, it was clear that he had not lost
any of his 'magic'. Casals has succeeded in symbolising the spirit of resistance
amongst musicians. The greatness of the artist can only be compared with the
greatness of the man. Americans and English wanted to have the honour of
bringing him to London by air. In the end the B.EA. did not allow him to pay
for his flight, and the Customs did not inspect his luggage." (From a London daily
paper.)
2 I shall never forget the way Casals played the Sarabande in C Minor of Bach as an
people. It is sufficient to read the English papers of the time to realise what a
reception you had in England, and yet when you returned you took a step
must have been the most painful decision of your life! Could you explain to
that I was nearing the end of my exile, since the victory of the Allied
Nations was logically bound to put an end to the Franco regime. But
was there any indication that they would decide to get Franco removed.
On the contrary, the news and articles published in the Press were
Commons many times and insisted on England with the other victor-
ious Nations adhering to the ideas and principles for the defence of
had been in exile for years, hoped, as I did, that the victory of the
Allied Nations over totalitarian regimes meant for them and for thou-
For them there would only be deception at the hands of the victorious
applause and fees from the democratic nations who were ready to
abandon us? No, my duty was to protest against this ignominy. The
deceit of friends is even more cruel than the attacks of the enemy. All
existence.
these honours as long as the attitude of England towards Spain had not
answered "No, you would speak about politics and I about morals —
Yes, it was the day before I left London. I had told my dear friend,
She arranged an interview, and for an hour I talked to the late King
was the moral duty of England and of the other Allied Nations — to
that the responsibility was with the Democratic Nations for following
Spanish Civil War. The Spanish people, I added, would not under-
stand that since the aggressors had been vanquished, they would not
be given the chance to become again <-he masters of their own destiny.
The Secretary bowed his head and said he would transmit my report
letter from Myra Hess in which she said that the Secretary had in-
formed the King of my visit and that, immediately, the Queen had
the last one in Montpellier, but I declared I would not accept any
based on the freedom and the will of the people, was not re-established
in Spain.
HOPE FRUSTRATED 225
After Casals had made his decision known, hundreds of letters came
reproduce here, if it were not for the added work it entails. Many of those
who wrote, while approving of his moral attitude, begged him to recon-
"I cannot do it," said Casals. "I cannot go back to the countries
of the authorities and the audiences, I could not forget the sad
conscience since I know I have done my duty. If I had not done so,
figure for a tour of the United States, if he would like to go. He thanked
them for their intention and the trust they showed, but he returned the
cheque. Amongst the proposals he received there was one of two hundred
negative — they have continued during the last seven years, and have not
yet ended.
And what does Casals do? People wonder! He leads a very laborious
life far from the great cities. The tasks of an instrumentalist and of a com-
poser would already be sufficient to occupy a man like him. Also, there are
the pupils. Young ' cellists from America, Japan, France and Mexico, from
And there are visitors! People of all kinds and conditions knock at the
door of the little house now called El Cant dels Ocells, and when they
faithful dog of the master, they know that the great man is simplicity itself
Of course, there are numerous musicians amongst the callers, from the
most well known to the young pupil from a Swiss Conservatoire, who
has come by hitch-hiking, and hesitates a long time before knocking at the
door.
Also, there are the letters to be answered; they come by the hundreds.
from compatriots or not, and Casals spends three or four hours a day dealing
with them, very happy when he realises that someone has been helped in
their misfortune.
And so the months and the years go by for the artist who has become a
recluse. Then came 1950, a celebration year for the second centenary of
Bach's birth; and since Casals had decided to shut himself up in Prades,
the musicians and music lovers from all over the world joined him there
XII
Yes, at the start are some of my good American friends and, first
Festival took place, I had received a cable in which many of the in-
music and talking at great length. He had come with the definite idea
ventured to say: "You cannot condemn your art to silence. Since you
don't wish to leave Prades, would you allow us to come here, a group
occasion to do it." I thought it over for a bit and felt that what he was
1 In 1948 Casals received from America a complete edition ofBacWs works published
of the first volume one can read the following dedication: "To Pablo Casals. From a few
of his friends , colleagues and fervent followers who wish to present this modest token of
their affection, veneration, admiration and gratitude. Signed by Ernst Bloch, Arturo
Toscanini, Paul Hindemith, Bruno Walter, Jascha Heifetz, Arthur Rubinstein, Wanda
of the Conjlent at the foot of the Canigou (one of the high peaks of the
It is in this small town that the Festival has taken place in the last four
years, and where the following artists have appeared: Serkin, Stern,
all European countries and from both Americas, and also of Chinese,
Casals had in his youth and which made him transform a cafe into a concert
The first Festival in 1950, dedicated to Bach, was rehearsed for about
six weeks, and in the course of thirteen concerts the six Brandenburg
Concerti were played and conducted by Casals, the Six Suites for Solo
'Cello were played by him, and also the Clavier and Violin Concerti.
The concerts took place in the parish church of the little town and
but no applause for three weeks, until after the last Cantata, when the
Bishops of Saint Flour and ofPerpignan gave the signal to applaud and it
The 1951 Festival took place in the great courtyard of the Palace of
the Majorca and Perpignan Kings, in Perpignan. But in 1952 and 1953
they took place in the marvellous abbey of St. Michel de Cuxa, two
kilometres outside Prades, and those who had the privilege of being there
will never forget it. The splendour of the building, dating from the Xth
XIII
been said before, the refusals give him a painful feeling of renunciation. Fairly
recently he had to dedine the invitation to conduct a concert in Liege on the
conduct the St. Matthew Passion in Zurich; then a concert in Paris to cele-
brate the centenary of Francois Arago; he was asked to take part in the B.B.C.*s
for its golden jubilee, to give a concert at the Chateau de Versailles at the
When he was asked to go to Liege for the Ysaye ceremony his first
reaction was to accept, but after, he had to decline. "No, I cannot! There
If Casals had not chosen the " Voice of Silence" the concerts he could give
little old man who, fifty years ago, was already considered one of the greatest
artists in the world, would raise the frenzied enthusiasm of his audiences, and
it may be that no other artist would have known, now or in the past, such a
glorious twilight.
However, inside the four walls of this little room [which we described in the
Preface) there is another glory, a silent one which every day awaits our great
We have already referred to the time it takes him to deal with his corres-
pondence (in 1951 when he came back from Switzerland, where he had been
for a month and a half, the Prades postman handed to him a packet containing
229
people, but hundreds are from unfortunates who ask for help, advice or a
favour. If one could see, as I have, the patience and the perseverance of Casals
when it is a question of helping even an unknown person, and his joy when
reading his letters [they were piling up on the table). "You are very tired."
"It is true," said Casals, "but there may be someone in distress who
cries for help and has pinned his faint hopes on me. That is more
important than all the Festivals, I think." One day he confided in me alone
and said, "I receive such proofs of affection, and in this room how often
always refused and I don't intend to depart from the line I have taken.
Here we are in the little room. Someone knocks at the door downstairs.
It is an American girl. "I came to Europe to see you," she said to Casals.
"After, I shall go to Africa to see Dr. Schweitzer. Then I shall return to the
United States."
and discussed musical matters with Casals for a long time. Later he received a
letter from them saying that when they got back "all Montserrat gathered
together and everyone, from the Father Superior to the young choir boys,
enquired after you". "In Montserrat," said Casals, "they never ceased to
from people waiting to testify their admiration on the occasion of his seventy-
fifth birthday (which took place on December 29th, 1951)- On the first page
there was a very affectionate message from Queen Elisabeth. Her daughter, the
ex-Queen Marie-fose of Italy, came to Prades soon after the end of the 1951
Festival, when Casals and Serkin played a Beethoven Sonata for her. Soon
after this she wrote to Casals saying "Have courage, dear friend. I also know
given in Tokio (the men on one side and the women on the other) , with the
discs of the Prades Bach Festival. The pages of the album were classified by
towns in Japan. At the top of one page was the name "Hiroshima".
the bottom there was an inscription in Japanese and English which said,
" We were born after the time of the Hiroshima atom bomb and already we are
hundred and twenty ' cellists from all countries took part in the concert. One
had never seen such a number of 'cellists in an orchestra before! Tickets were
sold out two days after the announcement, and some people paid as much as ten
times their value to the retailers who had bought them as a speculation.
We had also mentioned that Schweitzer, who was staying at Gunsbach,
at the time, came to the Zurich concert. One of the items on the programme,
played by all the 'cellists, was Les Rois Mages, a fragment of Casals'
that what he had just heard belonged to the great music of all time.
Lambarene and the hermit of Prades looking very pensive. "This photo-
graph was taken at Zurich at the time of this concert?" "Yes: after the con-
great friend said 'It is better to create than to protest'/ 'And why not
of creation and protest, and further, protest can be the most arduous
creation and the most exacting.' 'In any case,' said Schweitzer, 'I accept
everything you do since I know the moral motives which inspire you.'
interpretation of Bach. The profits of these lectures and those of the preceding
concert in Zurich were used for the construction of a Spanish Pavilion at the
232 CONVERSATIONS WITH CASALS
pleasure of talking with the Alpine guides. "What men they are and what
devotion they practise." They gave him a tremendous welcome and con-
ferred on him the title of First honorary guide of Zermatt. Here is the text
Casals'. (Casals thanked them by giving them a private recital.) "In the
year 1952 the Corporation of the Zermatt guides, through its President, has
who has given to this little place a special lustre by holding this musical course.
Pablo Casals has thus shown to all artists the inspiration to be found in our
mountains. He has been the guide par excellence, who leads to the highest
summits. We are proud to add him to our membership" The artists who
written by an Italian J cellist, which he sent to Casals, and which shows that
the atmosphere of the course was better than any description of it: "Days go
by, the spark which you have lit seems gradually to take hold of all our ideas,
thought had nearly achieved a definite shape has acquired new meaning; the
humblest problems of the ' * cello from general principles to the smallest details
of this performance. With an instrument like the ' cello, or with a prayer, or by
any other means, beauty can be evoked. This conviction, this faith, must be
continually with us, even if, as it sometimes happens, a feeling of solitude and
shortcoming takes hold of us, and if, when we play, we almost get to hate the
sound of our instrument. You have given us the strength to fight against this
solitude — you have given us the joy of a Victory, a joy which we had lost and
pation in his work for charity. "In the name of the Broadcasting organisations
and Saarbrucken, we ask you to do us the great honour of playing for four or
five minutes and making an appeal for children, in Catalan, to the millions
given in Lausanne every year before Christmas, is the only one re-trans-
invitation after he had made sure that Spanish children would get their share of
Pastorale for Organ and the Carol from the Catalan Folk-tune El Cant
dels Ocells.
From his little room, on the evening of December 22nd, Casals listened
to the broadcast. As the last notes of the Catalan carol faded out he heard the
announcers one after the other: "This is Lausanne. The bells of our City will
now be rung to thank you, Pablo Casals. . . . This is Rome, the bells of our
City will now be rung to thank you, Pablo Casals. . . . This is Paris. . . . This
The American writer, Max Eastman, has said of Pablo Casals: "No
other man has been able to combine in this way musical genius with moral
Sometimes Casals will say to an intimate friend, "I will show you my
treasures." He then opens a large and beautiful box, inlaid with ivory, which
once belonged to Franciso Pizarro, the conqueror of Peru. First he brings out
a small piece of parchment with a few notes traced on the stave. "From
Beethoven, with his own hand," he says. "The very first sketch of the
Zurich. One does not find these notes in the Symphony, we all know.
quartet, one of a Brahms quartet, and so on. "All these," he said, "and all
the musical treasures, pictures and documents I have at Sant Salvador,
age, but we have not forgotten what he said one day when he didntfeel well.
"I am now prepared for everything! Nothing that happens will sur-
prise me. The pursuit of music and love for my neighbours have been
inseparable with me, and if the first has given me the purest and most
exalted joys, the second has brought me peace of mind, even in the
INDEX
Ainaud, 36
Aldrich, 100
Amelia, Queen, 39
Amsterdam, 106
Conservatoire, 57
Antwerp, 211
d'Aranyi, Jelly, 94
Argeles, 215
Argentina, 38, 61
Azcarate, 32
Balcells, Joan, 74
Balfour, Earl, 49
30, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, 58, 64,
66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 77, 78, 80, 81,
213, 214
Exposition Internationale, 21
Olympic Theatre, 90
Theatre Lyrique, 26
Bartsh, 170
(n.), 103
230 233
Benet, 25
157, 217
Philharmonic Orchestra, 62
Billthoven, 107
Blum, Leon, 44
Boccaccio, 57
Bonn, 105
Bordas, 31
Borotra, Jean, 76
Boston, 54
Bourcherit, 44
Brandoucoff, 92
Brassin, 105
Brazil, 61
Brenoteau, 42
Breton, Tomas, 31, 33, 39, 66
Briand, Aristide, 44
Brighton, 222
235
236
INDEX
Bruckner, 157-8
Buenos Aires, 20
Buxtehude, 130
Cahuzac, 228
Cambo, 164
Carlistes, 19
Carlos, King, 39
Artur, 16
Casella, 45
Castelar, Emilio, 32
Cervantes, 120
Chaliapine, Boris, 56
Cherubini, 109
Chester, 222
Chevillard, Camille, 93
Chrysander, 131
Cincinnati, 59
Clemenceau, 44—5
Cochet, 76
Colombia, 18
Copenhagen, 157
Corelli, 57
Coue, 200
Cremona, 206
Cuba, 39, 61
Dante, 57
Davies, Fanny, 94
Debussy, 67, 101, 138, 140, 159, 167,
168, 176
Decugis, 76
Delange, 57-8
Diaz, Fernando, 33
Diaz, Porfirip, 61
Dollfuss, 64
Donizetti, 169
Dorian, Menard, 44
Diisseldorf, 104
(n.)
Eisenberg, Maurice, 48
El Greco, 33
230
Encyclopaedia Britannica, 98
Engels, 29
Espinho, 39
INDEX
237
Fern (the brothers), 105
Fetis, 33
Figueras, 102
fiamenco y 163
Fluvia, 26
"Follet", 225
Forkel, 123
Fournier, Pierre, 48
Franck, Cesar, 96, 97, 176, 205
Frescobaldi, 57
FruiciotiSy 90
Gendron, fidouard, 65
Geneva, 142
Gestapo, 216
Gounod, 145
Grumiaux, 228
Guerrero, Maria, 33
Hague, The, 57
192
Havana, 69
qu.: 176
Hiroshima, 231
180
Huberman, 178
Hugo, Jean, 44
Hure, Jean, 45
163, 172
Isabel, Infanta, 30
Japan, 65
Joachim Society, 50
Kingman, Russell, 76
Kleiber, 84
206; qu.: 10
Laberte, 207
Leimer, 194
Lenormand, Rend, 44
Levenson, 208
238
INDEX
89
Liege, 229
Lisbon, 39
Lyons, 216
Macia, Francesc, 80
Mackay, 52
Marines, David, 54
Manns, Auguste, 48
Maquis, 217
Maragall, 22
Marcha Real, 78
Marini, 228
Marseilles, 216
Marx, Karl, 29
Massenet, 162
Matines, 19
Maura, 32
Mednikoff, Nicholas, 65
148-9, 191
Mengelberg, Rudolf, 66
Mengelbert, 93
qu.: 12
Michaelangelo, 120
Miklas, President, 64
Milan, 69
Mirecourt, 207
Molnar, 60
Montpellier, 224
Montreux, 53
Mottl, 66
Moussorgsky, 122
Mozart, Leopold, 64
Mugnone, 38—9
Murillo, 148
Mussolini, 212
Nantes, 208
Newman, Philip, 86
Metropolitan Museum, 54
Norway, 107
Nottingham, 222
Observer, The, 103, 192
Oxford, 224
Palacio de Oriente, 79
Palestrina, 132
Paris, 33, 35, 36, 37, 40, 41, 42, 43, 45,
46, 48, 57, 58, 59, 62, 65, 66, 67, 69,
INDEX
239
Shepherds), 18
Pau de la Cent a, 15
Pedrell, 162-3
Pena, Joaquim, 70
Philadelphia, 54
Philip V, King, 77
Philippine Islands, 39
Pichot, 214
Pierrefonds, 43
Pincherle, Marc, 204; qu.: 205
Pi y Margall, 19, 32
Pleyel, 95
Plymouth, 97
Poland, 154
Polit, 58
Popper, David, 60
Portugal, 39, 41
Preller, 105
Progressists , 19
Pugno, 47, 93
Raphael, 154
Renan, 229
Richmond (Virginia), 54
Richter, Hans, 49, 66, 84, 88, 98, 155
Rio de Janeiro, 86
Rivesalte, 215
Robledo, Remero, 32
Rodoreda, 24
Rohrau, 63, 64
131, 132
101, 104-8
Roosevelt, Theodore, 52
Rossini, 130
Rubio, 28
211
Saarbrucken, 232
Sabadell, 91
Sagasta, 32
Salmeron, 32
Sandoz, Dr., 45, 46
San Francisco, 51
San Sebastian, 33
Sargent, 50
Scario, 105
Scarlatti, 57
Schalk, 63
Scherchen, Herman, 86
192, 204
Schuschnigg, 64
Schutz, 130
128
Scriabin, 56
240
INDEX
Septfonds, 215
230
Sheffield, 222
Sibelius, 107
Silvela, 32
Smolens, 61
Staad, 219
156, 167
Subirana, Panchita, 76
Suggia, Guilhermina, 96
Szanto, Tivada, 95
Szel, Pierre, 66
Tabuteau, 228
Taft, Mrs., 53
Tartini, 57
Taubman, Howard; qu.: 87
Thomas, Albert, 44
Thompson, 196
Titian, 33
Tokio, 231
Toliansky, 60
Tortelier, 228
227 (n.)
82, 162
Tribschen, 157
Trieste, 232
trigones , 60
Uruguay, 61
Vainar, Leo, 93
Valencia, 39
Van Gogh, 96
Verbena de la Paloma, 31
Verd, Jean, 65
Verdi, 130
Verlaine, Paul, 45
Vernet, 215
Vidal, Felip, 71
Vidal-Quadres, 70
Vilna, 54
Viviani, 44
Vuillermoz, £mile; qu.: 133, 136, 138,
Wale-Wale, 52
227(n.);qu.: 12
Warsaw, 53
Washington, 165
Weingartner, Felix, 66
Wilhelmina, Queen, 57
Zapatistas, 61
Zuloaga, 45
231, 233
Date Due
NOV 2 1 '57
i
Nnv i *
4nCf%
nrc o s 19
77
Library Bureau Cat. No. 1137
927.82 C27c
MUSIC
Casals, Pablo
MIA**
//y