The Deobandi Movement.

The reasons behind its success.

[Hassan Ilyas] Ghamidi Sahib, we keep

discussing different topics with you.

You also gave lectures in Australia on

the different religious movements,

which arose in the past,

what was the background of these,

and their features as well.

One very prominent movement which

we find in the religious field,

that gave birth to many big,

great, genius scholars,

it is the Deoband movement.

About this movement, how do you see it?

The way movements become

successful, proceed further,

how do view it through that angle?

And the influence of this

movement on the society,

at the global level,

how do you analyse that?

[Javed Ahmad Ghamidi] If I ask

me, I will say that

it is the biggest religious movement of

our times or the adjacent times to ours,

[Hassan] Okay!

[Ghamidi] We have seen the

Ikhwan movement also,

Jama't-e Islami movement also,

and many other movements especially

that have arose in the past 100-150 years.

In the times of degradation of Muslims,

you cannot find a movement greater

than this in the whole Islamic world!

[Hassan] Okay!
[Ghamidi] And in terms of
its influence also,

it is a highly extraordinary movement!

It is known that in the subcontinent,

the British rule had been established.

Prior to that, more or less for

around a thousand years,

the power of Muslims had

been established here.

In that reign also, religious institutions

of Muslims were also established,

big, great scholars were also born,

and also, activities of writing,

research kept on going through them.

But when the English came,

and they started building up

a new educational system,

a new social order

and a new political order,

then Muslims reacted on the ethical

as well as the on the religious grounds.

It is not the moment to explain the

history of that reaction at this time.

What Fatawa (legal opinions) were given?

How was it tried to determine

the status of Hindustan?

These are Dar-ul-Islam, Dar-ul-Harb,

what has their nature now become?

And then the way, Sir Syed turned around

the masses in the Revolt of 1857,

whatever results came out, you understand

all these, in the background,

so these were the people who thought

of this as a solution of the issue,

that if we have to keep intact our

culture, our tradition, our religion,

so the only way to do it,

is that we take care of the religious
education in the highest regard.

The resources had finished.

The endowments of the Muslims of the

old times were not the same now.

After the English had come, the gifts,

endearments that were

received from the kings,

or the scholars were patronised, there

were no chances left to do these.

So this, we find some

examples before this also

but on such a scale, it had

happened for the first time

that an appeal was made to the Muslim

public that they make the arrangements,

and the people who strived for that,

you look at Moulana Mahmood

ul Hassan among these,

look at Moulana Rashid

Ahmad Gangohi among these,

look at Moulana Qasim Nanautavi,

they are highly exceptional people.

That's to say, in terms of their life,

in terms of their character,

in terms of their scholarship.

Since the scholarship has come

under discussion here,

as I have mentioned earlier,

that there are two big traditions

of scholarship among us.

One tradition is that what

you call Salafi tradition.

Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Qayim can be

named among the great people in it,

and there is one tradition

which came into existence

under the influence of philosophy

and Tassawuf (Sufism).

The primary name among these can be said

to be Imam Ghazali.

After him, Shaikh-e-Akbar Mohi-ud-Din

Ibn-e-Arabi is also a great name,

and many other people were born in it.

In the subcontinent, if anyone

holds the rank of Imam-ul Hind,

then, it is Shah Waliullah.

So, the religious work done by

the religious school of Shah Sahib,

the intellectual, scholarly background

which got created due to that,

take that too under consideration,

due to Imam Ghazali, the Sufi temperament

and the Sufi interpretation which

became common among the Muslims,

understand that also in the background,

and along with that, as wardens

of the tradition of our scholarship,

i.e. our ancient scholarship,

these people laid the foundation

of this religious school.

I am not discussing here about

what is right, what is wrong

in their point of view.

You also know, people also know that

what are my criticisms against Tasawwuf,

or our ancient scholarship or

our Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence),

what are the criticisms against these.

That is not the topic right now.

But precisely that tradition,

that's to say, if I illustrate that

tradition in the words of Allama Iqbal,

then Islam began with Faith,

then it transformed into the thought,
i.e., as a religious scholarship,

and then it changed into Gnosis!

That's to say, philosophical theology,

philosophy, Tassawuf,

due to influence of all these facets,

a collective interpretation which

is formed, keep that in mind.

So, these people are

the flagbearers of it.

and they kept all these three

facets under consideration,

i.e. one such religious

school is founded,

in which great scholars of

this interpretation are born.

It is, of course, intended to create

great scholars only.

Obviously, then, people

of every caliber get involved

and they learn according to

their respective capabilities,

and there is no doubt that they

have created many great scholars.

There is Moulana Husain Ahmad Madani

or Moulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi

or Moulana Anwar Shah Kashmiri

or Moulana Badr Alam Meerathi.

These are not men of ordinary caliber!

So, I have counted a few names among them.

Very great people were created by them,

who followed that interpretation

and understood the religion

in exactly the same way.

Along with that, the other aspect was

to try out those ways to inculcate

piety and sincerity among the people,
which were found
through the Sufi tradition.

Therefore, they tried

to make a combination

of a Sufi lodge and

a religious institution.

In the first stage, we observe that

the big, great heros, on the one hand,

had interest in the educational sciences.

They solve scholarly puzzles.

They are teaching Adab (literature),

Hadith, Fiqh (jurisprudence),

and on the other, for instance,

there is Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki,

or afterwards, there is Moulana Raipuri

or similarly, with other

great scholars also,

there is a sort of relationship

of being guided by them.

They learn this path from them,

and especially, learn how to cross the

stages of Tariqat (spiritual path).

So, this is the other aspect also,

and the third aspect is that the people,

who themselves laid the foundation

of the religious institution,

they were Mujahideen (engaged in Jihad)

in terms of their background.

The first task they did or

their predecessors did,

it was to oust the British rule from here

and that Jihad also took place during it.

The movement of Syed Ahmad Shaheed

was also present in the background.

So, due to this reason, he himself,

in terms of his individuality,

in terms of his personality,

in terms of his behaviour,

was also founder of a political movement

in Hindustan, among the scholars.

Just as Mahatma Gandhi took an initiative

or later on, a movement

of Muslim League arose.

So, this also in its own way,

in fact, it can be said that

the movement of scholars

was much older than these other two

movements.

They were the first ones who

stood up for this struggle!

So, in this way, all these three

dimensions were present in it,

and if you notice carefully, the forms of

these three dimensions kept on changing,

and then it got manifested,

i.e. it is the spirit of Jihad,

which afterwards led (the movement)

to the government of Taliban,

it got created from here only.

That concept of the Khanqah,

it achieved a new form

and with highly reasoning insight,

they formed a big order of

Tablighi Jama't.

It can said that it is a mobile Khanqah.

You receive that training

from it while being mobile,

which people, in some period,

used to get by visiting the Sufi lodges,

and the people who came out from there,

you see, they established religious

institutions in every nook and corner,

Deoband, in a way, gained status of

being a mother (of these institutions),
Darul Uloom Deoband, many schools
came into existence through its womb,

and these are in thousands

of numbers presently.

Its influences spread worldwide,

its alumni went all over the world.

They accomplished highly exceptional

tasks in the different sciences and arts,

that's to say, if time permits,

then it can be counted

that what tasks were

accomplished in Hadith,

what service was rendered

in Sufi discourse.

Similarly, what service was

rendered in philosophical theology,

or regarding subjects
of religious schools,

there is Mantiq (Logic), Fiqh,

other subjects,

what services were offered in these.

So, it is a highly
exceptional contribution

of this movement in its entirety,

if you notice carefully,

and then within it only, as it was also

a political movement by its nature,

Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind was formed within it.

At one instant, Moulana Dawood Ghaznavi,

who was a great scholar of Ahl-e Hadith,

told Moulana Abul Kalam Azad

that in our Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind,

there are Deobandi scholars everywhere,

that's to say, mostly, scholars

other than that, are very few.

So, he replied, as Deoband has fostered

scholars, obviously it will be them only.

So, if you look in this respect, Jamiat

Ulama-e-Hind, in the politics of Hindustan
and uptil now, in the
politics of Pakistan,

it is present as a strong active force.

It is present even now!

So, it is a very long history,

in which it has maintained

its status, its solemnity, its way,

[Hassan] Okay!

[Ghamidi] And whatever objections

you want to raise,

you will raise against the thought,

against their strategies, but to raise

a movement on such a collective basis,

you will find no other such

example in the Islamic world!

That's why I say, it is the greatest

religious movement of our times!

The most influential religious movement!

Objections can be raised

against its thought,

you cannot deny the

nature of this movement,

its Jihad, its comprehensivenes

and its infleunces.

[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi Sahib,

I want to ask this,

I want to understand, if we see in social

terms, any narrative in the society,

even today, different statements,

narratives keep on appearing,

you have your own point of view,

a complete school of thought.

If anyone, among the knowledgeable people,

wants to promote his ideas in the society,

he wants to reach to grass roots level,

to transform his intellectual

premises into political statements,
to promote his point of
view at global level,

people should adopt it as their

own point of view and statement.

So, the steps you need

to take, for instance,

you want your ideas to

penetrate into the society,

so the first step for that, e.g.

if we keep the Deobandi Movement in view,

it is a successful movement,
you yourself stated that.

So, how did it begin?

i.e. in the beginning, do you have to

create intellectuals of your thought?

Then after it, will they directly

address the society?

What is the procedure behind

the success of the movements?

[Ghamidi] It is exactly the same

which Deoband had adopted!

It is teaching and learning!

That's to say, you prepare the people.

When people will understand the religion,

in the way in which something ought to be

understood, in its essence,

they will understand it in the

context of its complete tradition,

and in terms of scholarship, they

will understand it with maturity.

Such type of people will be born.

So, the capabilities of

people are then distinct.

There are such people who

are interested in politics,

there are such people who completely

become scholars who teach in madrassas,
there are such people also,

who are interested in the education,

training of the people,

or in the betterment of the common masses.

So, different people will work

acccording to their capabilities.

The fundamental thought remains the same.

That's to say,
according to his capability,

every scholar will engage in tasks

of writing and research as well.

But if you want it to make

a movement or Tehreek,

then there is only one methodology,

and it is teaching and learning!

Rest of the things will

be created through it.

[Hassan] Okay!

[Ghamidi] Jamiat Ulama-e-Hind

also came into existence

as a consequence of
that teaching and learning.

In the same way, the Jihadi movements,

you witnessed afterwards,

these also were created as a result of it.

Tablighi Jama't was also

born from its womb only.

So, all of these activities will appear as

per their respective capabilities.

But the original methodology

or the original way,

the original path is teaching

and learning only.

Now, the modes, means

of the teaching and learning,

these will keep changing in the world.

In the current times, the means

that have been created,

you see major, big universities are

moving towards online education.

So, its status is that of the means.

The period you belong to, you take

benefits of the means prevalent then.

i.e. at one time Salah was

offered by keeping Mukabbirs

Now, loudspeakers are used.

So, it is related to the means.

The fundamental point is that

research, writing, teaching, and

learning is precisely the job of scholars.

To organise these, to give it a

regular form of the institution,

obviously its effects will

gradually become extraordinary,

and if you do not want to do anything,

and you want to spend life alone only,

still you will do the same job!

[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi Sahib!

One more aspect, I want

to understand from you

you mentioned that the traditional

interpretation of the religion,

which is an order of thought of our Salaf,

a tradition to understand the religion,

that is being promoted worldwide.

Scholars are born, in Egypt and Syria

also, in Marrakesh and Iran also.

But I want to know that when

this Deobandi movement carried

forward that tradition of scholarship,

so, when you say that great

people were born through it,

so that great person,

it is an obvious fact,

he will give a new presentation

to that scholarship,

give it a new diction, it will also

have some reasoning insight.

So, do you think that this scholarship

of Salaf which was prevalent,

Deobandi scholars provided

it a new presentation, new idiom,

new philosophical theology, new structure,

to prove it to be relevant to the society?

[Ghamidi] This tradition had

precisely begun with Shah Waliullah.

The work of Shah Sahib himself, is

based on the observational insights,

and the scholars of Deoband are quite

often highly influenced by him,

they have, in a way, gained inspiration

through that school of thought only.

So, among them also, you will

witness all these influences.

But some concepts were defined,

and when you define some concepts,

then, it also leads to some consequences.

One is that Taqlid was accepted as a

principle,

a particular connection to Hanafi Fiqh

was given the utmost regard,

and opinions of other

leaders have reached us,

they have said that they

had spent their entire life

following Imam Abu Hanifa's point of view

or in the defense of his school of thought

So, it was a general inclination of all,

and the second concept was that,

what is the modern world?

What are its sciences?
What can be the effects of it?

Where did that old cultural

edifice disappear?

The ancient sciences among us, there

was philosophy, Greek philosophy,

in the same way, there was philosophical

theology, how much relevant is it now?

What connection of Fiqh

will now be established?

How will it be relevant?

It is, anyway, human work.

They completely ignored

all these concepts.

[Hassan] Okay!

[Ghamidi] And holding

that old tradition firmly,

they induced this huge

task, a big movement,

and this is the aspect which we,

we must say, people like us,

keep in view, to criticize them also,

considering their complete

honour and respect,

we try to say that a

mistake was committed here.