> Subject: dvaita vs advaita > I have a very basic question to this very learned group.

could someone please

> tell us what exactly does dvaita and advaitha mean. kanaka One of the central questions concerning
Vedanta philosophers is the relationship of the individual self to the Absolute or Supreme Self. The sole
purpose for this question is to determine the nature of contemplative meditation and to determine whether
moksha, the state of release, is something worth seeking. The Dvaita school, inaugurated by Madhvacharya
(Ananda Tirtha), argues that there is an inherent and absolute five-fold difference in Reality -- between one
soul and another, between the soul and God, between God and matter, between the soul and matter, and
between matter and matter. These differences are not only individuations, but also inherent qualitative
differences, i.e., in its essentially pure state, one individual self is _not_ equal to another in status, but only
in genus. Therefore, there are inherently female jIvas, inherently male jIvas, brahmin jIvas, non-brahmin
jIvas, and this differentiation exists even in liberation. Consequently, any sort of unity, whether it be
mystical or ontological, between the individual self and God is impossible in Dvaita. Hence the term
``Dvaita'' or ``dualism''. Liberation consists of experiencing one's essential nature in parama padam as a
reflection of God's glory. Such liberation is achieved through bhakti or loving devotion. The Advaita school,
represented in its classical and most powerful form by Sankaracharya, argues that only the Absolute Self
exists, _and_ all else is false. The universe and our existence as individuals is not _unreal_, mind you, but a
false imposition on a real substrate, the non-dual, undifferentiated principle of consciousness. This is a very
important distinction. Liberation in Advaita Vedanta consists of the realization that individuality is false, and
that one's very essence is the Absolute Self, pure undifferentiated consciousness, one without a second.
Such a realization, which according to Advaita can happen long before death, is achieved after a long period
of introspection on Vedic teachings. At some point, the unity of the non-dual Self reveals itself, upon which
all doubts are shattered and liberation is achieved. In this system, since there is only one, and ultimately
nothing else, the system is called Advaita, or ``non-dualism''. To distinguish it from other forms of Advaita, it
is also called nirvisesha Advaita, or ``non-duality of the Absolute without qualities.'' Visishtadvaita is also an
Advaita, since only God the Absolute, omnipresent Self exists. However, our concept of God refers to that
Supreme Entity which contains all within itself; the entire universe, including all living beings, are
fundamentally real and internally distinguishable from one another.
However, there is only one total reality, as God includes all existence within Its very being. The individual
selfs and the universe exist as God's attributes, since God pervades absolutely everything and gifts these
substances with their reality. In other words, God is the indwelling Self of all, and this ``all'' is real as they
are included in His body. Therefore, Visishtadvaita literally means non-duality of the qualified, since God is
qualified by innumerable glorious attributes, including individual selves and matter. Liberation is eternal
communion and service of God, the supreme, infinite, blissful Absolute. Ramanuja writes that such
liberation is achieved by constant meditation on God's supreme perfections -His omnipresence, His
splendorous forms, His actions in His various manifestations, His existence in the hearts of all creatures, His
nature as the First Cause of All. Such meditation, when practiced with a pure heart and mind and filled with
extreme love, will yield a better and better conception of God in the mind of devotee over time, eventually
leading to recollection of God so vivid it is like sight itself. Such a vision, when practiced to the point of being
unbroken, is the liberating knoweldge spoken of in the Vedas, a result of God's love of His beloved devotee.
Notice the difference in approach of Advaita and Visishtadvaita. The former's conception of the Absolute
has no attributes -hence the discipline of meditation there does not in the end rely on bhakti. The latter has
as its centerpiece a supreme being full of perfections and attributes, so the aspirant has no choice but to
revel in these kalyANa-guNas. From this basic difference in approach we can derive all the other differences
between these schools of Vedanta. Mani P.S. All individual selfs are fundamentally equal and alike in
Visishtadvaita. Ramanuja is emphatic about this. *********************** The philosophy of
visishtadvaita, expounded by Ramanuja, creates harmony between the absolute idealism of advaita and the
theistic pluralism of dvaita. Advaita is based on the scriptural texts that affirm identity between jiva and
abarahman while dvaita quotes the texts that speak of plurality and difference. Ramanuja reconciles the
discord between the two by means of the relational texts which he calls ghataka sruti, thus upholding the
validity of the scriptural texts as a whole. In his view the texts should be interpreted in such a manner that
they do not present a contradiction. His explanation bridges the gap between the abhedha and bhedha
texts.

Brahman of visishtadvaita is synonymous with Narayana, who is the transcendent and imminent reality. The
word Narayana denotes the abode of all beings, naaraanam ayanam, and also that He is in everything,
naaraah ayanam yasya Thus He is not
the mere personal God of a particular religion. Vaishnavism is only apart of visishtadvaita, serving as a
means of attaining the goal.

The key concept of visishtadvaita is the sarira-sariri bhaava, the body-soul relationship between the
universe and Brahman. There are three reals, thathvathraya, namely, Isvara, the Lord, Jiva the individual
soul, and Jagath, the world of insentient beings. They are not separate entities but together they form one
organic whole. This is explained by the concept of body and soul relationship.

Ramanuja defines sarira as �that substance that a spiritual entity can use and support entirely for his own
purpose, and that, in its essence is exclusively subordinate to that entity.� Being the sarira of the Lord, the
universe of sentient and insentient beings stands in an inseparable relation with Him. This relationship,
called aprthaksidhdha, is like that of a substance and its attribute, where the latter cannot exist without the
former as in the example of fire and heat. Brahman is the material as well as the efficient cause of the
universe. Ramnuja cites the sruti text �yatho va imana bhoothaani jaayanthe yena jaathaani jeevanthi
yasmin abhi samvisanthi thadvijijnaasava thadbrahma� (Taitreya up.), �that from which everything
came from, by which everything that is born is sustained and into which everything merges back, know that
to be Brahman.� The causality of Brahman is also ascertained by the text �sadheva soumya idhamagra
aaseeth ekameva advitheeyam; thadhaikshatha bahusyaamprajaayeya, which says that there was sat alone
in the beginning , one only without a second and it willed to become many. This according to Ramanuja
confirms the body-soul relationship between Brahman and the universe. He claims that this is the real
purport of the mahavakya thathvamasi and not the absolute identity as professed by advaita. Everything
existed in Narayana in subtle form before creation and became manifest in gross form after creation.

This concept of sarira-sariri bhava exposes visishtadvaita to the criticism that if the world is the sarira of
Brahman, that is, Narayana, the imperfections of the world will adhere to Brahman. This argument is
refuted by Ramanuja , who says that just as the imperfections of the body of an individual do not affect the
soul, Brahman who is the Self of all, is not contaminated by the imperfections of the universe.

An objection that may arise with respect to the authority of this concept of sarira-sariri bhava is met with by
means of the ghataka sruti texts like the one which says �He who dwells in this earth and within the earth,
whom the earth does not know, whose body the earth is, who rules the earth from within, He is thy self, the
ruler within and immortal.� There are several texts citing Brahman as the Self of everything naming the
elements and the individual soul separately as the sarira of Brahman.
Brahman of visishtadvaita is not nirguna without attributes but possesses innumerable auspicious qualities,
ananthakalyanagunavisishta, which are not adventitious but form His svarupa. The scriptural definition of
Brahman as Sathyam, Jnanam, Anantham is explained by Ramanuja in accordance with the principle of
Samanadhikaranya, coordinate predication, according to which several terms are applicable to an entity on
different grounds. For instance, in the expression shyamo yuva Devadattah, Devadatta is a dark young man,
the adjectives shyama and yuva denote the same entity, Devadatta. Similarly the epithets Sathyam, jnanam,
anantham denote the same Brahman, sathyam implying absolutely unconditional existence, jnanam, non-
contracted knowledge and anantham implies that Brahman is not limited by space,time and form. Jiva in
visishtadvaita is real and so is Jagath. The jnana of jiva is contracted due to karma, born of ajnana. W hen
the ajnana is removed by jnana as a result of bhakthi, jiva regains its original state of liberation when its
jnana becomes infinite.

Bhakthi is the sole means of liberation in visishtadvaita. Bhakthi and Prapaththi are the two wings with
which the jiva ascends to the realm of the Lord to become one with Him. Karmayoga and jnanayoga are the
natural outcome of bhakthi and prappaththi, total surrender, as the devotee acquires the knowledge that
the Lord is the inner self of whom he himself is the sarira. The devotee realizes his own state as sesha,
dependent on, adheya, being supporteby, and niyaamya, being led by the Lord, who is the Seshi, Master,
Adhaara, Support and niyantha, the one who leads him. As a result the jiva leads his life as an instrument of
the Lord, acquiring viveka and vairagya, offering all his thought, word, and deed to the feet of the Lord. He
sees the Lord in everything and everything in Him. This is the unity in diversity achieved through devotion.

The principles of the philosophy of visishtadvaita are expounded in the interpretation of the Brahmasuthra
by Ramanuja. His commentary on Brahmasuthra, otherwise known as Vedanta suthra, is his monumental
work, the Sribhaashya. Ramanuja establishes the tenets of visishtadvaita firmly in Sribhaashya while refuting
the views of other schools of philosophy effectively. I have given a detailed explanation of visishtadvaita
which should clear the doubts regarding the relation between Isvara and jeeva and the purport of the text
Tattvamasi. I would be glad to answer any other questions on this topic.

************************* R. >> >> >> Dinakaran: One of my good friends who is a member of the Cyber
Madhava Sangha says he has a simple definition which proves that Dvaita is more `down to earth'. He says
that there has to be two entities: Bhagawan and the Bhakta or
>> the Seeker and the Sought. If God is within us, how can we seek him, >> he asks (in the Dvaita mailing
list). >> I was unable to post a proper reply. Can anyone help me out? >Dear Sri Dinakaran and all
bhAgawatas, > >PraNAmam. Adiyen is by no stretch of imagination a shAstrajna. But here is >adiyen's
attempt at your question. > >Nowhere does visishtAdwaita claim that there is only one entity in the sense
>the question has been posed (bhagawAn vs. bhakta). Infact, RAmanuja accepts >not two but six dravyas or
perceivable objects: Iswara, jeeva, kAla, >prakrti, nithyavibhuti, and dharmabhuta jnana. All of these
dravyas are >REAL, DISTINCT, and ETERNAL, and there is no doubt that there always is a >seeker and the
sought (BhagawAn). > >Let us take the following two dravyas: Iswara and jeeva. Iswara is by >nature
Satyam, Jnanam, and Anantam. Satyam means nirupAdhika satta yogi ->i.e., He exists without an upAdhi. He
is Jnanaswaroopam. He is also >Anantam or vibhu -- He is undivided by time, space, and matter. The jeeva
>on the other hand derives its existence (satyatvam) from the Brahman. In >other words, it exists because
of that Brahman. It is monadic (aNu), which >is the opposite of vibhu. Also it is impenetrable and
undestroyable. > >Only when it comes to the ORGANIC RELATIONSHIP between the various dravyas >does
RAmanuja say it is visishtasya advaitam. What does this mean? Again, >for purposes of our discussion, we
will just take Iswara and jeeva into >consideration and ignore the other four dravyas. The relationship is that
>of a sareeri/sareera -- the soul/the ensouled; it is that of an >AdhAra/Adheya -- supporter/supported, etc,
etc. In other words, the jeeva >derives its existence from that primal existence -- Brahman. It is >supported
by Him and exists for His sole pleasure and purpose. The Brahman >alone is the parama Bhokta. > >Now,
with regard to the first question, here is the reply :- Why should the >sareeri/sareera relationship conflict
with the swAmi/bhrtya relationship or >the sought/seeker relationship, or any other relationship? All of
these >relationships have distinct meanings. Secondly, the statements "God is >within us" and "God is
controlling us from within" do not mean that God >literally exists within the precincts of the jeeva itself. All
it means is >that the jeeva's very existence is due to that Brahman, and He controls >every aspect of its
existence as a master, as a supporter, as a soul, etc. >So, the words "within" and "inside" should not be
taken to mean what they >mean in our daily life scenarios. > >To summarize, the organic relationship of
unity (advaita) between Iswara and >all the other dravyas does not in any way conflict the sought/seeker
>relationship. Infact, it strengthens it many fold. Because, if you the >seeker come to know that you are
linked inseparably with the seeker and >exist solely because of Him and for Him, your sought/seeker
relationship >attains a different level of perception. You now realize that the person >you seek is not just
some great, knowledgeable, strong person far away in >heaven, but rather somebody whose organic
relationship with you is >inseparable, intimate, and existential, and you have NO OTHER choice but to >seek
Him. > >Hope this clarifies. Adiyen hopes that a more knowledgeable person provide >a better explanation
to the question.
> >|| SarvAparAdhAn kshamasva || >|| Sarvam Sri KrishNArpaNamastu || > >Daasan Murali Kadambi

Greetings Greg: Thanks for your questions and thoughts. Ramanuja framework assumes the supremesoul
(Mahavishnu) who controlls the souls that were created by the supreme. Obviously, bureaucratic rules and
regulations are necessary for the ultimate salvation of those souls. Mahavishnu is the ultimate authority
who creates, controlls and dissolves (salvation) those soles. The entire drama of the world and all
happenings are mystic (game) and the reasons are beyond human perception! Bhakti is primary and Karma
is always diverted toward the Lord and Jnana and ultimately salvation becomes the reward! Madhava's
framework is an organized bureaucratic structure where souls occupy positions according to their
qualifications! The real and indestructible Is'wara is the CEO. Souls get promotions and demotions according
to their deeds. In summary, faith becomes much more prominant than logic! I have briefly outlined Advaita,
Dvaita and Vishistadvaita philosophies for the benefit to more than a dozen new comers to the list. I have
also provided WEB sites which discuss these philosophies in greater details. Advaita: According to Sankara,
God is infinitely higher than ourselves and he is also infinitely near to us. He is nearer to us than our hands
and feet. He is the Soul of our souls. He is neither the body, nor the senses, nor the mind nor the ego nor
the intellect. He is the "I" that is none of these and is ever-present witness to all our experiences. He is our
Atman and "He" is Brahman. He is the one Reality beyond which there is none. Sankara's contribution to
philosophy is his blending of the doctrines of Karma and Maya, which culminated in a logical exposition of
the idea of non-dualism. The entire universe consisting of Namarupa, names and forms, is but an
appearance; Brahman, infinite consciousness, is the sole reality. Sankara's philosophy, the essential identity
between Atman and Brahman is called "Advaita." It is a known fact that Sankara was strongly influenced by
Gaudapada, who had great regard for the Buddhist philosophy. It is obvious that Sankara was opposed to
Buddhist thought in general, but unconsciously influenced by some of its tenets. There is an updated
version of the advaita vedAnta FAQ at. Dvaita: Madhvachar's philosophy is "Dvaita". Brahman is Hari or
Visnu definable to an extent by the Vedas. He has a transcendental form, Vyuhas, Incarnations are His parts
and Laksmi is distinct. The qualities of Brahman are it is fully independent, the cause of all causes, supreme
bliss, devoid of false attributes but possesses all qualities. The soul is atomic, it pervades the body by
intelligence, infinite in number, Karta and Bhokta. Creation is the actuation of what is in the womb of matter
and soul by the action of Brahman. The cause of bondage is the divine will of the Supreme and ignorance of
the soul (svarupa). The
process of release is through whole hearted devotion, study of the Vedas and detached karma. The goal is
to gain release from samsara and restoration of one's own individual and gain all powers except creation
and there is no return. The released souls rise to the nature of God and never to identify with Him. They
never lose their individuality, they are only released from the bondage of samsara. In summary, Visnu is the
only supreme being; and Bhakti is the primary essential for liberation. Madhvacarya believed that Sankara's
philosophy was a disguised variety of Buddhism and was vehemently objected to Advaita: it seemed to him
presumptuous for the individual soul to claim identity with Brahman. (See the Dwaita home page using the
link under vedanta) http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1415/index1.html Visishtadvaita: Ramanuja's
philosophy is "Visishtadvaita" and has the following features: Brahman is not nirguna but saguna, that is, it
is not impersonal but a personality endowed with all the superior qualities that we know of, like knowledge,
power and love. The Upanishads, when they declare the nirguna nature of Brahman, only deny certain
lower qualities and do not deny its every quality. The universe and individual souls are also eternal, but they
exist as the body of God, as it were. In other words, God, souls and matter together form an inseparable
unity which is one and has no second. In this sense ultimate reality is indeed one. But the distinction
between God, souls and matter must ever remain. See the web page: http://www.best.com/~mani/sv.html

Just a short visit - Soul in Ramanuja is what Ram wrote - it is a suukshma - taken to mean very sub atomic -
while Sankara interprets it the same word as subtle. It is a chaitanya vastu - meaning a principle that has the
capacity to know. In a physical body which is matter, soul is there and inside the soul is the paramaatma
soul too - supreme soul like- sutre maNi ganaa iva - like a thread supporting the necklace. In Ramanuja and
even in Madwa's philosophy there are three truths - Jeeva satyam, Jagat satyam and Paramaatma satyam.
Permanence of Jeeva or individual souls, permanence of the world, and the Lord, paramaatma, or supreme
atma. Paramaatma is Naaraayana or Vishnu, pervades everything but different any thing else. The universe
is like supreme body of the Lord, which is made up of individual souls and matter, He is the essential Soul of
the universal body. He is the total purusha. Creation is his leela or play. The souls suffer because of their
ignorance of the paramaatma and in the process get entangled with Maya or prakriti. Without his grace,
one cannot overcome the maaya. Surrenderence is the only means. JNaana and Karma are vehicles that
help to develop the Bhakti needed one to surrender. Hari Om!

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