.Cioffi Interview Ihab Hassan
.Cioffi Interview Ihab Hassan
.Cioffi Interview Ihab Hassan
Postmodernism, Etc.:*
an Interview with Ihab Hassan
by Frank L. Cioffi
Princeton University
I first met Ihab Hassan in 1982, when I participated in his NEH Summer Seminar,
“Modernism, Postmodernism, and the Question of the Text.” It was there that
I discovered Hassan was more than just a writer and critic; he was a teacher of
extraordinary ability and power. In the intervening years we have kept in touch, and
I find I have been influenced as much by Hassan’s pedagogy and stance as by his
writings.
The following interview was assembled from November, 1998, through January,
1999, and done by telephone, e-mail, and postal mail.
Your major works of criticism that engage the idea of the postmodern--
The Dismemberment of Orpheus, Paracriticisms, The Right Promethean
Fire, The Postmodern Turn, and many essays--have had an enormous
impact on literary culture and theory. Can you briefly characterize and
account for this impact?
HASSAN: No, I didn’t coin the term. Some claim that a British painter
called John Watkins Chapman used the term casually in the 1870s. Since
then, Federico de Onis, Bernard Smith, Dudley Fitts, Arnold Toynbee,
Charles Olson, Irving Howe, and Harry Levin have all used the term
variously--with diverse meanings and degrees of insistence--before I did.
But I guess I did stick with the term, and I did try to clarify for myself an
emergent movement.
Now, as you know, for some critics like Harold Bloom, Romanticism
has never ended--we are all just “belated” Romantics, like himself. What is
clearer to me, however, is that we have projected the ironies and insecurities
and indeterminacies of Postmodernism back onto Romanticism; we have
reinvented the Romantics into our own image (which, incidentally, is the
other side of the “anxiety of influence”--I mean absorption, assimilation).
HASSAN: Well, yes and no. I accept the instability of the term in the
age of hype and media. I accept its labile, shifting, conflictual character, in a
time of ideological wars. And, increasingly, I ignore it because my own
interests have drifted away from it toward the possibilities of a spirituality
that addresses all the issues of the postmodern turn.
This said, I still remind myself that when Charles Jencks talks about
postmodern architecture or Fredric Jameson about the “cultural logic of late
capitalism,” something real, not just hyperreal, is being discussed.
Now, this table proved very popular, especially with those who wished
to criticize it. Invariably, they all ignored my explicit caveat: that “the
dichotomies this table represents remain insecure, equivocal. For differences
shift, defer, even collapse; concepts in any one vertical column are not all
equivalent; and inversions and exceptions, in both modernism and
postmodernism, abound.” They also ignored earlier statements, going back
to 1971, that Modernism does not suddenly cease so that Postmodernism
may begin: they now coexist--in effect, I was saying that Postmodernism
lies deeply within the body of Modernism (in “POSTmodernISM: A
Paracritical Bibliography”).
Yes, relativism offers the illusion of both innocence and freedom. And
have you noticed that relativism is usually invoked by someone about to
lose an argument?
How do you think, though, that “relativism” became yoked with “post-
modern”? Do you think there is some logical connective between the
kind of art you identified as postmodern and a radically relativist
position?
How would you characterize literary criticism and theory of the last
fifty years or so?
HASSAN: Well, that’s a topic for a book, indeed for a library of books,
written and burned. Let me read you, however, a mildly satirical, but I think
relevant, passage in an article I have recently published, “Queries for
Postcolonial Studies,” a topic I usually shun:
Much has been already said about the Common Reader, Public
Criticism, the Obscure (and Unpatriotic) Academy. Let me just say that
I consider certain prose styles in American academe to be dead ends. This is
not an isolated perception, and I am heartened by the good, working prose
I find, for instance, in the MLA’s Profession 1998, also in periodicals as
various as Philosophy and Literature, Salmagundi, the Georgia Review.
I am heartened by the Bad Writing Contest, sponsored by Denis Dutton and
Patrick Henry, editors of Philosophy and Literature, which award prizes to
the most hideously hilarious academic prose every year. But I am not
cheered when some graduate student tells me that bad prose is “actually
politically correct.”
Why are the humanities in disarray? Are they really in disarray? Or are
they simply conflicted and impoverished? And why should we “save them,”
and how, and for whom?
It’s like Emerson’s mousetrap the world will beat a path to your
doorstep if you possess something it truly needs. What do the humanities
offer nowadays, beyond cant and piety, that our compatriots--start with
them--really need? Well, as I’ve said, the humanities now strive for social
change, by clarifying it. But that’s not quite enough; there are other, perhaps
deeper, needs.
Is there an area in which you would like to revise what you have
already said in print? If so, what? You have written that your first
book, Radical Innocence, was the most “accepted” of your books. Do
you wish that your works had been more “accepted”? Or do you prefer
the stance that you seem to have taken? And what do you consider your
greatest academic achievement and why?
Or perhaps it’s more like what Kafka suggests in “In the Penal
Colony”--you know, just before we die we finally understand the nature
of our mistakes?
But let’s see how I can respond to the rest of your questions. I think that
I have marginalized myself, geographically and professionally--
constitutionally, I am a loner. My independent stand (let’s call it that) has
been, paradoxically, more acceptable in Europe than in America. Why
paradoxically? Because America, that old “willingness of the heart” as Scott
Fitzgerald put it, has been most generous, most welcoming in every other
way. I feel this strongly as a person, as an immigrant: I do not consider
myself a hyphenated American.
HASSAN: First, let’s distinguish between Marxism and the Left. (Isaiah
Berlin, among many others, has written convincingly about this.) Next, let’s
recognize the changing character of Western Marxism over the last eighty
years. Then, let’s admit that theoretical Marxism--and it has never been
anything but theoretical--has succeeded in becoming a floating Signifier of
Resistance, a moorless Sign of Change, a flapping Banner of Discontent--
like Islam now in certain parts of the world, without gulags. In fact, a
Moroccan intellectual once said to me in Casablanca: “I’ve turned to Islam
because the other [meaning Marxism] has failed.”
Do you feel that teaching has an ethical urgency? You have written that
teaching has engendered and informed your work.
HASSAN: Teaching is, has always been, unavoidably ethical, all the
way back to Socrates. But it is also aesthetic, political, erotic, spiritual.... As
a central human activity, it calls upon our full capacity, students and
teachers alike, to be fully human. Partial teaching, in both senses of
“partial,” shrinks everyone concerned. But good teaching must be a little
perverse.
HASSAN: Yes, indeed, we should, we do, we will teach great books (no
quotation marks there necessary). Yes, the objections of many feminists to
the canon have been sometimes valid. No, the canon, a responsive canon--
and Frank Kermode has shown it to be ever so--should not be abolished,
cannot be abolished, since the “abolitionists” most often cry for the
institution of their canon, whether they call it that or not.
HASSAN: That’s too big a question to tackle here--and the returns are
not yet in. Let me say this, though: I am surprised that there’s no greater
discrepancy between the values of my students and my own values today
than there was forty years ago. Do you realize that ours may be one of the
most “change-full” periods of history? Do I contradict myself (about
accelerated change)? I think not: willy-nilly, we are all changing together,
some more, others less; for some the gap may widen, for some it may
remain constant or even narrow.
But surely culture has deposited some of the same residue, as it were, in
each of us? Or do you feel that “selective exposure” to that culture, as
well as individual differences such as those stemming from genetics and
upbringing make each individual consciousness so different, so unique,
that “cultural construction” (or even my more modest suggestion of a
“cultural residue”) is a metaphor that just levels too many distinctions?
Have you read anything good lately? Anything that pulls you up short,
surprises you? Can you recommend any novelists, poets, or playwrights
writing today--in any language--who speak to our condition with
eloquence and concinnity?
Returning to American fiction, the big books like Pynchon’s Mason &
Dixon and DeLillo’s Underworld impress me, especially the latter, but do
not always move me. I might say the same of Paul Auster’s work, obsessive
and intriguing, on a smaller scale. Still, I would give my vote--had I one--to
Don DeLillo as the American successor of Toni Morrison for The Prize.
Whom to recommend for our time? How about a hedgehog and a fox:
Nietzsche and Shakespeare? Or Beckett and Montaigne? Or Kafka and Zen?
You have moved in a spiritual direction (yet not a religious one). Could
you briefly discuss the relationship of aesthetics and spirituality? How
does this spirituality connect with American culture and American life?
HASSAN: Hold it, if I can answer one of your large questions, answer it
half decently, both of us will sleep well tonight.
We are nihilistic thoughts that come into God’s head, Kafka said. Put
another way, human consciousness introduces radical doubt everywhere in
creation. Then what? That’s the point of departure of my recent essay, called
“The Expense of Spirit in Postmodern Times: Between Nihilism and
Belief.” Does the “sickness of severe suspicion” (that’s Nietzsche) hint
rebirth?
And yes, of course, this spiritual impulse is very much in the American
grain, whether Native American or Puritan Pilgrim, whether in the Hudson
School of painters or the Transcendentalist Movement, whether in
Fundamentalist religions or New Age gush. The impulse variously quickens
some of our best living writers: Saul Bellow, Norman Mailer, John Updike,
Toni Morrison, John Ashbery ... the list is long. How, then, can I ignore it?
In that Georgia Review essay you also suggest that even if people were
physically safe and comfortable there would still be a lot of problems.
“[C]an the world’s evil diminish by material means alone? Will the
collective miseries of humanity dissolve, or even distinctly reduce, by
attending only to the corporeal needs of the individual?” What are the
“miseries” you had in mind, and do you really think they would be as
bad as physical deprivation?
HASSAN: I had in mind the miseries of Cain and Job, Oedipus and
Agamemnon, Antigone and Medea, Cassandra and the Wandering Jew, Iago
and Edmund, Hamlet and Lear, yes, and Caliban, among others. The
miseries of Milton’s Satan who cries, “I myself am Hell!” The miseries of
the most vivid and varied characters of the novel, from Don Quixote to
Captain Ahab, from Anna Karenina to Emma Bovary, from Ivan Karamazov
to Dr. Zhivago, from Bloom to Molloy--you get the point, I’m sure: they all
suffer. The miseries of gods and immortals, too.
Hassan, Ihab. Between the Eagle and the Sun: Traces of Japan. Tuscaloosa: U
of Alabama P, 1996.
____. The Literature of Silence: Henry Miller and Samuel Beckett. New York:
Knopf, 1967.
Smith, Bernard. “The Last Days of the Post Mode.” Thesis Eleven 54 (1998):
1-24.