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==Yeshiva University - unexplained deletion?==
{{user|Winchester2313}} presumably accuses ''me'' of an [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=1042763144&oldid=1042762731 "unexplained deletion"], yet the diffs reveal that he himself removed the expanded text on Yeshiva University. The original text had:

<blockquote>'''Joseph B. Soloveitchik'''

In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",[45] as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".[46]

'''The Modern Orthodox and Yeshiva University '''

Shach wrote that Yeshiva University (YU) type institutions are an entirely negative phenomenon posing a threat to the very endurance of authentic Judaism. Shach said that these modern conceptions were "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup>[60]</sup> Shach further writes that the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are "ma'aseh satan" (the work of the satanic forces), for the existence of such role models will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.<sup>[61]</sup></blockquote>
 
My amended version merged these two paragraphs under a section titled "Modern Orthodoxy" as follows: 
<blockquote>Shach wrote that Modern Orthodox Yeshiva University type institutions were a threat to authentic Judaism. Shach called them "an absolute disaster, causing the destruction of our Holy Torah. Even the so-called 'Touro College' in the USA is a terrible disaster, a ' churban ha-das ' (destruction of the Jewish religion)..."<sup>[67]</sup> He felt that the success of people who achieved greatness in Torah despite involvement in secular studies was the work of the "satanic forces."<sup>[68]</sup> Shach accused Joseph B. Soloveitchik of Yeshiva University of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup>[69]</sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup>[70]</sup></blockquote> 
On 6 September 2021, [[User:Winchester2313|Winchester2313]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=next&oldid=1042759937 '''removed''' the Yeshiva University text himself] adding in its place:<blockquote>In a lengthy attack on Joseph B. Soloveitchik (d. 1993) of Yeshiva University, Shach accused him of writing "things that are forbidden to hear",<sup>[63]</sup> as well as of "...endangering the survival of Torah-true Judaism by indoctrinating the masses with actual words of heresy".<sup>[64]</sup></blockquote>
only to re-add the missing YU text soon after claiming it was an [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=1042763144&oldid=1042762731 "unexplained deletion"], when in fact he removed it himself under the guise of ''"restoring longstanding and properly sourced version"''. (NB. here "properly sourced" = [[WP:PRIMARY]]) What is [[User:Winchester2313|Winchester2313]] playing at? [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 23:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

:I simply restored the longstanding text by copying the earlier (pre-revisionist) version. Shach's [[WP:NOTABILITY]] was largely on account of his frequent infamous attacks on other leading rabbis and groups, as evidenced by the majority of his mentions in sources meeting [[WP:RS]]. [[User:Winchester2313|Winchester2313]] ([[User talk:Winchester2313|talk]]) 04:06, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
::You also simply removed it without releasing what you had removed, something you seem very prone to and I view as a form of [[Wikipedia:VANDAL|VANDALISM]]. But never mind.... Now, please provide [[WP:RS]] for your claim that Shach's notability stems from his attacks. Notwithstanding, we do not list them here like this in such an unseemly fashion. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 15:38, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

==Lead - Preparation area==
'''Elazar Menachem Man Shach''' ({{langx|he|אלעזר מנחם מן שך}}) (January 1, 1899 – November 2, 2001) was a leading [[Israelis|Israeli]] [[rabbi]] of the non-Hasidic [[Lithuanian Jews|Lithuanian stream]] of [[Haredi Judaism]] who served as [[Rosh yeshiva]] of [[Ponevezh Yeshiva]] in [[Bnei Brak]].

Born in [[Lithuania]], he escaped the impending [[Holocaust]] after immigrating to [[Mandatory Palestine|Mandate Palestine]] where he continued his teaching career. In 1954 he took up position as one of three [[Rosh yeshiva|co-deans]] of the prestigious Ponevezh Yeshiva, along with rabbis [[Shmuel Rozovsky]] and [[Dovid Povarsky]]. Recognised for his Torah scholarship, he authored ''Avi Ezri'', a comprehensive four-volume work on [[Maimonides]]' ''[[Mishneh Torah]]'' and eventually became a spiritual mentor to hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Jews.<ref name=SharonJ>Jeremy Sharon. (January 26, 2021). [https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/skunk-spray-and-prayers-amid-haredi-protests-in-mea-shearim-656676 Skunk spray, burning bins highlight gov't impotence to haredi resistance], ''Jerusalem Post''.</ref> 

Considered one of Israel's most influential rabbis<ref>(March 25, 2009). [https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rabbi-avraham-ravitz-israeli-politician-wz7mjbpld6s Rabbi Avraham Ravitz: Israeli politician], ''The Times''.</ref> and  the undisputed leader of Lithuanian Jews in Israel from the mid-1970s until his death<ref>
Leon Mock. ''[https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kwVGEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA246&dq=%22+undisputed+leader+of+Lithuanian+Judaism+in+Israel+%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr_LuPhNDzAhWLQkEAHYvJCacQ6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22%20undisputed%20leader%20of%20Lithuanian%20Judaism%20in%20Israel%20%22&f=false The Concept of "Ruach Ra'ah" in Contemporary Rabbinic Responsa (1945–2000): Possible Relations between Knowledge of the Physical World and Traditional Knowledge in Rabbinic Judaism]'', [[De Gruyter]], 2021. pg. 246.</ref> he co-headed the [[Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah]], was chairman of [[Independent Education System (Israel)|Chinuch Atzmai]] and was patron to hundreds of institutions and organisations around the world,<ref>Shlomo Lorincz. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=nLkRAQAAIAAJ&dq=%22honorary+president+of+hundreds+of+yeshivos%22+shach&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=%22honorary+president+%22 In Their Shadow: The Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Shach], pg. 282. Feldheim Publishers, 2008.</ref> including many yeshivas he established for Sephardim.<ref>Shahar Ilan. [https://www.haaretz.com/1.5428475 Rabbi Schach, a Man of Wars and Battles],  ''Haaretz''. Nov. 4, 2001</ref> Seen as the successor of the [[Chazon Ish]],<ref>Tuvia Friling. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sErkAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA255&dq=shach+soloveitchik&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjI8aXXgoXzAhUGglwKHVzHAr44ChDoAXoECAUQAg#v=onepage&q=shach%20soloveitchik&f=false A Jewish Kapo in Auschwitz: History, Memory, and the Politics of Survival], Brandeis University Press, 2014. pg. 255. "This Rabbi Soloveitchik was also a great admirer of Rabbi Elazar Menachem Shach, the Hazon Ish's successor as the acknowledged leader of a large part of the Israeli Haredi community...".</ref> he was held in high esteem among large portions of the non-Hasidic Ashkenazi community over whom he was able to dominate and impose his will, an attribute lacking in today's divided and factional rabbinic leadership.<ref name=SharonJ/>

His uncompromising stance and strong conservative opinions often led to controversy, prompting opponents to label him a "Jewish [[Khomeinism|Khomeini]]".<ref name=Guardian061101>Lawrence Joffe. (November 06, 2001). [https://www.theguardian.com/news/2001/nov/06/guardianobituaries.israel Obituary: Rabbi Eliezer Schach], ''The Guardian''</ref> He was at forefront of a bitter struggle against [[Chabad messianism]] and often railed against the secularism of Israeli society.<ref name=AP050221>Anshel Pfeffer. (Feb. 5, 2021). [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-how-the-haredi-street-turned-racist-and-ultra-nationalist-1.9513491 Opinion | How the Haredi Street Turned Racist and Ultra-nationalist], ''Haaretz''.</ref> In favour of giving up [[land for peace]], he was seen as a political dove and fiercely opposed the establishment of Jewish settlements in the West Bank.<ref>Ariel Handel, Marco Allegra, Erez Maggor. [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xDrqDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA117&dq=%22Rabbi+Elazar+Menachem+Shach+who+led+the+fierce+opposition+to+the%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiBndiu8_DyAhUQZMAKHaryAI0Q6AF6BAgCEAI#v=onepage&q=%22Rabbi%20Elazar%20Menachem%20Shach%20who%20led%20the%20fierce%20opposition%20to%20the%22&f=false Normalizing Occupation: The Politics of Everyday Life in the West Bank Settlements], pg. 117. Indiana University Press. (2017)</reF>

Although ideologically opposed to Zionism, he was instrumental in founding two Israeli political parties ([[Shas]] in 1984 representing [[Sepharadim]], and [[Degel Hatorah]] in 1988 representing [[Lithuanian Jews|Lithuanian]] [[Ashkenazi Jews|Ashkenazim]]) which won disproportionate state funds for [[yeshivas]] and other orthodox institutions.<ref name=Guardian061101/> In 1990, he emerged as a political kingmaker when he prevented religious parties joining a left-wing government on the grounds that [[Israeli Labor Party|Labour]] was "[[anti-Jewish]]".<ref name=Guardian061101/>

===Comments===
This proposed rewrite does nothing to improve on the existing version - on the contrary, it actually replaces key contextual information and details from high quality sources with an overly lengthy and poorly sourced ramble by one editor. There is no reason to replace the existing, longstanding ''consensus'' version with this proposed sanitized version which runs afoul of [[WP:BALANCED]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:NOT]]. [[User:Winchester2313|Winchester2313]] ([[User talk:Winchester2313|talk]]) 04:19, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
:Please explain why it "runs afoul of [[WP:BALANCED]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:NOT]]." Don't just keep plastering these WP:GULDILINES every time. You are not grappling with the issues at hand. You write here that the current LEAD contains "high quality sources." It contains one: '''Haaretz' daily newspaper, Shachar Ilan, November 2, 2001''. Your comments here are nonsensical. You are wasting my time. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 15:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems quite clear that a certain editor is actually an activist committed to forcing their revisions onto this page with a view to creating a distorted narrative about it's highly controversial subject, rather than actually achieving [[WP:CONSENSUS]]. This is obviously disruptive editing and does not improve the page in any way. 

The lead as well as the page in general is actually [[WP:BALANCED]] in it's present (and longstanding form), as opposed to the proposed 'sanitized' version. If [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] insists on turning this page into a battleground, it's clear that an ANI will have to be the next stop, and I feel that perhaps a page block would be the appropriate remedy. [[User:Winchester2313|Winchester2313]] ([[User talk:Winchester2313|talk]]) 06:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
:It is impossible to reach "consensus" when you refuse to be specific about what precisely is unbalanced, distorted and disruptive. I totally reject your accusations. 1. The article in its current form is not balanced. 2. that the page has been longstanding in its current form is simply not an argument. 3. what is being "distorted" and how? 4. describing the subject as "highly controversial" as a reason for stifling further editing is really not helpful. 6. That my additions with numerous sourced citations is described by you as "not improving the page in any way" is just disgusting. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 11:03, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

A simple look at the google search results or even google news results will show that the article on Wiipedia for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability. Compare the following well known Orthodox Jewish 20th century rabbis:
[[Adin Steinsaltz]] - google results = 244,000
[[Moshe Feinstein]] - google results = 330,000
[[Menachem Schneerson]] google results = 336,000
[[Ovadia Yosef]]      google results = 219,000
[[Jonathan Sacks]]    google results = 121,000
[[Elazar Shach]]     google results = 39,000

A look at the pitiful google news results for Elazar Shach make this even clearer with 189 results compared to 2360 for Moshe Feinstein, 5620 for Ovadia Yosef or 7180 for Menachem Schneerson. It is patently absurd for this article to be aggressively stuffed with references to every person he supposedly met while in one yeshiva or another. This reeks of a very transparent attempt to artificially exaggerate his notability by supposed association with more notable figures. The article as it reads now needs trimming, not more stuffing. Also, the issues with citing from the Yated and their writers moonlighting at similarly transparent partisan publications where we're treated to stories about the  wunderkind who "reportedly.....[insert fantastic unverifiable story of ones choice]..." have been raised previously and surely don't need to be relitigated?[[User:Londoner77|Londoner77]] ([[User talk:Londoner77|talk]]) 22:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)
:He either met them or he did not. (At present, the article does not actually state whom he met in yeshiva, you having previously removed it...). The ''Yated'' is currently referenced only once?  I do not understand how this article "grossly exaggerates his notability". While your ghit chart proves beyond all doubt that M Schneerson was the greatest and most famous rabbi that ever lived, we rely on RS which in fact state Shach was one of, if not the most, influential rabbi in Israel, where he boasted a following far greater than Schneerson. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 23:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Who he met or not probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor does any of this have to do with any other rabbis. What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that without grossly exaggerating Shach's real-world notability.[[User:Londoner77|Londoner77]] ([[User talk:Londoner77|talk]]) 23:20, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
:What description of Shach would "grossly exaggerate" his notability? [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 21:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:I will add that you actually contradict yourself. Above you state "the article on Wiipedia [sic] for Shach actually grossly exaggerates his notability" while your previous post says "What matters is that this article present as neutral and balanced an overview as possible. In it's present form, this article does that." I will also counter that you are the one who brought up other rabbis in relation to Shach. Please try presenting a consistent argument here otherwise we end up going round in circles. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 21:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
:And while you insist on removing uncontentious material about his early years and significant information relating to the personalities who influenced him claiming it is [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elazar_Shach&diff=prev&oldid=539123084 "non-notable"], I would beg to disagree. There is no solid reason grounded in the guidelines which preclude us from mentioning his mentors. [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

==Predecessors==
The text states: "The Shach family had been merchants for generations". [https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K5cRAQAAIAAJ&q=%22+Rav+Ezriel+,+was+a+scion+of+a+long+chain+of+rabbis+and%22&dq=%22+Rav+Ezriel+,+was+a+scion+of+a+long+chain+of+rabbis+and%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5oruN0JzzAhVJQMAKHd-CCwAQ6AF6BAgCEAI This book] says "His father, Rav Ezriel, was a scion of a long chain of rabbis and rabbinical judges." ...? [[User:Chesdovi|Chesdovi]] ([[User talk:Chesdovi|talk]]) 13:08, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

==Refs==
{{reflist}}