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January 8

States at War

OP blocked again

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Can states declare war on each other with their respective militias? Would, say, a Texan invasion of Oklahoma be possible? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.200.55 (talk) 01:04, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Congress has the sole power to declare war. And keep in mind that the Confederacy tried it, and was smacked down for it. --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 01:53, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to the U.S. Constitution, "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay." -- AnonMoos (talk) 02:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The part forbidding the keeping of troops in time of peace, raises a question: The Second Amendment refers to militias. Would the existence of militias qualify as the keeping of troops? I'm talking about state-sanctioned militias, not these characters who label themselves as "militias". --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 02:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Official state militias had/have “consent of Congress” (today, they are considered an adjunct of the National Guard). Blueboar (talk) 14:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, that permits Texas to invade Oklahoma defensively. Card Zero (talk) 02:37, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is good info because I started a popular movement at my school on the basis of invading Oklahoma, and I wanted to make sure it was possible. Thanks. 68.74.200.55 (talk) 05:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The constitution says that such an invasion would be unconstitutional. AnonMoos (talk) 10:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This was an issue back in the War of 1812… it was unclear whether the New York Militia units could legally take part in a planned invasion of Canada, as that was not “defensive”. Blueboar (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting some help

Working on expansion of Draft:1969 Rabindra Sarobar Stadium en masse sexual violence controversy
Looking for information on the incidence from 'Calcutta Municipal Gazette'
Specially 'a judicial inquiry report' of Justice Shambhu Ghosh (alternate spelling, Sambhu Chandra Ghose) presumably dated in December 1969.
- Sources like "Calcutta Municipal Gazette Volume 89". Office of the Registrar of Newspapers. Press in India. 1968: 391. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) seem to be available with the University of Michigan, So if any one has access to University of Michigan Library may help out.
- Some alternate source options seem to be available @ Digital Library of the West Bengal Secretariat and search their lead me to one Gazette 1st April to 30th April 1969 & 1st December to 31st December 1969 but these documents seem too large for browsing through for me the single person.

I would appreciate any help in above regard.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 04:58, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want another Wikipedian to look up a reference for you, then you should ask at the Resource Exchange Project ---- LongHairedFop (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gold rate as a measurement of inflation

Hello all. I have NO knowledge about economics so please keep answers simple. I have 2 hypothetical situations. First, let's say someone gave me some money as loan. Say they gave me 100,000 INR three times over a period of three years. So say current rate of gold is 5000 INR per gram, after a year it became 6,000 and then after one more year It became 7000. So can I say, the person gave me (100000/5000) = 20 gm, (100000/6000)=16.6gm and (100000/7000)=14.2 gm as three installments which adds up to 50.8 gm. And I need to return him this much amount. So whenever I pay back some money then its equivalent gold amount is deducted from 50.8 gm.
In another situation, say, I set my goal today that I will become rich so that I have net worth of 1 billion INR. But after say 20 years (by the time I reach my goal) value of 1 billion will be less due to inflation. So can say that I will achieve net worth of 200,000 gms gold (rate is 5000/gm).
I understand that there might be some simpler methods like assuming inflation rate to be 2% per year etc., But I guess these rates fluctuate over the years. But what is something which remains constant. Is it gold? - 2409:4043:2391:E55C:569:ECAE:B4A9:921C (talk) 07:07, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless a government intervenes, the market price of gold is what it sells for. If your loan was in Rupees, and you are expected to pay it back in gold, you have assumed the risk of depreciation (when the loan is due, you must buy gold, regardless of the price); the lender has assumed the risk of appreciation (the Rupee might rise against gold). On the second point, the future price of gold can be estimated from the futures market for your favourite currency.DOR (HK) (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"What if" speculative "histories" about the American Civil War not happening

Are there any good books based on the idea that the war never happened and the secession was an uncontested divorce? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Try Rethinking the Coming of the Civil War: A Counterfactual Exercise. Alansplodge (talk) 11:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not exactly "not happening", but the book If the South Had Won the Civil War explores what might have happened if the CSA had won. It also contains a link to other alternative histories. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:26, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not a "history", but Underground Airlines is a book set in a modern America where some states continue to practice slavery. I enjoyed it.-gadfium 23:13, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Commons image File:Храм I.jpg

File:Храм I.jpg

Храм I

Can someone tell me who made this image and when? Currently under discussion at Talk:Solomon's_Temple#New_image. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:59, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest appearance i can find through tineye and archive is the link in the image description 22 August, 2002 used on same site here(ru)(en) and here(ru)(en). Does "Built by King Solomon in 2887" suggest a chronology or hint at source to anyone? I can't find the year 2887 associated with First Temple elsewhere. fiveby(zero) 15:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the effort! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you begin with the Jewish era of 6 October 3761 BC, then the year 2887 is 874 B.C., which is probably at least 50 years too late, but roughly in the right chronological region.... AnonMoos (talk) 21:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Given the time of year, one could revise the saying to "In Adam's fall, he raked leaves." --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

J. D. McCallum

When did John Donaldson McCallum, Scottish minister who served as Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1926, die? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this the guy?[1] --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 18:29, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably; but FaG is considered an unreliable source. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); [[User Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:45, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What, you think they faked the tombstone? If all else fails, call the cemetery and ask. --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 18:47, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, I don't think anything of the kind. I suggest you direct your snark to the people who persistently remove citations to FaG. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

YOU rejected the Findagrave reference I posted. If you doubt its value, you could call the cemetery and find out. Assuming they confirm it, and to really do it right, you could go there yourself and take a picture of the headstone, which you could post in the guy's rather sparse article. That should thwart the efforts of the Findagrave deletionists. --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 01:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:FINDAGRAVE-EL. We can't cite telephone calls either. DuncanHill (talk) 02:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The OP wants to know the answer. He's got ways to find out the answer. Assuming the cemetery has a written record of the burial, and if he goes to the cemetery and takes a picture of the tombstone, would that be sufficient? --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 04:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He needs a reliable source that he can use as as a citation in a Wikipedia article. A picture of a headstone or a telephone conversation won't be any use for that. Alansplodge (talk) 09:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since when are pictures taken by Wikipedians not considered reliable? --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 11:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh, see Wikipedia:No original research. Alansplodge (talk) 14:26, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So every photo submitted by Wikipedia users should be deleted. --<-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 19:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball_Bugs -- Wikimedia Commons is kind of its own separate realm. There's no policy on Commons forbidding Original Research there, and by their nature, many details of the circumstances in which photos were taken, or details of what is shown in photos, can't be externally verified, and depend on trusting the honesty of the uploader. But the other side of this is that Wikimedia Commons images can't usually be used as sources for Wikipedia articles (illustrations yes, sources no). AnonMoos (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thus making Wikipedia look stupid. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A picture of a gravestone saying "Fred Bloggs lies here, 1st April 1900 - 25 December 2022" is not a reliable source for the vital dates of Fred Bloggs, inventor of the self-reciprocating widget. It could be the grave of any one of a number of Fred Bloggses. Fred may have lied to his family about his birthday, perhaps to seem younger than he was or to hide his illegitimacy. It might say "loved by all who knew him" when in fact 90% of those who did know him thought he was an utter rotter, or "head of research at Imperial Widgets for over 50 years" when he held no such formal post, but liked to brag to family and friends, or "served with distinction in the Royal Artillery" when all he did was clean the lats at Woolwich. Gravestones are not carved under oath. Now, the dates may be helpful in tracking down something that is a reliable source, by, for example, narrowing down the range of newspapers in which to search. This isn't rocket science and I think anyone with any experience of sourcing articles will understand it. DuncanHill (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It comes down to how badly you want to know the answer. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:54, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wishaw Press Friday 23 May 1930, page 8, reports "One of the most prominent ministers in Lanarkshire. the Very Rev. J. D. McCallum. D.D., Larkhall, has just gone into retirement after a ministry of 44 years. Dr McCallum, who was moderator in 1926 of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, and for many years Clerk to the Hamilton Presbytery, has taken up residence with his family at Brookside, Moffat, Dumfriesshire. Since his retirement he has received by post a gift of £100 from his former congregation at Larkhall, as a parting expression of their good-will and affection". DuncanHill (talk) 20:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Times, Tuesday 14 October 1930 has an obituary, saying he died at Moffat last week. Will email. DuncanHill (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Received, thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:57, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no understanding of how Wikidata works, but why does the infobox say he was born in 1856 in Tarbolton, which is about 25 miles from Glasgow? 86.163.187.13 (talk) 12:31, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It says that because Andy edited d:Q45776697 last night to change the place and date of birth, adding the Times obituary as a source to both, but hasn't so far edited the text of the Wikipedia article accordingly. --ColinFine (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Youngest diarist in history

I'm looking for the youngest person who kept a diary which survives. When I try searching this question, all I get is returns about Anne Frank, who was 13 when she began keeping her diary. I figure there must be younger diarists, since a lot of children can write by the age of eight or earlier. Lantzy : Lantzy 20:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you've got the time and patience, you could try WP's List of diarists. 2603:6081:1C00:1187:4C3B:DABB:F598:DB70 (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably you mean published diary. The best I've found so far is Anna Green Winslow, who was 11, almost 12, when she started writing letters which became a diary of sorts, published as Diary of Anna Green Winslow, A Boston School Girl of 1771. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:48, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From a half-remembered TV documentary I found Yves Congar who began his illustrated diary of the 1914 German occupation of Sedan when he was 10. It's still available in print. Alansplodge (talk) 09:09, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was an attempted coupe. Temerarius (talk) 17:52, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to Anne Frank, there are a number of other children's diaries during the Holocaust which have survived; the youngest seems to be Pavel Weiner, whose diary was started at the age of 12 and was later published as Boy in Terezin: The Private Diary of Pavel Weiner, April 1944-April 1945. Alansplodge (talk) 09:39, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zlata Filipović started her diary when she was 10 or 11 living in Sarajevo in the 90s. Princess Persnickety (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tracking down this image of Saint Ambrose

I'm trying to track down this plate of young Saint Ambrose and his father. Ideally I'm looking for authorship and dating information, but mainly a better image of it so it can be properly included in the Ambrose article. From glancing I thought it was a relief, but I don't have anything other than that... Aza24 (talk) 22:03, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's a decoration on the 9th century altar of the Basilica of Sant'Ambrogio in Milan. The Italian wikipedia has an article on the altar, it's the bottom left panel in this image. A better quality image can be found on this website, but that is not freely licenced (afaik). - Lindert (talk) 22:33, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Amazing, thank you! I believe any reproductions of 2d works over 100 years old are out of copyright (though someone can correct me). Aza24 (talk) 22:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Trouble is, it's not really 2D, is it, so the exception we claim under {{PD-Art}} probably doesn't really hold here. Taking photographs of relief objects requires much more individual photographic decision-making and creativity (lighting, angle etc) than reproducing a drawing or painting on a flat surface. BTW, kudos to Lindert for finding it that quickly (I was on it too, but he beat me to it :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see... perhaps this one already on the commons will do then... it looks so different than the one in the link above, though maybe that is just the photo quality. Aza24 (talk) 01:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Birth date of Edmond Maître

The French wiki lists his birth date as April 23, and cites this reference which I can’t access. However, François Daulte says it was August 25 on page 23 of this 1978 catalog (PDF). I’m inclined to go with Daulte, but I could use some help. Is the former link accurate? Viriditas (talk) 23:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your first reference, the Bordeaux city archives, list his birth on April 23, see BORDEAUX 1 E 190 - Registre des actes de naissance de Bordeaux, section 1, 1840 - 1840, commentaires : Table annuelle en fin de registre, #465/1840, view: 221 sur 229. The original birth certificate #465/1840 in the same source is on view 70 sur 229. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Is it safe to assume that this official record is correct and the citation by Daulte is in error? Or is there an alternate explanation for the discrepancy? Viriditas (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The official record is correct. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again, Pp.paul.4. I added your information to User:Viriditas/Edmond_Maître, which is not quite ready for prime time. Please make any changes to it that you think are necessary. Viriditas (talk) 23:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

His death certificate (within Cote V4E 8548) at the Paris archives is in accordance to what the French wikipedia article says. There is no permalink button there to link the record itself, only buttons to download or print it, hence here only the search mask leading to it. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:45, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 9

Could the Feds order the Texan National Guard to invade Oklahoma?

OP blocked again

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Could the Feds order the Texan National Guard to invade Oklahoma? 68.74.200.55 (talk) 04:28, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would they? And did you ever get your toothpaste issue resolved? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly not, I tried to return the PS6 but I just got some piece of junk called an "iPhone 15". 68.74.200.55 (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not. Per the Posse Comitatus Act, federal forces cannot be used domestically. Per that article when the National Guard is federalized under 10 U.S.C. § 12406, that shifts control from the state governor to the President, making Guard operations subject to the Posse Comitatus Act as well. --Jayron 32 00:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's the context behind this strange proposition? The Feds ordering the invasion of Oklahoma? Has the Oklahoma legislature been defiant towards the Feds lately, or something like that? I haven't heard anything; please enlighten me? Eliyohub (talk) 13:36, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 10

Kelly-Springfield Motor Truck Co.

I'm trying to work out pretty much anything about the Kelly-Springfield Motor Truck Co., including whether it was just a rebranding of someone else's trucks. A note in Mack AC alludes to there being a Kelly-Springfield truck company (so pinging User:Cavalryman in case he has a clue). There was definitely a Kelly-Springfield Tire Company. We have three photos on Commons that say they are Kelly-Springfield trucks (gallery above; they look suspiciously like Mack ACs). There is a landmarked Kelly-Springfield Motor Truck Co. Building in Seattle (1525 11th Avenue), which appears to have been a retail and service outlet. This came up because of the photos, I'm trying to categorize a big batch on Commons from Seattle's Museum of History and Industry. Maybe my Google-fu is weak, but I haven't been able to come up with much else. - Jmabel | Talk 00:49, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I found This bit in the Springfield News-Sun, which covers an exhibit about the company at [The Heritage Center], a local history museum in Springfield, Ohio. You may be able to contact the Heritage Center directly for more information. --Jayron 32 01:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) According to this 1920 Lansing State Journal article, Hare's Motors took over Kelly-Springfield because it had a factory in Springfield, Ohio, turning out trucks: "The Kelly-Springfield plant today is one of the most completely equipped and best organized in the country, and the Kelly-Springfield truck is built - not assembled - under ideal manufacturing conditions." Also, "Everyone recognizes the excellence of both Riker and Kelly-Springfield trucks. Each is the successful development of the ideas of a capable engineering staff ..." So it doesn't sound like they were Macks, Mac. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:16, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In March 1914, it landed an order for 105 trucks ("believed to be the largest single order ever placed for motor trucks").[2] Clarityfiend (talk) 01:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A distributor claimed Kelly-Springfield fulfilled an order for 5900 trucks for the US post office in September 1918 and expanded its plant capacity 600% (over August 1914) for the war effort.[3] Clarityfiend (talk) 01:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Clarityfiend: Thanks! That certainly clinches that they really manufactured trucks. I wonder what was the corporate relation to Kelly-Springfield Tire Company. Our article on the latter makes no mention of a truck company, most likely it should if we can work out the relation. - Jmabel | Talk 02:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Springfield News-Sun article The Heritage Center: the Kelly-Springfield Motor Truck Company provides some more info. Among other things, it says Edwin S. Kelly organized the truck company in 1910. An Edwin S. Kelly established the tire company in 1894.[4] According to the findagrave entry for Edwin Stewart Kelly[5], he founded the tire company and the "Kelly Motor Truck Co." Clarityfiend (talk) 07:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jmabel, I am sorry I cannot tell you much, in an entry about the Mack AC the source lists the Kelly-Springfield as another manufacturer of radiator behind engine trucks [6]. Elsewhere it does include an illustration without commentary of a Kelly-Springfield K-50 model [7] which is very Mack AC in appearance (no doubt because of the radiator behind engine design). I suspect those photos above are of Kelly-Springfield trucks, the Mack AC has the original Mack symbol (pre-bulldog) on their grill, as shown on the right. Good luck with your search. Kind regards, Cavalryman (talk) 09:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Why couldn't the Exodus have happened circa 1600 bc?

A lot of archeologists say it never happened and say if it did happen, then it was around 1200bc. But then they say if it happened, the stories in the boook of joshua must be false, for ex. Jericho never fell around that time. But according to wikipedia, Jericho did fall around 1573bc, which could fit an exodus from egypt about 1600. Also, isn't King David said to have lived hundreds of years later than Joshua? Because Wikipedia also says that approximately 240 years after Jericho fell, that Abdi-Heba, a chieftain of Jerusalem in about 1330bc, was telling the Pharoah he was being attacked, at least in part by "Apiru. That could fit with King David conquering Jerusalem around then.Rich (talk) 14:04, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See The Exodus#Origins and historicity. It will give you a start for your research in this realm, there's a wealth of sources to follow on from there. There are a wide variety of possible historical settings for the exodus, and you're likely to find some level of support for just about any century within the second millenium BCE has having some support, especially in the sense that where evidence is sparse, possibilities become legion. --Jayron 32 14:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Josephus identified the Exodus with the end of Hyksos rule in Egypt, but he was just guessing. There's not much external evidence for Israelites (as opposed to generalized nomads and "Asiatics", as a disparaging Egyptian term is commonly translated into English) until the Merneptah Stele and the rise of the Four room house (both occurring centuries after 1600 B.C.). AnonMoos (talk) 17:28, 10 January 2022 (UTC)m[reply]

The earliest "early Exodus" chronologies are still later than 1600 BCE. That's still during rule of Lower Egypt by the Hyksos, who were of Canaanite origin and distinct from the native Egyptians. Many have found it appealing to associate the Exodus with the expulsion of the Hyksos a little later, but not with a Hyksos ruler as the Pharoah of Exodus. Joshua involves a lot more than Jericho -- does the 1573 BCE date work for all sites? (My understanding is no). I'm pretty certain that locating David in the 14th century won't work at all: no Philistines yet, no match with timeline of the later monarchy, etc. --Amble (talk) 00:44, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. The Philistines didn't come into the southern coastal plain of Canaan until the migrations of the Sea Peoples during the "Late Bronze Age collapse". The United Monarchy of David and Solomon probably would not have been able to come into existence without the diminishing of the Egyptian sphere of influence at that time. AnonMoos (talk) 01:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? Temerarius (talk) 06:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the situation in the 10th-century B.C. had been like that in the Amarna letters, with Egypt often interfering in Canaan, and local leaders appealing to the Egyptians to settle their disputes, then it's hard to see how an independent power, not concerned with being either pro-Egyptian or anti-Egyptian, could have arisen to control large territories for any length of time. AnonMoos (talk) 18:12, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's if there ever was a United Monarchy of David and Solomon. Some archaologists (yeah, yeah: "Who?") argue that at the time of David, whose existence is indirectly implied (once) in a datable record from a neighboring state, the population he can have controlled numbered (from archeological evidence) only a couple of thousand; that the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah arose and remained separate until much later; and that the biblical accounts of a relatively rich and powerful single kingdom were post-Babylonian exile propaganda of the 5th-century BCE created to strengthen support of the later, shakily emerging united nation of that time.

Others, of course, disagree. Inevitably, many scholars in the field have conscious or unconscious biases due to religious and cultural backgrounds (or reactions against them), which likely effect their interpretations of the all-too-sparse evidence, and indeed what they do or do not recognise as valid evidence. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.90.210 (talk) 18:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Part of the reason why the United Monarchy isn't well documented in inscriptions and such is because of the very same "Late Bronze Age collapse" which made its existence possible. The population of Jerusalem might have been a few thousand during the United Monarchy period (the "City of David" had a rather small area), but the population of the whole kingdom was much greater... AnonMoos (talk) 19:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This gets back closer to the OP's question. The existence (or not) of the United Monarchy is related to the level of population, centralization, and building at the time, which depends on the chronology. But those are questions of a few decades as in Israel Finkelstein's "low chronology". Putting David in the Amarna period would be an adjustment of > 300 years. It would completely remove David from his context, like having Napoleon fight the English at Agincourt instead of Waterloo. For the Exodus, which the OP primarily asked about, there is less to tie it to a definite context and proposed dates do vary by centuries. --Amble (talk) 20:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying that the truth is hard to find because the field is muddled due to the biases of academics against the truth of the Bible. I disagree. Let's not throw our hands up because "people disagree." The scholarly opinion (if not consensus, then nearly) is that there was not a united monarchy as portrayed in the Bible. Temerarius (talk) 05:33, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to me kind of like a request for "opinions, predictions, or debate", which is a no-no on the Ref Desk. Many many things could possibly theoretically have happened at some point, like a teapot entering orbit near Jupiter. The burden of proof is on the party making the claim. The events of the Exodus narrative have zero evidence for them outside of the Exodus narrative itself, which is a good reason to be extremely skeptical about the narrative's historicity. You seem to be saying, let's assume they happened, and then work backward to find a good historical period to assign them to, which is not how sound historians operate. I can give you a near limitless list of things that might have happened, like the gazillions of years of Jain cosmology. --47.155.96.47 (talk) 01:08, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly what is recounted in the Book of Exodus most certainly did not happen as an event in history -- but on the other hand, there's plenty of evidence that Semitic-language speakers sometimes intruded into Egypt, and even a surviving account of Egyptian authorities pursuing nomads/"Asiatics" fleeing from Egypt (though not likely connected with Israelites). What is written down in the book of Exodus is a version of an originally oral national legend/narrative about the formation of Israelites as a people, which takes place in a detailed geographical context of places which actually existed. It's not stupid to try to find out what historical reality (in terms of what is known about Egypt) may have been behind this narrative -- and I really don't see what this has to do with "Russell's Teapot" (which is about theology, not history or geography). AnonMoos (talk) 07:49, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think i've read that Abraham met a Philistine king. Whether or not Abraham even existed, it could mean there were Philistines much earlier than late Bronze Age, or people that were "retro-named Philistines in later writing, so I don't see why people living later than Abraham, like in 1600bc or 1330bc, could also been retro-named Philistines, if they lived in the same regions that Philistines later lived. Rich (talk) 12:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Internal Soviet border changes in 1927

According to [8], page 470: "In the space of a few months in 1927, Isfara and Sokh were originally allocated to the Uzbek SSR, then ceded to the Kyrgyz SSR, and finally returned to do the Uzbek SSR"

Does anyone know where I can find more information on this? Specific dates, laws, borders? Was it the Sokh district as it currently exists hopping around, and likewise was it the whole Isfara District? --Golbez (talk) 22:56, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't cite any source right now, but I remember reading that the Soviets divided the Ferghana Valley with a complicated jigsaw of SSR borders so that no one ethnic group could have a consolidated power base there... AnonMoos (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm working on a version of Territorial evolution of the United States but for the USSR, so the specifics of dates and borders is what I'm after. --Golbez (talk) 02:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Megoran, Nick (2010). "The Uzbekistan-Kyrgyzstan Boundary". Borderlines and Borderlands: political oddities at the edge of the nation-state. p. 40.
Koichiev, Arslan (2003). "Ethno-Territorial Claims in the Ferghana Valley During the Process of National Delimitation, 1924-7". In Everett-Heath, Tom (ed.). Central Asia: aspects of transition. p. 55. -- 16:04, 11 January 2022 Fiveby
- @Fiveby: thank you so much! --Golbez (talk) 04:03, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 11

Complete List of Every Battle on Wikipedia

Goal: Find a complete database/list of every battle on Wikipedia @WP:MILHIST coordinators:

I know there is a number of lists concerning this topic but all of them are incomplete. There is also this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_military_conflict&limit=500&hideimages=1 The List above has around 19000 entries but its quite messy.

I am currently checking around the military projects for complete lists but to no avail.

Any ideas on where I should look or if there is indeed a complete list of every battle inputted on Wikipedia thus far?

Thanks. -- Preceding unsigned comment added by UnlimitedRed (talk o contribs) 01:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how "complete" it is, but there's List of battles (alphabetical). 2603:6081:1C00:1187:4579:F6C6:973A:C1AF (talk) 01:07, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yea That page has around 6200 entries. As well the other lists that are related to that one also have different numbers. I wonder if anyone has a database seperate from the lists here for general organization purposes? -- 01:17, 11 January 2022 UnlimitedRed

This search turns up all Wikipedia articles with a title beginning with "Battle" (though the first part of the listing is mostly not very helpful -- maybe you could search for articles whose title begins with "Battle of"...) AnonMoos (talk) 01:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That won't get you just traditional military battles. Battle of Broken Hill is about what some describe as Australia's first act of religious terrorism. It involved an ice cream cart. HiLo48 (talk) 03:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also a substantial number of battle articles have titles that begin with "Siege of..." or "Operation...". Alansplodge (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Categories are the way to go with such voluminous groupings. Start at Category:Battles --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 14:03, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking the same thing, but I don't think that works here. You can delve into the sub-categories, but unless you're very very careful, you're going to get tons of duplications. For example, one of the main subcats is by country, so naturally every battle between two nations will be in there twice. You'd have to copy the contents of each cat into a separate document to remove the duplicates (and not just jot down the number, say) Matt Deres (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed the OP wanted to browse, rather than compile a list for its own ends. Your point is a good one. There will probably be other reasons for duplications, too. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 10:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Every battle on Wikipedia? Does anyone keep track of edit wars? —Tamfang (talk) 04:35, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(North) American version of CBBC Newsround

Is there American show equivalent to the fantastic CBBC Newsround program for school kids? If not is there a Canadian version? I show Newsround in my class but obviously it is directed at a British audience so many of the references aren't relevant. I have a reference question (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's an NBC Nightly News Kids edition: "new episodes premiere every Thursday on NBC News’ YouTube channel. Beginning on March 6, 2020, NBC Nightly News Kids Edition started airing Saturdays on select NBC affiliates." There's also a website for CBC Kid News. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Festung Europa Digitalis

I got a promotional email from OVHcloud mentioning an article[9] titled "OVHcloud: Putting the Final Pieces in Place for Europe's Digital Fortress?".

Does that title have, er, unfortunate connotations? Or am I mis-reacting. Thanks. 2602:24A:DE47:B8E0:1B43:29FD:A863:33CA (talk) 23:49, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You tell me... File:Demonstration against Morten Kjærum in Vienna.jpg -- asilvering (talk) 23:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, the word "digitalis", insofar as it occurred in Latin (it's not listed in my Classical dictionary) meant "of the fingers, having to do with the fingers"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, any gardener will immediately think of a certain kind of highly poisonous plant, also not a great association... -- asilvering (talk) 09:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To me it does (Fortress Europe). I also flinch when people propose "the final solution" of some question, and I'm not alone in this.^[10] --Lambiam 11:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that depends on your point of view. It does not to me, but IT is not my forte. To me it speaks more of realism. Like putting in bullettproof glass in the windows of your house when you know there's more and more people out there with guns. Insofar, yes, you might say that's not a connotation that feels good. And that's only referring to digital. Other than that, for instance the picture linked above, seriously negative connotation. Regards from Europe, --G-41614 (talk) 11:51, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 12

Mau Bast!

In the comments to a friend's post about the death of their cat, someone commented

Mau Bast! Mau Bast! A Basti, per em setat, erta-na chu em asui neter sentra semu hena net'emmit, hetep ab em asui tau heqt.

which they translated as

Hail Bast! Hail Bast! Hail Bast, coming forth from the secret place, may there be given to me splendor in the place of incense, herbs, and love-joys, peace of heart in the place of bread and beer.

Is this a genuine hymn to Bastet? When I search, all I find is new religious movements talking about cannabis. Marnanel (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A search of Google Books brings up a result (but no preview) in a 1990 edition of The Maxims of Ptahhotep. Alansplodge (talk) 16:53, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

However, a quick scan through the full text draws a blank. Alansplodge (talk) 17:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a combination of two phrases from the Papyrus of Ani translated by E. A. Wallis Budge, "Hail, Bast, coming forth from the secret place"(Plate XXXI) and "May there be given to me splendour in the place of water and air and love joys, peace of heart in the place of bread and beer."(Plate XXIX). fiveby(zero) 19:29, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 13

Arabic to English

Greetings,

I got translated one article from Arabic ar:أمينة داود المفتي to English Draft:Amina Dawood Al-Mufti

a) Arabic Wikipedia contains a reference to ar:عملية الموساد في طرابلس is there a corresponding article in English Wikipedia to this one.

b) Whether any Hebrew language sources available for Draft:Amina Dawood Al-Mufti

c) I need help in importing references from Arabic Wikipedia article ar:أمينة داود المفتي to English Draft:Amina Dawood Al-Mufti

d) Confirmations to her fathers name / father's profession or career background/ (updated request)

Thanks and regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

She's mentioned on the Hebrew Wikipedia article devoted to Sa'id Mufti, but I can't tell what the connection is at a casual glance. You might move her Circassian origins to the lead section... AnonMoos (talk) 22:17, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic Wikipedia article mentions abort her father as "..Her father was a wealthy jeweler, and her uncle held the rank of major general in the royal court." Hebrew Wikipedia article seems to claim her to be daughter of Sa'id Mufti ex the Prime Minister of Jordan.

Whether both claims are correct? one of them is correct or both are doubtful?

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 00:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In re Helen Nicolay (1866-1954)

Moin. Said person was the daughter of John George Nicolay, in turn secretary and biographer of Abraham Lincoln. Helen Nicolay was, among other vocations, a painter. Works by her were, besides other venues, hung in the Smithsonian at some point. Or so I have read in a single sentence in some text I managed not to save, as it seems. As far as I can recall, it merely mentioned that a painting of hers, or maybe more than that, at one time or other was on display at said institution. I would appreciate any hint as to the circumstances, like if there's some online source regarding paintings that have ever hung there, or anything like that I might use for a reference in that matter. Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 11:30, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Smithsonian's collections database is searchable: 554 results for paintings by Nicolay, but it looks like most are false positives for people named Nicolai instead. You can also play with the filters in the sidebar (desktop view) and try searching drawings instead of paintings, etc. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:16, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, found at least one, though I didn't go through every page of search results so if you do you might find more. It's a portrait in oils of her father, view database entry. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is the National Portrait Gallery's Catalog of American Portraits, pointing to one of two portraits held by The Lincoln Financial Foundation Collection. Good job working on an article here G-41614 (Helen Nicolay,de:Helen Nicolay)fiveby(zero) 19:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear, this is awkward. First, allow me to thank both of you for your replies. This does help insofar as I now know the portrait of her father was the painting in question. Unfortunately, I am not currently working on a piece on Helen Nicolay for the en:wp - I am so egotistical as to use en:wp as help page for de:wp, especially regarding to matters related to the US. On the other hand, I just might, at some point in the future, go and translate my own work. Thanks again! Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 19:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After playing around a bit, the Smithsonian lists two paintings by Helen Nicolay, a watercolour and an oil painting, both landscapes. Besides the portrait in the Lincoln-Collection. Ok, now I really got to think about that translation ... and I got about a half a dozen things at de:wp I've been wanting to do for about a year or so. Hmmm ... Thanks again, --G-41614 (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So happy you found what you needed! 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:39, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 14

Bristol slave trade

Does anyone have access to David Richardson, The Bristol Slave Traders: A Collective Portrait (1985)? That's the source for the number of 500,000 enslaved Africans traded by Bristol merchants during the Transatlantic slave trade, but there's no page number. This BBC article also cites that book and that number, but unfortunately also without a page number--one gets the feeling that the Richardson citation was pulled from the BBC article. I really need a more precise citation. Or does anyone have another source for such a number, preferably accessible via Google Books? Thank you so much, Drmies (talk) 15:58, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

if it is this one i am going to have to comment on your google search skill. I hazily remember something of this sort an issue on the Edward Colston article, possible the 500,000 number came from a query using a database of slave voyages? fiveby(zero) 16:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, i was wrong thinking it was connected to SlaveVoyages

Information obtained from shipping records, customs accounts and newspapers reveals that some 2,108 slaving ventures were fitted out in Bristol between 1698 and 1807, an average of just over 20 ventures per year. As the mean loading of vessels on the coast appears to have been in excess of 250 slaves during the eighteenth century, Bristol traders were responsible therefore for carrying probably over half a million blacks from the African coast during the era of 'open trade' from 1698 to 1807.

p. 1 last para. fiveby(zero) 16:49, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks--I see it, in the pamphlet. I appreciate it. Drmies (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Anonym internet culture

Is there actually already a knowledgebased study of places on the Internet where you can add tests anonymously?
Just like certain imeage boards, pastbins, various art projects such as theLibrary of Babel and so on? In a way, one could consider this a form of literature, just like papyrology. After all, these texts have certain things in common, such as worldwide readability, and so on. -- 2A02:908:426:D280:313C:C4D9:A3DF:9E2F

Do you mean "tests" or "texts"? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:28, 14 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. This kind of thing falls under Literature, Digital Humanities, and Media Studies. Sometimes all three at once. Depending on the work in question it could also fall under various subdisciplines based on its form, type, and/or content. -- asilvering (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

January 15

Adjusting for both a different currency and inflation

When I see the price of something from a different year or country, I like to convert it to get a better idea of how much that price would mean to me. "¥4000? Oh, that's like $35. $40 in 1965? Oh, that's like $330 today." Simple enough when you're dealing with one of those two situations, but what about both? I'm looking at some prices listed in Japanese yen, published in 1972. How would I convert them to the equivalent of 2022's US dollars? Would I use a Japanese inflation table and today's exchange rate? Would I use 1972's exchange rate, then adjust for inflation? Both methods give me different results, both seeming outrageously high (though I guess that was simply the cost of translated, imported books in the early 70s).--The Ninth Bright Shiner 12:41, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 317: / Line 317: @@
 = January 15 =
+== Adjusting for both a different currency and inflation ==
+When I see the price of something from a different year or country, I like to convert it to get a better idea of how much that price would mean to me. "¥4000? Oh, that's like $35. $40 in 1965? Oh, that's like $330 today." Simple enough when you're dealing with one of those two situations, but what about both? I'm looking at some prices listed in Japanese yen, published in 1972. How would I convert them to the equivalent of 2022's US dollars? Would I use a Japanese inflation table and today's exchange rate? Would I use 1972's exchange rate, then adjust for inflation? Both methods give me different results, both seeming outrageously high (though I guess that was simply the cost of translated, imported books in the early 70s).--[[User:Orannis|<font color="black">'''''The Ninth Bright Shiner'''''</font>]] 12:41, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

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