Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Afghan.Records

Afghan.Records (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Talk page is full of warnings by different users, which they don't seem to have paid much attention too, as their edits really haven't changed. If you click here [1] and Ctrl + F "reverted", you'll see a lot of yellow on your screen.

They just recently made more disruption at Pashtuns. They made a edit [2] under the edit summary "Added some more crucial information about the origin if Khalaj" - except they forgot to mention the part where they removed sourced info about scholarship currently considering the Hephthalites to have been Turks. Another edit just right afterwards [3], where they added the info "This believe has been further supported by The Cambridge History of Iran: Volume 2 which attests the Bactrian tribes to be ancestors of Pashtuns." And suspiciously with no page, so I did a quick Ctrl + F on that source (page 771), and it did not fully support what Afghan.Records added; "The Panjshir then provided a route to the Paropamisadae mountains and to Kabul. The district of this route was Fo-li-shi-sa-t'angna, i.e., *Parshistan. Its inhabitants were probably the Parsii and Parsietae tribesmen - possibly Pashtuns." No mention of Bactrians, and it only says "possibly". Didn't check the rest of the info added, nor the two other edits, they might pose the same issues. EDIT: Their response to this ANI report makes it hard to have WP:GF imo, the evidence is literally right here; "Previously forgot to add the page of one of the 4 sources. Now fixed, if you have any objections go to talk page. Also, accusing me of miss representing sources is a claim and shows one inability to read properly without being biased."

So in other words, they tried to push the same stuff about the Khalaj (minimizing Turkic connection, increasing Iranian/Bactrian connection) when they first started editing and edit warring at Khalji dynasty back in April 2023 [4] (down below), which led to their block [5]. See also [6]

And there was also these episodes;

1. Another citation wrongly used again [7]
2. On 24 June where they randomly commented on others background and tried to back up their own statement with badly cited non-WP:RS [8]
3. On 13 September at Ghurid dynasty [9] they added (cherry-picked) a bunch of non-expert and non-WP:RS citations to push an Afghan/Pashtun origin, completely ignoring the current scholarly consensus mentioned in the article.
4. On 29 November [10] and 10 December [11], they randomly removed sourced info at Ghilji, no edit summary either. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:03, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

They're also edit warring by adding non-WP:RS [12] [13], completely ignoring WP:RS, WP:PRIMARY, and WP:AGEMATTERS. It seems those rules only count when it's information that Afghan.Records doesn't agree with it [14]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:48, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

More source misrepresentation, relying on a WP:PRIMARY source again and which states no such thing [15]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

ARBPIA EC gaming?

User:FoodforLLMs, created on 12 Oct, gnomed 500 edits followed by a launch on 13 Dec into more serious editing on pages on such as the Axis of Resistance and others related to Hamas & Israel (interspersed with ongoing minor editing elsewhere). Iskandar323 (talk) 16:06, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Although I did take it upon myself to fix a lot of articles missing short description in the transport space, you can take a look at my contributions and see that I had a lot of other contributions of varying length and complexity.

You can also take a look at my latest contributions and see many different subjects, including ones that do not relate to history, current events or the Israeli-Arab conflict FoodforLLMs (talk) 16:16, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that's pretty clear WP:PGAMEing. I've revoked their extended-confirmed permission, which they may re-request at WP:PERM/EC after making 500 non-trivial edits. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 20:10, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

If adding a short description is considered a worthless change in the eyes of the administration, then who is going to add descriptions to all these articles?

In my mind it both helps the UX by helping users search, it's a non trivial change because it requires adding 5-6 words which need some thinking, and it aligns with WP:NNH.

However, I accept your decision and I will re-request EC in the future FoodforLLMs (talk) 20:28, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Mentioned this at the appeal thread on AN, but I should say it here as well. It's chickenshit for us to say that editing certain articles is restricted to users who have 30 days of editing and 500 edits... then when they do that (at a significant investment of time and effort) we say "Nuh uh uh that doesn't count" and become upset and offended and throw a hissy fit and accuse them of some vague malfeasance. They did what we told them to do — have an account for 30 days and make 500 edits! We can't get mad at them for failing to realize that this was a lie and there was a secret additional requirement. If we told them to do something stupid, that is our fault, and we should stop telling them that, and we should instead make a rule that says you have to apply for XC and then an administrator grants it. jp×g🗯️ 09:44, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree with JPxG here. It would be one thing if FoodforLLMs was adding and then deleting short descriptions and then reverting and re-reverting those edits until reaching 500 edits. But it seems like FoodforLLMs added genuine short descriptions, which we presumably want added to our articles. If we want short descriptions included in our articles, then adding them is not gaming the system. If we want the 500 article threshold to exclude additions of short descriptions then we should amend the requirements to say so. Rlendog (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean, it's almost as if this were one of a significant number of very obvious and inevitable knock-on effects of the very broad and far-reaching policy language that ArbCom created out of whole cloth in the 'non-ECEs are not welcome on CTOP talk pages" decision, where said complications and consequences of such a massive change to our standards for participation in the project should have been considered and vetted by the community at large (over as long a period of time as it took to get the standard right), as opposed to by just twelve editors making an ad-hoc decision by themselves under a much shorter time constraint. Which in turn almost makes one think that the Committee went far, far beyond their traditional remit of reviewing particularly difficult cases or applying additional restraints for discrete topic areas, and straight into the business of declaring policy by fiat for the entire project. Which almost makes one think that the community at large is well overdue to mobilize to put some much more concretely defined guard rails in place to contain the Committee's ever-sprawling, increasingly limitless perception of its own purview, in order to prevent these kinds of oversteps.

And look, I'm sorry for the passive aggressive tone there--I know it's not typically the most helpful method to express concern on an issue like this. And I do appreciate that these steps (ill-advised and beyond the traditional remit of the Committee as I believe them to be) were taken in good faith. But I remain genuinely mystified as to how the current version of that body thought that this kind of all-encompassing decision (which can only be accurately described as WP:Policy creation from the top, in contravention of this project's most basic rules and oldest cultural values with regard to how consensus is formed) was within their remit, and why the community has not moved to walk back this decision and remind ArbCom of its place within our institutional order.

Is it that it's coming at a time of particular exhaustion, disengagement, and even nihilism about our systems by large swaths of our veteran editor base? Is it that this is actually a change which folds neatly into beliefs about restricting editing to registered users, and a minority (but still significant chunk) of editors actually like the sound of these changes enough that they are willing to turn a blind eye to ArbCom flexing new muscles, by expanding its scope arguably more than it has in any previous case? Or is it that we already let the situation get so far out of control that no one knows quite how to bring ArbCom to heel as a procedural matter? Or am I simply somewhere near the extremes when it comes to concerns generated by this decision?

Honestly, I'm really open to perspectives on this one, because I've been checked out for a few months and when I learned about this decision, I just felt it was wrong on so many levels--pertaining both to how the decision was made and the obvious implications (if not longterm infeasability) of the decision itself, and I am really surprised by the lack of agitation against it. If I'm more on the peripheries of this one than I'd expect to be, I'd like to know. And if I'm not, I'd like to talk with anyone who's interested about how we re-conceptualize our institutional order, to put some brakes on ArbCom's currently unfettered growth in authority. Because this feels as much like a watershed moment for that question as any since I joined the project. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 22:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Hard agree. Actually, I think this is how I got most of my first 500 edits. Originally, I was doing edits that took ages (for example, translating articles) and quickly realized that this clearly wasn't what wikipedia actually "wanted" of me, since I could not possibly make 10 or 20 of those kinds of edits a day. If we don't want minor edits like short descriptions being counted towards extended confirmed, we should significantly reduce the number of edits required. And we certainly shouldn't be removing ec permissions from people who see the game for what it is and play it by its rules. -- asilvering (talk) 03:31, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree with both of you. Things like this are ripe for abuse. JM (talk) 01:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Jumping in a bit late here to point out that ARBECR is a poor example of the Committee creating policy by fiat. In fact the extended-confirmed userright and protection level evolved over quite a long time, starting from an administrative page-level sanction applied to a single article because of rampant sockpuppetry; that was in 2012. In 2015 a community discussion led to the 30/500 restriction being applied to topics related to Gamergate, and later that year Arbcom adopted the same restriction for ARBPIA after a lengthy case with many participants, because of the extremely toxic editing environment in that topic. EC wasn't coded into the software until a year after that, and only after more lengthy community discussions. The only thing Arbcom really did by creating ARBECR is adopt a sanction already in widespread use in the community as an available arbitration remedy, and that's well within their authority. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 16:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Meaning no disrespect Ivan, I nevertheless think that you're missing the forest for the trees here and failing to recognize the particular reasons why this particular ArbCom action was so bold and so far beyond any other superficially similar creation of general sanctions. Yes, EC is an old tool, and yes it has received the benefit of community vetting. For use with regard to mainspace edits in discrete topic areas, not the banning of all new users from every CTOP article talk page. That's tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of high traffic articles which are now reserved as the exclusive purview of the veteran editor, not just with regard to editing said articles, but indeed discussing and providing feedback on their content.

That's rather a sledgehammer approach in my book, but putting aside the advisability of the change, the more important point is that is a use of EC that community never approved (nor even broadly contemplated when institutionalizing EC as a technical feature, as far as I have ever seen. It is not just orders of magnitude above any other action the Committee has ever taken in terms of users impacted, it is categorically different in respect to how it has restricted access to and participation in our consensus process for some of the most heavily engaged with articles on the project. The implications are frankly staggering with regard to onboarding and retention of new editors (at a time when we should be seeking to ease the barrier of entry, not make the potential longterm editor inclined to see the project as inhospitable), not to mention the potential to jam up our process pages (I've seen the phrase "EC gaming" more in the past two months than all the previous years you reference above that EC has existed as a concept) or exacerbate many areas already prone to being our worst echo chambers.

Might the community have endorsed the changes ArbCom imposed upon the entire project here, had they been WP:PROPOSED at say the Village Pump? Personally, I strongly doubt it, but at the same time, it's not impossible. However, all of that is irrelevant to the ultimate concern I am trying to voice here: this was not ArbCom's choice to make, in my opinion. Or if it was, it's all the more cause to take a beat and consider how we counterbalance a body of a dozen editors with the apparent ability to pass what can only realistically be called a major policy on it's own, and the willingness to do so without first consulting the community. The changes here were profound, and the implications (both the intended ones and the inevitable knock-on effects and complications) should have been vetted by the community at a considered pace. ArbCom was designed to address intractable disputes through discrete cases, not set project-wide guidelines for engagement. I stand by the assessment that this is a problem that can only grow from here if we don't find a way to better define the Committee's role and the outer edges of its remit. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 18:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

None taken, I appreciate the discussion. I do think you've misinterpreted the evolution of ARBECR, though. When what later became ARBECR was first applied to ARBPIA (as a sanction under WP:ARBPIA3) part of the purpose in fact was editor retention. The argument then was that the topic had become so toxic that it was a barrier to entry in and of itself: well-meaning new users were going there to edit in good faith and faced so much abuse that they never edited again, or ended up blocked because they had no previous experience with Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes and civility culture. Keeping new users from going straight there and instead expecting them to gain some experience editing less contentious topics was seen as a good thing. It was expected that by doing so, more editors would decide to stick around. Of course the primary purpose was countering rampant sockpuppetry, and besides I have no idea how we would go about measuring retention with and without the restriction, and I'm sure it is true that some potential editors decided not to bother, unfortunately.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, ARBECR is not a general remedy for all CTOPS subjects, but only for those specific topics where Arbcom has specifically approved its use on a case-by-case basis. Arbcom also clarified quite recently that non-EC users are permitted to participate on CTOPS talk pages by making edit requests. But I do fully agree with you that the accusations of "EC gaming" are getting out of hand: it was never the intent of the restriction for anyone to police new users' contributions to dictate what's acceptable and what isn't. It's a simple threshold on purpose and was always intended to be granted automatically and permanently, just like autoconfirmation. Nobody's EC permission should be revoked ever, unless it's because they're being blocked for sockpuppetry. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It's also noteworthy that, out of the two other topics for which ARBECR-style remedies are enforced, one of them, Armenia-Azerbaijan, was actually authorized by unanimous approval of editors in that area and at ANI (WP:GS/AA), not ARBCOM. In my experience working with that sanction authorization, the existing community of active editors is generally quite supportive of the 500/30 restriction. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:56, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No disrespect intended towards anyone, but editors who don't edit these topics just don't understand. Spend six months trying to improve a high profile article in an ECR CTOP and you'll get it. I think that's why most regulars support ECR while non-regulars are more skeptical of it. Levivich (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Tagishsimon incivility at teahouse and unresponsiveness on talk page

FYI

 – Bringing this out of the archives. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Can someone please address Tagishsimon’s ongoing incivility, biting, and failure to assume good faith towards people asking questions at the teahouse? I notice looking through his talk page that he has never once responded to a concern raised there regarding his conduct. I hope I’m reporting this properly, and I think there is a policy requiring me to notify Tagishsimon, which I’ll do but I don’t know the right template (hopefully someone can fix it for me). Cynidens (talk) 23:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi, some diffs would be helpful to give clear examples of this. What particular instances demonstrate this? Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 23:36, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Cynidens - I assume you refer to Wikipedia:Teahouse#Self-styled editor moving pages illicitly and issuing threats? Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I do not want to involve myself in this thread too much, but I recently joined as a Teahouse host, and have noticed the same thing.

Here are some diffs I think are relevant, all of which I've pulled from the Teahouse as it currently stands, so they're all within the last ~3 days:
"Two seconds of thought"
"There's no good faith to assume"
"So, look, start your COI infested article"
"Maybe never. That's volunteers for you."

Here are some diffs of people politely asking Tagashsimon to be friendlier on the Teahouse, all of which went ignored, unless noted otherwise:
Polyamorph's message and Tagashsimon's response
ColinFine's message
Bsoyka's message
Sdkb's message
Ca's message about his lack of responsiveness

I didn't want to go back too far, but this has been ongoing for at least a few years:
Robert McClenon's message (2021)
"I really appreciate your feedback, although some of your language did upset me, I'm only trying to bring value to Wikipedia, and not annoy you!" (2020)
Firestar464's message (2020) - for some reason the diff links wouldn't work
Fram's message (2018)

Going through his talk page, there are dozens upon dozens of unanswered messages from newcomers, draft writers, and people who were apparently directed to his talk page for help with other things. sawyer * he/they * talk 01:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Mattdaviesfsic sawyer * he/they * talk 01:41, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:DENY.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:48, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Forgive me, but I don't understand how that's relevant to the diffs I've sent. I of course completely agree with WP:DENY, but the diffs I've presented show that quite a few people have expressed concern about his bitey conduct towards people at the Teahouse or at AfC. No one expects him to respond to the obviously NOTHERE & troll messages, but there are plenty of good-faith editors, or at least people who we ought to assume good faith of, in those links. I'm sorry if this is causing trouble or wasting time or anything; I've never made a comment at ANI before (thankfully). I'm just trying to address Mattdaviesfsic's request for diffs, and I don't wish to be involved further. sawyer * he/they * talk 01:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

First, I want to keep in mind I'm relatively new and certainly imperfect in comparable ways, and I don't want to dissuade Tagishsimon; I think they are very good in their work in the Teahouse overall.

That said, having seen patterns represented by the above examples, it often feels like they do not particularly enjoy volunteering at the Teahouse. If they have tone problems that need to be addressed—I don't feel comfortable saying whether they do—they are of a sort where the line is never crossed in any given thread, but perhaps it is often straddled when one zooms out. Sometimes, it may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer. Remsense留 07:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Remsense: may seem hostile or bite-y from the perspective of a total newcomer - well it clearly seems hostile and bite-y from the perspective of experienced editors too. Also, see my comment below. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 12:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

(I've tried to phrase my specific thoughts in as unassuming a way as possible, I don't mean for them to detract from anything anyone else has to say.) Remsense留 12:11, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I would also like to provide this not-so-friendly message that User:Tagishsimon left on my talk page a week ago: User_talk:Deltaspace42#Teahouse. The diff. I don't think this behavior is acceptable here on Wikipedia. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 12:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

That message seems completely appropriate; your post was indeed pointless. After you discovered your idea didn't work, you had nothing useful to contribute; yet you did so anyhow. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:47, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, TS's answer didn't provide a solution, either. I've often wished people at Teahouse wouldn't answer questions they can't provide an actual solution for, as other hosts may assume they can skip over that question because they see it's received responses and assume its been resolved. Valereee (talk) 14:44, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes that's a fair point. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 17:49, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@Bbb23, can you clarify that by DENY you mean "this clearly is a troll making baseless complaints"? Because I could absolutely see someone, especially someone new, feel reluctant to complain here because of possible repercussions. The base problem seems to have some validity, to me, and @Tagishsimon appears to be ignoring this. Am I missing something? Valereee (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Not precisely. I was accusing the OP of being a troll/sock whose first and only real edit (their second edit was to notify Tagishsimon) was to post a complaint at ANI about an editor with no diffs and yet wikilinking policies and guidelines. My assumption is they have something against Tagishsimon but can't do anything about it because they are already blocked. I have no comment about the complaints of others about Tagishsimon's conduct at the Teahouse, but the OP has achieved their purpose.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

hey i actually kinda have a horse in this gba barbie game

from what i've seen, i don't think tagishsimon's big issue in the teahouse is outright unhelpfulness, but a lack of civility and a tendency of telling people that they've done wrong in one message, and only telling them what they've done wrong later on, if ever

except in a question i asked about changing my signature that is in archive 1206, but i can't get that archive to load for some reason, but tagishsimon's answer was "the colors are bad, change it", which while true (i checked, the contrast was kinda not good), was admittedly really unhelpful as that was already step 2 of fixing the sig, but i'm not a helpful asker myself, so i won't really hold it against them

that aside, i think tagishsimon would be fine if they answered questions right away and a bit more bluntly, and went to their talk page sometimes

if hoary happens to be reading this, sorry, i didn't figure out how to fix it cogsan _{(give me attention) (see my deeds)} 13:26, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

found out how to make the archive load, sorry for the inconvenience cogsan _{(give me attention) (see my deeds)} 13:33, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I've always taken the approach that the Teahouse should be a place where, as annoying as you may think a question is, a host or editor should always respond in a knowledgeable and kind way. It has been an honor to be a host at the Teahouse though I haven't been there as much lately. It's very important to keep that page free of bite-y and snide comments. New and inexperienced editors are always looking for help and we advertise the Teahouse as a place to go to receive advice in a relaxed environment where hosts and good faith editors are ready to help them. Regardless of what happens with this I would encourage anyone responding at the Teahouse and reading my words to remember that every user is a human being and most think they are doing what's right (good faith). If you are feeling like you can't respond with knowledge and kindness then take a break and let someone else respond. It's okay to not respond. --ARoseWolf 13:21, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree with ARoseWolf here. Teahouse responses should be both informative and kind. Sometimes editors burn out dealing with similar stripes of ignorance over and over (this happened to a very long-term and respected ex-admin not too long ago). This is the converse of the related problem of relatively new editors giving inaccurate advice to extremely new editors, which also manifests at the Teahouse.

Tagishsimon's tone isn't something I'd start an ANI about, but I have considered on multiple occasions making a request on their usertalk to practice a little more kindness. Folly Mox (talk) 14:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The problem seems to be that multiple users have done that, and been ignored.

Teahouse can become very frustrating because those working there respond to the same things over and over again. But for the people coming in there to ask that same tedious question you've answered 1000 times, it's not their 1000th time asking it. When you start to feel like you can't answer that same tedious question one more time without BITING, when multiple people have raised the same concern, it's time to take a break from hosting. Valereee (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

As someone who has a horse in this race, i had a draft decline today by him/her/they for "bullshit-citing" which is wholy unusefull for me and i disagree as the citations are accurate for the draft in my persepective. I beleive he/she/it might have declined it souly on the basis there are alot of citaitons. TagKnife (talk) 13:45, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Their diagnosis of your article appears to be entirely correct. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 13:53, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

The manner Tagishimon did so is in no way appropriate. Being right isn't a license to say something like This seems to be a full-on WP:SYNTHspam article for someone's new code, replete with huge roster of bullshit-baffles-brains cites. Ca ^{talk to me!} 14:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this comment was really unhelpful for me, and I had a discussion with deadspace who helped me understand what changes were needed and the issue with the citations.

Along with that Tagishsimon dropped by a left and another unhelpful comment in the Teahouse where me and deadspace discussed said topic. His comments carry an unhelpful nature and a belittling attitude. TagKnife (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I admit it: I am ok with people being slightly rude to people who have as their sole contributions to Wikipedia self-promotional cryptospam. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 15:40, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

You're entitled to your tastes, but we're not concerned with your tastes. The (class of) behavior still contravenes site guidelines. Remsense留 15:43, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It is better to be honest. Sometimes the 'teahouse style' of supportive communication fails because the new editor comes away with the impression that they can make a few small changes and get their improper article approved. That seems to be what TagKnife has just said above. It is more kind to be clear and get them to stop wasting their time on what will almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor. MrOllie (talk) 16:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

This is getting off-topic, so I won't belabor the question, but—I suppose I don't understand at all the point that's being made here. I wish this sounded less glib, but if you don't think the Teahouse approach is worthwhile, then isn't the correct position "don't volunteer at the Teahouse"? It's not like there's some larger issue that's radiating from it. Not liking the way the Teahouse is meant to handle new users isn't an excuse to try to "tough love" newcomers within. If that's not the point, then it's a point that's irrelevant for this discussion. Remsense留 17:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie: I believe it is always possible to be both honest and polite at the same time, without resorting to more aggressive tone. "...almost certainly be a fruitless endeavor" - you never know, you can't say that before you thoroughly search for the sources yourself and come to the conclusion that the subject is not notable and it would be a waste of time to try and create an article about the subject. And even if you know that there are not enough reliable sources on the Internet to support the notability, you could just say something like "I've searched for reliable sources, but wasn't able to find enough coverage and came to the conclusion that the subject might not meet notability criteria. Feel free to search the sources yourself, but bear in mind that this task would be very difficult." I think the response like this would be both honest and polite at the same time. Deltaspace⁴² (talk • contribs) 17:34, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

As a Teahouse regular, I can say that I'm not impressed by some of Tagishsimon's behaviour displayed at the Teahouse, a lot of which straddles on WP:CIVIL. I can accept occasional blatant tactlessness over at the Help Desk, but that's something I think we should shy away from at the Teahouse. This isn't the first time someone's been dragged over their behaviour at the venue on here, though I certainly hope this is the last time. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I have made 10,598 edits to the Teahouse, and take that welcoming space very seriously. We should bend over backwards to welcome, assist and gently correct good faith new editors who make commonplace errors. It is also true that Teahouse hosts as a group need to deal with new editors who are here to promote either themselves or an employer/client, or to non-neutrally push a point of view. The challenging task for the Teahouse host is to craft a response to such new editors that is both polite and firm. The new editor must be informed in clear, unambiguous terms that they are welcome to contribute neutral, verifiable content, but that they will simply not be permitted to promote anything or grind any axes. I think that Tagishsimon has a good understanding of our policies and guidelines, but too often. the editor forgets the "polite" aspect of the "polite but firm" formula. I hope that the editor gets the message. Cullen328 (talk) 08:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Tagishsimon - section break

I am bringing this out of the archives as Tagishsimon has started editing on the Teahouse again after Valereee had gone on their user talk page and asked them not to. It gives the unfortunate appearance of Tagishsimon patiently waiting for the discussion to be archived before continuing with whatever they want to do. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 01:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Earlier I decided I wouldn't get too involved in this, but having seen the above discussion and Tagishsimon's subsequent activity, I'm concerned. He never responded, either on his talk page or on here directly, which tracks with his long, consistent pattern of completely ignoring other editors' feedback on his behavior. As Tenryuu stated, he seemingly waited until this discussion was archived and continued on the Teahouse like nothing happened, despite Valereee asking him to take a break from hosting. His attitude has not changed either, looking at this comment on the Teahouse made ~6 hours after Valereee's comment on his talk page. Seems like a textbook case of flying under the radar. sawyer * he/they * talk 03:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I have requested Tagishsimon's participation in this section here, and respectfully recommended that they do so prior to continuing to reply to topics at the Teahouse. (Copy of talk page message) Thanks, Daniel (talk) 03:49, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Well since I was up above saying this didn’t look so bad: that post is again substantively correct, but making it was a dumb and inappropriate response to the situation, and going back to TH at all was a very bad idea. I would support a partial block. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 12:04, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of the same lines, but I was going to wait for a response from Tagishsimon before taking action. I'm disappointed by this, as Simon has been very helpful to me in the past in working on articles, but WP:BITE is still an active guideline. As others have said, if you're getting angry at vandals and spammers, the problem is at your end. Either they're good faith but misguided, or they're bad faith and enjoy watching you taking their bait. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention, even if some are acting in bad faith, which I don't believe is the case for the most part, they are human beings and we have ways to deal with bad faith activity that do not end in a positive contributor to this community and encyclopedia being brought before AN/I. It also does not leave the misguided wondering why they asked anything at the Teahouse and reluctant to ask any more questions they may have. It's bad for the Teahouse and bad for the encyclopedia/community. And worse still, all of the biting, snide and unhelpful comments are not necessary. Most hosts and other editors handle questions quite well and civilly. --ARoseWolf 13:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

valereee tbanned pblocked them from the teahouse a few hours ago

it seems tagishsimon's comments around the teahouse (and specifically only the teahouse, their contribs in other talk pages have been either templates or not actually uncivil), have been a bit bitier than before, which is a shame, because i believe the answers were correct

i think this situation can be very easily amended if they just say anything here or in their talk page, but until then, i support keeping the tban cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 14:16, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

It is certainly not the case that Tagishsimon is only uncivil at the Teahouse. He has been incredibly rude to me at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red on numerous occasions, despite other editors reprimanding him. I can't be bothered to dig out the diffs, but they are much worse than any of the links I've followed above. I think he just can't help himself. Johnbod (talk) 15:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

my bad, i was only looking at the most recent examples (as in the ones from after this thread was opened), so consider that support... not actually changed in any way, because this mostly means they have more things to explain

i'm assuming you're referring to this, by the way. i'm really not sure what that was about, and i joke about engvar more often than i probably should cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 16:07, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Meanwhile you have been uniformly civil to Tagishsimon, I'm sure. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 16:32, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

And definitely no one has ever reprimanded you for your behavior at WiR, either. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 16:36, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Oooooh, I wonder who you are! A remarkably partial selection, which doesn't really make your point. Interesting talk page you have. Johnbod (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Wow it's a good thing you linked my talk-page, otherwise people would have trouble finding it. As far as I know I've never interacted with you before, I just read AN/ANI for a perverse kind of entertainment. Following your comment, I browsed ten sections of the WT:WiR archives for posts by Tagishsimon. They were overwhelmingly polite and constructive in those archives, including several hundred comments. You, on the other hand, post much less there, but in my browsing I found two instances of you being a dick, in ways that specifically indicate the hypocrisy of your complaint here. Please don't be a hypocritical dick. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:20, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Both of you stop. We're only keeping this open waiting for TS to come in. No other commentary is needed, and snarky remarks are particularly unhelpful. Valereee (talk) 01:24, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You'd better prepare for a long wait then. Valereee, whatever happened to WP:NPA? Johnbod (talk) 15:34, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

It'll archive again, I'd assume. Sorry, not sure what you're asking about NPA? Valereee (talk) 17:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Seriously Valereee? "two instances of you being a dick, in ways that specifically indicate the hypocrisy of your complaint here. Please don't be a hypocritical dick". What does it take? Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Johnbod, for me personally, it takes someone not stopping when I tell them to stop when they're exchanging increasingly unhelpful remarks. I get that you're saying the last thing they said was worse than the previous thing you said. You both engaged in escalation. My comment was after their most recent escalation, so obviously that escalation...well, escalated it above your previous escalation. I told you both to stop, and btw, the IP actually apologized. Valereee (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

"Actually apologised" to you - conspicuously not to me. But evidently you think that's fine. Is this you escalating now, or me? Johnbod (talk) 03:37, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I forecast Tagishsimon will resume making edits again once this gets archived, with a 10% chance of appealing/complaining the pblock. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 17:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

I suppose that will be less of a problem now that the pblock is in place to prevent them from returning to the Teahouse, but still the refusal to engage here indicates a lack of respect for the concerns of fellow editors. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:31, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: Ok, apologies. If you think it would be better, please feel free to remove my previous comment. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 01:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Nit...valereee pblocked (technical prohibition) not tbanned (requires manual enforcement). DMacks (talk) 16:19, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems as of this revision Tagishsimon has resumed editing. For my part I'm happy if this gets closed as they're no longer going to negatively affect the Teahouse, though if further action should be taken for their refusal to engage with other editors I'll endorse it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 06:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Horse Eye's Back's battleground behavior

Over the past few months, I've observed a concerning pattern of behavior by Horse Eye's Back ("HEB", formerly Horse Eye Jack) that is characterized by vicious battlegrounding through unnecessarily personalized and deliberately aggressive comments. These issues have been observed and called to HEB's attention at least as far back as 2020, and they have not stopped.

I'd like to ask the community to issue a formal admonishment or other action, as you all deem appropriate.

Here's the history:

• In May 2020, Atsme said that "Horse Eye Jack does demonstrate tendencies to bait users and extend discussions beyond where they should go. I think an admin warning would go a long way in helping to get this editor back on track." In June 2020, HEB was blocked by Floquenbeam for "repeated feuding" with a now-blocked editor, with behavior that included "following each other to articles to revert the other, and near constant bickering and templating and insults and harassment."
• In 2021, HEB was told by El_C at ANI that "Horse Eye's Back, you need to take a step back, maybe two. [...] It is combative. It is adversarial. It turns the discussion into a battleground, so you need to start reigning it in better. There's no other way."

In 2023 and 2024, Horse Eye's Back has continued practicing battleground behavior. In recent months, they have done the following:

• After tagging a swath of articles written by TCN7JM, HEB told them that "I clearly said we had a lot of low quality content from unskilled writers and researchers. You are now complaining about those low quality articles from unskilled writers and researchers being tagged." (i.e. HEB is calling TCN7JM unskilled; August 2023)
• Told James500 that their comment was a "Good reminder to never let you write a notability guideline. There's common sense on one side here, but its not with you." (September 2023)
• Called Rschen7754 "a leader of the extremist wing" of WP:ROADS editors. (October 2023)
• Told BeanieFan11 that they "appreciate how proudly ignorant you are of that though". (December 2023)
• Went after Simon Harley for a lightly critical blog post about Wikipedia, and then accused Simon of holding a conflict of interest because of edits made about their secondary school 15+ years ago. (Yesterday)

Last October, HEB told LilianaUwU and Drmies that they would take their feedback about personal attacks "to heart". But I believe that the above evidence, plus a number of fruitless recent attempts to bring concerns to HEB's attention, demonstrate that they will not alter their behavior without formal action. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 01:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Seconded (not independent, as I participated in the discussion on listed buildings noted above, and we've been on opposite sides in a number of AfDs). The critique of Simon Harley is startlingly inappropriate. I'd add that "I appreciate the personal feedback and will take it to heart, do you have any comment on my argument?" reads as aggressive to me, rather than a promise to behave more collegiately in future. Espresso Addict (talk) 02:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

IMO it reads as frustrated but trying to do my best to stay on track content wise. I can definitely see how it would read as aggressive though. I would note that in the same way my worst edits have been cherrypicked you could also cherry pick collegiality, for example from this very discussion before it blew up "Despite being in an argument with Ed on another page I heartily Agee with them here..."[16] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• That is not a now-blocked editor, thats a LTA who was blocked years before I ever interacted with them. I did not attack Harley for a blog post, I pointed out they had gotten our policy/guideline wrong and that the restriction they thought existed actually didn't... We are in fact allowed to use sources which are publicly accessible but not online. I would note that The ed17 has omitted the key context here... They end at Harley, but they only brought this to ANI after this happened [17][18]. I find it baffling that the most important context was omitted from the report. Also just a note I currently have a LTA stalker undoing my contribs en-masse so if my comment disappears its almost certainly them and not a participant in this thread good hand-bad handing, I apologize in advance. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly, screw the LTAs that decide to revert people for no reason. That's a fair complaint, and may be worth a separate discussion. On the subject of this discussion, though, while there are tons of articles that leave a lot to be desired, I feel like you've been going way too far in the direction that all articles better be fixed right now, which includes the battleground behavior you've exhibited. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:31, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  I mean I gave them a reason... I kept opening SPI... Its a poor excuse but I wasn't in a good head space yesterday on account of the LTA. It must have been more than 100 reverts in 24 hours, maybe much more than that (most were repeats and dealt with by other editors who I am forever grateful to). If I may thats never been my editing philosophy, I believe in tagging *right now* but fixing over years. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:37, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Thirded. (Like user Espresso Addict, I am not independent of the situation; I have not participated in the linked discussions, but have interacted with Horse Eye's Back in other talk pages). I have also seen HEB's unnecessarily personalized and aggressive behavior toward editors. Late 2022 they received a warning at this noticeboard for aggressive and inaccurate accusations of COI against an appropriately disclosed paid Wikipedian-in-residence. Over the past month or so, HEB has turned attention to similarly disruptive cross-posting that has involved attempts (1) (2) to make public claims about another the personal information of another user (myself), including expressing belief that I should have "zero expectation of privacy" (this fits the pattern of making disagreements personal, about a user's identity, rather than about the substance of edits or content on Wikipedia); and more inaccurate accusations of COI. Of the inaccurate and aggressive COI accusation, User:DJ Cane said that HEB was "operating on a very liberal reading of WP:COI" and that HEB's "zeal in confronting opinions opposing your own in this discussion is both non-constructive and alarming, and I agree with the discussion provided by @P-Makoto that your cross-discussion comments targeting specific editors is concerning and possibly worth an outside review on its own". Based on this widespread pattern of aggressive, battlegrounding behavior, I support the proposal to issue formal action. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 05:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

"inaccurate and aggressive COI accusation"? I don't think it was aggressive and it certainly wasn't inaccurate. Yes they disclosed (but only on their user page, not on affected talk pages and not whenever they discussed the topic)... But they're also the author of 75% of the article on their employer... See [19]. Disclosure doesn't free you from the other restrictions and expectations... For example "you should make the disclosure on your user page, on affected talk pages, and whenever you discuss the topic;" "you should put new articles through the Articles for Creation (AfC) process instead of creating them directly;" and "you are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly;". Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The "inaccurate and aggressive COI accusation" I linked to has nothing to do with the Harold B. Lee Library page or Rachel Helps (BYU). I linked to an AfD discussion about a different page where you were accosting Heidi Pusey BYU.

In any case, merely to clarify the particular matter you refer to: Rachel Helps (BYU) does in fact openly disclose that on her user page: I wasn't going to edit the page, but a previous copyvio put the page out of commission. I completely rewrote it so a page would exist. My edit history is available for anyone to examine. Other editors looked over the page. Since copyright violation is illegal and should be promptly replaced with non-copyvio content, this—while not ideal—is, I would posit, understandable (as a rare occurrence to not be recommitted), especially since Rachel Helps (BYU) is completely up front about it on her user page, has not repeated that, has made the disclosure on her user page, and has made sure other editors reviewed the contributions.

An occasional, rare questionable moment is understandable amid a long history of responsible editing; Rachel Helps (BYU) has a long history of responsible editing. Frequent, consistent misbehavior is much less understandable, especially when set against the backdrop of a pattern of battlegrounding, sealioning, and hounding; unfortunately, you have a long history of battlegrounding, sealioning, and hounding. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a long history of responsible editing, even my greatest detractor wouldn't argue that more than 1% of my edits are misbehavior. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

People aren’t here to call for you to be subject to an outright ban as you do make plenty of good contributions to the project. We’re here because you have a sustained history of aggression, targeting, and tendency to go off topic in discussions when another editor disagrees with you. Additionally your inaccurate interpretation of COI appears to lead to many of these interactions. DJ Cane (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a single person has called for me to be subject to an outright ban unless I'm missing something. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing this notice to my attention @P-Makoto. To expand on what’s quoted of me there, it is clear to me that HEB has decided that any affiliation at all with the subject matter of an article to constitute a COI violation and they defend their opinion on that and any other subject I’ve seen in an aggressive, non good faith manner. DJ Cane (talk) 18:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I do not wish to devote too much energy to this. I was not the kindest person in the world during these discussions and have since moved on to building the new AARoads Wiki and generally doing other stuff with my life. However I was pinged in the initial post, and the reason I was not kind in these discussions is because I feel so strongly about this, so I'll say this much: this is long overdue. The listed jab at me was especially out-of-pocket because my initial diatribe in that RFC did not mention or even name HEB, but not long after it was posted, he found it within himself to go back and tag a buttload of articles I had written and contributed to a decade ago. Just deeply petty and mean to the point that it could not be construed as anything other than a personal attack. It also feels worth mentioning that relentless sealioning is another card in HEB's deck, so if he starts ignoring the crux of your argument to keep asking for more proof/diffs, just know it's a pattern. I decline to answer any questions or comment further on this matter. Good luck. TCN7JM 06:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Thats sealioning? Good grief... I would say more but what's the point if you're not participating further. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Just so this doesn't get overlooked, I want to point out that the comment from TCN7JM that HEB is replying to was You know this, otherwise there'd be no reason your side has been so heavily pushing for it. C'mon buddy, you're smarter than this. That is a blatant provocation; it's WP:ASPERSIONs against an entire group of editors, WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior, and incivility rolled into one. And HEB's response was to ignore the uncivil second part and just ask for evidence for the aspersion in the first part. That is, by any measure, restrained. Wikipedia is not a casual discussion forum; editors who make accusations against others are in fact required to back them up. If discussion weren't already swamped with so many different discussions, I would say that this is the sort of thing that would call for a WP:BOOMERANG. --Aquillion (talk) 08:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  +1. Diffs without context are my least favorite aspect of ANI. This one is particularly thin in terms of proving any "pattern". PhotogenicScientist (talk) 14:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• I have been personally warned by more than one user from interacting with HEB due to what they characterized as trollish behavior. I don't think any of them have commented here yet. My experience with HEB does not deviate far from their descriptions. Qiushufang (talk) 07:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Considering HEB is one of the reasons roads editors forked, you were better off not interacting with them. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 23:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I don't have much to say except that in the discussion on Talk:Simon Harley I was concerned by the pattern I was seeing. Hostile posts followed by demands for details and clarification and at every point adding new issues is a pattern I've seen in other users before. It is a very negative one as it makes the conversation exhausting for all concerned. If HEB consistently demonstrates this pattern (and I have not examined all the diffs other people have provided, so I don't exactly know how valid their concerns are) then the community should have very little patience for it. The Land (talk) 10:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
• I don't see a great deal here except content disputes. As far as I can see, there is nothing in the difs above extreme enough to warrant ANI involvement. Most users who edit a lot will have edits which display their frustration, and the above difs show nothing more than that. What are we here for? What policies is HEB supposed to have violated? In many cases, established editors are (probably unfairly) given much more leeway than newer users, I don't see that happening here. --Boynamedsue (talk) 11:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Huh? Behaviour during content disputes is very much what 'warrants ANI involvement'. For policies, try WP:NPA for a start. Johnbod (talk) 18:26, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, obviously, but my point is that I don't see anything in the behaviour outlined above that would warrant an ANI case.--Boynamedsue (talk) 19:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Then you don't understand ANI. Longterm serial aggression and personal attacks, despite numerous warnings, a block, and promises to change, are very much what ANI is exactly for. Softlavender (talk) 19:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I honestly don't see a massive degree of aggression there. I have seen cases showing lots more evidence of aggression laughed out of here. --Boynamedsue (talk) 19:46, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• (I wrote this last night, but got tired and went to bed before I could proofread and post) I have to say, although I'm biased, this user seems to get into ridiculously long arguments over ridiculous, petty and irrelevant things with just about everyone a LOT. Not to discount any work that Horse Eye's has done, but the majority of his contributions seem to fall under either (i) maintenance tagging and removal of content from articles, (ii) getting into silly battleground arguments with users and (iii) arguing over the reliability of sources (and, now I could be wrong, but his reliability standards seem wildly off view from what is generally accepted, e.g., stating that there's only a few people in the world who can be cited for all articles on American football, a vast, vastly covered subject which has over a hundred million followers - something that result in the deletion of 99% of articles on the subject).
  

His talk history seems to be riddled with other editors pointing out problematic edits, rude behavior, etc. A few that immediately came to mind (I don't have the time to come up with an extensive list):

From the ANI regarding myself from last January, User:Rlendog kept a list: User:Rlendog/Sandbox6

Several WT:NFL sections (see 43 mentions of his name at one NFL archive, even though he seems to have little interest in the sport (no edits there previously), he appears to have watchlisted it after the ANI about me to complicate and oppose actions there).

Especially unhelpful comments like here, where an attempt to defuse a conflict resulted in him calling me "ignorant" and making clearly unhelpful comments such as No. You're wrong and its as simple as that.

Absurdly long stalling of a DYK nomination, including what seems to be suggesting that being religious means one has a COI on religion and are worthy of receiving topic bans / ANI if they do not follow all COI procedures for all religious subjects and suggesting that users with tens of thousands of edits are SPAs for only editing religion-areas: Talk:Coriantumr (son of Omer). BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:50, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The second half of that statement is key, I said that "You have potential..." and you have largely lived up to that potential in the time since (your editing certainly has improved, you're much less tunnel vision these days) even if I wish you would spend more time in non-NFL topic areas (I love your overwhelming passion for the topic area, but your passion for the topic area is also problematic). The idea that I am only on WikiProject NFL to mess with you doesn't pass the smell test[20]. You are a gifted researcher and there are many areas of the project besides American Football which would benefit from your input. It is news that Rlendog is keeping a dossier on me (complete with calling me a "horses behind"[21]), note that they appear to be misrepresenting the content of a number of those diffs... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@BeanieFan11: I hadn't seen that HEB had called you a single-purpose account without a firm basis. Saying "note that BeanieFan11 is themselves a SPA" for the frankly ridiculous reason "it all looks like sports to me" at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Larry Green is something I'd have added to the OP had I come across it. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 07:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• I have had unpleasant interactions with HEB myself, and the tone of it fits the pattern of what other editors describe above. In this series of edits on a banned editor's user page, HEB seemed to me to have a battleground-y rigidity about wanting to put a "badge of shame" there: [22], [23], [24], [25]. Now I'll say that I know full well that editors disagree on the substance of when to tag or not, but this is a matter of the attitude that HEB brought into that disagreement. One can see a wall of text of editors disagreeing here: [26]. No need to read all of it, but just start at the top and see the attitude adopted by HEB in replying to various editors, not just to me. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I am gonna say here that while I haven't read the OPs diffs, if they're like these ones I really don't think this deserves to be at ANI. Nothing here seems off even attitude-wise and I read the last diff as the majority of editors agreeing with HEB about the underlying dispute. Loki (talk) 19:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I do sometimes bring a bad attitude to talk pages (we all do sometimes), but that talk page doesn't seem to be among them... I certainly give you attitude in the linked edit summaries (not more than is acceptable), but not on the talk page... That actually looks better than I remember it being. None of those twenty comments are problematic unless I'm missing something (and if I am please link the diff). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not going to get into a back-and-forth with anyone here, but editors/admins can decide for themselves what they think of the interaction with Tamzin at the very start of that long discussion. I'm not saying that's the only example, just an easy one for other editors and for admins to look at. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The innuendo isn't helping, I'm not seeing anything wrong with the edits there and the same *can not* be said about many of the edits that others have shared... They really are my darkest moments (have I made 50 bad edits? Almost certainly, but its out of 50k)... What you shared just isn't, I would actually present that series of interactions as evidence that I'm a decent editor (I don't seem to disrespect anyone, I don't bludgeon, I don't make sarcastic comments, I don't make jokes, I don't do anything objectionable as far as I can see). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• HEB has been harassing me since last year (see my talk page archive) and the students who work for me(see 1 and 2). He threatened to nominate us for a topic ban on editing pages about the Book of Mormon on Talk:Coriantumr_(son_of_Omer). He told my student that she couldn't vote in an AfD about a Book of Mormon topic she wrote a page on because we work at the BYU Library (and according to his logic, have a COI on all topics related to the LDS Church). In the same AfD, he wrote that the Book of Mormon "describes a religious fantasy world" and that there are "no 'possibly historical elements' in Mormon scripture". Not only were these comments irrelevant to the AfD, but they were also dismissive of my religious beliefs. HEB refuses to escalate to actually nominating pages he tags with notability cleanup banners for deletion, claiming to want to continue discussion. However, discussion with HEB is very frustrating because he continues to try to enforce his own idiosyncratic interpretation of COI and independent sources. Maybe there is an important discussion to be had about what really can be an independent source about religious topics, but I would much prefer that it happen with people who are not going to make me feel like crap. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Additionally, HEB’s insistence that the Book of Mormon should be treated as a work of fiction is not in line with established Wikipedia guidelines (see: WP:MVF and others) but when pointed out HEB aggressively doubles down on their interpretation. DJ Cane (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  While I don't think anything being said there is excessively aggressive, I do agree that this series of diffs indicates that HEB's interpretation of COI is way too expansive. The idea that working at BYU (or heck, directly for the LDS church) means you can't vote in an AfD about Mormon scripture is IMO nuts. That would mean that rabbis have a COI about Moses. Loki (talk) 21:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  • @LokiTheLiar: Its not working at BYU, its being a paid editor... "you must not act as a reviewer of affected article(s) at AfC, new pages patrol or elsewhere;" if they're paid to edit pages on Mormon scripture then they can't act as a reviewer for Mormon scripture at AfD. The Rabbi is fine, so is the BYU student or professor who isn't a paid editor. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    As I noted in this discussion, paid editors by the BYU Library editing subjects related to the LDS faith (including relevant discussions) is not a WP:COI violation per WP:COIE but if they were to edit articles about BYU or its professors that would be. This is a Wikipedian in Residence program and is even listed as such by Wikimedia. Nobody would bat an eye at paid editors from a state university contributing to pages about state government or adjacent topics. This, of course, is not the topic of this conversation but represents an example of how HEB has adopted a standard of their own to hold editors to that lies outside the standards agreed upon by the community. DJ Cane (talk) 04:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    By "articles about BYU or its professors" do you mean articles like Harold B. Lee Library, Hugh Nibley, Leonard J. Arrington, Merrill Bradshaw, Brigham Young University Museum of Art, BYU Family History Library, Ronald W. Walker, Brigham Young University Student Service Association, etc? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, but a quick review of each of those shows only minor edits (spelling, ref fixes, etc.) by a BYU paid account since about 2021 with the exception of on Hugh Nibley who, while he was a BYU professor was also a major figure in LDS apologetics which may or may not constitute COI depending on a deeper review of the content of those edits using systems we have built as a community to counter problems. In either case, COI issues with those articles doesn’t justify targeting or stirring up trouble in other places.

    Note: I acknowledge a more thorough review could show more but I was looking for accounts with BYU in the name, which appears to be the standard these editors are using as part of how they identify themselves. DJ Cane (talk) 05:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    This isn't entirely on-topic but you need to go back further, for example Rachel Help's first editor at Harold B. Lee Library is in 2016 (diff unavailable do the copyright strike) and there are substantial edits along with the minor edits... So many substantial edits in fact that she is the author of 75.2% of the page. In 2017 she re-wrote the page [27] with a significant new emphasis on awards and positive rankings. You will also note that there isn't a disclosure on most of those talk pages which is required, we have a system and these editors aren't following it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    Whataboutism based on issues 6+ years ago that aren’t ongoing isn’t a very effective argument. DJ Cane (talk) 15:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

    Appears to be ongoing, this edit from the 5th is the sort of edit that really needs to be proposed on the talk page not done directly [28]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    Another prime example of what is not a COI in this situation. DJ Cane (talk) 07:07, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    How so? It appears to be both a paid edit (all of which incur a financial conflict of interest per WP:PE) and to have additional conflicts based on organizational affiliation (in case you didn't catch it some of the removed text concerned the "Museum of Art at Brigham Young University"). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:11, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    The edit summary should be sufficient for a reasonable observer - the portion removed (a collection at BYU) was not relevant to the article (which covers art with Mormon themes and from Mormon artists). The collection could be appropriately added to Brigham Young University Museum of Art but not by @Rachel Helps (BYU) because that would be a COI, or possibly elsewhere which may or may not be a COI. DJ Cane (talk) 07:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. One thing thats become clear from this conversation is that COI might be the most nebulous part of wikipedia, no two editors have provided the same standard or expectations for how COI should be perceived and adjudicated. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:27, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The paid editing standards apply to all edits which have been paid for which for these accounts is all their edits. I think you're getting standard COI and PAID confused. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Voting in an AfD (or RFC or similar) is not what that line refers to. It's being a reviewer. Also that line is from WP:COI not WP:PAID, so it only applies if the account has a COI, which the person you were accusing still very much did not. Loki (talk) 05:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:PE says "Being paid to contribute to Wikipedia is one form of financial COI; it places the paid editor in a conflict between their employer's goals and Wikipedia's goals." We can have a discussion about whether or not AfD is included in "or similar" but AfD is clearly similar to AfC so if its not included some clarification is needed. WP:PAID says "Paid editing is further regulated by a community guideline, Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. This advises that those with a conflict of interest, including paid editors, are strongly discouraged from directly editing affected articles, but should post content proposals on the talk pages of existing articles, and should put new articles through the articles for creation process, so they can be reviewed prior to being published." The paid BYU editors edit the articles directly and create the articles directly. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:10, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• As someone who's sometimes disagreed with Horse and sometimes agreed with him, I think that nonetheless the bedside manner can be a bit lacking. Also, this seems rather bizarre — wtf is that? Homeslice hasn't edited the page in 15 years and has very little current authorship, what could this possibly have had to do with the dispute at hand? jp×g🗯️ 21:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
• This thread cited above by Rachel Helps is absolutely bananas, both in terms of HEB's ridiculous interpretation of COI, and his blatant attempts to cow others into submission with threats of topic bans. The gravedancing on Roxie the Dog's user page cited by Tryptofish (and HEB's refusal to either walk away or admit his edits were not helpful) is also troubling. This pattern of behavior seems to be widespread and unlikely to stop, given their history. Parsecboy (talk) 23:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think the fact that this "pattern of behavior seems to be widespread and unlikely to stop" is the nub of what ANI ought to evaluate here. I recognize that HEB also has a long track record of making good contributions, so this gets into a "net positive" versus "net negative" kind of balance. How that balances out, I'm not yet sure. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• I think a TBAN on LDS and BYU topics, broadly construed, would possibly be a good starting point. It would at the very least stop one area of targeted harassment and put HEB on notice that more sanctions may follow if the behavior does not improve. Softlavender (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  That might not be the best idea, LDS topics are already heavily-skewed in *favour* of the topic, largely due to the fact that the majority of editors who work on it are mormons. 208.87.236.202 (talk) 00:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Having HEB’s aggression/targeting mixed in will not resolve or add any value to that issue. DJ Cane (talk) 01:42, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not convinced that HEB is being particularly aggressive, and I very much am not convinced that their overly expansive interpretation of COI is worse than POV-pushing. Loki (talk) 03:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with Softlavender's proposal that a TBAN on LDS and BYU topics, broadly construed, would possibly be a good starting point. I have seen HEB's behavior become highly disruptive in that part of Wikipedia, since 2022 and up to the present.

  Respectfully, Loki, I disagree with your assessment of HEB's behavior. I think it's important to keep in mind that this is not about these interactions and confrontations in isolation, but how they have accumulated into a disruptive pattern. What most alarms me is how even after receiving a warning for harassing Rachel Helps (BYU), HEB has continued to be sufficiently preoccupied with WP:HOUNDING her that over a year later HEB now is attempting to threaten her students with topic bans. If HEB's behavior were more isolated or didn't have a history behind it, then I could understand not raising it to ANI. However, the extent of it across time, topics, and people lead me to agree with at a minimum Softlavender's proposal.

  Finally, I would say that whether or not HEB's overly expansive interpretation of COI is worse than POV-pushing seems like a potential inadvertent distraction, inasmuch as it may lead us to be dwelling on other people's behavior (POV-pushing) when that can be considered independently of HEB's behavior, and the latter's what this ANI thread is about. If there are concerns about POV-pushing from editors who aren't HEB, then they and their POV-pushing can be taken up in a separate thread or separate threads. For this thread, my comment are about HEB's behavior, and I include the overly expansive interpretation of COI. For what it's worth, if this is referring to Rachel Helps (BYU), my experience has been that she and her students make good-faith efforts to be careful about POV and have been, in the handful of times I have seen missteps, receptive to good-faith feedback on their edits. I've found them much easier and more productive to work alongside than HEB, who so quickly escalates to deploying their overly expansive interpretation of COI to try to disregard and eliminate editors from topics and pages. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 04:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  • I've proposed a formal admonishment below but left it generalized because it's difficult to pinpoint the one true concern. HEB's interpretation of COI is at the root of several—but definitely not all—of the problematic behaviors/concerns identified above, which is broader than LDS/BYU. Still, I'm not sure thatthere would be appetite for enforceable editing restrictions that instruct HEB to bring any COI concerns to the COI noticeboard in lieu of a talk page in any namespace. Regardless, I would personally encourage HEB at least ask general questions about their interpretation of COI at COIN. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 07:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

As a voluntary restriction I could get behind that... The only problem I see is thats its more of a privilege than a restriction and some apparently want to see me punished... Normally you're supposed to go talk page first, "If you believe an editor has an undisclosed COI and is editing in violation of this guideline, raise the issue in a civil manner on the editor's talk page, which is the first step in resolving user-conduct issues, per the DR policy, citing this guideline." but I wouldn't mind being able to start at the noticeboard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, the argument here is that we should just not enforce our own policies as long as someone has a particular POV in a topic area -- I do not think this is a good idea. jp×g🗯️ 09:48, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Like boynamedsue above, I'm struggling to see anything ANI-worthy here. I'm seeing a lot of misrepresented diffs here (the diffs in the OP are not vicious battlegrounding, the COI diffs are not harassment or "going after" anyone), I'm seeing a lot of editors who have previously had content or policy disputes with HEB piling on (in some cases after being pinged here). I would oppose any sanctions on these diffs. Everyone makes snippy remarks now and again, the quality and quantity of HEB's remarks don't seem particularly bad, and while conduct concerns like COI would be better brought to COIN than raised with the COI editors (who will never agree they have a COI), I think this ANI pile-on is worse than the alleged incivility. And FWIW I believe if you put it on your resume you have a COI for it, whether it's education or employment. Levivich (talk) 00:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I would agree, in terms of COI, people with a personal connection to a topic, especially potential economic benefit from its positive reputation, have a COI. That may or may not be the mainstream interpretatiob of COI (I almost never edit in fields where this might be relevant) but it surely isn't an ANI matter to be reasonably wrong here?Boynamedsue (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this interpretation of COI. I do think HEB's interpretation goes beyond that in the cases above, although I also feel there's more nuance to what is COI when it comes to editors from religious schools and BYU in particular. The bludgeoning and targeting are problematic. I think that this might be exacerbated by the frustration inherent in 1v1 and 1vmany arguments where he knows there is PAG/MOS violation to some degree from the "other" side, and they're just not getting it so he tries to approach the problem from different angles or catch them out in some other way. JoelleJay (talk) 20:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree, more nuance in BYU's case: All seem to agree that the school owned and operated by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is — and should be — different from other universities ... the school 'stands unquestionably committed to its unique academic mission and to the church that sponsors it.' ... 'being a university second to none in its role primarily as an undergraduate teaching institution that is unequivocally true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ in the process' [29] Levivich (talk) 22:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• After reading all the various diffs, the only problematic thing I'm seeing is that HEB has a very expansive idea of what a COI is. I don't think that HEB is being particularly uncivil or aggressive in any of the linked diffs. (Given this, I would also like to object to ScottishFinnishRadish's closing of the COI section above, because I feel that section and not this one has the more meaningful part of this complaint.) Loki (talk) 03:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• I don't really see much aggression or incivility; what I do see is that Horse Eye's Back is inexplicably ultra-confident in what they are saying, even when that is absolutely ridiculous to everyone else. This discussion cited above is just bewildering, where they ardently and confidently misunderstand, inter alia, what being a reliable source is, what subject-matter experts are, what the meaning of "niche" is, and probably more still, and yet they still carry on in possibly the most self-confident manner imaginable. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  @AirshipJungleman29: Perhaps "aggressive" is the wrong word to use, and if so I'd be happy to use a different descriptor if you or others have one. "Sealioning" was one potential descriptor I used below. The intent in my use of "aggressive" was to describe that sort of passive-aggressive(?) relentless attack and defense without self-reflection. As I said below, "It's not that HEB is consistently uncivil, but that they frequently exhibit aggressive battlegrounding behavior with individuals who either happen to disagree with them or HEB thinks have violated a Wikipedia policy/guideline." Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Fourthed (or whatever number we're one now). Battleground behaviour is evident as presented by Ed and others. I myself have had a few negative interactions with the editor in question where similar behaviour was exhibited. JM (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I think this is a very self explanatory piece. Baiting and harassment in its finest. [30] — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 03:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not harassment, by any stretch. And I hardly call it baiting. Expressing astonishment that someone reviewed something so quickly is not either. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

No, this is his usual method of trying to provoke an argument with editors of WP:ROADS. Even the language shows high levels of passive aggressiveness. Even the angry "Don't you dare" shows it. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 20:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

COI clarification

Not a matter for ANI. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
On the user talk page @Parsecboy: said "On what planet does having attended a school constitute a WP:COI? Let me be clear: it doesn't."[31] with @The Land: saying "Hello Horse Eye's Back. Like Parsecboy, I can't imagine circumstances where regular, non-controversial editing pages on a school one attended would be a COI requiring declaration."[32] and I just wanted to check whether that was true... Thats not how I've seen COI applied in practice and it certainly clashed directly with what WP:COI says but if Parsecboy and The Land are *right* I am definitely the asshole here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC) My intuition just from reading WP:COI is that making edits about a school that you are attending is probably a COI, but not a school you attended. I would guess that most edits about otherwise obscure high schools are from people who attended those high schools. Loki (talk) 04:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC) The context here includes both edits while attending and edits after attending. I agree with you vis-a-vis obscure high schools but I'm not sure that its ok just because a lot of people do/have done it. For me the biggest aspect is self promotion... Lionizing anything which is on your resume is effectively self promotion, but the seriousness of education COI goes in descending order from post-doc lab to pre-school. IMO high school is about the cutoff for where I'm worried about it. We all know the first thing recruiters do when they see a school on a resume is look it up on google... Which takes them straight to wikipedia. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC) HEB, this ANI has been opened about your behavior, and I'm concerned you created this section to distract/deflect from that. If you want a clarification about our COI policies, WP:COIN is available. Ed [talk] [OMT] 04:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Yes, my behavior... Hence "if Parsecboy and The Land are *right* I am definitely the asshole here." What appears to be deflection is pinging in a whole series of editors I've had issues with over the years to dogpile on me while omitting the actual context of the complaint. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC) There is absolutely no blanket COI between an individual who attends a school and an article on that school. The argument that it does belies a complete misunderstanding of what a conflict of interest actually is. If the editor works for the school in any capacity, then yes, there's a COI. If Horse Eye's Back's interpretation is correct, you can go through the edit history of probably every article on a school and block all of the editors for violating this conception of what constitutes a COI. You could count on one hand the number of editors who have contributed to schools they didn't attend. Parsecboy (talk) 10:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC) There absolutely is a blanket COI, the only question is whether it’s a concern to wikipedia. I think it might actually be you who misunderstands what a COI is. I don't believe I ever called for blocks, I've only asked for disclosure. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Absolute nonsense. Please explain what interests the average student have that conflicts with Wikipedia’s goals (beyond petty vandalism, which isn’t a COI issue). Are you arguing that the average student as a financial interest in how their school is portrayed online? Parsecboy (talk) 11:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC) WP:SOAPBOX points 1, 4, and 5. The only way for them not have a special interest is if school reputation plays no role in hiring or advancement in their field nor do they ever plan on working or seeking employment in such a field... If it’s on your resume you have a conflict of interest with it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Still no explanation about how that applies to students of a school (and numbers 1 and 3 have nothing to do with a COI, and would apply equally to non-students as well). As for 4, the editors in question never worked for their schools, nor were they writing articles about themselves. Are you arguing that they benefit by making their school appear better than it was? If so, that’s so damn thin it’s transparent, my friend. Parsecboy (talk) 12:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC) 1, 4, and 5 not 1, 3, and 4. #4 covers writing about yourself *and* "projects in which you have a strong personal involvement." Yes that is my argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Then your argument is a joke. The idea that anyone could personally benefit from making their high school seem better on Wikipedia is cosmically absurd. Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2024 (UTC) What if you're currently in the college application process? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Lol no. Have you ever worked in an educational system? Heck, even applied to college? Nobody is researching highschools on Wikipedia to make decisions on who gets accepted. We’ve crossed over into parody, right? Parsecboy (talk) 12:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC) "unnecessarily personalized and deliberately aggressive comments" indeed... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC) My comment was in no way aggressive, and the only personalization was questioning your experience in this area, which seems relevant, since you are making an argument that is ludicrous on its face. At what point are you going to stop digging in your heels on this obviously wrong position and admit you have grossly misinterpreted COI? Parsecboy (talk) 13:27, 5 January 2024 (UTC) I worked in college admissions for two years. We used wikipedia daily, its simply not possible to memorize thousands of highschools. I applied to college. Is there any other personal information you would like to know? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC) And what did you use it for, praytell? Surely you are not seriously suggesting that, for two students who have identical GPAs, ACT/SAT scores, extra-curriculars, etc., you would break the tie by checking the Wikipedia article on their high school. If not, then the student has no particular interest in their school's iamge on Wikipedia. Parsecboy (talk) 13:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Not directly but we would assign the school an "academic reputation" score of 1-5 which for prep schools was pretty easy because there are actual rankings but for the random public schools yeah it pretty much was just googling the school and assigning an arbitrary score. We had less than 20 minutes to review their entire file including essays and letters of recommendation. I don't know what you're imagining but its not a terribly fair or scientific process. In my own professional life I have had a recruiter quote the wikipedia page for my college to me so I'm assuming he looked at it. Maybe that is what colors my perception of COI, I know how much it matters. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC) WP:COI says that it's a policy that should be applied with common sense. To my mind, what school someone attended is only loosely an 'interest', let alone one that is likely to come into conflict with anything else. The idea that editing one's secondary school is effectively self-promotion on the grounds that some future employer might care about what the Wikipedia article about the school says. This would be quite an innovation for our COI policy. As I said, there might be some edge cases where the school or edits about it are particularly controversial. But that's not the case here and there's no justification for jumping on Simon Harley's talk page with threatening messages. The Land (talk) 10:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC) When does it become a COI which matters then? When you're editing your thesis advisor's page? Also note that these edits are controversial because the articles (List of headmasters of St. Bees School and History of St. Bees School) don't actually appear notable... Making a page for a non-notable thing you have a COI with strikes me as a problem. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:07, 5 January 2024 (UTC) WP:COI says that Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest [emphasis mine] and later How close the relationship needs to be before it becomes a concern on Wikipedia is governed by common sense. I do not think "I previously attended this school" is a conflict of interest which requires disclosing. If it is, I strongly suspect that the vast majority of substantive edits about schools across the entirety of wikipedia are in violation of it! Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 10:36, 5 January 2024 (UTC) @Caeciliusinhorto-public: what about currently attends or works at the school? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC) "Works at the school" I would consider the same as working at any other institution; WP:COI explicitly says that being an employee of an institution is (not just can be) a financial conflict of interest. Even if someone is editing an article about their employer off-the-clock and not as part of their job, I would think it should be disclosed, though such editing might still be completely unproblematic. "Currently attends" I think is okay and generally does not require a COI disclosure; I suspect that there might be less community consensus on that though. Fundamentally I just don't think that attending or having attended a school gives the average person any particular interest in presenting a school in a particular way that would conflict with their duties as a Wikipedian. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 11:53, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Is there a difference to you between a public school where education is freely provided and a private school at which the student has a strong financial relationship with the school? (or for that matter a public school which charges tuition) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC) I can't see how it makes a difference. I can't see how an editor who went to a fee-paying school should have a conflict of interest wrt that school any more than an editor who shops at Walmart has a conflict of interest wrt Walmart. If we consider that a disclosable COI, then Talk:Walmart is improbably light on required COI disclosures! Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC) They don't seem to be the same relationship... Surely a business owner has a COI with their employee in the way that a employee has with the business owner? Its not only the employee who has a COI. If the school pays you 45k a year you have a major COI with the school, so why would there be no major COI if you pay the school 45k a year? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:00, 5 January 2024 (UTC) If the school pays you 45k a year you have a major COI with the school, so why would there be no major COI if you pay the school 45k a year? Why should these two situations be equivalent? If you are employed by someone, they have the power to punish you (up to and including firing you) if you do things which reflect negatively upon them, and to reward you with bonuses or promotions if you do things which help them make money (and, of course, if you do things that help them make money then they are more likely to remain solvent, and thus you are more likely to keep your job). If you regularly pay an organisation thousands of dollars, they have no such power over you. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:38, 5 January 2024 (UTC) So you're saying that employers don't have a COI with their employees? Its only employees who have a COI with their employer? I don't think thats right, if I employ Rudy Giuliani as my lawyer I have a conflict of interest with Rudy Giuliani. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC) No, that's not at all what I said. I haven't got a strong opinion on whether a business owner prima facie has a COI wrt all of their employees (certainly business owners have a COI with respect to at least some of their employees, but would for instance Jeff Bezos have a COI with respect to any random person who happened to work as an Amazon delivery driver? I'm not convinced he would). Even if we accept arguendo that they do, the school you go to is not your employee, even if you are paying them directly through school fees rather than indirectly through your taxes. A fee-paying school is a business and their students are customers. I do not think that people in general have a COI with regards to businesses they patronise which requires disclosure, even if their financial commitment to that business runs into the tens of thousands of dollars. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 15:14, 5 January 2024 (UTC) I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that simply attending a school could give someone a COI. If we included that, why not include, I don't know... "anyone who lived in town X" or even "anyone who lives in country Y"? Are we going to ban every New Yorker from editing New York? Should every American citizen be considered to have a COI with regards to WP:AP2? Or (and this is the classic example to me), would we consider every citizen of Israel, and every citizen of Gaza and the West Bank, to have a COI with regards to WP:CT/A-I? And maybe every Jew and Muslim to boot? For that matter, what about religious beliefs in other contexts? Could anyone with a strong religious belief (or staunch atheism) be considered to have a COI not just with regards to their own faith, but everyone else's? Should we extend that to everything their faith has weighed in on - which, for some major faiths, could be almost everything? There are clearly some relationships that an observer notionally could conclude could incline someone to bias that don't rise to the level of a COI. While financial COIs are of course not the only ones that exist, I think that it's reasonable to say that something should rise to at least the level of a serious financial COI (ie. something that a reasonable observer would assume is as significant to the editor as large amount of money, just based on whatever detail is known about them.) People could be presumed to have that sort of COI with regards to their family members or the like; but I don't think you'd usually presume that level of COI with regard to your hometown, nation of origin, alma mater, or the like. Even religious belief - which might rise to that level - isn't usually considered sufficient for a COI. (Though that said, I personally don't think it would be amiss to treat people whose nationalistic, political, philosophical or religious beliefs rise to the level of "as important to them as life itself" as having a COI with regards to core articles about those things - but it would be a very difficult thing to practically enforce. And that is stuff that is way more weighty to most people than their alma mater.) --Aquillion (talk) 11:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC) Yes all of those people have conflicts of interest, they just aren't significant enough to matter most of the time. Thats the nuance that I think most people miss about conflict of interest, we are all immeshed in a massive web of conflicts of interest. Each of us has nearly innumerable conflicts. I'm interested in where you would draw the line, where does education become a significant COI? Professors you had? Thesis advisor? Former lover/professor? When you donate to your alma matter? When your kids goes there? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Admonishment proposal

About a dozen editors above have voiced concerns with HEB's behavior; two editors called it "sealioning", which to me looks to be an apt descriptor in the general internet sense. It's not that HEB is consistently uncivil, but that they frequently exhibit aggressive battlegrounding behavior with individuals who either happen to disagree with them or HEB thinks have violated a Wikipedia policy/guideline.

Unfortunately, HEB is not understanding those concerns, as he has chosen to dispute nearly every negative characterization brought up in the above discussion.

As such, I'd like to move for a formal admonishment. As part of that, HEB would be warned that if their battleground behavior continues, admin action will be taken and/or editing restrictions applied.

Pinging the users who have commented above: Espresso Addict, Horse Eye's Back, LilianaUwU, P-Makoto, DJ Cane, TCN7JM (apologies for pinging per the end of your message, please don't feel like you need to comment again), Qiushufang, The Land, Boynamedsue, Johnbod, Softlavender, BeanieFan11, Tryptofish, LokiTheLiar, Parsecboy, Caeciliusinhorto-public, Aquillion, Rachel Helps (BYU), JPxG, Levivich. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 07:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support my own proposal. I'd be thrilled if this formal action curbs HEB's worst impulses and sets them on the path of being a better collegial editing partner. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 07:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Like I say above, apart from the COI stuff I'm not seeing it. Loki (talk) 08:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support if it gets them to stop being needlessly antagonistic about literally anything and everything. Qiushufang (talk) 08:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support Reading through Rachel Helps' talk page archives, this seems like pretty clear sealioning behavior to me. There are countless warnings of their behavior, yet also many people that have come to the users's defense - WP:UNBLOCKABLE comes to mind (although a formal admonishment seems the best option here). I would recommend HEB try to focus on other activities on the wiki besides posting COI notices/enforcement on user talk pages. Darcyisverycute (talk) 09:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Just a note that while I do not meet the definition given in the link both Ed and Parsecboy do. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support -- like I said, the bedside manner could stand to be improved. (As a parenthetical note, I didn't get a ping from that comment above, even though I was pinged with the {{u}} template -- maybe it failed?) jp×g🗯️ 09:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  What's astounding is that the people who personally warned me (multiple) about HEB haven't even commented yet. The fact that multiple complete strangers who I had zero prior interactions with would individually send me warnings about another editor's behavior is insane. I have been editing for as long as HEB practically every other day for five years and have gotten into good deal of disputes, but this is on a whole other level. Qiushufang (talk) 11:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  If you want my blessing to link those warnings and ping them without anyone being able to call "canvassing" you have it, I have nothing to hide and we've certainly got a party going already. Would also like to know if you're going to open a SPI anytime soon with what I brought to your talk yesterday, if you're not let me know and I'l open the SPI. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - as written - admin action will be taken and/or editing restrictions applied - is too vague and doesn't offer any specificity. Admin discretion would allow an admin action to be just another warning, and what editing restrictions are you asking for? You stated there is a "concerning pattern of behavior" by HEB, "and they have not stopped", but this proposal falls short of actually stopping and/or curtailing that behavior. Isaidnoway (talk) 10:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
  • @Isaidnoway: I didn't think there would be support for specific sanctions as we are talking about a broad pattern of behavior. The hope is that a final and formal warning shot would set HEB on a better path, while also giving admins broader leeway for tackling issues in the future. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I believe that having this ANI opened is punishment enough and should give HEB plenty to think about. No formal warning required. Tooncool64 (talk) 10:13, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Tooncool64: Were the six attempts I linked in the OP, plus the plethora of time HEB has disputed negative characterizations in this discussion, plus the multiple times HEB has been discussed on this noticeboard, not proof that informal curbs aren't enough? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, I don't see any behaviour that would warrant a sanction of any type. I think we are perhaps dealing with users who are over-estimating what is required in terms of politeness to suggest WP:NPA excludes any display of exasperation at all.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:55, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - the diffs are not frequent, not aggressive, not battleground, and not sealioning. Levivich (talk) 13:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support, with the additional suggestion that further formal action be proposed and discussed. I agree with Isaidnoway that the proposal as written risks doing too little to dissuade HEB. HEB has been warned here at ANI previously (see Drmies's comment at the end of this thread that I linked in my "thirded" comment about HEB's persistent, disruptive, and targeted behavior against a user, including accusations based on inaccurate interpretations of COI, stating Horse Eye's Back, you need to back off. This is your clear warning: drop the stick.), and has chosen to persist. HEB's behavior has been long-term over the past couple years, widespread across topics, disruptive to editing, beyond mere expressions of exasperation, and unrelenting (if anything HEB has expanded the scope of behavior, e.g. see how targeting Wikipedian-in-residence Rachel Helps (BYU) in 2022 has turned into targeting students working for her in 2023–2024). Formal action should be taken. As far as my suggestion to propose further formal action (beyond the proposed admonishment), in the linked thread Awilley suggested a one-way interaction ban. Maybe some one-way interaction bans would both stop HEB's targeting of some users and provide a clear disincentive against further behavior like this. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:36, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support with the additional note that I’d like to see one or more specific consequences outlined in this forum for if HEB continues the unwarranted aggression, targeting, etc.

DJ Cane (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Further comment: there’s a lot of people voting oppose who are right in saying that none of the concerns brought up violate any policy on their own, but at least in my opinion these editors are taking issues individually as if they are occurring in a vacuum. They are, of course, right if that was the case but it simply isn’t. There is a clear pattern of hostile behavior from HEB stemming several years and some of the sealioning reported by other users was later exhibited in this discussion (such as when HEB tried to justify themselves multiple times using years old edits). Furthermore, this crowd has started what appears to be an unjustified discussion claiming canvassing is present here simply because there are editors who take issue with HEB’s behavior. There is a lot to unpack from what has been said in this discussion, but none of the “side quests” should be used to distract from the issue at hand which has already been formally warned against at least once yet continues.

DJ Cane (talk) 15:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm unconvinced that the totality of evidence here rises to the level of a sanction. FWIW, called Rschen7754 "a leader of the extremist wing" of WP:ROADS editors. is hardly false, is it? Black Kite (talk) 16:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Black Kite, just because something isn't false (and it is false) doesn't mean it should be said. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 16:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Well, one can argue that either way, but it's certainly not an unreasonable position to take. I would expect a sanction to be applied where aspersions had been made that were clearly unreasonable. Black Kite (talk) 16:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Also, calling somebody a religious or political extremist may be classified a personal attack. Calling someone an extremist in terms of their interpretation of wiki policies is definitely not a personal attack. HEB wasn't suggesting the user belonged to some secretive far right sect, he was saying that his interpretation of the rules was a minority view at the far end of a continuum. From the COI squabbling on here, I get the impression that HEB might well be "a COI extremist". I trust nobody will be reaching for the New Section button upon reading that? Not even HEB himself.Boynamedsue (talk) 16:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Well, precisely. Rschen's interpretation of the sourcing required for ROADS articles was certainly at the extreme end of a continuum, which is why I don't think HEB's comment was unreasonable. Yes, HEB could perhaps wind in the level of their comments sometimes, but as I said above I don't think that they're running past the levels required for a sanction. Black Kite (talk) 16:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Black Kite: Given the way the word "extremist" is almost always used outside of Wikipedia, which is to say that it's used to describe terrorists and the worst of people's political/religious views, it's a heck of a word to use when you merely disagree with a person's stance on a Wikipedia policy. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  I can't say I would like to be called an extremist in anything, and I bet rschen wouldn't either. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 17:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Saying stuff another editor doesn't like isn't what a personal attack is. This comment is entirely about on-wiki behavior, and it's also, frankly, obviously true. Loki (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Because calling someone an extremist isn't a personal attack? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 17:54, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  If a description of their behaviour is at one end of a measure of on-wiki behaviour, absolutely it isn't. In fact I'm slightly bemused that it could be taken as such (unless it's untrue, of course). Black Kite (talk) 18:43, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm reasonably certain Rschen7754 has called me an extremist on notability at some point - and if they haven't, someone else certainly has. So long as the allegation is made in an appropriate location - and HEB's was - such allegations don't amount to personal attacks. BilledMammal (talk) 03:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Are you thinking of this from (ironically) @The ed17: in that same conversation "That's a pretty extreme stance."[33] Horse Eye's Back (talk) 09:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Could be, not sure - although I’m surprised to see The ed17 make such a statement given their expressed concerns about similar wording; I hope they will now be willing to withdraw those concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 14:17, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  "Extremist" is almost always used to describe the worst of society. That the word is derived from "extreme" does not mean that they are similar in use or impact. I'd invite you both to re-read what I posted above, where I called out the problems with using "extremist" in that context, and continue on to explore how the two words are used outside of Wikipedia. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  I find that very disappointing and hypocritical; there is no significant difference between the two statements, with the Cambridge Dictionary even clarifying that a "group of extremists" is equivalent to "people with extreme opinions". BilledMammal (talk) 18:06, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  I invite you to log off the dictionary, walk into a crowd of people, and see what happens when you accuse one person of being an extremist vs. accusing another of stating an extreme opinion in a social context. In any case, we're now off the topic of this ANI. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  I genuinely doubt I will get a different response to saying someone is an "extremist on non-political topic X" than I would for saying some has an "extreme opinion on non-political topic X".

  I also disagree this is off topic; it is appropriate to consider your behaviour here as the filer, including whether you engaged in the same behaviour you are objecting to others engaging in. Regardless, I’m happy to drop this now; we’re not going to agree, and I believe I’ve made my point. BilledMammal (talk) 21:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, I think the difference is that "extremist" is seen negatively when it refers to political issues, but elsewhere it can just be descriptive. Black Kite (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  I would have absolutely no problem with it, indeed I've described myself as an extremist on several occasions in terms of questions such as teaching practices and views on mobile phones. I'm wondering if this is perhaps a difference between linguistic variants.Boynamedsue (talk) 17:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  You're absolutely free to call yourself an extremist if you like. I don't know whether it comes down to linguistic variants, but from what I gather, in the context of the diff, and in the context of calling others extremists on Wikipedia, doing so has registered as a personal attack because it shifts the conversation away from the disagreement and the interpretation being wrong, toward the character of the person, suggesting that they are are wrong not because of a different perspective or disagreement, but because they are, as a person, "extreme" and therefore unreasonable and illogical, not to be reasoned with as a thinking interlocutor but instead dismissed as a force of nature. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 01:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support, of course. While my interactions with HEB have been mostly positive, I understand that it hasn't been the case for most, especially the roads crowd. I would say further discussion of sanctions might be needed, as well. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 16:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support: I want HEB to stay an editor for years to come–they've been kind and productive with me for some time now–but polemic comments on LDS issues in particular (like this one) seriously worry me. A formal warning is often the least invasive but effective measure, and I hope this is the last of the issue so we can all go back to working together. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I've seen some of the fictional character articles coming out of paid BYU accounts. Reasonable people can disagree, but I think some push back against minor character articles is reasonable. Big Money Threepwood (talk) 20:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Leaving aside a few issues which I assume will lead a closing admin to discount this comment (that this ignores the conversation above in favor of a content dispute, that this account knew Wikipedia policies from its first edit one month ago, and that this account could also make references to edit summaries, original research, markup, and wikicode a ~week later)—is your use of the phrase "fictional character articles" meant to refer to figures from the Book of Mormon? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 22:11, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  The disagreement amongst some editors as to whether the Book of Mormon is a work of fact or fiction is the single most alarming aspect of this entire dispute. Levivich (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

  Well, myth or fiction. I don’t even think the BYU editors are trying to argue the Book of Mormon should be treated as fact in this context, though one can reasonably expect that their religious beliefs include such. In fact, the BYU editors have responded favorably to rewrites that improved POV. DJ Cane (talk) 00:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Having been the editor involved in that example of favorable response, I can comprehend the trepidation Levivich expresses, but I want to emphasize that the gracious response to edits I've made (including edits that connect Book of Mormon content to the early American context) has left me optimistic that these editors are willing to meet the Wikipedia project on its terms as NPOV goes. I think the way DJ Cane assesses the situation is spot on. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 07:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Do you agree my interpretation of policy on my first edit was correct? Please help me fix that page, as someone reverted me for not understanding policy correctly there. I thought user generated content wasn't reliable, but was told there is an exception for video game walkthroughs. I left it be because unsure. I try to read all of the linked policies but there are so many Big Money Threepwood (talk) 03:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per the comments that I and numerous other editors have said above. I agree with some of the concerns expressed here, that this may not be a strong enough outcome to ensure adequate compliance. On the other hand, I think it's acceptable to go a little gently at this point, in the hope that HEB will actually take this to heart, as he has already suggested above that he might do in some form: [34]. As for those editors who oppose the proposal (a significant number of whom I recognize as perennial opposers of any criticisms of civility failures by anybody), I do think it's worth noting that HEB did say that, and this is a pretty gentle sanction to place: it's basically just asking that he do as we expect all editors to do, but with the added condition that he has been warned that significant failure will come under administrator discretion. (And I'm not buying the arguments for oppose that rest on the desire to strengthen one "side" in the LDS POV dispute.) I see this as a kind of WP:ROPE, although given the past history, the rope will not be infinite in length. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:03, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support, pretty much as per Tryptofish. I definitely have stronger views about what constitutes acceptable conduct than some of the other people in this discussion, but I'm also pretty certain that HEB's conduct if continued will be a disruptive drain. I could probably be persuaded to support a stronger sanction, but have nothing in mind to propose myself. I would prefer not to conflate patterns of behaviour that occur across articles with limited issues about Mormonism. Hopefully HEB will read this discussion, regardless of whether this specific proposal passes or not, and take peoples' concerns on board. The Land (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. I’ve been very concerned about BYU paid editing. I think it’s inherently a COI issue, and I’ve brought this up before. These are people being paid by the Mormon church to edit articles about Mormonism. I think in general BYU funding editing is a good thing – the Mormon church has great records, and I’m sure most of their edits are helpful – but we do need to recognize these folks do have a COI, and we do need to oversee these edits.

HEB may be too aggressive, but we shouldn’t restrict anyone checking these edits from being able to do so. These edits are COI edits and need to be checked, and we need this oversight, even if it’s occasionally a bit aggressive. Valereee (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Valeriee, "paid by the Mormon church to edit articles about Mormonism" isn't really a fair representation of what's going on. Rachel Helps, if I remember correctly, is paid by the BYU library to make some of the unique resources of that library available to Wikipedia. Yes, the library is owned by BYU, which is owned by the church, but the degrees of separation matter. There's no religious leader higher up in the church telling her what to do or reviewing her edits. I hope you'll take a few minutes to read her user page where she makes that relationship clear and is very upfront about her COI and POV. In practice she gets more scrutiny than many other editors in the topic area (probably because of her username). Whenever I review her edits I find careful, helpful, gnomish editing. I've seen a number of somewhat contentious issues where she offers helpful resources or ideas but holds back from !voting or taking a side. For example I remember her staying fairly neutral in discussions about eliminating the word "Mormon" after the LDS Church asked its members to stop using the word.

I also remember when HEB started stalking and hounding Rachel. It went waaaay too far. I'm traveling and on mobile right now, but if the diffs aren't linked somewhere above I can track them down if you want.

Anyway, you can research and form your own opinion. I just wanted to share my own findings. ~Awilley (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

"There's no religious leader higher up in the church telling her what to do or reviewing her edits." I don't think thats true, for example recently they've been focusing on The Book of Mormon to get wikipedia ready for a new Sunday school curriculum on the Book of Mormon which is being rolled out. So these edits are coordinated with the Church at large and meant to advance its purposes. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I consider it more likely that, being a Latter-day Saint who works at BYU, Rachel Helps (BYU) noticed that the LDS Church's Book of Mormon Sunday school curriculum (which has been announced ahead of time for years) might prompt more attention by people on Book of Mormon topic Wikipedia pages. I'd compare it to how, say, for example, with a U. S. presidential election on the horizon in 2024, there are probably American Wikipedia editors who are giving more attention to U. S. presidential election articles. I consider it a win for Wikipedia if responsible and responsive editors like Rachel Helps (BYU) and the students she trains help us as experienced editors get out ahead of masses of lay members (who, less familiar with policies like Reliable Sources and NPOV, might want to add citations to things like the Sunday School manual or scripture verses, rather than to the published scholarship Wikipedia should cite). P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

They plural not they singular. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

If you don't like me using the singular "they" to refer to you, I am sorry about that; I didn't see information on your HEB user page about what pronouns are appropriate so I figured using gender neutral terms was best. But I don't understand how disagreeing about whether or not "they" can be singular is ultimately relevant? P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You didn't refer to anyone using they and you have no basis for thinking anyone here has a problem with using singular they. If you don't understand what heb meant, why not ask instead of low key suggesting heb has a problem with gender neutral pronouns. Levivich (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I think something has been lost in translation, I prefer the singular they (but don't make a big deal when people use he/she, the OG account name made a lot of people think I was a man because they read it as a reference to Jack (name) not Horse-eye jack) for myself. What I meant there was that by "they" I was referring to the whole ecosystem of paid BYU editors, not just Rachel Helps (BYU). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I think that talking about how Rachel Helps (BYU) goes about this covers the matter. All the other BYU paid editors are employees of Rachel Helps (BYU) whom she supervises, as she discloses on her user page: I employ BYU students who edit Wikipedia under my supervision. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Awilley, I have read her user and those of multiple of her interns. I've read multiple articles created and edited by her interns. I have zero doubt that Rachel and her interns are operating completely in good faith. That doesn't mean they don't have a COI, and it doesn't mean we shouldn't regard their edits as COI edits and give them the additional attention we'd give the edits of any other well-intentioned COI editor. I wish HEB would be less aggressive and I have no problem with us telling them so. What I object to is the threat of a t-ban from LDS. Valereee (talk) 11:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

If it's any reassurance, only Softlavender and I have suggested any kind of topic ban. The actual proposal before us states that HEB would be warned. Are you willing to support a warning in which ANI tells HEB to be less aggressive, on not only Mormon studies topics but in the other topic areas addressed in the OP and some of the comments that followed? (e. g. targeting user Simon Harley and contributions made citing the Dreadnaught Project, condescending interactions with users on football topics, etc.?) And as far as COI goes, I find that I agree with DJ Cane: Having HEB’s aggression/targeting mixed in will not resolve or add any value to the process of paying responsible attention to the activities of paid editors. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:22, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

P-M, the proposal goes on to say As such, I'd like to move for a formal admonishment. As part of that, HEB would be warned that if their battleground behavior continues, admin action will be taken and/or editing restrictions applied. A lot depends on the closer, but depending on the close language, with a close that includes that language, an individual administrator could indef for a minor infraction and require agreement to a restriction for unblock. Valereee (talk) 18:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

There's no religious leader higher up in the church telling her what to do or reviewing her edits. Reviewing her edits, maybe not, but telling her what to do? Absolutely. That's the issue with BYU: policy is set by LDS Church. BYU faculty/staff/students/alum have raised these concerns for years; somewhere up above I linked to a newspaper article about it, and it's discussed in the Wikipedia article about BYU. Theirs is a very widely known and ongoing issue with LDS Church constraining academic freedom at BYU. [35]. We even have a whole article about it, Academic freedom at Brigham Young University. As I understand it, BYU's mission is to support/promote the LDS Church and BYU employees are required to further that mission (or at least prohibited from impeding it). This is what makes BYU unlike other religious-affiliated universities. It's not just like "oh we're a Christian university" by vague values or precepts or history, it's a university actually wholly owned and operated by a church. That's more like a seminary than a university. Levivich (talk) 21:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per above, particularly Black Kite. BilledMammal (talk) 02:55, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Come on, BilledMammal. If I said you were an extremist regarding Wikipedia policies, and doubled down on it being the truth, you wouldn't like that, huh? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Your select responses to opposition votes feels borderline WP:INAPPNOTE. Tooncool64 (talk) 04:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  I am 90% certain you meant to link to WP:BLUDGEONING. Loki (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, thank you for the correction! Tooncool64 (talk) 06:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  See the reply that I made to one of your earlier comments in this section. BilledMammal (talk) 04:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Given both the scope of the OP and the breadth of the issues raised semi-independently by many different editors above, I don't think it's appropriate to suggest that any kind of sanction or admonishment here should hinge on whether one agrees with HEB's interpretation of COI in one narrow context. First off, even just looking at what has been shared in the diffs here, some of their comments in that area are deeply WP:battleground and entirely inappropriate for a collaborative project, even if (and it's a big if) we adopt their view on the COI issue. top to bottom. I share the concern of others here that many of these comments seem to come as an effort to cow other editors once a dispute has begun, with comments rapidly escalating into needlessly personalized comments (that is to say WP:PAs, really), and accusations of impropriety seemingly designed to undermine the rhetorical opposition's credibility.
  But even if we dismissed the entire cluster of issues connected with their disputes surrounding accusations of COI, there's still more than enough here to warrant community response: and an admonition is an incredibly weak form of response at that. However, perhaps the factor that most prompts my support, as an uninvolved but concerned community member, is the massive display of WP:IDHT throughout this thread. HEB is not categorically incorrect that a high degree of productive edits and many edits made in less disruptive interactions go towards buffering against criticism when their conduct is found to be sub-par. I for one do consider those ameliorating factors when forming an opinion about whether the time has come for community action. But only up to a point. And when I say "up to a point", I don't mean that we should measure such things as matter of a ratio of volume of good edits vs. disruptive behaviours. Rather, I mean, there are certain thresholds that once passed, require the community to intervene. And there's evidence of plenty of that above. Honestly, I might very well have supported a sanction with more teeth under the circumstances, and I feel a warning at the least is more than appropriate. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 03:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, just not enough there. I'm particularly concerned about the characterization of the BDS and LDS edits as "harassment", which by my reading is sufficiently baseless to qualify as WP:ASPERSIONS. Editors can disagree over what qualifies as a COI; doing so is not a basis for sanctions. The discussions should have been taken to WP:COIN by the editors involved; while in HEB's position I would have gone to COIN myself, the fact that the people on the other side of the debate didn't go there to seek affirmation for their actions suggests that they were not completely confident that that affirmation would be forthcoming, which implies that the dispute fell into the grey area that forms reasonable disagreements over policy. COI itself is an extremely important policy that often has vague borders at its edges; I'd be opposed to anything that might create a precedent that editors can essentially ignore COI concerns and then accuse the editors raising them of harassment if the issue doesn't disappear. We have valid resolution channels to resolve those disputes, which everyone involved was aware of, and which and (as far as I can tell) nobody here was confident enough in their position to go through them; therefore, it was just a protracted policy dispute, which isn't sanctionable. I'm also deeply concerned with the characterization of edits here as sealioning; Wikipedia isn't a casual discussion forum. Sealioning is a serious problem in places where the demand for sourcing or evidence is inappropriate and is being weaponized to place undue burden on one side of a discussion, but here on Wikipedia, you are, in fact, required to produce evidence for most major assertions you make related to editor conduct or article content decisions; if someone repeatedly asks you to produce evidence you've already produced, that would be misconduct, but that's not what I'm seeing in the discussions linked above. Looking over the evidence above, the people interacting with HEB were often making sweeping WP:ASPERSIONs with no evidence, for which a request for evidence was appropriate - eg. [36], which I'm shocked TCN7JM would have the audacity to present as evidence against another person. TCN7JM's statement there, which HEB was responding to, was You know this, otherwise there'd be no reason your side has been so heavily pushing for it. C'mon buddy, you're smarter than this; and HEB's response to that blatant provocation was a fairly andodyne request that TCN7JM provide something to back their sweeping assertions up. TCN7JM made sweeping WP:ASPERSIONs against an entire group of editors with no evidence, phrased in an obviously WP:BATTLEGROUND manner, then had the audacity to call for sanctions against someone simply for asking them for evidence? That is the sort of thing that, to me, would suggest a WP:BOOMERANG. --Aquillion (talk) 07:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Just as an aside, reading the above, has some agreement been made among the parties that this question must be taken to WP:COIN once this discussion is concluded? It seems pretty evident it should, given it is largely disagreement on this policy which has created this situation. --Boynamedsue (talk) 08:40, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support a formal admonishment. (Didn't receive the ping.) The editor frequently personalises disputes and engages in behaviour that reads to me as bullying, yet seems incapable of understanding that this is wrong. Espresso Addict (talk) 10:51, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose When looking at the diffs in context I'm not seeing it and agree with the comments of Levivich and Black Kite. TarnishedPath^talk 10:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per Ed, but I for one think it should be more than that. JM (talk) 23:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support a formal admonishment. Per Espresso Addict, who puts it well. This is nothing to do with roads or LDS, neither of which I was previously aware of, but seeing him around elsewhere. Johnbod (talk) 02:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support, without prejudice to a further discussion about more serious sanctions. HEB serially tags pages for notability without any attempt at article improvement. Given the rapidity of these tagging runs it is clear they conduct no WP:BEFORE checks to confirm if the article is notable. Examples:

1. January 4, 2024 tagged 12 articles in 14 minutes with 10 further edits in between.
2. June 24, 2023 tagged 28 articles in several rapid bursts.
3. June 14, 2023 tagged 15 articles in 26 minutes.
4. June 3, 2023 tagged 21 articles in 26 minutes.
5. June 2, 2023 tagged 16 articles in 12 minutes.
6. April 28, 2023 tagged 9 articles in 19 minutes.
7. April 27, 2023 tagged 11 articles in 13 minutes.

Their MO seems to be tag the article then demand anyone challenging their tags prove themselves, as shown above often aggressively. Yet they have only ever nominated 5 articles for deletion [37] with a 0.00% success rate. A further question should be, should HEB be topic banned from article tagging? 1.145.151.182 (talk) 03:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

"Given the rapidity of these tagging runs it is clear they conduct no WP:BEFORE checks to confirm if the article is notable". No that's not clear. That's a ridiculous statement. If you're going to cast WP:ASPERSIONS, you need to provide incontrovertible evidence. TarnishedPath^talk 03:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Tagging an article for notability does not require a BEFORE check. JoelleJay (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

and I hardly think being unsuccessful on a total of 5 RfCs that they've nominated in a bit over 3 years is noteworthy. TarnishedPath^talk 03:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I only nominated those pages when asked to by others, generally I think that the appropriate time between tagging for notability and nominating for deletion is measured in years. Note that my approach is the opposite of aggressive... You're seriously criticizing me for not just sending them straight to AfD en-mass? Also note that the close edit times are based on lining multiple articles up in tabs because thats often the most efficient way to research related topics (one source might be applicable to multiple pages). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I am criticizing you for what appears to be a lack of diligence. While WP:BEFORE is not mandatory before tagging an article for notability, conducting a basic search for sources to confirm your suspicions is just good practice. It takes even the fastest editors much more than a minute to search Google, Google books, Google scholar, the Internet Archive etc under various search terms (and that is a basic search). This diff from above springs to mind if you claim you do this for the thousands of articles you tag in exceptionally short timeframes. And reviewing your AFD noms, personalized WP:BLUDGEONing those who oppose your noms seems to be the common trend. I agree completely with the comment directly below, you take an uncompromising approach in relentlessly enforcing unconventional interpretations of WP policies and guidelines. And you from what you have written here, you seem to be steadfast in the face of all criticizm. 1.145.151.182 (talk) 07:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC).

Good practice according to who? Which policy are you relying on in your sweeping generalisation when you attack HEB's character? You've not providing anything substantive here which backs up any of the tenuous assertions you've made. TarnishedPath^talk 08:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not unique in holding these views: WP:DRIVEBY / WP:CLEANUPTAG / WP:RESPTAG. 1.145.151.182 (talk) 09:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC).

I'm sorry but you don't have me at all. You were accusing an editor of not following some policy you made up prior to placing notability tags and then when challenged you refer to a help article, a information article and a essay which don't pertain to your assertion that they ought to have been doing a full AfD-before every time they place a notability tag. This is weak sauce. TarnishedPath^talk 11:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I think you overestimate my productivity by an order of magnitude, we simply aren't talking about thousands and thousands of articles (I only have 60k edits total or something like that). Also note that the diff you provided is not from a page I tagged for notability, its a page I tagged for verification (I have no doubt that the topic is notable). If you think that my notability tagging is bad perhaps you would like to provide substantive examples of pages I tagged for notability where reliable sources could easily be found (aka where it doesn't seem like I looked for sources)? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure: [38][39][40]. All of your AFD nominations were argued on notability grounds, the fact that 100% of them have failed would suggest your understanding of notability is at odds with the community's. 1.145.151.182 (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

HEB has nominated 5 AfDs in his 3 and a bit years. Yawn. Ultra weak sauce. TarnishedPath^talk 02:21, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Two flaws in the complaints here. "tags pages for notability without any attempt at article improvement" makes no sense. WP:Notability is about the topic, not the article quality. Also wp:before is merely a recommendation for AFD and not even a recommendation for tagging for notability. North8000 (talk) 17:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. I've raised concerns about HEB on previous occasions, including the NFL discussion and the 2022 discussion about Rachel Helps. My impression of HEB is that they're a good editor who has three tendencies which when combined cause problems: (1) they hold some heterodox views on policies, (2) they're unwilling to back down on arguing in favor of those views, and (3) they cross the line into personalizing disputes. This combination is unfortunate, and if you're on the wrong side of a policy discussion the effect is aggressive and disconcerting. Skimming above, they're participating in the discussion (good) and don't agree that they need to change their approach (less good). Being "right" isn't enough in a collaborative project, and it's not all clear that their interpretation of COI policy is in line with the community's. Mackensen (talk) 03:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Mackensen: I have in fact agreed to change my approach around COI, I will be bringing issues to COIN if a brief talk page discussion proves unsatisfactory to the involved parties rather than entering into an extended talk page discussion or one spanning multiple talk pages. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 04:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back: I'm a little surprised to see that you've "agreed to change your approach" (on what I assume is the basis of this comment?) when that changed approach above doesn't agree with what you said you "could get behind" in that diff. Changing your approach is not the same thing as a voluntary editing restriction, and a brief talk page discussion is not the same thing as "in lieu of a talk page in any namespace." I'd personally want to workshop a voluntary restriction with other individuals in this discussion and ask you to formally commit to it, so I've started a new sub-section. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 05:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. The comment above about "heterodox views on policy" certainly rings true. I was astonished to lectured be HEB last year on how apparently scientific knowledge is just "opinion" and needs to be attributed on Wikipedia. They informed me[41] of my apparent misunderstanding and suggested all my work on Wikipedia (that's 60,000 edits) would need "cleanup" with their help. Fortunately in the articles I edit there is enough weight of consensus this sort of thing is just dismissed as HEB going off on one, to be ignored. A combination of extreme zeal and fundamental misunderstanding is not a good thing, and even where HEB is "right" on the merits (as they often are), it should be noted Wikipedia has been changing over the years and these days WP:BRIE. Bon courage (talk) 08:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Black Kite. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 10:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support. The potential conflict of interest is not the point here. There are ways to address conflicts of interest on Wikipedia without bullying, harassing, intimidating, and personally insulting editors. HEBs behavior is simply unacceptable in a community that values open discourse and communication. It discourages potential editors from participating in the process and has a chilling effect on newer and less experienced editors. HEB has consistently violated the basic rules of civility and respect that the Wikipedia community relies on. There have to be consequences for this kind of behavior. BoyNamedTzu (talk) 17:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@BoyNamedTzu: is this noticeboard discussion being talked about off-wiki in LDS forums? You haven't edited since November and have never before commented on a noticeboard before so this is a bit puzzling. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

HEB raises a valid point here. @BoyNamedTzu, given your contribution history, what exactly is your knowledge of this? TarnishedPath^talk 23:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - This proposal could be better handled with a WP:TROUTing of HEB for being too personal / biting with some of their comments. Nothing else formal needs to happen here. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Everything - I will keep this brief for fear of a swift indeffing, but suboptimal behavior is not malum in se. If we go about judging everyone on their bad interactions on bad days, there will be no one left to obsess over the minutiae we all crave. Perhaps others have different experiences, but in my life, I have known collegial people to disagree, to verbally spar, and even sometimes to end up using intemperate words. Should HEB do better? Absolutely. So should we all. Dumuzid (talk) 18:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Further comment. I already said above that I support the proposal, and further up above I showed diffs of the gravedancing edits, but I just remembered something that really needs to be pointed out here. Just after the gravedancing incident that I detailed above, HEB followed me to an essay that I had written, and made disruptive and WP:POINTy joke edits there: [42], [43], [44], [45], [46]. He also made constructive edits in the course of doing that, and of course there's nothing wrong with trying to improve an essay that someone else had started. But the edits I highlight here range from not particularly constructive to plainly vexatious. Coming as it did, immediately after the gravedancing incident, it seems to me to be a mean-spirited settling of the score. And that fits very much into the pattern of conduct described by so many other editors here. It seems to me that an admonishment here is pretty lenient. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  This definitely fits the pattern of behavior: after not immediately getting their way with a user on one page, HEB's subsequent edits end up including confrontational attention on other pages that user is involved in. It was the same way Simon Harley: HEB started cutting citations to the Dreadnaught Project after seeing Simon Harley's blog post. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 15:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's annoying that the allegation of canvassing / alleged canvassing is distracting from the actual pattern of behaviour here, which is problematic. JM (talk) 17:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Just don't see enough evidence here for this action to be needed at this time. Let'srun (talk) 23:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, nothing here rises to the level of sanctions or even a need for a slap-on-the-wrist formal criticism. The worst offense seems to be the way-too-quick-tagging behaviour, which could draw a few trouts if not done very carefully and correctly. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• I dont particularly like HEB and have generally found it to not exactly be a joy to participate in the same discussions with them, but I dont see it here, so oppose. nableezy - 17:48, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Lightburst (talk) 15:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Voluntary editing restriction workshopping

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

HEB has indicated that they would be open to a voluntary editing restriction when it comes to confronting editors they believe have a conflict of interest. That seems to be at the root of many, albeit not all, of the concerns expressed by many above.

My specific proposal would be: When HEB becomes concerned that a contributor is editing with a conflict of interest, they will bring their concerns to WP:COIN in lieu of a talk page in any namespace. This would help avoid the concerns with HEB's style of discussion as editors with more experience in dealing with COI can quickly course-correct as needed. I've no idea if this idea is good or could be improved on; perhaps HEB should be punting all their concerns to COIN and not engaging further, or perhaps there's a way to allow HEB limited engagement on user talk pages (their preference). So, please chime in below.

The admonishment proposal should continue above, as I imagine it and a voluntary restriction would work hand in hand (assuming the admonishment passes). Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 05:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Twice when I've tired of arguing with HEB over what constitutes COI editing for my team, I asked him to take me to COIN, in part to see if his accusations were serious, and also to force the issue (to see if there was consensus about his complaints). When he declined, I assumed that he was not as sure of his accusations against me as he seemed. This also made me feel like he was trying to intimidate me out of editing rather than follow policy. I would rather HEB lodge a complaint against me on COIN than repeatedly make the same arguments about my editing on my talk pages and the talk pages of various pages I edit. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  One of the issues here is that this has been brought up at COIN before, including by me. What happened there is other WiR objected to the idea that a WiR needed to disclose on an article talk, as that might endanger the program. Valereee (talk) 17:58, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Right now we are discussing HEB's behavior. If you would like to discuss mine, let's move to my talk page or COIN. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Rachel, you brought up taking this to COIN. And it's been brought up on your user before, and you rejected the idea of disclosing at article talk. Which I don't really understand. Why not simply voluntarily disclose? Valereee (talk) 20:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I've opened a related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest#COI Article Talk disclosure. BilledMammal (talk) 03:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, same reasons as above. Levivich (talk) 16:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Because this is a proposed voluntary restriction, and HEB has already agreed to some kind of that, this isn't really a support/oppose situation Rachel Helps (BYU) and Levivich. :-) The idea is to improve the proposal so it's effective in curbing HEB's worst impulses without losing their productivity, then ask HEB to sign onto it. Do you have any thoughts about how it could be improved? Or to Rachel in particular, are you saying that you like the proposal as written? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think this would be improved if you dropped the stick and stopped pushing for restrictions. If an editor wants to undertake a voluntary restriction, then let it be voluntary. If an editor wants your help with a voluntary restriction, they'll ask. Proposing a "voluntary restriction" is not fooling anybody. Levivich (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich: I'm sorry, can you show were I have been pushing for editing restrictions elsewhere? I believe the closest I've come to that is at 07:55, 6 January 2024, to which HEB replied that they would be open to a voluntary restriction along the lines I proposed. (Note that an admonishment is not a restriction.) While HEB has the ability to do whatever they'd like, I personally think it would have more helpful to them and everyone else if it's collaboratively built. That is the ethos of Wikipedia, after all, plus a voluntary restriction that doesn't impact the concerns raised by many people above is pretty useless. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 18:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I like how you added "elsewhere" to your question, as if I said "elsewhere." I didn't. You've pushed in this thread here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. Levivich (talk) 21:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich: By "elsewhere", I meant "outside this sub-section". I apologize for the ambiguity and ask for your good faith. I started the larger thread with a call for an admonishment, which is explicitly not a restriction despite you including that in your diff bombing. And rather than advocating for restrictions, I explicitly said that I didn't think there would be support for enforced editing restrictions, which you would have seen while compiling those diffs. So again, I'd politely push back on your assertion that I need to drop a stick, as I was never holding one. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 23:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry for misunderstanding. I like the proposed idea for COI discussions with HEB. I do not think it will resolve the several discussions about "independent" sources that HEB has been involved in. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment for the time being while I think about this. While COI plays a prominent role in HEB's behavior toward Simon Harley and Rachel Helps (BYU), I'm not sure I would say COI is at the root of many, albeit not all, of the concerns; COI seems to be at the root of a few of the situations. Many other diffs shared both in the OP and throughout the comments on this thread are about battlegrounding, sealioning, incivility, etc. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 17:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose both because this doesn't actually address the issue that many people seem to have with my edits and also because once again its a privilege not a restriction (every other editor would have to open a talk page discussion *first* whereas I would have the unique privilege of being able to go to COIN first). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Horse Eye's Back: Would you be open to proposing edits that would improve on the proposal? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Without tongue in cheek, this is putting the cart before the horse. A voluntary restriction does not need "workshopped" by the community as if it were some enforceable sanction. And as HEB points out, this could be seen as bypassing the "discuss the issue with the editor first" culture we've developed on Wikipedia. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Moot because HEB says just above that he opposes it, and anything "voluntary" simply won't work on that basis. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Tryptofish: I proposed this so people could edit and improve it, not support/oppose, but I guess that ship has sailed. I did intentionally start it from a proposal that HEB said they "could get behind". HEB is free to propose improvements. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. At this point, it looks like the admonishment proposal is more likely to be productive. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose because I simply don't believe it will make a difference. I think a formal repromand is appropriate (as voted above), but I don't believe HEB will keep to a voluntary restriction created through collaboration in this forum thus I don't think it's worth the time and energy. Let's see how HEB responds to appropriate criticism in this discussion. Outside of the concerns listed in this discussion, HEB has demonstrated themself to be a reasonable and constructive participant in Wikipedia and as such I think they should be able to self correct - in effect leaving HEB to decide what sort of voluntary changes they should make. If, after a formal repromand, HEB continues to be disruptive in COI, notability, deletion, and other discussions I think it would be appropriate to issue formal non-voluntary restrictions. DJ Cane (talk) 03:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Canvassing here?

For the record, this has nothing to do with the LDS Church-side of this dispute. I have no awareness of anything going on with that part of Wikipedia. This has not come up yet. Has no one noticed that:

• MatthewAnderson707, who hasn't been active in months, somehow found this thread just to comment in opposition to HEB.
• 1.145.151.182, who has never edited before on that specific IP, makes their first edit just to criticize HEB. I'm aware that IPs can change, but nothing in this range suggests they would have any interest in HEB before this point.

Those are just the most blatant examples. Two is coincidence I don't accept.

I'd also like to bring people's attention to this comment:

I have been personally warned by more than one user from interacting with HEB due to what they characterized as trollish behavior. I don't think any of them have commented here yet. My experience with HEB does not deviate far from their descriptions. Qiushufang (talk) 07:16, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Qiushufang explicitly stated they were personally approached by persons whose only intention was to malign HEB privately. I am glad Qiushufang admitted this publicly because I have been aware of this behavoir for quite some time but could not inform Horse Eye's Back about it since it occurred offwiki. From my perspective, it would seem that there is an semi-organized campaign that has existed (either presently or in the past) against HEB. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging Qiushufang and MatthewAnderson707, as you've named them.

As the OP, I'm compelled to say that I have never canvassed/been canvassed to take an action related to HEB. That includes this discussion/proposal, which was collated and written without input from anyone else.

My read of Qiushufang's comment was a bit gentler—that they were told something like 'I'm sorry for your experience, we've tried but failed to deal with them, and you might find that it's easiest to avoid them'. They may be able to say more, should they choose. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 21:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much. I was contacted by individuals describing HEB's behavior as either unfortunate or trollish after a brief but negative interaction I had with HEB. I don't disagree with them and I assume they have HEB's talk and contrib pages on watch at all times because I had no prior interactions with these people. I did not contact anybody despite HEB saying it was OK to do so. Qiushufang (talk) 21:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm glad you said something because I thought it was just me. It seems wildly obvious that "something is afoot," and I don't think it's limited to this thread: the number of new/inexperienced editors calling for sanctions on this page right now is beyond what AGF can handle. And that's coming from me, the undisputed world champion of new editors posting too much at ANI. Levivich (talk) 21:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

No one sent me a link to this or told me to post here, if that's what you're saying. This was done entirely by my own actions. There was no posting because for the most part, I'm done posting on Wikipedia. Just because I don't post doesn't mean I don't still keep up from time to time through observation. I got involved because this is an issue I personally feel strongly about and felt like it warranted a post. Unless you have proof that anyone canvassed, bringing me here, don't make baseless assumptions or accusations. I do not appreciate that. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 22:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You left when roads split and have now come back to comment in an ANI thread with the person you had argued with at Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-09-16/News and notes (which, I now realize, involved many of the editors in this discussion, including me). It's pretty obvious why you're here, and also obvious that you haven't just been reading ANI for three months... somebody posted something somewhere (probably AARoads) that alerted you to this. Levivich (talk) 22:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

There was a link on HEB's talk page which I do observe from time to time. Again, do you have any proof? — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 22:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

OK it would have been better if you said you watch ANI from time to time, because nobody is going to believe you've watched an editor's talk page for three months after leaving the project. The evidence is your contribs and presence here. Levivich (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I do observe his talk page from time to time. Not every day for three months, bit every couple of weeks. It's an obsessive habit caused by baseless paranoia that I admit needs to be broken. Whether anyone believes it or not, that's what happened. You're welcome to go right ahead and look around yourself on AARoads or anywhere else for that matter. You won't find any evidence of canvassing because that isn't what happened. Happy hunting. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 22:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

What you're admitting to is worse than what you're being accused of. Levivich (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. TarnishedPath^talk 23:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Believe what you will, but I've said my piece. If you want to dispute whether it was against the rules or "worse than what I'm being accused of" over personal bias against anyone who takes issue with HEB, then be my guest. I refuse to give in to your scare tactics or this kangaroo court of an argument, with the mentality that anything I say can and will be used against me. Good day. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 00:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Definitely not a kangaroo court. You admitted to basically only visiting Wikipedia to keep an eye on a user who you previously had a dispute with, then coming here to comment the moment you saw an opportunity to get them sanctioned. Frankly, if you don't just plain step away from Wikipedia, this admission alone would qualify for a one-way interaction ban to keep you away from HEB. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

"I wasn't canvassed, I was stalking" is certainly a novel defense. Levivich (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich: Hypothetically, he wouldn't be the only one guilty of that. Remember, Qiushufang described multiple people messaging them after posting to HEB's talk page.

I don't believe MatthewAnderson was one of them. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm confused here. I have a few users' pages watched as well for prior negative interactions with them as well as multiple warnings by several users that indicate they are a problem for the wider Wikipedia userbase. Some of them are banned now with confirmed sockpuppets. I would not have been alerted to their behavior if they weren't on my radar beforehand due to their behavior. IDK if this is something against Wiki policy or else why would you be able to watch other users' talk pages? It only seems natural that you would want to know about happenings concerning them, and someone like HEB who's had altercations across various non-related communities would have more than qualified for observation. Is the problem here that the user no longer uses Wikipedia, that they are being accused of canvasing, or the fact that they are monitoring HEB because I do that with a few users as well? Qiushufang (talk) 22:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

At issue is that this user admitted to walking away from Wikipedia except for an obsessive habit of coming back to check specifically on HEB's talk page. Then they ran straight here to chime in while sanctions were being discussed. That carries an air of grievance above and beyond just having someone on your radar while actively participating in the community & editing articles. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

One thing I did not mention aside from having no relation to these editors who sent me warnings about HEB is that they have no shared topics of interest either. Unless they are using socks, their areas of interest on Wikipedia are completely different and non-overlapping whatsoever, which makes canvassing together somewhat less likely. Qiushufang (talk) 22:51, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@MatthewAnderson707: What is the dispute you had with HEB in the first place? Have you, like Qiushufang, ever received a warning message about Horse Eye's Back? Have you ever participated in offwiki discussions about HEB?

I encourage you to be honest in your responses. It wouldn't be right for you to be sanctioned for what other people did. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 18:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I had been wondering much the same thing myself; whether it had been posted on some private Roads forum - which we do know to exist based on interactions with Roads members in the past. BilledMammal (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

What is Roads? JM (talk) 23:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• In no way do I mean to downplay the seriousness of the issue here, but in no way does it mitigate the issues with HEB. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Tryptofish: I would agree (especially in regards to the LDS Church aspect of this). However, this needed to be said either way. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 23:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, we agree. But these should be understood as two separate issues. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, I think that if canvassing has occurred here, it would go a long way to explain the bafflement many of us feel about how the difs above could be interpreted as serious breaches of policies.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:06, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Boynamedsue 100%. TarnishedPath^talk 08:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• There also seems to be some possible evidence of LDS canvassing further up the page, in the post made by my near namesake. There may of course be an innocent explanation for a user who has not made an edit since November, and who has made a total of 198 edits suddenly finding their way to ANI for the first time. It would be nice to hear it.--Boynamedsue (talk) 17:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Looking at BoyNamedTzu's edit log, it seems like BoyNamedTzu has been reading and editing pages with Mormon studies topics, including Mormon literature, which is where some of HEB's behavior took place. Maybe BoyNamedTzu noticed what was going on in pages adjacent to their activity and found their way to ANI for the first time the way I did: concluding that HEB's behavior had become an urgent matter, I came to the ANI board and was going to make a post here for the first time when I noticed there was already a thread about HEB. Rather than make a new thread, I commented on this thread. No canvassing was involved. It seems plausible to me that it could have been similar for BoyNamedTzu. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 17:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to ask you to make a very conscious effort to use the right spellings here, and correct the above post, given there are two users with very similar names and we risk descending into farce.Boynamedsue (talk) 17:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for catching that typo. I've corrected it. Guess we're all enjoying Johnny Cash. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@P-Makoto:That seems a remarkable coincidence. Maybe HEB is related to that fella in Montana who keeps getting struck by lightning? Boynamedsue (talk) 17:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I guess I find it less remarkable than you do. BoyNameTzu's most recent activity in November is drafting an article about Sam, a figure from the Book of Mormon, and HEB has been active in talk pages about Book of Mormon content that BoyNamedTzu could have been looking at to get an impression of what pages covering similar topics look like; then BoyNamedTzu was inactive through December, possibly related to being busy during the holidays; now that the holidays are over, he is on Wikipedia again.

I'm not sure of the relevance of guessing who might be related to HEB. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 17:48, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think any canvassing has occurred on the LDS-church side of this dispute, and I would not feel comfortable speculating as much. From what I can tell there are genuine concerns related to HEB's conduct regarding Mormonism, and nothing I have said should be used to take away from that fact. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 17:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no definite evidence of off-wiki organising, so yes, as things go we are still in AGF territory.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by NoonIcarus

• NoonIcarus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Lima Consensus (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Guayana Esequiba (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Talk:Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute#Requested move 4 December 2023
• Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2023 December (review of the above)

The user @NoonIcarus continues to be involved in move wars (1, 2). Also he continues to drive-by tag for NPOV disputes claiming that "... the article relies heavily on papers that reflect mostly the authors point of view, instead of a mainstream one." (1, 2) In both, when offered to add the sources of information he considers missing he declined.

He was notified that the simple opinion that an article is not neutral because it does not include enough mainstream references (who dets that?, see WP:Verifiability, not truth) is not enough to justify adding tags recklessly.

Even though he has been warned multiple times and finding that their problems continue, his purpose is not to build an encyclopedia. Ultranuevo (talk) 04:05, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

On a review of the above and recent contributions, this does not appear to me to meet the level of needing admin intervention. Stifle (talk) 09:49, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I totally disagree, I may not have long-standing problems with NoonIcarus, but they do swith other Wikipedians. Ultranuevo (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Ultranuevo's main point of contention is the following: I recently added the {{Disputed}} tags at the Lima Consensus (economy) and Plan Verde articles.

In the case of the former, editors had already expressed issues and the article is currently subject to an AfD, and I have already given reasons for the tags in both talk pages. Ultranuevo has repeatedly removed the cleanup tag ([47][48][49]), and I have warned them about edit warring:[50] --NoonIcarus (talk) 15:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I highly recommend you to read WP:NPOV dispute. Ultranuevo (talk) 04:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Unfamiliar with the above issues, but following the recent closure of an RM NoonIcarus vigorously (around 19 comments) opposed as consensus to move, NoonIcarus is now edit warring in a recreation of parts of that article at the previous title they preferred. CMD (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Could NoonIcarus explain why yesterday (6 jan) they reverted a dozens edits that updated links to 'Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute' because of a RM this is seems like wp:pointy behaviour—blindlynx 18:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I corrected the spelling of NoonIcarus in the header of this report and added some links. (Note the capitalized letter 'I' in the middle of the user's name). NoonIcarus has made a large number of reverts on a variety of articles during January 6. Evidently not everyone agrees with him that Guayana Esequiba (which was turned into a redirect by the outcome of the move discussion) deserves to be recreated as a separate article. It would be better for NoonIcarus to undo these changes until such time as agreement has been reached on a split. EdJohnston (talk) 19:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@EdJohnston: Many thanks. There's an ongoing discussion at Talk:Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute#Moving forward, although since the closer has commented that the closing statement did not necessarily endorse a split, I could start one formally to clarify the community's position on this. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Blindlynx: Hi, kind regards. That is simply because the dispute is not the same as the region, and the edits massively removed any mention of the term. The main link has remained in several articles when aprropriate, such as South American territorial disputes and List of territorial disputes. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The reverts you made don't support this, a good number of them are about the dispute and not the region for example [51], [52], [53]. Further it doesn't seems that 'Guayana Esequiba' is an neutral term for a region in others ([54]]). I agree that 'Guayana Esequiba' is appropriate in some cases such as [55] but there don't seem to be to many of these cases, but without a separate article it's largely an academic point—blindlynx 20:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Another example is this revert by NoonIcarus. It is not justifiable as the sentence is referring more to the border dispute, not the proposed state of Guayana Esequiba. It is unfair to the other editor. SOUTHCOM (talk) 05:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

Starting off, I'm going to be completely transparent here and note that NoonIcarus and I have had our differences; they have reported me here three times before on WP:ANI, with the first incident being completely understandable (my behavior was inappropriate) and I have done my best to be accountable and improve my conduct. Also for transparency sake, I advised @Ultranuevo: to make their own determination of NoonIcarus' behavior in this edit as I have been avoiding escalation with this user for months.

NoonIcarus is very skilled at gaming the system with civil point of view pushing, often stonewalling, bad faith negotiating and participating in other disruptive behavior. Instead of attempting to achieve consensus and engaging in healthy discussions, they treat the project as a high school debate forum, bogging down almost every discussion with bludgeoning and battleground behavior, proving that NoonIcarus is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia as they have a "[g]eneral pattern of disruptive behavior", have been "[t]reating editing as a battleground", have engaged in "[d]ishonest and gaming behaviors", have "[l]ittle or no interest in working collaboratively" and have held a "[l]ong-term agenda inconsistent with building an encyclopedia". I will outline each of these behaviors in sections below.

Background: Interactions with NoonIcarus began in the move discussion on 2022 Peruvian self-coup attempt, my first large heated discussion on the project. The user commented in the move discussion about a previous move discussion on Operation Gideon (2020). In this discussion, I questioned why NoonIcarus made the comparison and began to review Operation Gideon (2020) and other Venezuelan articles. NoonIcarus then began to accuse me of attempting to make a point when I proposed move requests for 2019 Venezuelan uprising attempt and Operation Gideon (2020) in good faith. From there, edit conflicts have only escalated with the user.

Activism/Advocacy: While this description may be controversial given the topic of NoonIcarus' first ANI report on me, I will stand by this assessment. They began editing on English Wikipedia by expanding the Protests against Nicolás Maduro article. This strong POV of NoonIcarus is raised by multiple users in a previous WP:ANI report, "Jamez42's repeated block deletions", noting that Jamez42 was NoonIcarus' previous username. As I began to interact more with NoonIcarus over the past few months, I noticed their personal participation in the protests against the Maduro government. So, noticing their editing and history on the project, I asked the user about this; they were present at many Venezuelan opposition protests taking hundreds of photos within their first month on Wikipedia and were personally beside prominent opposition figures during future protests, including Miguel Pizarro[56] and Juan Requesens[57] . This activist approach appears to motivate NoonIcarus' edits on the project, which is completely inappropriate as it leads to disruptive disputes with other editors, evidenced by the multiple raised concerns from users that have now spanned for over four years without improved behavior.

Bad POV: One of the first issues I noticed with NoonIcarus' edits was their inappropriate or questionable removal of information from the project. This seems to align with the "Bad POV" behavior of activist users who participate in "[r]emoval of information contrary to what the activists know is 'right,'" which perfectly describes NoonIcarus' behavior in multiple edits.

In the collapsible boxes below, we can review how NoonIcarus' edits are consistent with conduct performed by advocacy and Bad POV users.

Ownership

During our discussion on Operation Gideon (2020), NoonIcarus directed me to WP:VENRS while attempting to support the use of sources. Upon recognizing that the sources they provided were opposed to the Maduro government, a position aligned with NoonIcarus' editing behavior, I raised concerns. At the time of being directed to WP:VENRS, NoonIcarus had provided the majority of the essay's content. Using this edit, NoonIcarus did not only use it to justify the ownership of information on a single article, they used it in ownership of nearly all Venezuelan topics. NoonIcarus not only did this with WP:VENRS, they did this with WP:RSP as well; this was apparently mentioned in a deprecated source's article itself (which was appropriately deprecated), though I will not mention this due to its doxxing concerns. So this activist behavior was not only noticed by users, but outside of the project as well, showing the gravity of NoonIcarus' edits. With this ownership behavior after becoming an apparent arbiter on Venezuelan sources, NoonIcarus, according to WP:ADVICEPAGE, "wrongly used [VENRS] as a means of asserting ownership over articles within their scope", beginning to delete content that did not align with their point of view through literally hundreds of edits.([58][59][60][61][62][63][64][65][66][67][68][69][70][71][72][73][74]) Recognizing that NoonIcarus' behavior was inappropriate, I opened a request for comment to discuss the WP:VENRS essay's use (Important note: One will notice throughout this proposal that I have attempted to promote inclusion of other users through negotiation processes multiple times due to NoonIcarus' stonewalling, including with RfCs, third opinions and the more recent dispute resolution noticeboard request). As I have mentioned elsewhere, it is unknown how much or what particular information was removed in the hundreds of inappropriate WP:VENRS edits NoonIcarus made.

Inaccurate undue/synthesis claims

While NoonIcarus would target sources supposedly supportive of the Maduro government, they would vehemently oppose any sources they used being identified as aligning with the Venezuelan opposition. This occurred on the "Political stance sections" in the VENRS discussion page, which has been stonewalled since August 2023. On Efecto Cocuyo[75], Runrunes[76], El Nacional (Venezuela)[77] and El Pitazo[78], NoonIcarus removed information about such sources being described as "opposition" and instead promoted that they were "independent". It was explained multiple times that sources can be both "opposition" and "independent", though this was ignored. (WP:BADPOV)

Disruptive editing

After reviewing NoonIcarus' apparent activist editing behavior, it is clear that they are disruptive to the Wikipedia Project regarding political topics. Reviewing signs of disruptive editing, we can see that they have engaged in... Tendentious editing: NoonIcarus clearly has "a pattern of editing that is partisan." As mentioned by UltraNuevo, NoonIcarus has engaged in "an effort to discredit the validity of what most other contributors consider to be reliable sources" when it does not align with their point of view. Their ownership of Venezuelan articles and their related sources, as noted above, shows that NoonIcarus is attempting to right great wrongs through their apparent activism. Repeating penalized edits: As we can see from the 2020 report, "Jamez42's repeated block deletions", NoonIcarus has continued the same behavior that they were previously blocked for. Deleting the pertinent cited additions of others: As noted above regarding sources described as being "opposition sources", where NoonIcarus removed cited additions on multiple occasions, alongside UltraNuevo's concerns about removing academic sources. Assigning undue importance to a single aspect of a subject: This was actually discussed in another ANI report on NoonIcarus from 2018 titled "Political advocacy by Jamez42 / Susmuffin", where NoonIcarus provided undue importance of the history of tear gas usage by Venezuelan authorities in the El Paraíso stampede; this material is still included in the article at the moment. While this was reported by an IP user and paid advocacy is not confirmed, it is confirmed that NoonIcarus has been described as an advocacy user for years now. Not accepting independent input and refusal to "get the point": It is apparent that NoonIcarus disputes independent input; we can note that "no matter how many times a neutral third party intervenes, you never seem to get your way, that suggests that your goals may be at odds with Wikipedia's policies, guidelines, community and purpose." This has occurred on multiple occasions with NoonIcarus. Regarding La Patilla, a Venezuelan opposition source that aligns with NoonIcarus' apparent point of view, they quickly disputed its designation as being an unreliable source. This also occurred following the supported move of Guyana–Venezuela territorial dispute, a topic they are still included in edit warring. Engages in "disruptive cite-tagging", drive-by tagging and over tagging: NoonIcarus has surgically used tags to civilly promote their point of view. I have discussed this before where I outlined how: "[In] this edit here where attribution is crystal clear (despite MOS:CLAIM wording), ... the Venezuelanalysis source and information was removed anyway [by NoonIcarus]. Even more egregious are these edits; the user removes the Venezuelanalysis source for an attributed statement and then in a subsequent edit, the user removes the attributed statement from the article entirely, saying it was "unsourced" (even though they removed the source)." @Burrobert: and I have raised this concern before; on Operation Gideon (2020) (see here), ZunZuneo (see here) while it occurred again recently on Plan Verde (see here). NoonIcarus also overtagged both Venezuelan opposition[79] and the Guarimba[80][81] articles (WP:BADPOV), including others. NoonIcarus will see information that does not agree with their point of view (BADPOV), tag it without discussion and then removes the information they don't agree with (usually after no user notices or discusses the tag). Drive away productive contributors: As mentioned above, NoonIcarus has engaged in ownership behavior regarding Venezuelan articles. This has likely prevented new users from participating in Venezuelan topics, which can arguably be recognized as a contentious topic and has limited participation. Since this behavior has occurred for years, the number of users repelled and subsequently the damage to neutrality regarding Venezuelan topics may be high. Inappropriate usage of "Stable version": It is noted that "It is important to note that outside of the limited administrative context, a "stable version" is an informal concept that carries no weight whatsoever, and it should never be invoked as an argument in a content dispute. ... Editors who attempt to enforce a stable version may be blocked from editing without warning." NoonIcarus has done this on multiple occasions to maintain their preferred version of an article.[82][83][84][85][86][87] Point illustrating: This has been more apparent recently and is why this report exists; the Lima Consensus (economy) article. One instance of point illustrating is when "someone nominates one of your favorite articles for deletion". Prior to this, NoonIcarus was last involved in Peru-related articles back in April 2023 when our first interactions began. Though the Lima Consensus article is not my "favorite article", it is one I created and went out of their way to delete it, apparently attempting to make things personal and upset me. They had previously proposed the deletion of one article I created only two days after it was created as well, ignoring standards of attempting to fix it first. This is simple battleground behavior, which can also be explained in the bludgeoning edits below. Bludgeoning: While this proposal itself is fairly lengthy itself (all of this did not happen overnight), NoonIcarus' bludgeoning behavior is clear through their consistent badgering. As noted in the "Deleting the pertinent cited additions of others" section, the user has made extraordinary demands regarding the inclusion of material related to sources. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the La Salida article, where NoonIcarus described the goal of the campaign using a Venezuelan opposition politician's quote without proper attribution, writing that the goal "was to 'find a peaceful, democratic and constitutional solution to the government of Nicolás Maduro'", parroting Venezuelan opposition talking points creating false neutrality by watering down the language in support of the opposition. When I read about this history of La Salida, I provided independent, reliable sources that said the objective of La Salida was plainly to "remove Maduro", according to those sources. NoonIcarus consistently removed this information (WP:BADPOV) and engaged in bad faith negotiations, badgering me for a month by first saying it was not neutral (WP:BADPOV), moving the goalposts multiple times using their stable argument, then stating that a "compromise" was to describe the goal as "civil disobedience" (this was not mentioned in any source), then demanded "mainstream sources" instead of academic sources, then dismissed the sources as unreliable due to "covering the Venezuelan opposition in a negative tone", then inaccurately said the goal was to end the Bolivarian Revolution, etc. The continuous sealioning discussions and stonewalling my edits through edit warring (yes, I acknowledge it takes to users) are clearly disruptive as they badgered with more demands. Ultimately, their ownership behavior became clear in the La Salida discussion with two ultimatums of false choices they placed upon me; NoonIcarus saying "This can be a neutral way to express the peaceful purpose of the campaign ... If this isn't a good option, the original and last stable version should be restored" and the projection-like statement of "You should be open to work with others to find solutions, but if that's not the case, no changes will come out of it." As with other bludgeoning civil POV pushing that NoonIcarus has engaged in, this example shows how the user will "hang around forever, wearing down more serious editors and become an expert in an odd kind of way on their niche POV. They outlast their competitors because they're more invested in their point of view" while they also attempt to "argue that reliable sources are biased while their own preferred sources are neutral." This discussion is currently in dispute resolution after I made a request to solve the disagreement.

Recommendation: While I have done my best to maintain good faith in NoonIcarus' behavior hoping that we could collaborate, attempting to make any edits on the project for the past eight months has been a personal hell. Looking at the previous sanctions placed against NoonIcarus, I would recommend a topic ban on political articles for one year at a minimum since they did not remedy their behavior following previous sanctions. A topic ban appears to have been supported by multiple users in the the previous discussion and a ban of equal length as their previous sanction is suitable. Personally, I am hesitant to make this recommendation since NoonIcarus forgave my inexcusable behavior in the past, though after recently discovering that this is not new behavior and has been detrimental to multiple users in the past, I am hopeful that a break will be healthy for NoonIcarus and have positive results for them and other users going forward.--WMrapids (talk) 06:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You're absolutely going to have to condense this WP:WALLOFTEXT if anyone is going to act on your recommendation. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@HandThatFeeds: Apologies for the wall of text, but much of the context was necessary especially since NoonIcarus is a skillful civil POV pusher. I’m not accustomed to providing ANI reports and as I mentioned, I was hesitant to make any recommendation at all. But this opinion changed quickly once they began personally targeting articles I created for no apparent reason and then reverting hours of edits I carefully performed regarding the Essequibo; @Blindlynx and Chipmunkdavis: note NoonIcarus' inappropriate behavior related to this above.

Overall, NoonIcarus has demonstrated time and time again that their modus operandi is death by a thousand cuts, so I felt like the thousand cuts had to be shown to those reviewing this incident for them to fully grasp what is actually going on. Sorry if this is a long response itself, but do you have a recommendation on how to condense this for readability sake? Thanks for providing an honest assessment of my recommendation. WMrapids (talk) 21:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

 Comment: I was planning to start a own thread about WMrapids' content blanking at Guayana Esequiba ([88][89]) and aspersions casting, which is a behavior that precisely has already denounced at ANI before: User:WMrapids (blanking), User:WMrapids and WP:ASPERSIONS, but here we are. Previous discussions include but are not limited to WP:VENRS#RfC: VENRS, WP:RS/N#WP:VENRS, WP:NPOV/N#Nelson Bocaranda, WP:NPOV/N#Venezuelan opposition, WP:NPOV/N#Guarimba, Talk:2002 Venezuelan coup attempt#Terrible article, Talk:La Salida#The goal was to remove Maduro, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#La Salida, and User talk:NoonIcarus#Advocacy?, among others.

As the user themselves concede, they have shifted from editing mostly about politics in Peru to Venezuela after a move discussion, doing massive and drastic changes in articles such as Operation Gideon (2020), Rupununi uprising, Venezuelan opposition and Guarimba. It's not the first time that WMrapids delves into edit history that spans years to find specific instances of wrongdoing about editors that they disagree with. A few weeks ago, in November, they left a long-winded at SandyGeorgia's talk page User talk:SandyGeorgia/arch120#Ownership edits on Venezuelan topics?, incidentally also accusing her of ownership in Venezuelan articles. Their response probably can offer good context of the situation: (#Followup: intimidation, COI, and BLP concerns). Before that, they accused new editor Elelch of being a SPA over disagreements about Peruvian topics: ANI#User:Elelch, and all of this is without mentioning the block for edit warring about Peruvian topics the Spanish Wikipedia last year. It's one thing to have editorial differences with other editors, especially in a topic so controversial like politics, and another one entirely different is having a systemic or long term abuse.

It seems that when I dispute changes it is disruptive editing and ownership, but when I discuss the edits or explain the opposition to the changes it is sealioning, stonewalling, badgering and bludgeoning (this last one is ironic due to the length of the message above, and they themselves have been warned against it in related RfCs). By this point they probably have accused me of everything in the book, even after the last time I tried extending an olive branch, which leads back to the aspersions issues I have mentioned before,

I'd be happy to answer to any related questions or concerns. There is simply too much information that is being oversimplified, but in the meantime I would highly recommend to mind a boomerang and analyze WMrapids' own behavior which, as I mentioned, is not limited to Venezuelan topics but Peruvian ones as well. --NoonIcarus (talk) 18:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The user NoonIcarus seems to have a lead editor approach and has almost been policing articles related to the Venezuelan-Guyana territorial dispute and related topics. Their contribution history shows an excessive amount of reverts against WMrapids which are hard to defend. Regarding articles related to Guyana in particular, there has been a significant amount of Venezuelan POV edits across the English and especially the Spanish Wikipedia that were overlooked by NoonIcarus but could have used his/her/their expertise. I questioned to myself why NoonIcarus did not see nor address some of the blatant vandalism and POV edits at the Spanish Wikipedia that remained there for months and even years. I'm not going to directly make claims or accusations here; I want to believe NoonIcarus has good will and look forward to working with them. We need the Venezuelan perspective and I hope NoonIcarus can be that person. We all have work to do in keeping our biases in check. WMrapids seems to be making great contributions and I think NoonIcarus should, at the very least, ease up on the policing of WMrapids' contributions. SOUTHCOM (talk) 04:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@SOUTHCOM: Can I help responding to specific cases? I can recall that not long ago I denounced an user precisely for edit warring and POV pushing in related articles (:es:3RR#Guayana Esequiba), who I see you have interacted with in the past [90] and used to place Venezuelan flags and changing the content of infoboxes of disputed cities an regions. It should be noted that this was the same reason why the es:Guayana Esequiba article in Spanish is currently fully protected.

I can also point out to my contributions to the 2023 Venezuelan referendum article, which aimed to justify the annexation of the region, both in English and in Spanish, expanding on the referendum's low turnout, the doubts about the official results and the actions taken afterwards. --NoonIcarus (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

NoonIcarus, I was going to not reply in order to avoid bludgeoning, but your misrepresentations of your actions are just too blatant for me to ignore, so I'll try to keep it to a small list.

1. Yes, I have been involved in my fair share of inappropriate interactions in the past and this was disclosed in my first statement, but I have been doing my best to improve. The same cannot be said on your part and this can be clearly demonstrated in your editing history. Controversial topics are new to me (since around the 2022 Peruvian self-coup attempt, actually), while you began your editing in a controversial topic (Protests against Nicolás Maduro), have been involved in controversial political topics for almost ten years now and you still haven't rectified your edit warring/advocacy editing since sanctions were last placed on you four years ago. You definitely should be held to a higher standard and you are not meeting it.
2. Speaking of those specific sanctions, the ANI report opened after David Tornheim wrote:

   "Jamez42 (NoonIcarus) continues to delete large blocks of well-sourced text ... from United States involvement in regime change and in Latin America to the point of being disruptive. In particular, he keeps deleting material related to the U.S. efforts to support the ouster of Nicholas Maduro by the U.S. in support of Juan Guaidó"

   This simple explanation, along with some other information, was enough for Jusdafax and Number 57 to immediately support a topic ban on you. Well, even this specific behavior never changed and you continued to edit war on the same United States involvement in regime change article [91] and United States involvement in regime change in Latin America[92][93][94], removing information that was properly sourced.
3. While recognizing this is not Spanish Wikipedia, Ultranuevo and SOUTHCOM note that you have been engaged in edit warring on that project as well. This also occurred with the Guarimba article where I attempted to work with you and even admitted my own faults in our discussion thinking we were heading in the right direction. Then you began edit warring on the Spanish Guarimba article, falsely claiming that my addition was "original research" ("Investigación original") not once, but twice, before placing similar material back supporting your preferred version. (WP:Bad POV)
4. Finally, your misrepresentations and outright falsehoods need to stop. Regarding ANI#User:Elelch, they were warned about using IP socks and socks were a big problem in Peru articles for awhile. Yes, I was blocked on Spanish Wikipedia as I was new to controversial editing, but you were blocked for an even more prolonged period of time (initially 6 months, down to 2 months) for ownership behavior. As for the "olive branch" you extended to me; you inexplicably nominated an article I created for deletion the next day, though I still replied with skeptical hope. That hope has since been lost until there has been some concrete changes on your part.

Overall, I believe that people are redeemable and am hoping that a topic ban on political articles for NoonIcarus, though significant but not permanent, will be a motivation to improve their behavior on Wikipedia. They are a knowledgeable user, but they need to use their experience in a positive manner and not for civil POV pushing. WMrapids (talk) 05:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support topic ban on political topics (1 year): As proposer. Please see initial rationale and reply.--WMrapids (talk) 05:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Paid editor with New pages patrol (NPP) rights

SailingInABathTub (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a declared paid editor active on freelancing websites such as Upwork, Freelancer.com, and PeoplePerHour; they have shared links on their separate account MisterTech (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). They also run a marketing agency named bolt-on-marketing.co.uk.

SailingInABathTub is not a prolific volunteer editor. Before December 2023, they were sparsely active; until then, their main focus was paid work. On 18 December 2023, they made this request based on an automated invitation sent by the NPP team (perhaps based on edit count and some AfD votes). Accordingly, @Callanecc: gave them NPP on a trial basis, which was fair. However, neither Callanecc nor the NPP invitation team knew that they were a paid editor and would be biased when reviewing articles. We have cases where paid editors have abused such rights, creating a large backlog again, so there is no real benefit in awarding advanced rights to paid editors, especially when SailingInABathTub has made only 3,853 edits (see this discussion), and the majority of their article creations are WP:LUGSTUBS about plants from Brazil. We have removed such rights in previous cases, see: User:Elias_Ziade and Nehme1499.

Nonetheless, there are some instances where SailingInABathTub's article creations seem odd. I found one on a quick look: the creation of a dubious notability company article without disclosing (Depher). Also, as an NPP reviewer, they have made some errors as well, such as reviewing a possibly non-notable food vendor Imoro Muniratu and nominating a major neighbourhood for deletion Kakrail. Based on that, I'd recommend the community to remove their NPP rights. Thank you. 2.50.191.75 (talk) 12:52, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for notifying me of this discussion. I have reviewed a number of number articles since being granted temporary NPP rights. Most of these pages I have tagged with improvement templates, and some with deletion notices. It is likely that not every page creator will have been happy with these decisions. I find it odd that this request has been made from an IP, and I think that it is only fair that you disclose your relationship with Wikipedia. If helpful I am happy to present my reasoning behind any of my page creations and NPP review decisions. SailingInABathTub ~~🛁~~ 13:18, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment - What is the admin action being requested? If they have been given NPP on a trial basis, then this is feedback for those running NPP, and not a matter for admins. I noticed this because this editor and I had different views on an AfD that just closed, but AfD is there precisely so that a discussion can be had, so there is no problem with a reviewer taking a case to AfD. It was clear in the AfD that the editor had read the sources and considered them carefully, so I would say they are doing the job well, and would feed that back to the NPP team. This section should be closed. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:38, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• I'll look into this, but fundamentally we need to give latitude to paid editors who follow the ToU. There are a huge number of editors who do not, and the only counter we have is paid editors who do - yet their numbers are very small. - Bilby (talk) 13:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no policy violation since paid edits are disclosed, and I think there should be no prejudice against SailingInABathTub's for requesting NPP, since it was done based on an invitation. That being said, I think some advance permissions, including NPP, should be off limits for any paid editor, and that NPP should be revoked here. MarioGom (talk) 16:51, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

To add some more color here: we repeatedly assure people contacting Wikipedia on VRT that admins and NPP are not paid, and that there is no way they can hire one for paid editing or reviews. Having editors holding NPP and doing paid editing undermines trust in the project, and is a reputation ticking bomb given the (very common) VRT scenario I'm describing. I don't think I should be replying at VRT saying "well, new page reviewers are not supposed to accept money for reviews, but technically we have new page reviewers with Upwork profiles advertising Wikipedia services". It's just wrong. Again, this is without prejudice against SailingInABathTub, which I think is acting in good faith and in a policy-compliant way in terms of PAID disclosure. MarioGom (talk) 16:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this is a problem for precisely this reason: we repeatedly assure people contacting Wikipedia on VRT that admins and NPP are not paid, and that there is no way they can hire one for paid editing or reviews. I don't think that properly disclosed paid editing conflicts with being an NPP reviewer per se, but being available for freelance editing work sure does. -- asilvering (talk) 03:17, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I should also be clear that I too state this with no prejudice towards SailingInABathTub (for or against). -- asilvering (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I am aware there's no current requirement under NPP that a new page reviewer must not be a paid editor, only that they cannot be paid to review pages. - Bilby (talk) 10:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

As I said, I do not think there is any policy violation. But NPP is a trust position, and we have judgement calls that go beyond a policy checklist. If paid editors getting NPP (or autopatrolled, for that matter) are going become a thing, I guess we have no shared understanding here, and we might need an RFC about setting this in policy. MarioGom (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• FWIW I don't think there's anything wrong with Depher - I actually thought about creating an article myself a while back after watching a BBC news report about it. As a CIC rather than a commercial enterprise it is also unlikely to be the type of company that would be linked to paid editing. Black Kite (talk) 15:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• I don't think any paid editors should have NPR. Along with autopatrolled, it's one of the most sought-after rights by bad faith paid editors because it allows them to remove their articles (or a colleague's articles) from the main point of scrutiny we have on paid-for spam or puff pieces. That's why one of the formal criteria for NPR is reviewing pages solely on a volunteer basis. I'm not saying that SailingInABathTub is a bad faith paid editor, but the risk is too great. Independently, I also already had concerns about SailingInABathTub's understanding of the deletion process based on our exchange at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faculty of Archaeology. I'm in favour of removing the right, but won't do so because of our exchange at that AfD. – Joe (talk) 09:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Cinema of Egypt copyvios

I'm not sure where to go with this and the problems seem too deep for me to do it alone, but the Cinema of Egypt article is riddled with direct copyright violations going back months. Crimsonalfred2022 has been adding material since October and much of it appears to be copyright violations based on google translations of the articles used in the reference. I removed this section and this both are word for word what google translate says in the references themselves. I don't know how far back the edits go so I don't know how to make a revdel request for them. There are probably far more instances but this is beyond me to do alone. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 22:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that Crimsonalfred2022 was previously notified about copyright policy on 30 October 2023 ([95]). (Less urgently, also notified shortly after about copying within Wikipedia, [96].) R Prazeres (talk) 22:46, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

For complex copyright problems, you can file a report at Wikipedia:Copyright problems. Use Template:Copyvio (you will need to subst:). The resulting template will include instructions for filing the report. -- Whpq (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and removed the user's additions going back to December 20, as the amount of copyvio is too massive to stand. There's also numerous potentially copyright uploads (around 90 files) added to the Commons, many of which will need to be deleted, so I've posted at their administrator noticeboard that all their uploads need to be checked too. — Diannaa (talk) 12:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Diannaa: Thank you ThaddeusSholto (talk) 17:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

More WP:BLUDGEONing by User:Redacted II and others at Talk:SpaceX Starship

There have been multiple previous RFC's on the talk page for SpaceX Starship where people continue to dispute the status of the first and second test flights (see archives 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10) and the talk page as of now. User:Redacted II in particular has been the most notorious of them, trying to propose new "classifications" for the status of the flights and whatnot even though consensus was already reached and reinforced multiple times, and I even moved the {{round in circles}} banner to the top of the page in order to try to warn people about this. I consider the situation fatally destructive as it stands now as Redacted II has been warned numerous times before, and I even reported them on the Administrators' Noticeboard before in hopes that they would actually learn, but they're still going at it. DASL51984 ^{(Speak to me!)} 04:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

DASL51984, If you think the latest section "adding mention of the various classification of IFT-1 and IFT-2" was an attempt to reclassify either flight from failure to something else, then you are very, very wrong.

The primary goal was to lend due weight to a controversy, thus improving the amount of information readers have. I even said "If it lends too much weight to Partial Failure or Success, then please let me know.".

The secondary goal was to add closure to all the debates. By giving the "Partial Failure/Success" groups a very small victory, I hoped that they would stop trying to do this.

As for restarting the IFT-2 debate, I fought against that when it happened. I did challenge the closure, but I accepted it after reading the closer's response. When other user's tried to do the same, I advised them to stop, saying "This is a dead debate at this point. I recommend moving on."

When another editor refused to accept this, I tried to get them to stop. Eventually, another editor who was trying to stop them reached out to me, and I advised them to go to either DRN or ANI, due to their previous edit history. I also recommended consulting both DASL51984 and another editor, "given that they have been involved in the new topic".

As DASL51984 has said, this isn't the first them they have tried to ban me. But they failed to mention that this attempt ended in them being banned for edit warring (48 hour block). They were also given this warning:

"This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass fellow Wikipedian(s) again, as you did at Talk:SpaceX Starship, you may be blocked from editing without further notice" Redacted II (talk) 13:52, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I have quite a few things to add here concerning you which I believe show pretty problematic behavior:

1.) You've displayed and admitted to having a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality, in this diff in particular during the last RFC on this topic you said "A major part of the IFT-1 problem, though, was my failure to accept defeat. While I wasn't alone in that, I deserve a large amount of the blame." There is no defeat or victory here; or at least there's not supposed to be. It's just part of a trend; defeat with what? You're not supposed to be fighting anybody here.

2.) You've been accused (see this diff here) in the past on RFC's on this topic of WP:BLUDGEONING, specifically with regards to RFC's and attempts to portray the launches of Starship as non-failures in some way or another. This has been going on since the first test launch around May of 2023. Your username appears over 200 times on this one revision of the talk page. That's bludgeoning in my view, and I believe you were warned against bludgeoning during the first RFC as well.

3.) On this diff here, you said this: "If you want it to not be counted as a failure, '''WAIT (at least) A FEW MONTHS.''' Maybe even a year. Right now, you have a 0% chance of getting what you want. The longer you try now, the longer it will be until it's actually possible." This is the most concerning one for me, for obvious reasons. A couple months later and this is what you APPEAR to be trying to do; to once again push through something in a different form (Failure vs non failure) into the article despite it being overwhelmingly rejected three times now. We aren't supposed to be "strategic" in our edits and "time them" so that they slip through. Chuckstablers (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I also have to add the following:

4.) It should be noted that 3.) happened shortly after the RFC (search "RFC on infobox failure" here) was closed with overwhelming consensus in favor of failure. And shortly after that, you're advising another user how to, in my view, strategically bypass consensus ("The longer you try now, the longer it will be until it's actually possible").

5.) After being accused by multiple editors of bludgeoning in the second RFC (see here and here again) you then archived (diff here) the entire closed RFC, three days after it was closed. Somebody pointed out why this was inappropriate (it's been three days) and you rearchived it again 4 days later (diff here) before it was reverted (again). I point this out because there are some hugely troubling implications given the advice you gave to the user in 3.). Chuckstablers (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Something I find incredibly hypocritical is how Redacted II told User:JudaPoor to drop the stick in that one RFC, only to resume their shenanigans shortly afterwards. DASL51984 ^{(Speak to me!)} 04:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I personally interpreted that last remark differently: I don't read it as "lie low until people have moved on and sneak the changes in," but as "wait until tempers have cooled instead of further aggravating the situation." Maybe I'm being overly-charitable, but I'm willing to extend the benefit of the doubt in this particular interpretation. – Jadebenn (talk · contribs · subpages) 08:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

"wait until tempers have cooled instead of further aggravating the situation"

That was exactly what I was aiming to say. Redacted II (talk) 12:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

1:

"Admit Defeat" was, admittedly, poor wording. After all, we are all here to improve Wikipedia. We just disagree.

2:

I won't defend my actions during the IFT-1 debate. But that was almost a year ago. For IFT-2, there was a lot of bludgeoning by several editors (especially me). I was warned on December 9th, and started working on improving.

3:

That was an appeal to JudaPoor to stop. I have no intention of trying to reclassify either IFT-1 or IFT-2. There are clarifications I want to see added (S25/B9 and S24/B7 being labeled as prototypes), and several editors have expressed openness to doing this once Starship is operational, and not in the prototype phase.

4:

A consensus can be overturned. Again, I'm not trying to do that, but letting other editors know that isn't a violation of any policies.

5:

I think I explained my reasoning for the archiving fairly well:

"The topic had already been closed, and it was made clear that a reversal of the closure wasn't going to happen. I get you point, but it's a dead topic. And a dead topic that is over 60% of the talk page is a huge obstruction."

And, upon rearchiving it, I said "If you have any objections, then please revert it." Redacted II (talk) 14:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I want to make it clear that I think you're a very valuable editor, and am opposed to any sanctions or anything like that against you. Your editing is obviously positive for Wikipedia, and Wiki Space Flight as a whole.

We might disagree sometimes, but that's going to happen and there's nothing wrong with that! I just wanted to make these points though because I was trying to make you aware of some examples of behavior/attitudes that, if toned down a bit, would help us all get along better.

Do you think we could maybe agree to drop the whole failure vs non failure thing given the consensus that's developed over these RFC's and try to tone it back on future RFC's with the volume of comments? I think that'd help everyone get along a bit better no? Chuckstablers (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

As an involved user, I think that Redacted II needs to be reminded to not revive settled debates and to let things go. I find his contributions to be extremely valuable at the SpaceX Starship article, and to block him from editing (in these areas) would be a net loss for Wikipedia. The same goes for DASL51984, however, given that he has been warned and blocked for edit warring before, I think he should use this incident as a way to reflect upon his behaviour as this ANI post is quite frivolous owing to the fact that this is a content dispute. Redacted II mentioned that I asked for guidance on whether or not to bring this to the dispute resolution noticeboard but I decided that it'd be too much hassle in the end and decided to report the issue to @0xDeadbeef who resolved the content dispute involving a recent RfC at the talk page. Ultimately, having both contributors be blocked from editing (these areas) at this point in time would be a net loss for the project unless either of them continue to create a negative environment within the spaces they edit in. However, as for other editors who have participated in what was described as bludgeoning by the OP should be firmly warned not to do this again in the future as I felt that they were less constructive in their arguments and contributions to the talk space and article compared to Redacted II. I'll also add that there was quite a lot of unconstructive sealioning at the talk page by some editors as well which I believe caused DASL51984 to file this ANI complaint.

PS: Not to be petty, but I'd like to add that I added the {{round in circles}} template before it was removed or modified. No hard feelings! Regards, Yasslaywikia (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Redacted II has been WP:BLUDGEONing on Talk:SpaceX Starship for many months now, particularly on whether these two launches were failures or not. I see this clearly in particular on Archives 6, 7, and 9, where Redacted II has over a hundred replies on each of those pages (and also some on Archive 3 where this all started). I described the situation as him being a fan of SpaceX and wanting to see it portrayed positively in this diff, and in his reply he agreed, saying I have never seen a more accurate description of any situation. I am very much a fan of SpaceX (though not Elon). I think this is pretty clear and Redacted II is having a hard time letting go and dropping the stick on these launches being considered failures in most reliable sources. Leijurv (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

A bit of a correction...

For IFT-1, I have changed my mind. I know I said as such somewhere in Archive 9, but I'm not finding it.

As for IFT-2:

When I started the "Adding mention of the various classifications of IFT-1 and IFT-2" topic, my goal was to add mention of the controversy, explain why failure is correct ruling, and help finally end this debate. This wasn't an attempt to reclassify either launch. I even wrote

"If it lends too much weight to Partial Failure or Success, then please let me know."

And for me being a fan of SpaceX:

Yes, I am a fan of SpaceX, but I am constantly trying to compensate for that bias. Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I might even overcompensate, and sometimes I fail. Redacted II (talk) 13:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't really assume good faith anymore, due to how needlessly out-of-hand this has become. Nor will I ever back down unless this comes to a permanent stop. DASL51984 ^{(Speak to me!)} 03:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I was on the opposite side of the discussion from Redacted II in the recent RfC. However, since the RfC, I have noticed some improvement in Redacted II's approach. In a December 2023 discussion with JudaPoor (which other editors are also referencing), I viewed Redacted II as attempting to calm JudaPoor by explaining that consensus can (and likely will) change with time, and importantly, Redacted II acknowledged the current consensus and asked for the arguing to stop. The recent talk page discussion, which seems to be the impetus for this ANI discussion, appeared to me as an attempt at "describing the dispute."

I do find it concerning that DASL51984 has selectively notified editors on their talk page (Leijurv, Chuckstablers, Jrcraft Yt, 0xDeadbeef, CtrlDPredator, Zae8, and myself) and made statements that they won't assume good faith and will "[not] back down unless this comes to a permanent stop." In this context, it makes the ANI discussion appear somewhat frivolous or even a battle by organizing a faction on the part of DASL51984.

Ultimately, there isn't a current issue with Redacted II (although I think they would agree there's room for improvement), and sanctions shouldn't be punitive. We should all be here to build an encyclopedia. Redraiderengineer (talk) 15:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Summarizing my thoughts here on all of this. At this point if anyone wants a response from me please at me.

1.) Redacted is a very valuable contributor and I have a lot of respect for them.

2.) The only recent contentious thing they've done is bring up the whole "failure vs non failure" thing again. That topic was closed and they haven't brought it up again.

3.) Sanctions would be wildly inappropriate given their contributions, that they are clearly here to build an encyclopedia, and that sanctions aren't to be used to punish previous 'bad' behavior. As far as I'm aware they exist as a last resort to stop somebody who keeps doing the bad behavior.

4.) My point with my two replies to Redacted was to point out that there are legitimate concerns with their behavior as recent as December (that probably contributed to this whole thing) and that I don't think DASL51984 is harassing them. Wasn't to argue for sanctions.

5.) @Redraiderengineer pointed out that it seems like editors who had disagreements with Redacted in the past were notified about this thread only. If that is the case and it wasn't just editors on the Starship page in general then I'd also like to express my concerns about it. It would encourage WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior and that's not what the goal here is.

Ultimately I think we can all learn to get along on this topic, despite our clear differences of opinion on SpaceX and Starship, if we closely follow the talk page guidelines, respect consensus and agree to not badger during RFC's. Sanctions aren't needed, and I'd like to see this closed. Chuckstablers (talk) 22:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

User previously banned for sock-puppetry is engaged in bad faith, revenge, biased opinions with unreliable sources

The User:Sira Aspera as already been banned for sock-puppetry, now he is engaging in bad faith, reverting edits from multiple users for revenge, making several edits with biased opinions with unreliable sources in the same article etc. I would like to ask the admins to pay special attention to him because he clearly wants to vandalize discreetly Fakecontinent (talk) 14:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

No, the user was simply offended because I was explained to them that his change to the "Idolatry" page required consent as it was motivated by political ideological reasons as stated on the talk page and in revenge them have canceled my contributions en masse, despite this is not the first time that his contributions have been canceled by various editors for this reason. Furthermore, them continues to accuse me of being blocked as a puppet without apparently having read the part where the error of this is admitted and I receive an apology. Furthermore, I would point out that you did not follow the procedure of notifying me on my talk page that you reported me. Sira Aspera (talk) 14:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

It's important for a new user to understand that reporting another editor on this board will also bring scrutiny on the reporter. I've sampled some of these interactions and by my reading User:Fakecontinent is engaged in putting their opinions into their edits, so most of their contributions are being reverted by multiple editors. I see nothing User:Sira Aspera has done as incorrect, merely BOLD. Fakecontinent might take reversion as a sign something they are doing is not within social norms. BusterD (talk) 14:15, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

After looking at the user's talk page, the block for sockpuppetry was rescinded as it turned out to be erroneous, based on CheckUser evidence. In other words, he's been proven innocent from that, there's no need to bring it up here. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 14:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that FakeContinent has created a sock account, TurkishTR, to continue its campaign of canceling my edits Sira Aspera (talk) 00:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

User conduct at Bangladesh genocide RfC and TBAN violation

I would like to know if the conduct of A.Musketeer and myself at Talk:Bangladesh genocide#RFC on the victims of the Bangladesh genocide is appropriate or disruptive.

1. A.Musketeer has reverted my attempt to move what I think are pretty obviously !votes from the Discussion section to the Survey section. They didn't respond when I asked why they considered them "comments, not !votes".
2. A.Musketeer has accused me of canvassing by pinging all (unblocked) editors that participated in the last RfC about this article and has placed a canvassing tag on Volunteer Marek's !vote. I think that my pings were entirely appropriate and satisfy WP:APPNOTE, which states that I'm allowed to notify [e]ditors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic. My pings were neutrally worded, I pinged all participants of the RfC (not a "selective" group), and I just placed my comment at the bottom of the RfC (is there a better location to place it?).
3. A.Musketeer has made a personal attack against me: Your desperation is becoming more and more visible, Malerisch.
4. A.Musketeer has accused me of making passive attempts to besmirch the opposing editors to be Hindu nationalists. A.Musketeer is referring to this comment and the second paragraph of my !vote, in which I quoted news articles and a scholarly journal. What is the correct way to quote these articles, if I did so inappropriately? I have not called any editor a "Hindu nationalist", and I think that I have been entirely civil towards the other editors on the talk page. On the other hand, A.Musketeer has made uncited claims that opposing their position (that Bengali Muslims were not the victims of genocide) is "genocide denial" (1, 2).

Lastly, while this is not directly related to this RfC, I believe that A.Musketeer violated their TBAN from Sheikh Hasina, broadly construed, with this edit to 2024 Bangladeshi general election (Hasina was just re-elected). Malerisch (talk) 21:25, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

FYI, TarnishedPath has removed the Discussion header to resolve the first dispute. Pinging ScottishFinnishRadish and El C about the TBAN. Malerisch (talk) 03:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Malerisch, generally a RfC closer will look at the discussion as well as !votes to gauge the strengths of arguments for and against proposals, so I don't think the placement really mattered too much. For the sake of resolving that specific dispute I decided to be bold and just make everything part of the "survey" section. I hope that is a suitable resolution. TarnishedPath^talk 03:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for stepping in—I don't have any issue with what you did. I'm aware that closers will read the whole discussion anyway, which is why I didn't force the issue. Malerisch (talk) 03:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know: A.Musketeer has been actively vandalizing contents related to the current geopolitical tensions in Bangladesh and Bangladesh Liberation War despite being not from Bangladesh (they contribute mostly in the India-related articles). A.Musketeer has been previously blocked for waging edit-wars and have been community banned from editing contents (TBAN) related to Sheikh Hasina. 45.248.151.129 (talk) 16:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC) Note: WP:SOCKSTRIKE

• To provide context on the "Hindu nationalist" labelling — User:Wiki.arfazhxss and his sockpuppets, who have the same position in this dispute as Malerisch, have been continuously attacking the opposing editors, (in this case User:Nomian and myself), to be Hindu nationalist/Hindutva/Hindu far-right for pointing out the Bengali Hindus as the target in the genocide. There have been some off-wiki coordination as well to extend the attack. [97]. Malerisch then further provoked the sentiments by quoting certain contents on India's Hindu nationalist politics in the discussion, unrelated to the article, and associating my position with them. He used the same tactic in the RfC by quoting one of those articles and mentioning me and my position in the dispute.
• On Canvassing: Instead of notifying the editors on their user talk pages, Malerisch placed the comment below that of Lionel Messi Lover who supports Malerisch's position in the RfC and was describing the mention of Bengali Hindus as "misinformation" and "misrepresentation". Unsurprisingly, this resulted in a !vote by Volunteer Marek like this one.
• I'm not sure how merely talking about a desperation is a personal attack when the user is literally going after every editor who is !voting for the opposite position, even trying to manipulate others to change into their preferred !vote.
• My comment on genocide denial is misquoted here. I was referring to the general denial of the fact that "Bengali Hindus were targeted in the genocide" without referring to any editor. I had already quoted different sources to support my position. No idea how is that a personal attack and against whom?
• On TBAN: I was banned from Sheikh Hasina but not Bangladesh in general, neither from Bangladeshi politics. My edit was to add a maintenance template to the article and had nothing to do with Sheikh Hasina. The election is not just about Hasina but also about the election of 299 other constituents. I don't see that as a violation although I'd be happy to revert myself if an admin clarifies otherwise.

A.Musketeer (talk) 06:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Considering that Shohure Jagoron wrote Agreed, there seems to be no indication that would disqualify one or the other, and so it’s most logical to leave it as “Bengalis” in the former Discussion section, I can hardly be accused of trying to "manipulate" their opinion when it was always Bengalis—I was just trying to get them to clarify their !vote. I have directly replied to just two other !votes: yours and 74.12.97.59's, which is a far cry from literally going after every editor who is !voting for the opposite position. I only replied to other conversations because I was explicitly pinged by another editor and asked to comment. Malerisch (talk) 10:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

A.Musketeer has a long history of going against anyone who opposes their view. Malerisch is not the first editor A.Musketeer attacked, and will not be the last editor. Coordinated efforts of Nomian and A.Musketeer has vandalized ALL the articles on Bangladeshi Liberation War. 103.184.172.37 (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I blocked the IP after an unacceptable personal attack. Doug Weller talk 14:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Just to let everyone know, a lot has been going on at a similar page. Talk:Rape during the Bangladesh Liberation War. ShaanSengupta^Talk 16:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You're repeatedly trying to archive an ongoing thread, I don't know why. These threads have raised concerns about the current state of the article. So archiving these manually, even when the last comment was just 20 days ago, is a disruption in the conversion. Please refrain from doing these. Salekin.sami36 (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Tagging editors just because they were pinged and didn't !vote you want them to, when there is no indication they were pinged because of their views, is kind of WP:DISRUPTIVE. Especially tagging people who had edited in this topic area going back a decade or so. So I think at least on that account User:Malerisch has a point about User:A.Musketeer. Volunteer Marek 16:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• A demonstration of the off-wiki coordination is there for everyone to see I guess. A.Musketeer (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • What in the world are you talking about? Volunteer Marek 07:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

    Musketeer is just accusing entire Bangladeshi editors at this point. This editor should be community-banned from ever editing any topic related to Bangladesh. 45.248.151.129 (talk) 13:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC) Note: WP:SOCKSTRIKE

Incivility by EEng

EEng (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I believe that it's necessary to open a thread to report recent incivility by EEng. I came across incivil comments made by them on the 1st January, and left a message on their talk page to that effect (user talk thread: Special:Permalink/1193451579#Incivility). I have come across further incivil comments they have made since then, so I am now opening a thread on the matter at AN/I as I do not know what else to do, and I do not wish to ignore the incivility.

The initial incivil comments I noticed made by EEng recently were in an AN/I discussion (archived here) regarding a close on Talk:Self-referential humor. They included an aggressive response to Voorts (CONSENSUS? Are you fucking kidding? [diff]), as well as attempts to put down editors based on perceived differences in experience (And as an inexperienced editor, you need to stop playing eager beaver and closing discussion's on issues you don't understand. You're not going to get to be an admin this way, trust me. [diff]; Thanks for telling me what ANI is for, editor-with-literally-one-fifteenth-the-experience-I-have! [diff]) and defending their own incivility (No reason [to get aggressive] other than that you're continuing to waste a lot of people's time. [diff]). {{subst:#invoke:String|match|they|%A*}}{{subst:uc:{{subst:#invoke:String|sub|{{subst:#invoke:String|match|they|%a.*}}|1|1}}}}{{subst:#invoke:String|sub|{{subst:#invoke:String|match|they|%a.*}}|2}} also commented in a thread at Wikipedia talk:Closure requests, in which they put down Voorts for requesting a peer review of their close (In the name of Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and all the saints and apostles, will you get a clue and stop beating this dead horse? Find something useful to do and stop wasting people's time in your endless search for approbation for what you've been told over and over was a huge boner on your part. [diff]). In addition, they replied in an incivil manner to a message left on their user talk page from DIYeditor regarding talk page reply formatting (Thanks, but with my 33,000 talk-page contributions to your 3,000, I don't need any schooling from you on how to do stuff, nor am I cowed by lame complaints about broken screenreaders from the 1990s. You misrepresented my views and I responded as I saw fit. Don't ever fuck with my posts again. [diff]).

The most recent incivil comments by EEng - and the ones which prompted me to open this thread - were on Kanashimi's talk page, in a thread regarding Cewbot (Or, instead of telling 10,000 other editors to do something, you can stop flooding watchlists. Now you've really pissed me off. What the fuck is the urgency of this fiddling with article assessments? [diff]; Excuse me, you two fucking geniuses, those of us who actually care about articles (i.e. not those who invest their time gnoming template whitespace) do want to see bot edits, because bot edits can and do often screw things up. That's why we turn off suppression of bot edits. [...] If you two did any actual article editing you'd know about subtleties like that. [diff]).

All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 21:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

trying to police cursing on wikipedia isn't going to work out, many have tried in the past.^Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 21:44, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

And trying to curse police EEng is about as productive as tilting at windmills. A smart kitten, this won’t boomerang but it also won’t go anywhere; I suggest you withdraw it and save a lot of time. BilledMammal (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

One of the problems is, I can't imagine this sort of incivility being tolerated from an average Wikipedia editor (and almost certainly not a new one). From my perspective, incivility such as this is actively harmful to the project - for one thing, it has the potential to drive away other editors - and failure to take action in response to it risks entrenching a toxic culture. While I appreciate your suggestion,^/gen I don't wish to withdraw this filing. All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 22:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

We have policies against personal attacks for a reason. Users shouldn't have a special WP:UNBLOCKABLE status based on their amount of contributions, and asking editors to withdraw their reports because of this only contributes to the issue. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 00:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, that went an unexpected and novel direction. BilledMammal (talk) 05:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

(Without deep analysis) @EEng sounds like a very nice person. A definite warning here (if not a block). ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Surely you realize that your facetious remark about EEng is a personal attack. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Lepricavark see user @Cremastras comment before making any more accusations. ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 07:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Cremastra has no more pull here than anyone else. The fact that EEng is here for uncivil ad hominem sarcasm and you think a warning or block is in order and choose to express this with uncivil ad hominem sarcasm is almost unbearably ironic and farcical, so Lepricavark is absolutely correct to call you on it (even if "presonal attack" is a stretch; people love to bandy that phrase around, but it has a pretty specific definition which is not the same as "uncivil" or the policies would just be merged).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obvious that swearing isn't the problem here, it's the aggressive attitude. Some kind of response is warranted.🌺 Cremastra (talk) 22:14, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

What we need is some more detailed rules about running these sort of jobs. Kanashimi has done well by marking edits as bot and minor, and including a description of what the bot is doing. I don't want to hide bot edits because I am tracking problems with Cewbot. (Now resolved - touch wood.) EEng made a pretty reasonable request: given that the issue is pretty insignificant, the daily number of bot edits could be decreased to reduce the pressure on watchlists, and allow for some issues to be resolved with fewer mass reverts. The response from MSGJ was unsympathetic, hence EEng escalating. I escalated my own issue when I didn't get the expected response, perhaps unnecessarily. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion can be seen at User talk:Kanashimi#Stop flooding watchlists, please where EEng asks "Please slow it down. No hurry." That is a perfect request. The underlying issue appears to be that Cewbot is updating article talk page headers and apparently there will be around 4 million more just for {{WPBS}}. As usual, there are two camps: those who maintain articles and want to see related activity, and those that adjust talk headers. Both groups are important but getting the other side disqualified because they use strong language when faced with waffle is not going to happen. Johnuniq (talk) 23:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is absurd. EEng's comments can't be waved away. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

For clarity, I don't mean to take a position regarding how fast/slow the bot tasks should run. I opened this thread because of the recent incivility displayed by EEng (not just in the discussion regarding bots), not intending to attempt to disqualify any side in that conversation. All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 23:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I mean, that's true, but when the scope of the task is every talk page ever (per community consensus to change the way article assessments work) it's going to be a bit spammy unless you want it to take twenty years. It's already running quite slowly for the scope. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:01, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

You were firm but polite. EEng was rude and insulting to two separate editors. Nothing Qwerfjkl or MSGJ said warranted being cursed out or called incompetent. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:03, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• While I don't expect it to stick, I've blocked EEng for a period of 72h for a pattern of incivility towards other editors. While individually those replies would at most merit a warning, put together they show a considerable lack of respect towards other editors, as well as a lack of WP:AGF. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 23:08, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 23:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  “While I don't expect it to stick, I've blocked…”

  Is that a pre-declared block against consensus? SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:29, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  As others have observed before – EEng is unblockable. Someone will likely unblock him shortly for some arcane reason, when, frankly, he should be blocked for several months for his continuous flagrant violations of incivility 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  The block was done as an individual admin's action, no consensus is strictly required. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 23:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  True, but, I read you as implying that you thought the block would be found to be against consensus. Now, I read it as being politely tentative, seeing the !votes below showing that it will stick. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

   Comment: EEng made this comment, asking it be copied over to ANI. I think that's not unreasonable.

  I always figure that if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job. I stand by my comments, obviously.
  After the bot operator was repeatedly asked to slow the thing down, and David Eppstein specifically explained why hiding all bot edits wasn't a feasible solution [242], these two geniuses showed up to high-handedly smirk to each other about how dumb David and I are for not realizing we had unhidden all bot edits [243]. So while some might think me uncivil, at least I'm not uncivil and clueless -- a deadly combination

  🌺 Cremastra (talk) 23:39, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, how nice. He will return to continue to personally attack people based on minor disagreements and none of us will have any recourse because he has a high edit count which means he can say and do things that are blatantly cruel to people, without any regard for the rules 'lesser' accounts are subject to. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:50, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

   Comment: EEng has responded further on their talk page, I'm posting this here to clear up any confusion stemming from the previous comment.

  You completely misunderstand. I have no desire to be blocked, but I got over being ashamed of blocks long ago since, as everyone knows, a block only requires that one trigger-happy admin get high and mighty over something that others aren't exercised about. I'll admit that in this particular case I went from 0 to 100 pretty fast, but (as described above) being lectured a couple of script kiddies two editors who didn't bother to even read the thread so far (David Eppstein's point in particular -- which he's now reiterated, BTW [244]) does bring out the worst in me. EEng 23:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

  🌺 Cremastra (talk) 00:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Honestly? Acting like he doesn't care about blocks shows why, fundamentally, a 72-hour block is insufficient: he won't learn from his behavior, especially since this same behavior would have gotten "lesser" editors permanently blocked a long time ago. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed. He continues to stand by his behaviour and dismisses blocks as being from rogue admins. This person is not going to change when he comes back. JM (talk) 04:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The original comment above was edited by the user (dif), and I've brought over the removed and inserted text to reflect the changes. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block with the hope that EEng returns to editing with a more collaborative attitude. Some of the comments are borderline but Excuse me, you two fucking geniuses, those of us who actually care about articles ... is way over the WP:NPA line when conversing with bot operators carrying out a task that is supported by the community. EEng, you can do better. Cullen328 (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block. Given their extensive block log, however, I doubt this'll change their behaviour. Given their response to the block (I always figure that if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job. I stand by my comments, obviously.), I would support extending the block until EEng can make a commitment to be actually civil. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 23:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Good block. There will be an unblock with a finger wag and we'll be back here again in the circle of EEng, but this conduct has gone beyond their normal level of "I can say what I want, no one will block me." Star Mississippi 23:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Good block. I think Ingenuity makes a reasonable point, and if someone wants to extend the block I would support that as well. Mackensen (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Having had time to think on it, I would also support indef, based mostly on the people opposing such an action. It's fine that GoodDay (to take one example) doesn't mind getting insulted on the regular, but that's not scalable and certainly not the kind of project I want to participate in. Mackensen (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)Endorse block; propose extension: besides EEng's long pattern of incivility, they have failed to actually commit to following Wikipedia's policies, as noted by Ingenuity above. This is not a minor problem.

Either

1. Block EEng indefinitely from the project to prevent further attacks, as an extension of this block; or
2. Give EEng I trial run of two months or so (after this block expires). If they can make and uphold a commitment to be civil for that time, well and good. Otherwise, block them indefinitely from the project to prevent further attacks.

🌺 Cremastra (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• A Good block...for as long as it lasts and for all the good it will do. "if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job".[98] DeCausa (talk) 23:58, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Good block, support extension. On top of the incivility, their attitude, especially towards newer editors, shows a deep misunderstanding of what Wikipedia is, and isn't a productive way to go about. Again, a user's edit count or celebrity shouldn't bring about an "unblockable" status. Letting this slide once again only reinforces the attitude of "they can say whatever they want without risking anything". ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 00:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I would support an indefinite block, with the caveat that "indefinite" doesn't and shouldn't mean "forever". In this case, it should be until EEng shows a willingness to reform, and a genuine, good-faith appeal should be considered by either administrators or the community. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 16:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Extend the block indefinitely. Given EEng's block log, I do not believe a 72 hour block is enough. Furthermore, their comment that "if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job" suggests that they have no intention of changing their attitude. In fact, I will go as far as to say that I support a site ban; it's no secret that EEng is an "unblockable", and a site ban is really the only solution to dealing with their repeated incivility. SkyWarrior 00:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• I don't know if I'm meant to comment here given I opened the thread, but for the avoidance of doubt regarding my position, I would support a site ban for the same reasons as SkyWarrior, extend block to indefinite as second choice. Best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 00:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I wanted to add something more here to properly expand on the reasons for my view/!vote; however (due to my own personal stress levels & general difficulty in being able to put things into words), when I tried, I found that I wasn't able to write much very well right now, for which I apologise.

  However, I have been reading the comments that have been made while this thread has been open, and I just wanted to note that my position is also per what's been said by Apaugasma, Ivanvector, SergeWoodzing, Thebiguglyalien, Ravenswing & others. At this point, given all of what's been said & what I've read, I believe that a siteban/indef is a measure necessary to prevent further incivility from EEng, and to prevent further harm to the project resulting from such. All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 21:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Cremastra You might want to consider taking a step back from this topic for a few hours. It seems to have been lost on you that when you told EEng to stop being a jerk, you ignored the advice in that very essay to not call people jerks. I think you've made your point, and your comments on EEng's talk page seem to make more heat than light. EducatedRedneck (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support extended block until EEng shows any indication that he understands why these kinds of comments are inappropriate. I do not support a siteban. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block, obviously. EEng is Wikipedia's self-appointed court jester; nobody asked him to be, nobody thinks a court jester is a good idea on a project that values collaboration and civility, and various editors keep asking him to stop, but he won't. He never sees any kind of real consequence other than the occasional definite block that he's more than happy to sit out since it means he never has to modify his behaviour, and there's a small group of editors that cheer him on and always an admin who will invent a rationale to unblock, so why would he ever improve? Nothing will change unless and until EEng sees real consequences, but I've been around long enough to know that enough of his friends will turn up to prevent it from happening, so I'm not about to bother proposing it myself. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 00:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support Supporting EEng, because when you shake Wikipedia up a bit you find that he's one of its most productive, social, and interesting editors. 72 hours has a nice ring to it, and the minutes will go by like seconds. But any more than that has a "Blood in the water, come on, over here over here" feel to it, and Wikipedians should be better than that. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  And then he'll do it again, and again, and again. He's productive and clearly means well but he also has absolutely no regard to being civil and communicating properly, because this community has let him do whatever he wanted for years without meaningful reprisal, so he has had absolutely no incentive to change anything. Maybe actually hold him accountable for once and he'll change his behavior, or maybe not, but it's better than nothing.

  There's really no reason to let this stand when this has happened before and he shows no sign it will not happen again. PARAKANYAA (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't spoken personally to EEng yet, but from what I've read, I think it's fair to say he is all of the good things people have to say about him, but at the same time it's also clear he has a pattern of egregious behavior in certain situations that people have a right to be upset about. I agree: I think the behavior should be addressed, but we shouldn't lose sight one way or the other. 72 seems fine for this. Remsense留 01:03, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The real problem I have with this thesis is the idea that some editors are irreplaceable, therefore we should tolerate some amount of otherwise unacceptable behavior. That's not a sustainable way to run a project; it's terrible for the retention of newer editors. Mackensen (talk) 01:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's an ongoing phenonemon that long-established editors considered "productive" bite the newcomers and get away with a lot more despite the fact that they should know the rules better than newcomers. JM (talk) 01:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Being "productive, social and interesting" doesn't grant anyone the right to not follow basic civility like WP:NPA. We don't give rights to Wikipedians based on how "interesting" we find them. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  He also wasn't being "productive, social and interesting" when he repeatedly insulted me. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  If the minutes will go by like seconds, then it needs to be extended, because he'll only have to wait "seconds" to resume the behaviour. JM (talk) 01:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

•  EEng's reply, copied from their talk page: I sincerely appreciate your taking the time to visit me here in my holding cell, and to show my good faith I've modified my post per your suggestion. But let me explain a little. I'm a technical person myself, and many were the years during which my technical prowess put me in a position where the quality of people's lives was very much in my hands. And one thing I always despised was a high-handed attitude, on the part of some of my technical colleagues, toward people not as in-the-know as they were. And that's the attitude I detected in that discussion when those two presumed to inform me (a computer scientist and systems engineer for 45 years) and David Eppstein (a professor of computer science) that the flooding of our watchlists was somehow our fault, because we'd overridden the option to hid bots edits -- like we didn't know what we were doing or something. That fact is, they don't know what they were doing, because if they did they'd have realized they need to run that bot task in some different way to avoid much annoyance to many people. So I blew my stack a bit. To be honest I thought better of it just after hitting [Publish changes], but just then the dog vomited on the rug so my priorities suddenly shifted. EEng 00:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC) -- Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

This comment was made in reply to my suggestion, here, which they complied with, here. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 01:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@EEng I'm going to try and put in my first cents to an ANI discussion here: You and David are two people who think that the bot should be slower for all users, while 3 or 4 other people think that you should just put down the smart watchlist script (which David hasn't replied to; in fact they just left a single comment and then get swept up in this huge discussion... gonna be a shock after he arises from his slumber). There hasn't been anyone else who believes that the bot should slow down for everyone instead of prospective editors filtering it out individually. Not to mention that every comment except maybe the word "gee" was perfectly civil, and I don't see this holier-than-thou attitude you describe when I try to put myself in your shoes. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

In fact I have replied stating that telling us to ignore what the bots do and pretending they're always correct is not an acceptable response. So telling me "just use this script and you can pretend that the bots aren't screwing up all our content while you don't watch" is non-responsive and does not need me to dignify it by a reply.

As for "gonna be a shock after he arises from his slumber": This sort of language is an uncivil personal attack, at least at the same level at which we are defining EEng's comments on the bot talk page as being an uncivil personal attack. It is ironic seeing such language on a comment thread about incivility on ANI. Retract and apologize, please. (And for your information, I am on a fairly normal Pacific time schedule. As I post this it is currently late afternoon / early evening.) —David Eppstein (talk) 01:56, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

How do you see gonna be a shock after he arises from his slumber as an "uncivil personal attack"? The way I read it, he's saying that he thinks it is going to be shocking for you to wake up to a huge discussion like this out of nowhere. The idea that such a comment is somehow not only an uncivil personal attack, but on the level of Excuse me, you two fucking geniuses, those of us who actually care about articles... makes no sense to me. JM (talk) 02:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying. Apologies if that offended you, but I don't think it's anywhere near EEng's sudden attacks after three or four civil replies from others.

Every single task of Cewbot is approved by community consensus; I don't see why you think that it'd be screwing over articles, especially since the only edits it does in main/talkspace are fixing broken anchors, in which the worst case would either be easily spotted or not affect anything at all. Ordering them to slow it down would not solve any of the problems said. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The other bots that I follow are also approved by community consensus. Often they do good things. Occasionally they do bad things. If unwatched, despite being rare, the bad things pile up. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn’t cleaning them after piling up have the same effect? If it were slower, the bot will only suddenly mass-“attack” pages every, say, half hour, which doesn’t seem like it’ll clean up the watchlist much either. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, "I'm sorry you took it the wrong way but I don't think I did anything wrong" is neither a retraction nor an apology. It was a personal attack on my level of awareness, and you are demonstrating the same sort of insistence that it was somehow a justified personal attack that has already gotten EEng blocked. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain why you think it's a personal attack, so he can have a better idea of what you have a problem with? JM (talk) 03:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I read "gonna be a shock after he arises from his slumber" as implying that David would be surprised when he logged back on (with "his slumber" not referring to his personal mental state, but to literally being afk) to find that a discussion he was involved in had erupted into an AN/I thread. I'm not sure how that's a personal attack. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

That's how I read it as well, as I said above. I don't see how this can be construed as a personal attack. I've seen admins express surprise at threads exploding before after returning from a short period of inactivity. JM (talk) 03:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant “I’m sorry, I think I shouldn’t have said that. However, I don’t think that was on the same level of frustration or hostility as EEng's comments.” Aaron Liu (talk) 12:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Half the time I don't know whether EEng is serious; the other half I don't know if they're kidding.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  EEng's explanation seems fine, and because he thought better of it upon hitting "publish" and has since changed the wording shows awareness of the situation. EEng speaks and writes in honest language, a rare treat on Wikipedia, and asking for full conformity to robothood seems to be more an urge to tame than to let wild things run free. Each person has their own personality (it's literally in the word), and it's from that personality that a volunteer spirit emerges that blends well with the concept and creation of Wikipedia. EEng has contributed much, and that's nothing to sneeze at. Again, editors who have the personality to pile on when they see a wounded creature have their place in Wikipedia as well, but not at the expense of harming the project. 72 hours in the penalty box has its adherents, and maybe next time he'll leave the dog puke on the floor for an extra minute and change the edit that he sensed he should have changed just as he sent it. We've all been there, throw the first stone, whiffleball pitching at the Moon, but please, as Wikipedians, think twice about the tendency to pile on and realize that "assume good faith" goes in all directions. Randy Kryn (talk) 01:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  There's a difference between "full conformity to robothood" and just having the smallest amount of civility required to work on a project. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Each person has their own personality is not an excuse to insult other people at random. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block and extend indefinitely per above, particularly SkyWarrior, C.E., and Cremastra. Also this, where the user states I always figure that if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job. I stand by my comments, obviously. Also, the topic of "unblockables" has come up, I'll say that I think the very existence of unblockables damages the site because of the amount of damage an unblockable user can do, regardless of any of their beneficial actions. I've also had enough of people who refuse to compromise or back down until they've actually been blocked. JM (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, support siteban so that a single admin can't come along and negate all this. JM (talk) 02:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  OK, I think that's a little too harsh. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block, neutral indef per Randy. They seem cooperative to us for the time being, and I don't see much more harm that could be done if the block were temporary instead of indef; though maybe we should extend the block until we sort this out because of EEng's comments, the former of which is apparently what an indef is? Which is why I'm neutral as to indef. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. As someone who is, on a regular basis, accused of being an apologist for EEng, I'm going to (1) say to EEng here that he should get down off his high horse, and not be so full of himself, and while he's at it, try to be kinder to other editors, and (2) tell those who keep thinking that EEng is unblockable because he has enablers to (after looking at his block log, hint, hint) take a look at User talk:Tryptofish#Your wiki-friend, where it emerges that I have been telling EEng this for a very long time. As for all this voting on the block, I'm going to say something that I hope is more nuanced. The block was within process, and it certainly adds to a long list of evidence that EEng is anything but unblockable, but it was also not particularly helpful. These kinds of I'm an administrator, and I'm going to take a stand for civility by adding yet another block to an established editor's block log blocks are, frankly, performative. I haven't got the faintest idea what anyone thinks it's going to "prevent". And this brings me to what I think of those editors who are saying here that the block should be extended to indefinite. I recognize that this is coming from a sincere place, and I get it, that it makes Wikipedia less enjoyable when users feel that they have been disrespected. But it's appropriate to weigh the plusses against the minuses. Language about editors being "net positives" or "net negatives" is kind of yucky, in the way that it reduces real people to mere ratios. But EEng is a net positive (as, alas, he will likely tell you, himself). --Tryptofish (talk) 01:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) About "if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job", I hope that editors can tell the difference between not caring about Wikipedia, and venting after being blocked. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: One reason such language is, as you said, "yucky" is because once we decide a person is a net positive, we're implicitly letting them break the rules just as long as they stay in the black, so to speak. We never have to have such conversations about the many, many premium editors who contribute just as well as the best of EEng while rarely/never causing this kind of drama. When it comes to deciding whether EEng is or is not a net positive, do you take into account how much time is wasted on stuff like this? That he persists in calling other users assholes or whatever takes away from his status as a net positive. That those users frequently start threads like this, ones that always stretch on for miles and never accomplish anything conclusive, also takes away from his status as a net positive, doesn't it? It would be so, so easy for him to contribute to this website while not violating policy so much and so often that he instigates the creation of timesinks like this all the time. Countless editors do just that. The fact that he refuses contributes to the very widespread belief that he does more harm than good, and his most ardent supporters really ought to agree on that.

For that matter, shouldn't apologists/"apologists" like you want him to be blocked indefinitely? He'd be able to get an indef reversed in 30 seconds because all he'd need to do is bang out a quick note explaining what he did wrong and promising not to do it again. Then he'd join the ranks of editors who make as many positive contributions as he does without ever dealing with threads like this. City of Silver 02:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I feel that your reply to me is glib. When I pointed out the flaws in calling an editor a net positive or negative, I was clearly talking about how we shouldn't reduce real people, with all their complexities, to a simple ratio. That you would try to turn that into what you said here shows that you ignored what I actually said. And I find that your reference to what almost amounts to "people like you" frankly insulting, which is a strange way to stand up for civility. Of course I don't want him to be indeffed. That should be obvious. You are of course talking about a real problem, insofar as the time wasted by ANI threads like this one. This is why I acknowledged the sincerity of editors who feel hurt by things EEng has said; it's also why I said that the block was unhelpful. I wrote WP:DEFARGE about this sort of thing. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: (googles ""define glib" just so I'm sure) No, I promise you, I truly meant what I said. I know you don't want EEng indeffed and I never said any different. What I'm saying is, I'm genuinely bewildered by that. I believe he'd file a successful appeal so fast he wouldn't even have to wait out the 68 or so hours he's got left on this block. You want EEng to keep editing here. You want his undeniably good contributions to continue. If he gets indeffed, you'll get what you want and as a bonus, the community won't have to endure threads like this any more. How on earth is this not a worthy outcome? City of Silver 03:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Re City of Silver's shouldn't apologists/"apologists" like you want him to be blocked indefinitely?: Some people have the integrity/stubbornness (call it what you will) to refuse to apologize when they don't believe they are in the wrong. I strongly suspect that EEng is in this camp, and that if this block is made indefinite (on the principle that the integrity of the encyclopedia requires an apology) there is a good chance that it will become permanent, because if you force it to become a test of wills then that's what it will become.

The question you need to be asking yourself is, would you rather participate in a project where some otherwise-productive people who occasionally get frustrated and use mild intemperate language get de facto permablocked in this way, and the only long-term participants are the few genuine saints who never get frustrated and those other people willing to make an insincere apology, or a project where some people evade "punishment" by being allowed to continue to participate after such outbursts? Keep in mind also that blocks are only supposed to be used to protect the integrity of the project, not to punish the deserving. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@David Eppstein: I believe that describing rhetoric like "you two fucking geniuses" as "mild intemperate language" is completely apart from reality. That isn't exactly a response to your question (after all, as you said it's one that I should be asking myself, and I'm not up for the ten millionth debate about how hostile EEng's remarks are or are not) but if you don't know where I'd stand on this, say so and I'll explicitly tell.

I actually agree that your question holds a lot of validity but that would be tied up in EEng's response to it, not mine. "Is the community really at risk of losing you entirely if your behavior is restricted how the people complaining about you want it to be?" I genuinely, sincerely don't believe he'd leave here. At the risk of being a pest, I'd like to know why you think differently. City of Silver 03:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, I believe that describing it as anything more than "mild intemperate language" is completely apart from reality. But you're welcome to your beliefs, as long as acting on them does not damage the project. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I didn't find EEng's comments particularly offensive. Frustrated, perhaps. — Qwerfjkltalk 10:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Same here. I think this is rather subcultural. Lots of us use such langage all the time in daily life, and others think it's beyond the pale. While I've learned to hardly ever do it myself on here (because the community leans in a disapproving direction on this), it was a learning curve. And it necessarily had to be, because the community standards in this regard have palpably shifted slowly over time. Even in the early 2010s, this ANI probably would have closed quickly with a bunch of eye-rolling about over-sensitivity. We swore at each other a lot more back then.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish I disagree. We all use language in different places as context demands. That's normal. EEng has edited here for over fifteen years. He's decided that this is how he speaks on Wikipedia. In 2006, my own use of Fuck you toward another user, on this very noticeboard, led to immediate pushback, although then, as now, people were prepared to defend it. It's here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive136#Proposing community impatience ban for Freestylefrappe. That was a long time ago, but I note four things: (1) Reading the whole discussion from the vantage point of 2024, I'm embarrassed; (2) I never did that again; (3) I apologized to the person I attacked; and (4) even then, the project was grappling with the problem of senior editors who overstep reasonable limits. The arguments defending the latter haven't really changed much over time. Mackensen (talk) 03:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Bear in mind that fuck you is very different from what happened in this case. I'm not supporting the language used but it was different. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and users have gotten way with "fuck you" in recent memory anyway. "You two fucking geniuses" is clearly not civil, but it's kind of a sitcom-style "antagonistic humor" approach suggesting the writer thinks the recipients are doing something boneheaded and means to get that point across. In a previous era it might have come out as "you two knuckleheads". Constructive? No. Likely to offend? Yes. An actual attack? No. If had been something much more direct like "you two fucking morons" I would agree that it was one (see the subthread below about City of Silver for an actual personal attack about someone's mental capacities, which was doubled-down on). Something like "you two need to go fuck yourselves" would be in the middle (being neither a sarcasto-humorous jibe nor a personal attack but just raw hostility).

I have several more issues with the pillorying here, aside from this WP:CIVIL != WP:NPA one:

1. EEng has had several years now of incident-free editing (nothing of note since 2021), but this is being treated as if he was in here and sanctioned just last week. If someone has a comparatively minor melt-down every few years, that is generally something the community can live with.
2. His ANI trackrecord has been distorted/exaggerated, since being brought to ANI but not sanctioned in a proceeding is not evidence of wrongdoing. (EEng has been sanctioned before, but not every noticeboarding shows consensus that he was in the wrong.) Nor does the community intend to use evidence from a long time ago as a permanent "scarlet letter" in behaviorial-lapse matters like this. (It's actually pertinent when there's a WP:NOTHERE problem, like pushing a fringe or neo-Nazi or other "warp the content to my PoV" agenda; people with civility issues tend to improve over time even if still suffering an occasional lapse, but someone who is here to promote a conspiracy theory or whatever is never going to "improve" even if they futz around quasi-productively in some other topics for a while as a smokescreen before returning to their real purpose.)
3. The fact that some people have a rather irrational overreaction to "strong language" automatically inspires a hangin' judge reaction from them: they are both more likely to comment and much more likely to favor excessive sanctions than someone not triggered by those particular text strings; this is a strong selection bias, on top of the already observable one that anyone in favor of a negative action is more likely to comment here than someone who is not.
4. EEng has difficulty resisting the urge to try to be funny, often in a sarcastic direction (sometimes in ways that take multiple reads to get the full point), and also has a tendency toward deflection as self-defense; these habits are frequently misinterpreted as recalitrance, lack of understanding, or dismissiveness, and there is a great deal of that misinterpretation and outright recasting of his comments to mean whatever the angry respondent here wishes they meant (more on that below). There is a big difference between implication and inference, but it is being ignored with impunity in this thread.
5. It is not possible for someone to simultaneously be an "unblockable" that admins and old hands are supposedly protecting at all costs (i.e. someone we should dogpile on) and yet also have a non-trivial block and other sanctions log (i.e. someone we should dogpile on). That's cognitively dissonant bullshit and just a means of trying to reach a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" result. (I guess now I'll be put up for a ban too, for daring to use a "swear-word" in the course of being critical of some people's arguments.)
6. Below, EEng's own statements are being mis-cast, with the claim that he "requested" an indef; what he really indicated was that he was sorry for the community trouble he'd caused, and that it would be more productive to block him than continue debating it in ANI, and that he'd make an unblock request after some time had passed. [99] This is by no means a "just block me forever, I quit" statement, and shows precisely the contrition and reflection that various parties in here claim he does not show.
7. This is by no means the only time his comments in this very proceeding have been badly distorted with the sole aim of banning a long-term and highly productive editor simply for not having offended someone and not having abased himself in a way that precisely satisfies the disapproving party. Just one of over a dozen examples: "the incivility which he has outright told us he has no intentions to stop". That's distortion that verges on blatant fabrication.

So, no, I'm not on board with this at all. I repeat: we need to retain editors who are generally productive, not chase them away just to make a point and smooth someone's feathers. If I ran to ANI every time someone offended me, I'd do little but be complaining in ANI every other day. "Someone was mean to me and made me out to look like I was doing something foolish or disruptive" does not equate to "someone needs to be banned" (even if their implication was wrong, which is not at all proven here). Cf. my actual ANI activity of late, where I have reported patently NOTHERE parties and got them indeffed, but also gone out of my way to retain a confused and often small-time disruptive noob because they have potential, and to retain but topic-restrict a CoI/SPA despite his BLP problems about one subject, because he has reasonable input into another – despite (and this is important here) him being grossly uncivil to several parties in the course of that (even implying two of them were cultists or cult apologists for not letting him get his way without RS in material about cults); I supported retaining him because he showed contrition and understanding why this was no okay (as EEng has done here). Always look for a way to keep an editor who is not just here to cause trouble.

Above it was said that "The arguments defending ... senior editors who overstep reasonable limits ... haven't really changed much over time" [since the 2000s]. I have to suggest that this is strong evidence of community consensus in favor of retaining generally productive editors even if they screw up from time to time. We do sometimes eventually ban such people anyway, but only when the problems they cause finally come to outweigh the good they do, i.e. when they become a net negative. EEng has not. The cases I can think of were people who were clearly becoming more and more frustrated with everyone around them, getting in increasing numbers of conflicts with increasingly battlegroundy results. That's not happening here. EEng just popped off in way that has actually become decreasingly characteristic of him over the years.

If EEng "goes after" the same editors again, different story. If his behavior escalates into a string of additional and worsening incivility towards other parties, different story. If after another three entire years he slips up again and uses some swear words and sarcasm toward someone, we can look at it again, but it's probably also not going to be something ban-worthy. No one has to have perfect behavior here. This is a huge project full of very different people, and getting along as well as we're practically able is a means to an end; getting along flawlessly all the time is not the end itself.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC); rev'd 10:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

blocks are only supposed to be used to protect the integrity of the project, not to punish the deserving Exactly. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 09:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Any block here is prevantative, not punitive. It would prevent the user from engaging in the incivility which he has outright told us he has no intentions to stop. That would be an indef for any new user. My account is 11 months old, I'm sure I would be indeffed for saying what he's saying about this block if I was ever blocked. JM (talk) 17:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Good block as a start; however, the situation indicates further action is needed. This is not an isolated incident, and EEng said it all himself: ...if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job. If an editor here sixteen days declared that their motivation here was to go against Wikipedia principles and policy, and that being blocked was a badge of honor, they'd be indeffed as NOTHERE in short order. While there can be some leeway and understanding for an editor here nearly sixteen years, I don't think that applies when incivility is the standard pattern and not an out-of-character outburst. There are calls above for a siteban; it is difficult to disagree with those. Unblockables aren't as unblockable as they used to be. For years I've seen incivility used as a way for editors to get what they want by intimidating others into submission. Civility is a pillar, not some obscure guideline. While perfection is not expected, these principles ought to be held in high regard. For an editor to openly declare that it shouldn't apply to them speaks for itself. --Sable232 (talk) 01:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support extending block to indefinite and the word "extending" feels inapt because it would get lifted earlier than the end of the 72-hour block. Levy an indef, let EEng complete the extremely simple task of appealing via WP:NICETRY, and reap the undeniable benefits of his good work without having to deal with complaints like this over and over. His defenders should be chomping at the bit to get him indeffed because a successful appeal would require he finally stop doing the stuff that gets him dragged here all the time and of course they all would want that, right? City of Silver 02:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I have a real problem with the net positive / net negative lens. It's always cast as "net positive to the project", which elides that someone out there, not the project in the aggregate, but a real live editor, is experiencing the negative aspect of someone's behavior. This isn't exactly "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas", but it came to mind. Mackensen (talk) 12:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Closing side discussion. Isabelle Belato 🏳‍🌈 12:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe the word jabberwocky sums up this comment well. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC) @The Blade of the Northern Lights: I honestly cannot believe I'm getting dogpiled by this guy's supporters. What a world. City of Silver 04:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC) I didn't realize how dysfunctional Wikipedia can be until becoming a frequent editor. JM (talk) 04:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC) I am going to copy the edit summary for City of Silver's comment above in full here: is this the new thing? Being gentle on the noticeboard and saving the actual nastiness for the edit summary? Fine, I'll do that, and I'll even ping you because I'm not a coward like you. Would the person reading this out loud for User:The Blade of the Northern Lights please tell them they shouldn't get mad at me because I can read and they can't? But City of Silver wants EEng indeffed for being uncivil. Yes, JM2023, Wikipedia is very dysfunctional. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC) @Lepricavark: You forgot to copypaste Blade's remark to me and its accompanying edit summary. It'll help your case because an administrator appearing from out of nowhere to insult me like that is nothing compared to how I replied, right? City of Silver 04:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC) Blade's edit summary expressed confusion at what you were trying to say. I do not believe it was uncivil. Pointedness is not the same as incivility. You responded by calling him a coward and saying that he can't read. Those are both obvious personal attacks. I am not interested in arguing with you, and I do not expect that you will reconsider your choice of words. But I do suspect that most open-minded observers will be able to detect the inconsistency between your !vote for an indef and your own incivility. As for your complaint about an administrator appearing from out of nowhere to reply to you (and not, as you mistakenly claim, to insult you), this is a public noticeboard. Do you expect some kind of advance notice before people respond to your comments? LEPRICAVARK (talk) 05:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC) @Lepricavark: I asked why you didn't include the text of the reply User:The Blade of the Northern Lights left me and its accompanying edit summary but maybe I was in the wrong for doing that since I knew. If you reproduced their claim that my message is akin to "Jabberwocky", a literary work that our article describes as "a nonsense poem", you then claiming that was merely them speaking pointedly and not a violation of NPA would look awfully silly. Really: I absolutely believe this because I can think of literally no other reason for you to exclude what they said about my message, which was "I believe the word jabberwocky sums up this comment well." Let me be clear: My words regarding Blade's lack of literacy and bravery are me speaking with pointedness, nothing more. If you're complying with our guideline asking editors to assume good faith, you can't read what I just said and still believe it was a personal attack. It's good that you're "not interested in arguing" with me because Blade's reply and edit summary were insults, you wrongly said they weren't, I've now corrected you twice, and this approach from you means we're both good to let my correction of your mistake stand. City of Silver 05:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC) Blade criticized your comment by implying that it was nonsensical. You attacked Blade personally by calling him a coward who cannot read. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 06:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC) @Lepricavark: You have this exactly backwards. User:The Blade of the Northern Lights violated NPA by calling my comment nonsense and hiding an even harsher personal attack in the edit summary. I replied to that with pointedness, not a personal attack, by calling Blade "a coward who cannot read" and explaining how I'd deduced that. Let's keep going back and forth on this, though. City of Silver 06:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC) I would laugh, but you seem to be serious. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 07:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC) And where did I say I was a supporter of anyone here? I was reading this discussion and saw a comment that made absolutely no sense, if I was supporting or opposing an unblock for EEng I'd have said so. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC) @The Blade of the Northern Lights: I interpret the following as personal attacks: Your claim that you "believe the word jabberwocky sums up this comment well" regarding my message Your edit summary on that message that said "What in god's name is this trying to say?" Your claim that my message "made absolutely no sense." Please retract all of them. City of Silver 06:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC) Those are all characterizations of a comment, not attacks aimed at the person who made the comment. Getting your feelings hurt because your writing undergoes criticism is not the same thing as being personally attacked. If it were, all reviewers at Did You Know and Good Articles would be blocked. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC) I've now tried, on three occasions, to parse your original comment. As best I can follow the train of thought, EEng's supporters should be pushing for EEng to be indefinitely blocked so he can be unblocked. I entirely fail to see the logic, and have no compunction about saying so. Any comments about my reading comprehension are misguided at best, I have records of all my reading assessments from a very young age and I'm definitively not on the illiterate side of the bell curve. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC) When I first saw your comment (and before anyone replied) I considered striking it as likely to produce more heat than light, but figured I'd just get reverted anyway and let it stand. In the cool light of reason, do you think an unadorned comment asking City of Silver to further explain what they meant would have been the better choice? Mackensen (talk) 09:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block, oppose further action – I don't think EEng should be indeffed for this, but I also don't think we should just roll over every time he offends someone. If he won't learn to take a break when he gets upset, we'll give him one. 72 hours is good this time. – bradv 02:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block and I would be open to supporting editing restrictions to curb the unwarranted aggression shown in the OP's quoted comments. In that most recent quoted situation, I can't find any conceivable reason to escalate the situation.

1. The bot was making edits within policy and with an explicit consensus at BRfA.
2. The bot operator Kanashimi paused operations less than a half hour after EEng's message.
3. Kanashimi and Qwerfjkl quickly worked—exceedingly kindly, as far as I can see!—to find a solution for EEng's original problem (watchlist flooding) without slowing the approved task to a glacial pace.
4. Kanashimi and Qwerfjkl didn't assume any knowledge on EEng's part, which was part of EEng's problem... but that was also probably the correct way to approach the situation, as who would assume that the random person they are messaging spent 45 years as a computer scientist?

• The thing that stands out to me after reading that discussion is if EEng had practiced the most basic form of WP:AGF, we wouldn't be here right now. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 04:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Put down the pitchforks and take a deep breath. So much for EEng being an unblockable. This thread quickly devolved into a mob out for blood. The 72-hour block was reasonable. Let EEng serve out the block and then go back to being a productive editor. When he messes up again, give him another short block. We do not need to be indeffing valuable contributors for occasionally stepping out of line. As for the suggestion that EEng gets away with comments that would get a new editor blocked, please note this snide personal jab from ASmallMapleLeaf, who is a very new editor, at the beginning of this thread. Nobody seems to care about that. I guess it's okay for a new editor to be uncivil as long as they are attacking one of the so-called unblockables. How about if everyone calms down and quits trying to run off a net-positive editor who has already been punished? This sort of mob mentality has no place on Wikipedia. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Well put, I agree with this. BilledMammal (talk) 05:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with this. Something additional beyond the 72 hours will probably be needed to effect a genuine course change, but let's not have a lynch mob. North8000 (talk) 06:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I can understand where @Lepricavarks viewpoint since he joined later in the thread, but my comment was the 3rd comment made on this thread. No I wasn't aware it would get this much attention until I saw his account age (4 years). The comment was made before they were blocked and I honestly thought he wouldn't be blocked (rather warned) and so I decided to confirm the comments itself were incivil (to me) and that @A smart kitten wasn't trying to police 'swearing' as someone else claimed, and as such warranted some sort of action. I don't know how that is a personal attack ?(context applied)

  ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 07:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, I think you know which part of your comment was a personal attack. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 09:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  'You know which part' no I don't please elaborate on how the (short) statement can be classified as a WP:NOPERSONALATTACKS violation? ASmallMapleLeaf (talk) 11:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fully agree. The heat here is now far exceeding the light. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 10:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Hear hear! ~Awilley (talk) 13:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Nothing further needed Wikipedia is supposed to favor inclusivity yet struggles to cope with the fact that EEng occasionally expresses himself forcefully. If contributors are unable to cope with that, short blocks can be used. Jumping to indef in a situation like this is totally inappropriate. It would better if people were to focus on the underlying issue (mass adjustment of article talk page headers) but ANI is not the right place for that. Johnuniq (talk) 07:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I agree that no further action is needed, but really? Acting like punishing very blatant personal attacks is against inclusivity? What?? Dialmayo (talk) (Contribs) she/her 12:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm neutral regarding the indef, but I am not neutral regarding this message. If inclusivity is to be a criterion for evaluating the block imposed on the user, then this is some next level doublespeak, coming from an admin no less. The user has a history of personal attacks and hostility, a pretty extensive block log linked to said behaviour, but according to you he should not be further blocked because we are supposed to favour inclusivity? In the name of inclusivity we are expected to allow a person to get away with behaviour that clearly makes other users feel unincluded? We have two dozen people right here finding his attitude toward other users block worthy (whether temp or indef), which evidently points to "inclusivity" being at odds with the editor's conduct. Ostalgia (talk) 14:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Observation I find hyperbolic metaphors to actual physical violence such as "pitchforks" and "mobs" and especially "lynch mob" to be deeply unhelpful here. Nobody is proposing to stab EEng with the sharpened tines of a hay rake. Nobody is proposing to tie a noose around EEng's neck and string him up from the tree in the town square, with a postcard photographer documenting the atrocity. We are debating what the appropriate sanction ought to be for an editor who has been blocked, by my count, 17 times. Although I am not supporting an indefinite block myself at this time, supporting that is not an outlandish stance to take since EEng has a long well-documented history of failing to keep their "angry court jester" persona under control. Cullen328 (talk) 08:04, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  While I understand your discomfort with the imagery, I do believe it is appropriate to regard the above as a mob. And this bothers me because I have seen what wikimobs are capable of. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it makes sense that I am more alarmed by this than you are. You are one of our most popular admins, and it is unlikely that the community will ever turn on you like this. I, on the other hand, am a gnome who mostly keeps to myself. The type of editing I do does not necessitate cultivating Wiki-friendships, and I doubt if anyone here would notice or care if I simply disappeared one day. The only people who might feel any emotion in regard to me are the ones who might be hanging onto a grudge over all an old dispute; I've expressed strong opinions on Wiki matters enough times that I've probably acquired a few enemies over the years. While I try to avoid running afoul of WP:CIVIL, if I were ever to slip up and find myself the subject of a thread here, it is quite possible that some old enemies would show up to get their pound of flesh. And who would speak for me? Probably nobody. I think that's a sufficiently good reason for me to speak up when I see a mob forming against someone else. Everyone keeps saying that EEng's friends will turn up to get him out of this block, and maybe that's why so many editors have cast their lot against him. But so far almost nobody is speaking for him, and I think someone with his record of service deserves a little more dignity than this. Pardon my ramblings, but hopefully now you can understand why I take this so seriously. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 09:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I believe it is a useful and appropriate metaphor to a certain extent. The group building up a head of steam partially from it's own posts while talking about the harshest penalties that can possibly be given here. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Youse all have good points. I agree with Lepricavark and North8000 that "mob" in the sense of "mob rule" is an apt metaphor here, especially given all the blatant distorions of EEng's own statements and of the facts of his block log and ANI history (a great deal of which was nonsense at best) to just reach to a heavyhanded result. But Cullen328 is right to criticize use of "lynch mob", and I'll go further: "Lynching" and "lynch mob" usually refer specifically to white-supremacist organized murders of African-Americans (broader use in reference to other mob killings is attested but rare, and rarer in later material), so this is basically a slight variant on the Godwin's law principle of not trivializing atrocities to make a rhetorical point about someone you disagree with on a website.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  11:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• endorse block. oppose indef. an indef is overkill. if he continues this after the block, though, i'd be more inclined to indef. ltbdl (talk) 10:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  forget i said anything. ltbdl (talk) 14:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Block seems reasonable enough, oppose any extension, indef or ban. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block and suggest indef - It was a while ago, but I was absolutely astonished to see what this user gets away with in the order of incivility, belligerent sarcasm, swearwords and insults, incorrigilby. Just look at the habitually highhanded way the user has reacted on h own talk page to this short block! Looks like a person who considers h-self flawless. Many many active users have been blocked indefinitely for being obviously and intentionally offensive, but in my 14 years of contributing I have never seen anybody come close to this one. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Regretfully, I disagree with the last part of your last sentence. There are at least a dozen admins and high level editors - maybe several dozen - that engage in similar behavior with little to no consequences because of status. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support extending block to indefinite Per Ivanvector and SergeWoodzing. I have been following ANI for a very, very long time and again and again I have found it disappointing how EEng got away with atrocious behaviour. Has an other editor ever received that many blocks without getting indeffed? As IvanVector wrote: EEng is Wikipedia's self-appointed court jester; nobody asked him to be, nobody thinks a court jester is a good idea on a project that values collaboration and civility, and various editors keep asking him to stop, but he won't. He never sees any kind of real consequence other than the occasional definite block that he's more than happy to sit out since it means he never has to modify his behaviour, and there's a small group of editors that cheer him on and always an admin who will invent a rationale to unblock, so why would he ever improve? Nothing will change unless and until EEng sees real consequences, […]. Robby.is.on (talk) 11:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  "Has an other editor ever received that many blocks without getting indeffed?" According to my back of a fag-packet calculations, Eric Corbett / Malleus Fatuorum was blocked over 50 times before the final, Arbcom-enforced one. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that. I was sure that question had a positive answer but couldn't be bothered to do the research. I now see that there's another case of a user having been blocked more times being discussed at WP:AN. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Having a court jester is a good thing, using it as an excuse to insult other editors is doing an awful job at it. Methinks the community should appoint a new jester. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 11:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block (thanks for that Isabelle) and support extending to indefinite. Every time a user leaves the project because they're done with all the aggression and disrespect, done with the everyday and almost casual rudeness, done with caring for the project and honestly not knowing anymore why they ever bothered in the first place, WP is potentially losing an expert scholar, a great writer, a diligent editor, an untiring admin. I sincerely believe that if civility would ever be taken seriously, WP would soon become twice the resource it is, both in terms of quality and scope.
  The tragedy of WP is that it is stuck in the late 90s or early 00s internet culture which it sprang from, where a certain amount of flaming and hostility was just part of the deal for everyone. The concept that a text-only medium requires constant self-moderation, that it demands a conscious attempt to 'be nice' (even if one doesn't feel that way), was something foreign and new, and ultimately not appealing to the free-wheeling community that created the internet. Times have changed, and WP has changed too, but not enough. It has not changed in one of the most crucial ways it should have: we're still chasing away thousands of users every year simply by being invariably and unnecessarily rude to them. It almost seems as if only people with an amazing and at times inexplicable ability to put up with all the rudeness are actually able to stay on here.
  I don't know if this is what Star Mississippi meant, but it seems right that EEng's usual attitude is "I can say what I want, no one will block me", but that the conduct shown here (especially in their reaction to the block) has gone even beyond that. From these two geniuses showed up to high-handedly smirk to each other and So while some might think me uncivil, at least I'm not uncivil and clueless -- a deadly combination[100] over being lectured by a couple of script kiddies and a block only requires that one trigger-happy admin get high and mighty over something that others aren't exercised about[101] to It's an interesting exercise to count up how many of the admins who've blocked me are no longer admins[102], EEng has taken to being utterly unapologetic in their lack of civility. They seem to believe they have a right to be uncivil, and that most anyone who has ever had tried to curb that right (and a great many have tried), must have themselves been in the wrong, somehow. Why anyone should expect such a deep-seated attitude to just disappear after 72 hours is beyond me.
  Sure, nothing about that long-term attitude is too different from –say– a few weeks ago, and there was no 'mob' at ANI then, so this must all be some blown-up drama over a few unfortunate comments, right? That's absolutely the feeling I get when seeing an ANI header called 'Incivility by EEng'. My gut reaction is 'not again', 'this will never work'. And that indeed was the tendency of many early comments, before it completely turned towards the natural counterpart 'but if it will never work, then that in itself is a problem'. At this point we seem to have reached the final act, where the 'mob' has gone home, where good sense prevails again, and where everyone decides they have something better to do. We know we will end up here again, but that's okay, probably will just be the occasion for another batch of new-ish editors to learn that we don't indef block for this.
  I get all of that, and I agree, except for that one part 'we don't indef block for this'. I think we should, and if we would, this thread and its very type would not exist. Casual and habitual rudeness and aggression should always be met with an indef WP:CIV block. And that's undeniably what we've got here. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 12:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support community ban; I endorsed the block in an earlier comment, and since EEng has plainly stated he intends to wait it out and not learn anything, it should be made indefinite. By his own comments in response to the block it's clear that EEng views chronic and occasionally severe incivility as necessary to edit Wikipedia and views the block as an administrator overstepping their authority, when in fact neither is true: the block is a consequence of his own actions and nothing more. It should be made indefinite until he acknowledges that, and the community should accept EEng's next appeal rather than the decision being up to a single admin driving by. Wikipedia's founding principle is "anyone can edit", not "anyone can edit who can put up with occasional abuse from editors who deem themselves superior". Whatever it is that EEng does when he's not making stupid jokes and telling people off, if it's so important somebody else will do it without their behaviour having to be scrutinized and defended all the time. Of the billion-plus edits to Wikipedia, a tiny, tiny fraction necessitate reports to this noticeboard; it is not anybody's "job" to get themselves blocked ever, let alone as many times as EEng has. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose ban. What’s wrong with the block? According to Wikipedia:Civility#Blocking for incivility, Blocking for incivility is possible when incivility causes serious disruption. They’ve caused significant disruption to the close review and pain to the discussion on the bot, what more is there to warrant a ban? How about we just follow the “trial run” suggestion above and block them whenever they do an incivility? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The reason for a ban, and the only reason, is because it requires appeal to the community. We already block them when they "do an incivility", the existence of this thread shows that it isn't working. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  This isn't the first time EEng has been blocked for "doing an incivility", it's the 11th, in addition to several blocks for other reasons. I do not believe Cremastra's "trial run" suggestion above will work, given the extensive block log and previous ANI threads on this user. SkyWarrior 15:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  A "trial run" would work with an editor who has been uncivil and wants to reform, but needs help and a gentle hand. EEng doesn't think he's done anything wrong, so a trial run is pointless. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  My impression is that it also requires time before the first appeal. Or have I confused it with arbitration? Aaron Liu (talk) 16:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Not automatically, no. By policy, the difference between blocks and bans is that blocks are enacted by individual administrators and can be reversed by any other administrator (with discussion and agreement) while bans are enacted by community consensus and require community consensus to modify or remove. There is grey area in the interpretation of both policies, and significant overlap, but a ban doesn't come with an automatic moratorium on appeals unless one is explicitly written into it, and you're right that that's a common feature of arbitration bans. Technically any restriction that results from this discussion is a ban by policy, but we probably won't call it that, it'll probably be something like a "community indefinite block" which is not actually defined by policy. Of course this is all academic and we're not supposed to be a bureaucracy; the crux of my argument is that the block should be made so that it does not expire and can't be reversed until EEng convinces the community that they will do better and not need to be blocked again, however we actually describe it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support indef. Surely we're past the "one more chance" stage. Nigej (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments - it’s not lost on me (and probably many other non-admins and regular editors) that:

• if we carried on this way (even just sporadically), we’d be in much bigger trouble.
• if we come here seeking redress and it involves an admin or high level editor, we’re likely going to be made to regret it — better to just hunker down or step away for awhile.
• for someone who’s supposed to be a positive contributor, this thread alone sure is sucking up a lot of time
• 45 years as a high level engineer: so what. Maybe some of the rest of us have also done important things but we don’t play the big shot card
• I don’t understand why this person can’t just be nice like other people — I’ve had a dog vomit on my rug, too. I just cleaned it up. I didn’t take it out on other people.
• Either acknowledge this behavior is within bounds for some people or go long - several months. 72 hours is just a pointless token in this case apparently to be worn as a badge of righteous honor.

This will be an interesting test for the WP:ANI community. In the meantime, I’m headed back to the engine room. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 14:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support extending block to indefinite per Ivanvector and others. I get the whole blocks-are-not-supposed-to-be-punitive line, but in this case a block is necessary to preserve the right of editors to do their work here without being personally attacked. Notwithstanding the good content work and excellent commitment he's given to the project in the past, EEng sadly has IMHO a bit of a longstanding attitude that WP is his personal fiefdom and that his edicts on various topics are to be followed immediately, with the "transgressor" being treated to a barrage of insults if they don't immediately acquiesce. This latest case is just one such - EEng unloading on an editor for doing something they were allowed to do, and on the basis of a "flooded" watchlist which it was well within his own power to configure and sort out by himself. This followed by a hunkering down to wait out the 72 hours and asserting that being blocked is part of doing a good job on the project. I'll obviously caveat this with the usual "indefinite does not mean infinite" line, and as such I'd favour a simple indefinite block rather than a community ban at this point, which would probably be much harder to undo. If, and hopefully when, EEng can satisfy the community that he has a plan for conducting himself in a manner markedly different from that which he has been doing, then an unblock could be granted. A simple 72-hours and a slap on the wrist doesn't seem to cut the mustard here though.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block, and if a longer absence from the site is needed, I'm not against it. As someone whose primary interactions with the user in question are on this venue, where disciplinary action is routinely given, I find making light of cases by adding jokes or unrelated images highly disrespectful to the process, and I'm certain that if any other user tried to do what EEng has been doing for years, they'd be blocked within hours. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 16:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I don’t mind humor - more would be good as long as it’s the right Kind. Humor’s not the important issue here. A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Support indefinite block. EEng still has the option to reapply per the normal process if he can drop his sense of entitlement at the door and just try to get along with the rest of us. We're all making that effort -- he can, too, if he wants. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 23:56, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

arbitrary break (EEng)

• Support indef or siteban. If there has ever been a block that would improve Wikipedia's "collaborative environment", it would be this one. This is a user who not only ignores Wikipedia's expectations regarding conduct but actively flouts them for his own amusement and has done so for many years. It's difficult to tell exactly how many times EEng's behavior has been brought up at ANI, as he's edited the ANI page 6,761 times. As far as I can tell, these are the previous times we've had this discussion at ANI:
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive624#Editor EENG
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive844#Abuse by User:EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive849#User:EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive853#EEng and edit warring
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive869#EEng of questionable civility
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive872#Potentially Polemic Userbox
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive874#I put EEng on notice
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive905#Users EEng and Ricky81682
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive912#Request for full protection of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images page
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive953#Block review 2: EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive959#Personal Attacks by EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive964#EEng's editing at WT:TPG
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive965#Personal attack by EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive969#Violations of WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:TPO
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive989#EEng's continuous uncivil comments
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1005#Incivility from EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1014#Block of User:EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1018#EEng agression
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1019#EEng‎ blocked
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1044#Personal attack by EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1045#Personal attacks by User:EEng at Talk:Kamala Harris
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1051#Threats of violence through the internet pipes by User:EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1060#EEng's talk page size
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1062#EEng ridiculing a BLP who may use neopronouns
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1077#Civility problems with EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1118#User:EEng
  • Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1132#EEng

In most cases, it's agreed that there's a problem but that "sanctions are unnecessary". This is not counting all of the times he's caused problems that were not escalated to ANI. Either we come back here and have the same discussion again, or it stops now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support extending block to indef: We indef newbies for a hundredth the number of offenses EEng has committed. For all the positive edits he's made, anyone care to guess how many other editors have been driven away because of his invective? The time for leniency is long past. Whether it's because he's temperamentally unstable, or he just doesn't give a damn about the rules, we can't tolerate someone who's likely been brought to ANI more times than any other recent editor. Just look at this thread: how much positive work to Wikipedia taken away from each and every one of us does this represent? Either CIVIL and NPA mean something or they do not, but if the purpose of blocks is to prevent further disruption, sheesh. What are we waiting for? Ravenswing 16:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - If the community is incapable of coming to a decision on this matter. The next step will likely be Arbcom. GoodDay (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support block, and support extending to an indefinite block or siteban. On reviewing the diffs and long history of uncivil behavior, my thoughts are per as expressed by Thebiguglyalien and Ravenswing. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 16:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose block, oppose extension, siteban etc and whatever else the civility police decides is right this week. Rationale: there is incivility all over the fucking place, but rare is the block imposed if it's sufficiently passive-aggressive. ——Serial 16:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  What’s passive-aggressive? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Serial, I'm not sure what you consider passive-aggressive, but active aggression like do not even attempt to patronise me[103] or unnecessary sneers like Poor judgment there, City[104] coming from you in this very thread surely aren't any better? Someone should argue the oppose side here, but if it's going to consist of shifting the blame on some unidentified group of passive aggressive others (the famous Wikipedia:Civility Police, not just any other cabal) and vindicating the right to be 'actively' aggressive (let's say it for added emphasis, fucking aggressive), that's painfully unconvincing. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• I’m not going to assume bad faith, but I think the “this is a mob” line being pushed by a few editors here is not correct criticism of what’s happenning here, and it could have the effect of causing other editors to back down from endorsing or advocating for a preventative indef block or siteban. What’s clear is that the user has been blocked or brought to ANI a ridiculous amount of times, and has not ever changed his behaviour, and with this most recent block, has said things like a block only requires that one trigger-happy admin get high and mighty over something that others aren't exercised about and It's an interesting exercise to count up how many of the admins who've blocked me are no longer admins and if I don't get blocked once in a while, I'm not doing my job. I stand by my comments, obviously. It's not being a mob to say that this calls for an indef or siteban, as I already said above. JM (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose extension of block. The size of this thread vs the seriousness of the supposed infraction that started it is ridiculous. Even in this thread we've had far worse incivility with none of the perpetrators even blocked yet. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Which editors do you have in mind? Also, the length of the discussion comes from its contentiousness, not from the seriousness or lack thereof of any infractions. JM (talk) 18:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose suggestion of ban, indef, or anything beyond the block thats already been given. Mostly on is he wrong tho? grounds, but also because this is only getting attention because of the person and not because of the action. If anybody who didnt have so many fans that go looking for problems had said these things they would have been left alone on a user talk page. AFAICT the person supposedly attacked so badly that the attack merits a site ban hasnt even said a word about it. Seriously, youre going to ban somebody who obviously edits in good faith and does a ton of positive work because they got in to a tiff at a user talk page? When that user hasnt even complained? nableezy - 18:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  So you're opposed because 1) you agree with his incivility and thus support the thing he was blocked for, and 2) think that because he's supposedly unpopular, we should ignore support for extensions? JM (talk) 18:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, Id appreciate if the incivility of misrepresenting my position were taken more seriously than intemperate words. One of those is more corrosive to an encyclopedia than the other. nableezy - 18:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  No misrepresentation, let alone incivility, just a request for clarification; and I think to call it incivil misrepresentation may be bad faith, and I don't think that my comment in any way is worse than Eeng's incivility. Of course, you are free to open a new section to find out if people agree, but I don't think its worthwhile. JM (talk) 18:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, definitely misrepresentation. I agreed with EEng's point, not his incivility, and I think the points correctness and the response to the initial request does factor in to how severe I think the incivility should be treated. You did indeed misrepresent my point, but I am not assuming you did so out of bad faith or incompetence or any other reason at all. I am just saying that what I wrote is not what you said I wrote, and I find that to be more insidious to the goal of making an encyclopedia. But, also, you can stop bludgeoning this discussion. nableezy - 19:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think this is bludgeoning, as my comments are not a huge amount of the discussion, nor have I responded to most of the people I disagree with, nor have I made the same argument many times to many people. I also don't think asking if my interpretation is correct is misrepresenting, if anything it's trying to avoid misrepresentation. JM (talk) 19:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The leading question in which you distort my position entirely is yes misrepresentation. nableezy - 20:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Voorts has said words about it. The Cewbot escalation isn’t the only problem. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  That happened here. And was presumably dealt with here then. If not, running it back here seems like trying to get a second shot at a sanction. nableezy - 18:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Voorts appears to still be "frustrated about the outcome" of an RFC where their bad close was reverted, ignoring the messages from the multiple people who reverted it (including EEng) and casting about for anyone else who will reassure them that their bad close was not bad. So I think there might be reason for not taking their opinion here as that of a neutral observer. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I closed a discussion (not an RfC) on an insignificant page over an insignificant issue. Editors involved came to my talk page asking me to overturn my close. I declined and asked them to take it to AN for a close review.

  Two weeks later another editor (who was also involved in the discussion and had !voted) decided to take things into their own hands and unilaterally overturn my close. I restored the close and asked them to follow process. EEng (who had participated in past discussions on the issue) then unilaterally overturned my close, insulting my intelligence and competence as he did so. I asked EEng to be polite, and he continued to insult me. I then asked for a neutral close review at Wikipedia talk:Closure requests, where EEng then followed me and continued to cast aspersions and insult me. As I explained in that thread, I've been open to and asked for a proper close review from the beginning, hence my "frustration". voorts (talk/contributions) 20:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  another editor (who was also involved in the discussion and had !voted) False. I did not !vote in that discussion, nor did anyone else, because it wasn't a proposal or a poll or an RFC or the kind of discussion where people !vote, and thus it wasn't the kind of discussion that needed to be closed, which is why your close was wrong and was undone. You were wrong, you were reverted, get over it, or at least stop misrepresenting what happened. Levivich (talk) 20:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, I forgot to mention that a close was requested by one of the participants in the discussion and that I didn't just waltz in and close a random discussion. Other than use of "!vote", what exactly did I get wrong in my description above that is relevant to this AN/I thread about EEng's behavior? voorts (talk/contributions) 21:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Repeated sealioning makes me want to curse, but I won't, because then a bunch of people will call for me to be site banned. Levivich (talk) 22:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm defending myself against false accusations. I don't see what's wrong with that. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk|sandbox) 22:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think you replied to Levivich in the wrong thread. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'll take that response as either implying that I'm misrepresenting things ("They will often misrepresent others or other discussions in an attempt to incriminate or belittle others' opinions.") or that my request that you follow the only procedure with some form of community consensus that we have for overturning a close or for a peer review of my close were somehow "frivolous and time-wasting". As I said above, I've asked people to take this to AN for a close review from the outset, you overturned my close and then we tried discussing it, and EEng was disparaging and insulting at AN/I and CR. I'm not sure what I'm misrepresenting here. If, as you've suggested many times, my close was bad (and looking at the state of the discussion now, it still seems to be "ILIKEIT" vs. "IDONTLIKEIT"), AN would have promptly overturned it and we could've avoided a whole lot of needless drama. My asking for a neutral, constructive peer review (which, as you'll see at the CR thread, I have yet to receive) is so that I can learn how to be a better discussion closer, not so that I can point to a positive peer review of my close and say "I told you so." voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Despite repeated sealioning, I am not going to take the bait and lose my shit, because then people will judge me for it as if I'm the problem. Instead, I'll just assume you were somehow genuinely confused and did not realize that the part that you misrepresented is the part that I quoted and then rebutted with a link. I hope that clears things up for you. Levivich (talk) 23:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Could you guys take this elsewhere? Maybe take it to that close review? Aaron Liu (talk) 00:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  We're done. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support 72 hour block; Strongly oppose any extension of the block, or a ban. Speaking as someone who has been insulted by EEng (a long time ago – he has almost certainly forgotten about it) I think the suggestions for an indeff or a community ban are massively out of proportion. So he is sometimes rude, and the quality of his ‘humour’ may best be described as ….variable….This does not constitute major disruption to the project.
  Procedural objection: Since EEng is currently blocked, he cannot answer any of the arguments which are being made against him. @Isabelle Belato: Surely the block should be amended to allow him to defend himself here? Sweet6970 (talk) 18:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Sweet6970: EEng has access to their talk page, where they have been posting replies to some of the comments left here. I've copied a couple of them over to this thread when asked to, which is standard procedure. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 19:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for your reply. I don’t think that is an effective solution to the problem created by the block. My personal view on this is that the current situation is so unfair that any decision reached on the basis of the current procedure should automatically be overturned. Sweet6970 (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  While I don't think it warrants overturning any decision that could be made, I agree to amend the block to allow EEng to talk here for the purposes of this discussion, and hopefully have it as a precedent for people not able to participate in a discussion about their block. (This doesn't change my support of an indefinite block, by the way) ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  That's not actually possible - blocked editors can edit only their own talk page unless that is also turned off. There is no way to enable them to edit other pages other than lifting the block entirely. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  But couldn't EEng be unblocked solely in order to post on this page (and their user page and talk page, I guess)? I believe I've seen this happen here before, and we are among other things talking about a site ban. I tend to agree with Sweet6970, even if I don't see it quite in those legal/procedural terms. I am certain EEng would not post anywhere else but here for the duration of the block or until this has been resolved. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Agree with Sluzzelin. Sweet6970 (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef block or site ban I don't have any problem with the original block, but there is absolutely nothing here warranting such a punitive action. Black Kite (talk) 19:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Black Kite: just in case you missed it (it's a large thread after all), much of the current concern seems to be spurred by the way EEng reacted to the initial block on their talk, e.g. [105][106][107], which I would describe as 'doubling down' and 'deflecting'. Of course, reasonable minds may differ. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse current block, oppose indef or site ban. Instead I propose EEng be punished by having to implement automatic archiving of their talkpage. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse current block, Oppose indef, per Black Kite, David Eppstein, Boing, and others. The current block is appropriate, but additional sanctions at this point would be punitive. I do, however, encourage EEng to absorb the wise comments from Tryptofish above. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 19:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks for that, JoJo. At this point, it really looks to me like this ANI discussion is turning into a stew of every angry and ill-conceived thought that anyone can think of. I'm frankly worried that some admin will get the very bad idea of acting on the many calls for an indef, and enact it without doing the necessary analysis first. For starters, it's worth looking at EEng's talk page, where he has made some comments that have not been copied here, that are worth considering for context. Others have said here at ANI that EEng's personality is such that, if indeffed, he will refuse to appeal, and I believe that this is true, so we would simply lose him as an editor. I also see a number of editors saying, reasonably, that we should steer clear of language about mobs and pitchforks and the like. I agree. But I will say that a lot of editors need to calm down about this. Whenever there's a dispute, one like this or one of any other nature, the best thing to do is to see if there's a way to WP:DEESCALATE the conflict. Wouldn't it be better, instead of all the arguing here, for editors to get back to productive content editing? This discussion has stopped being one where a reasoned decision about whether or not to extend the block can be made in a thoughtful way. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC) I struck one sentence, because EEng just said otherwise on his talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    Observation: I think I see more support now for a long or indefinite block than your position, User:Tryptofish. Maybe that'll change if the discussion stays open. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    WP:VOTE, which is why I urge any admin who is thinking of enacting an indef on the basis of counting votes, to think twice. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    Tryptofish, I'm familiar with WP:VOTE. That, of course, works both ways. I was responding to your comment:

    • "Wouldn't it be better, instead of all the arguing here, for editors to get back to productive content editing? This discussion has stopped being one where a reasoned decision about whether or not to extend the block can be made in a thoughtful way."

    -A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    Thanks for clarifying. I had misunderstood your comment to mean that because of the numerical count, an indef ought to follow. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse current block, oppose indef EEng does have a point that the length of their block log is misleading, and I am uneasy about handing out an indef for incivility on the back of this incident. Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Here's the reply from EEng on the long evidence list above:

Look, I'm going to work, but something needs to be said about the distorted "evidence" now being adduced at ANI. First we've got someone saying, 'This isn't the first time EEng has been blocked for "doing an incivility", it's the 11th'. No, it's not the 11th, but anyway the problem with my block log is you have to actually look at what happened. Just two off the top of my head:

• [108] Admin warned that repeating such a block in future might lead to desysopping
• [109] Admin is "reminded of the dangers and standards of adminship as well as the nature of blocks"

Not just many but most of my blocks have ended like that.

Then we've got someone posting an impressive list of ANI section headers that happen to have my name in them, characterized as 'In most cases, it's agreed that there's a problem but that "sanctions are unnecessary".' Let's take a few randomly:

• [110] Someone's joke report
• [111] User accusing me of "blasphemy" because I said "Jesus Christ!" in a post
• [112] Report by editor trolling with stuff like "I'm a 70 year old professor in the MIT system, with a JD in IP and a PhD in molecular biology and supercomputing. ... I've got dozens of young stallions working for me here that are avid Wiki types, contributors and fans.." (link just given) and "I spend summers on the West Coast in CA and AZ with fellow old researchers and younger students, and can often be found hanging around the supercomputing lab at UCSD." [113]
• [114] Editor Edoktor complaining that by addressing him playfully as "Herr Doktor", I was comparing him to Nazis.
• [115] Editor complaining about my edit summary reverting a MOS change: "Whoa there, pilgrim! This is a longstanding provision that is consistent with many (I'm not saying all) major style guides."
• [116] Complainant indeffed

That's not 'In most cases, it's agreed that there's a problem but that "sanctions are unnecessary". That's not to say that I'm not out of line more than occasionally, and I do apologize for that, but just listing out every ANI thread with my name in it isn't any way to gauge that.

It's also been said that I've made 6,761 edits to ANI. Well yeah, if you count the many thousands of edits (literally) that were the archiving of old threads.

This is really becoming a kangaroo court, with wild misstatements being piled in left and right which I'm not able to counter in a timely manner. And as the wise man said (paraphrasing and extending here) [117] the incivility of misrepresenting facts, events, and others' positions should be taken as or more seriously than the incivility of intemperate words.
— User:EEng 19:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Aaron Liu (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok, they've just written another letter:

One more thing: I really bristle at inclusion of something about AGF in the proposed restriction. You will never see me assuming that anyone here isn't acting in good faith, except the occasional obvious sockpuppet or PROMO account. It's one thing for the record to reflect that I can be prickly -- I'll own that -- but it's really not right to imply I haven't always applied AGF. Just something that seems to matter to me for some reason.

OK, and now something else. Until now IRL stuff prevented me from having quiet time to think about this, but on the train just now I had that time, and wrote the following:

I do recognize that sometimes I'm out of line in my dealings with other editors, and I regret that (even if sometimes I say I don't -- natural human instinct). We can argue about how much that matters, and the knock-on effects, and the positives and negatives and the net, but I hate to see everyone spending so much time in a tussle over this. So I think at this point it's best I get the indefinite block. I do enjoy editing – it's relaxing and satisfying, and in some cases I believe it even does some good in the world – but I also have other things to do (believe it or not) so I'll survive.

Don't misinterpret this as "I QUIT!", because it's not that. In the fullness of time (weeks? months?) I'll make a unblock request, which I hope will be to everyone's satisfaction. And I know myself. I will miss editing during that time – there will be that periodic pang – and perhaps the memory of that pang will remind me, when I return to editing, to think twice more often before hitting [Publish changes].

I know it's not usually the procedure for the convict to propose his own punishment, but I think an indef will be more effective than the civility restriction proposed. (Remember, we're talking about me, and I do know me, believe it or not.) A civility restriction put a target on the editor's back, and leads to baiting. I think a (fairly long) break from editing, and coming back with a fresh if chastened perspective, would have better effects in the end.

In the meantime, I will miss you all. Even you, [redacted], and you, [redacted], and yes, EVEN YOU, [redacted].

Your pal in fun editing,

EEng

P.S. Actually, if you'll unblock me for a few hours first I'll archive my talk page. Or if that's too complicated I'll promise to do it straight away when I get back.

Aaron Liu (talk) 22:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support indef per EEng (obviously, I am invovled here). I was going to support a civility ban and was about to post the following, which I'll reproduce here: Ghosts of Europa has said some of what I intended to say. Nobody should have to be afraid of abuse, insults, assumptions of bad faith, or incivility, and then be told that complaining about it will likely boomerang back to you. If these are truly random outbursts from EEng, as some have asserted in this thread, and if, on balance, he is a net good to the project, catching a block once in a while for incivility will give him time to cool down, rethinkthings, and protect other editors who have to put up with his behavior. I think a siteban/indef here is based on pretty weak evidence; I agree with EEng that some of his past blocks were not justifiable and that some of the ANI threads opened above hardly show misbehavior on his part. However, I note that many of the editors calling for those outcomes are newer editors, whereas older editors have defended EEng or even tried to explain away his misconduct as just being a part of his personality. As Apaugasma has argued, this probably represents a cultural shift between generations of internet users. However, I also believe that if EEng had behaved this way in any other volunteer organization (or in his workplace), he would have been booted long ago. Wikipedia is a volunteer project and we should treat each other with collegiality and respect. Civility is not just a policy: it's a core pillar of the Wikipedia community. We should act like it. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - I have to say I'm greatly encouraged by the most recent post by EEng, following the "quiet time on the train"... Per EEng's own comments there, and my earlier comment above, I'm not at this point changing my opinion that it's best for us to have an "indefinite but not infinite" block at this moment in time, but it sounds like when EEng is ready to come back in however many weeks or months, they will be able to put in an unblock request with the necessary level of introspection and promising to do better, in which case I should hopefully be able to support unblocking unreservedly and we can all put the fun back into fun editing. Cheers,  — Amakuru (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I was just coming here to comment on that same post, and I'm glad that you said that, thanks. And I want to say, very seriously, to all the editors (not you) who have posted hyperbolic statements about EEng having made it clear that he doesn't care what the community thinks, and so forth, that you have been piling on without regard for reality. Anyone who has been around the project for long has a pretty clear picture of what the typical indeffed editor sounds like. And the most central component of that is self-awareness, self-reflection, which is usually sorely lacking in the indeffed. But I think that anyone with a pulse can see, in EEng's comments copied to here, that he is genuinely self-reflecting. I hope to see similar self-awareness in those who criticize him. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support indef - no real argument has been adequately made against the "if this was a newbie" point because it's true; no leeway would have been granted to a newcomer if they had done the same as EEng had; they'd be thrown under the figurative prison. I continue to maintain that this two-tiered system of justice on Wikipedia is faulty in that it directly punishes newbies who know no better and often times come from an internet background where, since people aren't doing what we at the Wikimedia Project are doing, have less need to be civil and as such tend to be a little more rowdy (not defending them, but that is a point that needs to be made). If any group of people deserves punishment for this type of stuff, its elite editors who should know better.
  I'm going to say it; the reason why we give this much leeway to experienced editors in the form of shorter block times, higher standards for blocking, unblocking after an apology, etc. is because its a way of removing responsibility on other elite editors, not only in that they can imitate the behavior of bad elite editors, but also in that whenever any of their wiki-friends are violating the rules, they won't be forced to hold them responsible (y'know, like actual friend should have the balls to do) and just ignore it. It's a primal instinct that, like many traits humans gained in the savannah, runs into serious issues once you start scaling away from intimate familial groups to systems of tens of thousands of people. — Knightoftheswords 23:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I don't understand why so many people trumpet the 'if this was a newbie' argument as if there is no conceivable counterargument. Why doesn't it make sense that a newbie would be shown less patience than an editor with a documented history of positive contributions over many years? One person has earned a measure of goodwill and the other has not. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:24, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) You are missing a lot of nuance there. Experienced editors who, despite the things they do wrong, also do a lot to improve content and to help other editors, have something to offer on the plus side of the ledger that new editors do not. That doesn't mean that they are being held to a different standard. And the way that you imply that, because of what you see as a problem in general, we should sanction a specific person, sounds like collective punishment. If you think that EEng's wiki-friends don't tell him that he needs to do things better, that we just agree with everything he does to protect ourselves, then you are unaware of what I've been telling him for years. But I agree with you that we should be careful not to judge new editors too quickly. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Lepricavark and Tryptofish:

  Why doesn't it make sense that a newbie would be shown less patience than an editor with a documented history of positive contributions over many years?

  Because the latter editor, via virtue of having more experience, should have a better grasp on the rules of Wikipedia than a newcomer who doesn't even know of the project space. If a scientist spouts verifiable nonsense, you don't defend him because "well, he's contributed so much to his field;" you rightfully criticize him to a greater degree than most average joes who at the very least are comparatively scientifically illiterate. People state the EEng is a magnificent contributor, but I'm sure that whatever work he does will be fulfilled by another editor, unless maybe in a very obscure area. Coverage of obscure topics is an issue on Wikipedia is a real issue, one that can be solved by welcoming more editors, and EEng's repeated wiki-agism (that he is far from the only one on this site projecting) is one of the biggest turn-offs to would-be Wikipedians, and as such I firmly maintain that when it comes to perennially disruptive editors like him, more damage is done in regards to the lost potential editors, users who become frightened of speaking up on this site after being relentlessly bullied, and those who just leave the project out of exhaustion when we keep them.

  Also, one more thing, and this doesn't apply to EEng, but a lot of this rhetoric about "they've been such a productive editor" will be used to defend users who haven't seriously edited in years, or essentially busted their asses off for adminship and have subsequently coasted off that role since while not even really exercising the rights and duties that come with admin status. — Knightoftheswords 00:01, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think I see a question to me in there. But I would caution against using one editor to make a point about other editors. And I think the caricature of experienced editors is just a caricature. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  People state the EEng is a magnificent contributor, but I'm sure that whatever work he does will be fulfilled by another editor. That's not a particularly safe assumption. As for the assertion repeated numerous times in this thread about EEng causing the loss of potential editors, I've yet to actually see any evidence of him driving specific editors away. That kind of claim is difficult to disprove (and thus very convenient for rhetorical purposes), but it should not be made unless you intend to prove it. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed. I agree with pretty much everything you've said. The longer an editor has been here and the more edits they have, the better they should know the rules. Even if the "net positive" is considered, that should balance it out, considering civility is one of only five pillars of Wikipedia. I also dislike the "net positive" argument so many people have made here, because the good does not wash out the bad. It's hard to say just how many new and experienced editors are discouraged from improving the encylcopedia because of incivility from established editors, and it's even worse when no one does anything about it, thereby showing such discouraging actions are condoned by the editing community. JM (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef. I was going to stay out of this, but some of the ridiculous calls for indef above have inspired me to shoot my mouth off. Worse stuff than EEng's "incivility" has been said to me, both by newbies and by experienced editors, in my years here, and I've been able to take it without asking for anyone to be blocked (for that reason). Perhaps that's because I became inured to such on Usenet, or maybe I'm just thick-skinned. I have a few ideas about the psychology of the rabid "burn the witch" crowd here, but I'd better keep them to myself lest I too arouse their ire. (Sentence struck after Cullen's comment below.) Deor (talk) 01:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Deor, I too oppose an indef in this case but rhetoric like rabid "burn the witch" crowd when applied to your colleagues is ill-advised and deeply unhelpful. Please reconsider. Cullen328 (talk) 02:39, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef. This has become a sprawling discussion, with at least 2 offshoots, so I'm not even sure I'm putting this in the right place. And I see that EEng himself is now advocating indef. I do take civility seriously, as not only a stated requirement for editing here but a necessary lubricant in a very large and very diverse group of participants. But different editors will naturally have different notions about what incivility looks like. I share the perception that some have expressed here that EEng's comments were not egregiously uncivil. For one thing, I don't see him assuming bad faith: it is important to recognize that things intended in good faith can nonetheless be wrong (such as a bad close followed by a refusal to self-revert) or have regrettable consequences (such as massive automated editing of article talk pages). Pointing out these problems is not inherently uncivil. For another, in my personal gut-level perception of incivility, snideness and arguments about being old-fashioned ("90s internet culture" or something like that) are worse than direct statements. (And I'm sorry, but using this discussion to excoriate the blocked editor for (a) sometimes adding humorous asides at AN/I and (b) having a long talk page feels to me like kicking the man when he's down. Civility should arise from respect, not be a pro forma exercise. So I find those parts of the discussion disappointing, thereby illustrating the differences within our community.) On balance, therefore, I'm going to stick to my guns: let the block run, the length is reasonable, and let EEng archive his talk page after that in whatever way he then wishes, and/or take his wikibreak if he still wants one. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Yngvadottir: as I've seen elsewhere in this thread that my observations about Wikipedia's roots in 90s internet culture have not always been received as I intended them, let me take this opportunity to clarify. I was strictly talking about Wikipedia, not about EEng or any other user (FWIW, I was an internet user in the 90s myself). I was part of an argument why I think civility in general should be more strictly enforced in a 2020s context where people's online lives are often as or more important than their offline lives, and where we are working together online to maintain one of the world's most used sources of information. It was a build-up on general principles which I thought might explain my position on this specific case, i.e. that we need to make it clear that we expect more from EEng, not because of the egregiousness of his own violations, but because we need to start expecting more from each other here in general.

  Also please note that this is about the habitually and self-assuredly uncivil way in which EEng points out problems, not about pointing out problems with other editors per se as being inherently uncivil, nor about those problems not being important or even worse than EEng's incivility. We need to expect more from each other, but that won't work if we can't talk about one editor's problems without invoking problems with other editors as somehow in defense of the first editor. If everyone starts pointing fingers at each other, it's just going to be one big circle without beginning or end. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Endorse block, oppose indef EEng was out of line, and the block was warranted though it would have been preferable to discuss it here for more than an hour and a half first. He knows he was out of line, has had some introspection, and apologized and expressed regret for his uncivil tone. That covers pretty much all the bases we ask for in a good unblock request, and while I think the enforced 72-hour wikibreak is good for him an indef would be wildly disproportionate. Enforcing civility is hard and enwiki has never really found a way that works, but an indef or community ban like some have proposed is not at all what we typically do for this level of incivility. We should put the pitchforks away, let the block expire, and move on. Instead I'll leave off with some words of wisdom: EVERYONEIS SO UNHAPPYAN/IIS REALLY CRAPPYBurma-shave The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 04:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose indefinite block. No opinion on original block but this discussion appears to be getting ridiculously out of proportion. Espresso Addict (talk) 09:52, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• EEng often annoys me with his flippancy and arrogance, but to say this warrants more than a 72 hour block is bizarre. Sense of proportion, please, everyone.—S Marshall T/C 09:55, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Endorse block because EEng was clearly out of line. Oppose indef because unlike many members of our substantial cadre of long-term productive editors who cannot remain collegial, EEng is genuinely capable of recognizing that he has been out of line (as he has now done), and also, he does not usually bear a grudge; meaning this isn't going to turn into a years-long blood feud. Vanamonde93 (talk) 10:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose pursuing this any further. It is very difficult to tell someone that they are behaving in a stupid way without telling them they are stupid, and that is the line that EEng crosses a bit too often. But without robust opposition, really stupid things happen. Do we want an environment where irresponsible, incompetent acts go unchallenged because the challengers have all been blocked, bogged off to do something more rewarding instead, or are too scared to say just how silly the situation is? In contrast, it's much easier to wait until someone loses their cool and then drag them off to ANI than to communicate properly, including backing down on mistakes. Collaborative editing in a healthy environment needs not only civility, but also communication, appreciation that different people express themselves differently, and a willingness to listen to another's viewpoint. Those with whom EEng has crossed swords are often as lacking in the last three as EEng is in the first. We can all learn... Elemimele (talk) 11:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose indef I know I'm probably coming here at the end of this but I thought it important to give this discussion time to develop and see EEng's reaction to all of it. I think his first responses were more or less instinct. But his last was very contrite and I think it reflects the real EEng and I believe we should give him that benefit. That's not to take away from those his actions and words affected. Make no doubt, I agree they had grievances and cause to bring this discussion. I am a firm believer in civility in every interaction. There is never a good enough excuse for incivility and I chastise myself when I haven't met that standard. There is no one that can possibly be harder on me than me. Most might not even think that some of what I consider incivility on my part and in my own interactions is actually that but I have a higher view of WP:CIVIL and I take it very serious. From what I read EEng recognizes and acknowledges his incivility and genuinely does not want to take up more of the projects time on it. I think, after his 72 hour block which I agree with, he will give himself time to evaluate and make adjustments to the way he deals with others. I think he will take the words of others he respects to heart and I think this process, however laborious, has been good for EEng and really all of us to pause and evaluate our own actions. I believe we should leave it there and move forward. --ARoseWolf 12:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose indef. Earlier, I would have supported an indef; I got the sense that EEng (and others) felt the rules didn’t apply to him, so this would keep happening. I no longer get that impression. I appreciate EEng’s recent messages and willingness to archive his talk page, and I acknowledge that his block/ANI record looks worse than it actually is. As others have said, I think the volume and energy of this ANI thread is enough of a signal that the rules do apply! Ghosts of Europa (talk) 12:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose indef block per the evidence given by EEng. Essentially, this block was okay and has since had community consensus behind it. A lot of other blocks of EEng didn't - including one I recall describing as a "piss poor block". So looking at EEng's block log is misleading. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I've said this before, but we need to be able to edit block logs to erase various kinds of sysop asshattery.—S Marshall T/C 13:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think you can - see this test log where I've hidden the most recent entry. However, getting a consensus to do this for a real sysop action is mighty difficult to impossible, unless perhaps it's a block performed by a compromised account. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, people should be able to review them and make their own opinions on them, and decide whether it was "sysop asshattery" or not. Being able to hide blocks without consensus would be much more problematic. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 14:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Personally I think we should not find new ways of hiding sysop asshattery. If a block was inappropriate it is normally noted in the log entry for the unblock; users who look only at the length of a block log and not at the actual entries are the problem we can't solve. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:33, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, some of us edit under our real names. WP:BLPDEL is policy and block logs aren't an exception.—S Marshall T/C 14:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I genuinely do not understand why choosing to edit under your real name would be an exemption to accountability, or how WP:BLPDEL (a policy about biographical material, not about on-wiki actions) is relevant here. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 15:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  A block log is information about a (presumably) living person, and as we are seeing in this thread, errors in that information and in the interpretation of that information can and do lead to measurable harm to the subject. However I agree that editing under one's real name is irrelevant: every account has a real person behind it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Tbh I hadn't really considered that, but you're right. I suppose if there was a way to expunge a block entry from a user's block log but keep it as a redacted entry in the sysop's log of actions, then it would address the problem of inappropriate entries but not at the expense of admin accountability. I have no idea about what would be required technically. I can't see Ritchie333's test redaction, I just get a database error on the link and also when I try to view any log for User:ThisIsaTest, but I can see it in Ritchie's log ([118]). Maybe we already can do this and all that's missing is consensus. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I also wasn't aware that was possible for Block logs, until now. I did my own testing[119], and if we just revdel the edit summary but not the performer or target then we can have the log entry stay, redact the block reason, and admins can still see the redaction with an opportunity to add an explanatory note in the RevDel log. Per WP:REVDEL, it actually is mentioned in policy how we should use it. Log redaction (outside of the limited scope of RD#2 for the creation, move, and delete logs) is intended solely for grossly improper content, and is not permitted for ordinary matters; the community needs to be able to review users' block logs and other logs whether or not proper. Use of the RevisionDelete tool to redact block logs (whether the block log entry is justified or not) or to hide unfavorable actions, posts or criticisms, in a manner not covered by these criteria or without the required consensus or ArbCom agreement, will usually be treated as abuse of the tool. It might be useful to add something to this page encouraging use of it as I just described to strike a balance between expunging and accountability, when community consensus exists. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think expanding the scope of log revdels to get rid of actions we don't "like" is not advisable. It runs counter to our general principle of transparency, it can create issues and confusion down the line (consensus can change, and a block that seems redaction-worthy today might not seem redaction-worthy in a decade), and it creates unnecessary procedural overhead (i.e. having to hold mini-RFCs whenever someone thinks a block was bad and needs to be sent down the memory hole).

  That said, I do understand the desire of blockees to not have their logs "stained" by bad actions, but we already have procedures to mitigate that. For blocks that are lifted because they lack merit, admins can and should write descriptive and clear unblock summaries, ideally with links to relevant discussions. For blocks that have already expired and were found to be inappropriate after the fact, WP:AMENDLOG outlines that Very short blocks may be used to record, for example, an apology or acknowledgement of mistake in the block log in the event of a wrongful or accidental block, if the original block has expired. Granted, we don't exercise that option often (and perhaps we should do so more frequently), but it is there, and it seems preferable to redacting logs outright. That option should, in my opinion, be reserved for scenarios where the log entry itself contains actually harmful material that can't be dealt with through amendment, e.g. grossly inappropriate attack usernames on the part of the blockee. --Blablubbs (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fully agree with this. I'll add that, if an admin blocks a user, and another admin deletes the block log, how can we be sure the first admin was the one who did the "bad action"? ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Because deleting stuff from a block log would only be done after a community block review or an Arbcom decision.—S Marshall T/C 17:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'll also note that while I really am sympathetic to the desire to correct bad blocks, I'm not really on board with the BLPDEL equivalence. Would we consider the phrase "$Subject once edit-warred on Wikipedia" added to a mainspace BLP worthy of revdel? I'm fairly sure most people's answer would be "no". If we do hold that any inaccurate claim of Wikipedia misconduct is grounds for revdel, then we'd have to constantly delete half of ANI's history: I don't see a meaningful substantive difference between an admin erroneously asserting some sort of policy violation in a block summary, and anyone asserting the same on a talk page or noticeboard. --Blablubbs (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  The difference is that if you complain about EEng on AN/I, he can reply. He can't reply on his block log.—S Marshall T/C 17:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I can easily think of scenarios where they wouldn't be able to respond because they don't actually see the edit in question, even if they have the technical ability to do so. But that's neither here nor there. As noted above, unblock summaries and WP:AMENDLOG already allow for that sort of corrective response, though not by EEng himself. I suppose I just fail to see how "block review ends in redacting log wholesale" is preferable to "community block review ends in one second block (or an unblock) clearly labeling the block as bad while leaving the actual record intact", but I can see significant downsides to log redaction in cases like these.

  In any case, I think it might make sense to move this discussion to WT:REVDEL instead, so as to not clog up this already-lengthy thread. --Blablubbs (talk) 17:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Agree with moving it.—S Marshall T/C 17:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  FYI (and for the benefit of people reading the thread), I’ve filed phab:T354663 regarding the error when attempting to view the logs. All the best, ‍—‍a smart kitten_[meow] 16:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  So, just to make sure I have this straight: on a technical level we can fix people's block logs without compromising sysop accountability, but on a policy level we're constrained by a conflict between WP:BLPDEL and WP:REVDEL?—S Marshall T/C 16:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose indef/ban. EEng's a long-term highly constructive editor. Everyone's temper gets lost once in a while. I tend to agree with EEng's general take on the bot matter; running a bot is a privilege and a responsibility, not a right, and no one has a right to do it nor a right to keep doing it in a way that has negative consequences that can be mitigated by changing the bot code or behavior. Using the word "fucking" isn't automatically a civility problem, and even using it in a way that does seem to be a civility problem doesn't make it a personal attack. Some of the "experience-ist" comments were not well-phrased, but the underlying points in them are largely valid. It is not a constructive approach to take a lecturing attitude toward more experienced editors as if they're cluebags; it really is not constructive to post blather and argumentation that wastes other editors' time; and so on. I don't mean this in a "let him be as incivil as he wants" way. He's already gotten a block for it, and a lot of pillorying, and is on notice that tolerance of further behavior like this is not exactly going to be very high. But we need to be keeping editors, not getting rid of them. Elemimele above is exactly right: "It is very difficult to tell someone that they are behaving in a stupid way without telling them they are stupid, and that is the line that EEng crosses a bit too often. But without robust opposition, really stupid things happen." This is something I deal with on a regular basis, and the fact of the matter is that no one likes being told they're doing a wrong thing, but they need to be told anyway, if they are. Not everyone (including me) have fantastic skills in that kind of communication. But that does not make them a net liability to the project.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - My yard stick on these matters goes as such. They (any editor) can insult or personally attack me all they like. As long as they aren't edit warring or causing vandalism? I'm likely not going to seek a block or ban. GoodDay (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  You must be aware that other editors may feel differently about being insulted and attacked, and that the fourth of the five pillars is civility. JM (talk) 00:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  I already stated why I'm opposing. PS - I already mentioned earlier, that if the community can't decide on whether an editor should be site-banned or not? The next step will likely be Arbcom. GoodDay (talk) 05:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• First block was fine, Oppose indef. Comments like "Excuse me, you two fucking geniuses..." are clearly over the line, but not so bad as to warrant an indef. As to EEng catching an indef for a "pattern" of incivility, particularly re: the long list of ANI cases someone pasted above... I was under the impression those cases were all closed, with their discussion points discussed, and the warnings and sanctions (or lack thereof) enforced. Why bring them up en masse, unless in every single one there was some reminder that "if this behavior continues..."? It looks like the most recent one that resulted in ANY action toward EEng was in 2021, where they were blocked for a week. If an editor was blocked for a week in 2021, and has been editing prolifically without catching sanctions for 3 years... then it seems the block has served its purpose, yeah? Why bring it up as a reason to impose a harsher sanction than the current behavior warrants? PhotogenicScientist (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Indef Carrite (talk) 05:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Good Block, Oppose Indef, Oppose Ban - The subject is not a net negative. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• I support Isabelle Belato's 72-hour block, oppose extension to indef per Johnuniq. Bishonen | tålk 13:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC).

Incivility by City of Silver

As part of the above thread, City of Silver posted a comment that was accompanied by this edit summary: Is this the new thing? Being gentle on the noticeboard and saving the actual nastiness for the edit summary? Fine, I'll do that, and I'll even ping you because I'm not a coward like you. Would the person reading this out loud for User:The Blade of the Northern Lights please tell them they shouldn't get mad at me because I can read and they can't? This edit summary contains two clear personal attacks: CoS calls Blade a 'coward' and claims that he cannot read. After I pointed out this incivility, CoS responded first with a whataboutism and then by doubling down on the incivility, stating that My words regarding Blade's lack of literacy and bravery are me speaking with pointedness, nothing more. CoS has further sought to justify their behavior by misidentifying criticism of their comments as 'personal attacks'. I believe that CoS's behavior warrants at least a 24-hour block. Failure to take appropriate action will send the message that it is okay to make personal attacks as long as one does so under the guise of opposing incivility by others. If incivility is truly as big of a concern as so many editors above have asserted, then it is imperative that we not allow an editor to engage in blatant personal attacks directly under our noses. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 06:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

@Lepricavark: you've copypasted my words but not the comment and edit summary that I called into question. I believe anyone responding to this, admin or anyone else, won't get the full picture without those two things so please copypaste them in their entirety. City of Silver 06:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The edit summary CityofSilver was replying to seems to be What in god's name is this trying to say? by The Blade of the Northern Lights (here), which refers to a comment made by CityofSilver. —El Millo (talk) 06:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You have tried this whataboutism tactic multiple times. If you wish for everyone to read the comment/editsum from Blade that prompted you to abandon your commitment to civility so quickly after you !voted to indef EEng, then you are welcome to copypaste them yourself. But I will have no part in facilitating your red herring. David Eppstein has cogently explained above why Blade's words do not constitute personal attacks, although I doubt you will listen to him. While EEng is guilty of his own incivility, I am not going to stand idly by while one of the editors who seeks to run him out of the community demonstrates that this really isn't about civility at all. Shame on you for seeking the indef of a fellow editor while simultaneously behaving the exact same way. Given that you continue to double-down on your own personal attacks, you should be blocked. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 07:01, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Referring to a single negative response as getting dogpiled is absurd. When someone questions what you're trying to say, that might be because your comment was unclear. Johnuniq (talk) 07:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Look, whatever was directed at me isn't worth blocking over. Obviously I don't think what I said is personally attacking anyone, and I thought the response was a bit of an overreaction, but blocking will just turn the heat up even higher (as pretty much all incivility blocks do). And for comments that are pretty low on the scale of things I take personally. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

That's very magnanimous of you, but I can't help but wonder what message is being sent to EEng here. As momentum gathers to run him out of town, another editor makes a comment of comparable incivility and then doubles-down repeatedly right under everyone's noses, and the best that can be mustered is a collective 'meh'. I agree that civility blocks often turn up the heat unnecessarily, but we also crossed that threshold with the EEng block. It would seem that either civility matters or it doesn't, but here the community seems to be saying that sometimes we care and sometimes a few cheap shots are okay. Perhaps the moral of the story is that if I want to get someone blocked, I should just keep calling them an unblockable until the community becomes filled with righteous indignation. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 09:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Come on, if EEng can be blocked for incivility, then so can City of Silver. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 12:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not a question of can, but of should. Either way, I've warned the user and asked them to withdraw their personal attack. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 12:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support 24-hour block of CityofSilver per Lepricavark. Clear personal attacks, and no indication whatsoever of withdrawing them. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 10:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support warning, block if not withdrawn Let's not use incivility as an excuse for more incivility. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 11:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose block for the kind offer to tutor someone they consider illiterate (and because they've had a clean block record since joining, which is commendable and shows that they have a habit of wikilearning without needing to be punished). Randy Kryn (talk) 13:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  ????? ltbdl (talk) 13:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• I've pointed out quite a few times on this noticeboard how EEng and editors like him repeatedly getting away with their holier-than-thou unpleasantness encourages other editors to do the same, and then those other editors get blocked. Here we're about to see another example of it. We can't and shouldn't hold any editor accountable for the actions of others, but I've also said before that it would be nice if EEng would care enough to do better. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  EEng is in fact currently blocked, with a high probability that the block will be escalated to an indef. So no, this is not an example of the scenario you have described. If this thread is really about incivility, why is it taking so long to block City of Silver after they doubled down repeatedly on blatant personal attacks? LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support block CityofSilvers should not be incivil in an attempt to prove incivility, or think it's OK to do so. Poor judgment there, City. ——Serial 16:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Why do you oppose the block above for incivility despite that user having many previous blocks that didn't work, but support this block for incivility despite having no previous blocks? JM (talk) 17:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support equal-term block to EEng, whatever that turns out to be, for being far more incivil, equally unapologetic, and calling for an indef of EEng for incivility, all in the same thread. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Did you type and bold the wrong username? Aaron Liu (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, they're saying that they think this user's block should be equal to the other block. JM (talk) 18:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Ah, my near-native English delinquency :)
  Well, while it does seem on the same level as the comments on Cewbot, it shouldn’t be of equal magnitude because City didn’t do uncivil responses on a closure review or any other incidents in the past. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe, but I haven't seen EEng baying for indef blocks or bans in the same thread as committing the same sort of infraction that is supposedly ban-worthy. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• City of Silver was incivil to me, as well, and appears to have doubled down. I certainly won't oppose a block of equal length to EEng's block, but what I really want to do is to call for deescalation, in lieu of boomeranging. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I had hoped that this discussion would quiet down, but, Tryptofish, how's that working out for you? EEng has posted on his talk page in what I find to be a convincing way, that he realizes his mistakes, takes responsibility, and sincerely wants to fix things. I haven't seen any comparable self-awareness from City of Silver. So I support a 72-hour block. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment You don't get to say how important civility is, and then in the next breath call another editor illiterate and a coward. That's a clear, blatant personal attack and it also isn't the first time or even the second that CoS has been called out for insulting edit summaries, and a brief glance at his user talkpage shows a bunch of other examples of weirdly aggressive edit summaries that seem completely unprovoked.[120][121][122][123][124] A 72-hour block would be well deserved, and I would endorse it if another admin issued one. I considered doing it myself, but it seems like that would needlessly escalate the drama at this point instead of deescalating. I'd rather give CoS the chance to review his own conduct and hopefully apologize, like EEng has done. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 03:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose any blocks, as editor has a block-free record. GoodDay (talk) 14:22, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  What bearing is that supposed to have? If anything they should have one instead of getting off scott-free. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I haven't endorsed the other editor's block, nor supported any site-ban. They can both throw personal attacks at me & I still wouldn't call for a block or ban. As long as neither editor is 'edit-warring', then I'm likely not going to complain. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Yes, it was a bit tone-deaf, but a trouting is probably a better recourse. - SchroCat (talk) 16:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support per David Eppstein. This edit summary was much less civil and much less justified than EEng's comments; while hypocrisy per se isn't a good reason for a block, it certainly seems relevant that CoS should be blocked according to the standards they support. --JBL (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support I concur with David Eppstein's views on blocking and length thereof and the hypocrisy-related reason for it. There's a big difference between EEng saying things like "you fucking geniuses", implying they're doing something stupid (which everyone does from time to time), versus CoS directly calling someone a coward and an illiterate. I would have let the second part slide in its original wording, as then-interpretable as a suggestion that they're having momentary reading-comprehension issues with regard to particular material, which again everyone does from time to time. But CoS came back with an unmistakable "lack of literacy" accusation, so we're done here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:41, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

As an aside.... EEng's talk page size (again)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

As a complete aside, could we get consensus that EEng's talk page is generally too large and we should take community action to archive it down to 75k per WP:TALKCOND "As a rule of thumb, archive closed discussions when a talk page exceeds 75 KB in wikitext or has numerous resolved or stale discussions". I mentioned this previously at ANI and we all had a good chuckle over EEng's talk page being visible from space, but it's not being regularly archived enough to be a manageable size. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Let's not. WP:OWNTALK gives users wide discretion over the archiving of their talk page, and there is far more harm in discussing EEng's archiving habits than there is in EEng's archiving habits. —Kusma (talk) 10:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  As I have said before, the size makes it cumbersome and difficult to read on a smartphone. The guidelines state, "User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier.". Putting up artificial barriers to non-desktop editors makes communication and collaboration harder, not easier. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  It works perfectly well on smartphones unless you use the "mobile" interface, which indeed is making it harder to communicate. Hooray for User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/unmobilePlus.js and the adaptive skins (Monobook), which make it easy to read Wikipedia on smartphones. I don't think we should use the brokenness of the "mobile" interface as an argument for doing anything other than fixing the "mobile" interface. —Kusma (talk) 11:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  "It works perfectly well on smartphones" Not using the Desktop interface on Safari under iOS, in my opinion - it is still common to get "This page reloaded because a problem repeatedly occurred" messages. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Kusma, I am currently on a fiber-optic broadband connection, and EEng's talk page has a noticeable wait time before it's usable to me. Admittedly this is partly because my gadgets make it slower; but it's really the only page for which that's true. I suggest that if a personal talk page is slower to load than ANI, some recalibration is needed. Vanamonde93 (talk) Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's not just smartphones. On this desktop, it froze the page for several seconds trying to load, and then several seconds again when I scrolled to the bottom to read the section about this ANI. It's beyond ridiculous how large the page is, and it needs archived whether EEng wants it or not. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Isn't being long as hell the whole point of EEng's talk page? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 11:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, He says " Welcome to "the only man-made talk page that can be seen from space."" But if people are struggling to read it, that's real problem and not really acceptable as it makes it hard to collaborate. Doug Weller talk 14:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Jokes shouldn't take longer to load than to laugh at, it's more than time to find a better court jester. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 16:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• I don't really care what OWNTALK says, having a talk page that is ~1MB is inconsiderate toward a large number of our users: I've had trouble loading it myself on dozens of occasions. I've told him to archive it at multiple points when it got particularly obnoxious [125], [126] (and to be fair, he did undertake to do so [127]). I do wish he'd set up a bot, but as is evidenced above, EEng doesn't love being told what to do. And I say that as someone who tremendously appreciates what he brings to the project. Vanamonde93 (talk) 13:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  (non-admin comment, and edit conflict) same

  i tried loading his user and talk pages on every possible layout/device combination i have (mobile and desktop on mobile and desktop, plus mobile app), and every possible option gave all three of my devices (good strong phone, weak work pc, currently-not-very-built-but-still-decently-strong gaming pc) a separate cardiac heart attack. the speed at which it loads doesn't matter that much in my opinion, just the fact that three separate devices struggled to load it in the first place

  while it is pretty funny, i do support trimming it down a bit so it's at most visible from atop the world's shortest dinaric cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 13:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• I'm running on a rather ancient laptop right now because of a failure on my daily driver, I think it's a Pentium Core Duo 2 with 4GB RAM. It can run Windows 10 but it cannot load EEng's talk page. In the past I've been in trouble here for starting a thread about EEng and then being unable to notify him because the page would not load, again using a bog-standard desktop browser. It's too long. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  You sort of wonder if that's the point of it, now: that he maintains such a giant talk page to deliberately make it difficult to communicate directly with him. Ravenswing 16:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  WP:AGF. Try not to cast aspertions on someone who can't respond (or anyone, for that matter). — Qwerfjkltalk 16:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The last time I brought it up (the last time I couldn't edit it) he said that he manually archives it periodically but it had been a while. While he does seem to be proud of its size, I've never seen anything to suggest he's keeping it large to prevent people from editing, and I expect he'd gladly prune it if someone asked him to. I also agree that casting aspersions in a discussion about civility is, well, a choice, Serial Number 54129. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 17:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  People have been asking him to prune it for quite some time now, for the good it's done. I don't think "gladly" is so much a question as "if at all." Ravenswing 22:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Enforce an archive bot - I mostly don't like to suggest controlling any editors' talkpage. But, I am a believer in them having an archive bot, so such talkpages don't make it near impossible to communicate directly with an editor. GoodDay (talk) 16:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• ...As a complete aside, could we get consensus that EEng's talk page is generally too large What Ritchie333 really means is, there's no way I could get a consensus to even propose this usually, but now the guy's on the ropes, I can put the boot in. Nice one. ——Serial 16:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Again, please WP:AGF, especially since it's not the first time this talk page issue is discussed. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Please do not even attempt to patronise me, and meanwhile, go throw your accusations of ABF elsewhere in the above thread—where it's actually needed. ——Serial 17:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  My apologies if this came out as patronizing, or personal in any way. I feel like it's just a healthy reminder for everyone to not immediately jump to bad-faith interpretations. Happy editing, ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 17:10, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  It wasn't at all patronizing. What Ritchie333 really means is, there's no way I could get a consensus to even propose this usually, but now the guy's on the ropes, I can put the boot in. Nice one is plainly assuming bad faith. There was no problem with someone calling it out. JM (talk) 17:44, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  And, luckily enough, a perfect representation of the facts: there is absolutely no tangible connection with any of EEng's behavioral issues and the length of their talk page; thus there was absolutely no pertinent reason for raising the issue. If anything, I would classify it as having an element of WP:GRAVEDANCING. It was wholly irrelevant and unnecessary, so why raise it when his critics are gathered in the same room? (Hypothetical question: no unconvincing reply is necessary nor a convincing one possible.) ——Serial 18:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  And what’s wrong with that? If you’re saying that ANI is the room of EEng critics, then obviously something’s going on. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  there is absolutely no tangible connection with any of EEng's behavioral issues

  I disagree. For one, it demonstrates that EEng values getting his own laughs over community norms. For another, it's impacting users ability to view the conversation about this ANI on his Talk page, so they can make up their own minds. The extreme size of that page is directly related to these behavioral issues under discussion. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:48, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  While I agree with your point of it being relevant to the topic, I also understand how it could've been interpreted as an attempt to attack EEng from another angle by splitting off in a new discussion, although I don't believe this was the actual intention. But yes, both should be analyzed together, and the talk page issue is more of a symptom of the greater issues at hand. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  No, that is not what I mean at all. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Enforce an archive bot, I usually prefer to enforce WP:OWNTALK and let users decide how they use their talk page, however if it gets to the point that it impedes on communication by making it difficult, or nearly impossible, then I do feel we should enforce an archive bot. We're concerned about those with less than decent internet connections elsewhere, why not here? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 17:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support, with regard to Eeng's TP. I'm still trying to figure out where I land on the broader issues of Eeng's conduct above: I am trying to thread the needle between the fact that I can't turn a blind eye to some of the conduct reported and my belief that Eeng is one of the more uniquely valuable people within our community culture. But I am unequivocal in my support for mandating archiving of his talk page. It's an issue about which I've raised my own concerns with him before (and he did at the time engage in some clean-up at that time, it is worth noting), but there needs to be a simple longterm solution. Let's be honest: the only reason that WP:OWNTALK reads as it does with regard to talk page length is because no one else (to my knowledge) has ever pushed the community's patience on the matter a fraction as far as Eeng. More to the point, within WP:OWNTALK (well before the language granting user's significant autonomy in maintaining their talk page, comes this overarching proviso: "User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier." Clearly Eeng's approach to archive his TP runs very much in the opposite direction.
  This is an WP:ACCESSIBILITY issue, plain and simple: those expressing that the page loads fine on this or that niche piece of hardware are either missing a very obvious point or feigning being obtuse about it; an user's talk page should be accessible for it's intended purposes (discussions and notices in service of the project, not lively discussion and an art project to thumb one's nose at conformity) for the average user, not the one who has cracked the code on just the right software and hardware, in conjunction with TB/s bandwdith. For that matter, I know for a fact that I have loaded that talk page on at least five different operating systems, at least as many distinct browsers, and on hardware ranging from high-end to aging, inclusive of PCs and phones, and I can tell you there are always issues: it's merely a matter of whether it is bad or worse.
  When you consider that a non-trivial number of processes require users to add notifications to Eeng's talk page, it is clearly unreasonable to allow the equivalent of an (illustrated) Tolstoy novel to stay live in that space. Personally, I think it would be ludicrous if we would have to make an overt change to OWNTALK to set a firm upper threshold just to wrangle one user's run-away conduct in this regard, but if that's what we have to do, let's do it.
  In a way, this whole issue is a microcosm of Eeng's issues (and I say this as someone who can't help but respect and like the guy to an extent that belies the number of times I've found myself debating basic canons of editor behaviour with him): in testing the limits of individual user conduct (be it with the length of the talk page, or off-colour humour, or "bad words", or sheer bluntness) in ways that he seems to regard as taking a stance against pressure towards conformity, he often fails to realize that he is generating pressure to tighten those very same restrictions, for everyone. It's a difficult position for me, because I think we could use more users with some of Eeng's qualities, but I also think we need Eeng himself to be just a tad less Eeng. Helpful commentary, I know... SnowRise ^{let's rap} 17:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Add a firm statement to WP:OWNTALK that pages reaching 100K raw byte size (I'm feeling generous, & there are all those Xmas/NY greetings) should be archived or otherwise reduced. I may say more generally that I'm rather astonished by the different treatment of EEng here, compared to two other much ruder & aggressive (imo) long-term editors currently higher up the page. Johnbod (talk) 17:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  WTF??

  I archive my talk page regularly and quarterly and it still regularly reaches roughly that size.

  That is not a problematic size. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Calm down! Well, 150K or 200K, whatever. Personally, I like to keep mine less than 80K. It's not just the actual number of bytes, but the sheer hassle of finding a section on a long page, if you want to return to it. Until you just archived it (from 110K to 15K) that was inconvenient on your talk, not that I ever look at it normally. Talking of which, this page here is over 500K, which is a complete pain. Johnbod (talk) 01:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  As someone who personally likes to archive much more often (at like 40k byte size), I agree that 100k isn't a problematic size and that users should have some amount of leeway in their archiving (although it starts to be too much when a non-negligible portion of users have difficulties accessing it, but that's way over 100k). ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Enforce an archive bot per above. If a talk page is too large to use, it needs to be reduced to a useable size. JM (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose any action. Users should be free to determine the archiving policies of their own messages. We should not be the thought police, going into others' emails and telling them what to keep and what to put on a back shelf. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  What's your solution if I want to post on EEng's talk page and get a Safari iOS error, "This page cannot be loaded because a problem repeatedly occurred?" Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 18:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  This has nothing to do with thought police, and everything to do with purposefully allowing the page to drag down people's browsers when they try to interact with EEng. The limit to freedom is when it starts affecting the community, and this negatively affects the community's ability to communicate with EEng on his talk page, or even just to view the discussion occurring there. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:50, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  If your browser cannot handle a 1 Mb file, you need a better browser. That is tiny compared to most files that browsers routinely handle. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:53, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  from my limited knowledge on html5, it's a certain amount of raw text, but some of that text asks to load external things like images, gifs, funny borders, or different fonts and text sizes, resulting in a bit more than 1mb of data having to be loaded. add any wacky gadgets you might have that have to be loaded all the time, and it's a lot for a lot of devices to juggle around at once

  if a talk page gives so many people so much trouble, it might be something to worry about cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 19:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Loading a 1 Mb image is not at all the same as loading a 1 Mb talk page with tens of thousands of HTML elements. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  1Mb is the text size, but EEng's talk page is full of media and CSS hacks. I don't know how to reliably measure a web page's memory imprint, but when I loaded a separate Firefox process and loaded just the talk page, it reported memory usage a bit over 300Mb. Besides, telling people that they need newer equipment to edit flies in the face of Wikipedia's "free encyclopedia for everyone" mission. Many users access and/or edit Wikipedia from connections like dialup or slow mobile networks or underfunded shared library systems that many of us would have considered painfully slow 25 years ago. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  More to the point, people increasingly only use smartphones and tablets over laptops and desktops, with substantially less computing power, and since they “just work” for pretty much everything in the modern world, anything that has a performance impact is problematic and should be corrected. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I do know how to measure a page's footprint, and 300Mb is about right. For reference, this is about the same memory usage as a tab with a facebook feed in it on my PC. MrOllie (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  checked on my good pc, 446 mb on my end

  for context, pizza tower is a 257.71 mb pile of files cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 21:49, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I think there might be something wrong with your configurations? I just checked on my end, and it's only 120mb. Pizza Tower, in comparison, is 20 mb - I'm running standard Firefox. BilledMammal (talk) 22:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  must be my gadgets then, because i use a few of those

  and as it turns out, 446 was lowballing it, i haven't seen anything under 500 now. god i wish i could blame chrome

  as for pizza tower, i meant all the steam files for it, not the act of running the game itself, which is a lot less than that at any given time cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 23:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I actually misunderstood in a totally different way, and assumed you were referring to the Pizza Tower article… BilledMammal (talk) 02:00, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I thought you meant the article and I was really, really confused ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 23:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  As a devout patron of c:Commons:Convenient Discussions, when I open that talk page, it loads for so darn long I have to manually disable it and edit the page text like a caveman. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  My Chrome browser (which is up to date) actually froze momentarily and asked if I wanted to kill the page. It finished loading after another two minutes with Convenient Discussions. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  What a shitty non-response. Try actually listening to people who are having problems on multiple different platforms, instead of just dismissing the issue out of hand. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Erm, could you tune it down a bit? Aaron Liu (talk) 22:30, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm sorry, but an admin giving a snarky you need a better browser response in the face of all these reports is incredibly condescending. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:33, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Both you and David could've done better here: incivility is not an excuse for incivility. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 23:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support archiving. WP:UOWN gives a lot of leeway to users in their own userspace, but it also says: "pages in user space belong to the wider community. They are not a personal homepage, and do not belong to the user." I imagine we'd look similarly dimly on an editor who through code or script partially disabled access to their talk page. Talk pages exist to facilitate communication. Ritchie333 If you start a formal proposal to change UOWN, will you ping me? Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 18:38, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Update: Through email, EEng has asked me to temp-unblock him so that he can archive his talk page himself rather than getting it done badly by someone else. But since the triggering incident for this thread (a discussion of Cewbot's behavior) also involved me, I think I am too WP:INVOLVED to do that. Maybe someone else could? Alternatively, we could close this sub-thread as moot: either he eventually gets unblocked (after which he has promised to archive) or he isn't in which case there is no good reason to demand archiving. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, you are too involved to do that. EEng should be able to figure out how to set up an auto-archiving bot for a single run and then remove the code, and only needs to edit his talk page to do that. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  The only person that request should be directed to is Isabelle Belato. nableezy - 19:19, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support archiving. WP:UOWN is not a suicide pact. We've always decided the limits of user preferences are drawn when it inhibits collaboration and discussion (hence where we've blocked users for their signatures.) Eeng is intelligent enough to have figured out this is an issue; he just doesn't care. If he doesn't want to be treated like a child, any time before now would have been the opportunity to show it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Not helpful. I just knew that someone would eventually propose this, but I didn't expect it to be someone I respect as much as I respect Ritchie. If we're going to make this requirement, let's make it a requirement for every user talk page of this length. But if it's going to be done just to EEng, it reeks of punishment-because-we-can. It's just escalating an ANI thread that is far past its sell-by date. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:13, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Tryptofish: Out of curiosity, what other user talk pages are of this length? ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 22:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Since you pinged me, I should post in reply, but I think it's best if I do not name anyone. But I've seen some. (And since I have this opportunity, I'll also say, facetiously, that the length of the ANI thread is getting pretty close.) --Tryptofish (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough. EEng is the only one I've seen so I was just curious. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 23:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not going to bother counting but the database report says there are like 100 user talk pages longer than EEng's (many are subpages). Levivich (talk) 23:27, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Most of the non-subpages are inactive user talk pages that have been piling up newsletters, some of which blocked. I don't know if there's any other "legitimate" user talk page longer than EEng's. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  None larger from what I can see, but some that are just as large. I'm fine with imposing a hard limit on other users. I simply wasn't aware of other users. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{blaze__wolf} 00:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  currently, this thread has around 4 less comments than their talk page has threads

  that's kind of scary cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 23:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Not helpful regardless of Ritchie's intentions in filing this, it seems awfully opportunistic to seize a moment when EEng is already under siege to raise this perennial complaint again. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 22:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose We cannot enforce user talk page archiving vi ANI pique, if you change this sort of thing then there should be a discussion held at WP:TPG or the village pump about a policy enactment. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Not helpful due to timing, per Tryptofish. Remsense留 02:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Zaathras; if this an issue we should impose a general solution and not dog pile on EEng while he’s in the dog house - it feels a little too close to WP:GRAVEDANCING to me, even though that was obviously not the intention. BilledMammal (talk) 01:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree with Zaathras and BilledMammal, either we decide on a standard for everyone or we don't. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 02:20, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support/Enforce Those citing OWNTALK should note it states "User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier. Editors who refuse to use their talk page for these purposes are violating the spirit of the talk page guidelines, and are not acting collaboratively." This has come up much more recently than the 2021 report opened above. EENG has been fully aware their talkpage causes issues for others for years, and citing laziness at this point is entirely risible. Leaving an easiliy resolved problem like that around for years is an active choice, yet EEng has specifically asked others not to expect "miracles" regarding the talkpage. With a few lines of code, the miracle can happen. Quite happy for this to be a general rule at whatever point between the 100k suggested above and the current causing my browser to lag. We already split out large discussions from village pumps into their own subpages, the concept being proposed is not novel. CMD (talk) 02:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. For the avoidance of doubt, noting here too that I oppose this. Under the present circumstances, the proposal leaves a bad taste in my mouth, though I understand it was put forward with good intentions. EEng's talk page being unusually long has nothing to do with the reasons for his block. Yngvadottir (talk) 02:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Consider postponing action on this until EEng is unblocked in the future. User talk:EEng is a problem and needs fixing but there's no rush to resolve this issue. After EEng is back with us, revisit the issue. Any action should be generic and not just apply to EEng's page. I know this 286 kB version of User:Aman.kumar.goel's talk page was a problem until an admin told him to downsize it. Perhaps an RfC elsewhere rather than here. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 03:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose this pointless WP:GRAVEDANCING. Ritchie is generally a sensible editor, but I'll note that no attempt was made to ask EEng to archive his page before bringing it here trying to have a community-based sanction placed to force him to do so. At User talk:EEng he did mention that he opened this sub-discussion after doing so, and EEng immediately said he was willing to archive it once his block expires (or if he were to be unblocked temporarily, which is unlikely to happen). In the above-linked thread of this same thing happening 3 years ago, Ritchie again went to ANI to force the issue before trying to just ask EEng, and EEng immediately agreed to archive. Unless he refuses to once unblocked, this discussion is moot. Sometimes I think we need something like WP:BEFORE but for the dramaboards. It would only need one sentence, something like "Hey, have you tried talking to them first?". The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 04:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposal: Civility restriction for EEng

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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How about this? (Copied verbatim from WP:EDR#HiLo48)

The community authorizes an indefinite civility restriction for EEng. If they make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, then they may be blocked for a short time up to one week, and up to an indefinite duration for repeat offenses. Blocks resulting from this restriction can only be appealed to the blocking administrator or the community, where community consensus takes precedence. The civility restriction can be appealed to the community after one year since the restriction was imposed or the last enforcement action (whichever is later), and each year thereafter.

An indef or community ban doesn't seem likely to gain consensus based on my quick reading of the discussion, but the doubling down after the block and the litany of ANI threads listed by Thebiguglyalien indicates that there's clearly a long-term pattern that one 72-hour block is unlikely to solve. This proposal would prevent the sort of unilateral single-admin unblocks that supporters of a CBAN have cited as a reason for supporting a ban. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callitropsis (talk • contribs)

• Support as proposer, reluctantly. This seems like the sort of unhappy compromise that's likely to just kick things further down the road, but it's binding and splits the difference between those calling for a CBAN and those who say that a 72-hour block is sufficient. To paraphrase Robert McClenon in a previous thread, I personally think civility restrictions are kind of ridiculous because, in theory, everyone is required to follow WP:CIVIL, but from an outsider's view this entire situation also seems kind of ridiculous so maybe it's par for the course. — Callitropsis🌲[talk · contribs] 20:15, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support as a good compromise. A 72-hour block isn't enough to address chronic behavior, but I understand why people wouldn't want an indefinite block either. This seems like a way to let him help around productively while keeping an eye on the civility issue. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 20:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Changing to Oppose as I've been convinced by some commenters below. The point is that it's a pretty toothless proposal, which basically amounts to the status quo of "breaking rules has consequences". ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support per ChaoticEnby. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:22, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose per ChaoticEnby and EEng. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. This !vote should not be construed as dropping my support for an indef block or a siteban. JM (talk) 20:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support per my comments above. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 20:51, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support worth trying something, since the status quo clearly ain't doing the trick. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 21:18, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support. I'll support this, too. I can see ways this might turn wrong (does it really make sense to talk about repeat offenses? and I worry about people baiting him), but I don't want the perfect to be the enemy of the good enough. Having this hang over his head might help EEng do better. I'll also say that it might be productive to consider partial bans from places where he pretty much always shoots himself in the foot. For example, he attracts a lot of ill will from his quasi-humorous posts on ANI and other dramaboards. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:25, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm not going to move to oppose, but given EEng's self-requested indef (so to speak), I no longer see this as such a good idea. I also agree with some comments below, about how these restrictions can be problematic. But I still want to leave this on the table, at least, for consideration when he gets "back". --Tryptofish (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support as a new-ish user, in case my perspective is helpful. I don't think a restriction that says "the rules apply to you" is ridiculous; it's a way to assuage our concerns that they don't! Many of us seem to feel that EEng is held to lower standards than other editors. The first two replies seemed to suggest we shouldn't bother complaining about him. Wikipedia is very intimidating; it feels like there are a million rules and quasi-rule essays and unwritten expectations. I'm nervous about even posting here, because I worry I'm expected to have X edits or Y Good Articles first! I've found the expectations of Civility, Assuming Good Faith, and encouraging Boldness to be crucial in getting me over these hurdles, and I think people are right to worry that an implicit norm of "If you're popular/funny/productive enough, you can insult and disdain people" will scare away new editors, like me. We should reject that idea explicitly. Ghosts of Europa (talk) 21:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support as a way to keep EEng's positive contributions while mitigating the incivility concerns. Setting this restriction will show if EEng can still contribute long-term without being uncivil, while also saving time and discussion if he is uncivil again in the future, with the course of action for such a situation already set in place. —El Millo (talk) 22:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Context The user himself has stated the following on his talk page (see the comment reposted above by Aaron Liu): I think at this point it's best I get the indefinite block. JM (talk) 22:17, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: I don't see the need for "compromise," and there is nothing in this measure that an admin cannot already do, at will, without our input or leave. We have had a long history to show us that, ultimately, not only does EEng not give a damn what we think in re: civility, but he's said as much outright. Ravenswing 22:21, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Ravenswing but please either support or withdraw your claim that "not only does EEng not give a damn what we think in re: civility, but he's said as much outright" [128]. This is a very serious personal attack. (In the old days I would have stated my indignation in much stronger terms, but since my lobotomy I'm much calmer.)
— [[User:EEng 23:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)]]

Copied from his talk page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per Ravenswing. I don't think this proposed sanction is very meaningful. BilledMammal (talk) 22:46, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose on the grounds that "civility parole" (as it used to be called when it was in vogue in the mid to late 00s) is bullshit and has consistently proven ineffective. It didn't work with Giano, TRM, Betacommand, BrownHairedGirl or anyone else that I can recall. All it does is create ongoing resentment with a Sword of Damocles hanging over their head indefinitely, while giving others an excuse to needle/provoke them and block when they snip back (which gets used as further evidence to avoid removing the restriction). Block him if the incivility is causing disruption, ask him to tone it down if it isn't, but this sort of half measure isn't going to work. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 23:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per The Wordsmith. These measures don't work and are easily gamed. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose - There are two types of compromises: those that make everyone happier and those that makes everyone angrier. This definitely fits into the latter for reasons brilliantly explained by The Wordsmith above. Not to hate on the proposers, however, this is more of a mock-up solution masquerading as a real one; it will essentially just worsen the issue by creating unneeded angst while incentivizing the unscrupulous to bait them. Literally just indeff as stated in my !vote above; that's objectively the easiest and logical solution to this. — Knightoftheswords 23:20, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as redundant. There is already such a civility restriction that applies to all editors, and to say that EEng has already committed repeat offenses would be an understatement. Measures like these imply that incivility is a privilege that we're taking away. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as stupid. As a senior editor, EEng should know that WP:CIV exists, and that they need to follow it as a core Wikipedia policy. From memory, there was an AN/I thread a while ago about EEgn's incivility. They should be well aware that their incivility is a problem, but has not taken any steps towards resolving it. A harsher restriction is required in this case. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Arbitrary break 2 (EEng)

• The bot issue needs to be decided via RFC, because it's a sitewide issue that does not affect just one user, and it should not be argued (with escalating vehemence) on usertalk (or on ANI). Unless the protestors decide to drop the issue or have found a resolution, an RFC should be opened. Softlavender (talk) 23:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  There's a discussion currently at WT:TPG#User talk page size. And I agree that ANI is not the right way to do it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  That discussion is not about the bot. it's about user talkpage size. Softlavender (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  I’m confused, what is the bot? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  One proposal is to have an existing archival bot template applied to pages like EEng's that are excessively large, if the user does not agree to archive it themselves. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but wouldn't that be the same as "about user talkpage size"? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  RfCs should only be used when there’s no consensus in a regular discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Well, given that the "regular discussion" attempt with the bot operators in question led to this ANI mess, and the botops did not (that I know of at this point) change what the bot is doing, that seems ripe for an RfC after all.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:06, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  That's not true, Aaron Liu. Issues that are negatively affecting every user's watchlist should be handled via a Centralized Discussion RFC, so that all users can see it and weigh in. Softlavender (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support EEng. This is absurd. EEng has a certain sense of humour that might offend those without one. It's a welcome and age-old contribution to places that sometimes take themselves too seriously on en.WP. EEng is deeply knowledgeable in matters like style—I say that even if I don't always agree with him. I urge admins to close this thread now. Tony (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I can see both sides of the argument, but I definitely agree that this ANI discussion has become unproductive. As this discussion, ironically, accumulates more and more arbitrary breaks, to where it resembles a certain user talk page, as just above, I link to another discussion that was already linked but has been lost in the tl;dr, and as editors continue to demand an indef, apparently unaware that, fully a day ago, EEng posted on his talk page, and I think it's been copied over to the tl;dr here, that he is self-requesting an indef, this whole mess here had become a time sink. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Calling people targeted by such incivility "those without a sense of humour" is not a good take. I also don't think the admins should be urged to close the thread when there's no consensus, possibly unless it's because Eeng has been given the indef that he himself has requested; in that case. JM (talk) 00:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  In a reversal of the trend that I perceived in the early stages of this thread, it has become apparent that the community as a whole is not persuaded toward a consensus in support of an indef block. We can continue to leave this megathread open to generate heat despite the ever-diminishing odds of any kind of consensus, or we can close it down and let EEng serve out the block (which, despite all the dire predictions, was never actually lifted). LEPRICAVARK (talk) 00:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Last I heard, Eeng explicitly wanted an indef. JM (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  He (assuming that’s the correct pronoun) said that he prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back. You can’t use such words in lieu of an argument. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, that is correct. With the civility restriction off the table, we should not assume that EEng wishes to be indeffed, especially as that there is not developing consensus in favor of that outcome. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  This is completely important: prefers the indef over a civility restriction that puts a target on his back – That's very, very different from the claim made above, at least twice by two different people, that he "requested an indef". That's a serious distortion, but it could easily affect the outcome here by encouraging people to post bogus "Indef because he wants it anyway" !votes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Serious distortion? One can wikilawyer over the meaning of the way that he said it, but here is the actual diff of what he said: [129]. He actually never said the he "would prefer" an indef over the restriction. What he said was that it "will be more effective". Oh, and all that was also copied over to here at ANI, but apparently has also gotten lost in the tl;dr. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Fair point. So, he said that this has wasted everyone’s time So I think at this point it's best I get the indefinite block and then said that an indef would be more effective than a civility restriction for reasons I’ve said above, and then prepares for a wikibreak in case he gets blocked. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  It is starting to seem as though some of the most vocal detractors here are determined to have EEng gone by any means necessary. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  I agree, especially since we can resolve this by waiting... one day for the block to run out. If EEng still wants an indef, he can clarify tomorrow. And if he does request one, does our consensus over whether to grant it even matter? Would an admin actually refuse his request because we didn't push hard enough for it? Ghosts of Europa (talk) 01:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• I am actually pleasantly surprised that the block still stands, I thought EEng is unblockable (I remember last time I said something about EEng's behavior at ANI, I got a reply from a third party which I read as I should be blocked and not EEng). Anyway, we are not going for an indef, and I personally would have difficulties fully supporting indef at this point. However, a hypothetical situation when a user has a hundred of three day to a week blocks for incivility and apparently considers them "badges of honor" is also not acceptable. What I would like to see as an outcome of this discussion is a logged warning that further violations will be met with escalating blocks. This is what we would expect from every non-unblockable user. And then, if this continues, may be after two or three iterations naturally come to an indef. Or may be it stops, which would be the best outcome of the whole exercise.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN and removal of uncited content dispute

I reverted this edit by 2603:7000:2101:aa00:d5ae:2d16:b03b:9c46, who then told me on my talk page that I had to provide a reliable source for the content I restored per WP:BURDEN. After some more discussion, I decided to go here because I'm not entirely sure of the best course of action since the IP's only contributions that aren't to my talkpage are removing uncited content, much of which they said was OR [130] [131] [132] [133] [134] (the one I reverted) [135] [136] [137] [138]] [139]. ‍ Relativity 01:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

My IP address changes all the time, so (as you might have anticipated by my referring to the wp rules), I have edited more than the edits you point to. But I'm unclear what your question is. Whether you have to comply with wp:burden, and what it requires? I've already discussed that with you at length on your talk page. Do you still believe you do not have to do so? And if so, why do you bring that question here? --2603:7000:2101:AA00:D5AE:2D16:B03B:9C46 (talk) 01:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I am bringing it here because I am seeing a lot of content removal from your end, and I just don't know whether to restore it or leave it as be. ‍ Relativity 01:57, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I already discussed this with you at length on your talk page. Citing wp:burden to you. Quoting from wp:burden to you. I'm unclear what your struggle is with, in understanding that per wp:burden you are welcome to restore the uncited material - but with appropriate RS refs. Which you have not added, though you restored the uncited material. Or why you believe that ANI is the appropriate place to discuss it. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:D5AE:2D16:B03B:9C46 (talk) 02:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, alright, after seeing your comments, what if I self-revert, but you have to put a copy of the content you removed on that article's talk page and we'll try to find reliable sources for it? (I'll do it if you agree, so I'm just waiting for your response) ‍ Relativity 02:05, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not a requirement of wp:burden, and is not normal at wp. Feel free to self-revert, so you are in compliance with wp:burden. Feel free to restore any such content with RS refs that comply with wp:burden. As the word "burden" implies, there is a burden here - and it is on you, if you wish to restore such content - with appropriate refs. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:D5AE:2D16:B03B:9C46 (talk) 02:14, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's not normal, but WP:IAR since this would actually help improve Wikipedia and solve this dispute. ‍ Relativity 03:00, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

There's no dispute here. You're ignoring wp:burden. By insisting that the burden is on others. And bringing your desire that wp:burden would impose burdens on others, in the manner your personally prefer, that is at odds with what the rule clearly says, to a forum that is certainly not a place to bring it and waste the time of others who are trying to address matters of greater moment than your desire to ignore a clear rule. 2603:7000:2101:AA00:D5AE:2D16:B03B:9C46 (talk) 04:08, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

From an outsider's POV, the best course of action is for someone to remove the restoration per WP:BURDEN as The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and then open a discussion the removed content on the talk page if they want, but the IP is under no obligation to discuss it. JM (talk) 04:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I'll do that. My sincere apologies to the IP user. ‍ Relativity 04:32, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh and also you can verify it yourself without even needing to discuss it and restore it to the article with verification, because that would satisfy WP:BURDEN. JM (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Wait a moment. The responsibility to confirm whether the added text is backed by the source rests with @Relativity. However, in instances where the added text lacks citations, someone may choose to either delete the text, request references, or insert a Citation needed template and wait for a couple of weeks. See Wikipedia:Verifiability Cinadon36 12:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what the problem is. I'm just saying that they could find the references and then restore it themselves since it would then satisfy BURDEN and V since it's been verified by the person restoring it. JM (talk) 17:59, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, completely agree, @JM2023. Cinadon36 18:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I would suggest to all parties involved that, absent potentially libelous material posted in a BLP, it is almost always better to start by adding a {{citation needed}} tag where the content is relatively longstanding, to give fair warning that said content may be removed in the near future. BD2412 T 01:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Long standing or not the original IP editor thought this content was wrong, not just missing a citation. It's not a situation where they were removing all unreferenced text, only select parts. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

USS Nezinscot

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Help! I have completely screwed up an edit to change the name of the article USS Nezinscot. The designator (1908) is not needed because their was only one U.S. Navy ship named Nezinscot. Please correct my mistake and I promise I will be more careful in the future. The move page is not idiot proof as I can attest! Cuprum17 (talk) 15:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

I've moved the page back to main space. Please verify it's correct. Also, don't worry, these things happen. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 15:11, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

No worries, these mistakes happen to the best of us! ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 16:16, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Goodness, we’re happy to have you. Fret not. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:55, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Detroit IPs have a daily edit-warring pattern on Eurhythmics chronology

• 2601:401:101:4210:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial))

For five days in a row, someone from Detroit has been changing the numbered sequence of Eurhythmics albums under the assumption that the film soundtrack 1984 (For the Love of Big Brother) is number 4. Subsequent albums are incorrectly bumped up a number.[140][141] These edits are reverted every day because they are wrong.

This person doesn't communicate on talk pages. If they did, I would explain that the media consider 1984 an album apart from the band's chronology, and that Be Yourself Tonight is the fourth. BBC writes, "the Eurythmics' fourth album, Be Yourself Tonight". AllMusic continues the standard chronology, saying, "If Revenge, Eurythmics' fifth album, marked a slight fall-off... Savage, their sixth collection, confirmed that decline." Can we block this range from article space so they can discuss the matter? Binksternet (talk) 16:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done I've blocked them from article space for two weeks. If they come up with a good explanation and/or indicate a willingness to stop edit warring and engage constructively, I'm happy for anyone to reduce/remove the block. WaggersTALK 16:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Doherty93 ignoring content policies, edit-warring, & making personal attacks

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Doherty93 has been edit-warring and more generally violating the verifiability policy at Masjid al-Qiblatayn (Somaliland). I've also opened an SPI about some suspicious activity on this article, but SPIs take time and the behaviour has worsened since then:

• Last week I added a maintenance template to the article because a central claim of the article (the mosque's age) was sourced to a travel guide, which is clearly not a reliable source ([142]). After a few days, Doherty93 began to repeatedly remove the template without discussion, often using the excuse of replacing it with a citation to sources that do not in fact support the statement, or even say anything about the topic at all: [143], [144], [145], [146]. (You can check the last citation yourself, CIA handbook, and the full text of the JSTOR ref before that says nothing either.) More recently, they added citations to non-reliable websites ([147]).
• After the first edit, I posted a standard notice about on their user talk page ([148]). After the 2nd time they added irrelevant sources (3rd edit overall), I explained the issue on the talk page more directly ([149]). On their user talk page they then falsely claimed that the sources support the statement and asserted that their WP:OR is "known fact" ([150]). I've since tried to further explain the problems (and warned them about reporting things here) and tried get them to engage constructively on the talk page: [151], [152], [153], [154]). They've ignored or dismissed these and continued with the edits mentioned above (and others), despite reverting several times and restating the problem (see page history).

• Additionally, as of today, their responses and one edit summary have turned into personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith: [155], [156], [157]. My last reply attempted to get them to stop this and get back on topic ([158]), to no avail ([159]).

Given these latest responses, I currently don't see any way forward to convince them to edit by consensus or to even use sources correctly. R Prazeres (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Why are you lying? My sources are from the US and UK government. Stop your nonsense. Your dissenting views are based on envy and racism. Doherty93 (talk) 19:42, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You was questioning and doubting and there is nothing to doubt. It’s you who want to make the article obscure and misleading. Doherty93 (talk) 19:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

You'd better have some serious evidence of racism, because if not you're heading for a block. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:54, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Note that the user has been blocked indefinitely JM (talk) 20:39, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

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User:Abdallasom renaming to a new user account - needs fixing and warning

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User:Abdallasom, with a history of vandalism and warnings, has moved his account to User:G5050, a pre-existing (unknown) account that looks like sockpuppetry to me. I am on my way out so I do not have the time to fix, warn the user, and educate about the proper way to change username. Can somebody take a look? Thanks. -- Alexf^(talk) 21:41, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

G5050 is not an account, on this project or any other. I see no evidence of socking, but I also see nothing but vandalism, for which Abdallasom is now blocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:09, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Appears to have been a user page + user talk page move, but it got deleted and recreated back at the original name. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 01:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Singapore national team

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Singapore national team 121.7.127.187 (talk) 00:46, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

...yes? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the now-blocked IP was helpfully pointing us to their pattern of unconstructive edits on that article in the hope that we might take administrative action. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Disruption and homophobia from User:Bgsu98

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Sadly I am having to file a report due to the disruption and homophobic comments from User:Bgsu98. On Dancing on Ice, I fixed a clear mistake but this user continues to revert and falsely claims the edits as Disruptive on an edit summary, continuing to refer to a male figure skater as a poof, an offensive gay slur. Manipulative Maniac (talk) 03:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• No, you don't, and you are so obviously distorting what the editor said that I'm embarrassed at even having to state that. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oh. Never mind: troll, be gone. Drmies (talk) 03:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Oh, I knew it was her. I'd just fired up the desktop to file the SPI request; meanwhile, you'd already taken care of it. Bgsu98 (Talk) 03:14, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
    • All in a day's work, User:Bgsu98--*poof* she was gone. Drmies (talk) 03:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

      Stop with the homophobia! <eye roll> Bgsu98 (Talk) 03:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

      • Wow. Words can have multiple meanings. Who knew? Cullen328 (talk) 04:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Talk:Stepanakert#Legal action against Wikipedia

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Self explanatory, see Talk:Stepanakert#Legal action against Wikipedia.  // Timothy :: talk  08:42, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I've blocked the user per WP:NLT and closed down that talk page thread. WaggersTALK 08:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Repeated content removal in the article Peranakans

Calling for prompt intervention on the repeated blanking of content (and the repeated addition of a rather comical hatnote "descendants of a country child and a foreigner") by User:Visnu92 in Peranakans, which had been subject to an edit war involving said user and placed on temporary protection. Discussions are ongoing in Talk:Peranakans#Should we transfer the 'lost' information into another article? and the related page move issue, but said user has continued with disruptive behaviour of blanking content after the expiry of page protection. hundenvonPG (talk) 09:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

It is a bit annoying to have the page re-blanked despite the ongoing RM. (Courtesy ping to Ymblanter, protecting admin.) CMD (talk) 13:51, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

We probably want to hear from @Visnu92: here. Ymblanter (talk) 06:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive user who's WP:NOTHERE

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Please take a look at the user Dopplegangman, he is repeatedly being disruptive, tendentiously editing pages to promote religious glorification, and edit warring.

Tendentious edits- On the page Origin of Martial Arts, he replaced the word "India" with "Punjab", nevermind being unsourced, it's attributing the achievements and history of an entire subcontinent filled with hundreds of diverse regions to one state. It's the equivalent of attributing the history and achievements of Europe in a certain field solely to Germany or France, it's clearly religious and regional chest thumping and disruptive.

On the page Nanakpanthi, he added an unsourced claim that 200 million people are followers of and have some level of reverence for his religion. Unsourced and again religious aggrandizing.

On the page martial race, he again added an unsourced claim inflating his religion's contributions to the Indian armed forces.

On this page, he made an unsourced edit claiming a religious maunscript was created much later than it actually was, which is a form of diminshing another religion's history

Makes an unsourced claim inflating the number of casulaties his co-religionists inflicted on an opposing side

Disruptive and absolutely ridiculous comments on other user and article talk pages- To those not familiar with Sikh or Indian history, this is clearly an attempt to further bolster a certain caste's grasp and hegemony on their religion. It's also completely unsourced, unsupported nonsense.

This

more regional chest thumping by falsely claiming the Buddha was from Punjab

And to top it off- persistent edit warring-[160].

This user is clearly not competent to be on this project. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 09:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe this is an unfair attack on my character as a Wikipedia editor these claims are coming from a know sock puppet

the edit warring claims are unwarranted as I place down a sourced claim and other come and take it down

the Bhagavata Gita claim was due to the fact that I did not know how to add sources yet but here is my source -https://homework.study.com/explanation/where-is-the-original-bhagavad-gita.html

but any search online will support my claim as the oldest manuscript dates back to 1492

the Indian or Punjabi martial arts claim was a mid edit as I was changing other words inside to Punjabi as many sources state this when you talk about where the Queen Elizabeth was born you would say England not Europe as well as this using the word Indian is diminishing the help that people from punjab and central Asian that helped with the martial arts like BodiDharma I believe it should show what ethnicities contributed to what as when those martial arts where created India was never one country or one ethnicity this diminishes what the empire who lived in those regions or the people did you would say wing chin came from the eastern world would you

The claim that guru Nanak was Khatri or born a Hindu is supported by no definitive evidence that dates back to his time so I was stating a fact that it shouldn’t be included I never stated he came from another ethnic group or religion like this man claims I only state there is no evidence to support the claim

for the NanakPanthi Wikipedia used to state there were around 100-200 million members of this religion so I was just readding it I do not belong to this faith like this man claims

I am not a Sikh but for the claim on the deaths and casualties it is not known how many died and the source that give the number is not verified and does not say his source but many historians suggest the number was closer to 2000 but I forgot to source it

Thsi man is a clear Liar and I will soon find the evidence to prove this

Thank You Dopplegangman (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are looking for evidence for unsourced claims this man does this while removing sourced things

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sikh/comments/16ce2hl/here_is_more_proof_that_suthasianhistorian8_is/

any search of this man’s name online shows his disruptiveness you need to investigate him Dopplegangman (talk) 16:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• The response in relation to the publication year of the Bhagavad Gita is a pretty clear CIR issue, whether with respect to the alternate source proferred, or the ludicrous claim that oldest manuscript dates back to 1492. Britannica dates it to the 1st or 2nd century CE ([161]), and our own article cites several academic sources detailing robust discussion over when it was published, with dates ranging form 500 BCE to ~ 800 CE. There's room to argue that our presentation in the lead of that article may be lacking, but Dopplegangman's baseline assertion here is absurd, and their admission that they don't know how to cite sources properly is a nonstarter. The apparent offsite canvassing of complaints against Suthasianhistorian8, rather than bolstering Dopplegangman's case, undermines it, as do the repeated accusations of lying this discussion and elsewhere. I think a topic ban from South Asian topics is warranted, and would have already imposed it myself in my capacity as an uninvolved administrator had Dopplegangman appropriately been made aware of WP:CTOPS prior to this incident. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  the oldest manuscript of the bhagavad gita that is still in tact and together dates back to 1492and is kept in the Bodleian Library, Oxford I didn't state that this is true or that this is the only reasonable explanation but it is an idea shared by people and kept together with evidence to support this theory so I thought this would be reasonable to add it to the wiki page to help people come to there own idea about what is true this is the reason to have a wiki page to spread truth and help people come to their own ideas about topics with the help of evidnce.to the claim I knew how to add sources before this incident is untrue you cannot prove it and even if you could I was using visual editing on my phone where I think you cannot add sources using this Dopplegangman (talk) 17:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  This edit does not inspire hopes of competence, whether looking at source quality or to the extent that the added text flows with the rest of the pre-existing text. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  So because I can’t edit Wikipedia sources that well I’m incompetent is that incompetent for a new user or is it incompetent for a man to devote his life to internet edits and waste his limited time on earth or is it incompetent for an old user to point out mistakes by a new user not to help them out but to make an unneeded comment.take a look at yourself your a full time Wikipedia editor with no life Dopplegangman (talk) 19:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, please calm down with the personal attacks. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 19:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• I have blocked Dopplegangman for two weeks for disruptive editing in general, and personal attacks and harassment in particular. Telling other editors to "get a job" and criticizing them for the amount of time they spend volunteering to build the most comprehensive encyclopedia in history is way out of line. Cullen328 (talk) 20:23, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  The with no life insult directly above is particularly egregious. Cullen328 (talk) 20:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm stepping back from taking any admin actions here due to the PAs, but I will note that I still stand by my call for a topic ban in addition to the above block, and that it is now within an admin's CTOPS discretion to unilaterally impose that sanction, as the diff I linked came after the receipt of a CTOPS notice. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:16, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support site ban or indef block per the Reddit posts from 4 months ago (linked above) which is off-wiki harassment, not just canvassing. Add in the the personal attacks, POV pushing, the substantive CIR and lack of sufficient English fluency... a tban or two-week block is not enough. Mostly though because of the off-wiki harassment, that should be a zero-tolerance insta-indef. Levivich (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support indef block per above. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 21:29, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• The next block (which will likely be required in 15 days!) should be indefinite. I had blocked this user for three days and immediately after that block expired they got back to more disruption. Don't think we need to debate topic or site bans, this is a combination of NOTHERE and CIR that should just get an indefinite block. As for the reddit posts, most of India related content suffers from off-wiki canvassing on Reddit/Quora/Twitter etc, nothing new there.—SpacemanSpiff 23:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support indef block or site ban: personal attacks, assuming bad faith, off-wiki canvassing, conflict of interest, original research, demonstrably false information, lack of competence in the English language; and I'm just naming things that the user demonstrated in this thread alone. The previous block ended with no change in behaviour, time for an indef block or site ban. Can't have these people here. JM (talk) 00:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Because I actually have a life off-Wikipedia, I have been inactive for about five hours. Based on the additional discussion since then, I have changed the block term to indefinite. Cullen328 (talk) 02:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

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Legal threat by OCTMGH

Legal threat made here. Warned to recant but ignored. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 12:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that the legal threat is problematic, I will note that this discussion was opened only 9 minutes after the WP:NLT warning was given. I'd allow a bit more time for the user to respond. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@WikiDan61: They made two further comments on their talk page since the warning even threatening to "deal with it outside Wikipedia" which still feels like a veiled legal threat. ThaddeusSholto (talk) 13:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I've blocked them. Any uninvolved admin may undo the block after the legal threat has been withdrawn. Isabelle Belato ^🏳‍🌈 13:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Altynordu

Altynordu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Another classical case of a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:NOTHERE user editing in Azerbaijan/Armenia/Iran related articles.

Since 20 February 2023‎ (yes, almost a year), they have been edit warring at Arkhalig through IPs and this account, trying to add the unsourced "Azerbaijani" into the caption of a random dancer [162] [163] [164] [165] [166] [167] [168] [169] [170] [171] [172]

Because of their edits there, I just told them that they were not allowed to edit in articles related to Armenia and Azerbaijan, as the editing area is under a community imposed extended-confirmed restriction, and their number of edits was below the threshold for editing in the area. This led to an angry rant and attack; "...It’s clear you have certain nationalistic, personal biases and iranist views so don’t come here talking about edit warring which you also have been a part in. The 2 editors who have changed it from Azerbaijani dancer to 19th century dancer is you an Iranian and KhndzorUtogh an Armenian what a coincidence don’t you think? When trying to spread facts instead of some delusion which you two are doing I get shut down. But I can also rapport you for the same reason." --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Casually decided to left out the part where I said: “I’m not talking about Azerbaijani-Armenian conflict as stated in the page about community imposed restrictions. “Politics, ethnic relations, and conflicts involving Armenia, Azerbaijan,” Where does me clarifying the ethnicity of the dancer fit into any three of these categories.” Altynordu (talk) 14:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I left "..." to indicate there was info before that, it was obviously left out to only highlight the attack. Arkhalig is a traditional dress worn by both Armenians and Azeris, fits with "ethnic relations" pretty well, but I'm not sure what this has to do with your conduct. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

No it doesn’t. Ethnic relations is the study of social, political and economic relations between ethnicities. Not cultural as in the sharing of a clothing piece. You seem to be misinformed. Altynordu (talk) 16:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Pretty sure a clothing shared by two ethnic groups fits well under "ethnic relations". And you need to stop being condescending towards other people, telling them that they are "misinformed", "do me a favour and read up on history" [173] and so on. It can't be right that you can't make a single comment without taking at least some sort of dig at someone. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Everyone can be misinformed. No one in the world knows exactly everything. Why do you think I’m attacking you when I’m not. And no you can go to the wiki page about ethnic relations and see for yourself as I said in my previous reply it’s the study of social, political and economic relations between ethnicities. Not cultural ones. Altynordu (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

True, but keep it to yourself, no one is interested in hearing what you think about others. And "ethnic relations" does not mean study of social, political and economic relations between ethnicities..(the article you're referring to Sociology of race and ethnic relations...another thing). Also, WP:GS/AA says broadly construed. The fact Altynordu tries to justify their actions further show that they are WP:NOTHERE. I fail to see how they're a networth to this site. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

So I can’t call out someone if they’re spreading misinformation? I don’t think anything about you I just said you were misinformed. Why are you trying to make it to something bigger than it is. And ethnic relations means exactly what I said in my previous reply you can even google it. And the article I referred to is sociology of race and Ethnic relations. Instead of admitting that you are wrong you keep attacking me, but I don’t see the point in arguing with you if you want to take every little word I say as an insult then you do you. I’m not trying to be insulting or disrespectful. I’m just trying to make the page more informative and clear Altynordu (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Regardless of the WP:GS/AA issue and the potential IP socking, Altynordu's edits on Arkhalig are clearly disruptive. M.Bitton (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Support indef block per the evidence presented. Assuming bad faith, personal attacks, edit warring, original research. JM (talk) 00:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruptiveness by Suthasianhistorian8

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There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.~~ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Suthasianhistorian8

any research into this man’s history over Wikipedia shows many vandalism and disruptive claims by other Wikipedia users https://www.reddit.com/r/Sikh/comments/16ce2hl/here_is_more_proof_that_suthasianhistorian8_is/

please research into this Dopplegangman (talk) 16:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Look into this man’s archives on his talk page User:Suthasianhistorian8

he is a know offender Dopplegangman (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

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Frenchl

Frenchl (talk · contribs)

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1135#User:Frenchl
• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1143#User:Smasongarrison

This is a long-term disruptive editor - their talk page is littered with warnings, template or otherwise, for disruptive editing, and their conduct has been raised twice before at ANI.

They have an apparent current obsession with editing French footballers, in the context of nationality, making edits like this and this, often 'supported' by questionable sources, adding inappropriate nationality categories to people with acquired citizenship or those with citizenship through descent.

So, in the Vandam example, he is a French footballer who also has (apparently) Ghanaian citizenship, as his parents are from the country. It is right to call him a 'French footballer' - it is incorrect to describe him as a 'Ghanaian footballer', even though he is a footballer with Ghanaian citizenship.

Out of a soccer context, it would be like calling Steven Seagal a 'Russian actor' or 'Serbian martial artist' because he also has those citizenships. I hope that makes sense!

The issue has been raised multiple times, by multiple editors - see User talk:Frenchl#Ethnicity in categories and User talk:Frenchl#Sourcing categories and User talk:Frenchl#Djima Oyawolé, all to no avail.

I therefore propose a topic ban for Frenchl, construed widely, related to the addition, removal, or amendment of wording or categories related to nationality or citizenship. GiantSnowman 20:21, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you serious ? Vandam is Ghanaian since 1988, French since 2000, how can you say he is not Ghanaian ? Frenchl (talk) 20:28, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

While he has both nationalities, he was born and lives in France and plays for French teams. In any case, this is a content dispute and appears to have been discussed several times already, and it is best to focus on the behavioral issue than on the content issue itself, even though both are still obviously linked. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 20:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

He was born Ghanaian, became French 12 years later. Invisibilising his Ghanaian nationality is discriminatory and that's not how WP:FOOTY works at all. Frenchl (talk) 20:45, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I expect an apology from Giantsnowman. His behaviour as an administrator has been problematic for a very long time. Frenchl (talk) 20:56, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

You should not expect one, because he is absolutely correct, as any persual of your talk page will indicate - you have been here 6 months, and there are a dozen or more issues there on issues with your nationality editing - this has been problematic for a significant length of time, and you need to stop doing it. In the July 2023 ANI report linked above you only escaped a sanction because you stopped being disruptive, and now you are doing it again. My constructive advice to you would be to stop edits that impinge on the nationalities of players (and anyone else, especially BLPs), and get on with something more useful. Black Kite (talk) 21:44, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

And yet Frenchl persists in making these edits. GiantSnowman 21:47, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I would support such a ban. My repeated attempts to undo the damage they did after a mass removal of nationality categories and attempts at a discussion about nationality categories resulted in them bringing me to ANI (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1143#User:Smasongarrison) over it?! Mason (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Also is it possible for someone to close that discussion? Mason (talk) 00:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

It's more than closed, it's archived. JM (talk) 01:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! That's helpful/reassuring Mason (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Comment. Frenchl has been here for 6 months and has more than seven thousand edits already? That is impressive! I think we need to get reassurances from @Frenchl: that they will try their best in reading and applying the consensus policy in their edits and discussions. Maybe some sort of probation for 6 months before imposing a topic ban or block? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 06:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

We have a very similar rule of thumb in dealing with dual-citizenship in ice hockey bios: that what a player chooses, which national teams he plays for, where he lives and (potentially) where he votes are the determining factors. We could just as well say to you that "invisibling" (WHT?) this player's French nationality is discriminatory. Ravenswing 00:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

So why is Sebastian Ylönen categorized as a Finnish ice hockey player ? Frenchl (talk) 00:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The article describes him as French, but he is categorized as both a French and Finnish player. Which should probably be the case in all cases of multiple citizenship like this, as it would be better than the status quo. But if it's done against consensus, then I suppose it would be considered problematic (hence this ANI?) JM (talk) 01:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Here is a proof from Ghanaian government that Jerry Van Dam, whose nickname, by the way, is Ghanaboy, and who holidays in Ghana every summer, had a postal address in Nsawam, Ghana, in 2012: [174] (p.1362)

What's more, when he started playing football, he was only a Ghanaian footballer, having only acquired French nationality at the age of 12. Frenchl (talk) 01:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with you that he's Ghanian, you don't have to prove anything to me. But you yourself say he has (acquired) French nationality. Maybe your issue is that he's not ethnically French, but I would assume that the categories refer to legal nationality i.e., citizenship, not ethnicity. Given he is legally of both Ghanian and French citizenship, he would be in both categories if we are to follow Ylönen as a standard. But I that's a content issue, not an ANI issue. JM (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I am referring solely to legal nationality as defined by the United Nations, I'm not interested in ethnicity here. Although on social networks, in his bio, the player first uses the Ghanaian flag and only then the French flag, I don't have a problem with the fact that he's only described as French in the text. It's the absence of his Ghanaian nationality in the categories that bothers me. There may be some subjectivity in the text, but the categories have to be objective, I think. Frenchl (talk) 02:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

We are getting distracted here - this is not a content issue, it's a behaviour issue. The fact that Frenchl continues to argue here speaks volumes. GiantSnowman 18:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and reverting

@LLC226699 User tends to make unsourced changes or changes with not reliable sources , reverting already reverted edits and other edits multiple times without discussion. Not replying or discussing anything about the subject , and not explaining the reason behind changes. Not responsive in the talk page while being active. Made edits in List of equipment of the Turkish Land Forces page. Can you do something about please ? IR-TheFirstSoldier (talk) 22:02, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive IP range

2601:183:4B82:E70:0:0:0:0/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) has been repeatedly removing talk page comments from Talk:WTIC-FM with no explanation, and has done so again despite a final warning. They have also been persistently restoring their (often unsourced) changes to Connecticut road articles. As is required, I have notified the most recent IP, 2601:183:4b82:e70:7c8c:2358:4392:1613 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 23:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Oops, they shifted to ‎2601:183:4b82:e70:d05d:9ef7:a423:9b63 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log) before I could post. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 23:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

I blocked 2601:183:4B00:0:0:0:0:0/40 for a week. Next time, please ask for assistance before reverting more than three times. Let me know if problems continue. Johnuniq (talk) 04:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Personal attacks after running out of reverts

Βατο (talk · contribs) is making personal attacks here [175] Now I have enough experience to realize your contribution in Wikipedia is just disruptive editing. And I will not waste more time with you here. I'll expand the article and summarize later its content in the lede. And your disruption, as always, will be trivial. It sounds like he is basically announcing his intent to edit-war without further discussion. Any help in dealing with this would be greatly appreciated. Khirurg (talk) 01:03, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I am not announcing an intent to edit-war without discussion, I stated that I'll expand the article with sources, and then summarise its content in the lede. As for the "disruption", you removed sourced content from the lead section keeping only one of the two academic views on the subject of the article without proper explanation. You have already tried it, unsuccessfully, in several articles before. – Βατο (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I have explained everything regarding the content in the talkpage and anyone can see that. But your comment is very much a personal attack and needs to be brought to the community's attention. Khirurg (talk) 01:25, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The only explanation you gave is this one [176]: The lede should be neutral and not promote one narrative over another. That he was an "Illyrian chieftain" is just one hypothesis. There are others as well. By making "Illyrian" the seventh word in the article, you are promoting one narrative over another. That is the very definition of POV-pushing. which actually is in contradiction with your edit because you removed only one of the two academic views on the subject of the article, and which includes also aspersions of POV pushing when that's not the case at all. – Βατο (talk) 01:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I reverted your edit because I thought it promoted one narrative over another. I stand by that. The issue here is your absolutely uncollaborative and downright contemptuous response. Let me remind you that collaboration is one of the five pillars of wikipedia and is not "optional". Khirurg (talk) 01:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Which is your "collaboration"? The removal of one of the two competing academic views on the subject of the article? As per WP:NPOV: "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus." – Βατο (talk) 02:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, NPOV is not negotiable, and the text I removed was the opposite of NPOV Sirras or Sirrhas (Template:Lang-grc; d. 390 BC) was either an Illyrian chieftain by making the word "Illyrian" the seventh word to appear in the lede, even though all sources state that this individual's ancestry is disputed. But the issue is not the content, but your contemptuous, uncollaborative behavior. There is also the earlier attempt by you to intimidate another editor by placing a bogus 3RR-warring tag on their talkpage [177], even though the user had only one revert (same as you). The issue here is your behavior, about which you haven't shown the slightest hint of self-reflection. Khirurg (talk) 03:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

The description: [Sirras] was either an Illyrian chieftain or a prince-regent of Lynkestis is what bibliography support. You removed the Illyrian affiliation and kept the Lynkestian one, breaking the WP:Neutral point of view of the lead sentence. The breaking of one of the pillars of Wikipedia, which is a 'non-negotiable' policy, can be labelled as "distruption". – Βατο (talk) 03:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Do you really believe an admin would "deal with this"? There is nothing an admin can do apart from telling you to open an RfC to sort out your content disputes through community input. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:16, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  I am continuing to discuss in the talkpage, but when one user announces they are done discussing, we have a problem, and admin intervention is necessary. Khirurg (talk) 03:36, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: I completely understand Bato’s frustration here. Khirurg and I are regularly engaged in content disputes across a number of articles revolving around Albanians and Greeks, and he has even followed me around on pages revolving around Albanian articles that have nothing to do with Greece (by that, I mean articles which he has never edited on or shown interest in). There is a lot of back and forth, incivility, bad blood etc, and I think it is double-standards for Khirurg to report another editor for personal attacks. To help paint himself as a victim even though he treats fellow editors with much incivility and disrespect, he also created a collection of what he calls taunts.
• I get Bato’s frustration at Khirurg’s history of disruptive behaviour on articles. There is evidence of him reverting me on articles just for the sake of it, such as here [178], where it was apparent that he didn’t read the source and just RV’ed for the sake of it. After that, I opened up a TP discussion, where he admitted that the source was falsified in the past [179] but he clearly hadn’t checked up until that discussion despite the reverts. Another noteworthy example of Khirurg reverting me without looking at the sources (or intentionally falsifying content, that's the only alternative) can be found here [180], and I brought it to his attention both in the edit summary and my subsequent comments on the TP [181][182]. This type of disruptive behaviour can be really obstructive at times and is definitely not done in WP:GOODFAITH, as source falsification and reverting for the sake of reverting are not actions associated with good faith editing. Khirurg would seem to have a natural disposition towards opposing particular editors that they continuously come into conflict with, or opposing content revolving around Albanians - I am not sure why this is, but I completely understand Bato’s frustration. I hope admins are made aware of the type of disruptive behaviour that Khirurg regularly exhibits that would’ve provoked Bato into writing what they did. It’s not even that much of a personal attack, it’s an honest observation of his behaviour on certain articles. Botushali (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  WP:STALK, WP:ASPERSIONS. Nothing new here, just the usual stalking and smearing. 3 kb of text at that. Also pretty rich coming from someone with a 3 month block [183]. Khirurg (talk) 06:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Interesting reaction from someone who is currently reporting another user for personal attacks… Botushali (talk) 06:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Finally Khirurg got the point [184] and restored one of the two academic views. But how much time was wasted for it? How much discomfort he provoced to other editors? As explained by Botushali above from his own experience, this behavior by Khirurg is not something new. I've experienced it for a long time now. Many of his reverts definitely are not necessary at all. As are the walls of text produced in article's talk pages just for a revert made by him, who often contributes to the article with little or nothing other than the revert itself. Also in this case, at the end of the day, my remark and your disruption, as always, will be trivial went as expected. – Βατο (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Unfortunately, the disruption by you is far from trivial [185]. This is completely undue in the section heading and there isn't a single wikipedia article where an individual's (disputed) ethnicity is included in the section heading. It is deplorable that every attempt at compromise is derided and mocked, and leads to even more egregious POV-pushing. Khirurg (talk) 17:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  Why are you talking about individual's (disputed) ethnicity? No ethnicity is included in that section heading. That section is all about the widely supported theory of the identification of Sirras with the Illyrian chieftain who participated in the Peloponnesian war. You cannot omit the 'Illyrian chieftain' label in the heading of that section, because the entire section is based on that. You see POV where there is no POV at all. But a possible simple solution to your concern is to reword it "as a Chieftain of the Illyrian army", not to completely remove it, because it is an information essential for the description of that section. – Βατο (talk) 18:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  It's not "essential" at all, unless the goal is to push POV. It's possible, but far from certain, that he is the Illyrian chieftain that participated in the Peloponnesian war. The section heading should be neutral, and that's non-negotiable. Whether he is the Illyrian chieftain is to be discussed in the body text, not in the section heading. Unless of course, the goal is to just make the word "Illyrian" as prominent as possible at the expense of neutrality. Khirurg (talk) 18:20, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  The scholars' theory illustrated in that section is "Sirras was the Illyrian chieftain who participated in the Peloponnesian War". You have to find a neutral wording to provide the full description of that theory. If you omit some parts, it is not the scholars' theory. – Βατο (talk) 18:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  The hypothesis of some scholars is that Sirras was possibly the Illyrian chieftain that participated in the Peloponnesian war. Explaining that is what the text of the section is for, not the section heading. I am confident no neutral wikipedia users will back the heading you are proposing. Khirurg (talk) 18:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Intentional harrassment by Hemiauchenia

Hemiauchenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I am bringing this here at the offending editor's specific suggestion. Said editor has been posting a series of personal attacks with the tone of trying to harass a fellow editor off of the site.

• you're the kind of low quality editor that Wikipedia needs to weed out. I suggest you stop whining and stop wasting the time of contributors who are far more valuable to the encyclopedia than yourself.
• It's not discrimination, it's called taking out the trash.
• You have nothing valuable to contribute to this website, and I suggest you find something better to do with your life.

Nat Gertler (talk) 05:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

This was an editor that was arguing that a medical textbook was not a reliable source. Their few other edits include additions that completely fail WP:MEDRS e.g. their additions to Banisteriopsis caapi back in 2018 What is one to say to an editor that can't respect basic WP:RS policy? Such editors are not useful encyclopedic contributors. You've redacted the comments and I don't plan to restore them, and I consider that the end of the matter. Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

If one cannot respond without violating WP:NPA and engaging in harassment, there is the option of not saying anything at all. That you feel that such conduct is not actionable and that you deem it appropriate to continue such attacks on this noticeboard only makes it more vital to make it clear otherwise. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 06:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In one of your comments you asked What's the point of respectfully discussing with people like you who don't respect basic Wikipedia policies like Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) or Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Failure_or_refusal_to_"get_the_point"? Does this same logic apply to people who don't respect basic Wikipedia policies like Wikipedia:Civility and Wikipedia:No personal attacks? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Look, I accept that I could have been less hostile (and it probably would have been better to do so) and I do not object to NG's redactions, but my view that this user was a disruptive editor who didn't respect basic Wikipedia policies remains. I've struckthrough all comments I made in the discussion if this helps. Hemiauchenia (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I wrote out this long rant but deleted it. TLDR: Hemi was right, you took the wrong editor to ANI. Levivich (talk) 06:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yup. It is a simple, demonstrable fact that Wikipedia routinely 'weeds out' contributors who demonstrate the abject failure and/or refusal to understand how Wikipedia works that was being exemplified in the WP:BLPN discussion. And given that it is necessary to do, so, one cannot reasonably describe a suggestion that it be done in such an obvious case as 'harassment'. Being told this is no doubt unpleasant to those on the receiving end, but we aren't here to hand out free hugs and candy floss... AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:08, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

It's absolutely possible to tell an editor they're not editing constructively without referring to it as taking out the trash and other language like this. Civility is still a policy, and it doesn't mean hand[ing] out free hugs and candy floss. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 08:10, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the civility policy could be rebranded as reinforcement learning for civil POV pushing. I think that might be where it has had its greatest success. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• This noticeboard is for "urgent incidents and chronic, unmanageable behavioral problems". Is the OP suggesting something here rises to that level, or is this an isolated incident? Bon courage (talk) 09:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Hemiauchenia has 48,409 edits and has improved 1000s of articles. NatGertler has 40,667 edits and has improved 1000s of articles. Maybe Hemiauchenia didn't use the best language but their message was accurate. I really do not get why experienced users feel the need to report each other or infight when the real issue are accounts with no productive edits on this website causing trouble. This account here is the real issue [186] they have been disrupting the John McDougall article when their edits were reverted they filed a false complaint on the Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard ‎claiming a book doesn't include the word fad diet even though that very term is in the title. After they lost that discussion, Now they are back on the talk-page of the article writing nonsense. It's obvious this account won't give up on their crusade. In a few days or a week's time we may be back here at this noticeboard talking about them. As above the wrong editor was taken to ANI here. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:59, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  This "experienced user" greatly decreased his Wikipedia involvement because not just of the culture of harassment, but because of the culture here at ANI which has judged harassment to be just fine if it comes from an experienced user (I have slipped back into the habit lately, but will likely be pulling that back._ If the WP:NPA is only meant to be no-personal-attacks-except-against-those-we-think-aren't-very-good-editors, then it should be rebranded as such, but until such is done, WP:BRIE still applies. Does the other editor need to get attention as well? Possibly, and you are free to do something about it, but there is nothing that says that both editors can't be in the wrong. Hemiauchenia originally blew off concern about his actions and said that I should bring him here, which is when I did so; that he has since pedaled back, admitted that some of his speech was improper (even if at times half-heartedly) is to be recognized and if he makes some statement that he would watch it in the future, would probably now be sufficient... but none of that should be taken as backing the idea that personal attacks intended to drive someone off of the site are not a "real issue". -- Nat Gertler (talk) 17:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• I propose that this be closed with no action against Hemiauchenia. Anyone is free to remind them of the need for civility in dealing with people who do not meet our requirements, but it seems that there is no need to as the editor has already acknowledged that. Yes, Hemiauchenia could and probably should have worded things a bit differently, but I see nothing remotely blockworthy. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• This report fails to recognise the aggressive tone that was being used by the person Hemiauchenia was addressing - neither party was blameless here. I do not believe that any action is necessary, but I would advise Hemiauchenia that even if the other party is being aggressive, belligerent, or just sealioning, resorting to snide remarks does nothing to enhance your argument, and often ends up with threads like this one getting started. Don't try to score points - you can avoid handing people a stick to beat you with if you are able to keep your interactions dispassionate. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:55, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

User:Summerdays1 and WP:HOUNDING

Summerdays1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been inserting unnecessary, trivial, and deliberately unconstructive edits on pages out of bad-faith on pages by singling out ones I've contributed to and edit-warring them in. On 25 December and 26 December, they restored WP:BOOSTER material I removed then moved onto pages I either recently edited, substantially contributed to, or promoted to GA Status, starting with the judge Elizabeth Branch then John Hart Ely, Dumas Malone, Quintin Johnstone and Joshua Katz, and continued with my more recent pages (all listed on their user log). These pages are wholly unrelated to the pages they've previously edited except the fact that they are the ones I've substantially contributed to.

User:Summerdays1 has made it clear that his edits are meant to be obstructive and in bad-faith. After reaching out on my talk page, he left a message that he later covertly deleted and followed it up:

To begin, are you able to show me places where you either made mistakes on here or where you learned something? You give the impression that you know something or more than most. I doubt you even know as much as I do.Summerdays1 (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Apparently you won't listen to me so I'll find an admin. You are a "wrecking ball"; if you feel you need to crusade "one man style" to remove information from colleges and "justifying it" with the few same Wikipedia principles... I'll point out that you have been reverted numerous times going back more than a year. I agree some university pages have "fluff". You aren't trying to correct stuff. You're removing too much material and you don't even attempt to remedy or fix articles. Be pro-active and less reactive. You damage this site and it has to end.Summerdays1 (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Then they've reached out to editors to WP:CANVASS, and the messages show the same pattern. First to Rrsimone, then to admin Favonian:

Guardian H has edited articles for about a year in political thought, judicial, and college topics. This user has been heavily reverted at times (Boethius, etc.) and still does not seek consensus or adapt in any fashion.
I saw you are bilingual, cool. I will guess you can understand these nuances, perspectives, and topics. As I told GH no one I know is pro-boosterism. At the same time left unchecked, GH will wreak holy havoc on any academic article they see.Summerdays1 (talk) 19:58, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

User:Summerdays1 has not gone out to try and reach any sort of consensus on the pages I contributed to nor even to try to build a consensus on the pages regarding higher education. I've reverted some of these edits; as of today, they have reverted them back. They aren't here to improve articles and no longer here to build an encyclopedia. GuardianH (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Also, I previously warned User:Summerdays1 about edit-warring, but they promptly removed that notice today from their talk page. GuardianH (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a repost from my previous message, which got archived, since problems persist. GuardianH (talk) 06:47, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Arguably just this message alone deserves a block of some length. Then there's the blatant canvassing. Summerdays1 clearly deserves some form of block. On the other hand, I am sceptical of the WP:HOUNDING claims. The supposed WP:BOOSTER material that Summerdays1 re-added doesn't seem to actually be booster material at all. The claim, The institution has been ranked 200–300 in the world as one of the best universities, doesn't appear to be BOOSTER. Bar the first sentence in the Yale edit, the content appears to be acceptable. The rest of the edits listed as supposed hounding all seem to be good-faith minor edits that generally make sense. Unless I'm missing something obvious, GuardianH's edits seem to be plain bad faith. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 04:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@JML1148 Summerdays1 said pretty explicitly that I damage this site and it has to end and that I will wreak holy havoc on any academic article. It's hard to see these edits under innocuous summaries as something other than with the aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress (WP:HOUNDING) to provoke a response from me, making them in bad-faith. Why else would they go from singer and songwriters to higher education and legal academics? GuardianH's edits seem to be plain bad faith - I don't see how my edits are bad-faith when I have no agenda against universities in cleaning up boosterism. GuardianH (talk) 05:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@GuardianH: Summerdays1 said pretty explicitly that I damage this site and it has to end and that I will wreak holy havoc on any academic article. I'm not denying that Summerdays1's conduct has been unacceptable, they clearly need to be punished for their blatant violation of WP:CANVASS and WP:CIV. Why else would they go from singer and songwriters to higher education and legal academics? People are allowed to change what articles they edit. Even if they are choosing to solely edit articles that you have had been substantially involved in, the edits in question appear to minor copyedits that appear to be generally positive changes, such as fixing minor grammatical mistakes and clearer language. As I have previously said, I don't see any evidence of Summerdays1 re-adding booster content or hounding you. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@JML1148 Sorry, I was being unclear. A lot of the edits are were not constructive and added, rather than removed, errors:

• Spelling mistakes, reckless formatting mistakes, and grammar mistakes ( [187] [188] [189] [190] [191] [192] [193] [194] [195] [196] [197])
• Erroneous material ([198] [199])
• Readded boosterism ([200])

These edits made the quality of writing in the article worse and were made without knowledge of citation placements, code format, etc., which is especially frustrating for the articles I worked to write and promote to GA status. Basically, when they said that I damage this site and it has to end and then went and undid/reverted my edits on articles — thats bad-faith editing with the intent to hound. GuardianH (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@GuardianH: I must apologise. There are some actual improvements in the series of edits, however many of them contain obvious spelling mistakes and downgrades to the article. On face value, they seem relatively normal edits, but on a more thorough read, it's rather obvious that they are subversive minor edits that, on a cursory read - like I initially did - appear innocent. Indeed, all of the articles that they have done this to are ones that you have extensively edited. Separate from all of these issues, Summerdays1 appears to be practising a unique type of WP:ICHY, that comes down to, 'ignore the problem and it will eventually go away'. They removed Liz's comment asking them to comment on this page. I believe an indef ban on Summerdays1 is the best option. JML1148 ^{(talk | contribs)} 08:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

No worries. I, of course, support your view. GuardianH (talk) 06:12, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I've taken this out of the archives since problems persist. This is the second time I've had to take it out from being archived by the bot; it would be good if an admin could deal with the issue as it's been a while now. GuardianH (talk) 06:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• I just picked through most of a dozen of the problem links provided, and found that some of his editing is a bit of a problem, the booster stuff, some external websites that don't belong, but I think the reason that this is getting archived, twice now, is that you are overstating the problem. This seems to be a personality issue as much as an editing issue. For instance, in the claim "Arguably just this message alone deserves a block of some length. [201]" you give a bad link. I go down to the last part that has his comments and don't see anything block worth at the end of the page. Frankly, he IS making some mistakes (nothing drastic, but they are editing mistakes, not behavior mistakes). You guys aren't doing a great job explaining it to a new user either. I'm not prepared to do anything at this stage, except advise you guys to be just a little more patient and explain why he is wrong. You seem to be right on the merits, but wrong on the delivery with a new user. I'm not ready to block someone because they are mistaken. And Summerdays1, you might also try to pull back just a bit and listen. They are telling you some worthwhile things, although not very eloquently, and on the whole, they are more "correct" than you are here. There is a lot of leeway in editing, but there are some guidelines we try to stick to, to keep articles from sounding like booster pages, for instance. We don't claim a school is a "top school", for instance. We *might* say "$x school was ranked by Time Magazine as the #1 school for music(source)". We use top quality sources, and use THEIR VOICE, not our voice. We don't make the claim.... we just document the fact that the source made the claim. These are all fixable errors. Now lets go edit and let this be archived. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 09:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  @Dennis Brown What we discussed was that the edits weren't mistakes — they were deliberate and unconstructive, based on what Summerdays1 said themself. Apologies for the bad links, I've re-organized them below:

  • 2 violations of WP:CANVASS [202][203]
  • Intent to WP:HOUND [204] [205]
  • Removal of edit warring notice [206]
  • Removal of ANI notice [207]
  • Second removal of ANI notice placed by @Liz [208]
  • Possible personal attack (taunting me on my talk page) [209]
  • Personal attack [210] (Apparently you won't listen to me so I'll find an admin. You are a "wrecking ball"; You damage this site and it has to end)

  I have already listed some of his edits in my previous message — they proceeded to go on pages I've worked on and either reverted my edits or continued to make edits out of bad-faith that downgraded the articles. This is not to say that all of the edits made were totally unconstructive, but most were. A list of those are too extensive to place in the thread but here's a list of those edits.

  Me and @JML1148 discussed that the above constitutes disruptive behavior. It warrants a block, especially also given that they've ignored all the warnings. GuardianH (talk) 11:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Draft:The Car Accident Lawyers

This weird concoction Draft:The Car Accident Lawyers, presumably just ADMASQ, keeps being created by IP users, all sharing the same ISP and creating the same content, so clearly one individual or a small group. I've requested the title to be salted, which should (hopefully) put an end to it, but they're now also spamming AFCHD. Their earlier IPv4 range (47.11.206.1 etc.) has been blocked for a week by HJ Mitchell. They've now moved to IPv6, with addresses (so far)

• 2409:40E1:1F:102C:10E3:69FF:FE53:A0E6
• 2409:40E1:26:2FA9:D815:28FF:FEB0:DC68
• 2409:40E1:CD:8728:8080:CFFF:FED9:352F

Could these be blocked as well, please?

(I have notified one, but only one, of the IPs of this discussion, pointless as that probably was.)

Thanks, --DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Disruption of articles

This user Any mail have been disrupting and removing sourced contents in articles, he has been warned by many editors but still continue the same thing.examples: [211][212][213][214][215][216] [217] removed restored content [218] deleted the article[219] [220][221][222] and many more.I hope care will be taken quickly. Yotrages (talk) 15:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Ignoring policy, Westall UFO

LuckyLouie & Rjjiii have repeatedly reverted into the article information which is prohibited by OR. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 17:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Bishonen applied a block to my editing at Westall UFO when constructive Talks were continuing between myself and Rjjiii in response to the needs of policy. This has caused the problems of OR with the article to be maintained within the article. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 17:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussions are here, from 3 January 2024 Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 17:47, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

LuckyLouie & Rjjiii are now both propounding "Skeptoid" as a source, but I have already indicated ("Dunning investigation/verification" in Talk) the proofs of this reference having obvious errors within it which would discount it's use. Both editors are obviously biased against the existence of any UFO other than there being some rational explanation for the event, as is shown at Talk:Westall UFO#Sources. Their position currently therefore isn't Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 17:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

No. You are simply wrong, and Bishonen was perfectly justified in taking that action. Your talk was not constructive. The neutral point of view is that the existence of any UFO other than there being some rational explanation for the event is impossible, even if we don't know what that rational explanation is. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:09, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In the first instance and to re-iterate, the problem is OR. You state your opinion I state to you in reply, the problem is OR in the article. That is why I opened the discussion here. What is your response specifically and only, firstly, to the problem that I indicated? Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 18:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Both editors are obviously biased against the existence of any UFO other than there being some rational explanation for the event is not a violation of NPOV, it is clearly following WP:FRINGE policy. The filer, on the other hand... Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I already indicated no-one is propounding a theory, the suggestion of UFO is within the idea of fringe theory, but there aren't any theoreticians present to state theory. This is observable at Talk:Westall UFO 8 January 2024 "Your question necessitates that it is a fringe theory". That is what I found, it isn't my opinion without giving reasons so stating you disgree without discussing the sources isn't a reason, it is just an opinion that you think I am wrong. I would like to be convinced that other editors are correct and I am wrong, but no-one is providing evidence from the sources, whi explictly details how I am wrong, in discussion of the sources. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 18:39, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Please note: there is an extensive discussion on the fringe theories noticeboard of the issue over which I page-blocked Simpul skitsofreeneea. Bishonen | tålk 18:17, 10 January 2024 (UTC).

And Timeline of schizophrenia is a fringe theory, amd I am a fringe theory, for the article and my username to be discussed there under that heading? Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

What..? I just noticed that Simpul skitsofreeneea has now further forumshopped the Westall UFO issue to WP:NORN. Simpul skitsofreeneea, you are seriously wasting your own time as well as everybody else's. Please stay at one board! (The FTN discussion is by a comfortable margin the oldest.) Bishonen | tålk 18:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC).

Trying to continue their arguments here, since they're blocked from the article and its talk page, is simply continuing the disruption. Simpul's talk page indicates that they've had issues in multiple topic areas. I think they have good intentions, but their response on their talk page about passive smoking and their comments on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of schizophrenia are so idiosyncratic that I question whether they can adapt to Wikipedia's mores. Perhaps there's a language issue?

(I linked to pages rather than diffs because Simpul collates multiple edits into a single paragraph with timestamps interspersed.) Schazjmd (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I indicated the topic for discussion. You think the topic is me so the discussion is irrelevant. The topic is OR in the article. I provided the evidence of OR which is observable by reviewing my changes to find the same evidence that I found, or not. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 18:42, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

If editors don't think my notice here is possible, which is evidence of OR and this is the opportunity to find the proof that the article does or doesn't ccontain OR to legitimatly close this discussion: I filed this notice, not there is a discussion of whether I am someone who could file the notice, I'll have to proceed to file it to the next process in the dispute. All I ask for is observation of if or not OR exists in the article. Simpul skitsofreeneea (talk) 18:45, 10 January 2024 (UTC)