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2019 January

2018–19 United States federal government shutdown

Before I start, I really wanted to get the chance to discuss this with the closing admin before taking this here. I originally posted a week ago, and the admin has not logged in since they responded to me 5 days ago.

The following pages were moved as a result of closing:

On 11 January 2019, User:ProgrammingGeek proposed moving United States federal government shutdown of 2018–2019 to it's current spot. Following a recommendation made by User:Madrenergic, the proposal was reintroduced that same day to include all the relevant government shutdown pages. The moving of these pages was proposed to comply with a reported recent consensus which determined the year of political events should come first.

Four days later, I wrote a comment opposing the move. I made (at least what I feel are) some rather compelling arguments that still have gone unaddressed. On 18 January 2019 (about a week after the initial proposal was made), the discussion was closed.

I have read and re-read Wikipedia:Requested moves/Closing instructions#Determining consensus. I understand that no minimum amount of participation is required for a move, but that does not change that this move was treated as a vote. I would like to some further discussion through a relisting. I don't mind being told I am wrong, but the RfC cited as saying something it wasn't. It was for elections and referendums and not all political events.

I mean no ill will, but this was done in what I feel was haste. Editors from the previous RfC could have at least been invited to participate, right? ―Matthew J. Long -Talk-^☖ 01:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse (I supported the move request). I sympathize with MattLongCT's point that move discussions are not votes, but the close correctly reflected the clear overall consensus of the discussion. Dekimasuよ! 01:20, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- Dekimasu, I'll be honest (and I didn't think to address this point in the main body of the Move Review), but it still has not clear to me whether most people who said support were supporting a four digit year format or a two digit year format. Many were simply silent on the issue altogether. My thought would be that would mean they support the original four year format, no? (This is one of the other reasons I imagine a relisting could help to clarify things) ―Matthew J. Long -Talk-^☖ 01:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Invite all editors from the previous RfC to participate here. The nominator makes a hypothetical objection, the participants of the previous RfC can concretely substantiate the objection, or they may approve this as a developing consensus. Either way, hearing from them is needed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse close. The request was open the required amount of times and consensus was clear. Calidum 15:43, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - for better or for worse, we are clearly moving to a situation where years of events always go at the beginning. As such, there was clearly no policy based reason why this move should not go ahead. And the numbers in support showed a clear consensus. Looks like an uncontroversial close to me. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 19:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note - I was the original nominator, and while I'm not thrilled about the new date format, the commenters seemed pretty clear as to their preference. Maybe there wasn't a policy reason to move, but there wasn't one against. I'm pretty sure this constitutes local consensus. programmingGeek(contribs) { this.timestamp = 20:38, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(486958) 2014 MU69

The relevant naming guideline, WP:NCASTRO, states plainly "Common names should be used where these are popular or otherwise the official names." There is no doubt that "Ultima Thule," the proposed name, is the common name given its usage in recent news coverage and usage by NASA following the New Horizons flyby. This point was not contested during the recent move request.

Additionally, our policy on article titles states "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." This is one of the five naming criteria, and the only one addressed during the move request. Several supporters of the move specifically raised this point, and it was unchallenged by those opposed. In fact, some of those opposed even admitted the proposed would be more recognizable (E.g. "the public and media tend to use Ultima Thule as it's more memorable than the official designation of 2014 MU69" and "Ultima Thule is more RECOGNIZABLE in the context of the current news cycles...").

Most of the opposition is based upon Ultima Thule being a nickname and not official name. This is true, however, WP:UCRN (part of the article title policy) says "Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred." Not using the common name Ultima Thule solely because it is unofficial thus runs afoul of the policy. This is problematic, because "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. (See WP:CONLEVEL).

In my discussion with the closer, he has alluded to unspecified past precedent, something not included in his closing statement. Some of the opposition did point to Eris (dwarf planet) as a similar example, but that dwarf planet's naming took place more than 12 years ago and consensus can change.

Finally, I do acknowledge this requested move generated significant opposition (by my count it was 36 opposed against 23 in support). But I'd like to remind everyone that discussions are not a vote (and of course the aforementioned CONLEVEL). Calidum 23:28, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, dear. I did not express an opinion in the discussion and in my reading the arguments on one side were stronger than those on the other, but I cannot picture a move review resulting in anything more than another long block of text without much resolution. Dekimasuよ! 23:37, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, overturn to move per the users who cited WP:COMMONNAME and since WP:OFFICIAL does not say that Wikipedia prefers official names, contrary to the position of the opposers. Also a WP:TROUT for whoever made WP:NCASTRO say on the one hand that "Common names should be used for article names in preference to official, IAU-sanctioned names where the former are widely used" and on the other hand that "Unofficial nicknames should not be used as article titles." Dekimasuよ! 23:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn to moved Policy is absolutely clear on this matter. WP:COMMONNAME is what matters. The Oppose votes were almost all based on the often cited but incorrect assertion that we should use the WP:OFFICIALNAME for something. Consensus on Wikipedia is not assessed by vote counting, but by examining the arguments made through the lens of policy. I would have thought the closer would have taken that into account. Thanks. — Amakuru (talk) 23:43, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn – the fact that Ultima Thule is its common name wasn't even contested in the discussion – oppose voters instead appealed to its official name. COMMONNAME is what we use to name articles, and that fact is made abundantly clear at the relevant naming convention guideline. Bradv🍁 23:52, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse the closure is certainly a summary of the arguments, which has no agreement. The issue of common vs official name was certainly argued, and so there is nothing new being added in this move review. We just seem to have some people that did not like the outcome. I argued for no move. Just because some use the nick name is not stopping other sources from using the official designation MU69. we have to consider reliable sources rather than just press releases and popular press. Any use of the common name argument by the closer would be a supervote. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Common name vs official name is settled policy, so there is only one legitimate outcome when the two conflict; it's not open to argument as far as titling practice is concerned. Dekimasuよ! 00:27, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse, with a caveat. I requested the move in the first place, but I can not fault the closer making the call that the discussion yielded an absence of consensus. I do disagree with one element of the close, which is the suggestion that discussion "should reopen when the official name has been announced". Wikipedia is not bound by the schedule of the entity making that call, which, as was pointed out in the discussion, might announce a name tomorrow, or might take ten years to get around to it. Part of the dispute prompting some oppose votes was the disagreement over whether this space object is an "asteroid" or a "minor planet" or a "trans-Neptunian object" or the like. Since coverage referencing the object as "Ultima Thule" continues to grow on a daily basis, I believe that it will soon be possible to demonstrate that the space object is the primary topic for that name. If that happens before the space object-naming people have gotten around to addressing the matter, then it will be appropriate to propose to move the space object to the primary topic title. bd2412 T 00:58, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Although I !voted for move, I must regretfully Endorse here, for the move discussion did not support any other close. It is unfortunate that the two sides were talking totally past each other. Worse yet, tomorrow (or in ten years) when an official name is announced, the discussion will be the same, with the same people passionately !voting for the common name and the same others passionately for the new official name. The inevitable No Consensus will leave the title "(486958) 2014 MU69" forever. —teb728 t c 10:59, 24 January 2019 (UTC) It's like being in Washington DC;-) —teb728 t c 11:24, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Closer note: I agree that the way I closed this requested move could have been better, but still stand with my original closing of no consensus. This is because, regardless of arguments I could not see consensus for moving or not moving amongst the editors (for example one of the more vocal opposers was threatening to open a requested move to move the page back if the page was moved), even though the oppose side had weaker arguments. I will strike the bit about when the discussion should restart, as per suggestions above. I hope I have not upset anyone with my closure. If the result here is to overturn, then I will support the decision. Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 11:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As an oppose member, if an official name is decided upon, then I will wholeheartedly support a move to it. I think this will be uncontested, even by those who recognized the Ultima Thule name. I don't think a No Consensus would break out. Can't speak on behalf of that side, though. Nonetheless, glad to see that the issue of whether to move or not is being settled. I endorse the current No Consensus viewpoint of our editors. The issue will be revisited when and if appropriate. ― Дрейгорич / Dreigorich Talk 02:11, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse revised closing per WP:IAR and WP:NOTBURO, with no prejudice against a new move request within a few weeks. Calidum's reasoning is faultless, and matches the rationale of most move supporters (including myself). Nevertheless, putting my closer hat on, I need to acknowledge the broad opposition to a title change, especially because the opposing !votes increased even after the merits of WP:AT, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:OFFICIAL, WP:NCASTRO and WP:CONLEVEL were analysed and explained by previous commenters. Clearly, titling policy and guidelines would mandate "Ultima Thule" followed by some disambiguator yet to be determined (opinions were mixed about the appropriate dab among move supporters), but just as clearly there is widespread resistance to switch to a nickname that opponents consider unlikely or "impossible" to be the final object name (despite WP:CRYSTAL and WP:UCRN). My view is that opposing voices simply arguing that we should "wait for an official name" are against policy and should be discounted, but moving the page would probably have created more drama at move review, therefore I would endorse the prudent "no consensus" close per WP:IAR. Note that we might just as well say "move it per IAR", except that would actually mean "move it because we must enforce rules no matter what the community says". Hence my endorsement is rather an application of WP:NOTBURO. I commend the closer Dreamy Jazz for striking their provision to wait for an official name, and I would be willing to entertain a renewed move request within a few weeks if no official name is adopted by then. — JFG ^talk 05:31, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest rewording WP:NCASTRO to lift the ambiguity debated in this RM. ("Use common names over official names if popular" / "Do not use nicknames for asteroids") — JFG ^talk 05:31, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I made a first run at this earlier today. Dekimasuよ! 05:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, looks helpful. Further discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (astronomical objects)#Discussion at 2014 MU69, for anyone who'd like to weigh in. — JFG ^talk 19:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I was (and am) one of the opponents of the move. I do not dispute that Ultima Thule is currently the common name. Maybe I did not explain my opposition fully during the earlier discussion. What causes me headaches is the precedence this move would set for moving asteroid pages to nicknames. I admit that the situation with 2014 MU₆₉ is unique, since it is the first "asteroid" visited by a spacecraft (and gaining widespread attention) that had not yet been named. I would support rewording WP:NCASTRO if the result was such that it kept nicknames as a no-go for most objects, but allows them in special, well defined cases. Once that is done, I will support a move request if brought forward again in a few weeks. Please let us take the time to reword WP:NCASTRO carefully before doing this, otherwise I fear too much headache from other articles. To quote Mike Brown again - things are moving slowly in the Kuiper belt. This rewording of WP:NCASTRO should include a clearer definition/extension of the word "asteroid" that applies to KBOs. When the page is moved, the disambiguator "asteroid" should either be avoided, or it should be set as policy to use this for KBOs, to keep things consistent. Renerpho (talk) 04:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I have to say I'm somewhat surprised by the !votes of two seasoned experts, JFG and BD2412 here. Both argue that by the letter of our policy the article should have been moved, but because of "potential drama" and "the discussion yielded an absence of consensus" we should not do the move. This seems to overturn years of convention that discussion are not votes, and that policy dictates what we do, not the opinions of participants at the debate. Taken at face value, the "drama" comment implies that whoever shouts the loudest gets their way, which is an incredibly worrying development, because we all know that there are some users who are prepared to pour vast amounts of time and text at a point of view, (read WP:BLUDGEON), and it just isn't fair that they get more voice than those who don't do that. Equally, if there is no consensus simply because the votes didn't add up to a clear majority, as BD2412 suggests, then we might as well do away with RM closers altogether and get a bot to do the closing based on vote counts. I obviously respect your votes here, BD2412 and JFG, but I am certainly surprised by them. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 09:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Amakuru: I surprised myself as well! As I stated in my RM !vote and in my MR comment, a strict application of policy would indeed mandate moving to Ultima Thule, but the glaring ambiguity in the WP:NCASTRO naming guideline made the opponents' position tenable. Combine this contradiction with the exceptional high rate of participation in this move request, and I believe the "no consensus" outcome is actually a fair representation of the community's sentiment. This state of affairs should inform a review of the relevant naming guideline, which is already under way. Surely we will reconvene in a few weeks or months regarding the ultimate fate of Ultima Thule. — JFG ^talk 10:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JFG: yes, I'm sure we will. And thank you for the clarification... you're right of course that WP:NCASTRO gives some degree of legitimacy to the opposition, but I don't think it's enough to make me think this should have been a no consensus close. NCASTRO is a guideline, while WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. By their nature, policies are much more highly scrutinised and take precedence over guidelines, particularly specialist ones. The conventions given at NCASTRO need to be looked at, definitely - even if we stick with using 2014 MU69 as the title, it is clear that including that ugly six-figure number at the front isn't what reliable sources do - but either way that's not for me a prerequisite for overturning this close. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 10:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I read the prevailing sense of opposition to the move as asserting that there will be an "official" name soon, and that once this has been announced, everyone will forget "Ultima Thule" and move on to using the new name, so that the move as proposed will be short-lived and pointless. I have doubts about whether that announcement will in fact come soon, or will overcome public sentiment in favor of "Ultima Thule", but I credit those more involved in the relevant WikiProject with having more knowledge of the field than I have. bd2412 T 12:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, that's a valid point of view too. Thank you both for your replies to my concerns. Re the "announcement of an official name", let's keep an eye on that one. I think if it isn't forthcoming in the next few months then we should try the move again, and discount that viewpoint. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 14:13, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Zayn Malik (closed)

Lunar Roving Vehicle (closed)

CCTV New Year's Gala (closed)

Frances & Aiko (closed)

@@ Line 33: / Line 33: @@
 '''Endorse close'''. The request was open the required amount of times and consensus was clear. '''<span style="border: 1px #8C001A solid;background:#8C001A">[[User:Calidum|<span style="color: #FFFDD0;">Calidum</span>]]</span>''' 15:43, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 *'''Endorse''' - for better or for worse, we are clearly moving to a situation where years of events always go at the beginning. As such, there was clearly no policy based reason why this move should not go ahead. And the numbers in support showed a clear consensus. Looks like an uncontroversial close to me. Thanks &nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 19:45, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
+*'''Note''' - I was the original nominator, and while I'm not thrilled about the new date format, the commenters seemed pretty clear as to their preference. Maybe there wasn't a policy reason to move, but there wasn't one against. I'm pretty sure this constitutes local consensus. <span style="font-family:monospace;font-size:14px">[[User:ProgrammingGeek|<span style="color:green">programming</span><span style="color:orange">Geek</span>]]([[Special:Contributions/ProgrammingGeek|contribs]]) { this.timestamp =</span> 20:38, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
 ====[[:(486958) 2014 MU69]]====