Talk:Sunderland A.F.C.

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1

Famous supporters

I think under "supporters" it would make sense to mention a few famous ones, like it's often done with other clubs.

Some famous supporters of Sunderland include The Animals keyboardist Alan Price, actor Peter O'Toole, one half of the Eurythmics duo David A. Stewart, Kenickie leader and radio host Lauren Laverne, baritone Thomas Allen, journalist Kate Adie, veterinary surgeon/writer James Herriot, children's author Terry Deary, and lyricist Tim Rice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Discussed at the RfC. The answer was "no". Koncorde (talk) 11:55, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

References

Charity section

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but obv a whole section shouldn't include just ONE line.

This sentence, "A charity, the Foundation of Light, is affiliated with the club and helps encourage educational development through football, and offers learning centres in addition to scholarships.[145]" - I'm pretty sure such a sentence is not enough for a WHOLE section.

So I've expanded it: "A charity, the Foundation of Light, is affiliated with the club and helps encourage educational development through football, and offers learning centres in addition to scholarships.[145]

The Foundation regularly undertakes various fund-raising activities. In 2011, its 'Carols of Light' event in collaboration with Durham Cathedral and produced by Tim Rice included such music performers as Thomas Allen, former Animals member Alan Price, and Sunderland based band The Futureheads;[146] it also had speakers such as SAFC Foundation Trustee and former player Niall Quinn, journalist Kate Adie, and presenter Steve Cram.[147][148]

In 2015, the Foundation was granted permission to open a free school for vulnerable children[149]; and in 2015, the Foundation created a new official home for itself called the Beacon of Light, with classrooms and learning spaces, and with indoor sports courts[150]."

For some reason, the person who has created the section keeps on reverting me.

Fair enough, he doesn't think famous people outside football should be included, but that's just his opinion. The consensus on WikiProject: Football, said famous peps could be included if they influenced the club somehow, and helping the club establish a charity is a pretty big qualifier here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

1. There is no minimum size for a section. When that section is about something that isn't directly part of the main subject this is usually kept to the minimum information required. All extraneous information is kept to the main article of the subject. This is called content forking.

2. The content on the webpage should only be what is relevant to the subject of that subject. Unless the actions of the charity have had some significant bearing on the success or fortunes of the football club they are largely irrelevant. So for instance, if the charity successfully created a sporting academy through which X Sunderland youth footballers have been coached, that would be relevant. A concert held a decade ago so you can squeeze some celebrity names in - less so. I would accept the names to be included in that section would be the founder (chairman of Sunderland AFC) and representatives of the club itself who have taken part (such as Niall Quinn, and / or a reference to it being supported by the team / players at events). Everyone else is irrelevant to the Sunderland AFC article.

3. And no, the consensus does not say "if they influenced the club somehow". But even if it did, the creation of the charity in 1999 or whenever was the significant action. Charity events subsequently are ten a penny, and relevant to the charity itself not the club.

4. I have explained repeatedly why I am reverting your unnecessary content, which at the moment is just a smoke screen for your continued insistence on forcing "famous" people into the article regardless of how poorly it is written, and how unrelated it is to the main article. Koncorde (talk) 11:54, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

1. Nevertheless, such a short section looks bad.

2. And this is relevant to the subject because it gives a proper introduction to the chaity and what it does.

3. The charity is literally linked to the club.

4. And I've explained why you're wrong. Maxim.il89 (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

No, and no, and no. You are using this to promote unrelated content. I have no idea why, but it seems a recurring pattern across wikipedia. Koncorde (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, yes, and yes. See? I can play that to.

That content helps understand what happened better. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

It really doesn't, it's puffery for the charity and another attempt to slip in the names of some famous fans (which you were told was inappropriate by at the main Football project talk page). Last year you tried this same POV push and it was rejected. You waited several months to try and slide it in under the radar. There remains no consensus for its addition.

You need to establish consensus for changes. This is particularly important when it comes to Featured Articles. Koncorde (talk) 01:13, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Maxim.il89 I agree with Koncorde here, enough is enough. Please don't use the mainspace as your scratchpad. This has been called out many times now, the way ahead is to get some consensus that the material you're trying to add belongs in this very article. Right now, you don't have such a consensus. To continue to edit war in order to attempt to bully this material back in is highly disruptive and liable to result in you being blocked again. Get the consensus established please. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 08:00, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, as mach as I find it funny Koncorde went to your page to canvass you, I'm not edit warring - in fact, Koncorde is the one reverting me, and he's closer to the 3rr than I am. I totally support using the talk page. Maxim.il89 (talk) 08:51, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

I went to RM as he was directly involved in the discussions last year that you are ignoring. Koncorde (talk) 09:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Quite. Indeed, Maxim.il89, you'd be better off sticking to just the matter at hand for the moment rather than casting aspersions which will certainly not help your case and likely end in another block for you. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

You can't leave a two sentence section, fact. Maxim.il89 (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Please link the policy or guideline that substantiates your "fact"? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 00:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

I have blocked Maxim.il89 for 48 hours from the article for violating the three revert rule on it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

This is nonsense, because I haven't violated it. I had two reverts, technically - counting my first edit as a "revert" is ridiculous. Maxim.il89 (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Again, I'll repeat myself. You can't just leave one line for a while section. It's simple as that, a bit more background information is needed. Maxim.il89 (talk) 09:32, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Then find something relevant to the club. Inserting content relevant to the charity is irrelevant to the article. Koncorde (talk) 09:59, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's only your own opinion by which it's irrelevant. Again, you don't run Wikipedia. A real editor has just improved the section and made it presentable, which is all that was needed to begin with. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

You could have made it presentable yourself at any point.

Quote, item 2 at the top of the page I would accept the names to be included in that section would be the founder (chairman of Sunderland AFC) and representatives of the club itself who have taken part (such as Niall Quinn, and / or a reference to it being supported by the team / players at events).

Quote, my words to Richie on his talk page If you want to recommend the compromise of what element you believe is relevant (Murray, and Stadium development) you won't find opposition from me, but when I have suggested any level of moderation in the past he has taken it as an attack and ended up at several forums shopping a ban for me.

To sum up: I have said, since 15th of September 2019 what content is appropriate. In fact I created the Charitable Association section in order to enable you to better compose such a section. In fact Sunderland are associated with about a half-dozen charities and charitable affairs which at any point you could reference to expand the section; but you haven't.[1][2][3] Koncorde (talk) 02:00, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

I wanted to thank User:Ritchie333 for his edit. It makes sense as it makes the section look bigger and more clear. I hope a few here will learn from this edit how it's not normal to leave a whole section just one sentence long. Maxim.il89 (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Maxim.il89 thanks for your advice. Some of us have been here long enough to see baiting in action so I'll just let this slide and hope your attitude and editing patterns don't deteriorate once again to the point where you are blocked. Again. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 00:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

That's the problem, some of you have been here "long enough" to lose grasp of reality and start thinking that because you've been here longer gives you some arbitrary powers over what should be included, and what shouldn't, mostly a power trip (forgetting that Wikipedia exists to share knowledge, not to give you the illusion of power). I think user [[User:Ritchie333|Ritchie333 has been here for a while as well, and yet he doesn't get a kick from "flaunting" his Wikipedia "tenure" in front of newer editors. He makes edits that actually improve Wikipedia. Maxim.il89 (talk) 11:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

An editor being here for a while doesn't mean they own Wikipedia. Maxim.il89 (talk) 11:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Stadium

The section on stadium is about the stadium, not about people's feelings or opinions of the stadium. That content should be on the main stadium article, not this one. This article is about Sunderland AFC, any content should be about Sunderland AFC. Forcing in sections about people's emotional attachment to stadiums or grounds in order to force in "famous" names is a weak and pointless exercise. Koncorde (talk) 11:58, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 14:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Don't you think fans' reactions are part of the team history? It's pretty important what was said during the move, it's not a real history if it's not mentioned, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 18:24, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

That might be true if there was a section on the main Sunderland history about the stadium move, or even the fan reactions section you created on Roker Park itself where it is about the stadium and the fans affiliation to that stadium. Even a statement by the club about the move and or their feelings, (chairman, manager etc) might be relevant but I would typically avoid such things on a club article and leave it for the stadium article. Koncorde (talk) 18:37, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

It's understood you can't go into many details in a club article, but still, some should be mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Some what? Some famous fans opinions? Some feelings? Anything written should be done so encyclopedic ally. So for instance, if the chairman was to express sadness or hold a press conference etc then we might say "The stadium closure was marked with a ceremony attended by Sunderland players past and present." We might even talk about the last match, we may even mention any significant matches Roker Park hosted, or particularly famous people it hosted (i.e. royalty, senior politicians, foreign dignitaries) in the capacity of their official duties. However it should all be done neutrally. The main stadium article in comparison can go into more detail of the discussion of it being built, it's service, and it being designated for closure and responses to it. That all makes sense as it has context. Koncorde (talk) 19:00, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2019

proper term needs to places: "top pocket" should be "chest pocket" 2605:E000:9149:8300:2C24:FC74:83A5:F932 (talk) 13:04, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

 Done NiciVampireHeart 23:24, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Does this page need a list of celebrity fans?

Right, this article doesn't need a celebrity fans list, right? Like, that's only for the article about supporters?

Athletes

• Paul Collingwood[4] - cricketer.
• Steve Cram[5][6] - track and field athlete, silver medal at the 1984 Olympic Games.
• Tony Jeffries[7] - professional boxer, bronze medal in the 2008 Summer Olympics.
• John Lowe["Legends of Darts". Legendsofdarts.com. 20 June 2014. Archived from the original on 9 January 2016. Retrieved 31 May 2015.] - darts world champion.
• Martin O'Neill[8] - Northern Irish football manager and player.

Business

• Peter Vardy[9] [10] - businessman, automotive retail business.
• Tom Cowie[11] - businessman, Arriva Group.

Comedians

• Alfie Joey[12] - comedian, radio presenter.
• Bobby Knoxall[13] - comedian.

Film

• Melanie Hill[14] [15] - actress, Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, Coronation Street.
• Peter O'Toole[16][17] - stage and film actor, T. E. Lawrence in Lawrence of Arabia, record for the most Academy Award nominations for acting without a win.
• David Parfitt[18] - Oscar-winning producer.
• Richard Short[19] - stage and film actor.
• Gabe Turner[20] [21] [22] - One of the founders of Fulwell 73.

Music

• Don Airey[23] - keyboardist, Deep Purple.
• Thomas Allen[24] - operatic baritone.
• Tasmin Archer[Freeman, Sarah (20 September 2006). "High expectations for singer Tasmin's return". Yorkshire Post. Retrieved 23 August 2012. I needed to do something creative which had an end result. If you have writer's block, obsessing about it is the worst thing you can do and I knew that whatever else happened I had to get on with things. My partner John is a massive Sunderland fan; I went with him to a game and, that was it, I was hooked. Turning to football didn't cure the writer's block, but it helped. In the end there was no Eureka moment, it just gradually lifted. Suddenly I was able to finish all those half-written songs.] - pop singer.
• Peter Brewis[25] - Musician, Field Music.
• Alex Kapranos[26] - Scottish musician, Franz Ferdinand.
• Lauren Laverne[27] - singer, Kenickie.
• Alan Price[28] - keyboardist, The Animals.
• Tim Rice[29][30] - lyricist and author.
• David A. Stewart[31][32] - musician, Eurythmics.
• Frankie Stubbs[33][34] - punk musician, Leatherface.

Politicians

• Ian Lucas[35] - Labour MP for Wrexham, Wales.
• Сhris Mullin[36] - Labour MP for Sunderland South, journalist, author.
• Jonathan Reynolds[37] - Labour MP for Stalybridge and Hyde.

Television personalities

• George Clarke[38] - architect, television presenter, lecturer and writer.
• Glenn Hugill[Safc mad celebs Archived April 22, 2012, at the Wayback Machine] - television presenter and producer.
• David Jones[39] - sports presenter for Sky Sports.
• Denise Robertson[40] - writer and television broadcaster.

Writers and journalists

• Kate Adie[41][42] - journalist, Chief News Correspondent for BBC News.
• James Herriot[43][44] - veterinary surgeon and writer.
• Terry Deary[45][46] - children's author, Horrible Histories series.
• Kevin Maguire[47] [48][49] - political journalist, associate editor at the Daily Mirror, reporter for The Guardian.
• Jonathan Wilson [50][51] [52] – Author, editor of The Blizzard and sports journalist for The Guardian.

Maxim.il89 (talk) 23:01, 17 August 2020 (UTC)