Talk:Melbourne

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Pronunciation of Melbourne

"Reference" #3 about a supposed local pronunciation of Melbourne is not a credible external reference, it is another wikipedia page. Another WP page is not a credible external reference. BTW that page or its references say nothing about Melbourne, they test and discuss only the Victorian country town of Wangaratta, Victoria - nowhere near Melbourne. (BTW: according to Wikipedia, Wangaratta itself has two different pronunciations.) Format (talk) 05:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

I have removed the reference#3 I mention above (that was actually not a reference but a link to another wikipedia page) so subsequent to my deletion Reference #3 is now something else. Format (talk) 06:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The above chg just got reverted, I think as part of the changes being discussed below? I have reinstated an earlier version which at least had external references for the two pronunciations listed. I don't care in which sequence they appear, but any pronun listed needs an external reference. Format (talk) 06:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

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The first reference is for the international pronunciation as used by North American, North English and Irish accents, and uses the general transcription from the reliable source of dictionary.com, as published by Random House. Please use the correct IPA for transcriptions representing accents. The first uses the general transcription as found on Wikipedia:IPA for English and the second, is a narrow Australian transcription from Australian English phonology. The reference user Bidgee gave for the Australian pronunciation was published in 2003, whilst the reference I used was published in 2005, so I think it's better to use the latest publication. – Marco79 04:36, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Well Melbourne is an Australian city, so how Australians pronounce it is correct. How Americans pronounce Melbourne, Florida, of course is relevant there, but not here. --Michael Johnson (talk) 04:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and that is why it's is mentioned second. It's not just how Americans pronounce this city, but others as I said from Ireland, Northern England, etc. But the major point is that Wikipedia uses a general pronunciation first and then the local pronunciation second. The key for the general transcription can be found at Wikipedia:IPA for English. And a key for the Australian transcription can be found at Australian English phonology#Relationship to other varieties. Please see these for more information.– Marco79 04:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

So why do the Irish and Americans take precedence? What about South Africans or Londoners? And in any case I can't understand why you would want to include incorrect pronunciations anyway. But if so they should come second after the local pronunciation. --Michael Johnson (talk) 05:33, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Thats my thoughts as well. Reminds me the rubbish that all Australian articles had to use UTC time when really it's local time/dates before UTC. Really this is becoming an Americanised encyclopaedia! Bidgee (talk) 05:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you understand that it's consensus that a general transcription is used first and then the local is used second. I'm not saying that Irish, Americans should take precedence, it's just a standard that has been accepted with consensus in Wikipedia pertaining to all articles with a general English and local pronunciations. But if you like I guess we could compromise and place it second? – Marco79 05:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Show me the consensus. I've seen people say there is a consensus when there was none or wasn't really an unbiased consensus. So far I've found no policy stating general then local. Bidgee (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Here is a guideline Wikipedia:Pronunciation#Distinction between British, American and Australian pronunciation. – Marco79 05:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

That guideline only says that it may be useful to have both, not which should go first. How helpful is it to anybody to have the non-local pronunciation first? Definitely unhelpful, I would have thought. Most people with any cultural sensitivity at least try to pronounce things like the locals do. --Michael Johnson (talk) 06:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I know that, but it is useful to have both, no matter which is first, it's just that on many other articles, that is the order used. that's all, so I will restore the general transcription, but place it second. – Marco79 06:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

It would be incorrect to pronounce it "Malburn" unless you have the celery-salary merger. The international and Australian forms are identical except for accent. For anyone who has an Australian accent, the international form will be the Australian form. For non-Australians, though, getting the correct "local" pronunciation will only mean pronouncing it "Melburn" rather than "Melborn". They will of course almost all keep their own accent. kwami (talk) 06:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

No the Australian pronunciation is quite different to that of NA, NE and Ireland and would be correctly pronounced "MEL-bn" not "MEL-burn", which to an Australian's ear would be wrong. – Marco79 07:10, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I was recently watching a TV program here in Australian and it had an American pronouncing Melbourne (Australian city) as /mɛlbən/, without the "er" sound as he would have with Melbourne /mɛlbɚn/ (city in the US). – Marco79 06:54, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

It's common enough to pick up the local accent when visiting a town. But that doesn't mean that non-visiters have picked it up.

With the "burn", I was assuming accommodation for a non-stressed syllable. That's one of the problems of sound-alikes. kwami (talk)

The third pronunciation is not referenced. That just links to another wikipedia page. And that page shows only that one group of Wangaratta schoolgirls in 2003 had a celery/salary merger. Doesn't say anything about pronunciations in Melbourne - that study never tested Melbourne speakers. Format (talk) 06:57, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

That's a different matter, and would warrant deleted it. I thought we had some Melbournians here last time this was discussed. Is there any here now from Melbourne? kwami (talk) 07:17, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I am a Melburnian but if I declared I say Melburn not Malburn it would only be original research anyway. Format (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm a Melburnian — born and bred — too, and I have the merger, where the name "Mal" and the beginning of "Melbourne" sound the same, or even the names "Elle" and "Al" also sound the same. But that too would be OR. So I would pronounce "Melbourne" as [mælbən]. – Marco79 07:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I pronounce "Mel" or "Mal" the same as a result of the celery/salary merger, and the second syllable with little trace of a vowel sound, almost "bn". Melburnian (talk) 07:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

The point with sourcing is whether anyone would be likely to challenge it. If editors from Melbourne are satisfied that [mælbən] is correct, where's the challenge? From people who don't know the difference? We give lots of local pronunciations on Wikipedia on the say-so of resident editors. That's been good enough, except in cases where we suspect that a single editor doesn't know what s/he's talking about. kwami (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a source that says that the celery-salary merger does indeed take place in Melbourne, and also New Zealand and Brisbane. However, it doesn't take place in Sydney, Hobart, Adelaide, or Perth. Thegryseone (talk) 19:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Another Melburnian here. My totally non-technical description of the local pronunciation of Melbourne is that the first syllable is said exactly like Mel Gibson's first name, and the second syllable has no vowel sound at all; it's simply "bn".Roblowe48 (talk) 10:56, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't tell us anything though. Thegryseone (talk) 16:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Thessaloniki sister cities stele vs Chinatown

I'm questioning the image because I've lived here for nearly a decade and I've never seen this stele. It is really important enough to go in this article ? Should it have replaced the earlier Chinatown images ?

I thought the Chinatown image in this section was more appropriate. The Chinese have had a permanent settlement in Melbourne for over 150 years - since the city was declared (and possibly the second most historic Chinatown in the world), whereas the Greeks have been here for only around half a century. Thessaloniki is not a well known world city, whereas China is a country with nearly half the world's populaation.

Also Chinatown is a much more recognisable cultural landmark than the Thessaloniki sister cities stele.

Surely Chinatown is a more important symbol for this section. --Biatch (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

County in Infobox

I notice that Melbourne is currently listed as being in the County of Bourke, however technically Greater Melbourne extends eastward to the County of Evelyn southward to the County of Mornington and also westward to the County of Grant.

Perhaps these counties should be added to the infobox.

--Biatch (talk) 07:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Defining the CBD

The equating of the CBD with the old Hoddle street grid under "Urban Structure" is hopelessly out of date. This is recognised in the Melbourne City Centre article which counts Southbank and Docklands as part of the CBD. I entered (in this article) that Southbank and Docklands have much office development - this was removed. So, as a stir, I put in an edit that the Eureka tower (the tallest building) is in fact outside the (old) CBD, which means the Rialto is still the tallest building in the CBD (as defined by this article). In defining the CBD it is long overdue that the defacto reality of its extension into Southbank and Docklands be recognised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.221.94.223 (talk) 03:14, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Infobox Montage Request - Trams

Is it possible to include an image that shows trams in it in the infobox montage. The National Trust lists the tram network as one of Melbourne's greatest landmarks and they help greatly to define the character of the city. --Biatch (talk) 05:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

A replacement shot of Flinders Street Station that includes a tram like this (but ideally not covering the clocks) could be one way of doing it. Melburnian (talk) 08:13, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Sister cities

Are London and Vancouver sister cities? They are not listed in the reference this page gives for that section. Format (talk) 22:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.148.98.116 (talk) 09:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Photo description

Hi, I took this image in Melbourne but don't know the name of the street or mall. Does anyone here know so I can give the image a proper description. Cheers . Adam (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Could be Bourke Street? Not 100% however. Bidgee (talk) 11:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay thanks, somebody else may be able to help. Adam (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah thats Bourke Street. Farsouth (talk) 13:16, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure is. Aaroncrick (talk) 03:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The photo is the Bourke Street Mall pointing east. You can see Naru Building in the background and Myers to the left. throttler 03:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Melbourne GAN

Anyone thinking about nominating for GAN in the coming weeks, as the article has been drastically improved lately. Aaroncrick (talk) 03:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

August Melbourne Meetup

A new Melbourne Meetup is being organised for Sunday 9 August, 2009. The chief programs officer for the Wikimedia Foundation, Jennifer Riggs will be in town and is looking forward to meeting some of the local wikipedians. So, please check out Wikipedia:Meetup/Melbourne 14 and sign up if you can make it. Cuddy Wifter (talk) 07:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Laneways

I stumbled accross this article about laneways in melbourne from the age, written in 2008. i thought it might be a help for anyone trying to expand that part of the article. http://business.theage.com.au/business/life-thrives-in-the-laneways-20080527-2iqd.html?page=1 Chumchum14 (talk) 12:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Melburnians

I'd like to see some information about why the word "Melburnian" was decided upon as the term for a resident of Melbourne. I presume it's from the presumed Latin version of Melbourne. But who first used it, and how did it come to be generally accepted? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Pictures

There are two images in this article that I strongly suggest be taken out. The .gif that shows the population growth is not useful at all, since it only shows 1830, 1880, 2006, and 2030. It is also not at all clear what sources were used to develop it. Furthermore, it is not exactly professional looking. Also, the picture of "autumn in Canterbury" is very blurry and seems clearly to have been taken with some kind of color saturation filter to make it look "redder." Would anyone rather these two images stay? Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 23:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)