Talk:One Night in Miami...

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Character names

Malcom X, Betty X, and Cassius Clay are all dead names. However in February of 1964 these were their names and hence the name of the characters in the film. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 23:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is silly. These people are notable with their previous names thus the headline should express that. I'm fine with using their preferred names in context of the story but this is not within context of the story.--2601:140:8B80:5F50:9C2:6FA5:79D8:BD29 (talk) 03:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about preferred names. It's about legal and professional names. Wikipedia has a dead name policy. So outside of the characters (because of the timeline) we use the last legal and professional name. This is about Wikipedia policy. Not what you, or for that matter I or anyone else think is silly. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 03:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a dead name, because no one in this is trans. Malcolm X's page still reads Malcolm X so yea. --2601:140:8B80:5F50:9C2:6FA5:79D8:BD29 (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are dead names. His page is wrong. That was not his last legal name. Let alone the name he chose after changing his religious, social, and political identity. The policy applies. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 03:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The dead naming policy only applies to trans individuals. Wikipedia's policy gives precedent to their most commonly known name unless there's an exception. There is not a clear exception here. It's also confusing and doesn't follow the guidelines of the sources. All sources for the movie's advertising refer to the character in this movie as Malcolm X. If you can find one that doesn't, let me know. --2601:140:8B80:5F50:9C2:6FA5:79D8:BD29 (talk) 04:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's his last legal name. That's the important part. It's the name of his wife's and grandson's page. Deadnames applying to gender identity clearly can be extended to religious and social identity. And regardless it's also policy to use the legal name. We don't have control of the press misusing his name. We do have control of applying Wikipedia policy correctly and using the correct, legal, preferred identified name. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 04:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I'm sending this to Arbitration but I will be clear that this is a fictionalized version of Malcolm regardless so we should defer to how the movie refers to him2601:140:8B80:5F50:9C2:6FA5:79D8:BD29 (talk) 04:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]

By that logic we should use Cassius Clay in the tag line rather than Muhammad Ali. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 04:12, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Now that you have changed it in a way I think we both are okay with, it seems this issue is resolved. You should have mentioned it on here first though, for future reference. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 05:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind. You're now undoing my edits and making baseless and harmful accusations.Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 05:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another note. You are continually changing it both anonymously and under an account that has very few edits, in spite of the talk page and me messaging you, asking you to discuss it on here. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 14:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Facu-el Millo:: @Rusted AutoParts:: @The Grand Delusion:: @Horacio Vara:, for further input. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 14:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Plain and simple, how are they credited? Rusted AutoParts 14:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Rusted AutoParts: As far as character names in the cast section. Yes. But in the intro? We shouldn't use Cassius Clay in the intro, should we? Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’d say go by the poster for that one. X, Ali, Brown, Cooke. Rusted AutoParts 14:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Rusted AutoParts: Ok. That makes sense to me. However, because Malcom X was not his last legal name I'd like to wait to see if @Facu-el Millo: has any input. We had a discussion about how names on posters get changed according to Wikipedia policy due to a shift in public gender identity. I came to understand that the same would apply due to legal changes due to other major shifts in one's identity. I could be wrong but I'd like to see if Facu has more clarity on this. If not, what you said sounds fine to me. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 15:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's mostly about how reliable sources treat the subject, and whether the "new" name becomes the common name or doesn't. But there are many problems here. First, deadnaming by definition only applies to trans people, that's the term used specifically for misgendering someone, it doesn't apply to any kind of name change. Even if you were using a different name than the one preferred by the person, if they're not trans it's not called deadnaming. Second, there needs to be consensus, and there needs no be consensus on how we refer to the person generally. The same happened with you and DiCaprio in Inception. Changing Malcolm X to his legal name here is a bold change, which can be reverted on the grounds of the bold, revert, discuss cycle. The following step is to obtain consensus, but this should be done at the talk page of the article on the person, not here, otherwise you would have to argue why we should be making an exception in this article, hence all the preferred name and legal name arguments wouldn't be valid. This person should be called Malcolm X here as long as there is consensus for it, which there is. You are free to start a discussion at Talk:Malcolm X and see if the consensus changes. —El Millo (talk) 15:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Facu-el Millo: Ok. Clearly I still misunderstand this. However, this is not like DiCaprio. It is actually the opposite. His name was to remain Leonardo, in spite of no one referring to him that way because it is his legal and professional name according to you. Malik Shabazz was this person's legal and professional name at his time of death in spite of it not being used to name him. This is clearly confusing and has no set rule. However, thanks to both of the recent additions we have consensus. So we'll name Malik Shabazz, Malcolm X in the intro. As far as the character names, the editor making changes is out of control. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the movie's IMBD page, the character is referred to as Ali. I am fine with having both Cassius Clay and Ali in the character name section but omitting Ali's name entirely is not how the movie is advertised. It is advertised as Ali. The writer of this character refers to them as Ali. --2601:140:8B80:5F50:9C2:6FA5:79D8:BD29 (talk) 16:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have brought up the name change on Malik Shabazz's page Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

IMDB is not a reliable source according to Wikipedia. We go by the film and credits and as it reads now it makes it sound like two characters. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I'm fine with listing both but omitting Ali's name entirely is confusing considering how the movie is advertised and how reliable sources refer to the character. It is not however a dual role as was discussed previously.