Talk:Roman Empire

Template:Vital article

Coin in infobox (yes, again)

I'm sorry to do this, but I just realized the two top images of in the article are BOTH of Augustus. (I was reviewing the images after the sad copyright-vio loss of the model that showed the Circus Maximus and Flavian Amphitheatre … sigh.) In terms of cultural literacy, the Augustus of Prima Porta needs to be where it is, IMO. But it strikes me as redundant to have both images at the top be of Augustus. That's the problem with not making these kinds of choices in the context of the informational/educational purpose of the article as a whole. I still prefer to go with an image that the Romans themselves used to personify an aspect of imperial rule, but the argument about representing the Empire with an emperor is perfectly sound, and Trajan seems like the best candidate as reigning when the Empire was at its greatest expanse. See Commons:Category:Coins of Traianus, but please feel free to get creative and go outside that category. If we can agree on an image, but it needs editing, I'll volunteer to take it to the photo workshop at Commons to have it cropped or the background dropped or whatever, so expressing an opinion here doesn't obligate you to further effort. Thanks. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Proposed images

• 
  Hadrian is a good-looking chap, & the reverse the standard image after some troublesome province had needed teaching a lesson.
• 
  Reverse: Concord(ia) & Spes
• 
  Marcus Aurelius and Victory

It seems to me that if you're going to feature a coin on the infobox, then the image should show both sides, and that it should be of precious metal - gold (aureus), or at least silver (denarius)- thus less corroded and more shiny, and that it should contain the SPQR acronym. The coin you propose above is grotty bronze, with a badly corroded head. Also, the reverse has the legend RESTITUTOR ACHAEAE ("Saviour of Greece") - hardly an Earth-shaking campaign. EraNavigator (talk) 15:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, obviously the two aurei above are an improvement on the bronze specimen. But neither contain the official SPQR state acronym, which surely would be desirable in the infobox of the Roman Empire. EraNavigator (talk) 18:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "official". There's no reason to think that the initialism was more important than other ways of representing the unity of the Empire. In fact, SPQR represents the effort to preserve Republican traditions, and owes its continued use to the formal retention (in some aspects, pretense) of Republican institutions in the Imperial era. The increased use of other abstractions such as Pax, Concordia, Victoria, and numerous others arises from quite official attempts to produce a unifying imperial imagery. The Altar of Victory acquired its symbolic importance in the debate between Symmachus and Ambrose because it was a remaining symbol of that process of unification. J. Rufus Fears has an extended treatment of this, which includes the importance of coinage, in ANRW II.17.2 (1981) with the two very long articles "The Theology of Victory at Rome: Approaches and Problems" and "The Cult of Virtues and Roman Imperial Ideology". These personifications were very much a part of official "self-presentation" (or propaganda) and distinctive of the Empire, though established in the Republic with the temple-dedications to Honos et Virtus and the like by victorious generals from the Second Punic War onward. And in the Dominate they seem to have cared little for the concept of SPQR, while these abstract ladies proliferated. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:13, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

By "official" I mean exactly that: the way that the State was referred to in imperial inscriptions (e.g. on triumphal arches, governmental buildings, etc). Officially, the State remained a Republic (with the same annually elected magistrates - Consuls etc) - whatever the political realities. Senatus Populusque Romanus continued to appear in imperial inscriptions until ca. AD 400. Res Publica Populi Romani Quiritium, or just Res Publica, was an alternative official form. e.g. the epitaph inscription for the imperial statue granted to Marcus Claudius Fronto, a general who was killed in battle with the Sarmatians under Marcus Aurelius (ca. 170): "he fell, bravely fighting until his last breath for the Republic". CONCORDIA, VICTORIA, PAX etc, did not refer to the State: they were propagandistic motifs highlighting a particular quality of an emperor's rule.

PS: here is a Trajanic coin that contains SPQR (unfortunately it's cheap bronze):

File:SPQR COIN Roman.jpg

EraNavigator (talk) 19:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Most triumphal arches contain the SPQR acronym: e.g. Arch of Titus, Arch of Trajan, Arch of Septimius Severus, Arch of Constantine. You might consider replacing the coin feature with one of these arches, or its inscription. For example,

Inscription on Arch of Titus

I'm not disagreeing with any of that. All these images can be considered propaganda. The abstractions embody a different aspect of unification under Roman rule, and are characteristic of the Empire. The Roman Empire was not a modern nation-state, which is why it seems useful to avoid imagery (particularly that phony vexilloid that someone just added again) that suggests otherwise. Besides, if the image at the top is only letters, then we don't need an image. The idea is to have a visual impact, an image that encapsulates the article, which is not just a political and military account. The advantage of having a two-sided coin image, as Era Navigator suggested, is that we can have it two ways: we have the emperor on one side, and an image on the other that points to something broader. Like the existence of humanity beyond the masculine ruling elite, however it may be shaped for ideological purposes. I like the opportunity of using the image to announce more of what the current article actually does: to show that the Roman Empire will maybe hold some surprises for the reader that Hollywood and popular (mis)conceptions haven't prepared them for. I've learned a lot myself in researching the article over the last year about economic diversity and social mobility, for instance. These are the kinds of things that the personifications are meant to be embody. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:16, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Ugh.. enough already. We agreed on the coin theme now lets let it stand for at least a couple months before its nit-picked over. I feel kinda guilty for starting all this. Disagree with using photos of triumphal arches. If we must use S.P.Q.R. as a symbol then just use an .SVG rendering of the acronym in some vaguely-Roman font. Placing a photo of a triumphal arch in the infobox is akin to introducing the photo of a flag [1] instead of an .SVG rendition of the same symbol. -- Director (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Purpose?

I don't get it. Why is there an image of a coin in the infobox? Why is this necessary? It makes the infobox unnecessarily long.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

If you read through some of the more recent talk page logs, you'll see the point of the coin image was to fill the infobox's coat of arms field with something that was much closer to a state symbol than the previously used vexilloid image. Since the Romans didn't represent the state in the way we do today (indeed Rome wasn't even a state in the way we think of them today), there has been some debate (as you can see) over what is the best fit.
It doesn't make the infobox unnecessarily long. Unless you consider infoboxes themselves unnecessary (as many people do), the infobox has been reduced to covering only the essential points. —Sowlos  22:21, 13 February 2014(UTC)

Since Rome didn't have an official flag or emblem, wouldn't it be more appropriate just leave the "coat of arms field" empty?--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

You make a good point, however it's not actually as simple as that. We technically have similar problems selecting:

• The Empire's official name — It has had many, none of which would be "official" in the modern sense)
• Its start date — It had no actual founding; here was a gradual transition from the way things were run in what is commonly termed the Republic
• Its end date — Different parts of the Empire ended at vastly different times
• A map of its territory — We use a map of the Empire's greatest extent, but we have no way to show its final borders
• The capital city — That depends on what era you look at, what historian you ask, and ignores that the capital essentially was wherever the Emperor happened to be
• A single government type — That depends on when
• "The head of state's title" — See Template:Infobox_former_country#Politics
• Its legislature — One could make the argument that Empire, after its early years, technically had no real legislaure
• Its historical era — See the dating issues
• Its official currency — The Empire didn't deal with the minting of currencies at all the way we do today
• Etc

With all that, we could argue that the Roman Empire wasn't technically a state/country at all and as such it would be more appropriate to remove the former country infobox all together. But, we don't do that here or with the articles of other entities in similar predicaments. The nature states has changed over time. Understanding that, we give all the historical entities across this continuum equivalently similar coverage. The fact of the matter is people like pretty "infoboxes", it would likely cause a great deal of trouble if we tried to resist that for this or any other important article, and the former country infobox was obviously made with the modern nation-state in mind, so we're forced to be somewhat flexible with how its fields are used. However, this is not to say we haven't excluded obviously too ambiguous from being placed in the infobox. —Sowlos  01:07, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

NOBODY

Nobody cited in the article the main cause of theRoman Empire decline.It's incredible,a lot of words without citing the chronic ill of the this unique power in the history.The real killer was the INFLACTION and HIGH LEVEL of printing of currency.In the year 0 a roman golden coin was 95% golden made.In 465-476 a.C. in the Western Roman Empire a coin was only 5% golden composed.In the Roman Republic article nobody cites that to be a roman citizen( "Civis romanus sum") you must live at the south of the Rubicone river (Romagna) and at the south of Liguria borders. All main hystoricians of Rome know it.It's impressive the lacking of knowledge in this article.May be nobody knows well Romans as Italians because they are the largest part of their roots.Nobody has this privilege,all world copied later the Roman Imperial Eagle that lives on my mountains.Copied.151.40.92.202 (talk) 11:22, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

There are many causes of "decline", or transformation. The debasement of the currency is at Roman Empire#Currency and banking. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:26, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

INFLACTION and HIGH LEVELS of printing money are the main cause of the Roman Empire collapse.In the article they aren't cited.It's impossible to describe the Roman Empire without citing main things .About roman citizenship nobody cited "what is it".Italian best historicians of the roman period (that are the best ones in roman history without doubt)always cite what i suggested.Article is at a low level.151.40.92.202 (talk) 18:58, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the article: see Roman Empire#Currency and banking on inflation and currency debasement. Symptoms and contributing factors of "decline", which current scholars are more likely to view as transformation, are discussed by topic, not in a "grand theory" section. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:06, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You might also be pleasantly surprised by by the article on Roman citizenship and the various articles linked from there, such as Latin right. NebY (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Inflaction should be cited in the main article as main cause of the Roman Empire decline ,just to set the things at the right place.About "Citizenship" you should explain about it too in the main article,in fact it changed by times of the Empire.For istance there isn't a map of the roman citizenship most known that is the one that had very similar borders with the later Gothic Line during WWII.Explaning the importance of Teutoburg battle (the main root of the origin of protestant world,in fact saxons and scandinavian people never had the roman culture) and the defeat in the today Iran land (the east never fell under roman and so also the christian influence) it wouldn't be a mistake.Same importance is explaining the everlasting dualism west-east in the Empire.East was influnced dy eastern minding and religions much more ascetic (this explain why western progress as today intended started in the western lands of the Roman Empire) These are main themes that influenced and will influence history after the Roman Empire (see byzantine and orthodox world that were originated before politically and later also at the religious level).Roman Empire it's too complex to be presented in this way.I gave you just some main suggests to better this article in my opinion good just for common people. 151.40.92.202 (talk) 13:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Historians have proposed hundreds of causes or contributory causes of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire. Inflation is one of the better explanations, but generally specialists in the period don't point to one thing, but a combination of many things, such as civil wars, increasing Sassanid military effectiveness, a wider range of potential usurpers, soil depletion, the destabilizing effects of Hunnic hegemony in central Europe, and its collapse, and so on. Inflation also requires a working definition of inflation, because declining silver content in the currency does not in itself imply declining buying power. Ananiujitha (talk) 15:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

A lower % of gold in a coin is sign of inflaction in Banca d'Italia.I don't know at other homes. Roman Empire collapse had as main root (not the only one ) inflaction.We must consider then many causes ,but a strong sign was inflaction.Yun Lin (they were so named by chineses) moving or ills or military mistakes were statistically all possible other causes.Main historicians consider the extension of the Empire too large and too long lasting in the time compared with the level of growth of the inventions and the discoveries of the period( even today and very probably next decades world will grow slowly and in quantity and above all in quality becacuse of lacking of discoveries or inventions).The lines to join the borders of the Empire were too too long .Same for other empires (see Mongols) that because of the short lasting quickly collapsed.Every empire has in its DNA like all the human beings the weak points.In the long term always the most rigid part of a structure (there were a lot of them in the Roman Empire) become a limit,in fact flexibilty is the origin of the life.So "who was " a roman citizen?Where was he from under Augustus?I can't see the map in this article of the Roman Empire referred to it.It's really hard for a common person to realize in the article "WHO" was and "WHERE" lived the roman under the best period of the Roman Empire. Pliny the younger had the main estate at 5 km from my home in northern Umbria ,close Tuscany.The archeological place is named "Colle Plinio".The villa is close to creek Vertola that starts at Bocca (mouth) Tabaria (long piece of wood used for houses or ships).In this area passes (Bocca Trabaria,Bocca Serriola (serrula was used to cut wood),Via Maggio) were the camps of the romans that attacked Hannibal at the lake and the brother close Fanum.You can still see in the forrests the old road that linked Tifernum Tiberinum to Ariminum.I checked this article and they somebody added "citation needed")))What level of knowledge)))151.40.92.202 (talk) 15:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Except for the map at the top of the article. And the section Roman Empire#Geography and demography. And the drop-down box that lists provinces. I encourage you to read the article before commenting on it. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:53, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I read it all and those things aren't explained or presented at all well in this article.I'm sorry.And trust me,my low vote isn't from a common reader.151.40.92.202 (talk) 21:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Another one of those weirdos with incomplete ideas about history coming from political propaganda. Lemme guess, you've heard someone tell you about the history of money and it blew you away so now you think you know why everything happened in all of time. Tell me, is the US is going to go the way of Rome? Is it inevitable? Already starting? Uggh..

Amico, the Roman Empire fell apart due to a huge number of reasons, but behind it all is the fact that political power in the Empire was based more and more openly in the professional standing army - which is a fundamentally unstable system. If any commander can just take his troops and proclaim himself ruler with more-or-less the same legitimacy as anyone else - that's not good. Say Martin Dempsey addressed US troops one day and said he was the rightful President, and that he's counting on their support to put him in the oval office - what do you think would happen? They'd say "you didn't win an election (also, are you nuts?)". If Marshal de Villars ever thought of telling his troops he's the rightful King of France, he knew they'd say - "but you've no right to the throne!".

Its the stratocratic system that caused the Crisis of the 3rd Century, and its this Crisis that ultimately destroyed that which made Rome tick. The inflation was simply the consequence of many would-be emperors trying to buy off their troops with more and more money of less and less worth - its a consequence of the primary factors, not the cause.

But this is not a forum, so I suggest you make a specific edit suggestion (and post sources in support of course). -- Director (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You made of it a forum .May be you misunderstood article.USA can't be compared to the Roman Empire at every level.I'm sorry.Really a low level article.Delete that Amico.You call in that way all people you like ,but not me.151.40.92.202 (talk) 21:18, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Non sei mio amico? Sono distrutto. Specific proposals now, please - or else take a hike. -- Director (talk) 21:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry for you.May be or without doubt (as people like more) today the real and sole silent empire in the world is EU.See Eurosphere. I like to talk of this article problems not of USA propaganda that you held here.Cynewolfe i saw map,but in the article there isn't map that explain in the "golden" period where lived the people that could say "Civis romanus sum".That's really incredible.People will trust that the majority of roman citizens in that period lived in Spain,Greece,Egypt,France,England,Iraq and so on...that's really not clear in presenting.You lack a lot in describing "WHERE" romans lived and "WHO" were they in Roman Empire.The empire couldn't exist without romans and nevertheless the article. I begin to doubt about or level of knowledge or good feith as Wikipedia asks .Answering many times at the same way (without trying to change what is wrong or without having doubts or criticizing what is written in himself) begins to be an "Excusatio non petita accusatio manifesta".Really good luck and thanks of your talking.151.40.92.202 (talk) 21:30, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Inflation and decline

First of all, this article already addresses inflation, here: Roman Empire#Currency and banking. Second, there is another article on the decline, here: Decline of the Roman Empire. Ananiujitha (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I read it,but you didn't post the subjects by importance.I noticed the decline description and the "Civis romanus sum" description.To pay soldiers and above all allies too it needed money and inflaction (well described by the decline of % of gold in coins) wasn't good to do it (soldier derives from solidum that was the latin name of a type of coin ).It seems that under Augustus or Traianus the roman citizens lived on all Roman Empire territories.About the military decline Attila was defeated by Romans and allies.His people caused many movements of other people but it wasn't the main cause of the empire fall.On the military level are much more influent the northern tribes from Scandinavia and Persian Gulf populations.May be reading for people the greatest history encyclopedia BARBAGALLO (and not only ; latin and latin literature and archeology must be known very very well) isn't a bad thing.Thanks of your talking and good luck. 151.40.92.202 (talk) 21:23, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Main map of Empire

I propose that the map in the infobox used should not be the map at the greatest extent, but the anachronous map of all lands ever under Roman control. For example, southern Scotland was conquered after the greatest extent. Zginder 2013-10-28T19:00:50Z

If its only south Scotland then imo there would be no point. -- Director (talk) 19:46, 28 October 2013 (UTC)