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User:Volunteer Marek inserting POV-slanted original research in ukraine topics

Volunteer Marek has been going around the articles relating to the Ukrainian crisis inserting original research and completely made up things supporting his POV while reverting any efforts to change the statements to actually represent what the sources say, while deceptively claiming in his edit summaries that he is removing "misrepresentations" and "original research".

One example is the Euromaidan article where i had removed the claim that "some of the snipers were not allowed to shoot" for not being supported, nor even mentioned, in any of the sources.[1] Besides being original research, the statement made it seem as if only those who were not allowed to shoot were surprised by those who were (ie implying that Janukovich snipers were allowed to shoot and were the ones doing it, something completely unsupported by the sources). However, since such a wording, and made-up stuff, fits his POV he immediately reinserted that claim.[2]

Another example is from 2014 Crimean Crisis where i had removed a whole bunch of claims unsupported by the source [3] [4]. As anyone can see the source [5] does not say anything about any "ukrainian officials", "Refat Chubarov", it being "undemocratic", "hastily prepared", "falsified" or "not reflecting the real will of the Crimeans". However, since the claims made it appear as if there is a widespread belief that only 40% participated and that the referendum was falsified, rather than just one man's speculations about how many participants there could have been given turnouts in earlier elections, which perfectly fits Marek's POV, he promptly reinserted the original research.[6]B01010100 (talk) 22:34, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This is sour grapes over the fact that I filed a report on User:B01010100 for edit warring ([7] - s/he got blocked then block was reduced after B01010100 promised to behave, which appears to have been an empty promise) and had the temerity to point out that it's a sketchy-as-hell single purpose account who's arrived recently (?) on Wikipedia for the sole purpose of engagin in some good ol' fashioned WP:BATTLEGROUND.Volunteer Marek (talk) 22:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

No, this is over the fact that i'm constantly working to fact-check sources and rewriting the articles to more accurately present the sources but you constantly reverting and reinserting OR for no other reason than that it fits your POV. Besides, even if it were sour grapes, i'll just refer you to Ad Hominem.B01010100 (talk) 22:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see how Marek's contributions are in any way controversial, and am going to have to side with them in this regard. If you guys have a dispute, work it out at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, but I am not seeing anything here that is concerning, especially when one looks at B01010100's talk page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree. B01010100 needs to stop focusing on Volunteer Marek, and start concentrating on ensuring his own contributions are not becoming problematic. Coming here each time he perceives an issue is not going to go down well. If there is in fact a dispute, a conflict or some grievance about Volunteer Marek which needs to be addressed, the appropriate thing to do is utilise dispute resolution. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:17, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I find Volunteer Marek's edits so much POV that it's very difficult to keep assuming good faith. I don't want to look non-neutral, but, frankly saying, I am beginning to think his aim is to add as many anti-Russian stuff as possible and to remove as many pro-Russian stuff as possible. (I'm not trying to deliberately attack him, but I just want to say what I am actually beginning to think after seeing his edits on the Ukraine crisis-related stuff.) IMO his edits can seriously upset any editor who tries to be neutral. And he keeps pushing them in, keeps reverting people who try to stop him. I seriously hope some admin takes a closer look at Volunter Marek's editing patterns. Just look at his edits and think, "1. Did he add something against Euromaidan or something good about Yanukovich or Russia just once. Did he? 2. Why does he like to call people who are against Euromaidan nazis: [8], [9], [10], [11]? (It's, like, the first thing he does in any article.)" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

• It is difficult to take seriously allegations of POV pushing from an editor whose username is "Moscow Connection". BMK (talk) 16:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

You mean that's beyond your ken? See how easy it is to do stuff like that, so how about focusing on content rather than usernames?B01010100 (talk) 20:55, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Admins will see this Volunteer Marek's edit: [12]. Admins, please, just think, "What does the editor actually do on Wikipedia? Are all of his edits look somehow the same? Is it someone who actually expands Wikipedia, who writes good articles, who actually wants to make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia?" --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is pretty clear that you guys are warring over the Euromaiden/Ukraine issue and are dragging the drama here. Neither side is in the right here in terms of attacks, but the dispute resolution page is probably the best bet for this discussion, as both sides have rather strong opinions here. Moscow Connection, I think you are going in the right direction, but this isn't the place to do it. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 22:54, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is somewhat hard not to focus on someone who keeps following you around reverting your edits while simply refusing to even read the sources (User:Lvivske goes so far as explicitly defending his practice of not reading the sources before reverting[13]), or the talk pages. There were existing talk page discussions regarding exactly those changes, but does he follow the consensus there or even read them? No. If there is nothing controversial about making edits going against the talk page discussions, then why do we have talk pages in the first place? You say to take it to dispute resolution, but WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE says to go here, which is why i went here. Where exactly should this be taken then? The issue isn't any particular instance of his edits, but the entire underlying pattern of behaviour, which seems like a conduct dispute to me and hence why i took it here. At this time there is simply no point in making any contributions since if they don't fit his POV they'll just get reverted again irrespective of what the sources may or may not say.B01010100 (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. In what you quoted I specifically talked about fact checking, just that its safe to assume if a portion of your sources are junk then the rest likely are too, especially if it's an IP or SP account --Львівське (говорити) 18:31, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

When an editor deliberately introduces text complete with citations and the citations do not support the text, the citations are fake. If an editor has the habit of using fake citations, then it is not very surprising if people check-by-sampling, and revert all the untrustworthy edits as vandalism.--Toddy1 (talk) 18:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Except that's not what has been going on. The editor who first removed the text did not introduce any text, and hence did not introduce fake citations, he removed them.[14] This was only his second edit, so he couldn't have had a habit of such things (his first edit was adding a source to a quotation to comply with WP:BLP). Volunteer Marek then reintroduced the fake citations, even though it should be BRD rather than BRR, giving as reason in his edit summary "restore sourced text" even though he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he was introducing.[15] The only thing going against the edit he reverted was that it was made by an IP-user who happened to be based in Russia. Rather than reverting again i rewrote the text to remove the parts that were not in the source and more accurately represent the source [16] (and subsequent edits), as well as using the talk page to discuss those changes. [17] Volunteer Marek then simply introduced the fake citations again[18], completely ignoring both the talk page discussion and the call to read the source first. It seems, to me, that if anyone is making a habit of using fake citations it would be Volunteer Marek. And it's not like this is an isolated incident, it's a general pattern.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if i have misinterpreted your linked comment, but in the context of the discussion where you made that comment it was Volunteer Marek who kept introducing text not supported by the source by reverting the editor who, rightfully, removed it - thereby showing that he obviously didn't even read the source for the text he kept introducing. It was for that i called him out on blanket reverting others without even reading the sources, which you responded to as sometimes being appropriate. I realize now that i have misinterpreted your comment to some degree, but i presume you can understand the misunderstanding given the context.B01010100 (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like to draw attention at these edits, which introduce Reductio ad Hitlerum-linked car analogy, in violation of WP:SEEALSO (which demands that "The links in the "See also" section should be relevant"). Nazi/Soviet events of 1938 and 1940 aren't related to modern Crimean events. Seryo93 (talk) 05:40, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

"Those who fail to remember history are condemned to repeat it." BMK (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

We may add those parallels as attributed (such as in Reactions section), I won't oppose that. But not in See also. And BTW, quote above can be likewise applied to NATO expansion towards RF borders. "Those who fail to remember history...", so I suggest to avoid WP:SOAPBOXing (which, I admitt that, coming from both sides of 2014 crisis) Seryo93 (talk). 06:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Updated 08:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

NATO? NATO hasn't expanded since 2009, and Ukraine disavowed any intent to join in 2010. I believe the current brouhaha originated over Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU, a non-military association. And in any case, if the Santayana quote draws attention to parallels between Germany's actions prior to WWII and Russia's current actions, what is the parallel you're drawing between Ukraine's associations with NATO and the EU and the situation back then? I see none.

Putin seems stuck in the age-old Russian desire to keep a buffer between itself and Europe, either by the conquests which created the Russian Empire, or Stalin's creation of puppet states after WWII. This need for "security" at the expense of the independence of other countries appears to be a long-established part of hard-line Russian thinking. Failing to point out those obvious facts (through citations from reliable sources, of course) would do a disservice to our readers. BMK (talk) 16:14, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Non-military? Please get your facts straight. The parallel would be the expansion of a hostile military bloc eastwards in violation of the relevant agreement with Russia on that, just like another hostile military bloc's eastwards expansion in WWII. That's the issue with inventing Nazi analogies in wikipedia articles, all you do is open a can of worms.B01010100 (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not (and in fact never, you can see this from my post before!) objected to carefully attributed parallels (look at 2014 Crimean crisis#Commentary for examples). About NATO: I've meant expansion since fall of USSR, which Russia - country, that dissolved its own NATO - views as a hostile encirclement (see also Cordon sanitaire). Either way, parallels can be found for anything. Seryo93 (talk) 17:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC) Upd: 17:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Please don't change the contents of a comment after it's been responded to. IN this case it makes my response look provocative, instead of responsive to yours. BMK (talk) 18:40, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Ok, sorry. Seryo93 (talk) 06:21, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The Warsaw Pact dissolved itself, and the Soviet Union really didn't have any choice in the matter, so there's no reason to give them props for that And what of the Collective Security Treaty Organisation that succeeded it? That Russia is now less powerful than the old Soviet Union was is a fact of life, and certainly fuels the Russian paranoia and loss of self-respect that appear to be part of Putin's motivations - but, here again, the rebuilding of Germany's self-regard was one of the factors that entered into the provocation of WWII, and, again, the Santayana quote is pertinent. No one is saying, I don't think, that the situations are exactly the same, but one rarely comes across two world-historical circumstances that are so closely paralleled as these two are. BMK (talk) 18:18, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

See here (remark about Gorby claims - but this is logical consequence of "unwritten promise"). Anyway, I'm not opposed to statement that "Many compared X to Y...[refs]", as in 2014 Crisis commentary section. Seryo93 (talk) 06:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Sharing a POV is not an excuse to have it included where it obviously doesn't belong.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

B01010100, Seryo93, Petr Matas: I suggest you look into this: [19].
(I'm not sure, but it looks like the person (under a different account name) has already been banned from the Eastern European topics for participation in a coordinated anti-Russian campain on Wikipedia. As I understand, the edit I linked suggests going to WP:AE to enforce the decision. --Moscow Connection (talk) 14:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The original case can be found here [20] (the old user name is Radeksz). The topic ban was for a year [21] but has been rescinded by motion [22], and even if it wasn't rescinded it would've passed now anyway. So there isn't anything to enforce at this time, however point 4 of the motion should be relevant.B01010100 (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

@B01010100: Where is this point 4? Could you provide a link? (By the way, I probably won't be able to do anything myself, but I want to help other editors who might want to do something about the problem.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Moscow Connection (talk • contribs) 11:54, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe that he meant the 4th supporting vote of this motion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It is very easy to get caught in edit warring with VM, it happened to me as well. You have to be very careful. It is also useful to focus on one thing at a time in the discussion. — Petr Matas 16:37, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

That's hardly suprising, edit warring is after all one of his proclaimed methods to keep the content the way he likes it.[23].B01010100 (talk) 20:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

This still going on? Guys, as flattered as I am to be the subject of your discussion, you do realize that you are basically talking to yourselves? The uninvolved editors, Ktr101 , Ncmvocalist, BMK and a few others, commented above and I think that's pretty much all there is to say. So how about closing this and the few of you that have axes to grind behave yourself in the future? Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I have a suggestion for both of you. Are you overlapping in the areas that you edit or does it look like one is following the other? I suggest that one or the other has a go at editing a topic that the other would seemingly never touch, if the other party starts editing the same area then a problem is clear cut there. If I had a dispute problem that's what i'd take a look at doing. MM (I did the who in the whatnow?) ^{(I did this! Me!)} 21:39, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek works hard to fix NPOV problems on topics which are besieged by pov-pushers and single-purpose accounts. AN/I threads like this aren't a sign of actual misdeeds, they're a sign that VM's work is effective. bobrayner (talk) 09:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I have edited with Volunteer Marek on quite a few articles and their edits have been exclusively from a WP:NPOV standpoint. Furthermore, I have seen them frequently confront editors who are trying to push their POV into articles. I highly doubt they are inserting "POV-slanted original research" to the article, at least, looking at the evidence provided, I don't see any question of it happening here, and I suggest that this ANI is closed --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 22:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron

Hiya, earlier this month, User:JohnValeron promised to check all of my edits; he stated: As far as I am concerned, you have zero credibility as a Wikipedia editor, and I shall henceforth independently confirm and where appropriate challenge whatever you contribute to this article. This comment was made due to a soon-to-be-explained misunderstanding, as well as his lack of knowledge about what is contained in RS regarding the subject matter.

My edits are followed so closely that yesterday I was unable to fix my edits as I developed a new section, running into 3 edit conflicts as he somewhat frantically made changes to the work seconds after I hit "save page". I asked him to give me some space, due to the edit conflicts, to which he replied Truthfully, Petrarchan47, as an editor you are a butcher. If you'd do a half-decent job I wouldn't have to correct so much...In my experience at Wikipedia, your ineptitude is singular.

In my experience at WP, small technical errors like those he pointed out are fixed quietly by others, or discovered quickly by the offending editor. Usually when I add new content, it takes a few edits to get all the glitches out. I've never been faulted for this before, let alone called inept. Regarding the drama and various issues he brought to the Snowden talk page yesterday, today he does not seem keen to explain himself, saying he "doesn't respond well to badgering". He does not engage on his talk page, either.

He has also made a comment about "our Hong Kong editor" but will not explain who he is speaking of, how he knows this editor's location nor why he is bringing this information to the talk page.

(Quick history: the Snowden page has been quite a hotbed of edit warring since December. John Valeron came in about half-way through and we don't actually have much history between us, so I am not sure where this level of hostility is coming from.) petrarchan47tc 04:18, 27 April 2014 (UTC) (*edited at 5:17)

• Another questionable comment was added today in the "quid pro quo" section below: [Petrarchan47 is] the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. This outrageous claim was apparently based on the fact that I thought the date was May 2cd rather than the 4th. petrarchan47tc 07:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

It is 100% unacceptable to refer to someone as "a butcher" or "your ineptitude" - no matter the quality of your edits (which, by the way, you need to use the "Show Preview" button a little more in order to avoid issues because they are somewhat poor). There is also a fine line between validly using the "show contributions" of another editor, and wikistalking - and John appears to be on the wrong side of that line the panda ₯’ 14:16, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Because this will be likely used against me in the future, would you consider amending your comment to reflect whether you checked a selection of my edits, or as I assume, is your comment ("somewhat poor") referring only to this one section/incident? I accept that it may have been an off-day, and there were more glitches than usual, however, one could interpret your comment as a general statement about my editing, so I just wanted to clarify this. petrarchan47tc 22:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

DangerousPanda, I appreciate your input, but please let me provide some background. Although Petrarchan47's preceding post describes the page Edward Snowden as "a hotbed of edit warring since December," she has lately attempted to sanitize her own central role in these hostilities by portraying herself as having "sought peace over all else for the last few months."[24] However, as I replied to her post three days ago, "The notion that you are a peacemaker at the Edward Snowden article or its Talk page is preposterous. You are resolutely proprietary and consistently combative."[25] An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out. Day in and day out, Petrarchan47 makes war, not peace.

Petrarchan47 acknowledges that she and I "don't actually have much history between us," which is true. But the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions, eventually sucked me in. In the heat of anger, I lashed out, calling her a butcher and castigating her ineptitude. For that I am sorry. I apologize to Petrarchan47 and to the entire Wikipedia editorial community. I will henceforth strive to keep my temper in check.

But, DangerousPanda, you are totally wrong in endorsing Petrarchan47's unfounded and offensive accusation against me for Wikihounding. The facts are these:

• 5 June 2013 – Snowden/NSA story explodes in worldwide news media.

• 00:38, 10 June 2013 – just five days later, I post my first edit to Wikipedia's Snowden page.[26]

• 14 April 2014 – The Washington Post and The Guardian are jointly awarded the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for coverage of the Snowden/NSA scandal.

• 17:10, 20 April 2014 – six days later, having noticed comments in online social media mistakenly asserting that Glenn Greenwald won this prize—which is awarded to news organizations, not to individual journalists—I became curious as to whether or not Wikipedia's editors had recognized that distinction. Visiting the Greenwald page, I discovered otherwise, and posted appropriate edits to clarify the matter.[27]

• 17:14, 20 April 2014 – after finishing my Greenwald edits, I proceeded immediately to the Wikipedia page for Laura Poitras, Greenwald's closest collaborator in the Snowden saga, where I executed similar edits to clarify that Poitras, like Greenwald, did not personally win the Pulitzer prize.[28]

• 20:36, 21 April 2014 – I likewise edited the Wikipedia page for Ewen MacAskill, a British journalist who also collaborated with Greenwald & Poitras on the early Snowden reporting.[29]

My editing of the respective Wikipedia page for each of three journalists closely associated with covering the Snowden scandal was a natural outgrowth of my longstanding interest in Snowden, dating back to 10 June 2013.

Yet Petrarchan47 now smears me with a spurious charge of Wikihounding for doing something innocuous and purely coincidental to her own contributions to two of those three pages. (She has never edited the MacAskill page.)

This, DangerousPanda, is 100% unacceptable. I am not guilty of Wikihounding, and you are wrong to say so. JohnValeron (talk) 17:40, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You say you're not guilty of wikihounding, but right here, in this very thread, you accuse Petrarchan of "making war, not peace" and referring casually to "the sinkhole of her edit warring, evidenced by frequently and peremptorily reverting particular editors' contributions" for which you provide no evidence. An apology is nice, but you undermine the presumption in your good faith by making such statements. Coretheapple (talk) 19:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, please advise: what evidence would you accept of Petrarchan47's edit warring since June 9, 2013, when she first graced Wikipedia's Edward Snowden page? As I wrote above, "An unbiased review of the Snowden edit history will bear me out." Did you bother to familiarize yourself with that history before pronouncing me guilty of Wikihounding? Given the quickness of your response here, and considering the large volume of edits to that page over the past eleven months, I seriously doubt it. JohnValeron (talk) 19:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

So your position is that people commenting on ANI threads have the burden of proving the allegations made in them, whereas the people who make those allegations don't? They can just make accusations without a shred of evidence (such as a history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one)? That's a new one. Coretheapple (talk) 19:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, as a first stab at submitting the evidence you demand, I found three pertinent comments by user DrFleischman, posted earlier this year at User talk:Petrarchan47, relating specifically to Petrarchan47's unfounded accusations of POV pushing at the Edward Snowden page (emphasis added):

• I believe that Petrarchan truly does feel "batted around" but that is not a reason for him/her to accuse me of "high school girl behavior" and being here to "play games" rather than to "write articles." And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If you follow Petrarchan's history with me and others you'll see we're way, way, way beyond AAGF territory.

00:46, 6 February 2014

• [replying to user Gandydancer] We're talking about Petrarchan's conduct here, not mine. WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF are universal policies/guidelines that apply regardless of whom you're dealing with. I think I'm on safe ground saying that you've been spared from Petrarchan's wrath because he/she sees you as having a similar POV.

04:50, 6 February 2014

• [addressing Petrarchan47] Sure, I'll give one example, the one that led to your insistence on me answering this question. In your response to some of Brian Dell's (apparently good faith) arguments you failed to address most of his arguments beyond, "Please stop POV pushing," and in the same comment you wrote, " [I am officially 100% EXHAUSTED by Bdell555.]". I found your conduct unacceptable, and I believe many or most other Wikipedians would as well. Your near constant sighs and groans (literally) about being too tired to deal with your critics and your near constant accusations of POV-pushing seem never-ending despite my repeated requests that you stop. You clearly have a tin ear. I'll say it one last time, and then, as you request, I won't edit your user talk again (except for mandatory notices).

21:47, 6 February 2014

Coretheapple, as I continue gathering evidence of Petrarchan47's edit warring and often toxic relations with her fellow Wikipedians, I'd appreciate it if you refrained from putting words in my mouth, as you did in your preceding comment by stating my "position" in the least accurate way possible so as to ridicule me. JohnValeron (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Those are just accusations against this editor. Doesn't prove a thing. I've been accused of everything up to and including kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Do you feel I should be extradited to New Jersey? Coretheapple (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

"Doesn't prove a thing." This from one of Wikipedia's most notorious inquisitors when comes to COI allegations. You may be sympathetic to Petrarchan's POV, thinking her McCarthyite anti-COI campaign is consistent with yours but are you aware that she goes a step further with her beware infiltrating government agents line? This after Mastcell had already tried to get her to back away when she was trying to finger Wikipedian Dr. Fleischman as a federal agent? Maybe that's too much bad faith assuming even for you, @Coretheapple? In any case on April 8 Petrarchan went 6RR in less than two and a half hours on the Edward Snowden article edit warring with JohnValeron and I and John and I let it go rather than take Petrarchan to an admin noticeboard thinking she'd be more likely to change her edit warring ways if shown mercy. Petrarchan then turns around and takes John to this noticeboard! It's right out of the Parable of the unforgiving servant. We obviously should have gotten Petrarchan blocked at the time since editors like you are making an issue out of "...history of edit warring blocks, which Petrarchan doesn't have, not even one." We apparently need to change our tactics with edit warriors like Petrarchan and get them blocked as soon as they violate 3RR given what editors like you make out of "clean" block histories.--Brian Dell (talk) 21:50, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple, since you asked, I'll answer for the record: I wouldn't consign anyone—not even Petrarchan47—to New Jersey. JohnValeron (talk) 21:56, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, as we wend our merry way through this delightful WP:ANI adjudicating my alleged QUESTIONABLE COMMENTS, cherish this Pearl of Wisdom from Petrarchan47: "The thing is, you can't edit articles around here for very long without coming into contact with hardcore POV pushers and pure, unadulterated jerks." 20:13, 18 February 2014 Submitted here for entertainment purposes only. JohnValeron (talk) 22:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And a comment of extraordinary accuracy. Coretheapple (talk) 22:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You certainly have chutzpah, @Coretheapple. You declare in this thread that Petrarchan's got a clean edit warring record when you've participated in edit warring noticeboard complaints involving her trying to get her off. I note one gem of a comment in particular: " Coretheapple and I are two wiki-friends of Petrarchan47 that are concerned for HER health. Being brought in front of the Admin Noticeboard can be stressfull." So stressful! Yet Petrarchan bring someone else "in front of the Admin Noticeboard", well, that just's business!--Brian Dell (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Well actually I'm monitoring this board because I'm following another thread, so I dropped in on this one and another and boy! am I being yelled at. Talk about stress. It's terrible. Coretheapple (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You could relieve yourself from the stress by declining to nod along when Petrarchan complains of "hardcore POV pushers" given that when IRWolfie noted that Petrarchan was, yet again, trying to battle what she thinks is a "large conspiracy" by "fighting the good fight against US Corporations" and "insert[ing] highly polemic statements" at that time you were all about not worrying about whether there was any POV pushing and just focusing on whether your "wiki-friend" could beat an edit warring charge on technicalities. I'll also note that while you trumpet Petrarchan's flawless block record (and try to justify all her COI attacks), when SpectraValor took her editing to the edit warring noticeboard she got off because the complaint was apparently a few hours stale. Yet another editor started a case on the 3RR noticeboard and Petarchan was found guilty of a 3RR violation but was again let off. There's nothing to be seen here, according to you.--Brian Dell (talk) 00:08, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm seeing a lot of mud-slinging directed at her, doing a good deal to prove her original point. Coretheapple (talk) 00:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You demanded "evidence" Petrarchan is an edit warrior and I pointed out that just within the last three weeks she went 6RR in less than 3 hours and subsequent to avoiding a block there got taken to the edit warring noticeboard by another editor where an admin found that "Petrarchan47 violated WP:3RR". This thread could have been shorter had you let us know earlier that you would be dismissing the evidence you ask for as "mud-slinging" since we would have known your request for evidence was not to be taken seriously.--Brian Dell (talk) 01:25, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

This thread would have been even shorter if you hadn't tried to divert attention from the real issues with mud-slinging and character assassination. Coretheapple (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue here is Valeron's behaviour at the Snowden talk page, and the disruptive hostility. If bringing up anything Fleischman once said is supposed to justify comments made yesterday about my ineptitude as an editor, or the wiki-hounding, I fail to see the connection.

It should be noted that Dr Fleischman, shortly before leaving Wikipedia last month, admitted that Brian Dell's position - the kernel of the 3 month edit war - is untenable. Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell; he came up against the exact same difficulties I had been complaining about. Dr F took BDell555's side immediately in the edit war, and regretted it later. In the end though, the POV warriors, not RS, won the day. The Lede to Edward Snowden now contains a SYNTH account of Snowden's passport/Russia saga rather than the simple account given by countless RS (that Snowden was stranded due to the US' revocation of his passport) because Brian Dell exhausted me completely. petrarchan47tc 22:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Doc is an ally of yours, is he? That's why he asked Mastcell to do something about you? "Dr F essentially admitted that I was, in fact, right to have been exasperated by Dell" Is that so? Yet after you claimed to be "officially 100% EXHAUSTED" (elsewhere saying my comments were simply too extensive for you to bother reading) Doc's reply was that "This "you are exhausting" talk is destructive, non constructive, and is contrary to the spirit of the project" and Doc specifically addressed you.--Brian Dell (talk) 22:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

And MastCell responded by saying that he didn't want to touch the case. The diffs I left show that after more information, Dr F progressed from blindly aligning himself with you, to becoming completely exacerbated as well and leaving WP. Before he did, he told Gandydancer: Btw, you and Petrarchan are probably in stitches over my recent interactions with Brian Dell at Talk:Edward Snowden, ad you have a right to be. Now that Brian's putting me through the ringer I certainly understand your frustration and "exhaustion." Then again while you may have been fully justified in feeling the way you did, IMO that didn't justify you expressing it to Brian, which was inflammatory and uncivil, even if honest. In any case, my reason for bringing this up isn't to justify my involvement; rather, just the opposite. If I had been actively participating in that discussion (rather than passively observing) I would have better appreciated what you and Petrarchan had been dealing with and I probably would have kept my mouth shut. So, in hindsight, I'm sorry for that indiscretion. Fleischman (talk) 05:03, 10 March 2014 petrarchan47tc 23:13, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 may now claim to be fast friends with DrFleischman, but it wasn't always so. A mere six weeks ago she posted this to Doc's user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…."

Sound familiar? Yep, it's Petrarchan47's standard charge of Wikihounding. In March, DrFleischman was "following" Petrarchan47 around Wikipedia due to his "obsession" with her. Now it's April, Doc has made no edits for 30 days, and so it's my turn to stand accused. After all, Petrarchan47 has got to have someone Wikihounding her. If not the obsessed Doctor, then I guess yours truly will do in a pinch. "This is harassment!" Maybe so. But who, pray tell, is harassing whom here? JohnValeron (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps we can close out this thread by quoting from said fast friend: "Petrarchan47, it is time to drop this cowardly and disruptive witch hunt once and for all."--Brian Dell (talk) 23:47, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I've mostly been a interested bystander on the Snowden talk page. I'll just comment that this noticeboard is for reporting and discussing incidents that require the intervention of administrators. Generally that means you need to ask for something specific, like a block, and give evidence that the requested action is required, for example three warnings on the user's talk page concerning a blockable offense, backed up by links to the offending edits. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:57, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced

I generally consider myself to be an editor who tries to avoid all sorts of drama as far as possible. However, ever since I've started editing the Edward Snowden page, it has become very clear to me that this is one of those articles any sane editor would want to avoid at all costs. In fact, I've practically given up trying to make it look more like a biography than a battleground. I don't know what motivates some people to keep pushing a particular POV for so many months and I have to admit I do admire your determination to achieve whatever aims you have here, but I'm fully amazed that you don't even try to hide your POV.

Can we at least agree that labelling a living person as "narcissistic" on his biography, even quoting someone who did so, is extremely unconstructive? But at least this is better than turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm.

Although I think JV is a highly motivated editor, his lack of adherence to WP:BLP and his conduct towards other editors, and more importantly, his general attitude towards the subject of this biography is a serious cause for concern. -A1candidate (talk) 01:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect to what you say is "most important," just what sort of "general attitude" towards Mr Snowden would you like to see? I take it that it would not be Hillary Clinton's--Brian Dell (talk) 01:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, please clarify your second paragraph, in which you link to the same diff for both "labelling a living person as narcissistic" and "turning the entire article into an NSA quote farm." I honestly don't understand how you can construe a single comment by former NSA Director McConnell, reliably sourced to New York magazine, as constituting an NSA quote farm. JohnValeron (talk) 01:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, A1candidate, if my behavior is such "a serious cause for concern," why have you waited until now to bring that to my attention—and in this highly adversarial context? I reckon you just like a good ambush. JohnValeron (talk) 01:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

@Bdell555 - An attitude that is in line with building a biography instead of fighting a battle would be more than welcome. For starters, how about not trying to remove reliably sourced information from Snowden while replacing his quotes with goveernment issued-statements? @JohnValeron - The fact that you use words like "ambush" is very telling of your attitude. Both of you obviously have a POV (you don't even try to hide it), this is something that I've long felt needed to be addressed. I always avoid drama, so this is going to be my last reply. -A1candidate (talk) 02:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

A1candidate, the fact that you stage an ambush only to turn tail and run is very telling of your attitude. JohnValeron (talk) 02:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on edits and ideas, not on editors'. Your comment above verges on a personal attack. Dial it down, please. BMK (talk) 19:41, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

What really matters is making sure Edward Snowden Hagiography is enforced

Note: I'm not indenting because my response applies to both the overall section Questionable comments by User:JohnValeron and its subsection What really matters is making sure WP:BLP is enforced. Also, thanks to admin Dennis Brown and user Beyond My Ken for pointing out that my subtitle (obviously a parody of A1candidate's subtitle) should not be formatted so as to appear in the TOC.

As the foregoing discussion demonstrates, at the heart of this post by Petrarchan47 to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents is what user A1candidate identifies as my "attitude" towards Edward Snowden. In her edit warring over the past 10 months, Petrarchan47 has exemplified the politically correct attitude of blind partisanship in favor of Snowden. Moreover, she has acted as bully and enforcer, peremptorily exercising innumerable reverts to disrupt the attempts of other editors to provide balance. Shamelessly seeking to go beyond that and punish editors who have taken issue with her, last month she targeted DrFleischman, posting to his user talk page: "Why are you following me to articles completely unrelated to anything besides, I have to assume, your obsession with me? This is harassment…." Now, having disposed of DrFleischman (who has made no edits at Wikipedia for over 30 days), Petrarchan47 turns her sights on me, taking to this page to foster the impression that I have been Wikihounding. Her success in this smear is evidenced by the very first reply to her initial post, from DangerousPanda, who applied the term "wikistalking" to me.

No doubt the pro-Snowden partisans have the numbers to block and even ban me. But until then, I will not be intimidated. I shall continue to resist all attempts by A1candidate and Petrarchan47 to enforce their hagiography of Edward Snowden. I shall rely instead on Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy, which states in pertinent part, "Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight." JohnValeron (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have glossed over the part about due weight. One person calling Snowden narcissistic does not merit including the term in the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:51, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

HandThatFeeds, as explained in Wikipedia's due weight policy, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." In determining which viewpoint is significant in each instance, a Wikipedia editor must consider overall context, not just the particular report. For example, if an otherwise reliable but left-leaning, pro-Snowden publication runs a piece that includes 1,000 words of direct quotations from professional partisans such as Snowden lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, offset by 100 words from Hillary Clinton criticizing Snowden, Wikipedia is not required to reflect these opposing viewpoints in proportion to their numerical value. Rather, editors mush exercise judgment. The mere fact that a former U.S. Secretary of State, U.S. Senator and First Lady publicly disputes Snowden makes her words more significant than the utterly predictable, canned retorts of longtime Snowden shills, whose unchanging views are already amply represented in Wikipedia's Snowden article.

As for the specific example to which you allude, in the Motivations subsection, we quote former NSA director and current Booz Allen Hamilton vice chairman Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic," reliably sourced to New York magazine. What you conveniently overlook, HandThatFeeds, is its placement near the end of a 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus our paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. In a subsection devoted to his motivations, that focus is entirely appropriate. However, in this context, it is equally appropriate to quote a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations.

Due weight does not require excluding significant minority viewpoints. JohnValeron (talk) 15:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Significance is the key here. Show that Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint, and you'd have a point. As it is, you really don't, and WP:WEIGHT is against you. Hagiography is definitely to be avoided, but so are unsupported POV opinions expressed only by a small number of people. BMK (talk) 17:47, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, Snowden being narcissistic is a significant viewpoint not because a large number of people have expressed it, but because of the prominence of who did express it: a former NSA director and current vice chairman of the firm for which Snowden worked as a contractor and where he sought employment expressly for the purpose of stealing more secret US Government documents to leak. "My position with Booz Allen Hamilton granted me access to lists of machines all over the world the NSA hacked," Snowden told the South China Morning Post on June 12, 2013. "That is why I accepted that position about three months ago." JohnValeron (talk) 18:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Editors could choose to quote McConnell because he's a prominent person; on the other hand the nature of his prominence in this case makes him a particularly unreliable source. Specifically, his crude characterization of the psychological motivations of a whistleblower are made in an unavoidably political context: they're certainly not reliable, and arguably unhelpful. We're not required to quote a famous person every time they open their mouths. -Darouet (talk) 18:36, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Placing McConnell's statement in the "reaction" section would be more reasonable, as it wouldn't purport to give readers special insight on Snowden's motivations. -Darouet (talk) 18:38, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Darouet, McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is properly contextualized in the Motivations subsection. The reliable source in this instance is New York magazine, not McConnell. He is quoted here not because he's famous, but because he's a former NSA director and current vice chairman at Booz Allen Hamilton. In both those capacities, he brings an insider's knowledge and expertise to bear on Edward Snowden. To exclude McConnell's viewpoint merely because you personally disagree with it is unsupported by Wikipedia policy. JohnValeron (talk) 19:24, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and as a former NSA director he's about as neutral about Snowden as an ex-grunt is about the Marine Corps. It's irrelevant that he's quoted by a reliable source, what's relevant is whether his view of Snowden is shared by others without a connection to and history with the Agency. BMK (talk) 19:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Rubbish. If Wikipedia required editors to quote ONLY neutral sources, we'd have to eliminate every quotation attributed to Snowden's lawyers Jesselyn Radack and Ben Wizner or journalistic enablers such as Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras, to mention just four of many such pro-Snowden speakers. The article would be reduced to 20% of its existing length. JohnValeron (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I do believe that McConnell's statement may be notable: as a reader I could benefit from knowing what the man said even if I disagree. However, McConnell is an overtly hostile party and not a reliable when describing Snowden's motivations, which is why I think his comments fit better in "Reactions". -Darouet (talk) 22:33, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Drama and POV pushing

This drama pushes good editors away from the Snowden page. It is aimed at anyone wanting to add RS that implicates the US government in Snowden's 'choice' for asylum in Russia, and essentially anyone who disagrees with the edits of Valeron or Dell.

For instance, John Valerion had these comments about editors today:

• "At 20:40, 30 April 2014‎, User:A1candidate attempted to hijack the editorial process" *
• "Another Edit Warrior Parachutes In - Beyond My Ken thus attempts to backdoor his way into control of the Snowden article without posting a single comment at the Snowden Talk Page...This arrogant, willful behavior even ignores BMK's own admonishments to editors of other articles, whose work he has undone with a warning to Discuss on talk page, Do not revert without a consensus to do so. Clearly, Beyond My Ken is one of those Do As I Say, Not As I Do edit warriors." *

I addressed the now 5-month edit war here, for some context. Brian Dell's friend User:DrFleischman said it well: "There is consensus that "stranded" is reliably sourced and appropriate for the lead." and "When you're disputing an account made by dozens and dozens o[f] reputable news sources, you've got to start asking yourself, are you trying to build an encyclopedia or are you trying to promote a fringe conspiracy theory instead?" More on that is here: Retelling of the passport story.

The Snowden page has been taken over by POV pushers. Here is a discussion for more insight. A1Candidate to Dell: "you seem to be more interested in pushing a particular POV instead of improving the article as a whole. A large portion of your edits appear to be related to Russia, Russia, and more Russia. We don't know for sure whether the Kremlin is behind Snowden's flight, as you have been claiming all along. While I do think it's a plausible theory, it's nothing more than mere speculation." Please see this Snowden Talk section for more.

Today, Dell and Valeron are using Business Insider and their report on a Wikileaks tweet to support their contention that Snowden chose to go to Russia, as opposed to what RS states over and over, very clearly: Snowden was stuck in Russia due to the US' revocation of his passport (RS listed here).

Last week, Snowden's entire accolades section was reduced by John Valeron to this. Here is the talk page discussion where I explain that to cut only his awards, squishing them to two unreadable paragraphs without condensing any other sections, is POV. Valeron says that Snowden's awards "all seem equally unmeritorious". Valeron notes that he does not find the article to need condensing, so his only reasons for this editing are POV, it would seem.

He also removed a quotation cited to Snowden, though his edit summary was: "reword so as to not imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources". Again, the edit serves the US government, but not Wikipedia.

He states: "I am participating here in good faith with the object of providing much-needed balance to th[e Snowden] article, which is overly sympathetic to its controversial subject." When asked to specifically point out how the Snowden article is biased, Valeron never responds. Instead Brian Dell pops in with another long OR rant.

Valeron has become very hostile, and besides admittedly following my edits at Snowden by seconds, looking for any mistake, he also followed me to Laura Poitras supposedly fueled by the need to set things straight: the Pulitzer was not given to her, but to WaPo and Guardian. However both Glenn Greenwald and Barton Gellman's articles contained the same information and were, until I pointed this out to John, left untouched. Valeron is now {cn} tagging Poitras instead of finding the citations. He tagged "1971"'s release at Tribecca, whilst a simple search finds very good, recent articles about its release.

Brian Dell:

• As recently as April 14, Brian Dell was continuing his edit war, calling cited information OR dreamed up by User:Binksternet and inserting "allegedly" in the Lede.
• Dell continues to push this theme, with the edit summary: ""allegedly" stranded. Legal experts say there is no legal distinction between the airport and the rest of Russia. And no independent journalist verified that he was in the airport transit zone"
• Dell adds "reportedly" to cited information, arguing "supposedly he was stranded. The story does not hold up under scrutiny"
• Earlier Dell declares a Fox news article "demonstrably false" and changes the Lede in this same edit war.
• This is where Dell first appeared with his theory.
• Here is where Dell followed me on this same day to Jimbo's talk page to make some remarks.
• Here is where he followed me to an NSA awareness WikiProject I was working on.
• In this comment at the WikiProject, he justifies making this POV change to the Russ Tice article saying it was done "to more fully inform the reader about the reliability of this "whistleblower." He also states "Over at Talk:Edward_Snowden#Passport I've pointed out the problems with the line that it is the U.S. that has marooned Snowden in Russia, as opposed to Snowden or the Kremlin's own choice. These matters are all concerned with getting the facts right. If you've worked in media you'd know that there is huge popular demand for conspiracy theories." About NSA spying revelations, he states, "The truth is that this charge against the US government has been grossly exaggerated in the media."
• When news broke that there were statements made by some US officials about wanting Snowden dead, Dell had this (predictable) response.

Besides the obvious POV pushing by both of these editors, the hostility aimed at me and others who may oppose or question them needs to be addressed. No WP editor should repeatedly come into contact with this type of behaviour - the aggression is over the top, and better suited for YouTube comment sections. Brian Dell should be topic banned (an IBAN is also a consideration), and an IBAN against Valeron would be very much appreciated. I guarantee the Snowden article and Wikipedia would be better off for it, and would not be damaged in any way by these bans. But I am no expert, the response that would reinstate a sane, peaceful environment at Snowden (read: pre-Dell, pre-Valeron, circa Sep-Nov '13) is likely better determined by administrators. petrarchan47tc 22:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Petrarchan47 has now outdone herself in sheer, malicious perfidy, posting comments that I myself reconsidered and deleted within minutes. Clearly, Petrarchan47 will stop at nothing in her toxic efforts to poison the editorial atmosphere surrounding the Edward Snowden article. JohnValeron (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty fucking ballsy of JohnValeron to accuse me of trying to "control" the Edward Snowden article, when he's made over 100 edits to it in the last week alone (over 300 in the last year), and I've made three edits in total. And to say that I edited without discussion is equally ludicrous, considering that the discussion took place right here on this thread, with his involvement. I suggest that if anyone's trying to "own" the Snowden article, or push a POV into it, it sure as hell isn't me. I also suggest that an admin might like to try to machete their way through the jungle of rapid-fire edits over there to see if some level of protection isn't called for to get things to stop so that reasoned discussion can take place. BMK (talk) 00:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

No reasoned discussion about the Edward Snowden article can take place here, on an adversarial ANI where I stand falsely accused and where my accuser is calling for Brian Dell and me to be banned. Any "consensus" about editing Edward Snowden arrived at within this ANI is illegitimate. The regular editors of the Snowden article do not follow ANI. We follow Talk:Edward Snowden, which is where all editorial discussions rightly belong. JohnValeron (talk) 00:57, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit, consensus is consensus, and it remains so even when it goes against you, and no matter where it takes place. Usually the article talk page is the best place for consensus discussions to take place, but when someone tries to dominate the discussion there it may have to take place in other venues. Besides, you've misread my comment above - if an admin were to fully protect the article - which I think would be fully justified by the volume and speed of the editing there, which indicates knee-jerk responses rather than well-considered action - then the reasoned discussion I was speaking about should take place there and not here.

At this point, however, editors have clearly despaired of getting any balance there while you and others continue to duke it out, and have come here for relief. Having felt the (temporary) sting of your displeasure, I understand precisely what they're talking about - you're trying to browbeat people into submission because you disagree with their POV (or what you perceive as their POV, which may well be mistaken), and that makes your editing as bad as theirs is, if they are also pushing a POV, as you claim. I still think temporary full protection would help, as would your thinking before you act. 04:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree, full protection and Admin oversight for a while is a worthwhile consideration. petrarchan47tc 18:42, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• User:Jehochman once filled this role at the Snowden page. We also spoke in January about bringing the article to GA status. It might be worth checking into these options as a way to cool the current edit warring and hostility. petrarchan47tc 23:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I personally don't edit the Snowden article because, to be frank, my feelings about him are fairly negative. I think that's the best course of action in dealing with a BLP in which one holds a negative POV - stay away. JohnValeron might want to consider doing that too. Coretheapple (talk) 10:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them. Editors, while naturally having their own points of view, should strive in good faith to provide complete information, and not to promote one particular point of view over another. As such, the neutral point of view does not mean exclusion of certain points of view, but including all verifiable points of view which have sufficient due weight.

Wikipedia's due weight policy explains, "Neutrality requires that each article fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." As I pointed out above, former NSA director Mike McConnell's reference to Snowden as "narcissistic" is reliably sourced to New York magazine. McConnell served as U.S. Director of National Intelligence during the period when Snowden was employed by the CIA, which reports to the DNI. After leaving that post, McConnell rejoined Booz Allen Hamilton to lead the firm's intelligence business, and was vice chairman throughout Snowden's brief (less than three months) tenure as a BAH employee. These high-level positions give McConnell's perspective on Snowden significant weight. Moreover, our now-deleted quotation of McConnell provided the only balance to an otherwise self-serving 1,074-word subsection that includes 566 of Snowden's own words (53% of the total), plus paraphrasing of his views not directly quoted and statements by his enabler Laura Poitras. By excluding a single sentence—all of 23 words—spoken by a prominent critic of Snowden's motivations, you are totally suppressing a verifiable point of view that has sufficient due weight. In violation of policy, you are promoting Wikipedia's unbalanced cheerleading on behalf of Edward Snowden. JohnValeron (talk) 15:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

McConnell can hold any opinion about Snowden he wants, and can express them to anyone he wants to, but he's not qualified to discuss Snowden's psychological makeup in our article because he has no training or expertise in that area. He can say that Snowden is a traitor or that he's damaged his country or that he ought to be clapped in irons or that he's selfish or immature or whatever, because these are things anyone can say about anybody, but when he says that Snowden is a "narcissist", he's making a psychological evaluation, and he is not qualified to do that, and he can't be in our article expressing that opinion except, perhaps, as an example of people's reactions to Snowden's actions. BMK (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Dictionary.com provides two definitions of narcissist:

1. a person who is overly self-involved, and often vain and selfish.

2. Psychoanalysis. a person who suffers from narcissism, deriving erotic gratification from admiration of his or her own physical or mental attributes.

Neither Wikipedia's biography of Mike McConnell nor the sentence you seek to suppress in Edward Snowden identifies McConnell as a psychologist or psychiatrist. His opinion of Snowden as a "narcissist" is not a clinical evaluation, and only pro-Snowden editors such as yourself would so willfully and disingenuously misconstrue it. McConnell is using the term in its popular, not medical, sense. Note that Wikipedia quotes Yogi Berra as saying about baseball, "90% of the game is half mental." Are you going to suppress that, too, because Mr. Berra is not a credentialed mental health professional? JohnValeron (talk) 17:01, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Your WP:BATTLEFIELD mentality is showing - I am not "Pro-Snowden". In point of fact I have decidedly mixed feelings about what he did, including my belief that anyone who thinks that their government isn't in some way "spying" on them is a fool, and that such monitoring is, to some degree both necessary and harmless. But you don't know that, because you are, clearly and by your own admission, "anti-Snowden", and because I reverted one of your edits that must make me "pro-Snowden", thus throwing WP:AGF out the window.

I reverted your edit because the guy doesn't have the chops to make that kind of statement and have it appear in a Wikipedia article as a factual reason for Snowden's actions. You want to put in a "responses" section, that's different, the guy is notable and his allowed to have an opinion - he's just not allowed to express that opinion as fact on Wikipedia. You get it? It's the diference between "I think he's a narcissit" and "He did it because he's a narcissist." If you can't see the essential different between those two statements, and the need for the person saying the second one to have the right credentials, then you probably shouldn't be editing here.BMK (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Quid pro quo

Never let it be said that Petrarchan47 does not reward those gallant souls who spring to her defense here at ANI. Vote early and vote often, Wikipedians, for "must-read" commenter Coretheapple as Crony of the Week. JohnValeron (talk) 00:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Admin attention requested: Can I get an admin to give JV an WP:NPA warning? If nothing else, his serious lack of AGF is worrying. BMK (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with your broad argument on the McConnell quote, here, but the last time this came up at AN/I (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding), I got more or less the same impression John has, although I would have expressed it more delicately. That said: John, knock it off. Wholesale snarkiness will only succeed in getting people to blow you off; there's plenty in Petrarchan's editing history, plainly and dispassionately expressed, to build a case against her. Choess (talk) 02:39, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Choess, I appreciate your advice, but I am not the least bit interested in building a case against Petrarchan47. As you imply, and as demonstrated by her shameless use of an Editor of the Week nomination to reward Coretheapple for supporting her in this meretricious ANI, Petrarchan47 is her own worst enemy. JohnValeron (talk) 15:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, now, isn't this enlightening? Following the link provided by Choess, I just read User:Petrarchan47 Serial COI Accusations as Battlegrounding posted to ANI less than a month ago by User:Geogene. It broadens one's perspective on Petrarchan47's generally antagonistic behavior and her contemptuous hostility in particular to editors who do not submit to her supposed authority. And guess who rushed to her support on that occasion? Why, our presumptive Editor of the Week, of course: Coretheapple. What a magnificent team they make! A true credit to Wikipedia. JohnValeron (talk) 15:33, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Dr Fleischman, before leaving WP last month, tried very hard to build a case against me. He went to people angry at me from the BP (Geogene) and March Against Monsanto (SecondQuanitzation/IRWolfie) articles and found willing participants to help find diffs for an eventual ANI. He asked MastCell and Drmies for help, both said no. MastCell has repeatedly said he has respect for me as an editor, and as for my complaints about Geogene (who eventually took me to ANI), he said: "Back in the day, I used to feel like there was a core of clueful editors who would support each other in these kinds of situations, but most of that core has been run off the site or decided they have better things to do than argue interminably with cranks and agenda accounts."

Geogene was canvassed by Dr F, who still has a list of my wrongdoings compiled, and who appeared to be helping Geogene with diffs for her unsuccessful ANI. Geogene came to the BP oil spill articles (where I met Coretheapple, and whom btw, I had been planning to nominate for months) and began making POV changes. Her biggest grievance was with the tremendously well-cited study mentioned in the Lede of Corexit (in this version). To end the edit war there, I slashed the Lede and removed mention of studies. Geogene, who purportedly wanted to help the Project, and improve the Corexit article specifically, has not been seen since. As was obvious from the start, her efforts seemed focused on removing content harmful to BP. Once that was done, there was no interest in actually working on the article, or WP for that matter. I noted that her appearance and frantic editing coincided with the announcement of BP's Clean Water Act trail. I was asked by other editors not to make such connections unless I have proof of COI, so I have agreed to stay silent in the future.

I do not see how that ANI plays into this one, however. Valeron's behaviour should not be tolerated, and there is no case to be made that it is justified by anything I have done, or by anything that has been said about me. The NPOV requirement for editors is not being met in his case, and I think a topic ban should be considered. Just today he was reverted at James R. Clapper and Edward Snowden for non-neutral editing. * * *

Whether my edits to Snowden have been POV has not been proven, nor has a case been made that the Snowden article is biased. I have put in a lot of time and work on that article, and the atmosphere there has driven away everyone else but the anti-Snowden editors. That has been pretty stressful, and is why I have opened this, my first ANI to see whether something can be done to stop this. petrarchan47tc 18:33, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual, Petrarchan47 is lying to promote her punitive crusade to get me banned. The diffs she cites as evidence that "just today" I was reverted, actually date from May 2, 2014. Petrarchan47, who will do anything to get her way, is the most unethical editor I have ever encountered. JohnValeron (talk) 18:46, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

As usual I don't know what day it is. I am the most unethical editor EVER. John's ever-balanced, non-hyperbolic views will save the Pedia one way or another. Thank goodness we've got editors like this around. petrarchan47tc 18:52, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

• Seriously, John, this is the type of "lie" that matters around here. Wouldn't you consider this unethical? petrarchan47tc 00:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I want to say that the accusations pointed at me (again) by user:petrarchan47 have been going on all over Wikipedia for months now and are harassment. They're also lies. We've discussed this on noticeboards and Petra still doesn't understand what that study is about. Even though I haven't been on here for more than a week, she is continuing to provoke me (with the above). I sincerely believe that there are some serious psychological issues with her involving paranoia and a sense of being persecuted by pretty well anyone that disagrees with her, and we cannot fix those problems here, and which make her unsuitable for Wikipedia. I have no doubt that this will eventually get her banned. That's my say. Geogene (talk) 18:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

IBAN for JohnValeron

I have seen too many disruptive actions taken against Petrarchan47 by JohnValeron. This behavior should be addressed by IBAN.
JohnValeron was working on the Chelsea Manning biography and the court case United States v. Manning in the summer and autumn of 2013. In late December 2013, he encountered Petrarchan47 at the Edward Snowden biography, at the Sibel Edmonds biography, and at the article about Global surveillance disclosures (2013–present). Talk page relations were civil at first but by February 2014 the tone was strained, then icy with disdain and hurtful irony: "Wikipedia should permanently lock out all editors except Petrarchan47, whose sole proprietorship would be beyond reproach." By March, JohnValeron was engaged in WP:BATTLEGROUND confrontation, trying to get a rise out of Petrarchan47 by referring back to the "sole proprietorship" comment: "I earnestly hope this meets with approval and does not offend particular editors with an aggravated sense of sole proprietorship over this article." Also: baiting Petrrarchan47 with this comment: "...rest assured that the ever-vigilant Petrarchan47 has undone my revisions in toto." At the end of March JohnValeron was accusing Petrarchan47 of having "paranoid fantasies", and insulting her with the term "schoolmarm"—a sexist putdown intended to stifle discussion. The April 8 comment "petrarchan47 has zero credibility" was a gross attack, a poisoning of the well to remove Petrarchan47 from effective discussion. I suggest that JohnValeron should be given an interaction ban with regard to Petrarchan47. Binksternet (talk) 02:48, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

IMO, given the admission of POV towards the topic, a TBAN could also be considered. petrarchan47tc 08:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose As wondrously premature, and use of a draconian solution, which rarely actually works. A POV is not a "disqualification" but simply an indication that the person must assiduously work towards compromise and accept that others have differing POVs. Collect (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Strongly Support If we can get rid of this problem, I will Die happy, This user has committed Personal Attacks against a single target, just remove contact with that target. Boom, done - Happy Attack Dog (Bark! Bark!) 14:00, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like nothing better than to stop interacting with Petrarchan47. If you could craft an IBAN that did not in effect amount to a topic ban against my editing Edward Snowden, I'd be the first to endorse it. But as a practical matter, it is impossible to avoid this proprietary, pro-Snowden partisan intent upon, as she wrote above, "implicating" the United States Government. Petrarchan47 has singlehandedly made 19% of all 6,106 edits to said article. She has racked up as many edits as the next three most active users combined. She is inescapable and intransigent. Moreover, her domination of Wikipedia's Edward Snowden has long since passed from good-faith stewardship into exclusive ownership, enforced first with haughty reverts and ultimately, as seen here, with vindictive demands that editors who dare to trespass on her turf be banned—under whatever pretext she and her supporters can contrive. Is this any way to run an encyclopedia? JohnValeron (talk) 15:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, Perhaps you would like a TBAN to be kept away from editors who you commit Personal Attacks on? Maybe we could Implement Both and Get 2 birds with one stone? Happy Attack Dog (Bark! Bark!) 14:17, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support Topic Ban on editing Edward Snowden per Binksternet. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I see no basis for an IBAN or a TBAN on JohnValeron. Certainly he has made some uncivil comments, and for those he should be sternly admonished. But that is no basis for a permanent sanction; an admonishment by an administrator should be more than sufficient, and if John ends up re-offending then the issue can be re-examined. I've also seen no evidence that John has had any trouble interacting with those outside of Petrarchan47 and those defending her, and that alone means a TBAN is inappropriate. At the same time, I also feel strongly that this thread should boomerang against Petrarchan47, who seems incapable of working collaboratively with anyone with whom she disagrees on any topic. Plenty of evidence of that, and she has even been warned by an admin on ANI. (If there's sufficient interest in posting evidence against Petrarchan here, please put a note on my user talk, as my wiki bandwidth is extremely low these days.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

NOTE, PLEASE READ: I am deeply disturbed that a large number of my views and comments have been discussed, interpreted, and fought over in this ANI thread by several editors without anyone haven giving me any notice whatsoever. Believe it or not, I still exist despite my current wikibreak. Worse, several of my past contributions and comments have been grossly mischaracterized. I don't want to get into a pissing match about comments made over a week ago so I'll just say, folks, please don't do that again. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 17:02, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose This IBAN does not solve the numerous issues with Petrarchan47's conduct. She mentioned that I recently "disappeared". Yeah--because I can't stand dealing with her horrible personality any longer. She makes editing Wikipedia intolerable. She ought to be site banned forever!! Geogene (talk) 18:08, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Since this thread has now surpassed 9,000 words—far more, in my opinion, than the issue warrants—please let me reiterate something I wrote in my first post here, seven long days and 8,400 contentious words ago.

• In the heat of anger, I lashed out, calling [Petrarchan47] a butcher and castigating her ineptitude. For that I am sorry. I apologize to Petrarchan47 and to the entire Wikipedia editorial community. I will henceforth strive to keep my temper in check.

I trust the admin who resolves this ANI will not overlook those 42 words, and will forgive my lapse in civility. JohnValeron (talk) 18:27, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for Admin: I'd like to take this opportunity here to ask an admin to administer a short-term block on Petrarchan47 for her COI accusation against me in this thread [30] which is part of a much larger pattern of serial COI accusations against me (see, e.g., User:MastCell's talk page), and in which she actually says that she has been asked by other editors to stop this behavior (but apparently is unable to stop). She continues to break the rules while admitting that she knows she is breaking the rules, I find this absurd. Geogene (talk) 22:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Obvious canvassing is obvious Apparently we should all find it a coincidence that two editors, User:Geogene and User:DrFleischman, both suddenly came back to editing after weeks of absence to come to JoshValeron's defense on the same day. Looking at their contribs, Geogene hasn't edited since 23 April (2 weeks 1 day ago) and DrFleischman hasn't edited since 27 March (6 weeks ago). And yet, like Wiki-magic, here they are within an hour of each other. Methinks someone canvassed via email.--v/r - TP 17:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Obvious canvassing is obvious Well, you're wrong. Of course, you'd have no way of knowing that. Geogene (talk) 18:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Of course I'm wrong, because if I'm right then you three are now in violation of WP:MEAT for abusive off-wiki coordination. I couldn't possibly expect you to admit such a thing. But the edits speak for themselves.--v/r - TP 18:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
      • Oh, well, I suppose when I logged in and saw that I could have noticed how recently Fleischman's reply was, anticipated your suspicion, and waited a few hours so that you wouldn't jump to conclusions. But that would be guile, now wouldn't it? Besides, even if I had been responding to an email canvass, my arrival time would have been determined by how often I check my email, which is sometimes not that often. My "canvassed" arrival might have happened at any time after I got your hypothetical email, so your "canvassing" theory doesn't eliminate this coincidence so your logic doesn't lead anywhere. Geogene (talk) 18:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:TParis, if you're alleging that I canvassed DrFleischman, Geogene or anyone else by email, that is an outrageous lie, which I emphatically deny. This is a low blow even for you, TParis—the Wikipedia Administrator who famously doesn't give a fuck. JohnValeron (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very much alleging it. And if you think me not giving a fuck is a novel idea that will outrage or shock anyone, you're seriously mistaken. Feel free to share it with everyone. No one...cares.--v/r - TP 18:50, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I care. JohnValeron (talk) 18:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Ah. So Tparis may not really be ignorant, only involved in a dispute with JohnValeron. I feel so much better now. Geogene (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I've been angry for as long as these accusations have gone for months without even an admin admonishment, but this really takes all. A basic understanding of logic should be required before anyone gets the Tools. But for his education, before he decides to solve more "mysteries" I suggest he read Littlewood's Law [31] and the Post-hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy [32]. Geogene (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

In a discussion on TParis' talk page, I have demanded that he either conduct a SPI or retract his meatpuppet accusation. I don't want him to slink off from his disruptive accusations like he didn't make them. Geogene (talk) 20:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

TP, I don't know what you have against me, but your accusation is completely unsubstantiated and false. You and I have no history so I don't know what your beef with me would be. The fact that an experienced admin would throw out such complete horseshit reflects very poorly on this community and its governance. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

All I have against you are weeks of inactivity and then you suddenly showing up miraculously and within an hour of someone else who has been inactive with the claim that it was a cosmic miracle that you both show up to defend John on the same day. Other than that, I hold no ill-will toward you or anyone.--v/r - TP 01:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess it was a cosmic miracle then. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:59, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Admin attention requested -- I have repeatedly asked User:DrFleischman (here and here) to adhere to WP:POLEMIC by either putting to use or removing his laundry list of my diffs that he is accumulating in his sandbox. He said he was working on a RfU about me, and had low bandwidth suddenly, but would get to it soon. That was six weeks ago. Now he is back, but still refuses to respond to this request. petrarchan47tc 17:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

CFD of Category:Pseudoscientists

Please could some experienced admin(s) keep an eye of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 May 1#Category:Pseudoscientists?

The debate is attracting a lot more participants than I have seen at CFD for some time, and there several suggestions that sock/meat puppets may be swelling the numbers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how much this has to do with this but it may be attracting a lot of editors because of several different discussions referring to Pseudoscience that have popped up lately, here and on DRN. Not entirely sure how related they may be.--Maleko Mela (talk) 23:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - I suspect some people participating in the CFD may have came from the Fringe Theories Noticeboard (diff). Would the result of this CFD count as WP:FALSECON? Probably. -A1candidate (talk) 00:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Unlikely. There are many eyes on this. Guy (Help!) 01:32, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't rule out those who came from FTN. -A1candidate (talk) 01:42, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Probably does, most of them are policy savvy. As to fringe, the idea that the cold war is still going on is waaaaay out there. Guy (Help!) 03:08, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you even read them? How policy savvy are subjective statements such as "The cat is appropriate for some articles and should not be deleted? If you want to convince me that the Cold War is over, you're free to do it at my talk page. -A1candidate (talk) 04:12, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

1. Yes I have.

2. I don't have to,m the consensus view of the relevant professional community is that it ended in the last decade of the 20th Century...

3. Which is relevant because as an advocate of an obviously fringe POV, your snide remarks about FTN are going to be accorded little weight. Guy (Help!) 08:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It was also the consensus view of the relevant professional community for quite some time that the world was flat, that smoking was good for you, etc. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:49, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

And had Wikipedia existed the, we would presumably have reflected that. We weren't. There were no pseudoscientists back then, because we only had the vaguest idea how science should be done: it was really natural philosophy not science. And it was the scientific process that showed the world is not flat, just as it showed that life on earth evolved by natural selection, human behaviour is changing the global climate, and perpetual motion is basically impossible. Guy (Help!) 22:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Had Wikipedia existed in those days, people like Nicolaus Copernicus would have been outnumbered by the hordes who blindly trust the doctrines of the mainstream Catholic Church. There were alchemists back then, just like there are pseudoskeptics today. What obstructed progess in those days was not natural philosophy, but religious doctrine. Likewise, the thing that obstructs progess today is not religious doctrine, but academic dogma based on the mainstream opinions of "experts" and skeptics who pretend to be critical about a certain subject but in fact know little about the natural world. -A1candidate (talk) 03:54, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia would have been absolutely correct to label Copernicus' theory at the time as not accepted by the mainstream of natural philosophers. As he gained adherents, it would then have been mentioned as a theory with growing acceptance among those philosophers, and when it finally received acceptance, our article would be about it, with previous theories being discussed in their historical context, and the people who hung on to them would be described as "fringe". That's because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia, as we define it today, must be by its very nature conservative, because it aims to be as accurate as possible, and out guide to accuracy is acceptance by experts. An encyclopedia does not break ground, it does not introduce new theories, except in the context of how they differ from accepted explanations, it does not attempt to convey "Truth" with a capital "T" only the current state of our knowledge.

Also, you mischaracterize history: the alchemists did not impede the growth of knowledge, they were the primary factor in creating what became the science of chemistry. They weren't "pseudoscientists" because there was no "science" at the time, therefore no "pseudoscience". Yes, they also held beliefs that we now know sent them off into unhelpful territory, but they weren't the bad guys, they were the best we had at that time, and they helped advance the state of our collective knowledge. BMK (talk) 21:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Give it a couple centuries, and today's scientists will probably be viewed the way we view alchemists today. That's just how progress works. When the handful of fringe scientists turn out to have actual, real breakthroughs, with proven and reproducible results covered by mainstream experts and journalists, then those particular scientists will no longer be fringe. -- Atama頭 23:13, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

See WP:BALL. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:21, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Also see Mertonian norms. Tgeorgescu (talk) 23:28, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's my point. We go by what has scientific consensus today. We have no way of knowing what may or may not be valid in the future, we can't predict it, so we have to go by what we know now, however future generations may judge us. -- Atama頭 18:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• CFD closure. Note that I have suggested that the CfD be closed by a 3-admin panel. Discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Panel_to_close_CFD_on_Category:Pseudoscientists. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Pan-Turkist (Pan-Turanist) users invaded several articles with fringe and unreliable content

They bring unreliable changes and false content to many articles. Their edits are against wikipedia policies. List of these users:

• Hirabutor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Su4kin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kleropides (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Radosfrester (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

They infected many articles. User:Hirabutor is a disruptive user. --114.160.71.150 (talk) 21:02, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Since the user did not notify any of the editors, I have put ANI notices on all of the users talk pages. TheMesquito^buzz 22:57, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

User Hirabutor may be disruptive in the IP's mind due to his pro-Turkish edits, but it looks like this user makes use of reliable sources. And as long as he can provide reliable sources without using them purposefully, it is consistent with the behaviour guidelines. If you want to check sources concerning their credibility you can also make use of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. User Kleropides looks almost unbiased, about user Su4kin I have no idea, except that he is more concentrated in genetic/anthropological articles. But, just wait a moment... why putting my name here? At all, I see no signs of a forthcoming Turkish invasion. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 11:26, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Because they're sock puppets (you - the puppet master - and them). Mods must check your ips. --114.160.71.150 (talk) 05:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you have any reasons for this cherry picked assumption, except your prejudice on a certain group of people? Give us some clues so that we can follow your way of thought. If I should be a sock master, can you explain me then why user Hirabutor is active since 21 October 2013, whereas I am active since 30 November 2013? In addition, there are only 4 edits (out of 70) I have in common with your supposed sock users: 1, 2, 3. 4. In case 1 there are 4-6 months between user Hirabutor and me. In case 2 there are nearly 5 months between user Su4kin and me. In case 3 there are 4 months between user Su4kin and me. And finally, the fourth case, its the only one where my edits overlapped with those of user Hirabutor in a short time distance. At last, I suggest that your discomfort results from this article: Turanid race. So, my advice to you is to solve your problem by confronting other users (-by using your account-) with reliable content backing your position instead of suspecting other people. If you are not able to do it, and I say it again with all explicitness, you are completely wrong here. And here you can get help: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 11:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

@ Anonymous IP: Can you tell me how I can become a member of this "Pan-Turanist" invasion? This sounds very interesting to me. --Kleropides (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You're the banned User:Tirgil34. All of you claim that you're Germans from Germany. Germans who are interested in Pan-Turkism/Pan-Turanism and Turkification of wikipedia articles! Your behaviors and your edit patterns are exactly similar to Tirgil34 and his puppets: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tirgil34. --46.143.214.22 (talk) 03:38, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear IP, I am not German and I am not seeing the connection between me and the banned user. But it looks like you have a personal uneasiness with central Asian-related issues. Your Iranian IP-adress perhaps confirms this suspicion. Additionally, it looks like you are interested in a de-Turkification of wikipedia articles. I am sure there are quite more IP's you are currently using for this motive. I would also advise you to refrain from such false reports. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 12:10, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll submit my proofs. It needs a complete subsection. An example is your edits (you and your puppets) on Nart saga. Why you and User:Hirabutor, User:Tirgil34 (his ips, his socks) are too similar to each other, and your are interested to remove same content from Nart saga and insert same content? Your edits on Nart saga is exactly similar to banned User:Tirgil34's edits. Hirabutor is a disruptive editor who inserts Turkish nationalist content in articles. User:Ergative rlt and User:Dougweller found some of his unreliable additions. User:Su4kin's edits on Sarmatians are pro-Turk and not reliable. He did falsification on some other articles too. These are just example of your disruptive edits. Mods must check all of your ips and accounts, because you are related to each other. You and your puppets infected many articles. You play with different accounts, and all of those accounts edit same topics. Don't you agree User:Tirgil34? --114.179.18.35 (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The only point where I can agree with you, dear IP, is that User:Su4kin made unreliable additions at Sarmatians. None of the sources are anywhere near the quality of source required for a section on genetics. The only possibility to include it, is to find a peer-reviewed paper -> Wikipedia:SYNTH. It is apparent that both of you guys act with nationalistic arguments (pro-Turk/Iran doesn't matter) and none of them are in accordance with Wikipedia:TE or Wikipedia:DE (-> Wikipedia:COI). I urgently hope my edit in Nart saga is not your only evidence. And if there is any falsification on some other articles you are cordially invoked to indicate them here. Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 13:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

No. You and User:Hirabutor caused many problems too. Have I submit more proofs? You use systematic POV-pushing. You think that you are very clever? You use multiple accounts for your tactics and goals. Do you think you can escape? You're an example of Good cop/bad cop and Divide and Conquer, but you're not smart enough to do them perfectly. Dear Turk, why you try to Turkify anything you find in wikipedia? Will those "false history" make you GREAT people?! You don't provide anything to defend yourself. Also, why those other 3 users are not here to respond? You and your team (your puppets) have similar targets on wiki. Same articles, same Turkish propaganda. --183.109.68.154 (talk) 11:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Dear IP, let us conclude:

1. I see you are obsessed with Turk-related issues and you have not any hint of evidences for your confusing claims.
2. You have just admitted you are manipulating Wikipedia because you seem to be familiar with so called "tactics", and it is pretty clear that you will make use of them hereafter.
3. I am still not seeing any reason to justify myself in any point you are bringing forward.
4. You are a hardcore ethno-POV'ist and your aim is to ban any Turkic-related object contradicting your own worldview.

Summarizing: from my point of view it is not worth to pay any further attention to this discussion, so, I am done with you. With every single message you are revealing your real purposes. So keep your eyes peeled I will have an eye on you! Radosfrester ^{talk to me} 15:56 9 May 2014 (UTC)

my reaction when I saw this mayhem. --Hirabutor (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Nice puppet game by a banned puppeteer! last edit [33] and activated his account after this report [34]. Same here [35] and then this [36]. Good job! --114.160.71.148 (talk) 04:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

What about me? Did I activated something, too? You forgot me, ain't you?--Kleropides (talk) 17:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon

Mallexikon was blocked on the 29th for edit warring at Traditional Chinese medicine. He had repeatedly tried to insert the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine was a protoscience into the article. Since returning he has found a new source and has resumed trying to incert the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine is a protoscience into the article by writing that Traditional Chinese medicine is a “pre-science” and piping it to protoscience. The source that he has used to do this does not support the claim that Traditional Chinese medicine is a protoscience and Mallexikon was informed of this, but apparently doesn’t care. He has also tried to insert the “protoscience” claim into the Acupuncture article.

However, the larger problem is Mallexikon’s decision to engage in race baiting on Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine. [[37]] And his subsequent decision to engage in taunting when Dominus Vobisdu objected to his remarks about race. [[38]] Mallexikon has apparently decided that “white males” or those he suspects of being white males are not allowed to call Traditional Chinese medicine a pseudoscience.

Editors with racial agendas are notoriously difficult to deal with and Mallexikon’s refusal to get a consensus before reinserting disputed material makes him even more disruptive. I ask that a topic ban be considered. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it is correct to call Mallexikon's comments "race-baiting". For example, his first comment on this included this remark:

• "Why use a source for this at all, since we have so many smart people on WP agreeing on it? And within no time, WP will look exactly like all of us white male tech/science-friendly geeks like it."

So, he is characterizing the majority of Wikipedia editors (including himself) as white, male, tech/science-friendly geeks. And then he says his "Wow, the white/male/tech-friendly assumption really hit a nerve in you, did it?" And he said this on April 29th, the day he was blocked. Nothing since.

First, I'm not sure that this is a mischaracterization of the demographics of Wikipedia editors. And second, he was including himself in his observation. I'm not sure who he is "baiting". Third, aside from these two remarks, I don't see any further comments about whiteness on this talk page (but I haven't looked at his edits to other pages). I think if more incidents of this occur, it is might be worth looking into. But I'm not sure if observing that most editors of Wikipedia are white males really qualifies as having a "racial agenda". Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Liz, Mallexikon was blocked for edit warring. His inappropriate comments to Dominus Vobisdu have not yet been addressed. Also, he has continued to edit problematically after returning from his block.

Mallexikon’s comment to Dominus Vobisdu was an attempt to control another editor through appeal to racial sentiment. Such tactics have no place on Wikipedia as they are an attempt to shut down civil discussion.

I also cannot understand how any reasonable person could deny that “Wow, the white/male/tech-friendly assumption really hit a nerve in you, did it?” is obvious taunting. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 19:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I cannot understand how any reasonable person could deny that this is a pathetic attempt at censorship.Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon’s previous comment in December last year was Everybody's complaining about WP being too white / male / tech-friendly influenced, and everybody's always talking about how incivility should not be tolerated - but obviously that's just talk. Thanks a lot, guys. The edit summary was white / male / tech-friendly WP raising its ugly head. He seems to have a battleground mentality at the Acupuncture related articles when you look at the contributions. QuackGuru (talk) 20:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

After being blocked, Mallexikon is continuing to edit war. After the source was deleted by User:JzG and there was no consensus Mallexikon ignored there was no consensus to restore the source. He repeatably restored the source against CON.[39][40][41][42][43] According to this comment any editor can issue an alert to Mallexikon, with {{Ds/alert}}. QuackGuru (talk) 18:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Nope. Consensus had never been achieved.Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon is one of the few reasonable editors at acupuncture, and by reasonable I mean respectful of sources as well as mindful of NPOV. In my opinion Quack Guru is the most guilty of edit warring at TCM and acupuncture. While Mallexikon has proposed seeking compromise wording, QG and Dominus have refused to take that offer in good faith and instead have focused on him. Its ridiculous. If anyone considers banning Mallexikon I recommend reading a larger sample of talk page discussions.Herbxue (talk) 00:57, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

You also tried to delete the text against CON.[44][45]

Sorry, but consensus had not been achieved, and my attempts at compromise wording were reverted by you without discussion. Mallexikon also attempted compromise wording, but you refused to AGF and only pushed your version of the edit with NO attempt at achieving a consensus. Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Trying to delete well sourced text from the lede at TCM did not work for Mallexikon. So what is the next step. Rewriting the text at the various articles to bring doubt to the term pseudoscience. When the idea is to undermine what the reliable source says by whitewashing the term pseudoscience when you or another editor can't delete it from the lede, that is not a content dispute. That is a battle ground mentality. There is no point to having quotes in the lede or adding "has been described as". The text largely pseudoscience was correct before. The same kind of thing happened to the lede at TCM. He is moving text around that does not follow the same order as the body. QuackGuru (talk) 01:24, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

76.107.171.90, QuackGuru and Dominus Vobisdu are some of a group of hawkish editors desperate to include the assertion "TCM is pseudoscience" to the lede of the Chinese medicine article, trying to use an inadequate source, and rigidly resisting any compromise (the current compromise is "TCM has been described as largely pseudoscience", which I happily supported). Please find my more detailed view on this dispute here at the DR/N. The DR/N thread was started by me.

Yes, I have been blocked 24 hrs for edit warring over this (first time ever for me), and I'm sorry - I got caught up in the heat. I'd like to point out though, that the admin who blocked me simultaneously warned QuackGuru for edit warring as well [46]. The race baiting charge, however, is so ridiculous I'm not even going to comment on this.

Parallely to the DR/N thread, tentative consensus regarding this dispute has been found at Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#Labels: pseudoscience, protoscience, please take a look. This AN/I here is a pretty obvious attempt eliminate a perceived opponent (and/or to sabotage the consensus found at the talk page and/or the DR process) in a content dispute. I think that WP:BOOMERANG should apply, and would ask for a topic ban of 76.107.171.90. It also like to ask whether it is possible to check whether 76.107.171.90 is a sock puppet of any of the editors involved in Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Traditional Chinese medicine. --Mallexikon (talk) 03:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon, saying “The race baiting charge, however, is so ridiculous I'm not even going to comment on this” is a classic Argumentum ad lapidem. You know that your racial comments are totally indefensible, so you are trying to shift the focus away from your obvious misbehavior and onto content issues. Let me be clear; if you had not taunted Dominus Vobisdu then we would not be here right now. Your decision to taunt Dominus Vobisdu after he took offense at your racial comments is obvious bullying.

If any administrator is tempted to think that this is a content issue then they can consider whether Mallexikon’s racial comments alone are sufficiently inappropriate to warrant sanction. The primary reason that I brought up Mallexikon’s problematic editing of Traditional Chinese Medicine is to show that Mallexikon’s racial bias affects his editing of articles and not just his talk page behavior.

Mallexikon, abusively and falsely accusing another editor of being a sock in an attempt to discredit them is a personal attack. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 06:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The only personal attack I see is this weak attempt to discredit Mallexikon while diverting attention from the important content issue which Mallexikon is seeking compromise wording for. The racial accusation is disingenuous bullshit and you know it. Stick to the content. Herbxue (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Herbxue, simply shouting “This is about content!”, “This is about content!” over and over again is not going to convince anyone. We are talking about the way that Mallexikon evoked race to try to get his way on Traditional Chinese Medicine, and the way that he taunted Dominus Vobisdu when Dominus Vobisdu objected to his comments. And we are also discussing whether Mallexikon’s bias prevents him from editing constructively within Traditional Chinese Medicine. Increasingly desperate attempts to divert attention away from a serious behavioral issue are not appropriate. 76.107.171.90 (talk) 08:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

You know what's not appropriate? You are doing this because you disagree with his edits, not because you are actually offended by him making an off-hand comment about white nerds. I'm a white nerd and I am not offended. I highly doubt DV actually felt threatened or insulted. This IS about content (you even referenced his "bias" above, which as far as I can tell he is skeptical of the value of TCM but is unwilling to violate WP policy and common sense to prove it, unlike the other editors here).Herbxue (talk) 13:29, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Mallexikon is continuing to violate WP:ASSERT by adding weasel words not found in the source. QuackGuru (talk) 10:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

For what its worth, 76.107.171.90 has been blocked for two weeks for personal attacks and harassment of a different editor he has had conflict with in the pseudoscience area. It involved a talk page discussion where he was brainstorming about ways to get this user blocked. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 11:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• I disagree with Mallexicon on TCM, but more generally, we do have a problem with systemic bias; our content follows the interests of anglophone white male technophiles. I am uncomfortable with the idea that editors could be sanctioned for highlighting one of en.wikipedia's most widespread problems. bobrayner (talk) 10:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

If that was the problem, I'd agree. Actually the problem is tendentious and disruptive editing. Guy (Help!) 20:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this a problem or is it okay to delete the text that is part of a summary of the body? If the he thinks the text is unsourced he could of reworded it. He previously claimed the text was also unsourced at the TCM article. QuackGuru (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No it is not OK, it is tendentious and moreover it is edit warring as numerous editors have restored that well sourced text. That is exactly what I mean. Mallexikon appears to be a True Believer; the input of believers helps us to clarify content and keep it honest but they cannot be allowed to wave away the fact that most alternatives-to-medicine are based on refuted notions and sustained by pseudoscience, used to give the impression of legitimacy. Guy (Help!) 12:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

I think a 1RR restriction is in order for Mallexikon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and if not already alerted, a {{ds/alert}}. Hipocrite did this on 7 May. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I would support some kind of revert restriction. bobrayner (talk) 14:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Support Additionally there was a fair bit of support for some form of limitations back in Feb [47] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 16:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Interesting that there's already some talk on a penalty... But could you maybe tell me for what exactly? I originally was accused of "race baiting" here (which is groundless) and for including the statement that TCM is considered a protoscience (which is not even disputed). Now suddenly Guy is accusing me of edit warring and tendentious and disruptive editing... Without any evidence at all! This edit that QuackGuru just complained about was a revert of his desperate attempt to include the term "pseudoscience" into the acupuncture article without an adequate source. The source he uses [48], is not about acupuncture - it's about TCM herbal treatment. Our own rules as in WP:FRINGE state that "ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or labeled with pejoratives such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources." And just because I reverted this attempt to distort a source (BTW, this is not the first time QG's done something like this), I'm a "True Believer"?? (Which actually is an insult, and not a small one. I think you've been in the trenches too long. If you see a True Believer in me, you're obviously too eager to see this in other editors. --Mallexikon (talk) 01:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Undue retaliation, provocation and/or vandalism on Mitsubishi Magna article by User:OSX

Mitsubishi Magna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Raising this matter here, as suggested by User:Paine Ellsworth via my (talk) page yesterday.

COMPLAINT

In essence, and as is evident from the relevant View History content, over the last few days User:OSX has been:

1. accusing, insulting and patronising me;
2. compromising the photographical content of the article;
3. asserting undue entitlement by reference to presumed automotive photograph standards;
4. engaging in constant and vexatious page revisions without reason;
5. spamming my Talk page and complaining about my justified deletion of his vagaries.

all following from me supporting the change to the main photograph in the lead infobox of this article.

Examples of the inappropriate and presumptuous comments plus conduct in retaliation via View history [49] page include:

• (cur | prev) 06:49, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,466 bytes) (-14)‎ . . (Wow, you really hate TEs. Anyway, I can keep upholding Wikipedia's image standards ad infinitum, can you?) = provoking retaliation
• (cur | prev) 04:12, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,714 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Using other IPs / fake accounts doesn't make you a different person) = baseless accusation
• (cur | prev) 01:06, 5 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,468 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Revert: low-quality image. Image standards stipulate to use the best quality image. The TE is very representative of the Magna, being of one the most common models on the road, not a rare 1st gen model (most of which have been crushed).) = irrelevant & disingenuous claim since all motor vehicles will, in time, become rare and/or crushed
• (cur | prev) 13:40, 4 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,258 bytes) (+32)‎ . . (Revert: the VRX is an obscure special, it is not particularly representative of the Magna. Also, it is of low resolution.) = factually incorrect claim since the VRX was not an obscure special but one of the longest serving model variants in the [[Mitsubishi Magna history, as duly noted in the article.

User:OSX has escalated his vandalism and provocation by then compromising the content of the article through the deletion of Wikimedia Commons photographs that featured in the article. In the case of the 1st generation Magna, this resulted in that article being left with no representative photographs of sedans and empty thumbnails. For example refer to:

1) Deleted thumbnails example 2) Content prior to mass deletion in retaliation

User:OSX has also compromised the content of the page by insisting that the main photograph in the lead infobox of the article, not only be less representative (reasons below), but also by featuring a digitally altered photograph as he confirms via the View history' [50] page:

• (cur | prev) 05:04, 6 May 2014‎ OSX (talk | contribs)‎ . . (61,714 bytes) (+59)‎ . . (Well I am treating you as the same people. You are either the same people, or know each other and have spoken about this issue. The offending dent on the TE has been edited out.) (undo | thank)

REASONS FOR CHANGED LEAD INFOBOX PHOTO

Hatting some content-related discussion about a photo, not relevant for ANI. Drmies (talk) 15:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am a car enthusiast and owner of more than 1 series of the Mitsubishi Magna and I do not favour one series over the other. In the absence of any other information, User:OSX is an enthusiast automotive photographer as is evident from his Wikimedia gallery. He has relied heavily on WP:CARPIX when his own photograph of the white TE Magna is deficient because: It had a dent that has been digitally removed, distorting the real look of the vehicle at the front right corner It carries no model code or other descriptor, and it could easily be 1 of 2 discontinued nomenclatures (unlike ongoing VRX) It displays private registration plates It is less representative than the 1st generation TM-TP series, in the context of this historical article. in Australia, automotive media and publications ALWAYS rely on photographs of the first generation Magna (or, indeed, the last) for articles on historical vehicles. The online example quoted in the History refers to this self-explanatory article - http://www.drive.com.au/motor-feature/a-salute-to-australias-10-most-important-cars-20120119-1q7ik.html At the Australian Motor Museum in South Australia (where this vehicle was produced), the exhibited models are indeed the first generation Magna - see https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543542653/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543532829 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543551821 The only other Magna at the Museum is a 1996 Magna/Verada - see https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9546350234/ and https://www.flickr.com/photos/aussiefordadverts/9543569093 The significance of the first generation Magna is not that it was just the first, but also that it created the medium-large car sector in Australia (hence why the above DRIVE publication celebrates it as a Top 10 most important Australian car). The significance of the 1996 model above is that it is the first mass exported Australian-made vehicle to the USA. The TE Magna series, whose pic OSX is obsessively using, has no comparable significance and is not as representative of the Mitsubishi Magna dinasty. I request that User:OSX be brought back into line and allow the change to the main photograph in the lead infobox, not for capricious reasons as his are, but to enhance the value of this historical article. The Mitsubishi Magna is no longer in production in Australia and the TE series bears no particular significance in the course of its manufacture. Normally, I would also be expecting apologies for the unfounded and provoking comments made, except for the realization that User:OSX bear no value, as demonstrated by his bullying and erroneous nature. User:OSX's asinine "edit war" has been only over a picture and not any other substance of the article. Ironically, the first 1st generation Mitsubishi Magna used in the lead infobox was a User:OSX's own work, which he also deleted and appears to have reinstated in Wikimedia Commons since - see [[51]]. Thankyou

MundusEditus (talk)

• Oh dear. I locked the article to stop this rather inane edit war. Forgive me for minor tweaks to this complaint (a full-color signature was added) and for hatting content that does not really pertain right now. Drmies (talk) 15:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• I count something like 27RR here. To MundusEditus, it's a remarkably poor idea to make personal attacks in a report on ANI as you have done. OSX, you've been around long enough to know better than to engage in this kind of edit war. "I can keep upholding Wikipedia's image standards ad infinitum, can you?" is not the appropriate way to deal with this. Acroterion (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• [ec] Well. It's pretty clear that this MundusEditus has been edit warring using a variety of accounts and IP addresses--they're obviously playing around with 121.214.211.219 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and 1.123.19.58 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and P8-poseidon (talk · contribs), pretending to be an outsider but reverting in MundusEditus's favor. The latter, BTW, is a single-purpose account. Besides, the complaint and various edit summaries are full of unacceptable violations of protocol, with the accusations of vandalism and trolling--see edit summaries in [52], [53], [54], [55], [56]. As far as I'm concerned the account could be blocked indefinitely, though of course we could make allowances for their being a relative newcomer in terms of edits, though I am not sure there is an excuse for statements like "He is literally acting as a tyrant and bully"--Mandarax will concur that there is no place in the world, going forward, for that kind of abuse of the word "literally". As far as OSX is concerned, it's disappointing to see such an experienced editor revert 29 times, if I counted correctly. I know blocks aren't supposed to be punitive, but Holy Mother of God this is ridiculous, and considering we're talking a pretty ugly car here maybe this edit war deserves a place in the gallery of stupid edit wars--forgot the acronym.

  Now, I probably protected the wrong version. Here's what I will do. I will unprotect, and I encourage the next editor to have a look at the two versions. I have my own preference, but hey, it's a hot item on ANI these days--you can see them compared at User talk:MundusEditus. I have warned both editors (odd that no one saw this go by on Recent Changes), and if either of these two or their IP/sock representatives revert, they should/will be blocked. Both editors deserve something: not a trout, cause there's nothing funny about it. Mundus deserves a block for the socking (and I'm going to throw around some sock blocks, even without an SPI), but whether that should be an indefinite block I will leave up to you. So please have a look, fellow admins. Drmies (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Blocks may be warranted here, though for now at least the full protection takes away any preventive effect those blocks would have. Unless I'm missing something (i.e., if Mundus is a banned editor's sock), OSX probably has some explaining to do. Experienced editors should not be breaking 3RR. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
• Well, OSX chose not to respond after their 27R violation, and did only this. I find this behavior unbecoming and disruptive, and invite admins' advice. Drmies (talk) 22:26, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for all the work you've put into this Drmies. Due to the socking, incivility and personal attacks I'd support a minimum three day block of User:MundusEditus which would have been what I'd done if this were at SPI, but I'll wait for another opinion. OSX has more than 20000 edits and should definitely know better, however given they haven't been blocked for edit warring in the past this isn't a trend so I think a stern warning should suffice. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, Callanecc, but I disagree vehemently that OSX should just get a "stern warning". This wasn't an "oops, I accidentally hit 4RR", this was blatant disregard for the fundamental norms of this community. You don't just end up at 27RR without realizing how far things have gotten, you decide that you have disdain for this community and that you don't care about the processes that we have for resolving these issues. OSX could have gone to SPI when the socks started showing up, but instead decided to flaunt the most basic behavioral standards that we have for editors. At 20k+ edits, OSX knows better than to act like this, and any admin worth their salt knows better than to brush this kind of behavior off as some sort of youthful indiscretion. VanIsaac_WS^cont 06:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Block both for a week, not just because of the ridiculous behaviour but because the dispute itself is as WP:LAME as they come. I can understand people getting wound up over articles on Israel-Palestine or gun control, but this? Come on! Guy (Help!) 11:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Block both for a week, per Guy. This indeed a thoroughly lame edit war, and both editors have behaved v badly. OSX has made over 20,000 edits and should know a lot better than to edit war like this. MundusEditus is a single-purpose account who rapidly started socking when their own version was challenged, and something about all of this suggests that this may not be a new editor. An SPI would be helpful to determine whether this is part of a wider pattern of socking. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I had a look and have  Confirmed that P8-poseidon (talk · contribs) is indeed the same as MundusEditus, but other than editing while logged out, there doesn't appear to be any pattern of socking. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Moreover, it doesn't look like Mundus was socking on that article until well after both he and OSX had passed 3RR. So the fact that Mundus was acting in bad faith shouldn't serve as a defense for OSX. Honestly, even if Mundus had been a banned editor socking already, I think the onus would be on OSX to demonstrate that he knew or at least strongly suspected it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 16:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• I was tempted to just implement the block, but I felt that this would be a bit lopsided. I would agree that one week for OSX is probably best, to prevent this continuing for at least a week, but Magnus may need two, for both warring AND socking. Often, the socking alone will earn two weeks, and I don't want to send the message that they are both equally to blame. They are both to blame, but there is a difference in the disruption that each has caused. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I would be fine with the longer block for Magnus. A counter-argument to that would be that edit-warring is a more forgiveable mistake by a by a newbie, so the two kinda even out, but I'm not sure that I would pursue that. I think that on balance the extra block for socking is appropriate. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Thank you all, and thanks User:DoRD for your very unredundant check. I'm tempted to quote Milton, to the effect that Mundus fell by themselves, but OSX fell by Mundus seduced, and that therefore the one will find grace, the other none (pardon the chiasmus). I note also that both seem unaffected by what's happening here: they have not responded but are merrily editing away, Mundus on the very same article. Therefore, one week for OSX and two for Mundus it is. Again, thank you all. And now someone needs to look at those stupid pictures and decide which one was right...Dennis, you know cars and car articles--do you have an opinion? Or do you not stoop to Mitsubishis? Drmies (talk) 16:49, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The wife had an Eclipse SE, and a glove box full of tickets. Now she gets to drive my old work truck as punishment. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:28, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• The question we should ask here is: What do we need to do to protect the encyclopaedia? If both users have had it made clear that certain aspects of their behaviour is unacceptable and we believe they will not persist in them, there is no need for further action. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:59, 8 May 2014 (UTC).
  
  • If someone had come here and expressed regret and made it clear that it won't happen again, I would completely agree with you, we all make mistakes. I don't see that here. Part of the reason of the block is to stop problems today, but part of the preventative nature of it is that it is supposed to make them think twice next time they are tempted, knowing that a block can and has previously happened. With socking in particular, I think you have to send a strong message, as socking is one of the easiest forms of abuse that you can get away with. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:01, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Sean.hoyland uses terms designed to falsely demonize Israel (i.e. "occupation", "settlement", etc)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

...or at least that's what I do according to Special:Contributions/ValuableAppendage in the edit summary of this revert. Could an admin familiar with the pointless nationalist disruption that goes on everyday in the WP:ARBPIA topic area help take the matches away from this fire-starter before they start more fires and attack more editors in the topic area please ? The editor is WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia based on Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:36, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what you do consistently on many articles. For example, in the article on "Katrin", you use the headers "Turkish Rule", "Syrian Rule", etc, but for Israel you prefer "Israeli Occupation". This is clearly an attempt to make Israel sound like a rogue state that is occupying another country's land illegally, which it is not. Israel conquered the Golan Heights in full accordance with international during a war aimed at Israel's destruction that Syria started in full discard of international norms. And I am not a "nationalist", I am a pragmatist. You sir, are a hater. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ValuableAppendage (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Notified, and reverted. Drmies (talk) 16:58, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Zero interaction with the editor immediate to ANI? I don't think this is an issue yet. Maybe if you informed him why it is written that way he might understand your perspective. Or he might have an argument new and interesting that changes policy. In short you are missing the D (so to speak)of BRD, and I wouldn't suggest any actions until some sort of discussion actually occurs. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• Well, the editor is not new here, and they made such edits before. Note also that regardless of perspective their edit summary was way over the top, and that the comments here aren't exactly neutral either. Drmies (talk) 17:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've overridden Dennis' original close with an update. Bishonen | talk 15:49, 9 May 2014 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rollback request for edits by 179.177.15.85

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I am requesting a roleback of all edits by 179.177.15.85 (talk). 179.177.15.85 has made mass changes to the importance scale of articles within WP:A&M without engagin in any discussion about such change first. Almost all of these changes do not even comply with the WikiProject's assessment scale. The project has had problems with Brazilian IPs vandalizing project assessments in the past and this appears to be more of the same. 24.149.117.220 (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and done the mass-rollback as there was nothing that I saw being productive here, especially moving importance's from low to top, and moving things around on the upper echelons of importance. I would suggest engaging with them in the future before coming here, but I don't see anything here being productive so I decided to revert it. If anyone wants to revert me, go ahead, as I will not contest that action. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Editor continues to IP hop

Editor has switch to 201.23.162.17 (talk) making the same types of edits. 24.149.117.220 (talk) 09:53, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Now using 179.180.53.100 (talk). This editor is being very persistent and hasn't responded to previous attempts to engage them on the issue 24.149.117.220 (talk) 21:07, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Other IPs this editor has used in the past

• 201.23.163.5 (talk)
• 187.113.13.139 (talk)
• 179.182.67.27 (talk)
• 189.59.98.49 (talk)
• 201.41.95.9 (talk)

All the IPs are geolocated to Brazil. I'm not sure if the individual is using open proxies in order to mask their activities, but there is a consented effort. 24.149.117.220 (talk) 21:16, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Several new accounts (a class?) uploading copyrighted images, creating unusual sandbox pages

While patrolling new uploads, I came across several accounts that are uploading a large number of copyrighted images, claiming that are cc-by-sa 3.0 when in fact they are not. They are then using these images on sandboxes creating 'articles' that are not exactly encyclopedic content. The accounts, sandboxes, and example images:

• Basetsana Magapa (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image
• Thandymoroks (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image
• Mojadi (talk · contribs) - sandbox - example image

They are creating copyright violations faster than I can tag them. I've handed up notices, warnings, etc. and it is not slowing down. Some help please? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:16, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

You need to notify them that you put them on ANI; I have. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:18, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I know, and thanks. I have several tabs open and hadn't saved those yet. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:20, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Starting an SPI: look at their sandboxes for evidence. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's more likely that this is a class. Lots of overlap in editing times, suggesting these are different editors. Given the nature of the edits and structure of the sandboxes being similar, I suspect these were created under instruction. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking at this, I think you're correct; I'll ask for checkuser to flush out any others. Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 16:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

My guess is that they are journalism students at Limkokwing University of Creative Technology in Botswana. They appear to be using Wikipedia simply to host their journalism assignments, possibly as directed by their instructor. I very much doubt they are planning to make these into Wikipedia articles. Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Should we let them know Wikipedia is not a place for that? And why do you think there in particular? Origamite^{\(·_·\)(/·_·)/} 17:13, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Can we get in touch with their instructor? bobrayner (talk) 17:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but googling the names given as "by-lines" in two of the sandboxes suggests a link with that university. Someone ought to ask them outright if their editing is part of an assignment and ask how to contact their instructor. (I can't as I'm about to go off line). However, the students (if that's what they are) have been remarkably unresponsive so far and simply keep uploading copyvio files. User:Basetsana Magapa/sandbox has already been deleted once and promptly recreated. Voceditenore (talk) 17:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• Similarly, File:Carter morupisi.jpeg was tagged for deletion under db-f9, was deleted, and shortly thereafter uploaded again (and it's been retagged again) [57]. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• I've left notices on their talk pages to communicate with us as soon as possible either here in this thread or on their talk pages. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
• Of note, all three accounts have stopped editing for nearly two hours now. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:48, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

• The question is; are we going to let Satan take over or it’s the last kicks of a dying horse? I think we should all ponder that question more often, especially in this here cesspool of sin and sodomy we call ANI. Drmies (talk) 17:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
  • With respect, that's a little too cryptic for my simple mind to untangle. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Hint: Last line of linked sandbox page.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that "article" about Satan taking over and seducing Christians was disturbing and warrants deletion all on its own. The idea that these might be journalism students is even more worrying but that's outside of Wikipedia's control. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Origamite started an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mojadi. --Hammersoft (talk) 17:50, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Basetsana Magapa is at it again, recreating User:Basetsana Magapa/sandbox after it's been deleted twice, and uploading copyrighted content again. No communication from any of the three accounts. The other two accounts are, for the time being, dormant. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

At this point, the contributions of all three editors have been completely wiped out, with the lone exception of File:Basetsana.jpeg which appears to be a legitimate, self image of the uploader. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:04, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The SPI isn't going anywhere; there's no point using checkuser against people who we think are a group of students.

I would still like to contact their instructor - hopefully we could prevent similar problems happening in future. Any suggestions? bobrayner (talk) 11:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Constant editing of Laurie Mylroie page by one, possibly two, editors that are intent on deleting criticism and adding positive spin to bio page

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Jason17760 (talk) and possible sock-puppet Blubird26 (talk) - two editors, possible the same person, who have only edited one page - Laurie Mylroie (see Jason17760 and Blubird26). Almost all of the edits, and ALL of the more recent ones, have been attempts to delete any information critical of Laurie Mylroie, and/or insert passages that attempt to paint Laurie Mylroie in a more favorable light. Article was reasonably balanced before all this started, but these two accounts appear to have an agenda. I attempted to contact Jason17760 (talk) multiple times but did not receive a response until yesterday, which was simply an attack accusing me of trying to "discredit" Laurie Mylroie. I happened upon the page by chance and have no political leaning either way over this page, but I did notice the attempted "white-washing" and tried to correct it. The two users are persistent, however, and continue their campaign to delete any negative info, including the references that back up that info. I need help at this point. Thank you. Rockypedia (talk) 02:27, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Rocky, I really think you need to try and write more catchy titles. How's this:

  ALT 1: "Non-neutral edits on Laurie Mylroie, a BLP, by likely socks".

  Just a thought. Drmies (talk) 02:35, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Ha. yes. you are correct. My apologies, this is the first time I've not been able to work such a situation out with the other editor, so it's my first time posting on this notice board. Rockypedia (talk) 10:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think the first thing to do is to start an WP:SPI-unless someone like User:DoRD happens to walk by here. It may well be helpful to get CU evidence. There are behavioral indications that these two are the same--their edit summaries have important similarities, which I'm not going to spell out right now, and there's something else. I'm about to look at the content of those edits. Drmies (talk) 02:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • OK. This is Jason's first set of edits. There is no way anyone could consider those edits neutral. They clearly violate our BLP policies and the charges of whitewashing are validated. Blubird's edits are much smaller but work the same way. This one is a good example. (BTW, one could quibble over that content, but Blubird and Jason don't quibble--they simply chop and add.) Now, socks? I don't know. There is a strong suspicion. But neither of these should be editing this article: their violations of the BLP are manifold and their interest in the subject completely clouds their vision. Drmies (talk) 02:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive edits by anonymous user:76.115.218.234

Hi,

On the map about human skin color, there's given a map from the 1940's about native skin colors. It's very outdated. In order to replace the map with a more up to date one (one made by G.Gerland, on wikimedia since quite a time; https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PSM_V50_D780_Global_map_of_skin_color_distribution.jpg) I made a new section on the talk page opening the discussion, and I replaced the map on the page with the one by Gerland.

Now there is this anonymous user (76.115.218.234) who constantly keeps reverting the edits, doesn't leave a brief about why he does so, and doesn't even put down a word at the talk page while I continuously asked him/directed him to do so. (Having shown good faith obviously more than just once with my actions) I would say be probably has more of an agenda, than any type of good will. If he didn't have one, he could have easily dropped a comment on the talk page, sent a message to me, or made even an description about why he reverted it.

What and how can we deal with such tiresome people the easiest way? LouisAragon (talk) 05:02, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Am I misunderstanding something? You seem to be suggesting that a map dating from 1896 [58] is "more up to date" than one dating from 1940. [59] AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I've just checked - the map original can be found on page 758 of Popular Science Monthly Volume 50 (1896-1897). [60] AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

First, unless one is among the small, small number of editors who use their real name as a username, we are all essentially anonymous, not just IP editors. Second, you failed to notify the editor you are accusing of misconduct of this discussion so I posted a notice at User talk:76.115.218.234. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Off-wiki Survey Question

After nearly removing all of the random survey solicitations by 5.117.199.58 (talk · contribs) per WP:SPAM and/or WP:NOT, I found no concrete justification to link to in order to do it. They expect users to complete their strange survey request concerning how many books they have read by responding to an off-wiki email. It's clearly not an encyclopedic use of user talk pages. Or is it? Little help? Doc talk 08:28, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for a day or two per WP:NOTHERE. I've reverted pretty much all of their edits (mass rollback isn't working, what's up with that?) due to the inclusion of a personal email - don't personally see a need to revdel but if someone else wants to I've no objection. Yunshui ^雲_水 08:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

@Doc9871: FYI, the page you may have been looking for is m:Research:Subject recruitment. Legitimate researchers must have their survey approved by the Wikimedia Research Committee prior to contacting subjects. Rgrds. --64.85.215.121 (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

This IP originates in Iran so perhaps an explanation can be provided to them on how such research is done. There is a notice about creating a registered account but this might not be an option for them. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

It was supposedly just some High School kid who had a homework assignment due on Monday, so chances are nothing will come of it. Does Iran even have High Schools? Might just be some phishing ploy anyway. Rgrds. --64.85.215.121 (talk) 16:03, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure Iran has secondary education for at least some of their citizens but I'm surprised that one of their homework assignments would involve a survey on the English Wikipedia. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:23, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

It would be worth checking if the IP is an open proxy, because to me it seems like an attempt to fish for email addresses and IPs (reading the raw code of the email), perhaps in an attempt to find out who certain users here are IRL (some of the recipients, the ones that the IP posted to last, got the message in Persian, so it might be an attempt to find the real-life identities of those users...). Thomas.W ^talk 17:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

User having a "wall of shame" on his user page, naming other editors.

ScotXW (talk · contribs) is keeping a list of names labeled "Wikipedia Deletion Heroes" on his user page, listing (in violation of WP:UP#POLEMIC) admins/editors (FreeRangeFrog, The Bushranger, Qwertyus, LordFixit and me) who have deleted articles etc he created, or nominated such articles etc for deletion. I noticed it when he added my name to the list after I had nominated three categories he created for deletion. According to his talk page he was told a month ago by another user that the list, and some other content on his userpage, was inappropriate, and I posted a polite message on his talk page about the list two days ago. Since I got no response I posted a formal warning about the user page today, to which ScotXW responded "I will never take people like you seriously". So maybe someone here could take a look at both the user page and his attitude towards other editors? Thomas.W ^talk 09:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

It's been a longstanding practice to remove lists like these, with POLEMIC being the reason. Doc talk 09:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

No reason not to do so here - I'm not applying any sanctions against ScottXW, but I have removed the list of deletion heros from his userpage. Yunshui ^雲_水 09:29, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Good call, although I wonder if there might be a language barrier issue here. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 11:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC).

He seems to have quite an excellent grasp of the English language when looking at his responses on his talk page. Doc talk 12:00, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the call, and added some extra explanation on his talk page. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Good removal; these lists just prolong post-AfD bad blood, which is a common but unfortunate occurrence. Oddly, I've found myself develop a great deal of respect for those with whom I disagree at XfDs, and something like this only serves to keep people from burying the hatchet. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 17:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Block evasion by User:Thomas Limberg (Schmogrow)

Thomas Limberg (Schmogrow) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was recently blocked for WP:NPA and WP:NOTHERE violations (see [61], [62], [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74]). He quickly evaded his block ([75], [76]). His block evasion is not particularly severe, but it is still block evasion.

The IP used for block evasion was:

• 93.197.30.75 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Other IPs he has used in the past are:

• 93.197.47.238 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 93.197.19.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 93.197.8.254 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 79.252.242.192 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 93.197.6.222 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Ozob (talk) 14:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Some of these IP accounts were used for editing prior to him registering his account so I think only edits from 93.197.30.75 should be considered. Also, it's clear he is a very new user (his registered account is two days old). Being a newbie doesn't condone block evasion but he does seem to be unaware of basic Wikipedia policies and guidelines (especially WP:OR). I think he could benefit from a mentor if he would be open to being mentored. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

As the one who issued the original block, I have blocked the first IP, as that was used to continue the same pattern of behavior that led to the initial block (including at this thread, which I have reverted). The others should remain unblocked at this time, as they were used prior to the block; however, I would advise monitoring those as appropriate. Echoing what Liz says above, I would not be averse to having the block rescinded if this user can articulate that he is willing to contribute in a manner that is less combative and more productive. --Kinu ^t/_c 16:55, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The user has received a lot of good advice but does not appear to be taking it. I wouldn't be very optimistic for the future. To get the flavor, see User talk:Thomas Limberg (Schmogrow) and Talk:Naive set theory#Proposed move. His interest in contributing at Wikipedia seems to be to impart his personal revelations about set theory, which are essentially WP:OR. He has never cited a reliable source in any of his contributions. On this aspect see WT:WPM#Probable trolling over at Naive set theory. EdJohnston (talk) 17:25, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

After reading through two LONG discussions involving Thomas, like Ed, I'm skeptical that he would accept mentoring but it would be nice if that opportunity were offered to him. He is clearly intelligent but he takes editors challenging his ideas very personally and he seems set on introducing original research to the Naive set theory article. I think an unblock would be possible if he can accept that the "Limberg definition" will never be included in the article and understand the reasons why. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Basically, Thomas is just a crackpot with a fringe theory and uses Talk pages to endlessly argue that a teensy weensy exception ought to be made in the rules just for him. He has made no other contributions. From a mathematical point of view I see no sign of intelligence. There's nothing to mentor. Choor monster (talk) 18:31, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I do not think the user should be unblocked, they were not merely contentious on the talk page, but aggressively disruptive - not only were the comments nasty (or mockingly weird - song suggestions, something about Jesus, etc), but they were all over the place, full of random bolding, and contained no relevant content/references/rationale pertaining to anything on the page. They do not appear to have any interest in actually contributing, nor do they appear capable of collaboration - I do not believe the user's problem arises out of a lack of experience editing nor with a lack of understanding the culture here (though both of those may be true).Phoenixia1177 (talk) 00:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I have revoked Thomas's talk page access for reasons that can be seen there. I don't think there's anything else to do here (unless anyone here is also an admin at dewiki and wants to deal with his gems there, such as this). --Kinu ^t/_c 12:08, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Born2cycle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I am bringing this here because I am not sure what can and should be done about what I perceive as an ongoing problem. User:Born2cycle has been warned in the past:Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive245#Continued_tendentious_editing_by_Born2cycle (2013), Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article_titles_and_capitalisation#Remedies (2012). As a result of the 2013 situation, the editor created this page: User:Born2cycle/pledge However, difficulties continue. Apart from a continued pattern of escalation in other discussions, such as at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton, here are two of the most egregious recent posts:

[77] [78]

This sort of thing makes productive discussion very difficult, as do comments like this:

[79]

Taken in combination with this editor review, this and other evidence suggests that there's been no change in behavior, or willingness to accept that there is even a problem. It all relates to this editor’s apparent inability to accept disagreement from other editors. Omnedon (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• Just FYI - Born2cycle sanction automatically expired after one year - sanction was 1 year, 2 months, 18 days ago. -- Moxy (talk) 18:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Sanction expires, problem resumes, sanction gets reimposed. WP:AE is probably the place. Guy (Help!) 18:38, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• I apologize. I was in a bad mood that day and have a tendency towards being dramatic/emotional; still, that sort of offensive language is very uncharacteristic of me. I don't think I've ever used the f-word on WP before (not that I'm the first). I'm sorry. Thankfully it was refactored for civility.

  It seems to me that User:Omnedon is often looking for a way to get under my skin, case in point. There is no ongoing issue here (that discussion has turned out to be at least informative), but he is trying to create one. I think he's just especially annoyed with me right now because recently he again asserted his peculiar interpretation of concise in which longer titles (like Bothell, Washington) are more "concise" than shorter titles (like Bothell), as if that is an established or consensus-supported position, and I've challenged him about this, asking him to identify anyone else who agrees with him about this. There may have been one or two other editors in the past, but most people seem to hold the opinion that though there may be other good policy-based reasons to prefer the longer of two reasonable titles, the concision criterion is not among them. This might seem trivial, but it applies in situations where neither of two titles are indicated as the "better" title by any criteria other than concision, nor by any other consensus-supported arguments. In such cases the interpretation of concision as indicating the longer or shorter ones is what can determine which title should be used. --В²C ☎ 18:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC) minor edits --В²C ☎ 18:54, 9 May 2014 (UTC) add final sentences for context clarification --В²C ☎ 18:57, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• As the admin who imposed the sanctions and also one of three admins on the receiving end of criticism from Born2cycle recently, I just want to say that the sanctions were a creative solution to a complex problem. I don't know if they ever worked or were effective, I was never pinged about them. But if sanctions were to resume, this time they should be done with community consensus - not just reimposing a creative solution from last time. If that solution worked, feel free to reuse it. But I am asking that it not just be extended for the sake of simplicity. I received a mixture of praise and criticism for those, they were not universally positively received by the community and it was sort of a supervote on my part at the time. Not advocating for the sanctions or against them, only saying that any of my previous verbiage - if reused - should only be enacted after stronger consensus for them. That's all I have to say.--v/r - TP 19:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
• Drawing B2C's attention to questionable behavior is something that a number of editors have done recently, including both at his review and his talk page, e.g. a recent trout; I see in some cases that such feedback simply got reverted [80][81][82]. ╠╣uw [talk] 19:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing of urgent concern here. Some colorful language, which B2C has apologized for above, but nothing worthy of a drama-filled ANI thread. I suggest engagement with the user on their talk page (perhaps using different language than the approaches which were reverted).--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Note that editors have already attempted to politely raise concerns about B2C's conduct on his talk page; B2C deleted the posts without comment:[83][84] ╠╣uw [talk] 11:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

This is not primarily about the language, though that is an element -- and interestingly the apology only arrived after this was brought up here, not when it was questioned at the time. But the bigger issue is statements like "I can't believe people who care about the integrity and reputation of this project are allowing this absurdity to continue." and "No, reasonable people cannot disagree about this." and "Frankly, it's so clear, there really shouldn't be any discussion about it." The basic issue is B2C's apparent inability to accept that the views of other editors, when they disagree with his, may have validity. The Hillary Rodham Clinton discussion was rife with it. Omnedon (talk) 20:29, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Omnedon, I'm not sure if you saw the recent drama at Sarah Jane Brown, where a number of admins forcibly shut down a completely reasonable move discussion prematurely because they could not believe that anyone would seriously vote for changing the name, so they forcibly stopped what they saw as an absurdity. So while B2C has made such statements, we have several admins who have acted recently on similar sentiments, and with zero consequences - indeed by shutting a discussion down early they were essentially saying "Other editors' points of view do not have validity, and are not valid to discuss here". I'd be more concerned if B2C had taken action aligned with his (sometimes strongly expressed) views, but for now he's just expressed them, not warred over them.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:52, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I really do try to be civil and respectful. But if my best friend who I love dearly says something that sounds nuts to me, I tell him so. I mean no disrespect to him when I do so. I say it with the understanding that I may be missing something. I say to expose a gap in understanding, so that it may be rectified, or so that we may at least reach a point where we can agree to disagree. But yeah, at worst, I'm merely expressing a dismissive-sounding opinion. I'm not really being dismissive. I don't walk away and stop listening to anyone willing to continue to talk. And I certainly don't act on it. The only place I've ever acted on it, and with full consensus support, is at Talk:Sega Mega Drive, where I contributed heavily to the FAQ that helped end never-ending pointless repetitive discussion. --В²C ☎ 21:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's face it. It's my personality, and how I express myself. I tend to use hyperbole and other exaggerations, when I express myself, that, when taken literally, are interpreted as absurdities. I assure you, my "apparent inability to accept that the views of other editors, when they disagree with his, may have validity", is just that: an apparent inability. That is, it seems true, but it really isn't. Plus, when I express my opinion, I assume I have a right to express it. I'm not demanding or asking anyone to "obey" what I'm saying - I have no such power, of course. I'm just expressing my opinion in especially strong language. I may be shooting myself in the foot, because my aim is to be persuasive and that seems to be backfiring, but is that a crime? And, in my defense, in that particular discussion about diacritics, I believe my strongly expressed opinion language elicited illuminating responses that may have not been offered had it not been for my forceful statements. I, for one, have a clearer understanding and appreciating of those views.

If you or anyone else ever thinks I'm not accepting their opinion, trust me, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying, or at least what I'm trying to convey. --В²C ☎ 20:44, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

B2C is not the "least civil" editor, and it is common in projectspace to decry the reasons for the "imminent demise of Wikipedia". Can someone please find something more important for this board? Collect (talk) 20:48, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A guidance request

Firstly the background, User_talk:Giano#File_source_problem_with_File:VillaMedicicafaggiolo.gif User_talk:Giano#An Apology

In summary, I failed to meet the standard required, and what's more I should know better, given past concerns (as the extensive archive of my user talk page and previous ANI threads show.)

The issue (as on previous occasions) seems to be one of WP:COMPETENCE which in the above instance, I did not apparently exercise.

I am therefore asking for opinions on how to (i) 'avoid breaking stuff', given that this has come up a number of times before. (ii) approach the issue of media uploaded during the earlier years of Wikipedia before the current standards for media were routinely established. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 21:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't look over old ANI's but my general suggestion if you're getting into recurring problems in a given area, is just stay away from that area for a while. So in this case it means let other people deal with image and media issues for the time being. There are plenty of other things you can do instead. Giano's response to you was also appropriate and worth taking to heart. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 23:19, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

One possibility of this is to avoid hitting the template button. Carry on reporting copyvios, but document each one in your own words and leave a message that shows you understand the context of each image. Templates, particularly when used on long standing editors, do come across like a bucketload of ignorance towards the subject. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 07:43, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

These aren't necessarily all copyvios (see the image concerned), and in many instances images are only unsourced on a technicality. There should be some way of marking stuff that is clearly old, but where given time, we no longer know what the exact source is. The issue here is between "1400's Painting of X by Y in Gallery Z (online at URL: foo.bar )" and "Mechanical reproduction of original artwork.", both are regarded as acceptable as sources, but the former is clearly more useful.Sfan00 IMG (talk) 20:14, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Advice solicited: User:131.239.63.3 and Lothar von Trotha

My next revert of this IP will be the third in 24 hours. I am of the opinion that I'm reverting vandalism, but the IP is of the opinion that I am the one that vandalises. I would appreciate the opinion of an uninvolved administrator. --Pgallert (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• You're both wrong and need to read WP:VANDAL. Just because you don't agree with an edit, that doesn't make it vandalism. That means that WP:3RR is absolutely a factor and you can be blocked if you go over. That said, what the IP is trying to add is flatly wrong. Typhoid fever is caused by food or water that is infected. He is saying it has to be "poisoned food", which would be original research, thus not allowed unless the sources specifically say that was caused by food. That isn't an issue for ANI, it is an issue for the talk page. I will leave a note on his talk page as well. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:58, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the advice, Dennis Brown. I was assuming that, if I request a reference for an extraordinary claim, and get an answer that it is self-evident, I may assume that the other editor is not here to build an encyclopedia. Then there is the edit summary on my talk page, which one could interpret as a PA. Will leave this article alone for a while, it's weekend anyway. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 23:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
    • It just means you are correct about the edit (an editor issue), but you still can't break 3RR (an administrative issue). I left a pretty strong note to him about it, clearly he has the wrong idea about deduction. The summary is rude, but nothing I would get excited about. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:17, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Personal attacks

I have an on-going problem with Scalhotrod personally attacking me.

• 20:01, 27 April 2014, [85] Serious accusation (ownership, without evidence)
• 20:11, 27 April 2014, [86] Serious accusation (ownership, without evidence)
• 14:12, 5 May 2014, [87] Serious accusation (ownership, without evidence)
• 15:04, 5 May 2014, [88] Criticism in an inappropriate context (article talk page)
• 20:58, 9 May 2014 [89] Serious accusation ("history of activity of stacking Users in her favor and bringing in other Users to support her causes" - without evidence)

That last one especially bothers me. He asked the editor he posted that reply to to check my edit history.

As I said just yesterday to the Gun control arbitrators [90], I'd prefer that Scalhotrod start something specifically about me if he has a beef with me and my edits in general. Otherwise, as I've asked him repeatedly, I'd like him to keep it on content and take personal remarks to MY talk page, or at the very least notify me when he talks about me on other talk pages. Lightbreather (talk) 23:37, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, this is not at drama board level at this point. The OP has a huge plurality of edits on the article in question. Of the last 200 edits, including bot edits, the OP accounts for 156 edits. And if we remove the bots, the OP is well over 85% of the total edits on that page. No one else comes within a mile. The best way to avoid any possible aspersions about ownership is not to totally dominate any topic. Verb. sap. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

FWIW Collect has behaved, in fewer edits, even worse in my opinion then Scalhotrod. For example, without any discussion he tried to involve an arbitrator by making the same accusations as Scalhotrod, but without first discussing the issue at Lightbreather's talk page nor informing LB of the conversation. Collect removed a few of my edits (claiming I interpolated my opinion into the source}, but when I asked for clarification his response do not discuss my edits, or he doesn't respond.

I have taken a different approach with Scalhotrod, which is discussing very very thoroughly one edit I wanted to make to the article. It has been going on for several days, and in several more we might reach some agreement on the edit. Given how long this as taken I do not blame LB for taking a more direct approach, otherwise not much might get done. Thenub314 (talk) 02:43, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The examples you give show me acting in an entirely proper manner, and I am unsure why you make unfounded accusations here. here. My post here was made to defuse the situation, and not to inflame it. The post to NYB was a "heads up" about an ArbCom case - as I find opening an RfC and then closing it with one's own position to be irregular. The concept of an RfC is that they are generally closed by uninvolved third parties. That this is heinous is beyond me.

The edit I made [91] with the edit summary "desire" is clear argumentation and violative of policy -- and if you cite an opinion - use quotation marks please - this is about the limit for this source was proper, yet was mischaracterized by the editor at hand as Reverted to revision 607787468 by Cwobeel (talk): There are quotation marks in there. And I intend to add more content about this aspect sourced to other books which was odd in my opinion. And having someone repeatedly ask to have someone repeat what has already been posted on the article talk page is not a gainful use of an article talk page at all.

The reply See what discussion, What are you talking about? This is the 2002 source you took out. Yes there is a separate section on a different source. Could you try again. Please comment about why you took what I wrote out? What did I add, that caused you to remove this because the source did not support it?

Is pure drama seeking-- the discussion was on the same page, and readily quite viewable.

@Guy it is precisely because I saw the same behaviour that led to the ArbCom case that I posted to NYB, and I trust you will note my temperate demeanor even when others seek drama. Cheers.Collect (talk) 10:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

A "heads up" would be something neutral, not signaling out a particular editor. Your comments were "We have a new owner...". We can agree to disagree but I think this is as much of an accusation of ownership as the posts above. And as much claim otherwise you never addressed on the talk page why you reverted my edit, which started Cwobeel trying to put something similar in using a different source. But you've never addressed why you reverted my edit and started the mess, and it is not discussed on the talk page (if it is, please link the diff). I am not asking you to repeat, simply justify your revert. Thenub314 (talk) 14:54, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Collect, I don't appreciate your calling this a "drama board." I only came here after numerous attempts to get Scal (and you, too, for that matter, as has been pointed out) to stop making personal comments and to just keep it on content. (As an aside, for anyone like me who doesn't know Latin, "Verb. sap." apparently means a word is enough to the wise. I don't know why Collect included it, but there you go.) Lightbreather (talk) 17:38, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I believe these articles are under discretionary sanctions? Are the parties aware? Guy (Help!) 09:35, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Both Scalhotrod and I were reminded on 6 May 2014. It was/is a little scary for me coming here. I simply want the personal stuff in inappropriate places to stop. (I've asked him to bring personal stuff to my talk page, or at least notify me when he brings it up elsewhere.) When he said that he wasn't "really interested in wasting time putting together the difs and evidence to report it [ownership],"[92] I then replied by asking him to keep his comments on content. Lightbreather (talk) 17:10, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think that some editors are behaving very BATTLEGROUNDy at the article under dispute. However, I don't think any of the editors' behavior is really actionable as far as administrator intervention goes. (I don't know how this changes in the light of ArbCom discretionary sanctions.) As far as I can tell, most of the drama seems to center around the use of various sources in that article. This is a content dispute, and so not something that ANI can deal with. Presumably what is needed is for someone otherwise uninvolved to check the sources under discussion. That would suggest that mediation is a viable approach, at least with an experienced editor. Sławomir Biały (talk) 12:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment - If the comments cited above amount to personal attacks versus the attempt at communication and the sharing of viewpoints, then I've been "attacked" by more Editors and Admins than I care to remember. Lightbreather is a fairly new User and seems to be going through a "Wikipedia indoctrination process" of sorts that many others have gone through where active Editors are learning how to interact with this community and understand its processes. That said, her edit history and contributions speak for themselves. In my opinion, LB has a personal bias that affects her editing of gun related articles that she has alluded to here and here. Furthermore, I was not the first, nor the only Editor to bring up the issue of ownership activity with LB. The first instance I know of it was here. My impression of this Editor is that WP policy or procedure is relevant only when it suits her needs or objectives. Such as the recent RfC here regarding the article name of the Assault weapons legislation article and then a switch to a Move Request. I remember going through this stage and evolving past it, I hope that LB does the same.

I have a quote on my Talk page that states one of my viewpoints towards editing, "Here on Wikipedia, it's OK to be an idiot or do something stupid as long as you are willing to take responsibility and own up to it when you are called on it. - Source Unknown". I have "mea culpa'd" more times than I can remember and then I've thanked the person for explaining what I did wrong. I have even thanked them for the time it took to go through the process of explaining it. It is unfair of me to expect a similar attitude from Lightbreather, but I am entitled to expect her to be Civil and adhere to policy which includes not gaming the WP system or running roughshod over any editors that do not agree with her exact stance, exact wording of content, or use of a particular source. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Above is virtually the same as you posted two days ago (8 May 2014) on the GPUS talk page yesterday:

So you're admitting to POV editing like you alluded to here and here? --Scalhotrod ... 17:32, 8 May 2014 (UTC)[93]

So I'll say here what I said there: What the heck are you talking about? All that I've "alluded to" is WP:STEWARDSHIP, and Don't shoot the messenger. Translating that to "LB has a personal bias that affects her editing" is your work - not mine. (ALL editors have biases that (potentially) affect their editing. But what you discuss with colleagues in the day-to-day editing environment are the individual edits, not their biases.) I am asking again: If you have a problem with me, take it to my talk page, or, if you take it elsewhere, notify me so that I may defend myself. And either way, provide diffs, please. Lightbreather (talk) 17:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• As far as editing practice, I am a little bit concerned by the lack of clarity in relation to this this edit by Collect (which Thenub314 has specifically raised in this discussion). Simply restating the edit summary on the talk page isn't especially helpful when a request for clarification is raised on the talk page, and the cited source is quoted alongside or juxtaposed against the article text (which appears to have happened here). Collect, even if the query was expressed in a fashion which seemed dramatic, I am sure it would not be that difficult to clearly establish why or how the source is not being followed or which part of the article text amounted to editorial opinion being interpolated in the article. So could you please assist, with a view of resolving the concern raised by Thenub314 and so that this ANI does not become a matter about multiple users? In particular, in this section of the article talk page, can you clearly specify which part(s) of the article text you removed here was editor opinion? Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:26, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment This was begun as a discussion of personal attacks by Scalhotrod. The attacks were largely "serious accusations" of ownership. When the data shows that an editor has made over 85% of the last 200 edits on an article it is a reasonable expectation that other editors will see ownership issues. To recognize that one editor is the dominant force on a page is not a personal attack. The case that this accusation was a personal attack is not made. Capitalismojo (talk) 18:37, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. First, there were two accusations. One is canvassing, the other, repeated at least three times, is ownership - and neither with evidence. Nowhere in WP:OWNERSHIP does it say that how many edits an editor makes, or a certain percentage of total edits to an article, is an example of ownership behavior. Nowhere. It does say to "Always avoid accusations, attacks, and speculations concerning the motivation of any editor," and that "Accusing other editors of owning the article may appear aggressive, and could be perceived as a personal attack." Further, WP:STEWARDSHIP says, "Unless an editor exhibits behavior associated with ownership, it's best to assume good faith on their part."

I am saying that unless someone has evidence against me that they want to cite with DIFFS, I'd like the accusations, attacks, and speculations to stop right now. Let's keep it on content. --Lightbreather (talk) 21:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a reasonable request. At some point, it becomes disruptive to continually make the same accusation without any intention of filing a report. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

NinjaRobotPirate it is a reasonable request if taken at face value, but there lies the crux of the problem. When we (myself and other editors) try to discuss edits with her, she makes statements that usually include something like (or to the effect of) "I believe...", "I feel...", "The source I'm using says...". In other words, she seems to take personally the edits that she makes. So then whenever anyone makes a comment about her edit style, she interprets it as a personal attack (hence this ANI) versus just an observation or comment on her pattern or style of editing. She then requests that "anyone with a problem" with her take it to her Talk page which makes no sense because we're trying to discuss content and WP content policy. Its this endless cycle that has become frustrating to several other editors who don't share her exact views. We would all like to be reasonable with LB if she would afford us the same courtesy. That includes backing down or just waiting long enough for others to have their views expressed so consensus can be reached. Patience is virtue that is sadly lacking on WP... --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 18:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Scalhotrod, I ask you to stop making personal comments - or if you're going to, to provide diffs - and you answer with more personal comments and still no diffs? From WP:ETIQ: Argue facts, not personalities. And from WP:TALKNO: When describing other people's contributions or edits, use diffs. Scal, please stop this now.

Is there an admin here who can help me with this? I just want the inappropriate personal comments to stop. Lightbreather (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather when are you going to figure out that talking "about" you is not a personal attack at least as WP defines it? You seem to interpret everything said about you as an attack. It's not and the sooner you realize this, the better off we will all be. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 20:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

"You seem to interpret everything said about you as an attack"? Untrue. I gave specific examples - with diffs - at the top of this discussion showing you accusing me of ownership and canvassing. Those are attacks. The talking about me without accusations are not attacks, but they are poor practice per WP etiquette. Stop it... Argue facts, not personalities. Keep it on content, not character. Lightbreather (talk) 21:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

@Scalhotrod, I think you and I have been getting along better the past day or two, so in a friendly way I am going to level with you. While you may have meant it as a fair warning... Comments like "Do you know the WP:OWN case your building against yourself" (mobile edit so that's a paraphrase) just don't come across that way. LB does have a point. We are all heated, but I suspect if we all try to keep that in mind when we are making posts we can improve these articles without any of us needing formal sanctions. Thenub314 (talk) 22:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

IP-hopping sock

172.56.10.248 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was blocked by Ponyo.

172.56.10.188 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) popped up and was also blocked.

Now there's 172.56.10.203 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) making unhelpful edits like this. They seem to be targeting Ponyo's edits. Is a rangeblock possible? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 02:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

And legal threats... ([94]). I was on board with RBI, but this is getting a bit out of hand. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The rangeblock calculator on Toolserver seems to have expired, but I've blocked 172.56.10.128/25 for a week, I think that covers it without collateral damage problems. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I've semi-protected a few of the target pages as well. The IP sock is just restoring disruptive edits that I reverted previously. Thanks to everyone for helping out while I was away. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 23:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Useitorloseit and Ta-Nehisi Coates - request for topic ban

• Useitorloseit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Ta-Nehisi Coates (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There is an issue with a persistent POV-pushing single-purpose account obsessed with the biography of Ta-Nehisi Coates. User:Useitorloseit's first edit in February was a naked attempt at smearing the subject, complete with the edit summary "added info about his criminal past." Subsequently, the user has continued to pursue a single-minded obsession with inserting information about the subject's alleged offenses and school discipline record while a child — 95% of the user's edits are related to that mission. Extensive discussion has taken place on the talk page, centering on issues of undue weight, appropriate wording, BLP concerns and the fact that there are no independent sources describing the incidents.

The user has been blocked twice for edit-warring and disruption, yet returns again and again in endless attempts at relitigating an issue that has been beaten to death. I submit that the user in question has exhausted community patience on this issue and should be topic-banned from any article related to Ta-Nehisi Coates. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:16, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

he has exhausted my patience. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:26, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

There has been very little substantive debate here because these users just keep focusing on me, not the content. And when the content does get discussed, they quickly run to the latest noticeboard to shut down debate. This is an article about a writer on issues on blacks and crime, who has written repeatedly about his own issues of delinquency. I believe the material enhances the article by adding to readers' understanding of this person, and the edit complies with all Wikipedia policies: it is well-sourced and relevant and there's no OR. I have proposed different versions of the edit to take account of their objections but these editors just don't like my proposed edit and instead of focusing on content they keep trying to shout me down by resorting to reporting me on various noticeboards. On the current proposal section the debate started swinging against them yet again and they have resorted to reporting me again. I was reported on the "Obvious Vandalism" board for editing my own Talk Page! This is clear forum shopping. Wikipedia rules state: "consensus can be assumed if editors stop responding to talk page discussions, and editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." I reply to all substantive objective they have and await their response for days, but these users just keep dropping out of discussion, then they come roaring back when I go ahead and make the edit and revert me. I request that they be given sanctions for their behavior. All I want is to discuss content in a civil manner and come to a consensus that works for all serious users. The previous proposal SGGH and I made shows that I am not disruptive. I have repeatedly offered alternate options to work out a consensus solution, only to be ignored until I make an edit; then they reply within minutes and revert me. You cannot reason with people like that. Just because I am a low-volume editor doesn't mean anything. I have made several contributions under past usernames but I never edit more than a few articles per year. I am not someone roaming around nitpicking just to get my numbers up for an eventual admin application. These users have consistently sabotaged the discussion process with their false accusations. Please don't let them do it again. Useitorloseit (talk) 04:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

You are the one who stops responding to talk page discussions and stops editing for weeks at a time, only to return and immediately insert disputed material.

Here, on April 24, is your last edit to the article talk page in the month of April. It is, at that point, clear that there is no consensus for your edits and that your proposal has been rejected.

You stop editing the article or its talk page for two weeks, and do not edit at all for an entire week.

Then you return on May 8 with a naked and undiscussed attempt at reinserting similar/the same material as was just rejected in the article talk page discussion. WP:BOOMERANG applies. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I waited for your response to my reply that there was more than just the book, but you never said anything. You are projecting your own behavior on me. I had 2 1 users in favor of the edit SGGH and I proposed. And the edit I made was a new proposal, not the old one. You are not a trustworthy describer of past events. Useitorloseit (talk) 04:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The talk page discussion was clear - the material in question was not acceptable. You ignored that discussion and reinserted the same, tired, rehashed disputed material. That you put it in a different place does not make it a "new proposal." The community has rejected your edits and moved on. When the community moves on, it's time to drop the stick. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Consensus can change. If you want to support your version, you need to engage debate. I gave you plenty of time to respond but if you just ignore my rebuttals, that is not my fault. You barely focus on content as it is. Useitorloseit (talk) 05:02, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. When I pointed out to this editor that their behavior was of the type we sometimes call a single purpose account, they responded by making a handful of edits to other articles, and then promptly returned to their Ta-Nehisi Coates juvenile "crime" obsession. The editor has rejected all suggestions to moderate their behavior, criticises those who take a break from their drama, mischaracterizes the comments of other editors, and sees support for their position where it does not exist. This is classic WP:IDHT behavior from an editor who has become an unproductive time sink on this BLP. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:54, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a bias against editors who only want to make a few edits. So what if I don't browse the recent changes page and dabble in every other article like some people? Anyone who has ever worked in editing knows word choice can be controversial; so what is different here? Wikipedia is the first thing that comes up whenever you Google anyone nowadays, and that is likely to remain true for a long time. it is important to get it as close to perfect as possible. Wikipedia should want editors who are dedicated enough to insist on quality, even if thye have to fight through baseless accusations and insults from people who almost never comment except on my motives. As I have said, I am a low-volume editor who has had several past usernames but I just don't edit much. Holding that against me would be a serious error. Useitorloseit (talk) 05:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

No, what you are seeing is not a bias against people who "only want to make a few edits"; it is a bias against people who only want to use Wikipedia to make a point pushing a personal agenda. particularly one held against a living person. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:08, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

You're just wrong. maybe you should stop floating from article to article and slow down and focus on quality a little more. You plainly have gotten it wrong here. Useitorloseit (talk) 05:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I won't have easy access to a computer for the next few days so hopefully I will be able to submit any responses to admin questions when I return. Needless to say I feel I have excellent rebuttals to all the charges these editors are making, and I want the chance to make them in any relevant forum. This is not a emergency (I've repeatedly stayed away for cooling off periods) so I think this thing can be dealt with then. The article is unchanged so there's no harm done and I would support going back to the last uncontroversial edit (which is what I thought we were about to do until I got the ANI notice). For a second there I thought we were about to actually work out a consensus. Useitorloseit (talk) 05:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
  • The issue has been discussed multiple times since February. We're tired of discussing it. You're the only person who keeps dragging it back up. It's time for you to drop the stick and move on. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:46, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Having looked at the article history, and the talk page, it seems self-evident that Useitorloseit is unwilling to accept consensus over this issue - and WP:BLP policy makes it clear enough that the consensus is correct. And frankly, I have to suggest that the above post, claiming inability to access a computer, looks to me like an attempt to avoid facing the consequences for tendentious behaviour. I see no reason why we should be obliged to delay a decision in circumstances where the evidence is so clear. AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not the one who took this to ANI at midnight on a Friday. Excuse me if I have other things to do on the weekend.

• Comment I have indeed been absent from this for quite a while now, I almost figured I had made my attempt to assist with the situation and then moved on. I happened to come across the original dispute somewhere - I can't recall if it was ANI or somewhere else - and I thought perhaps I could assist Useitorloseit by taking them away from the discussion and seeing if we could formulate a sentence that would meet Wikipedia's policies (BLPCRIME, etc.) and then together submit it for discussion. I did advise Useitorloseit several times that, should consensus be against them, then they would have to abide by it, but hopefully going about it in this better way would show that the process could be done right, regardless of whether the outcome was positive or negative. I personally did think perhaps there was a way in for the content Useitorloseit wanted to add, in one form or another, but I told Useitorloseit that I too would bow to the will of the community consensus and I happily do so. I also state, as I always have done, that I've never heard of, nor care about, the subject of the article. It was merely my attempt to resolve a content dispute and guide Useitorloseit through the process of discussion and consensus. If Useitorloseit cannot accept that consensus remains against them, then they ought to accept that and move on. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 08:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

SGGH, if you support the content, and I do, and at least one other person in the most recent proposal does (even though they labelled it oppose by apparent mistake), then doesn't that call into question where consensus is? At best it's a tie, isn't it? 3 - 3? If I'm wrong could you please explain how you're arriving at your estimate of consensus? Is there a conflict of interest for an editor to try to get me banned and therefore have their own preference be protected? Why isn't the right way forward to get all interested parties to sit down and work out phrasing that meets their understanding of Wikipedia policies? 166.216.165.111 (talk) 11:28, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

If consensus is 3/3 (though it is not a vote, the 3/3 can be an indicative yardstick IMO) then that suggests that the discussion needs to be broadened to include more editors. You can't act on an even split of opinion. That's what RfC is for. I can see where Useitorloseit may feel let down by the process somewhat, as it can be frustrating when you see support for your idea go nowhere. I don't think the original RfC instigated went the fair distance. I would support the idea of a broad RfC by a neutral in the discussion which included a number of editors - not just people who frequent the page in question but also people who frequent the BLP and BLPCRIME pages. Perhaps put an invitation on the BLP noticeboard and WP:BIO? S.G.^(GH) _ping! 13:56, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

That is, of course, if it is not decided to enforce a topic ban on you. I myself am neutral on that issue. On the one hand, I believe the initial way you went about your first rejection wasn't particularly good, and certain comments like "I'm not the one who took this to ANI at midnight on a Friday. Excuse me if I have other things to do on the weekend" aren't the most helpful either. On the other hand, after you and I had talked things through I think you presented your front in a much more appropriate and diplomatic way for the most part, and I think the first RfC didn't really conclude anything and failed a little. So I am neutral as I can sympathise with your frustration to a degree. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 14:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's the thing: the phrasing now is what is acceptable. In an article of this brevity, anything more would be undue weight.

If you want to work together to turn this into a featured article-quality biography that goes into great extent and great detail about all of Coates' life, then there should probably be a sentence or two using his own words to describe his school experiences.

But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about a really brief biography of just a couple of paragraphs, and you have done absolutely nothing but insist on adding as much information about his school disciplinary issues as possible. That is what is objectionable, and will remain objectionable no matter how long you want to argue it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:51, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban specifically about this issue, which can be lifted if this editor substantially contributes to the improvement of the article as a whole. Gamaliel (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Block and/or semiprotect needed

• Talk:Ashkenazi Jews
• Special:Contributions/107.161.122.170

An IP is posting rants that attack an editor. Would someone please attend to this (it's not quite WP:RFPP because a block is probably simplest and most appropriate). Johnuniq (talk) 08:06, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked. I'll keep an eye on it and semiprotect if needed. Black Kite (talk) 08:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks! Johnuniq (talk) 08:16, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Please ban Samuel Rosenbalm

Nothing to see here, folks. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Please ban User:Samuel Rosenbalm, that is Metapedia fan, white nazi and troll. See the edits of him, always remove text disturbing his racist theories. Who Control? Last edit was to defend Metapedia and troll the talk. I delete his nazi trolling but he placed it again with NO OTHER EDITS. He is only here to defend white racism. CONTROL ALL HE WRITE he only defend racism view. On metapedia sayd *how can be racist? is only a white aryan site. Is no racist!* Yes of course samuel, see the YELLOW DAVID STARS PATCH in each article about a JEW. SHAME! Metapedia is a disgusting hitler propaganda and say that holocaust is a hollywood movie. Samuel always defend racism destroyng wikipedia and now he defend directly his nazi site. Ban this troll, He only here to defend racist view in all his contributions. look what metapedia say of wikipedia using nazi german propaganda pictures of jimmy wales. Is a shame to see this troll defending this opera and spitting over wikipedia and shoah without any stop. you have the duty to block a man using wikipedia only to defamate wikipedia and jew :people. sign — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.239.159.220 (talk) 10:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User User:Saflieni continual personal attacks

I've already given this user multiple warnings here and here but this user still keeps attacking me. See here and here and here and here and here. I've tried to be reasonable and show good faith, but it has become impossible to have any discussion with this user. The user is also a bit confused about wikipedia policies - she believes that NPOV only applies to medical/scientific references. I tried to correct her in a calm way, but I think that is what has caused her outlashes. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:22, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

This complaint is best judged by looking at the context. It will become clear that the remarks cited here are reactions to insulting remarks and disruptive behaviour, including baiting. It seems the topic we discussed is resolved through a consensus that is not to sciencewatcher's liking. I suggest we accept reality, bury the hatchett and move on. No disregard was intended. I am not a "she", by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronic_fatigue_syndrome_treatment Saflieni (talk) 14:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Nope, I'm pretty sure I didn't make any insulting remarks or 'disruptive behaviour'. I just took at look at the talk page now, and discussion seems to have stalled. I agree with Tekaphor's remarks regarding policy, but he didn't address the current content dispute. I've bowed out of the talk page for now until the personal attacks are resolved. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a content dispute to me. The linked "attacks" aren't attacks. They aren't even uncivil, really, they are just strongly disagreeing with you. Please read WP:NPA for examples. When people disagree, they will get a little heated, it is expected. I don't see anything actionable in those diffs. If you guys can't hash it out on the talk page of the article, WP:DRN --> is thataway. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:11, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Deaths in 2013

• Special:Contributions/Deaths in 2013

This account is going over 500 times a posting continuous, Unintelligible edit. and Ignoring warning for long time. Please block of a short period of time.--Disputed (talk) 13:04, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I poked around a little bit, and they surely like to do a lot of small edits, but I didn't see any unintelligible edits in my sampling. Lots of tinkering around with formatting and such, but that isn't really against policy. Can you provide diffs of problematic edits? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

His editing is, Playful editing[95], wrong edit, incorrect information[96], and Unintelligible edit[97][98][99] too many. his posting continuous and Ignoring warning deserves block.--Disputed (talk) 14:43, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Um, Disputed, I think you may need to reconsider this post. First diff is him adding a column (but not populating it), second is fixing a ref (supports the text), third, fourth, and fifth are constructive edits changing the date into the article subjects native format, changing the column title to reflect the living status of the person, and them blanking their talk page. None of these are invalid edits. Calling for someones block for valid constructive edits is a bit quick on the trigger, don't you think? 96.35.92.18 (talk) 15:38, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm with 96.35.92.18 on this. Sometimes editing at the same time as someone who does quick fire edits like this can be inconvenient, but from what I'm seeing, every edit he does, he is doing something that is arguably constructive, even if you disagree with the content. His editing style is a little unusual, but there is no policy violation that I can see. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 15:56, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

However, he is not to stop the abnormal posting continuous and continue to Ignore Warnings in the talk page. his editing has not been improved yet. I think Requires warning or block.--Disputed (talk) 23:22, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Since you didn't get the hint, I'll be more blunt: Warning for what? Block for what? What policy has he violated? What is "abnormal posting"? Posting that YOU don't like? What policy prohibits this? None. What is problematic is you giving him warnings when he hasn't violated policy. It is a policy violation for you to warn him for vandalising when he clearly hasn't vandalised. The only person I see violating policy is you. You need to read WP:VANDAL. Anything that doesn't fit that narrow definition shouldn't be called vandalism, and is actionable if it is. I recommend you stop templating him improperly, or it will be you that gets blocked. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, he hasn't stopped with the inappropriate warnings ("if reject dialogue, you blocked from editing" and such) and has now started leaving hidden messages to User:Deaths in 2013 in List of Japanese supercentenarians.--Atlan (talk) 12:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Is there a language barrier issue here? Deaths' editing is fine, Disputed's questioning and warning has been, well, disputed, but they still don't seem to understand what everyone is trying to say. 206.117.89.5 (talk) 16:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I removed the warnings at Deaths in 2013's talk page as they were completely over the top as well as against policy. I also linked them here as I could not see any previous link. AIRcorn (talk) 20:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Shared IP adress, admins please take notice

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Before using this computer, I received notification that the IP address I am has been used for disruption. I wish to notify admins that I am not associated with the IP adress's previous edits as I only log in to edit and am restricted to such. Also please take into account that besides one Star Wars article, none of the topics edited by this IP are in my field of interest nor have I edited these pages before. Just to notify you. Thanks Nadirali نادرالی (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• Actually, I just blocked you for a month for editing Pakistan related articles using this account, against the terms of your BASC unblocking. It only took you two days to violate those terms. We have no idea what IP you are using, which doesn't really matter anyway. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:32, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inflammatory ethnic-based remarks at AfD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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User:Fakirbakir has created one of those coatrack/POV/synth/content fork articles, Greater Romania (political concept). It has been nominated for deletion. Thus far, it has only garnered "delete" votes, and Fakirbakir's reaction has been the following: "In order to avoid possible bias in this debate I would like to ask for comments from non-Romanian editors."

I despise the mentality implicit in this comment, namely that editors of a particular ethnic background, whether real or alleged (User:Avpop, for instance, has not declared his ethnicity) cannot be trusted to make impartial judgments about a particular topic. Such comments probably violate WP:NPA and certainly are not conducive to a productive debate. Editors' opinions should be weighed on their merits, not on the supposed ethnicity of the person making the comment. I hope to see Fakirbakir curb this noxious tendency to assign less weight to editors based on ethnicity. - Biruitorul ^Talk 21:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Your uptight comment typically depicts that this topic can be quite uncomfortable for many. I have removed my comment for the happiness of others. I would be glad if the admins here commented the deletion request. Fakirbakir (talk) 22:05, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it is an unfortunate misunderstanding. In my view User:Fakirbakir's comment is harmless. I consider he didn't want to accuse us of anything; he simply pointed out that we are Romanians discussing an article about Romania, consequently it can be supposed that we are emotionally involved. I don't see anything wrong in asking for opinions from 3rd party editors. Fakirbakir is (at least lately) a reasonable contributor and I think in the future such issues can be solved on his talk page instead of asking for external intervention. Avpop (talk) 00:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possibly compromised account

I can't recall ever having run across User:Wer900 before, but after glancing through the editor's past contributions, this vandalistic edit, the associated edit summary, and the editing of that particular article seem to be rather uncharacteristic for the account. Is this something that should be looked into? Deor (talk) 23:23, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I would want more opinions, but I will just say that it does indeed look odd, and bringing it here was the right move, just in case. I went ahead and left a notice on their talk page regarding this discussion. I understand your hesitation but I felt it still needed to be done. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• It could be a compromised account. But maybe not. See this conversation which shows that Wer900 is dissatisfied with Wikipedia in general. Now, criticizing Wikipedia does not automatically make him a disruptive editor (everyone is entitled to their opinions, and Jimbo's talk page is a frequent place to express frustration with the project from even our most productive editors) but it could be a sign that he is experiencing burnout of some kind. Especially when you consider that Wer900 has contributed only sporadically since those criticisms. Perhaps we're not seeing an account that was compromised, but someone who is fed up with this place? -- Atama頭 23:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Pattern of reverting edits made on other user's talk pages

User:Katieh5584 has a pattern of repeated reversion in other people's user talk pages, where the edit was OK and not vandalism or a violation of BLP, such as at:

• User talk:Luxinstant [100]
• User talk:Jim1138 [101][102][103]
• User talk:This lousy T-shirt 18 reverts
• User talk:Globalautousa history
• User talk:Castingmind history
• User talk:Laratadelaciudad history
• User talk:2602:30A:2CA3:8290:7D66:9872:96A1:1776 history

This user also reverted my edits to her user talk page, when I warned her what she was doing was wrong. A lot of the edits mentioned above are actually reversions of people removing warnings from their talk page, which is discouraged but allowed on Wikipedia. Also, when I warned her [104] what she was doing is wrong, she continued to edit war [105] on User talk:A_delicious_pot_pie. She was warned by me and FreeRangeFrog 3 times in total, and continued to edit war at A delicious pot pie's talk page. She was, in fact, given a final warning by Barek, and this continuing pattern of talk page reverts against newcomers should be considered under Wikipedia:BITE. Pretty much all of her reversions affect people who are new users, and I think that we need to deal with this continuous use of vandalism rollbacks (using twinkle) on other peoples talk pages, as this may be an abuse on Wikipedia tools. There are many more examples, which I will post if you ask. 123chess456 (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

One thing I don't understand is why @FreeRangeFrog: idef semi-protected her talk page for user request within own userspace, as I thought that admins where not allowed to protect talk pages for that as it prevents newcomers for asking questions, and only protect if consistent attacks are happening to the user. Also, yes I think that Katieh should be notified about reverting talk pages unless the edit is a Attack or BLP violation. TheMesquito^buzz 00:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind she's autistic, so I think it's a lack of not knowing better, rather than stubbornness. I'd hate to see her lose the rollback because she has made a lot of reversions of genuine vandalism. Perhaps we can explain this rule another way and help her learn?

People were being downright nasty on her talk page/user page. Meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 00:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Meteor Sandwich, she should not lose rollback because of this, rather an explanation of the rules and then if it continues after that, then it should be discussed if she should lose rollback, but i don't see that is needed ATM. TheMesquito^buzz 01:08, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've seen Katie do some fine work in anti-vandalism. She shouldn't have rollback revoked this time, even if she's revert-happy. As much as I understand how Autism can make it difficult for someone to know what is appropriate and what is not in certain situations, it doesn't affect her overall intelligence and shouldn't be used as an excuse for things. In addition to an explanation of the rules, I think what would help most is someone working with her to improve communication skills, which she has indicated she struggles with. I am more than willing to assist/mentor her despite not being an admin or anything. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 01:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm autistic too, but on the "high" end of the "spectrum"; i.e., I can understand people a little better. I can take some time to try to help Katie, but I'm not sure what she needs help with.

I provided diffs or pertinent links, interested in understanding exactly what Katie doesn't get. Take a look at this diff. The person says: "Cmon, he my friend Irl and i'm just trying to troll him xD #SwagCorp.©" That's kind of a borderline case, I'm not really even sure what it means: not vandalism, not cursing, not exactly threatening, but strange and sounds like it might be threateneing: "I'm just trying to troll him" in particular (I'm guessing).

In nearly all the other cases, a failure to understand Wikipedia:BLANKING. It's policy that even blocked vandals can remove all warnings or notices as long as it doesn't interfere with communication. Most notices are for the user, not the admin: the admin can search through the history.

To specify exactly what should be reverted:

Revert these:

1. attacks that only try to hurt the other person (insults, name-calling, profanity)
2. inappropriate images [106][107]
3. blanking or trying to mess up someone's page
4. deletion notices (speedy deletions, MfD, PROD, etc.) for the page the deletion notice is on. The deletion notice is for the user, and they can remove it. So restoring the notice of Luxinstant's userpage deletion was not a good idea, but reverting someone who removed a speedy tag from their user page is an example of an okay revert.

Don't revert these:

1. nonsense, rudeness, or arguments
2. removal of warnings, block notices or bans, claims of sockpuppetry

Did that clear anything up? Feel free to revert me if I'm not being helpful. I find more information easier to work with, because I have to guess what people mean a lot less. Meteor_sandwich_yum (talk) 02:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Katieh5584 ask if you have any further questions. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 03:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to chime in and add that Katieh5584 has been very helpful at both SPI and COIN in reporting problematic editors. So I support the efforts to give Katie guidance rather than sanctions. -- Atama頭 00:04, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Repeated edit warring by single purpose account, Gija Wiman FourCommanderiesofHan

A single purpose account, Gija Wiman FourCommanderiesofHan, is repeatedly edit warring on articles relevant to Gojoseon. His or her contention is that Gija Joseon is a historical entity. Despite consensus, both academic and wikipedian[108], that Gija Joseon is ahistorical, he or she continues to edit war on his or her POV repeatedly without any discussion or consensus whatsoever[109][110]. This edit warring needs closure. Cydevil38 (talk) 03:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, this has gone beyond being a content issue and has become disruptive. For "User:username that possibly suggests something of a POV with respect to 箕子, 衛滿 and 漢朝 matters" the "closure" is temporary, though. This still needs discussion, and I hope they will in talkative mood afterwards. While one month is usually quite a long time, Gija Wiman FourCommanderiesofHan edits infrequently, so in the circumstances it seems to me only a light tap of the WP:NOTHAMMER.

That aside, the talk page discussion mentioned above does not appear to me to have been conclusive. I suspect the reason for this is that the content under dispute itself is certainly not clear-cut: history and legend from two millennia ago are hard to untangle, and the early history of Korea has been subject to, well... It's not good enough to replace CPOV with KPOV or the other way around: what is required is NPOV. Maybe WP:DR might be a good place to go next? (I'd be happy to participate once I have the full list of Australian Women One Day International Cricketers up and running.) Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Possible legal threat at WP:BLPN

See [111], and note that User:Brian Josephson is a personal acquantance of Russell Targ - under such circumstances, it seems unwise to take Josephson's repeated references to 'defamation', 'libel', and 'the courts' as mere bluster, and his assertion that he isn't "threatening legal action" himself (which is obvious) doesn't alter the fact that he is issuing a 'warning' of potential legal action - contrary to WP:NLT policy as I understand it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Incidentally, given Josephson's involvement with Targ's parapsychology research, it should probably also be borne in mind that WP:COI may be a factor here, in that it is clearly in Josephson's interest to promote Targ's work... AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The attempt to chill discussion was obvious. As was the resulting block the panda ₯’ 09:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I just wrote up a strong warning, which I think might have been enough, but the panda was faster. DangerousPanda, I won't unblock (unless a consensus for it should form here), but I ask you to reconsider. Easy to block later if they should insist on talking like that. Bishonen | talk 10:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

Right, and his comments about "going to the media" exemplify the reasons for the block overall. the panda ₯’ 10:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Comment. No opinion on the situation, but it is funny to see a Nobel prize winner blocked for harassment. It really should go to the news! This proves that Wikipedia is a truly democratic institution.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Is that an expression of delight in blocking a Nobel prize winner? It's not funny at all. Frankly, the block and this thread is embarrassing to see. A rush to block someone for pointing out possible defamation? Don't we want to keep defamation out of Wikipedia? Really, an allusion to defamation is reason to keep the possible defamation in and to block anyone who points it out? I rather do expect this is worthy of some Wikipedia-reputation-damaging coverage in other media. --doncram 11:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No, blocking a contributor isn't funny - regardless of their status. And I took no pleasure in bringing Professor Josephson's behaviour up here. It would however be entirely inappropriate to treat him in a different manner than other contributors - and it was evident both from the WP:BLPN thread and from his earlier posting at Talk:Russell Targ that Josephson was using claims of 'defamation' and talk of 'the courts' as leverage in the discussion, which is contrary to policy. As he was well aware. It was always open to him to make his point without repeated references to 'the courts', but he made his choice. And as for the media, if they want a cheap headline or two, so be it - but holding back sanctions against contributors who fail to comply with expected standards on the basis that it might result in bad press wouldn't do much for our long-term credibility. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Josephson intends to contact the media

See User talk:Brian Josephson#May 2014. Dougweller (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

He has every right to do so, and has my full support as a fellow Wikipedian. -A1candidate (talk) 12:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

What's your point, Doug? The New York Times, maybe?[112] Don't you think the user may be overestimating media interest, both in him and in Wikipedia? Paranormal blogs and coldfusionnow.org will probably care. I still think a warning would have been better than a block, but after Professor Josephson's fatuous "I'll be on the phone to my friends in the media when I can spare the time" threats, I feel differently about unblocking him. In the (unlikely) event that there should emerge a consensus for it, it won't be me doing it. Bishonen | talk 12:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

Actually, I think that the fact that he was blocked in Wikipedia has a potential to make it to the media, and the Foundation should be ready to comment. I am not advocating the unblock, since as I mentioned I did not look into any details (and I am not going to, given that my real-life research field is related to the Josephson effect).--Ymblanter (talk) 12:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::Just that it's useful to be forwarned, but maybe I took it too seriously, sorry. I doubt that the American media would pick it up, but the British tabloids are unpredictable, and if it looks like a slow news day when they have to go to press tonight.... And of course, everyone has the right to complain about anything and a warning might have been better but here we are. Dougweller (talk) 12:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I somehow doubt that the British tabloids will be interested. No sex. No 'immigrants'. No 'celebrities'. "Wikipedia bans top Prof" is hardly front-page material for the Sun, and I'm sure they are capable of inventing something more entertaining for their readers - particularly since they'd have to explain what the 'top Prof' got his Nobel prize for, and explaining the Josephson effect to Sun readers might be a tricky exercise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:01, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, if the tabloids are torn between that and Conchita Wurst's win of the Eurovision Song Contest yesterday, I know who my money's on, even though the Professor's a limey and she's not. But you're a limey too, Doug, so I'll defer to you in matters involving the British tabloids. Bishonen | talk 13:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

If articles such as Wikipedia Kills Page Linking Obama Slogan to Socialist Movement and Wikipedia’s Sexism Toward Female Novelists made it to the New York Times, the possibility of a sensationalist headline like "Wikipedia Bans Nobel Prize Winner'" appearing on Time magazine isn't that remote. -A1candidate (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• So what? The effect of those stories was -- what, exactly? The effect of this would be equally nil, and not just because nobody really pays attention to Time magazine these days. But nice attempt to do Josephson's work for him there. --Calton | Talk 16:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

{ec}Never a limey, Bish - I have a UK passport but if the US suddenly adopted an NHS style health service I'd be trying to figure out whether I wanted to move to Seattle or Asheville. Dougweller (talk) 14:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• This post from Brian is imo a good enuf reason to remove the ban https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Brian_Josephson&diff=prev&oldid=608055867 Mosfetfaser (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

You're mistaken, please see my reply on his page. How could merely repeating what he said before he was blocked (=that he had no intention of instigating legal action himself) be a reason to unblock? It's not logical. I've tried to make it clear to him what's required (and it's not by any means grovelling). Bishonen | talk 14:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

And the blocking Admin says his chief editor is preparing a piece. I agree that other Admins should take a look at Josephson's talk page. Dougweller (talk) 14:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

To be clear about this, are you suggesting that we should take Josephson's statement that he intends to contact the media into account when considering an unblock? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No, we only take into account what he does on-Wiki. Dougweller (talk) 15:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe Josephson should be unblocked but he is a problematic editor on parapsychology and pseudoscience articles. I can easily show diffs. He's caused trouble on a number of these articles, in some cases deliberately. I think the best solution would be a topic ban. Goblin Face (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

That he is. I think it's telling that he "has [the] full support as a fellow Wikipedian" of A1candidate, who I most recently encountered representing sources that acknowledge a speculative conclusion, as if it were fact, and reverting clarification that it was speculative, as WP:OR. Even though three of the four sources say the conclusion is speculative, and the fourth doesn't even mention it. George1935, who Josephson backed over homeopathy prior to the former's topic ban, has also opined supportively. I think Brian needs to find better friends.

That said, his tendency to add WP:OR is normal for a scientist (Wikipedia is different from scientific publication, this is always an issue with scientists) and POV, is limited in scale and for the most part he is genuinely civil, rather than faux-polite. I think at the moment he helps keep us honest. It's worth listening to what he says, even though we will tend to discount it on further investigation. Guy (Help!) 21:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of Unblocking User:Brian Josephson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Unblocked. Usually such discussions are allowed to run for several hours, but I am going to end this one now since (1) there have been several explicit calls for an immediate unblock, (2) the NLT issue which led to the block has been settled with Josephson stating clearly that he has no intent to pursue any legal action, (3) the blocking administrator, DangerousPanda has stated that he does not object to unblocking at this time. There are some good faith arguments for keeping the block in place. However, I have ignored the obviously insincere arguments that he should remain blocked because he is criticizing Wikipedia or because keeping the block in place leaves blocked users in good company. The issue of contacting the media remains unclear. Such statements may be viewed as intimidating but it is an area that is outside the scope of NLT policy that was the basis for the block. Sjakkalle (Check!) 18:12, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

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(edit conflict) I'm just going to add this here, I have no vote and am neutral on the matter, but it seems that people want discussion about it. TheMesquito^buzz 14:21, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

No, I think this is premature, Mesquito. (Who do you see wanting discussion about it..?) Please hold the discussion until BJ has had a chance to respond to my explanation on his page. That response will hopefully make discussion moot, anyway, and make it possible to unblock him right away. Bishonen | talk 14:34, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

Ok, I will strike my statement and section until it is need, if needed. If it is not, I will remove it TheMesquito^buzz 14:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock - Seems to be a misunderstanding compounded by ignorance of Wikipedia's quick response to an understandably sensitive issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:39, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Update. BJ has now posted a formal unblock request, which I hope will soon be reviewed by an uninvolved admin. IMO there are more useful things the rest of us can do in the meantime than continue to pick it over here on ANI. If people have specific comments that they feel may help the reviewing admin, User talk:Brian Josephson might be a better place for it. Bishonen | talk 14:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

The unblock request was declined, which seems surprising. There's a reference to continuing threats which is puzzling. DeCausa (talk) 15:27, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I also didn't understand the unblock request but since I may be missing something am not getting further involved. I am the person who reverted this section but very quickly tried to restore it, but had an edit conflict. It seems relevant now. Dougweller (talk) 15:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I fully agree with you, and i have tried to remove the section but was reverted so i guess people want it, so my statement will stay striked, if some one wants to unstrike the title, please do but keep my statement strike TheMesquito^buzz 15:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Mesquito. There's a little discussion about that on thesetalkpages. The unblock request has alredy been reviewed and declined, btw. Bishonen | talk 15:33, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

• Unblock immediately. This is idiotic. Josephson posted to the BLP noticeboard about what he believed to be defamatory statements in a BLP, which is entirely appropriate, whether his evaluation of the statements was correct or not. The word "defamatory" appears in 90-odd% of the BLPN archives, not to mention relevant policy/guideline pages, and is certainly not itself a justification for blocking. Josephson's posts in the rather amorphous followup discussion were not ideal, but were not intended as legal threats or intended to illegitimately chill discussion. This situation resemble the cases described by Jimbo Wales as cited in WP:DOLT, at Wikipedia:Don't_overlook_legal_threats#Jimmy_Wales_on_the_same. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 15:29, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Josephson's posts...were not intended as legal threats or intended to illegitimately chill discussion Uh huh. Sorry, not buying it, given their fairly crude nature and how Josephson immediately shifted tactics when his first -- the clumsy hints about possible legal ramifications -- got him blocked, moving to clumsy threats to tattle to his "friends" in the media. --Calton | Talk 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock immediately, he said sorry and Bishonen just have a chat to him about it and clear it up Mosfetfaser (talk) 15:34, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Me? I'm out. I tried to chat with Professor Josephson and got an earful of IDHT. Bishonen | talk 15:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC).

Yea, he is angry now so no chance of a solution. 15:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• It's pretty clear that this is no longer a misunderstanding. His statements may not have been intended as threats, but if he is unwilling to refrain from "educating" Wikipedia editors about legal matters, then I don't see that we have any choice but to keep the block in place. Gamaliel (talk) 15:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Unblock immediately per Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. The unblock decline by the uninvoled admin makes things worse. They make reference to continued threats. If that is a reference to going to the media (and I don't know if it is, but I don't see any other "threats") that shouldn't be used to decline an NLT block. DeCausa (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• You do understand the ultimate purpose of an NLT block, right? --Calton | Talk 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock, i agree this idiotic and think it is simply rude, per link to J wales' comments on similar cases previously. Nonsense that wikipedia editors here have no choice, of course there is choice. For example, if there is dispute about one article, freeze the article for the moment and discuss the potential libel at the Talk page. --doncram 15:44, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Do NOT Unblock Please do not unblock Brian Josephson, professor emeritus of physics at the University of Cambridge and winner of the 1973 Nobel Prize in Physics. When I too am blocked at Wikipedia, I want to be able to say I'm in the best of company. JohnValeron (talk) 15:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think I missed the part of Wikipedia policy where winning a Nobel Prize was a permanent "Get-Out-of-Jail-Free" card. Could you point me to that page? --Calton | Talk 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think you missed the part of my comment where I wrote, Do NOT Unblock. JohnValeron (talk) 16:50, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Unblock. Josephson has stated explicitly "I have no intention of undertaking any legal actions myself and am sorry if anything I have written may have given such an impression". What more could he possibly be expected to do? Deltahedron (talk) 16:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Stop the passive-aggressive attempts at chilling discussion and forcing his version of edits? You know, the ACTUAL purpose of the WP:NLT policy? --Calton | Talk 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• He was blocked for for making legal threats or taking legal action, and has explicitly repudiated any intention of doing either. That seems to me to resolve the issue. Now suddenly you raise other issues not part of the block rationale. Is there a community consensus or an admin decision to block for this new reason, based on diffs as evidence? Was he expected to guess what else he had to do? Deltahedron (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Do NOT unblock - I'm not aware of having made any threats...but merely tried to make people aware that there are risks associated with certain kinds of action...I think the media will be most interested in what has been happening here. I'll be on the phone to my friends in the media when I can spare the time to do this. Yeah, that sound familar: "Nice little web site you have here, be a shame if something happened to it." --Calton | Talk 16:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Do NOT unblock, especially using the threat to contact the media as an implicit rationale. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 16:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Do not unblock You know, he made a statement that WOULD have made me unblock ... but then he went right back to NLT territory the panda ₯’ 16:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Not opposed to unblock anymore He seems to have got the point now, based on this edit. IMHO, hand him the WP:ROPE - see if he does go back and strikeout his threats. See if he does change his way of acting - reblocks will be cheap, and will be clearly based on behaviour in the future. I'd unblock myself, but now that this discussion has started, I cannot do so unilaterally the panda ₯’ 17:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure you can. It's something about a rule preventing you I think?—John Cline (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Good Block The "I'm not the one making a legal threat, just giving advice" defence has never been a defence against using legal threats to intimidate other editors. This was definitely a good block in my opinion. The comment at WP:BLPN was a fairly naked attempt to intimidate editors into desisting from describing items such as remote viewing as pseudoscience. The was no libel and no court of law would describe this as defamation. The threat of contacting the media is also an attempt to intimidate. I would like to see ANI backing admins making a block in cases like this and commend AndyTheGrump for bringing it to ANI for admin attention. WCM_email 16:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Lifetime BAN is in order I think Josephson's most self-incriminating statement of all was: "I have better things to do than read what self-important editors have to say about what I write." Surely he must be punished—permanently—for such heresy at Wikipedia. JohnValeron (talk) 17:06, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Unblock posthaste otherwise I will do something! I might even make a phone call.—John Cline (talk) 17:33, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Unblock immediately. This is beyond ridiculous even by Wikipedia's bizarre norms. Eric Corbett 17:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• I will not unblock myself for the reasons I stated above, but given that we currently have consensus for unblock, the blocking admin agreed and does not object to unblock, and that the discussion turned into a good direction, I suggest that now someone summarizes the discussion and lifts the block.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:04, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Unblock. It was a tempest in a teapot, things have been retracted, best to let it go now. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User Bobynash beginning to vandalize again

Sorry to have to bother you with this again, but it appears that a certain user who has been trolling the golf pages is up to it again. Here is their contribution page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bobynash Please see if you can get through to them. Thank you. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 15:02, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've reported the user to WP:AIV TheMesquito^buzz 15:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've blocked them indefinitely as a vandalism-only account. It's obvious from their earlier edits and their response to previous attempts to communicate that they are not here to contribute to the encyclopedia. -- The Anome (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you -- by the way, in the last few minutes, user Bobynash left a derogatory message on my page, seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJohnsmith2116&diff=608064690&oldid=607068556 Johnsmith2116 (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Mike Rosoft has now reverted it. If you get any more problems from "Boby", under any account name, please bring it here, or WP:AIV, and it should be dealt with rapidly. -- The Anome (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive AFD by probable sock-puppet

The article Ree group was marked for deletion by Qfmd (talk · contribs) [113] stating at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ree group "that it was another Chihiro" (a recent hoax that made it to DYK) "sourced by a wide variety of nonexistent print sources". In fact, there are 21 references to the scientific literature, of which all are verifiable online. This is not a negligent mistatement, it is clearly a deliberate falsehood, and the reference to a notorious recent event makes it clear that it is some kind of reverse hoax. This is the first and only action by the user in question, which makes it clear that they are no novice but a sock-puppet: possibly of the instigator of the Chihiro hoax, Wjxb (talk · contribs), possibly the similarity of the user names is another part of the joke. In any case it is clear that User:Qfmd is here only to cause disruption. Deltahedron (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Most likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet of Wjxb; note the similarity in names and topic areas, plus an edit summary that refers to WP:WikiProject Mathematics as "our Project". 206.117.89.5 (talk) 16:43, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've indefblocked them as a disruption-only account, and also noted the likely sockpuppetry. -- The Anome (talk) 16:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt response. Deltahedron (talk) 17:28, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Legal threat at DRV

User:Reigningbc has issued several legal threats in a deletion review discussion, despite being asked repeatedly to read and adhere to WP:NLT. First, they posted this ("I contacted Wikipedia one on one, also I sent the legal team, who asked that the page will be reinstated on legal terms and that the page cannot be touched."), and after being asked to retract it, they replied with this ("I simply said my legal team is talking this over with Wikipedia, and that appropriate actions will be taken for a user who had harassed me on this website." - not about the article any longer, but about alleged harassment). I posted this warning to their talk page, and they replied (on their user talk page and the DRV page) with this. --bonadea contributions talk 18:04, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Reigningbc is a NEW editor just explaining what he meant as they were assuming and putting a lot of words in his MOUTH. --Reigningbc (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Also this could be an excuse to remove my editing powers so my deletion log goes through and cannot be defended by myself. --Reigningbc (talk) 18:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The situation will hopefully be resolved without any need for a block - discussion underway on the user's talk page. --bonadea contributions talk 18:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Reigningbc is certainly doing himself no favor with his clumsy comments. However, assuming good faith here, having one's own lawyer(s) contact Wikipedia does not itself fall under NLT (although what the lawyer(s) say might or might not). If the substance of the communications falls under NLT, I would expect an office action (or something like it) to be taken as appropriate. I assume that Wikipedia prefers that people who believe they may have legal claims have their counsel talk to our legal department rather than directly escalating to litigation. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello the big bad wolf or whatever you want to call yourself, the person and I discussed this on my talk page and I followed her guidelines for this post to be removed and we are talking it over. Thanks. --Reigningbc (talk) 19:52, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse a NLT block unless and until Reigningbc explicitly and unconditionally disavows any intent to pursue legal action against a Wikipedia editor for conduct that occurred on-wiki. Furthermore, a block may be merited on civility grounds. Finally, given Reigningbc has a COI in this article as someone who has admitted to working for a management agency that represents the subject of the article at DRV, Reigningbc may qualify as a paid advocate under WP:NOPR. Therefore, a topic ban may also be merited. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

  And I want to clarify that I don't consider Reigningbc's striking-out of the words "legal" and "law" in the offending comments to suffice. Reigningbc needs to explicitly state that he or she will not be pursuing legal action against a Wikipedia editor to remain a member of the community. While Reigningbc is free to pursue legal remedies, we cannot allow him or her to continue contributing here until such legal action is resolved. This is particularly needful given this statement that Reigningbc "will keep things to [him/herself] revolving [sic] any of the issues listed above", and this statement that Reigningbc seems to contemplate a legal obligation on Wikipedia's part to restore the article, which in turn strongly suggests an intent to continue pursuing legal remedies. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:49, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

For the last and final time I AM NOT A COI. I work under a team, a team owned by Brandon Cyrus, HOWEVER I DO NOT SPEAK TO HIM OR KNOW HIM PERSONALLY, personally to myself I am a BIG FAN of his work WHICH IS WHY I CHOSE TO WORK UNDER HIM. I was NOT paid for the article, I DID IT OUT OF FANDOM, out of RESPECT, out of COURTEOUS, which is what none of you editors have for attacking me! I will post that I'm not pursuing legal action on the article! --Reigningbc (talk) 20:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

That you work under a team that represents Brandon Cyrus is about as strong a COI as you can get without personally knowing someone. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:54, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a social team that works for a large talent management, I work under thousands of people --- not my fault that we are actually signed to Brandon Cyrus and I can't help it nor stop it. --Reigningbc (talk) 20:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

A social media marketing team? Hoo boy. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:58, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)In light of this statement by Reigningbc, which seems to constitute an explicit and unqualified disavowal of an intent to pursue legal action against Wikipedia editors, I believe the NLT situation has been resolved. Administrative action may still be merited on COI and civility grounds, however. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:57, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Mendaliv. However, I do not believe that I am in anyway a COI, unless other editors and authors who are fandoms and have jobs are disciplined as well. --Reigningbc (talk) 20:59, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• You have a textbook conflict of interest. Your first loyalty is to Mr. Cyrus, not Wikipedia. The conflict is that our interest is publishing an encyclopedia whereas your interest is to promote someone who is paying your company, while using Wikipedia as a means to that end. According to Wikipedia policy, that is a clear COI as money from him goes directly or indirectly into your pocket. It isn't even debatable. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 21:10, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Editors are not "disciplined" because of conflicts of interest, Reigningbc. They exist, they are not rare. The important aspect is to be transparent about your conflict of interest. You have disclosed your involvement in his career (which is good, that's better than keeping it secret) but you also have to realize that it might bias your writing on Cyrus. Yes, there are fans of airplanes, silent screen actors, TV shows, musicians, manga, cars, etc. working on articles concerning topics they care about.
But two points: 1) The best editors are conscious of their bias and work to include criticism alongside their descriptions of the subject. They don't include WP:TRIVIA that would be more appropriate on an official site, a fan site, a Tumblr or a Wikia site where there are no standards for notability or reliable sourcing. The standards on Wikipedia are higher.
And 2) what also works against an individual editor's conflict of interest is that unless an editor has a topic ban, any editor can edit any article. That means that no one WP:OWNs an article, not fans, not critics. So, if an article leans too much in one direction, there are other editors who can work on correcting any imbalance. And I hope you realize that if you get this Cyrus article into main space, any editor will be able to edit it, that there is no permanent version of any article on Wikipedia. Well, this has gone beyond legal threats so I'll sign off. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• I closed the DRV, consensus is abundantly clear. Anyone who feels like explaining the facts of Wiki-life to the user is welcome to try. Guy (Help!) 21:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

We'll see what Wikipedia will have to say in their emails back to me. 'Thanks' for not blocking my editing powers though. --Reigningbc (talk) 00:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Request to effectuate move ban for two editors

Two users Kwamikagami (talk · contribs) and Skookum1 (talk · contribs) have been disrupting articles anout Native American languages and ethnic groups over the past few months movewarring and filing dozens of long move discussions. The issue includes the question of when to prefer native names for languages and ethnic groups and whether the ethnic groups should automatically the primary topic FOo and the language of the groups should be at the disambiguated title at Foo language, or whether both ethnic groups and languages should be disambiguated to Foo language and Foo people. I think the moving around of articles on my watchlist is getting fairly disruptive and I think it would make sense to prohibit both of them from using the move function. There is an ongoing discussion here User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:33, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• Comment As with the recent ANI filed by Kwami for 3RR when there was no such thing committed, this is a nuisance ANI filed by someone who has very vocally voiced his NPA/AGF about me at Talk:Chaouacha:
  • he accuses me of being a "spiteful jerk" for simply moving something with a "people" dab onto a redlink that had none; impugns my motives for that very simple move
  • says "not going to waste more time on your crap".
  • falsely claims there "a valid norm having articles about ethnic group located at X people" as if it was the norm, which it isn't, nor ever was, though aficionados of NCL have made that claim as if NCL were policy
  • says "there is no requirement for articles to be located at the shortest possible title" which is not what TITLE or PRIMARYTOPIC say at all.
  • Another mis-statement is this " failed to get consensus for your opinion over most articles where you have suggested this" is wildly wrong; 90% of the RMs filed on this were moved and the disambiguation (often added by Kwami) removed;
  • then further distorts reality and impugning my motives by concluding that sentence with "now picking the low han[g]ing fruit by moving the articles for which there are no articles about languages yet". And "you are just choosing to make it look like that out of spite and a weird preference for ambiguous titles". Actually that "weird preference" is in TITLE under CONCISENESS and PRECISION, and can also be found in PRIMARYTOPIC, DAB, and WP:NCET.
  • Accusing me of "spite", "weird preference for ambiguous titles", "spiteful jerk" and such belie the claim that this ANI is only about his irritation about seeing things on his watchlist "moved around". It's not like he's coming at this as someone neutral
  • "The moving around of articles on my watchlist" here is a distortion, as the mass of the articles in question were, as noted above re his rank comments on Talk:Chaouacha, were moved by RM.
  • In the case in question, Halkomelem, the move was in accordance with policy, namely TITLE/CONCISENESS/PRECISION and also with NCDAB and more. The only thing that's made it controversial and a "move war" is Kwami maintaining that a "Halkomelem people" exist and are a competing PRIMARYTOPIC for Halkomelem, the language, which is spoken by a good two dozen separate groups; Kwami in his reversion of the move, which was done by @Anthony Appleyard: after I requested is a technical move, said I had provided no refs; neither had he for his claim that such a people as the Halkomelem people exist (Halkomelem-speaking peoples do);
    • in GoogleBooks there are 63 google refs for "Halkomelem people", mostly older or low-quality and to do with the language, vs 506 for "Halkomelem language".
    • There is no "Halkomelem First Nation", no ethnic group called Halkomelem, the name itself means the language. As for the ongoing discussion at WP:NCL, Maunus's version is a distortion:
      • "the primary topic FOo and the language of the groups should be at the disambiguated title at Foo language, or whether both ethnic groups and languages should be disambiguated to Foo language and Foo people"
    • It is a distortion because the widely-accepted primary topic of FOO in these cases is the peoples, not the language, and the issue of whether or not disambiguation must be added to people titles is is what is being not debated exactly, but filibustered against by Kwami, who wrote the passage of NCL that applied that claimed-to-be-policy across hundreds of titles and who is edit warring over changes to NCL that the emergent consensus in the aforesaid RMs and which is very evident in discussion posts by Cuchullain, JHunterJ, Uyvsdi, CambridgeBayWeather and myself, who wish that NCL be brought into line with TITLE and DAB and PRIMARYTOPIC, which since Kwami's Feb 2011 change to it
    • Kwami has been edit-warring NCL, making reversions of any changes to his preferred/self-authored version which try to bring its flawed text into line with TITLE/DAB etc. He is fighting against and blocking consensus by non sequiturs and mis-stating what other people have said, and fielding POV forks as if others had said them, and also engaged in a heavily editorialized CANVASS entitled "Drastic change in article naming, potentially moving thousands of articles" to try to recruit support for his position at WP:WikiProject Languages, which is out of order according to rules for discussions and still has not been removed and replaced by a neutral announcement of the NCL discussion; that same issue was levelled at me re the Boundary Ranges CfD, as some here may remember, and I complied and changed the announcements.
  • Maunus' paraphrase of the NCL debate is actually is redundant if you read it carefully; both his phrases say that the primarytopic/people should be disambiguated alongside that of the language; that is not the case at all; the issue has to do with the use of a language naming convention to force a "people" disambiguation on ethnic group articles even when it is not needed, or is even inaccurate (many should be plural, for one thing, if that is used at all);
  • Those seeking to bring NCL into line with policy and other guidelines (namely everyone but Kwami, at least insofar as current participants go) also hold that if a language-name needs no disambiguation and is the primarytopic of its name, then it should not have disambiguation, which is the case with "Halkomelem", which is well-known in my part of the world and in use as a standalone term for the name of the language of the Sto:lo peoples, Musqueam, Kwantlen, Cowichan and many others; it needs no disambiguation nor does it occur commonly in English with such disambiguation.
  • As with Kwami's recent ANI filed against me despite his own very questionable and erratic behaviour at NCL and beyond (including the Halkomelem reversions), this ANI is a nuisance and ANI and fielded by someone whose own behaviour and attitude, as detailed above re Talk:Chaouacha, is highly questionable. His "get a life" shot at me from last fall I'm too busy to bother looking it up; his NPAs against me at Talk:Chaouacha are what needed an ANI, I've been too busy working on articles to bother.Skookum1 (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Whitewashing at Larry Sanger

After Wikipedia, Sanger is probably best known for Citizendium. However, there's a concerted effort to remove all commentary on the success or failure (mostly failure) of his projects, instead whitewashing the article to state he founded various things, but leaving out what happened. At the moment, thanks to the whitewash the article's lead skips from him criticizing Wikipedia, to founding an alternative, then talking about other things he did. Surely that his alternative failed miserably is relevant to the discussion? Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 22:42, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden, I have no objections at all to including negative aspects in the article as long as they are presented in accordance with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. I do not think administrator intervention is required here; the dispute is being discussed on the talk page—as it should be. Mz7 (talk) 23:13, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Yet you object to a reliable source - with no contrary sources providing any contrary judgement - being quoted accurately, instead waning to modify their words to make a different conclusion about the project's future. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 23:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I have objected to; it is true that reliable sources have criticized Citizendium. However, what I do object to is the article's previous presentation of this criticism. Previously, the article read: "The site has failed to attract anything like Wikipedia's audience, and its future seems grim as of 2011." I had proposed on the article's talk page that this be changed to "Timothy B. Lee from Ars Technica noted in 2011 that Citizendium has failed to attract a large audience and that its future seems grim." I did not eliminate the point of view at all, nor am I whitewashing Sanger. I am rephrasing the content to maintain a neutral point of view. Mz7 (talk) 23:30, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I just saw this thread. First, a discussion is taking place at the article talk. Second this is about including a prediction from 2011(!) about CZ's future, which the (now badly outdated) prediction from 2011 calls "grim". The question is: This being 2014, how long are we supposed to recycle predictions about "grim" futures on BLP articles and at the lead, without violating WP:UNDUE and WP:CRYSTAL? I am not a regular at the Sanger article and only involved myself in this today after I saw the abhorrent state of the lead featuring predictions from 2011 and language such as: Citizendium has failed to attract anything like Wikipedia's audience, and its future seems grim as of 2011. For more info please see the article talkpage. But I think this thread should be closed because there is no admin action required for this matter, except advice perhaps to the OP about when to open threads at ANI and when to AGF about other editors when using loaded terms such as "whitewashing" and "abuse of sources", (see article talkpage for the latter), when this has not occurred. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 01:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)