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Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list News and announcements Tranche XXIV of the WikiProject coordinators has been elected. The October newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C. Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment Featured article candidates Yugoslav torpedo boat T6 • Boot Monument • Roswell incident • Busbridge War Memorial • Battle of Big Black River Bridge • Teddy Wynyard • Siege of Breteuil Featured article review Byzantine Empire • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 • Isaac Brock • Pre-dreadnought battleship Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Miyoshi Nagayoshi • Lockheed YF-22 • USS Texas (BB-35) • John S. McCain Sr. • Project Pluto Peer reviews 1939 Liechtenstein putsch • Sher Shah Suri • Rwandan genocide • Battle of Chunj • War of the Antiochene Succession Good article nominees Mohammad Shah Qajar • Battle of Ekiokpagha • Simon Stuart (general) • Dabney Coleman • Crusading movement • Black and Tans • Ottoman destroyer Yarhisar • Regency of Algiers • History of the Regency of Algiers • Perdiccas • Ziaur Rahman • Pierre François Bauduin • Federalist No. 29 • Mongol invasion of Khorasan • HMS Sheffield (C24) • Charles the Bold • James Alexander Ulio • Central Powers • Short Sunderland in New Zealand service • Te Pōrere Redoubts • Aromal Chekavar • Edward W. Gantt • Tumu Crisis • 1838 Mormon War • Mseilha Fort • SMS Viper • SMS Hay (1860) • SMS Albatross (1871) • Shō Hashi Good article reassessments Battle of Plataea • Mehmed II's Albanian campaign • USS Texas (BB-35) • Hans-Ulrich Rudel • Haile Selassie • Joseph McCarthy Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (149,030) • only work on referencing and citation (43,223) • work on coverage and accuracy (124,510) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,912) • work on structure (31,927) • only work on structure (336) • work on grammar (8,179) • only work on grammar (46) • work on supporting materials (33,001) • only work on supporting materials (1,291) • assessment (2) • assessment as lists (0) • project tags fixed (4) • assessment checklists added (0) • assessment checklists completed (0) • task forces added (5) • attention to task force coverage (654)

Interview invitation from a Wikipedia researcher in University of Minnesota

Hello all,

I am Bowen Yu, a Ph.D. student from GroupLens Research at the University of Minnesota - Twin Cities. Currently, we are undertaking a study about turnover (editors leaving and joining) in WikiProjects within Wikipedia. We are trying to understand the effects of member turnovers in the WikiProject group, in terms of the group performance and member interaction, with a purpose of learning how to build successful online communities in future. More details about our project can be found on this meta-wiki page.

If you are interested in our study and willing to share your experience with us, please reach me at bowen@cs.umn.edu. The interview will be about 30 - 45 minutes via phone, Skype or Google Hangout. You will receive a $10 gift card as compensation afterwards.

Thank you, Bowen Bobo.03 (talk) 23:10, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

A-Class review for List of Indian Coast Guard directors general needs attention

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for List of Indian Coast Guard directors general; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 08:26, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Units and formations with numerical titles failing to display properly in categories

A recent algorithm change to the way categories display has inadvertently screwed up the categorization of many articles on Wikipedia including the military categories of units and formations with numerical designations (1st Infantry Regiment, etc.), so instead of displaying the 1st Infantry Regiment (01) under "0", 14th Infantry Regiment under "1", 32nd Infantry Regiment under "3" and so on, it now lumps them all under "0-9", e.g. see Category:Infantry regiments of the United States Army and Category:Infantry regiments of France... There is a discussion about this at Wikipedia talk:Categorization#Category sorting update which you are invited to join. --Bermicourt (talk) 14:41, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

As I understand the change, what it is intended to do is remove the need to "pipe" numerical lists, so that it now displays 1st, 2nd, 3rd naturally, rather than the preivous, 1st, 101st, 10th, 2nd display. It would only mess up the order of heavily "piped" lists. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:03, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Official History of the Great War DVD-ROM question

History of the Great War I'm redoing the article but need information on the NMP dvd-rom publications, can anyone help? Thanks Keith-264 (talk) 15:01, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion

I just moved 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion to Category:Field artillery battalions of the United States Army. Is that correct? Is a "Field Artillery Observation Battalion" a type of Field artillery battalion or is it a different thing? Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:13, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Formally, it's in the Field Artillery Branch, so I guess it's OK, even if they entirely lack any cannon.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I moved this article to Category:Field artillery units of the United States Army so thankyou Kendall-K1 for finishing the job. Buckshot06 (talk) 19:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Passchendaele

Anyone mind if I move the title to The Third Battle of Ypres or The Battles of Ypres, 1917? Thanks Keith-264 (talk) 00:15, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of moving this discussion to Talk:Battle of Passchendaele#Move suggestion to avoid duplication. Please continue thither. Alansplodge (talk) 16:29, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Use of succession boxes

A disagreement has arisen on the use of succession boxes in articles on subjects who commanded units that generally do not have stand-alone (blue linked) articles. I would appreciate additional input on the matter; the discussion is at Talk:Wolfgang_Späte#Succession_box. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Operation Brown Water

Would anyone be interested in joining a new special project to cover brown water ships like Monitors, gunboats, or any other ships that served in rivers, it would be broken down into the following phases:

• I: Ships

The ships and their classes

• II: Equipment

Any weapon or piece of equipment on it.

• III: Campaigns (Name suggestions welcome)

Any battle, war, or any event in which two enemies, with at least one being brown water ship, fired on each other.

• IV:Major Events

Development of them.

• V:Biographies

Important engineers and admirals/commanding officers

• VI:Miscellaneous

Anything obviously brown water related that doesn't fit in anything else.

• Would anyone be interested? Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 22:50, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Stephen Bannon help with United States Navy career info

Stephen Bannon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stephen_Bannon#United_States_Navy_Officer

Can people please help to add his United States Navy service to his infobox?

Specifically, trying to find date range for his years of service, and his ending rank?

And also to add section on that military service to the text of the article, itself?

Thank you ! 69.50.70.9 (talk) 09:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed article

I am proposing an article on the 1297-98 expedition/campaign by the English to Flanders. I am not sure how to describe the article as I have seen expedition and campaign used in texts. I suggest one of the following:

• English expedition to Flanders (1297-98)
• English campaign to Flanders (1297-98)

Any comments would be appreciated. Regards Newm30 (talk) 23:33, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

The first looks better to me. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 23:36, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I would go with the first title choice. Kierzek (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

You need to use a dash ("–") instead of a hyphen in the date ranges. Also I'm pretty sure WP:MOSDATE was recently changed to require four-digit years even in a range like this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:01, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I just checked, two-digit end years are ok for two consecutive years like this. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

AIUI only where space is at a premium, as in tables with numerous columns; elsewhere full years are definitely preferred.—Odysseus1479 22:26, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

No: when the years are consecutive or space is at a premium. ‑ Iridescent 22:34, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

It would be English campaign in Flanders if that form was used. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks will go with English expedition to Flanders (1297—98). Regards Newm30 (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

• Year ranges like that should use an ndash (short dash) without spaces per MOS:DATERANGE, e.g. 1297–98. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:52, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

The article already exists under the name of Anglo-French War (1294–1303).--Catlemur (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

This is a broader war and I could include a paragraph with main article link to English expedition to Flanders (1297–98). The reason for this is that there were other expeditions to Gascony that also fit within the war and I can go into further detail and reasons and issues than trying to tie it all up in one article. Regards Newm30 (talk) 01:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Luftwaffe pilot web-resources

Hi team Apologies if this has been queried before. Can you please comment on these on-line resources regarding German WW2 pilots. If you read through their introductions and then their bibliographies you will find they have done a huge amount of research and accessed extensive original microfiche records and many respected books on the subject matter. Having a small library on the German pilots (30-50 books) I find extremely close correlation with the data provided in these resources and the published materials and a high co-incidence on the same published sources. Would you accept their accuracy as a suitable reference for Wiki-articles?

http://www.ww2.dk/lwairfields.html & http://www.ww2.dk/Airfields%20-%20General%20Introduction.pdf

http://www.ww2.dk/lwoffz.html & http://www.ww2.dk/Lw%20Offz%20-%20Introduction%20-%20Apr%202016.pdf (from 50000 official microfiche documents - p18-20 detail the official British War Archives used, which included 160 tonnes of captured documents (p18))

https://web.archive.org/web/20130928070316/http:/lesbutler.co.uk/claims/tonywood.htm (also with extensive Allied air-war information. Individual files have details of the exact official microfiche records used for that file)

I have downloaded and merged these files onto a single spreadsheet and filtering by individual pilot gives some of the most complete records I have ever seen. I don't believe they have been fabricated nor promoting any pro-Nazi agenda. Your comments please, can people verify details of the official Allied archives used? Do people have doubts to their authenticity? thanks Philby NZ (talk) 05:26, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

G'day, I think it might be best to post this query on the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, as they might be better equipped to assess this. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 04:12, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Liberation struggles and liberation movements

Howzit all.

Posting this here as it's especially pertinent to military conflicts, and their description thereof, on Wikipedia.

I work mostly on African conflict related articles, and something I've increasingly noticed is the use of "liberation lingo", describing wars and conflicts as "liberation struggles" and the parties that waged them as "liberation movements". WP:LABEL says terms like "freedom fighter" are vale-laden labels which attempt to skew the readership's opinion, so my question is do the former two also fall into this category?

Liberation-this, or liberation-that is, I believe, an example of loaded language (except when used as a proper noun, such as National Liberation Front or Vimochana Samaram). It's use is common in describing the liberation of European territories from Nazi rule following WWII in the First World; however, in the Third World the word is mostly derived from communist terminology and used to denote a successful guerrilla war or an insurgency. Often both sides would claim to be fighting for freedom. Use of this language in that particular context is currently grossly pervasive in some areas of the encyclopedia. It doesn't help that the United Nations has a list of "liberation movements" it recognises, but then again the UN isn't subject to the rule of NPOV.

If indeed liberation lingo is an enormous breach of WP:WORDS and WP:LABEL as I suspect, we should make it a point to avoid this terminology in our articles as much as possible.

I've already broached the topic at Manual of Style, but was informed I should gauge consensus in the community first. As all of us at MILHIST will probably be the most affected by any change in policy towards conflict-related articles I felt we would likewise benefit the most from this discussion. --Katangais (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I could see using these terms when a foreign occupier has been replaced by domestic rule, as in the WWII examples you cite. Agreed it seems inappropriate when one domestic ruler is replaced by another, even if the first was a dictator and the second a representative democracy. Can you link to some examples of what you would consider to be inappropriate use? Kendall-K1 (talk) 18:04, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Here are just a few of the examples, which I've identified over the past couple of months. Nearly all of these concern the Rhodesian Bush War and the various guerrilla campaigns directed against South Africa's apartheid government.

It's clear that the trend of describing internal and civil conflicts as "liberation struggles" waged by "liberation movements" is not going to go away any time soon. It's common lingo in Africa and parts of Asia (especially India) and South America. I believe this deserves some sort of clear consensus as to when it's appropriate and when it's not. --Katangais (talk) 21:05, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

If only descriptive terms are to be used, how many conflicts that you approve of are going to have to be renamed invasions, repressions, colonial wars, slaughters and terrorist atrocities? It might be better to try a case-by-case analysis of the RS. Keith-264 (talk) 21:52, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

None. With the possible exception of Bangladesh Liberation War, there are no articles concerning specific conflicts which include "liberation" in their titles. This is mostly a content rather than a title issue. A case-by-case analysis would be plausible, but based on what precedent(s)? --Katangais (talk) 22:18, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I've looked over a few of your examples and I am now inclined to agree with Keith-264 (about case-by-case analysis of the RS). What we call a particular conflict should depend on what the RS call it. Your first edit is correct, because we have an article by that name, so that's what we call it, presumably based on RS (if not, there needs to be an article move discussion). Your use of "First Gulf War" in the second edit is correct for the same reason. Your third edit should just say what the RS says: "loyalty to Gaddafi for his support for the anti-apartheid struggle." So the article should say not "South African liberation movements", not "South African nationalist movements", but "South African anti-apartheid struggle". I don't think we need any extra policy around this. I did not check the rest of your examples. Kendall-K1 (talk) 22:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

Trouble is, I wouldn't like the term First Gulf War because that looks like an ideologically biased term to me. I'd prefer terms like First US War of Aggression against Iraq and Apartheid, Zionist Occupation of Palestine. Keith-264 (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

So you don't believe liberation struggle and liberation movement are in and of themselves value-laden labels which should be avoided.

I can't seem to get a clear answer on whether these constitute a violation of NPOV or not. They said the same thing at Manual of Style. Just for once I'd like a "yes", "no", clear-cut response. --Katangais (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you'll get a yes or no answer. Like all loaded words, we shouldn't use them unless RS does. And even then, if there is disagreement, we attribute the label and give both sides. But beware of using attribution just to cast doubt on the use of a term. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:01, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

I think that all labels are potentially ideological and propagandist and that there can be unloaded ones is a bit of a circular argument. NPOV would be judged according to the number of uses in the RS followed by an argument that the RS are biased by commercial as well as ideological concerns. It isn't good enough but Wiki isn't moral philosophy.Keith-264 (talk) 00:10, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

This is a common issue in WWII Yugoslavia, where the Partisans labelled themselves as liberators, but the Chetniks disagreed. I think we follow the sources in each case, and use the consensus of the available material. I don't support any blanket ban on the use of "liberation". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:25, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Discussion of reliable sources for one of our Featured Articles

Your attention is drawn to: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Sources at Artur Phleps article Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:22, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Knight Cross recipients

FYI, I've created the above page to track redirects of the articles on non-notable KC recipients, per discussion here: Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people)#Redirect_proposal_for_Knight.27s_Cross_winners. Interested editors are invited to check up on the progress or participate. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:22, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

Quite a few articles needing assessment

I noticed that several projects including this one seem to have a lot of articles needing to be assessed. I found a lot under Category:Military history stubs that I did and I poked around a few other categories as well. I just wanted to drop a note here in case others wanted to help. I don't know what task forces or other things they might need but I can help drop them into the right buckets for others to refine better. Mr. Nosferatu (talk) 16:42, 19 November 2016 (UTC)