Talk:Republic of Ireland

Prevent abuse of this page to support usage of "Southern Ireland" for the state

In the Name section Replace As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South". with As well as "Ireland", "Éire" or "the Republic of Ireland", the state is also erroneously, or casually referred to as "the Republic", "Southern Ireland" or "the South".

by adding "erroneously, or casually"

This sentence is regularly used to provide false authority for referring to the state as "Southern Ireland" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.84.38 (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I think you'd need to provide evidence that what is there is being misread as providing authority for calling it Southern Ireland, or something saying that it is definitely wrong to do so. I know it is called that, and that is not its name, but I haven't seen anything actively saying it is wrong to do so, and it is important not to stick our own thoughts into Wikipedia, so that's why some citation would be useful before doing anything along those lines. Dmcq (talk) 21:41, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

It is sometimes referred-to as 'Southern Ireland' in order to distinguish it from Northern Ireland, which is a different country. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.8.216 (talk) 08:34, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

The current state should never be referred to as Southern Ireland, a state that no longer exists and even then existed for less then a year, but, if needs must, as "southern Ireland". ww2censor (talk) 09:47, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Use 'Republic of Ireland' if you need to distinguish it from Northern Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 11:37, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Or just Ireland. You’ll hear people talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland all the time these days. It’s in the Brexit press. No one gets confused. The ‘confusion’ idea is just politics. FrenchMalawi.

I have to say, having read through the article for other reasons just now, that I do think that this section needs work. I think we do need to distinguish the common names, Ireland, RoI and Eire, from "Southern Ireland" or "the South" which are mostly used in a very limited context. At least they should be in a separate sentence, as the sometimes-republican tags like "the 26 counties" already are.SeoR (talk) 13:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Is Irish Free State still a common name too? Eire is on your list there. Where do we end it! Leprechaun Land?

Article Name

The page should be moved to Ireland (country), because that is its official (constitutional) name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:8100:3974:4028:B84A:9907:9F7:AEBD (talk) 13:27, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

If yoiu read the FAQs at the top of the article an note "Many discussions have been had on this matter, and current consensus is to use Ireland to describe the island and Republic of Ireland to describe the state. By order of WP:ARBCOM, all future discussions of this article's title must take place at a special project set up to deal with this issue. (Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration) MilborneOne (talk) 14:19, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

It should be at "Ireland" or "Ireland (country)" (like Georgia's); the island article should be at "Geography of Ireland" or "Ireland (island)". But, for now we're stuck with this unfortunate arrangement. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 05:29, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

While you're at it you could try renaming the United Kingdom article to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or France to the French Republic. Dmcq (talk) 13:22, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

No, that comparison doesn’t work. We’re talking about shortening the name to 1 word. You’re talking about increasing a title name from two to eight. And to a name no one uses, whereas Ireland is the common name for Ireland. FrenchMalawi who doesn’t know how to use tildas on an iPad.

A successful attempt to effectively silence debate on this seems to have stifled progress on this. Since the debate kicked off the Myanmar article has moved on. We’re all hearing about the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland these days. It’s so ridiculous that the article title hasn’t moved on too. User:Illegitimate Barrister, is there any current concerted effort to get this back on the agenda? I don’t know how to use tildas on an iPad so I don’t know how to sign my posts these days. Apologies for that. It’s FrenchMalawi here.

No attempts to get it back on an agenda, as no one has presented anything new. Additionally please don't make edits that change Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state). Just because that's your preference doesn't mean it can be changed and it's against policy. It's considered disruptive. Canterbury Tail talk 15:01, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I think you are the editor who left a message for me on my personal User page today accusing me of disruptive editing or something like that and saying I could loose editing privileges. That seems a rather OTT, don’t you think? What on earth in the above was so dispruptive as to warrant such a threat? I don’t agree with you on the principle you mention though. One doesn’t need new things to discuss old matters. Imagine how far the world’s philosophers would have gotten if they were prohibited from discussing things that weren’t new! The Burma/Myanmar discussion was the same old discussion it always had been for many years until the article was renamed. It’s the same logic for the Ireland article.

Separately, if Canterbury, you could be kind enough to tell me how to use tildas to sign off on an iPad, that would be appreciated and you could tell me that here or on my talk page - I know my edits look a bit messy withou being properly signed with tildas. FrenchMalawi.

Pronunciation

There is a link to an audio file with "Eire" pronunciation. But it is wrong. Completely wrong! --62.18.205.106 (talk) 15:06, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I would not go as far as "completely wrong" - but it is a poor, mis-inflected, rendering, and I have removed the link. I am sure one of the many interested editors can record and upload a well-pronounced Éire. Thanks for the alert.SeoR (talk) 15:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the pronunciation was all that bad. It was better than a proposal from last December Talk:Republic_of_Ireland/Archive_20#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_1_December_2018 which I though was just not good enough. Dmcq (talk) 17:53, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

In fact I think the pronunciation was acceptable and so am replacing it. I'm sure there must be a tag around for requesting an improvement. Dmcq (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

There's pages for requesting pronunciations at Wikipedia:Requested recordings and Commons:Pronunciation files requests. Dmcq (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I have to disagree - I'm no expert, but I've been hearing and saying Eire all my life, and this is not a good version (while, as I conceded above, not completely wrong, I've heard worse), and with such an item, I'd say better none than badly done. But I leave it to others to consider, and I think the easiest source for a well-pronounced version is our Wikiproject Ireland community...SeoR (talk) 04:12, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

You could always ask someone you think says it well to let you record them so you could try putting it up on Commons. A smartphone can do that well enough I'd have thought. The ogg format is preferred, see Commons:Audio/en. Dmcq (talk) 19:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I speak the language, and to me it sounds like a Japanese interpretation of the word. That's how far off this is. Mike Galvin (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

The last person who was so dismissive had something like the start of "arrah you're a complete eejit". But if you can find someone who you think pronounces it well and can get a free sound sample to put into Wikipedia Commons as described above that would be great thanks. Dmcq (talk) 00:35, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Creation of the IPP

The IPP was formed by Isaac Butt rather than Charles Stewart Parnell, yet in this article the latter is credited with its creation in one of the sidebars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.141.217.81 (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Provinces?

Out of curiosity, why are the provinces not even mentioned? --Doradus (talk) 00:04, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, a little surprising. But attached as we are to our provinces, they have neither local importance - we address by street, village / suburb / town, and traditional county - nor legal function. Still, I will review to seek a suitable way to include a mention.SeoR (talk) 07:51, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

“It was officially declared a republic in 1949, following the Republic of Ireland Act 1948.”

Above appears in the article. Doubtless, it echoes tonnes of sources. All, unfortunately, incorrect. You can readily find sources that will confirm that no such thing happened. The Irish government didn’t declare the state a republic in 1949 at all. The Irish government regarded the state as already being a republic. Is there an appetite to correct a common misconception? User talk:Seor, what do you think? User: FrenchMalawi.

Source? Dmcq (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I think the point is that all the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 (which came into force in 1949) actually did was to sort of rename the independent state of Ireland and completely sever the ties with the British monarch. Per the constitution, the state is called just Éire, or in English, Ireland, and this couldn't be changed by a mere Act. Instead, it said that "the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland" (my emphasis).

In a sense, the Act itself is a source showing that FrenchMalawi is right. The Act doesn't explicitly declare Ireland a republic, which it had been for a considerable time anyway. It just gives it a 'description' from which it is clear that it is a republic.

On the other hand, it appears that at the time, the Act had been announced as declaring Ireland a republic, and in a way that is actually what it did. Repealing the External Relations Act implicitly made Ireland a pure republic, with no connection to a monarch. From the simultaneous declaration that Ireland can be described as "the Republic of Ireland" it followed that it must be a republic. In this sense it was a declaration of this consequence.

This is a bit like "I would like to invite you" can be interpreted as technically not being an invitation but just a statement of intent. Yet everyone normally interprets it as an invitation, and that's how it is intended, too. I think slightly more guarded language than "It was officially declared a republic" would be in order to account for this minor complication, but it seems inappropriate to me to draw much attention to this point. And saying it is a misconception doesn't seem accurate to me. If I am told "I would like to invite you", it's not a misconception that I have been invited, just a failure to engage in pedantic hair-splitting. Hans Adler 03:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

QUOTES from Dail debates on ROI Bill in 1948:-

Taoiseach John Costello: “We were not since 1936 a member of the Commonwealth of Nations. We are not leaving it [the Commonealth] because we left it a long time ago. In my view we left it in 1936.”

Leader of the Opposition Eamon de Valera: “We here today are not proclaiming a republic anew; we are not establishing a new state....there is no doubt whatever about it that our state is a republic.”

User talk: Hans Adler you say “it appears” the Act had been announced as declaring a republic. Well, it appears that’s not how the Government or Opposition billed it (see above). Though no doubt that’s how many regarded it. But it’s also besides the point. The legal effect of an Act is what matters. The Act, as you rightly points out, does not purport to declare Ireland a republic. It does no such thing.

You won’t need me to point out that there are many republics whose name doesn’t include the word republic. Why indeed, perhaps the greatest republic of them all, the USA being one. So adding a description to the statute book in addition to the name doesn’t change its constitutional status. I’m sure that’s well understood by you anyway.

User talk: Hans Adler you say Ireland had “already been [a republic] for a considerable time anywa”. Yes indeed. You are certainly correct as a matter of Irish law. The then Irish Government and Opposition would agree with you there. You are bang on correct.

Hans Adler, how you get from that conclusion to the total opposite one, that Ireland was “officially declared a republic” when it clearly wasn’t (you’ve acknowledged as much) does not make sense to me. Maybe that’s something you can develop on for us.

The laws of Ireland and the laws of the United Kingdom conflict as regards what happened in 1949. Irish law and the Irish position is quite clear, there was no creation or declaration of a republic as there already was one. The UK position is enshrined in the Ireland Act 1949 which purports that Ireland was part of His Majesty’s dominions until 1949; a matter not accepted in Irish law whose constitution was very clearly republican.

If we are going to describe what the whole thing is “a bit like” something, I’d say it’s more than a bit like ‘straightforward inaccuracy’. Something repeated so often that persons no longer question it. If the article is concerned with sharing knowledge and the like, it could describe what happened in 1949 and acknowledge that Irish and UK law conflict on the interpretation of what happened. It’s not hair splitting or pedantic. It’s a historically important legal point. FrenchMalawi.

In any case, I immediately found numerous Irish sources (such as this one) claiming that Ireland was declared a republic in 1949, and none doubting it. Without a strong source saying that's a misconception (which you still haven't offered), we can't say it is one. With such a source we would have to find some kind of balanced statement. What I meant to propose is finding some more accurate language, in line with the plain text of the primary source (the Act), that we can use instead of saying Ireland was declared a republic. That could be done without additional sources, provided there is a consensus. Hans Adler 11:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

It was not declared a republic before then and nobody at home or abroad said it was one before then and Britain dealt with its foreign policy. Afterwards it was clearly acknowledged as a republic both at home and abroad. What the leader of the opposition said when the act was being passed is really quite immaterial. I really can't see a good reason here for saying it became a republic at an earlier date. And being recognized as a republic is quite an important part of he business, nobody thinks the proclamation in 1916 made Ireland a republic for instance so why was 1922 or 1937 anything different? We should just go by the sources. Dmcq (talk) 12:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

The interpretation of laws must be informed (if possible) by the debates that led to them. I found the most relevant debates for the Republic of Ireland Act linked from this page, where the act is summarised using the kind of nuanced language I have in mind, as follows:

"The Republic of Ireland Act 1948 declared that Ireland could be described as the Republic of Ireland. The Act also ended the role of the British monarch in the Republic of Ireland, transferring the power to exercise the executive authority of the State in its external relations to the President of Ireland."

The debates can be found here. Here are some relevant parts of the Taoiseach's introductory speech:

"[...] This Bill will end [...] this country's [...] association with [...] the British Crown and will make it manifest beyond equivocation or subtlety that the national and international status of this country is that of an independent republic. [...] We will emerge from this House, when this Bill has passed, [...] with closer associations with Canada, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa and Great Britain, as an independent republic [...]. What I want merely to direct attention to is this, that the passing of [the External Relations Act 1936] has led to what I call a barren and futile controversy, even a disreputable conflict and unending arguments as to [...], whether we are a Republic, whether the President of Ireland created under the Constitution is the head of our State or whether the King designated in the [1936 Act] is recognised as our King here for any purpose. [...]"

So far, the speech supports the idea that the 1948 act declared Ireland a republic. However, it goes on:

"Under this Act of 1936 the test that I applied to myself when I was asking: 'Who is the head of this State? What can people say about us when we have here a President of Ireland in a republican Constitution and in a State which was declared by the Government at that time to be a republic?' was: 'What will foreign jurists say when they find that a foreign King, an outside organ, was the organ who was King in this Act of 1936 to enter into a Heads of State Treaty?' I want to mention that as one of these fundamental matters that cause confusion and difficulty in international affairs when foreign jurists saw that foreign representatives were accredited to this country through the medium of this organ of the King."

This says rather clearly that Ireland had already been declared a republic earlier, but that at least internationally its status as such was in doubt because for international relations – crucial for questions of sovereignty – the British monarch still had functions normally reserved for a head of state. He went on to explain that there was doubt as to who was the head of state of Ireland (the President or the King). He even quotes from a 1945 Dáil debate:

"Mr. Dillon: Are we a republic or are we not, for nobody seems to know?

The Taoiseach: We are, if that is all the Deputy wants to know.

Mr. Dillon: This is a republic. That is the greatest news I heard for a long time. Now we know where we are...."

The Taoiseach (predecessor of the one whose speech I am quoting) then explained the situation before the Republic of Ireland as follows:

"[..] The position, as I conceive it to be, is this: We are an independent Republic, associated as a matter of our external policy with the States of the British Commonwealth. To mark this association, we avail ourselves of the procedure of the External Relations Act just quoted, by which the King recognised by the States of the British Commonwealth therein named acts for us, under advice, in certain specified matters in the field of our external relations. [..]"

Another earlier Taoiseach quotation in the speech is as follows:

"[..] The Constitution is a republican Constitution. That we are a republican State here nobody can deny. We are a republic. [..]"

Later, the speech explains the motivation of the precise wording "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland":

"[...] There is the name of the State and there is the description of the State. The name of the State is Ireland and the description of the State is the Republic of Ireland. That is the description of its constitutional and international status. [...] It declares to the world that when this Bill is passed this State is unequivocally a republic. [...] We now have the unambiguous position that the President is head of the State and, if there are heads of State treaties to be entered into, if he goes abroad, he will go abroad as the head of this State, the head of the Republic of Ireland. [..]"

The following contributions by others, including the opposition, make clear that they also understood the Bill as declaring that Ireland was a republic. For instance:

• "[...] I do not think that after 26 years of an Irish Government we can be proud, or take any pride to-day in proclaiming a republic for only a portion of our country. [...] It is my personal belief, a belief which I think is also strongly held by very many of our citizens, that rather than declaring a republic now we should take a step or two in the other direction [...]"
• "[...] My only regret is that we are not in a position of declaring on behalf of this Assembly a State which could be described fully as a republic for the whole of Ireland with its jurisdiction effective throughout the entire of our 32 counties. It is for that day that many of us have worked. That has been the dream of generations. Perhaps we shall live to see the day when we shall be able to say that our State is a republic and that its jurisdiction is acknowledged over the whole of its national territory. [...] I went on [in 1933] to point out what the actual situation was in which we found ourselves and then I said: 'Let us remove these forms one by one so that this State that we control may be a republic in fact and that when the time comes the proclamation of the republic"— which I referred to as a republic for the whole of Ireland—"may involve no more than a formal confirmation of a status already attained.' [...] We here to-day are not proclaiming a republic anew; we are not establishing a new State. The Bill does not purport to be establishing a new State. We are simply giving a name to what exists—that is, a republican State. As I pointed out when that question was asked some years ago, there is no doubt whatever about it that our State is a republic and if I wanted to prove that it was, I would only have to point to the terms of this Bill, because there would be no use in giving a description of the State as a republic as this Bill does if it was not so in fact. You are not declaring a republic, but you are declaring that the State that exists is a republic." [my bold]
• "[...] We do not regard this, nor do we think that any Deputy in this House can regard this, as the declaration of the republic for the Twenty-Six Counties. [...] Relating this Bill to that Article of the Constitution, we endorse it as a redeclaration or a restoration of the republic proclaimed in arms in 1916 and ratified by the votes of the representatives of the people on 21st January, 1919. [...]"
• "[...] reinforce and reiterate throughout the world again in a very singular and effective way that the real fundamental claim of this country is to be a sovereign independent republic. [...]"
• "[...] Our opponents outside the country did, on occasion, hold the Republic of Ireland, as it stood under the External Relations Act, up to ridicule. We heard talk of the 'Royal Republic' and of the 'Republic with the King in the midst of it'. [...]"
• "[...] We had a King in the Statute Book and a republic in the Constitution. I remember that at the time of the introduction of that Act, they laughed at us in the British House of Commons—at the dupes who believed and the knaves who pretended to believe that one could have an Irish Republic with a British King. [...]"

Based on all this, I have come to the following conclusion for myself:

• Ireland had been declared a republic in 1916, and in 1919, but as of 1948 it was a different Ireland, so the declaration wasn't relevant any more.
• The state existing in 1948 was internally and effectively a republic, but with a special role for the British monarch that made its legal status unclear.
• The 1949 act did not declare Ireland a republic, but it declared that Ireland already was a republic, while removing the special role of the British monarch.
• The reason Ireland did not declare itself a republic was that in the minefield of Irish politics, this would have raised the question of whether Northern Ireland was a part of the republic. It was better not to get anywhere near this question at the time.

Based on this, I think it would be most appropriate to say something like this: "In 1949, it was declared that Ireland was a republic." (Without the emphasis, obviously.) Hans Adler 12:12, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

More precisely, based on the above I suggest replacing "It was officially declared a republic in 1949" by "It was officially declared that it was a republic in 1949". This strongly supports today's most common POV that the Act made Ireland a republic (which in a sense it did by completely discarding the king), but leaves a bit more space for the alternative POV that was actually the prevailing one of politicians at the time: that Ireland already was a republic before and this was only a clarification. Hans Adler 12:39, 14 July 2019 (UTC)