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Please add your suggestion for each proposed title. Feel free to propose other titles. '''Please remember this is not a substitute for discussion.''' You should still discuss your views in the discussion section above.
Please add your suggestion for each proposed title. Feel free to propose other titles. '''Please remember this is not a substitute for discussion.''' You should still discuss your views in the discussion section above.
:''NOTE:'' several entries in this table have been added not by the users themselves, but by others who interpreted comments in [[#Discussion (requested move 23 January 2021)|the discussion above]] as support or opposition for certain options in this table. — [[User:Chrisahn|Chrisahn]] ([[User talk:Chrisahn|talk]]) 19:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
:''NOTE:'' several entries in this table have been added not by the users themselves, but by others who interpreted comments in [[#Discussion (requested move 23 January 2021)|the discussion above]] as support or opposition for certain options in this table. — [[User:Chrisahn|Chrisahn]] ([[User talk:Chrisahn|talk]]) 19:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
::This table should me removed, because it implies that we have a [[WP:NOTDEM|vote]] instead of striving to reach a consensus. The problem I see are the names as listed, suggesting what I see a vote count. Consensus, to editors not used reaching it, instead of the brute force of the numbers, is one in which a lonely editor, but with the better argument, gets the many to agree, what ever their initial position was. Any editor should refrain writing lines like "Oppose per other_editor" or "Support per other_editor" which as such are votes. Voting is editing like Committee, i.e. no neutrality, which is bad for a Encyclopedia. --[[User:Robertiki|Robertiki]] ([[User talk:Robertiki|talk]]) 05:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)


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Revision as of 05:25, 25 January 2021

    The "coup" & "insurrection" discussion

    Seeing that there are now sources beginning to describe this as a "coup attempt", I wanted to make an organized section discussing the situation. It also seems that some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt, but the forceful entry into the capitol was a coup attempt. Below I will make a few sections to organize this discussion.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Can you explain what is meant by "some scholars are agreeing that the legislative act was not a coup attempt." Which legislative act? The joint session counting votes? RobP (talk) 08:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    In the heat of the moment, most newspapers will use emotive and hyperbolic language because their job is to attract readers' attention. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should describe the event as it is described by authors after the event, not in the middle of it. DenverCoder9 (talk) 21:56, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Coup", "Insurrection", and "Sedition" have specific legal implications. Beyond WP:BLPCRIME, confirmation needs to come from an official source. DenverCoder9 (talk) 23:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The description of events will not become more rational over time. Let's let hyperbole roam freely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.161.17.25 (talk) 11:38, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the hard work that went into organizing this and from everyone who added sources. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:09, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Sources describing as "coup attempt"

    All of the media listed below promote a liberal, left and progressive viewpoints. There is no evidence that protesters were a united organized group that was actually attempting to take over the US Government with, I've read, 13 weapons found? Instead it looks as if it was a mixed group who invaded the building to disrupt the electoral college contest and make some messes. The behavior of some of the DC police is also puzzling. I would avoid hyberole and wait for some official DoD reports. The mainstream media is advocacy based. Here we aim to present different sides in a neutral way regardless of personal viewpoints. If you can't manage that attitude, edit non-political articles only. Lmlmss44 (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "coup attempt" or similar (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

    Generally reliable sources

    Other sources

    -- Removed "coup de force" French-language sources, as the French "coup de force" does not correspond at all to English "coup (d'état)". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I was unaware that screaming, breaking windows, looting stores and then leaving fell under the definition of "coup". TheKing'sMongrelSon (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Sources describing as "insurrection"

    This is a list section only used for sources describing the event as a "insurrection" (May be expanded and please don't use opinion pieces):

    Generally reliable sources: categories and policies

    Generally reliable sources: headlines

    The Insurrection At The Capitol Is A TV Event That Will Live In History RobP (talk) 21:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Trump caused the assault on the Capitol. He must be removed. "Failing that, senior Republicans must restrain the president. The insurrection came just as many top Republicans, including Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (Ky.), were finally denouncing Mr. Trump’s antidemocratic campaign to overturn the election results." RobP (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Others

    Other terms used

    Autocoup

    Breach

    I'm seeing more & more stories on this event refer to it as a "breach". I personally don't think it is the best word to use, but feel with respect to the principle of NPOV this fact needs to be mentioned. -- llywrch (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I have not been seeing more and more such stories. A breach can be done by a single human and is roughly synonymous with trespass. The breaching of the Capitol is a moment in time. That's when the first door was broken down. By my estimation, that's 0.0003% of the totality of what happened. That's the sporadic type of usage of "breach" i'm seeing – in reference to particular moments and situations of that event, not in reference to the event itself. Alalch Emis (talk) 04:24, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Seconding Alalch Emis: Breach is appropriate for articles like List of White House security breaches; a four-hour occupation by armed persons is far more than just a "breach".-Ich (talk) 10:22, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Invasion

    • Capital Invasion [[5]]

    Its what it was, RS say it and it really is not all that loaded.Slatersteven (talk) 11:41, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Riot

    However sources like this say people are bieng charged as rioters [[6]].Slatersteven (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    “A”, if not “the” mainstream view is that ‘coup’ is apt. Instead the word has been entirely whitewashed from the first half of the article, where it is called a mere riot.
    C’mon, people. --50.201.195.170 (talk) 14:23, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    A riot would be if a normal protest went out of control; there is evidence showing that this was at least partially planned out and the intention was to kill or kidnap several members of Congress and maybe the vice president which makes it an insurrection SRD625 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This was not a riot. This was a violent uprising against the legislators in order to stop them from performing the Constitutional requirement to count the electoral votes. This is the very definition of an insurrection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.117.147 (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I strongly disagree with calling this a coup or insurrection. Media headlines often exaggerate things to attract the attention of the readers to the article.The words “coup” or “insurrection” are more likely to attract attention than simply stating the capitol was “stormed”. Based on the evidence, this was mob of people from a variety of groups. It doesn’t appear to have had an organized leadership, and had no intention of overthrowing the US government, simply to disrupt the vote count. The theft of labtops was probably by conspiracy theorists trying to confirm they were right. Many members of the mob seem to have just contented themselves with vandalism, with several pieces of artwork representing historical figures from both the left and the right targeted. This indicates the goal was general destruction rather than targeting paintings and statues of people associated with one side of the political spectrum. In any case, we cannot simply speculate or exaggerate details like the media. We need reliable, unbiased sources, which will presumably become available as time goes on and the investigation reveals its findings. Investigation is still underway, and it could be awhile before we get any concrete answers. I say we leave the title of the article as is for now. Anasaitis (talk) 19:58, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Attack

    @Somedifferentstuff: your proposal is worded using "domestic attack". This generally refers to domestic violence. It's an unfortunate coincidence. I don't think anyone but you has or would support including "domestic" for this reason, and for the reason of that exact phrase not being supported by reliable sources, and for not being concise either. What do you think about this assessment? — Alalch Emis 18:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Alalch Emis, in this context, domestic means that is was done by people within the country (def. existing or occurring inside a particular country; not foreign or international), as opposed to being done by people from outside like 9/11. Take a look at the first sentence of this article (Oklahoma City bombing) as an example. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Somedifferentstuff, That's "domestic terrorist truck bombing" not "domestic attack". "Domestic attack" is nowhere to be found in that article. Your usage of that term in this context is novel and unusual. IMO it was a bad idea to condense it with the default option as it differs significantly with the addition of "domestic". You can still remove it, because it's not supported by anyone else. People who support attack support the default version. — Alalch Emis 20:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    In the sections above, "coup" is more widely used internationally. On the other hand, it seems that "insurrection" is more prominent in English sources and in use among US politicians. "Storm" does not appear to be more popular than the other two, though it appears frequently in German media.--WMrapids (talk) 09:36, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Very few not-in-the-moment sources use coup without attempted, because the word coup does imply a success. The word storm doesn't have that implication, a storm is a still a storm whether it's successful or not. Same with a protest, an attack, a demonstration, etc. I think that we should avoid using coup simply because we can't use it without putting a qualifier there, which instantly strays into commentary territory. --Paul ❬talk❭ 10:00, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Support Holding on Changes I appreciate the work that went in to making this list, however, caution should be exercised. Business Insider is currently the subject of an intense discussion at WP:RSN and I question the quality of Uproxx for reporting civil-military relations; many of these are op-eds and editorials that are using the word "coup" as a term of art; and several of these are non-English language sources where the nuance of the word coup does not precisely reflect in English translation. Factually, if it were determined to be a putsch of some type, it would be an autogolpe and not a coup. A coup is an attack against the existing executive power, while an autogolpe is an attack against the existing legislative power. As time progresses, this nuance will be learned and internalized by reporters on beats that normally don't deal with this subject and we may see an evolution in nomenclature. We must chronicle the terms used by RS, however, that does not preclude us from proceeding with deliberation and caution, particularly insofar as current events are concerned. Chetsford (talk) 10:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: Not a survey, but thanks for the info as I agree that we should wait and created this discussion so we can pick apart the sources while we wait. The op-eds included are written by the editorial boards of the said sources, showing that the term they use is what the publication decides best describes the event. "Putsch" is not used often in English and especially not in this circumstance, though it is often synonymous with "coup" when used. Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue. An autogolpe or self-coup is a type of coup, so it would still be accurate to describe it as a "coup attempt" without being too specific on what type of coup it may be (which seems like many publications have done by simply calling the event a "coup attempt"). Also, we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt", such as the 1851 French coup d'état, the 1973 Uruguayan coup d'état and the 1970 Lesotho coup d'état. So if the event were to be determined to be a self-coup attempt, then it would be acceptable to name this the 2021 United States coup d'état attempt in accordance with predecessor articles. That is, unless, sources give us a special name for the event.--WMrapids (talk) 10:31, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Your statement that "[a] coup is an attack against the existing executive power" is simply untrue." I regret to inform you that's an objectively false statement. As the French term is invoked in English, a coup d'etat is understood to be an attack against the executive power in all literature on the subject while the Spanish term autogolpe is invoked to mean an attack against the legislative authority by the executive. I can't find my copy of Luttwack's Coup d'Etat at the moment, but I'm pretty certain he clarifies it that way (and it is the definitive source on the subject), but there's a breadth of other scholarship on this as well in the academic literature (e.g. [7] or Paul Brooker's Non Democratic Regimes [page 83 in my edition]). "we describe various self-coups on Wikipedia as simply a "coup" or "coup attempt"" Please see WP:WINARS. In any case, this is all neither here nor there since it sounds like we both agree we should wait to implement any changes. Chetsford (talk) 10:50, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I did some searches just then, most of the articles I just read referred to it as a "riot" or the "protestors storming the capitol building". I'm not seeing a lot of obvious references to coups, and my personal feeling is, a coup would involve some level of sophisticated organistion, this is just the working of a mob. Just my 2c! Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:13, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: The simple definition of a coup is "the removal of an existing government from power" (Wikipedia), "a sudden and great change in the government carried out violently or illegally by the ruling power" (Oxford) or "the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" (Merriam-Webster), all meaning that it is the removal or change of a government, which generally can constitute multiple branches, not only the executive. However, it seems that you are more interested in the intricate definition of a coup according to various scholarly opinions which, as you can see in some articles above, are divided. Your opinion is respected, but we do not use WP:OR. Reliable sources seem to be using the simple definition approach. As for WP:WINARS, that is obvious. The articles were listed as examples for if this event is determined to be a coup attempt by reliable sources, not as a source to determine the article title.--WMrapids (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    While I appreciate you looking up the word "coup" in the dictionary, we generally frown on WP:OR. Chetsford (talk) 18:58, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chetsford: I feel like this article by the Brookings Institution makes good points and pretty much gives an explanation of what I said above.--WMrapids (talk) 11:32, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The are some outlets starting to refer to the insurrection as the "Beer Belly Putsch", though it's clearly never going to be the most common name for the event. — Red XIV (talk) 15:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Kingsif: That's helpful. It seems like many reliable sources are describing this a "coup attempt", though it's still early so we are working on determining Wikipedia:Verify. Due to the importance of this article, we can be sure WP:OR should not be a problem as well. WP:NPOV seems to be alright too as numerous reliable sources have verified that Biden had won the election and that such acts of reversing the election are unlawful, so describing this as a "coup attempt" would be neutral. It seems like we are just working on the verifiability regarding how to describe the event at this point (insurrection, coup attempt, etc.)--WMrapids (talk) 12:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • If looking at more sources, The Guardian has now collected all its coverage under the tag "US Capitol stormed" on its website. But then they have a headline calling it an insurrection, and an opinion piece saying to call it a coup. Kingsif (talk) 13:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is in my mind too early to use these types of words. The most accurate statement is protest turned riot. Unless someone can prove that the people involved had an organized plan to overthrow Congress, which is very doubtful, than the other labels don't apply. Also a lot of the sources using these terms are opinion pieces, they can be useful in describing what people 'think' of what happened, but not what it actually was. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:22, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's untrue that the labels "insurrection" or "coup" don't apply if there was not an organized plan to overthrow Congress. This is an arbitrary standard. I don't see what would support such a stance. The RS are converging on "insurrection" as many have noticed. Although there are some RS using "coup", as you have observed, some of the sources listed here are opinion pieces. This is not the case with "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Putting aside my own personal opinion about this event, I wonder why do we need to count noses & apply just a single label. Why not write something like the following: "While this has been described as a coup [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here], others have described it as an insurrection [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here], or a riot [add citations to 2-3 examples of usage here]." IMHO, that would adhere to NPOV: we are reporting what others say, not our own opinions. (And we can save our discussion energy for which sources to use as examples.) -- llywrch (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would consider a coup to be an attempt by a group of high ranking government officials to suddenly seize the reigns of power, generally by posing a threat to the life or freedom of the existing leader. The storming was not by government officials and did not appear to have their support to take control of the government. It also seems that most of the people who broke in were not there in some sort of an attempt to take control of the government. As such the 'coup' label is unhelpful to readers. I am more supportive of insurrection, especially given its use by NPR and AP. Generally speaking, this seems most similar to Euro-Midan. ~ El D. (talk to me) 21:09, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    An insurrection is violent action that is taken by a large group of people against the rulers of their country, usually in order to remove them from office.... an act or instance of rising in revolt, rebellion, or resistance against civil authority or an established government.

    Also, Biden used that term.

    A coup is a quick and decisive seizure of governmental power by a strong military or political group.... a sudden violent or illegal seizure of government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 09:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    What these guys did was really stupid. I would put that in the article if I could. For now there is only speculation about insurecction or conspiracyt. I'm joining others in voting wait and see. Spudlace (talk) 11:46, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There is tremendous clarity regarding what happened due to the incredible amount of journalistic activity and coverage, and the public nature of the events. The pseudo-revolution was televised and it amounted to an insurrection. This is what the RS are expressing at this point. This is not to say that what took place isn't a storming, but the storming is the 'how' to the 'what' - the insurrection... which does not have to be smart. This standard amuses me. This event will not be remembered as stupid but as painful and frightening to people all around the world. Alalch Emis (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I really apologize if I'm in the wrong section, I'm really rarely contributing to Wikipedia as a whole, I just wanted to point out some thoughts on the naming convention for this article:

    1. The "See Also" list gives other examples of "storming the legislature building". However, none of those articles are titled using the same naming convention. For example, the Armenian and Serbian articles are listed as "Protests" and not "Storming of X", even though the situation is almost exactly the same.
    2. Different naming conventions are often thrown around as political rhetoric, so a media site calling something a coup does not (by itself) make it a coup, any more than political rhetoric from conservative news sites are taken in the opposite direction
    3. Strictly speaking, a coup implies a military insurrection of some kind, but all the people in this situation are civilians, not military

    So the naming convention of the article I would support, one way or the other, would be simply something that is consistent with other articles that already exist LutherVinci (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • not a coup There are some mainstream sources and dedicated articles that the event was not a coup. A problem with "a coup or not a coup, that is the question" is because of strong feelings of journalists, some have been very forceful to call it a coup. With polarization, nobody wants to compromise. To me, it was a riot but there was no concerted efforts common in a coup. That could change with a FBI investigation. How exactly was the man with the fur hat and horns going to be King of the US? And the man with his feet on Speaker Pelosi's desk; did he have secret plans to be the new Speaker of the House? The problem with the above list is that many of the articles have become politicized so that they are no longer reliable sources. That is sad to see. Vowvo (talk) 00:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Federal law enforcement assistance of Trump

    European officials are now saying that Trump received assistance with establishing supporters within the Capitol. Security officials from Europe stated they train with US federal forces and that "it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored". This is interesting as one argument regarding the definition of "coup" is that it requires assistance from armed branches of the government.--WMrapids (talk) 05:40, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Insurrection?

    While the previous move was closed with the recommendation to wait about a week, we are now about three days after the event. After reviewing more recent sources, it seems that the term "insurrection" has been determined to be the most common term. CNN is even hosting a special titled "The Trump Insurrection". Any opinions on this?--WMrapids (talk) 12:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    What is an insurrection? "Rebellion and insurrection refer specifically to acts of violence against the state or its officers." [8] How is the occupation of the capitol "violence against the state or its officers"? Certainly, it is the primary inflammatory term associated with the event. But is it accurate? Jrb1tx (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    It is very accurate.... many news used the word, "insurrection". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:250:4570:2DEE:EC99:D4AD:2C0F (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, insurrection is the term most used by reliable sources. Only Fox news calls it a "storming" in attempts to romanticise the event and build support for a Trump pardon for the participants. Gouncbeatduke (talk) 13:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    My understanding is that the decision was to wait for a week to see what the event is to be referred as. Many reliable sources started using the word "insurrection" at the Capitol more consistency now. I assume at some point, the article will be moved to 2021 insurrection at the United States Capitol, right? Here are just a few examples:

    Media
    • NPR created a news category called "Insurrection At The Capitol"[9]
    • PBS Classroom resource: Three ways to teach the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol[10]
    • Tampa Bay Times "insurrection at the Capitol"[11]
    • Fortune "the insurrection at the Capitol"[12]
    • National Geographic "the Capital insurrection"[13]
    • The Guardian's First Thing "insurrection at the Capitol"[14]
    • Aljazeera "US Capitol insurrection"[15]
    Politicians from both parties
    • Statement of President George W. Bush on "Insurrection at the Capitol"[16]
    • Mitt Romney on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (NYTimes)[17]
    • Joe Biden on an "insurrection" as reported on a reliable source (Sydney Morning Herald)[18]
    Discussion and event names
    • Hammer Museum "Insurrection at the Capitol: What’s Next?"[19]
    • University of Denver "Insurrection at the Capitol"[20]

    An important reliable source is from the the Congress. The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection which had 4 elements in it:[21][22]

    • Beaching and vandalizing of the Capitol
    • Injuring and killed law enforcement personnel
    • Menacing the Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel
    • Engaging in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts

    I think the word breaching is similar to the current word "storming" that is used as the title. That is just one element of the overall event in which it is known in the article as an insurrection. By leaving the title to just one element of the event, it may not capture the overall picture of what it is as many reliable sources now describe the overall event than just as the "storming" part of it. Z22 (talk) 19:51, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The second Trump impeachment WAS for him "inciting an insurrection" and it is now in the history books. So how is this not the most appropriate description for what happened at the Capitol now? RobP (talk) 07:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    That was a coup d'état

    I am looking at this new article in CNN, Investigators looking into planning of Capitol riot. Indeed, it is highly probable that the planning and participation involved well prepared groups of rioters in all gear (they even brought restraints to capture the members of Congress, just as they wanted to capture the Michigan governor), some police (who did not stop the mob and allowed everyone to leave when the rioters realized that lawmakers are gone), possibly some Pentagon officials (who did not sent the guard even after the request by DC mayor), and possibly even Republican lawmakers and the president. There is a lot of chat about it, including even some analysis by Michael Moore and separately by Yuri Shvets who is definitely an expert (here (Russian)). The purpose of the coup was to prevent the inauguration of new president. My very best wishes (talk) 15:25, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes. A coup d'état attempt (so far).
    The Capitol siege was planned online. Trump supporters are now planning the next one
    "Given the very clear and explicit warning signs – with Trump supporters expressing prior intent to “storm and occupy Congress” and use “handcuffs and zip ties,” clear plans being laid out on public forums, and the recent precedent of the plot to storm the Michigan Capitol building while Congress was in session – it is truly mind-boggling that the police were not better-prepared,” said Rita Katz, executive director of SITE Intelligence Group, which was among the research groups that detailed what was coming in the weeks before the Capitol was attacked. It recapped much of this evidence in a report published Saturday." ... "ARMED MARCH ON CAPITOL HILL & ALL STATE CAPITOLS” for Jan. 17, the last Sunday of Trump’s polarizing presidency."
    Ruth Ben-Ghiat, professor of history and Italian studies at New York University, wrote the book Strongmen: How They Rise, Why They Succeed, How They Fall: “Historian of coups and right-wing authoritarians here. If there are not severe consequences for every lawmaker & Trump govt official who backed this, every member of the Capitol Police who collaborated with them, this 'strategy of disruption' will escalate in 2021.”
    This Is a Coup. Why Were Experts So Reluctant to See It Coming?
    Fascinatingly, fascist-natingly, the Defense Department is referring to the pro-Trump riot as “the January 6, 2021 1st Amendment Protests.” https://media.defense.gov/2021/Jan/08/2002562063/-1/-1/1/PLANNING-AND-EXECUTION-TIMELINE-FOR-THE-NATIONAL-GUARDS-INVOLVEMENT-IN-THE-JANUARY-6-2021-FIRST-AMENDMENT-PROTESTS-IN-WASHINGTON-DC.pdf ← This memo tells you all you need to know.--217.234.68.109 (talk) 22:01, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! In particular, this interview] with Ruth Ben-Ghiat is very helpful. This might be a bifurcation point in US history. My very best wishes (talk) 02:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You are welcomen ;-) Ben-Ghiat: "I’m very worried that this... “armed march” being planned for January 17th around the nation. And once you legitimize and give a presidential imprimatur to extremism, and once you convince — you plant people throughout federal agencies, you know, you radicalize law enforcement, as Bill Barr, who stepped away but has a huge amount of responsibility for this, it’s very hard to turn this back." Remenber, No public appearances with remarks from the AG or FBI director. Capitol Police haven’t held a single briefing. DHS secretary just stepped down. All since a mob just stormed the Capitol. --217.234.74.185 (talk) 17:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And what they are going to do next? "They were talking about 4,000 armed 'patriots' to surround the Capitol" [23]. Who knows? In 1999 Putin and his comrades arranged a series of terrorist acts to grab the power (that page was fixed for "neutrality" by one of Russian-speaking accounts [24]). My very best wishes (talk) 17:44, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Speaking more about coups, the leader must have a support by organizations like the army, the secret police or political Parties in order to succeed. Neither seem to be the case here, except only supremacist organizations and some Republicans. However, this is hard to say with certainty at the moment. My very best wishes (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


    Not a coup. When this was taking place, lots of names were used. Now, I don't see coup used a lot or at all. These leads me to believe that WP:RS reliable sources dictate we not use coup. The same thing with assassination. Now there's a news report that someone wrote on social media about assassinating AOC. Terrible. However, that does NOT mean this article should be retitled "2021 Assassination attempt on AOC in the Capitol". Vowvo (talk) 23:08, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    French-speaking sources cited

    I am a native French speaker, and it seems that some French newspapers in the list above don't actually qualify this event as a coup, but as a « coup de force », which Wiktionary defines as “A suddent, violent act.” The word “coup” in English would be translated as « coup d’état » instead. The affected sources are Le monde diplomatique (both), BFM TV, Orange, Euronews, Ouest-France, and La Voix du Nord (which uses « coup d’état » in citations only). Also, I couldn’t verify the citation for the France Info article, “Pro-Trump coup” is just « États-Unis » in the title of the article on my computer. In fact, the article says that « Didier Combeau estime qu’il s’agit plus “d’une manifestation d’extrémistes peu nombreux” qu’une tentative [sic] coup d’État » (“Didier Combeau believes that it is more “a menifestation of few extremists’ than a coup attempt.”) Nicolapps (talk) 19:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I have verified that "coup de force" indeed does not correspond to "coup d'etat". Therefore I have removed the following sources from the list:
    -- Alalch Emis (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! Nicolapps (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    NOTFORUM and Civility violation

    Please remember that news outlets use sensational words to describe an event in order to get the attention of the viewers. Those that were protesting wanted their voice to be heard. Just a portion of the people that attended the demonstration were violent. Most of if not all of the priceless works of art were untouched. There were many videos of people in the capital just mulling around like they were on a guided tour. Almost in awe of their surroundings. The love of their country and their freedoms brought them to the capital. Many did not heed the words of the president when he asked his supporters to be peaceful. If it was a coup, who was the one calling for it? If it was an insurrection where is the evidence. The news outlets use those terms, but they do not provide any proof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MissBehaving (talk • contribs) 01:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    You sweet, summer child. What sort of dull-eyed thugs are needed to overthrow the nation and keep power? The current president will use any support he can find, and did so, and as it became ugly, he reveled in what he had unleashed. In the Rwanda genocide, leaders announced over radio it was time to "cut down the tall trees". They don't say 'Ok, let's quite precisely knock on the door and demand control of the democracy.' I do think "Hang Mike Pence" is no construction of sensational words by a click-seeking media. This is technically a "reverse coup" I guess. I'm glad they only wanted to murder the vice president, rather than destroy priceless art. I don't believe they love this particular country, which is a democracy. And crushing the skull of a policeman isn't embracing freedoms. This is a coup attempt in plain sight, with all the ingredients. Mcfnord (talk) 21:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As I wrote earlier, a coup implies some actions by regular military or organization by ruling elites. If the action is done purely by normal civilians, no matter what their intentions are, no matter how organized they are, would still be an insurrection and not a coup, and as I pointed out there are other Wikipedia articles of similar events in Armenia and Serbia which aren't even called insurrections, but called protests. Media outlets may use sensationalist terminology to grab people's attention, or purposefully imply that the action was a coup, even if that is more flowery language. That being said, if there was any media outlet that proves the action was done by military or specifically orchestrated by Trump as an attempt to disband congress, then yes it would be a coup. So far, all we have proved is that Trump incited or inspired the action, and some police were delayed a few hours before intervening, and that's pretty much it right now. In fact, if the people are calling for hanging Mike Pence, who is absolutely in Trump's camp, that kind of invalidates the claim of it being an elite-orchestrated event, and therefore invalidating it being called a coup. QED. LutherVinci (talk) 05:04, 13 January 2021 (UTC) (forgot to log in earlier)[reply]
    @LutherVinci: Having the military being involved is a common misconception; it just requires a violent attempt to overthrow a government. The New Yorker actually hypothesized a similar example in October 2020, stating "For example, Trump could summon federal agents or his supporters to stop a recount or intimidate voters. According to some experts, this would constitute an autogolpe, or 'self-coup'". This is almost what happened on January 6. However, it seems that the event has been consistently described as an "insurrection" by reliable sources, so we should use that description and then make comments about the term "coup" in the body.--WMrapids (talk) 09:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    @WMrapids as your source says, mobilizing federal agents would be a coup, and I would agree, because again that would be actions by elite authorities (even if not technically military). As you pointed out, that is "almost" what happened on January 6, but ultimately federal agents were deployed to recapture the Capital and arrest the rioters, and therefore no elites were involved in the insurrection. LutherVinci (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Insurrection is what the United States government has declared took place.

    Time to change the headline

    https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-impeachment-news-01-12-21/h_ff48d5c57b86031716423f4c0b8b9940

    --Caffoti (talk) 23:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    cnn is explaining the difference between sedition a coup d'etat and an insurrection. ://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html

    Riot or Insurrection/Coup Attempt

    One more important distinction, no one has been arrested and/or charged with the crime of treason, insurrection, or for a coup d'etat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.146.167.165 (talk) 17:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The unsigned comment above is simply not true. Famously, the president of the United States has been charged with the crime of "insurrection of the United States" when he was impeached by the US House of Representatives. Univremonster (talk) 02:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The "2021"

    Should we keep the "2021" in the upcoming title "Insurrection at the United States Capitol" (i.e. it would be titled "2021 insurrection at the United States Capitol")?

    BobTheBob45 (talk) 17:32, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    See below. The proposed title under discussion is Insurrection at the United States Capitol. --RL0919 (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree with the proposals to rename the page as the "2021 insurrection of the United States Capitol. Most media outlets have now switched the term "insurrection" over "storming" and Congress has officially adopted the term in their articles of impeachment ("incitement of insurrection"). It would therefore make sense for Wikipedia to fall in line with this more accurate consistency. Golfpecks256 (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Court findings from greatly acceptable sources

    [25] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.146.86.241 (talk) 14:22, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    RFC: Should this event be characterized as terrorism?

    Should this event be characterized as terrorism? 00:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


    Transcluded discussion from other talk page

    Support

    • Yes, per "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." "terrorism. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000". web.archive.org. 20 June 2006. — Maile (talk) 01:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes: clearly described as such by reliable sources and by influential people across the political spectrum. Sceptre (talk) 01:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes similarly in The Oxford English Dictionary - 2a "The unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". This event is literally the definition of terrorism. Nfitz (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, by the definition of terrorism by the FBI: "Domestic terrorism is the unlawful use, or threatened use, of force or violence by a group or individual based and operating entirely within the United States or Puerto Rico without foreign direction committed against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof in furtherance of political or social objectives." https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005 Dobekofcas (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes per my comments at Talk:Domestic terrorism in the United States. We aren't smarter than numerous reliable sources, the President-elect, and a multitude of other leaders. This isn't complicated. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Soft Yes IF sufficient RSes in support of calling it terrorism can be established, AND consensus is established that there is enough RS publication for it to be in Wikipedia's voice. If the first but not the second happens, then support maintaining current section: "The riots and storming of the Capitol were described as insurrection, sedition, and domestic terrorism." Builder018 (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, applicable to all articles that mention this event., per Bongwarrior's reasoning. Jdphenix (talk) 01:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC) [reply]
    • (edit conflict) Comment Let’s see... they attempted to “overthrow” the results of the election with violent insurrection. They attacked law enforcement with lead pipes in the process of breaking and entering the government’s legislative building. There was a stand-off inside the building with guns drawn. A woman in this so-called mob was shot and killed trying to climb through a window. They ransacked offices and defiantly sat in officials’ seats with their fists raised. If it were in any other country what would you consider calling this? So yes, because that was their intention even if the dramatic irony befalls them. Trillfendi (talk) 01:29, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well ... MSNBC in its self-ad, refers to coverage of "domestic terrorism" as part of their purpose. — Maile (talk) 02:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Then certainly the riots of the 60's and those of last summer were "terrorism" as well, no? The George Floyd Protests article makes clear their purpose was to extract political concessions. Elle Kpyros (talk) 21:01, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, as per what is directly above. Thanoscar21talkcontributions 23:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes WP:RS call it terrorism. WP: What happened at the Capitol ‘was domestic terrorism,’ lawmakers and experts say As such, we should follow. Casprings (talk) 23:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes per various WP:RS provided above by many users. IHateAccounts (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes. I believe this fits the definition of Domestic terrorism. At least some of them went there and had the attack planned before Trump gave his speech. There were reports of reconnaissance tours. There is a video of a woman giving coordinating instructions to people inside the building. There is a photo of an invader climbing over seats holding handcuff-zipties implying he intended to take hostages and came prepared to do so.--Most Humble and Obedient Servant (talk) 04:31, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, FBI, Homeland Security, former Department of Defense and military, as well as federal government officials are all referring to it as a terrorist incident. Domestic terrorists used "average" people at the rally as a cover to do what they want to do, just like the 9/11 hijackers pretended to be airplane passengers. The next president has called it domestic terrorism. Etc. Not to mention the numerous citations of RS referring to it as such. →Σσς. (Sigma) 03:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, the USG is widely referring to it as a terrorist incident. When the media talk about whether it was a terrorist incident, many find it it was. And they are cautious about referring to any incident as such. At first I thought No - not in WPVOICE but yes if attributed. But as I looked through the comments, I found the No vote comments to be misses: Whataboutism, fiction, even gibberish, but mostly non sequiturs. While the Yes comments- well, not a wall of granite, but at least solid and coherent. --50.201.195.170 (talk) 02:36, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes - clearly meets the definition of terrorism - violence in order to achieve a political end. A violent mob wanted to stop the counting of electoral votes, and successfully (if temporarily) did so. That's what the sources say, and that's what we should say. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes This is definitely terrorism. Rioters stormed into the Capitol, many wanting to kill lawmakers, to stop a "stolen" election. Merriam-Webster defines terrorism as violence or threats of violence used as a weapon of coercion or intimidation. The rioters wanted to coerce and intimidate lawmakers with violence and threats of violence (numerous threats were made, not to mention the pipe bombs). 🌳QuercusOak🍂 12:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ "28 CFR § 0.85".
    2. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [1] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
    3. ^ Tucker, Eric. "Attack highlights challenge of pursuing domestic extremists". The Associated Press. Retrieved 12 January 2021.

    Oppose

    The difference between a group of people infiltrating a government building thinking they can threaten politicians into not voting (symbolicly as it were) for something and a group of people protesting against *checks notes* human rights violations while being tear gassed, is that the latter group of people weren’t threatening the action of democracy. Trillfendi (talk) 01:36, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not have a problem with that either. Many of the BLM/Antifa riots were far more violent than the Capitol Hill Storming and tactics used certainly checked the boxes for terrorism. Similarly, there were certainly participants of the storming who had terroristic intentions at very least. I would be supportive of both this, and the BLM/Antifa riots being categorized as terrorism. History Man1812 (talk) 20:16, 10 January 2021 (UTC)History_Man1812[reply]
    Again, NPOV must be maintained and your views of motivation behind two different rioting mobs do not decide whether it constitutes terrorism.ExplosiveResults (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Terrorism is a method, the idealistic motivators of an action are irrelevant to whether it's "terrorism" or not.PailSimon (talk) 01:41, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is incorrect. The definition(s) of terrorism include the political purpose. Breaking into a house in order to steal something is not terrorism, but breaking into a house in order to intimidate someone to vote a specific way is. Sjö (talk) 09:56, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Black Lives Matter were people protesting unarmed African Americans getting killed by police; the Capitol Insurrection was primarily white supremacists upset they lost an election and tried to change the result by force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.117.147 (talk) 04:07, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the people identified at the Capitol were already on FBI watchlists, there is no such things as BLM riots, BLM doesn't organize riots, they conduct protests, which isn't terrorism, and have permits from the city to do so. White supremacists at the Capitol had weapons and handcuffs, used flag poles, fire extinguishers, and stun guns to attack police and others, used mob force to crush and rip of the badges and weapons of law enforcement, prevent them from leaving, caused Congress members and staff to go into hiding in fear for their lives, wore anti-semitic clothing and carried white nationalist symbols, and went on a search to find the Vice President of the United States and Speaker of the House of Representatives. They also planted bombs nearby. One sounds like terrorism to me, the other sounds like protesting as allowed under the Constitution. Oh, and all rioting isn't terrorism. It involves more. Teammm talk
    email     01:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure what you mean by BLM riots, ExplosiveResults - which doesn't seem notable - do you have a reference?. There have been protests on many things (like sports games) that have descended into rioting after extended period. That doesn't make it terrorism. This storming appeared to have been the plan of the "protesters" ... and happened almost immediately. As far as I know the vast majority of BLM protests were entirely peaceful, and the worst offence was blocking traffic, or noise violations - certainly around here. Nfitz (talk) 01:38, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BLM and/or Antifa protests have done more than "blocking traffic". They have burned down police stations, repeated attacks on the federal courthouse in Portland, set up "autonomous zones" in several cities, and don't even get me started on the five police officers killed in Dallas in 2016 during a BLM protest.96.241.129.33 (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BLM protests were scheduled ahead of time, coordinated with local law enforcement and the media. The fact that looters and other opportunistic types showed up to create chaos was not the goal of BLM. — Maile (talk) 01:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    So let me get this straight: Breaking past capitol security, causing minor property damage to the building, and walking around inside for a little while in response to an allegedly stolen election is terrorism, but killing civilians and burning down cities because a few criminals got killed isn't? How absurd. Display name 99 (talk) 03:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course! That's why they were there. They just wanted to have a little walk around the place. Very fine people, I'm sure. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:00, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Terrorists are usually armed though. Pipe bombs found outside the building notwithstanding, I don't think any of the rioters were armed. Otherwise, just refer to RS, not POV. Including mine. RandomGnome (talk) 04:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Some of the rioters absolutely were armed. You are correct, though, that we should go with RS. GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Checking the article, I found mention of an 'armed standoff' and 'chemical sprays'. You are correct that some of the rioters were armed, but these appear to be more isolated events within a highly disorganized and opportunist riot by a disparate group that managed to gain access to the building, rather than a concerted, armed terrorist siege. But as you say, we defer to RS. I would urge editors to find sufficient high quality RS before RfCing for 'terrorism'. Thanks. RandomGnome (talk) 04:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I noticed several extensive discussions on this talk page and others related to terrorism, with edit warring. I've seen reasonable RS arguments for both. I opened this to get discussion in (hopefully) one spot. Jdphenix (talk) 05:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Display name 99: Holy strawman Batman! "minor property damage" and "walking around inside"? That's a funny way of describing violently breaking into a federal building and planting not one but two IEDs in an attempt to overthrow an election. Bravetheif (talk) 05:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No As said above, most if not all reliable sources call this a riot, at most it is referred to as an insurrection, which is a dubious claim in it of itself JazzClam (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No This is a malformed RfC, and probably going to end up as a snowball again, as declaring it to be ex post facto terrorism by interpreting it as "Yes, per "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." would clearly be wp:OR. Let's chill on the RfCs for a while. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 01:26, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Wow consensus on “facts”...could this be anymore intellectually dishonest...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.161.229.135 (talk • contribs)

    I don't see how, User:PailSimon, that identification of event is a biased issue, with Republicans and (former) Trump supporters calling this terrorism. How is this article from a local newspaper (Washington Post) not a reliable source? It even identifies some of the white nationalist terror groups involved. Nfitz (talk) 06:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The last part of this argument is demonstrably false. Lin Wood; "The time has come Patriots. This is our time. Time to take back our country. Time to fight for our freedom" [BusinessInsider]. His Parler post; "Get the firing squads ready. Pence goes FIRST." [Washington Post]. The bombs. Violent intent isn't debatable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdphenix (talk • contribs) 04:13, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No Most reliable sources are not characterizing it as a terrorist attack, even if they report declarations of this or that politician that calls it domestic terrorism, they usually do it clear in-text attribution. If you have followed media coverage of actual terrorist attacks, you probably know the difference between most reliable sources calling something terrorism, as opposed to some politicians calling names. --MarioGom (talk) 09:06, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    ......why the hell not? You either don't know what those words mean, or you're hoping that people who read your comment won't. Firejuggler86 (talk) 08:37, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I do see the reason now after all the news. In some aspects, seeing how terror tactics were used, despite the event not being a terrorist attack, terrorism was involved. But this aspect is not the most prominent one, as the desired political end was primarily not indirect, through terror (which is the defining element of terrorism), but direct and immediate, through intimidation of members of Congress etc. — Alalch Emis 22:42, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No. I went through all sources cited in this discussion, and none call it terrorism in their own voice, so as best I can tell it fails verification. Moreoever, "terrorism" is a contentious label that requires wide use by reliable sources. If anyone can establish such wide use, then please ping me and I will reevaluate my position. R2 (bleep) 07:50, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No/Wait Most reliable sources of international reputation — including progressive ones such as the New York Times or The Washington Post — are not classifying it as terrorism. Some people in the "Yes" section argue that the have reliable sources, but either don't provide them or provide sources that are not that straightforward on this subject. Others argue that this falls into their preferred definition of terrorism, but that looks like original research to me.--JBchrch (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No. 1) It's a lazy catch-all that conflates very different types of acts. 2) Reliable sources are not using it. 3) There will be a better description (though which term has not yet been resolved. It might end up being called a failed coup, maybe an insurrection.) Jd2718 (talk) 15:17, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Obviously no. Even the question of this RFC is ridiculous, terrorism is milestones to the power of infinity far cry away of this event. I heavily agree as well what is coined on the top of this thread about NPOV and double measure, on the other hand quite sad political soapboxing became so widespread in WP, seeing the number of votes to support, incredible! Not knowing/understanding what terrorism really is raises a huge concerns. Btw. I am not watching or editing this page, just by coincidence I saw this RFC, so without any ping will ignore any further here, I hope sane thoughts will trial here, not political interests/propaganda/agenda.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:22, 11 January 2021 (UTC))[reply]
    • No. FOR NOW. Demonstrations which lead to occupations of public buildings aren't usually defined as terrorism in reliable sources. But we have to follow if the historical consensus uses that term down the line.Boynamedsue (talk) 13:50, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No, they were a protest that evolved into unlawful actions of serious caliber, but that's it. Even if a couple of protestors may turn out to have had terrorist intentions in my opinion it should not represent the whole event.Forich (talk) 21:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No That is ridiculous. Terrorism is conducted by a terrorist organisation, it's usually a violent act to cause fear in a populous - ie it causes "terror". This was simply a mob attacking a building, and at the heart of it, there is no "terrorist" act that causes "terror" (ie a bombing, or the taking of hostages, or someone being killed). I don't think the public are particularly afraid of these protestors, in the terror sense. The motivation of the crowd wasn't to cause terror in the public for a political cause, - essentially the protestors were pissed off at the government and wanted to vent their frustration. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No A no opinion does not mean support for the riot. Vowvo (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is an incorrect assertion, because an act of terrorism does not necessitate "a LOT more people" being killed; for instance, in 1985'a incident involving TWA Flight 847 there was 1 fatality. In fact, an act of terrorism can occur without any casualties, like in Japan Airlines Flight 351. In the Capitol, there was an officer of the law killed, and The Guardian reported that "Two pipe bombs had been found at Republican and Democratic party offices near Congress"[1] Tortillovsky (talk) 17:25, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The legal definition of terrorism varies from country to country - in some countries a certain level of seriousness/damage is required. In most Anglo-Saxon countries 'intent' rather than outcome is the defining factor. IRA actions in London often did no actual harm but caused massive economic disruption simply by threatening acts such as planting multiole small incendiary devices on the transport system, thengiving an ambiguous warning. But yes, there is not generally a minimum 'body count'. Pincrete (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - not in WPVOICE although attributed claims in the form "politicians/sources X+Y" described it as domestic terrorism would be apt. Terrorism has a precise legal definition in each country and it is exremely unlikely that anyone is going to be charged with any directly 'terrorist' offences. Riot, trespass, assault, damage or theft, threatening behaviour, possibly insurrection and possibly manslaughter iro a few individuals are all that are being spoken of as possible charges at the moment. You can't have terrorism without a terrorist, just as you cannot have murder without a murderer, and despite many of the perps being filmed, directly 'terrorist' - and probably even directly 'political' charges, such as insurrection, for the mob itself - are extremely unlikely AFAI can see. Pincrete (talk) 10:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - Just because it fits the definition of terrorism does not mean it should be classified as such. By definition all riots that ever happened would have been classified as terrorism. While it may feel good to label this as a terrorist act, using a technicality is not the way to do it. Orangewarning (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Not all RS calls it terrorism. Others call it coup. Others call it insurrection. Others call it storming. Others call it riots. Others call it rape. Others call it concert. Others call is anarchy. Others call it apocalypse. Others call it judgement. Others call it doomsday. Others call it massacre. Others call it flood. Others call it noisy. Others call it bad. Others call it stupid. Others call it violent. Others call it discredited. Others call it hate. Others call it hatred. Others call it killings. Others call it event. Others call it earthquake. Others call it tsunami. Others call it impeachment. Others call it pedophilia. Others call it breach. Others call it vandalism. Others call it edit war. Others call it war. Others call it World War 3. Others call is Donald Biden. Others call it looting. Others call it protests. Others call it BLM2. Others call it Just Some American Stuff. Others call it The Simpsons. Others call it Capitol Disaster. Others call it evening. Others call it day. Others call it January. Others call it 2021. Others call it something. We can't fit everything to one. Thus, they can be redirects and Wikipedia can give itself its own name (the current). GeraldWL 15:21, 15 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - As per above. I would honestly support a renaming to 2021 United States Capitol Incident, even, but that's somewhat irrelevant. I feel like storming is about as neutral as we can get without people from either side protesting the decision.SkynetPR (talk) 15:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Σ LOL. Great response. Made me laugh. That said, I must admit I was somewhat surprised to discover that September 11 attacks did not have the word "terrorism" in it, despite the coverage seeming to almost universally call it that. Before I saw that title, I might have been inclined to support "terrorist" in the title to this article--if that word was associated with the event as much as it is with 9/11--which it certainly isn't yet. I'm still waiting to see a stronger list of RS that calls it "terrorism" before I would join your yes vote. It still looks more like a coup attempt or insurrection to me than attempting to scare or intimidate civilians. I see it as trying to intimidate lawmakers and police, but it's up to the RS. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - I'm pretty vehemently against the actions of the rioters and what they stand for, but that said, calling this "terrorism" would seem to raise a lot of WP:NPOV issues. It also doesn't seem to be reflective of the verbiage that a majority of reliable sources are using. Most definitions generally call terrorism violence directed at civilians, which doesn't entirely fit in this instance. We can certainly make qualified statements that use "terrorism" (e.g. "Several news outlets referred to the incident as terrorism"), but we shouldn't use "terrorism" in narrative voice. Remember that "terrorism" is a word to watch. We should only apply it if we're confident. NickCT (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No – we didn't call the BLM protests terrorism; therefore, it's a violation of NPOV to call this incident terrorism. Firstly, terrorism is a strong word that carries many legal connotations, and not everyone there will likely be charged with terrorism. So it may not be the most accurate and neutral thing to mention (even if it's true). Also, not all references are calling it terrorism. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:59, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No — hard to believe this is even a question. If this was "terrorism" then so is virtually every riot, including those of last summer. Enough with the trying to call what was clearly a riot a "storming", "insurrection", "coup attempt", etc.—it's just embarrassingly POV and 100% inaccurate. These "debates" are pure partisan political hackery and a disgrace to Wikipedia. Elle Kpyros (talk) 20:55, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • No - no evidence that this was a terrorist's plot. We should use WP:RS reliable sources. There's no frequent mention of "the terror attack on the Capitol". True, some may cite terror in the same line as if you don't have Medicaid assistance, it's terrifying if you're sick, but that's not the mainstream definition of terrorism. That is not to say that the riots were good. They were not. Vowvo (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Other

    • Wait. If individual rioters receive charges of terrorism, terrorism-related charges, or charges of sedition - we should refer to this act as "terrorism". Until then, I propose that we simply wait. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 01:54, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. I would prefer to wait until there has been news of individuals or organizations being referred doing "terrorist" behavior. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 02:01, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, per Mt.FijiBoiz. This seems reasonable and objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdphenix (talk • contribs) 02:04, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait I would wait until such individuals are charged with terrorism-related charges, once they are I will be in support. JayJayWhat did I do? 02:12, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait While the definition of terrorism has been expanded significantly in recent decades, it's looking like a very few of those involved were prepared for terroristic acts. When this is clarified we can have a suitable section. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 07:32, 8 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
    • Wait Personally these seem to be acts of terrorism to me, but I agree with the above that we should wait for charges or expert opinions. Ziko (talk) 09:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, per above. Wikipedia isn't a publisher of original thought, and as this isn't classified as terrorism (yet?), we should wait until it is classified as such. JackFromReedsburg (talk | contribs) 14:50, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. Per WP:LABEL, value-laden labels should be treated cautiously even if used by reliable sources. Sources will begin to describe the event more neutrally as it leaves the realm of news and enters the realm of history.Jancarcu (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait. Wait a bit and see what RS converge on, and we get a clearer picture of motivations, who the leaders were, who planted the bombs, how they organized, et cetera. Terrorism isn't really well-defined, so I'm opposed to an appeal to definitions. DrIdiot (talk) 21:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait if there are charges of "terrorism" for people involved I'll consider it, but I don't see the support for that label as-of-yet. power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:15, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait Too soon, but if a majority of reliable sources begin using the term, so can Wikipedia. Usage in RS will probably be influenced by what kind of charges will be brought (i.e. terrorism-related or not). Sjö (talk) 09:59, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait until a consensus is reached within our sources. -- ToE 11:17, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait per everyone else. Some people were there to protest, some were clearly rioting, some were clearly there to commit assassinations and acts of terror... It's a very complicated, multifaceted event, and we should just wait to see what a majority of experts and officials say, all across the board. Love of Corey (talk) 00:54, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait per most above. 777burger talk contribs 06:30, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait for reliable sources to converge on descriptors, per Sjö. GABgab 18:37, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait until, as mentioned above, news on if those arrested have been charged with terrorism-related crimes. EmmerdaleFan1972 (talk) 02:11, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hold on - While organizations such a QAnon and Proud Boys might be characterized as terrorist due to their plottings of assassinations and such, Wikipedia shouldn't characterize the attack that way in Wikipedia's voice. The article can include examples of reliable sources, properly attributed, that characterize the attacks that way. The only class of topics I know of where it's permissible (even required) to use a value-laden WP:LABEL in Wikipedia's narrative voice is WP:FRINGE topics, and this isn't one of them. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait, someone made a good point. - OK, so before I continue with my justification, let it be clear that none of the following sentences shall show either political support or political opposition to either of the events mentioned herein. If we are going to classify the event at the Capitol as terrorism, then (as some users above mentioned) there have been other events last year, most notably BLM/Antifa riots, that must also be classified as terrorism. My reasoning: Categorizing something as terrorism requires 1) political motivation to cause a desired change 2) targeting of noncombatant persons (usually civilian) 3) intention to (preferably quickly) instill fear into noncombatant targets 4) at least one person present, virtually or physically, to do something destructive through the use of violence or intimidation. So, the event at the Capitol hits the first (obviously). The targeting is hard to pin because it was not specific, but the third one is a hit, as is the fourth one. At best it hits 4/4, at worst, 3/4. But note, however, that this "checklist" applies only to the people who are actually committing to #4. I can't add this to the article without sourcing because WP:OR but it was clear from footage that most people were not interested in violence, only a portion of them. Because other people were present in large numbers that fit #1 but not #4, the validity of classifying this as terrorism is debatable. Compare this to the various riots in 2020 by BLM/Antifa. They hit #1, obviously. They targeted stores and other buildings, so #2 is a hit. And all of the riots involved their burning, so #4 is also a hit. #3 is debatable, but because at least one person of clear political opposition who were in their way was beaten (to death iirc), I tend to lean toward the affirmative. So at best, this gets 4/4, at worst 3/4. And unlike the event at the Capitol, this one does apply to almost every single person involved. So, my stance: if we classify this act as terrorism, the BLM/Antifa riots must also be classified as terrorism, but (to avoid affirming the consequent) if the BLM/Antifa riots are classified as terrorism, the event at the Capitol need not necessarily be classified as terrorism. Inversely, if we do not classify this act as terrorism, the BLM/Antifa riots may still be classified as terrorism, but (again, a.t.c.) if the BLM/Antifa riots are not classified as terrorism, then this act must also not be classified as terrorism. LegendoftheGoldenAges85, Team  M  (talk | worse talk) 22:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait until the Biden administration makes a statement either way. That some of the insurrectionists have been charged with domestic terrorism is not sufficient to make the entire insurrection a singular act of terrorism. Forklift17 (talk) 23:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait if anything. In a "reactions" section or similar, it may be appropriate to say "some sources have referred to [the acts/list specific parts of the events here] as [domestic] terrorism". But until reliable sources overwhelmingly refer to the act as a whole as terrorism, it is inappropriate to call it such in WP voice. We are still within a charged time in the political environment - and until the dust settles, it is inappropriate to even be considering this. There is absolutely no rush to call it terrorism, even if it eventually can be determined to be the correct thing to do here. That being said, the trajectory of news coverage of these events has been decreasingly calling it terrorism/insurrection/related words in recent days - possibly to try to avoid polarizing the situation further and any "repeat" or "copycats" based on the use of that language. We will see what coverage over the next few months/year(s) calls it - but until then, it's not appropriate to call it that in WP voice. I'll note that even some participants being charged with/convicted of offenses called terrorism does not mean the event as a whole can be called a terrorist attack. It would be appropriate in such a case to discuss the charges/convictions that resulted, but the event as a whole is not determined by a few charges/convictions. TLDR: potentially the word has a place qualified by specific sources/individuals/charges/etc - but not as a whole yet, if ever. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wait We must wait for more evidence to come out that it was a coordinated and planned attack between "most" of the people who stormed the capitol building. Current evidence (already cited in discussed article) shows maybe a few hundred people stormed the capitol while the protest had tens of thousands of people attend. We do not know if the majority that did storm were coordinated and planned or if some of them were just opportunistic. If the evidence does come out that the above is true and every intention was to stop democracy from continuing and a planned and organized attack took place then I am all in favor of calling it what it would be, a domestic terrorism attack. For now the process and trials have not concluded and I am very skeptical to call it Domestic Terrorism as we can label many events over the past decades and even as recent as 2020 as Domestic Terrorism. The article already has holes and biases I'm sure will be edited once more information is received. The best part of the discussion is seeing everyone who voted Yes get no feedback or flack for their opinion yet almost everyone who voted no has a comment from another user challenging their opinion. It's honestly sad.

    Discussion

    • Some articles, categories and lists that are relevant to this RfC: Domestic terrorism in the United States, List of terrorist incidents in 2021, Category:Terrorist incidents in 2021, Category:Terrorist incidents in the United States. --MarioGom (talk) 16:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm on the fence between "yes" and "wait". Per WP:NOR, the question is not whether we think the events fall under a dictionary definition of "terrorism", but whether reliable, secondary sources think so. On the other hand, I do see there are already some secondary sources trickling in (e.g. this WaPo article mentioned by My very best wishes above), so if the answer here is "wait", I don't think we'll have to wait long. Mz7 (talk) 01:53, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      We could always add a sentence right now citing the WaPo article and giving in-text attribution, e.g. "The event was described as domestic terrorism by various lawmakers and national security experts." I don't think the WaPo article alone is enough to support calling the event terrorism in, say, the first sentence of the article. Mz7 (talk) 02:16, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Mz7, that sounds good. Most reliable sources are not calling it a terrorist attack, but they are definitely covering declarations by lawmakers describing it as such. MarioGom (talk) 08:00, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I saw someone added the following sentence to the lead, which 3Kingdoms just removed:

      This violence against innocent people to further a political ideology is consistent with the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism.[2][3]

      We cannot use the FBI primary sources to support this sentence because of WP:SYNTH: the sources themselves do not directly come to the conclusion that these specific riots fall under its definition of domestic terrorism. On the other hand, the WaPo article that I linked earlier does come to this conclusion directly ("National security experts agreed with that assessment, comparing the aggressive takeover of the federal landmark to the FBI’s definition of domestic terrorism"). I would probably support adding a tweaked version of the sentence to the lead, citing the WaPo article instead of the FBI primary sources. Mz7 (talk) 06:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Mz7, indeed, it seems a sizeable amount of !voters here are relying on WP:OR and WP:SYNTH based on FBI and dictionary definitions. MarioGom (talk) 13:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Just because it seems that it is terrorism does not mean it is. We need sources. All the "Yes's" are all opinion. Whenever we have made big decisions, such as on the Taiwan article and referring to it as a country, (That was a good day Wikipedia!) sources have been used. The primary reason the "Taiwan as a country" campaign won was because nearly all reliable sources refer to it as a country. This is no different. We cannot refer to them as terrorists because we don't like them, I don't like them either, that was a dark day, but that's no excuse to lose our moral high ground. JazzClam (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Please note that JazzClam is subject to a topic ban on post-1932 American politics, and their above comments are only present due to a clerical error. See Special:Permalink/999792924 § JazzClam for details. — Newslinger talk 03:42, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    if the article on terrorism has enough info to answer this question, then let it answer it. If it doesn't, improve or remove it-thanks

    No, this was not domestic terrorism. This was a case of heightened emotions that lead to a riot. The pipe bombs that were left around the Capitol did not detonate and there is no proof that a pro-Trump supporter placed the pipe bomb around the premise. The individual that placed the pipebombs could Possibly be classified as a terrorist, but those that stormed the Capitol should not be placed in that category unless there is a premeditated plan to break into the Capitol building. The media outlets like to use words that draw in their viewers. Also, if we go by what President-Elect Biden calls it, then we should follow the same guidelines with BLM or Antifa because Trump has called those entities terrorists. MissBehaving (talk) 02:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • Occasionally repressive regimes attempt to stretch the definition of "terrorism" to include political protest of lesser or greater degrees of violence, we could perhaps include the Bolivian coup government of 2019-2020 in this, or the government of Belarus. However, terrorism is generally viewed as a military operation conducted by covert non-state actors whose goal is not to control territory or further some tactical or strategic aim within the context of traditional warfare, but to make a political point. I don't see any military aspect in this action, not were the participants behaving covertly. The violent demonstration in Washington was possibly, in the minds of some of its participants, an attempted coup, but even then, a failed coup attempt is not usually classed as terrorism. However, if by some miracle the balance of reliable sources in future (things like encyclopaedias and history books) refer to it as "terrorism" then I suppose it's ok. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:02, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I see a large number--if not most editors--have answered giving their personal opinion and analysis about whether this is or is not "terrorism." Isn't that WP:OR? How about we follow our most basic rules of Wikipedia and call it terrorism if and only if the WP:RS calls it that? --David Tornheim (talk) 04:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @David TornheimI think the problem here is that we have an event so prominent that we can find RS that call it a massive variety of things including "terrorism", "insurrection" and a "coup attempt". However, on balance the majority of RS won't take that position. This is why people feel free to wade in. I think we should just exclude terrorism for now, as it pretty clearly isn't from any neutral standpoint (and if it is, I've done terrorism on several occasions), and wait to see if a historical consensus calling it "terrorism" emerges in academic sources rather than news media. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Borger, Julian; The Guardian: "Insurrection Day: when white supremacist terror came to the US Capitol" 2021 January 9 [2] Retrieved 2021 January 11.
    2. ^ "Terrorism". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.
    3. ^ "Terrorism 2002/2005". Federal Bureau of Investigation. Retrieved 2021-01-10.

    Requested move 16 January 2021

    The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The result of the move request was: not moved. I haven't counted the !votes (it's not really something I do when closing requests), but my general sense is that, irrespective of such a count, not even a WP:ROUGHCONSENSUS exists for or against this request, which defaults to it being declined. It seems like disputants are fairly evenly-matched here, in strength of arguments as well as in numbers (again, guestimating with the latter). There are exceptionally strong views expressed here (which is expected), some more substantive than others, but ultimately, the burden for taking action (moving) has not been met. Several participants suggetsed "Riots" as an alternative title and spirited debate was also engaged about whether it makes sense to have the date (2021) as part of the title. I'll set at a moratorium of one month (WP:ACDS action, will log) for trying "Insurrection" again, barring any significant legal outcomes, whichever comes first. Other move requests (like "Riots," etc.) may be launched immediately. I'm not confident that this closing summary is detailed enough for such an important request, so if any participant wishes for me to expand on something, I will certainly consider doing so as an addendum attached below. Thanks. El_C 16:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    2021 storming of the United States Capitol → Insurrection at the United States Capitol – Introduction: This is the big RM that people have been waiting for, for the past week or so. Saturday evening seems like a good time to start this. This is an important article and needs to have the best name it can have. Enough days have passed, while not too many, and this is the ideal time to have a very calm and substantive discussion. The name will always be slightly contested. This is not a reason not to proceed – WP:RMCM.

    The formatting must be correct now. Please only advocate in the form of "Support" or "Oppose" without suggesting alternatives. If you think a very close variant of the above such as "United States Capitol insurrection" is better, type "Support". A bold editor, or a subsequent technical move process will take care of this detail. Please remember that United States Capitol can't be shortened to Capitol or US Capitol.

    Policy statement: WP:NCE, there is an established common name for this event, based on "where" (United States Capitol) and "what" (Insurrection). The differences in the exact phrasing of the common name variants are neutral and unimportant. The article title does not need the "when" (the year), because the event is so immediately identifiable. The event is immediately identifiable because it is unprecedented[1] and important[2]. WP:PRECISE, insurrection is the most specific/precise descriptor. Competent people such as academics[3] and reputable journalists[4] describe the event as an insurrection. Using "insurrection" to describe this event meets the definition of insurrection. This usage is not controversial or contradicted by an authority. WP:NDESC, insurrection is a neutral descriptior. Major political figures on both sides of the spectrum have described the event as an insurrection. WP:CONCISE, insurection is a concise descriptor.[5]

    Another relatively prominent term used to describe the event is "coup attempt" / "failed coup". This use is less prominent than insurrection. WP:COUP, coup is a strong word. Using "coup" to describe this event doesn't meet the definition of coup. When it's being called an attempt it's very unclear but for which aspect of failure of the coup, the coup would have succeeded, in order for the event to ultimately meet the definition of a coup in the first place – only then to be seen as an attempt. There is no such logical problem with insurrection, of which there can not be an attempt, because the consequence is not included in the definition. Insurrection is an insurrection regardless of success. A quashed insurrection is not "attempted insurrection" but merely an insurrection. This is very opportune for the purposes of robust article naming. Coup is not used in the article body in wikivoice. Insurrectionist (implying nothing other than insurrection) is. Apart from insurrection and coup there is no other term even approaching commonness. "Riot"[6], "breach", "siege", "attack", "assault", "invasion" are inadequate for not meeting the above standards either partially or at all.

    The same goes for "storming". It should be noted that "storming" and "insurrection" are not mutually exclusive. The storming was one the methods. Among other actions (such as attempted bombing), it was the 'how' to the 'what'. The name needs to reflect the 'what'.

    WP:UCRN – Sufficient evidence of the proposed name being the common name is already included in this page – I urge you to look it over. I won't even link it as I think it's unnecessary.

    Process statement: The current name is a result of an expeditious proposal to change the name primarily to something other than "2021 United States Capitol protests". "Protests" was adequate for a brief moment, but as things took a violent turn, a discussion took place to urgently replace that with something sensible. At that time, the real motivation, as well as the standard used, for the move was mere propriety and common sense. There was consensus about "protests" in the negative, but consensus in the positive – over the common name was certainly not achieved, not to any serious degree, as no such thing could have even existed then (the very same day, and the following one). A great number of pro-move participants advocated for "insurrection", and there were many other proposals with significant support as well. Therefore, scores of users typed "Support" while simultaneously suggesting an alternative. What transpired was an unusual, miserably formatted, and essentially irregular, but still quite justified, move process. This is how things go in unprecedented situations. 

    As a matter of circumstance, the term proposed was "storming", but "storming" was not particularly favored over other terms in reliable sources. When some media put "storm" (verb) in their headlines, that was not indicative of "storming" as a chosen descriptor. The notion of the event as a whole and the primary action driving it (the verb "to storm") are not the same thing and should not be confused. Now it's evident that "storming" has not become the common name. 

    All of this can be gleaned from what the deciding administrator said in his closing message: This is a stopgap measure, and is not meant to be a permanent solution. Once the issue calms down, I encourage folks to tackle this again. Please wait at least a week until further renaming, so that the media can agree on a WP:COMMONNAME. I also suggest that if an RM is going to have multiple options to use things like "Option A" or "Option 1", so that it is easier to close :)

    Regardless of this, the current name isn't terrible. This is not about how "storming" is bad, but how "insurrection" is better; and not only better - that it's sufficiently better to warrant a move; and not only that - that it's exactly the best name, because it's the common name. This discussion is not how what happened was not a storming. Yes, arguably, it was also a storming. It was several things. This article is most certainly dealing with the whole phenomenon, evidenced in the inclusion of the pipe bombs and events in other cities. Still, this discussion is also not about how "storming" might have certain problematic connotations. This discussion has nothing to do with criminal adjudication for some crime of "insurrection" as that's not an element to the notion of insurrection, which is a fact of physical and social reality, that criminal law is only a minor facet of; criminal law does not answer "what is real[7]" but "is X criminally liable for Y"[8]. An insurrection can happen in a tribal community or in a territory without a criminal justice system. This discussion has nothing to do with the current impeachment proceedings whatsoever; it's not about Donald Trump's role and incitement, as there can be an insurrection without incitement. This discussion is not about guns, and insurrectionists being armed or "well-armed", as this is not required for there to be an insurrection under most definitions, and since some or many indeed were armed, the remaining definitions are met too. 

    Either way, this discussion has only a little bit to do with definitions (only in the context of preciseness), but it has everything to do with the common name, as previously discussed.

    Conclusion: Be bold. Don't glorify the status quo as a result of a previous wonderful Wikipedia consensus-reaching process. The process was fine for what it was, but it wasn't excellent or conclusive by any means. Now we can have a truly excellent process. This is the only way to stop the torrent of RMs. Not "moratoriums" on discussions. This is the decisive action that this article needs to become the best it can be for a long time to come. Alalch Emis (talk) 17:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ This has so far been the only insurrection at the Capitol (search for "Capitol" and look for "insurrection")
    2. ^ Whiskey Insurrection was a small-to-medium sized insurrection in American history, with a smaller number of participants and direct casualties, a somewhat important event, but less important than this attack on the core functioning of lawful governmental order, but it's a unique and recognizable event, so the year isn't included in the name of the article. The article is rated GA. This is an extremely strong precedent for year exclusion.
    3. ^ American Political Science Association: "Statement on the Insurrection at the US Capitol" 2021 January 7 [3] Retrieved 2021 January 21.
    4. ^ National Press Club (United States): "Getting it right: Breaking news, the Inauguration, and the Capitol insurrection" 2021 January [4] Retrieved 2021 January 21.
    5. ^ The proposed title has fewer characters (41 v. 42) than the current title and fewer syllables than "Twenty twenty one storming of the United States Capitol" (13 v. 16).
    6. ^ Magarian, Greg. WashU Expert: Mob at U.S. Capitol building amounts to insurrection 2021 January 7. “When a group violently attacks other people or attacks a public place ... It’s a violent riot, an attack. When a group violently attacks a government institution in an effort to change the lawful governmental order, that’s insurrection. It’s terrorism.” Retrieved 2021 January 21.
    7. ^ The relevant criminal statute doesn't even define insurrection
    8. ^ O.J. Simpson was not convicted of murder, yet we still refer to what happened as murder because we know it's real.
    Addenda
    1. "Riot" can not always be inferred from "rioter" as the term chosen by an organization: Washpo pairs "insurrection" with "rioter", not "insurrectionist" — Alalch Emis 04:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion

    We are discussing this at some length above, it does no one any favours to have it discussed in three or four separate threads. Can we please combine it all into one?Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This is a formal move request resulting from existing discussions reaching a natural endpoint and essentially converging on "insurrection". Alalch Emis (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    comment was posted for the purpose of formatting; struck own nominator comment per WP:RMCOMMENT — Alalch Emis (talk) 11:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Neutral. There isn't anything I can add to Alalch Emis's excellent treatment of the rationale to rename. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Update: Changing to neutral. I still think that "insurrection" is a better term than "storming", based on the rationale in the proposal that restricts a vote to a choice between those two terms, and I would be happy if the article was renamed accordingly, knowing that a further rename may be needed. However, given the discussion below, particularly about news search hits in the last 24 hours, "riots" may be a better choice. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:39, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I'm still drinking my morning coffee here on the West Coast, so haven't read this all yet... but wouldn't United States Capitol insurrection be more WP:CONCISE than Insurrection at the United States Capitol? – Muboshgu (talk) 17:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Muboshgu: This is already addressed in the second paragraph of the proposal above. A minor variation of the same title is considered the same title for the purpose of this vote, and can always be changed later. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Anachronist, ah yes it is. Need to finish my coffee and put on my reading glasses... – Muboshgu (talk) 17:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Alalch Emis. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:58, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per the discussion up the page that so far has preferenced including the year 2021. I am not necessarily opposed to the storming/insurrection change, but I think the year inclusion is a major point of debate. I would also say "United States Capitol insurrection" is the more concise phrasing. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      To my ears "United States Capitol insurrection" sounds like "O.K. Corral Gunfight" instead of "Gunfight at the O.K. Corral", i.e. somehow unnatural. Less encyclopedic. I think that this difference is completely neutral and technical, so it isn't informative on commonness. That's why I didn't ask people to use Option A and Option B, as the quoted administrator suggested. If the RM was dealing with multiple descriptors, then I would have done so. About the year idk, that part is discussed mostly in terms of a previous storming, but if the descriptor is insurrecton – then i don't think there's a relevant existing discussion. This is the first insurrection at that location. Alalch Emis (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      While this might be the first true violent insurrection, I feel the term is often used metaphorically, similarly to "rebellion" or "revolt", to indicate any sort of disobedience to authority. Maybe including the year would be more clear to ground the time period of the event, although it's not the sort of hill I'd necessarily die on - nonetheless, in one of the previous discussions where people wanted to establish phrasing for the RM, the one including the year was getting the most support votes. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I appreciate (or at least try my best to) the ongoing discussions and the past ones. I'm just of the mind that the year discussions with respect to the descriptor "storming" are not relevant for a title with the descriptor insurrection. Nonetheless I get your different perspective on this and how insurrection could be used metaphorically. Personally, I think "rebellion" and "revolt" are indeed often used metaphorically, but perhaps insurrection not so much. People have even been saying how they aren't even terribly familiar with this word; now it's a part of everyone's everyday vocabulary, almost. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alalch Emis (talk • contribs) 18:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      The discussion above I am referencing was specifically about the phrasing of the "insurrection" title, rather than the storming one. Inclusion of the year still got the most support, although it wasn't the biggest discussion. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      "Any sort of disobedience to authority" is not equivalent to insurrection. Misuse of the term by others shouldn't lead us to avoid the correct title here. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm not sure metaphor is akin to misuse, but I get your point. But if we are accepting that some people might misunderstand the term, doesn't that actually benefit the argument that including the year might provide clarity? This is an old building that has seen much history. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      What other "insurrections" at the US Capitol are you thinking it needs to be distinguished from? Inkwzitv (talk) 19:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I'm thinking about this more and I also think part of why I prefer the year is that "United States Capitol insurrection", on its own, sounds more like an overview of insurrection that has happened at the Capitol throughout its lifetime, rather than a specific event. Including the year makes it clear that this is a singular, event, as well as the rationale of clarity, as mentioned above. BlackholeWA (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Alalch Emis. Leaving the year out is a good idea; don't want to suggest it'll be happening again, and it hasn't happened before. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Arguably, the building was in fact stormed during the Burning of Washington in 1814. It was certainly looted and burned by enemy troops. -- Beland (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Oh wait, but that wasn't an insurrection, which is what this is supporting. Nevermind! -- Beland (talk) 01:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly oppose. The claim "there is an established common name for this event" is absolutely wrong. A search for "capitol" news on Google currently brings up headlines with the terms "capitol rioters", "capitol riots", "capitol mob", "capitol attack", "capitol violence", "capitol siege". The word "insurrection" first appears in this result, which is currently the 20th (last on second page). A search for "capitol" news on Bing shows even more clearly that "Capitol riot" is the most common term, with "Capitol attack" in second place. Yes, we can argue about the title, but the discussion must be based on facts. Not on claims that are obviously false. — Chrisahn (talk) 18:38, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      (edit conflict) You didn't see the section at the top of this page, did you? —Locke Cole • t • c 18:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Of course I saw that discussion. The main argument for "insurrection" brought forth in that discussion seems to be a list of sources using that term. Unfortunately, no-one made a similar list for "riot". Currently the terms "capitol riot" and "capitol riots" are much more common in reliable sources than "capitol insurrection". Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake that we'd have to fix with yet another move request. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn: The discussion here is about whether "insurrection" is better than "storming". If you are arguing google news results, then use a valid comparison: there are 47.9 million results for "capitol insurrection" and 18.3 million results for "capitol storming". On the basis of Google news results, wouldn't you agree that "insurrection" is an improvement? ~Anachronist (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      No, "insurrection" would not be an improvement. If we choose that title, we'll have to start a new renaming discussion right away, because it obviously isn't the most common term and does not conform to WP:NCE. That would be a waste of time. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Anachronist: Where did you get those numbers? Google says there are ~7 million results for "capitol insurrection", but 63 million results for "capitol riot". — Chrisahn (talk) 19:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Adding "&tbm=nws" in the search term finds these results:
      148 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+riot&tbm=nws
      48 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+insurrection&tbm=nws
      18 million results for https://www.google.com/search?q=capitol+storming&tbm=nws
      Inkwzitv (talk) 19:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks, Inkwzitv. These numbers prove my point: "insurrection" clearly isn't the most common term and does not conform to WP:NCE. Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake and a waste of time. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn: Actually, it proves my point that "insurrection" is better than "storming" based on those results. There are two outcomes to this discussion: either the title stays as "storming", which according to your criteria is the worst of those results, or it changes to "insurrection", which may not be optimal but it's an improvement. I asked if you agreed that "insurrection" is a preferable outcome to this discussion, and you did not answer. The word "riot" is not under discussion here. Which of the two outcomes to this RM do you prefer? Remember there can be further discussions after this one, whatever name is settled on isn't carved in stone. ~Anachronist (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Anachronist: I answered your question here. To reiterate and reinforce my point: Renaming the article to "insurrection" would be a mistake because it would violate our policies, in particular WP:NCE, because "insurrection" clearly isn't the most common term. It would also be a waste of time because we'd have to start a new discussion right away to rename it to a term that actually conforms to WP:NCE. Which outcome to this RM would I prefer? I think it should be closed immediately because it is based on a false claim. Let's be better than the Trumpists. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      A difference in opinion on individual policy-based matters is not constructively managed by accusing the other side of "violating our policies" and "false claims" in bold letters. Ironically, your idea to immediately close this section goes against policy. Alalch Emis (talk) 21:28, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Alalch Emis: Your claim that "insurrection" is the "established common name for this event" is simply false. The sources clearly show that it isn't. That's not a "difference in opinion". I do think you're acting in good faith, but you're simply mistaken about the prevalence of the term "insurrection" in reliable sources.
      You're probably right that an admin closing this request because it's based on a false claim would go against policy. I'd ask you to withdraw the request. (I assume that's allowed? I'm not sure.) It currently seems unlikely to pass, and even if it does, we'd have a new discussion right away. Let's save time, stop this discussion, and start a new one to rename the article to a term that actually conforms to WP:NCE. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:52, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      It isn't allowed. The request isn't a topic of private interest but merely started a process that has it's course now and is in the domain of the community as a whole. I appreciate your perspective, but there's seven days to go. I think it will result in a move. In either case a subsequent move discussion is not a problem. I adhere to the same policy as you and find no false claim on my part. If we are dealing with a riot, how is this true – Goals: Disrupt, delay, and change the Electoral College vote count in Trump's favor, Capture and destroy the certificates of ascertainment of the Electoral College votes[3], Pressure Congress and Vice President Mike Pence to overturn election of former vice president Joe Biden. That does not a riot make. Or rather it goes way past a riot. It's a matter of preciseness WP:PRECISE. Commonness is not the only criterion. If you have two common descriptors, the one which is more precise is better. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I wasn't talking about WP:PRECISE. Your claim regarding WP:NCE is simply false – "capitol insurrection" is not the "established common name for this event". So far there is no established common name, but "capitol riot" is currently the most common (and comes closest to being "established"), while "insurrection" is at best in a distant third or fourth place (roughly ten times less common than "riot"). Yes, there are multiple criteria, but since "insurrection" is so clearly the wrong title according to WP:NCE, it doesn't really matter how well it meets other criteria. (By the way, I do think "riot" or "attack" are more WP:PRECISE and WP:NDESC than "insurrection", but that's indeed a matter of opinion to some extent, and I won't get into these issues right now.)
      Anyway. We can't have another move request while this one is open, so I'm afraid we'll have to wait seven days until it fails, and then we can have a new request that meets WP:NCE and has a better chance of succeeding. Well, so be it. As you said, the current name isn't terrible. We can live with it for another 14 days. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      P.S. @Alalch Emis: "Either way, this discussion has only a little bit to do with definitions [...], but it has everything to do with the common name" — These are your words. The most common name by far is "capitol riot", so according to your words, that should be the title. Why are we even having this discussion? — Chrisahn (talk) 00:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Chrisahn:, @Anachronist:, and@Alalch Emis:, et al: The numbers we've given above are Google's search results for all time. I don't know how to get the count of articles for (say) the last week or last 3 days. When I add "&tbs=qdr:m" (or some other time period), Google no longer reports the number of findings. Does someone know how to get those numbers? Inkwzitv (talk) 01:14, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Yeah, I noticed the same thing, to my frustration. It's far more meaningful to get a count of news published in the last 24 hours or even the last week, but the count doesn't appear. I tried other search engines (DuckDuckGo, Ecosia, Bing) and they don't provide hit counts at all. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Inkwzitv: Good point. https://serpapi.com/playground should work. Set tbm to "News" or "Google Search", and set tbs to "qdr:d" (previous 24 hours) or "qdr:w" (previous week) etc. See total_results in JSON result. Current numbers with "qdr:d" (I also set location to "United States"):
      News search, exact matches (search terms in quotes): "capitol insurrection" 6,930, "insurrection at the capitol" 5,210, "capitol riot" 1,360,000, "capitol riots" 13,400
      News search, inexact matches (without quotes): capitol insurrection 1,140,000, insurrection at the capitol 1,320,000, capitol riot 1,850,000, capitol riots 650,000
      General search, exact matches (search terms in quotes): "capitol insurrection" 635,000, "insurrection at the capitol" 27,700, "capitol riot" 2,050,000, "capitol riots" 824,000
      General search, inexact matches (without quotes): capitol insurrection 7,370,000, insurrection at the capitol 6,840,000, capitol riot 11,200,000, capitol riots 12,000,000 — Chrisahn (talk) 01:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      When I run that Google search, "insurrectionists" appears in the title of the 8th item and in the body of 2 of the earlier ones. Things are fluid there. Inkwzitv (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2021 (UTC) Updated.Inkwzitv (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Sounds like a headline, not a title. Title chosen should make clear that this is an article about an individual event. VQuakr (talk) 18:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support There is sufficient evidence to call what transpired on January 6th as an insurrection,especially with the new information coming out,that it was planned Alhanuty (talk) 18:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Evidence provided in this thread and further up the page seem to establish "Insurrection" or "Riot" as the common names for the event, more than "storming". Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 19:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I am not sure that the invasion and vandalizing of one building counts as an insurrection. It was a riot, pure and simple.Slatersteven (talk) 19:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      This was not merely entering and vandalizing. What makes it an insurrection is that there was an attempt to kidnap and kill government officials in order to facilitate unconstitutional continuation of the current regime. -- Beland (talk) 20:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose I think there's still enough uncertainty and disagreement about whether it was an insurrection that it's better for the title not to pre-judge the question. "Attack" seems like the natural word to use. Like 9/11 attacks. I also agree that the year should be included to make it clear it's talking about a specific event. Binarybits (talk) 19:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Attack in itself is a very unspecific descriptor. When applied to an event consisting of flying planes into buildings, there isn't a specificity/preciseness problem, because there isn't a common more precise term (i could invent "hijack-crashing" on the spot but it isn't common). When applying "attack" to this event, there is a really big problem of this sort, as "attack" could really mean anything. Despite it feeling somewhat natural to go around using more general words and relying on context for the specifics, I don't think that's a useful impulse right now. Alalch Emis (talk) 19:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. It's consistent with the body of reliable references. --Cold Season (talk) 19:42, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Given that this seems to just be weighing if insurrection is better than storming or not, I am inclined to believe that insurrection is more accurate to use. There is a talk page section detailing reliable sources called The "coup" & "insurrection" discussion. Said section hows support that coup or insurrection could be more accurate. The proposal explains that there are potential issues calling this a coup that do not exist when calling it an insurrection. Given that we have a significant number of reliable sources using a term that does not require worrying above if it failed or succeeded compared to a name that was decided on at the time due to early reports, I believe that insurrection is clearly better than storming especially when WP:COMMONNAME is considered. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:45, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support strongly: as I have consistently, and as increasing numbers of reliable sources have come to characterize the incident in recent days, as more evidence has become available. soibangla (talk) 20:02, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME: "riot" is easily beating "insurrection" in reliable sources. See this excellent infographic. StAnselm (talk) 20:13, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks for the link, StAnselm! It's unfortunate that they included fringe sources like Breitbart and Epoch Times but excluded NPR and Huffington Post. As far as I can tell, the latter are the only major outlets who still regularly use the term "insurrection". It would be better to include them in a count, if just to show that even that wouldn't change the outcome: "capitol riot" is the most common name (by a large margin), and "insurrection" isn't even in the top three. — Chrisahn (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I think they include the Epoch Times precisely to show that is is a fringe source. StAnselm (talk) 20:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Epoch Times and Breitbart are listed at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources as unreliable, because they have intentionally published falsehoods and conspiracy theories. Epoch Times is a propaganda outlet for Falun Gong. The selection of sources by Visualcapitalist does not follow stats from other sites on the most popular news websites. According to [28] only 38% of Americans get their news from web sites, so more weight should be given to TV, radio, and print sources (though these overlap with web sources). -- Beland (talk) 20:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @StAnselm: Makes sense. Good point. @Beland: I agree that fringe sources like Epoch Times and Breitbart should be excluded from such a count, but it wouldn't change the outcome: "capitol riot" is the most common term (by a large margin). As far as I can tell, "insurrection" isn't even in the top three ("attack" and "siege" are more common). — Chrisahn (talk) 20:55, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chrisahn: Sure, but that count is completely missing mainstream radio, TV, and cable news sources like NPR, NBC, ABC, CBS, PBS, and MSNBC. It's also unclear if these words are used as the name of the event or to describe its component actions or as synonyms after the name has already been used. -- Beland (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Beland: Correct. These numbers are just a start. To get a better picture, we'd have to gather our own data. I've counted search results, headlines and occurrences in articles in several (albeit somewhat unsystematic) ways, and I'm pretty sure that a thorough evaluation would show that "capitol riot" is currently the most common term, followed by "attack", with "insurrection" maybe in third or fourth place. — Chrisahn (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    But they use a better word "riot", in the headline. Insurrection, being a crime, shouldn't be used until there has been due process, a trial, etc. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rioting and storming a restricted area are also crimes. Fox News follows the general U.S. media practice of using "allegedly" to avoid implying the guilt of a particular person before trial. It did not use "allegedly" in either case in this article, I assume because it does not attribute any specific act to any specific person. But regardless of whether you prefer "riot" or "insurrection", would you agree that both are neutral, given they are both used by both conservative and liberal leaning media sources? -- Beland (talk) 19:34, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The news media should have used 'allegedly', but they did not. The term 'riot', in general, is not as 'damning', as the word 'insurrection'. I do not believe that either term is neutral, really. Parsing the words here, for this article, is a difficult choice. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:45, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps the term has negative or positive connotations depending on the feelings of the reader about the act itself. Some find the insurrection glorious, some find it horrifying. I agree with the editorial judgement of the politically-diverse, reliable-source, professional newsrooms who use "insurrection" as a neutral term without "allegedly". -- Beland (talk) 02:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Definitely, it depends on which side of the fence that you are on, politically. That is why I'm opposing the use of the word "insurrection", as it is not a neutral term, as required in NPOV. Funandtrvl (talk) 19:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    By that argument, all words are NPOV. For example, "banana" would be non-neutral because some people like them and some people do not. Given that news sources of various political biases use the word, it does not seem to be objectionable to any particular point of view, just the same as that no news source shies away from the word "banana" even if they think they are yucky. -- Beland (talk) 03:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Not an improvement on the current title. “Storming” is a more accurate description of what happened than “insurrection”. After this RM is closed, if someone wants to start an RM for “2021 riot at the United States Capitol”, I would agree with it, and I see that some others here would prefer "riot" as well. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    P.S. The OP says the event meets the definition of “insurrection”. That is incorrect. I recommend that people actually look up Insurrection. It has no article of its own; it is a redirect to “Rebellion”. That article gives one brief definition of “insurrection,” saying “An armed but limited rebellion is an insurrection,[2] and if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency.” Note that according to this classification, an insurgency insurrection is supposed to be “armed”, and the established government is supposed to recognize the rebels as belligerents. The current incident did not meet either of those conditions. -- MelanieN (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Your parsing of that definition is off the mark. You seem to have misread this part: "...if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents...". Does not recognize. In an insurrection, the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents. What took place was by all accounts an armed and limited rebellion against the United States government. I don't put an emphasis on the armed part but some or many were armed, and there were pipe bombs. Other definitions don't put an emphasis on this part either, but on violence. That excerpt from a WP article is not the best source (not bad either, but not the best) and does not even try to present a ground-up definition of insurrection but derives it, differentially, from rebellion, which is the topic of the article. Alalch Emis (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No, yours is off the mark. Please reread the whole phrase you quoted part of. It says, "if the established government does not recognize the rebels as belligerents then they are insurgents and the revolt is an insurgency." Again: when the government does not recognize the other side as belligerents, that is an insurgency. Not an insurrection. If it does recognize the other side as belligerents, then it could be an insurrection according to this definition - but the government did not do that in this case. An insurrection is an armed but limited rebellion where the government does recognize the other side as belligerents. That's not what happened here. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Oops, I see my error: I said "insurgency" when I meant "insurrection" in my first note. Sorry about that. I have fixed it. The bottom line remains: even if you grant the "armed" part, which I hesitate to do, then per the distinction quoted this was an insurgency. It was not an insurrection. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    wikt:insurrection defines it as "A violent uprising of part or all of a national population against the government or other authority." wikt:insurgency defines it as "rebellion; revolt; the state of being insurgent". Neither of these definitions requires "armed", only "violent", though the mob storming the capitol was clearly violent and partially armed, as arrest records show. This event meets both of the Wiktionary definitions. Wikipedia's definitions also leave open the possibility that something can be an "insurrection" and "insurgency" at the same time. -- Beland (talk) 03:02, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per it's too soon to be worrying about it. It came up as the top google hit, so people can find the article as it is titled now. Let some time past to see how news sources converge on describing it. NE Ent 21:01, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: The proposed name expresses a judgmental POV and gives the impression of a more organized rebellion than is accurate for the actions of this confused and disorganized mob. — BarrelProof (talk) 21:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME, for reasons already stated. In my personal opinion the current name is satisfactory; the determination of whether the event constitutes an "insurrection" is something for the US justice system to decide, regardless of reporting on the subject. AlexKitfox (talk) 22:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Charges of sedition have been filed so I think it's pretty clear that this could qualify as an insurrection. Herbfur (Eric, He/Him) (talk) 00:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Congress has already decided to call the event as an insurrection in the Article of Impeachment. Z22 (talk) 01:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: can someone who supports this change provide me with a reliable source that this is the unique insurrection at the Capitol to date? For instance, this edit claims that the U.S. Capitol has been occupied six previous times to this incident; so what makes us so confident this is the first insurrection? Absent such a source, we would need to add "2021" or some unique identifier to the proposed title. — Bilorv (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Here you go, use Ctrl+F "Capitol". None of the included incidents were an insurrection, nor do they remotely resemble an insurrection. Simply: nothing like this has ever happened before. Alalch Emis (talk) 22:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bilorv: here is a historian sharing his nuanced view on the unprecedented nature of the event (not calling it insurrection directly; uses "rebellion") — Alalch Emis 03:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: firstly, a very interesting read. Much enjoyed it. But it doesn't quite convince me that this is undisputedly the first "insurrection at" the Capitol. The professor describes "right before Lincoln’s inauguration an attempt by Southern sympathizers to storm the Captiol [sic]". And sure, they didn't breach it, but it seems like an insurrection attempt at (not in) the Capitol as much as this one. — Bilorv (talk) 09:51, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Bilorv: glad you liked it. Here's a historian's account of the said attempt: the 1861 plot to storm the capitol that didn't materialize. On Feb. 13 there were protests outside, but no violence. The lack of violence clearly distinguishes this episode as not-an-insurrection. An insurrection is a public phenomenon that either is or isn't. An "attempted insurrection" is an event with all the features of an insurrection that didn't produce the intended outcome, but we simply call it an insurrection (as most insurrectons fail anyway). An insurrection that didn't progress past the planning stage or the protest stage is not an even an "attempted insurrection". That event lacks recognition today, so it isn't mentioned in the First inauguration of Abraham Lincoln article. But, yes, the parallels are certainly valid. — Alalch Emis 20:23, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - If I may plagiarize from my statement in Archive 1, numerous people in the "storming" discussion had spoken about this title, myself included. It's the most accurate. It's not a "storming" because most people are interested in staying outside, whether peacefully or not, and of those people, indeed, there are many who have chosen to remain peaceful. Insurrection will not force those who are not being violent to be included with those who are. My proposal: mention in-article the division, that there are a small group of the "protest" who have turned the effort into an insurrection, though they are just that, a small group within. LegendoftheGoldenAges85, Team  M  (talk | worse talk) 23:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support as per Alalch Emis. Edouard d'Erasme (talk) 23:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Oppose: Insurrection is better than Storming. The word insurrection is defined as a violent uprising against an authority or government. Insurrection is a concise, accurate, NPOV word that best describes the event. Insurrection is the wording used in the impeachment article associated with this event. 2021 in the title is not necessary and will not likely be necessary years and decades from now. Jared.h.wood (talk) 23:37, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    UPDATE: Changing to oppose per WP:COMMONNAME arguments that 'Riot' would be better. If used, 'riot' is general enough that the year would be important to include. I support 2021 United States Capitol riot Jared.h.wood (talk) 00:27, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Support - Everything that has come out since the event has pointed to it being an insurrection. The definition of the word is met, with citizens rebelling against the seat of the U.S. Government to prevent it from conducting business. The event was being called an insurrection on the House and Senate floors after order was restored, and government officials continued describing it as an insurrection over the following days. Also, Trump was impeached for "Incitement of Insurrection," further defining the event as an insurrection. CheeseburgerWithFries (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: in restricting the choices between "storming" and "insurrection", this RM is heading towards being a classic candidate for a move review. Lots of people are opposing on the basis that "riot" is better, but lots of people are supporting on the basis that both "riot" and "insurrection" are better than "storming". So - is the closer free to move it to "riot"? If not, it would seem that the obvious argument at WP:Move review is that "riot" is actually the most favored option. Why was it arbitrarily excluded from the premise of the discussion? StAnselm (talk) 23:48, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I did not exclude it perfidiously it to wrest it out of the picture. I did what I thought was the best in terms of procedural and material policy, and with mind to physical constraints, knowing that this section can't ever be "succinct" in the slightest which is very important for the people who will do the heroic task of closing this. Adding Option A (insurrection) and Option B (riot) would have added a lot of extra weight, and probably have led to formatting and length issues as more protracted micro-discussions and "Comments" would emerge. This is more structured and cleaner. Kind regards from the OP Alalch Emis (talk) 00:12, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You didn't need to provide specific options. But what makes this a poor (i.e. MR-worthy) RM is that you said "Please only advocate in the form of "Support" or "Oppose" without suggesting alternatives." That is not how we usually do RMs. StAnselm (talk) 02:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Strongly - "Storming" is a perfectly apt term and was used extensively throughout the event on live news, as well as long after the event was over. Besides that fact, it is evokes the correct image for the reader. You don't hear people use the term "insurrection" in regards to failed insurrections. That's why the news has clarified their statements with "attempted insurrection" or "wannabe insurrectionists" when describing the rioters. "Storming" is far more apt, and the event has been logged in public consciousness as the Storming of the Capitol. WP:COMMONNAME and all that jazz. RobotGoggles (talk) 23:57, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      If you look at List of revolutions and rebellions, the terms "rebellion", "revolution", "revolt", "uprising", and "insurrection" are all in use. I don't hear people on the street saying any of these things, because they are relatively rare in modern U.S. history compared to the many political protests and movements. The dictionary definition of revolution implies success, but insurrection does not. The Wikipedia list includes both successful attempts, like the Wilmington insurrection of 1898, but mostly unsuccessful events like Łódź insurrection, Razlovtsi insurrection, and the 1733 slave insurrection on St. John. While I do see some stories using the term "attempted insurrection", many stories describe it as an insurrection that has in fact happened, even if there was a failed attempt at overturning, overthrowing, or pulling off a revolution or coup. Given the dictionary definition, "attempted insurrection" seems like an over-correction error. See for example [30] [31] and [32] that do not use "attempted". -- Beland (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: I already made this comment on a different thread but putting it here for completeness. I think the word insurrection is now used everywhere. The list of examples can be seen on that thread.[33]
    My key support is that an important reliable source is from the Congress itself. The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection which had 4 elements in it:[34][35]
    • Beaching and vandalizing of the Capitol
    • Injuring and killed law enforcement personnel
    • Menacing the Members of Congress, the Vice President, and Congressional personnel
    • Engaging in other violent, deadly, destructive and seditious acts
    I think the word breaching is similar to the current word "storming" that is used as the title. That is just one element of the overall event in which it is known in the article as an "insurrection". By leaving the title to just one element of the event, it may not capture the overall picture of what it is. Many reliable sources (including a key reliable source from the Congress which will be used in studies in the future) now describe the overall event as an insurrection instead of just as the "storming" part of it. Z22 (talk) 00:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Article of Impeachment describes the event as an insurrection This is the best argument I have seen yet for "insurrection". -- MelanieN (talk) 00:16, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Since the article of impeachment was written with firm political and legal goals – rather the opposite of WP:NPOV – this could be seen as an argument against using "insurrection" here... — Chrisahn (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's not beat around the bush about this. This impeachment, just like the three other presidential impeachments in U.S. history, as well as every single decision made by the House or the Senate, was of a political nature. It's why anyone could've been confident that the articles would pass the Democratic-held House, and why myself and many others are willing to predict that the articles will not pass the Republican-led (soon-to-be Democratic-led)[a] Senate with the 2/3 vote necessary. Taking the wording of the articles at face value as necessarily factually true is to accept the House's premise (and, notably, not the Senate's), which in WP:WIKIVOICE we cannot due. It's why the article on Bill Clinton doesn't say definitively that he perjured or obstructed justice—those are legal definitions that need to be settled in court. The impeachment vote is merely the opinion of whoever's lucky enough to be the ruling party. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 09:51, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    1. ^ Well, technically, tied, including independents Angus King and Bernie Sanders as Democrats, with Vice President Kamala Harris, acting as president of the Senate, as tiebreaker.
    • Support because of how commonly "insurrection" is used in sources; I have seen few use the word "storming" as a common name for the event, but many use the word "insurrection" Nekomancerjade (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose: "insurrection" isn't neutral. It implies that all the rioters had the intention to overthrow Congress, which I believe is false.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - I made the earlier successful requested move to the present title (from the earlier "protests"), but I am not wedded to the title at all, and the usage in the reliable sources has shifted decidedly to "insurrection" — e.g.:
    • Washington Post today: "the wake of the Capitol insurrection"
    • NYT yesterday: "found to have aided the insurrection"
    • AP yesterday: "an insurrection meant to stop [Biden's] ascension to power."
    • WSJ a few days ago: "the insurrection at the Capitol" (also uses "storming of the Capitol last week by a pro-Trump mob" and "the riots")
    Sure, riots, siege, and storming are all used to some degree in the RS, and each could be decent titles (they all refer to the same event and are used interchangeably within source material), but "insurrection" seems the best fit here. Neutralitytalk 02:00, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The usage has actually shifted decidedly to "riot"; "capitol riot" is between 2 and 200 times (depending on how we count) more common than "capitol insurrection". See numbers above. — Chrisahn (talk) 02:15, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, the word "insurrection" in the NYT pieces is only used when either quoting someone else directly, or continuing discussion of that quote. For all "NYT voice" references, they use the word "riot". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:47, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Two of the four links you posted use the term "Riot" in the headline, zero use inssurection. You're cherry-picking. Miserlou (talk) 16:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think using raw counting is one measure, but when a reliable source started to define a news section as "Insurrection at the Capitol" (see [36]), that should give a weight. Z22 (talk) 02:51, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I would not oppose renaming with attack or riot(s), but insurrection is undeniably the wrong word to use here. Dylanvt (talk) 21:41, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Those events are not similar at all. Except for the the Macedonian example, which is indeed a storming of the legislature, and is more of a real storming than the subject of this article. However it was not an insurrection – the goal there was to cause a ruckus and beat up some politicians. There was no constitutionally interesting aspect to it. Also all those articles you came up with are Start-Class or unrated and are not authoritative for anything. Ultimately, this discussion is not about how "storming" is bad and unusable language that can't be applied to a storming. That's just missing the point altogether. Alalch Emis (talk) 06:06, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    How exactly is the Storming of the Venezuelan National Congress, for example, "not similar at all" (or the 2017 Venezuelan National Assembly attack for that matter, which uses "attack" instead of "storming", which I think would also be better than "insurrection" in this case)? In the case of the Storming of the Venezuelan National Congress, protestors outside were angered, became a mob, tried to enter the National Congress and were repelled by guards. 4 people were killed: the vice president and three MPs. This sounds very similar to me.
    In any event most of the (very few) articles that have "insurrection" in their titles involve hundreds or thousands of casualties, and militaries, which doesn't seem to describe this at all. You could perhaps, at best (or at worst?), call it the 2021 attempted insurrection at the United States Capitol. Dylanvt (talk) 17:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Dylanvt: Whiskey Insurrection 3-4 killed — Alalch Emis 23:20, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Whiskey Rebellion Dylanvt (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Rebellion is a more severe version of insurrection so your reply is counterproductive to your position. If Whiskey Rebellion/Insurrection can be called a rebellion then – even more so – this more severe event can be called an insurrection. — Alalch Emis 23:43, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The guiding principle is WP:COMMONNAME and there is little evidence in this discussion that the proposed name is the most common name. (I'm not sure that the current name is the most common one, either, but it's the status quo and it's not egregiously wrong.) The close of the previous discussion explicitly noted that COMMONNAME is the guiding principle so it's frustrating that it's scarcely referenced in this discussion (and not at all in the opener's statement!). Gwennie-nyan and others are correct that this event is still developing and whatever clarity will emerge is still emerging; I suspect that it may crystalize as further charges are filed and some progress to trial which will take several months at least. Finally, it's very disturbing and annoying that the opener of this discussion is attempting to limit the discussion and the options of other editors; this is not only inappropriate but also counterproductive. (I'm not watching this article so please ping me directly if you'd like a reply from me.) ElKevbo (talk) 05:24, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose and Procedural Close The article was recently renamed and there should be a 30 day moratorium on RM requests. We cannot constantly be having RM discussions over and over again. The previous consensus should stand for at least 30 days. Also, the proposed title is not WP:CONCISE. Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:30, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There is no such thing as this moratorium you speak of. It takes more effort to stifle an open and substantive discussion than that. The proposed title has fewer characters than the current title and fewer syllables than "Twenty twenty one storming of the United States Capitol" Alalch Emis (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's disruptive having RM discussions every few hours, also your proposed title in addition to not being WP:CONCISE is also not WP:PRECISE either. "Insurrection" is too vague without the year. "The Trump Insurrection" is both precise and concise. I would support that title but not the one you proposed for the reasons stated. Octoberwoodland (talk) 07:50, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    What's disruptive is your "procedural close" on something that will most obviously never be procedurally closed. Alalch Emis (talk) 20:27, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It needs to be 6-month moratorium for moving this article in order to ensure that the stability of the article. 118.96.188.169 (talk) 08:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly oppose How could 8,000 unarmed rebel against a nation of a population of 328,000,000 ? A protest gone out of control or insurrection or uprising ? It is growing to a unencyclopedic war of words. The storming is what happened; insurrection or more, adds a political rating. --Robertiki (talk) 07:04, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The relative numbers of people involved are irrelevant. Not all insurrections succeed, or could even plausibly succeed, but that doesn't stop some people from doing it anyway. That said, forcing a change in national government does not require fighting 328 million people. Many coups have succeeded, at least in the short term, by killing national leaders with a small number of fighters. "Storming" is just entering a building or area quickly, by force. "Insurrection" is certainly a political act, but the mob, some of whom were armed, did not storm the Capitol just in order to vandalize it for fun. They had the explicit political goal of forcing Congress to unconstitutionally certify Trump as the winner of the 2020 election. They were shouting that Vice President Mike Pence should be hanged, and even erected a noose. Had they been more determined and killed a substantial number of members of Congress, they could have changed the balance of power in the federal government after the riot was suppressed and governors appointed replacements not necessarily of the same party. -- Beland (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    With such a large difference of numbers ? I agree that, if there is internal help (which looks not the case), a thousand armed people would make the difference, but unarmed need a really bigger support, like the 100,000 at Wisconsin in 2011 (and that changed the status). More over, from the videos I don't hear chants asking for killing anybody. The fact that someone talked (mostly on blogs, for what I understand, of killing or hanging does not mean it was the crowd intention, like you suggested in a insurrection. And that crowd did not act like a mob (please look at videos of the real mobs acts), not more than at BLM protests. Simply stating disappointment at the Congress members or pressing them to change position, is not a insurrection, otherwise, what should it be about 2011 Wisconsin protests on 20 February 2011 ? --Robertiki (talk) 18:29, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A comment on this: the crowd absolutely did call for killing Mike Pence—it did not come from the blogosphere. Here's audio of the event: they literally chant "hang Mike Pence" several times. As for the point on there being "internal help," whether by members of Congress or police, prominent individuals have already alleged that there was, which is currently being followed by reporting and investigations, and could then potentially culminate in political or legal action. That situation is currently developing, but I certainly don't think there's enough to say it doesn't look like the case at this time. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 09:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Like others have said this title sounds like a headline and does not include the year. Riots would be a better option than the proposed naming but even the current title is widely reported. JayJayWhat did I do? 07:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support with the caution that this might need a date attached at some later point should it become the first of more than one attempt. After all, there were three Russian Revolutions. That the first two did not succeed does not make them irrelevant. We do not yet know that this will be the only insurrection. WordwizardW (talk) 10:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Oppose - There are several false statements by the OP above:
    "This is the big RM that people have been waiting for, for the past week or so." No: The consensus of editors in the discussions above is to wait. "If you think a very close variant of the above such as "United States Capitol insurrection" is better, type "Support". A bold editor, or a subsequent technical move process will take care of this detail." No: Any tittle change would require another formal requested move. "Policy statement: WP:NCE, there is an established common name for this event, based on "where" (United States Capitol) and "what" (Insurrection). The differences in the exact phrasing of the common name variants are neutral and unimportant." " "Riot", "breach", "siege", "attack", "assault", "invasion" are inadequate for not meeting the above standards either partially or at all." No: The phrasing of the title is very important and again it is falsely asserted that 'insurrection' is the common name. 'Attack' and 'Riot' are the most commonly used terms by sources. (Per my Google news searches above, another editor's search in this section and the Associated Press article below) Riot? Insurrection? Words matter in describing Capitol siege By DAVID BAUDER Associated Press [[37]] "The use of “riot” as a descriptor is almost universally accepted, even though the word has become fraught with racial connotations and despite the relatively gradual way the story unfolded." "The near unanimity came despite riot sometimes being a loaded term, and a subject of debate for how it was applied last summer to unrest following George Floyd’s death and Black Lives Matter protests." "In its coverage, the Times has called it a “mob attack,” “deadly riot” and “violent assault,” and said Trump supporters “laid siege” to the Capitol. The Post has talked of a “horde of rioters” and “terrifying attack.” Another criteria for article titles is being 'recognisable.' The following quotes from the Associated Press article shows that 'insurrection' fails to meet this: "The coverage has sent Americans scurrying to the dictionary and news organizations carefully considering terminology." "The past week has brought phrases not commonly seen into use. One is insurrection." "Merriam-Webster said the top words looked up in its online dictionary on Wednesday were: insurrection, fascism, impeach and sedition." Another title criteria is 'naturalness' - per the above, not even close. As to procedure, it is confusing to have discussions in 4-5 sections and a WP:RM du jour. On a lighter note, #Trumpsurrection hashtag is now on Twitter ;) "It's not a "protest." Call it what it is: A Trumpsurrection. A violent revolt by white supremacists defending a con-man's ego. That is literally what this is." Trumpsurrection - Urban Dictionary: "The end of the line for the worst president in recorded history; no further delusionary explanation required." Stay healthy! Best, IP75 (talk) 10:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The reader should be advised that you deleted my following reply from the talk page and I am entering it again: /<- it's of no import/ There was no consensus to wait. If there are several people who want to wait, and they say "wait", the people who don't agree won't say "no let's not wait, let's act", they will simply act. Everyone is entitled to act in ways which don't contravene policy and doesn't need to get permission from person xyz and get into protracted discussions with them just because they said "wait". Therefore, only the "wait" group's opinions on this matter will be visible, and the "act" group will be sporadically visible through their actions. This can lead someone to believe there is consensus to "wait" where there is nothing of the sort. To believe so is naive, and shows a lack of sense for the broader process. As for the rest of your post, you misquoted me. Alalch Emis (talk) 20:25, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Regarding "The reader should be advised...": I'm sure you meant no harm, but I think you went against WP:TPO when you moved IP75's comment. Your response was lost when IP75 restored the original version. Also without ill intent. Anyway, you restored your response, so all is well now. Take care! — Chrisahn (talk) 22:58, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I followed the "Sectioning" guideline of that policy explicitly but failed to cite the policy which was probably unwise. I took the remark back. The intent was purely positive, and I gave the section a somewhat favorable title. Thanks and all the best. Alalch Emis (talk) 00:23, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    — 5440orSleep (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • I skimmed that article, but don't see anywhere that says the Wisconsin capitol building was seized. Am I missing something? -- Beland (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Beland: A couple of quotes: "By February 20, protestors had undertaken a physical occupation of the Capitol building..."; "...after occupation of the Capitol for more than two weeks..."; "The crowds grew to thousands, surging into the Capitol. Police did not attempt to remove them." See the article for details. As far as I can tell, "seizure of the capitol" is a reasonable description. 5440orSleep's claim "a more direct threat to the process of constitutional government" appears to be quite wrong though – there was little violence, no one was killed, no lawmakers had to hide from attackers. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:28, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Current title is a little clunky, but it usually takes awhile for a common name to settle for major events and it's not currently nor is it likely to ever be "insurrection". I wouldn't say that's a wholly incorrect word, but it's certainly a reactionary one. Thadeuss (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Current title is closer to NPoV. While many sources do use the phrase "Insurrection", it's not unanimous -- so us using it would be undue. The current title would also be closer to WP:COMMONNAME. — Czello 15:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Czello If the words in the title don't naturally gel with the prominent words in the content in how strong a language is used, then the burden of NPoV is merely shifted from the name to the content (or vice versa), creating an uncomfortable disbalance where the content doesn't meet the expectations set by the title, and the language of the article begins to look off: suspicious, judgmental, etc. The function of NPoV is thus undermined. As things stand now, there is a significant desync, because: how does "storming" match Methods: ... shootings ... tactics of terrorism (attempted bombings, ... intention to take hostages, kidnap and execute) (I could cite half the infobox here)? Those words are much stronger language, and there's a whole aggregation of them. "Insurrection" is much more flexible and creates some breathing room for that inescapably harsh language, while not being all that strong. That means that "insurrection" brings the whole article (title + content) closer to NPoV. Therefore "insurrection" is better with regard to NPoV. Alalch Emis (talk) 02:13, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Yes, the words in the title should be consistent with the the text. That's why the title should not be "insurrection", but "riot" or "attack". The word "riot" appears over 220 times in the article (including ca. 90 times "rioter"); "attack": ca. 50 times; "insurrection": ca. 40 times (including ca. 10 times "insurrectionist"). That's a five to one ratio of "riot" vs. "insurrection". (The ratio in WP:RS is similar, maybe higher.) The first sentence says "...a riot and violent attack...", and that has been the consensus for about a week now. Words like "coup" or "insurrection" were inserted into the first sentence a few times, but they were reverted quickly. Putting "insurrection" into the title would create exactly the "uncomfortable disbalance" you mention. — Chrisahn (talk) 05:19, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, you see how many mentions of "insurrection" there are in the article? Precisely that is one factor of disbalance (and only one of many), because if you're reading an article titled using "storming" or "riot" why should you expect to see "insurrection(ist)" anywhere in wikiwoice? There should be precisely 0 such uses in wikivoice. On the other hand, if you have "insurrection" as a title, it's perfectly valid and reasonable to have as many uses of "riot" because riots are a natural component or precursor to an insurrection. This is the simplest set theory problem. "Insurrection" is tonally apt for all those words, it takes them in no problem, and "Storming" spits many of them out, as does "Riot"; particularly the quoted part of the infobox and other prominent (valid) dramatic language regarding threat to life, terror tactics and constitutional calamity. The NPoV of those prominent elements of the page is in question as long as the NPoV burden is unduly shifted onto them, while the conveniently neutered title carries none. That's a cop-out and won't work in the long run. It will cause degradation in the page as people will chip away at the small bits of strong (and 100% valid) language to intuitively "fix" this disbalance. Alalch Emis (talk) 06:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Your reasoning is flawed in several ways.
    1. if you're reading an article titled using "storming" or "riot" why should you expect to see "insurrection(ist)" – An article titled "riot" can of course contain the term "insurrection(ist)" in the text, just like an article titled "attack" can use the term "terror(ist)". Our article on 9/11 is titled September 11 attacks, not September 11 terror attacks.
    2. riots are a natural component or precursor to an insurrection – No, they aren't. Insurrections often occur without any riots, and most insurrections last much longer and are more organized (and often more clandestine) than riots. For example, see Insurrection of 10 August 1792; Greenwood, New York, insurrection of 1882; Yên Thế Insurrection; Norte Grande insurrection; Anarchist insurrection of Alt Llobregat; 1971 JVP insurrection; 1987–1989 JVP insurrection; and many others.
    3. This is the simplest set theory problem – No, it's not. We're talking about empirical and linguistic questions, not mathematics or pure logic. Neither "riot" nor "insurrection" has a precise intensional or extensional definition that everyone agrees on. Neither term includes all instances of the other.
    4. conveniently neutered – As many others have pointed out, neither "riot" nor "insurrection" are neutral terms. But "insurrection" tends to have more positive connotations than "riot". For example, the American Revolutionary War is sometimes called War of the Insurrection. I guess the mob of January 6 would actually prefer calling it an "insurrection" rather than a "riot".
    5. people will chip away at the small bits of strong (and 100% valid) language – That's unfounded speculation. Many WP:RS use "insurrection" to refer to the events of January 6, and that won't change, so we won't have a problem keeping words like "insurrection" in the article. But currently "Capitol riot" is the WP:COMMONNAME (more precisely: it's the most common name by far), and thus the best title. — Chrisahn (talk) 17:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I strongly second the points made here by Chrisahn. Dylanvt (talk) 21:36, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't want to use too much space countering these refutations. I will only concentrate on the last point. This is what one user said down below regarding the disbalance i've spoken about: "May be the article could be improved in that respect, but editors are inclined to rely on what are deemed to be RS, and sometimes let political statements appear in Wikivoice." – you see, the instinct is to modulate the tone of the content, in the parts that appear like political speech, and to presume that there is political speech, when there may be none. And indeed in this case, the parts of the article I highlighted to them aren't political statements, they are in wikivoice through and through! When the language of both the title and the content are functions of NPoV-setting, and only one of the two is changeable (at some point the name becomes set and virtually unchangeable, but the content is always malleable) – whenever there is a tonal disbalance, it will be perceived as "this could be phrased more neutrally", and an instinct will be to change the content, not the title (because it's near impossible). The fulfilment of this impulse drives the need for various rationalizations such as: "political statements" etc. It's actually kind of sad and hilarious at the same time. It was an experienced editor who said that. In this case it's not that the article could be improved (it certainly could, but in other regards) – the title could be improved. — Alalch Emis 06:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    political statements (19:37, 22 January 2021) refers particularly to politicians quoted in sixth paragraph (as now corrected): 'The events were widely condemned by political leaders and organizations in the United States and internationally. Mitch McConnell (R–KY), Senate Majority Leader, called the storming of the Capitol a "failed insurrection" provoked by the president's "lies" and said that the Senate "will not bow to lawlessness or intimidation" ' and the like. Qexigator (talk) 13:03, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    We aren't obligated to remain neutral. We are obligated to call it what others are calling it.
    No such thing has been documented in this discussion. I have taken part in those discussions, and provided firm evidence that this has been the only insurrection at the Capitol. — Alalch Emis 03:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    We have to specify that it is the United States Capitol - the United States has instigated far more insurrections in foreign capitols throughout the cold war. Theleekycauldron (talk) 07:55, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yet, none of them are called capitols. Kindly check your information first. Walrus Ji (talk) 10:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No more pussy footing, grab em – That's not how Wikipedia works. Wikipedia is not a place for activism of any kind. See WP:NPOV. — Chrisahn (talk) 18:10, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Wot? How is putting in facts activism? NPOV does not mean Wikipedia will turn a blind eye to facts and whitewash the terms to make it more appealing to "both sides". NPOV means Wiki should follow Main stream media. --Walrus Ji (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    1. You're missing the point. No more pussy footing, grab em is incompatible with WP:NPOV. It's fine if you're an activist elsewhere, but please try to remain neutral while editing Wikipedia. 2. Yes, Wikipedia follows mainstream WP:RS. As has been pointed out numerours times in this discussion, based on lots of data, mainstream sources currently overwhelmingly use the term "Capitol riot" for the events of January 6 in headlines and articles. So per WP:COMMONNAME, the title of this article should be something like "Capitol riot", not "insurrection". — Chrisahn (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    [Meta discussion moved to User talk:Chrisahn ]--Walrus Ji (talk) 08:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I removed the discussion from my talk page. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. In reliable sources, "riot" and "attack" and even "siege" appear to be beating "insurrection". I made a table below by looking through the Google results (headlines and clicking through body text) of some perennial ones. Feel free to add on to it.
    AP Quite mixed, with common labels being "Capitol attack", "Capitol riot", and "Capitol siege".
    BBC Clear coalescence around "Capitol riots" or "Capitol riot".
    The Guardian Use of both "Capitol riot" and "Capitol attack".
    NYTimes Use of both "Capitol riot" and "Capitol attack". Article category is named "Capitol Riot Fallout".
    Reuters Quite mixed, with common labels being "Capitol attack", "Capitol riot", and "Capitol siege".
    WashPo Use of "Capitol riot".
    "Storming" and "breach" seem to be the universal terms for the actual breaking-in part of these events. Based on these results, "2021 United States Capitol riot" would be my personal suggestion for a future RM. — Goszei (talk) 05:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
    Goszei Thank you for providing WP:RS. However, your list is not complete. I know that CNN is now generally (or at least frequently) calling it an insurrection.[38][39]. Two of their first three special reports had insurrection in the title.S2021 E1 1/10/2021S2021 E3 1/16/2021. I'd like to see a more complete list--especially from those who say it should be called an insurrection. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:35, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That claim does not appear to be true: see [40], which is the same search that I applied above. As appears to be the case with every RS that I linked, CNN uses "insurrection" sometimes, but less frequently than "riot". — Goszei (talk) 07:41, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree CNN often uses the word "riot" as well, sometimes interchangeably in the same reporting, and they have used other words like "attack." I believe they originally did not use insurrection as much, but have moved in that direction as more information came in about the rioters, who helped, how much they knew, what they planned to do [e.g. kill legislators], etc. Please keep in mind, I'm basing my determination on CNN's reporting more on what I have heard from watching a number of hours of CNN each day for the last few days, rather than from Google searches. Also, I'm a little more partial to insurrection as it seems more descriptive of the facts. This was not just random mayhem--the violence was directed at elected legislators. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This comparison has excluded titles containing only "Capitol", without "US" ("US Capitol"), and is not very representative because all "at the Capitol" forms are thus excluded. If one searches for "at the Capitol" separately, he sees that insurrection fares much better. — Alalch Emis (talk) 13:06, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair point, but it then follows that "Capitol" is the most neutral search term (not "at the Capitol", or anything more specific, as that reflects cherry-picking). Using "Capitol" in the searches above, the results are virtually identical to what I listed in the table. — Goszei (talk) 04:07, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Strongly agree with Goszei that this was clearly a "riot" in common parlance. Furthermore, I would suggest changing the name of the article to "January 6, 2021 Capitol Protests" or the like, and having the riot be a subsection—right now there's nothing but 2020–21 United States election protests#January 2021. Lost in all this is the obvious fact that the riot involved a small number of bad actors in the midst of a much larger, mostly peaceful protest that involved speeches and thousands of people peacefully marching to the Capitol. Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    See Talk:2021 storming of the United States Capitol/Archive 2#Requested move 6 January 2021: "2021 United States Capitol protests → 2021 storming of the United States Capitol – The protests preceded a much more noteworthy event, which will be the focus of the bulk of this article: the storming of the Capitol by an armed mob" — Chrisahn (talk) 02:12, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose As others have stated, there is no uniform description of what happened at the Capitol as "insurrection." It has variously been referred to as a protest, a riot, a coup, sedition, insurrection, and other terms. "Storming" is a neutral description of the action that took place, without the risk of violationg NPOV by putting politically charged langauge in the title. Whether it was one or more of these things is better discussed in the lede and body of the article, which it is in sufficient detail. TempDog123 (talk) 09:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose using non-neutral / jugmental terms like "insurrection". Wikipedia is not a court to pronounce verdicts. Ghirla-трёп- 11:50, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support The main thing this event will be remembered for long into the future was the historic second impeachment of a US president. The charge was incitement of insurrection. The second biggest thing this will be remembered for is the occupation of the offices of the Speaker of the House and search for the Vice President by the mob, for which insurrection is the best descriptor. Riot may be a good genus description of the type of thing that happened, but insurrection is a more specific species. Not all riots, mobs, or attacks are conducted with the purpose of hunting down government officials acting in their official capacity. That's an insurrection. Univremonster (talk) 15:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Basing a decision on what you think the event "will be remembered for long into the future" sounds like the exact definition of WP:CRYSTALBALL. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      I stand by my original statement and disagree, for at least two reasons. First, Crystalball relates to articles, not talk. Deciding what title is most appropriate in this instance (and all similar instances) requires us to predict what terminology will be settled on in order to be descriptive. Furthermore, even if this were an article and not a talk page, Crystalball relates to "unverifiable speculation or presumptions" about "anticipated events." One need not be Nostradamus to predict that the second impeachment of a president, and the first seizure of the US capitol in over 200 years, will be remembered throughout history. An ounce of speculation mixed with a pound of truth doesn't make this ball-gazing. Univremonster (talk) 02:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per nom; "Insurrection" is better than "storming". I'm sure we'll have another round of discussion as soon as this one closes. I'm currently undecided if "riot" vs. "insurrection" is better, which I expect will be the subject of the next discussion. (Unrelated: "capitol riot" would have been a good name for a punk band up until this year.)-Ich (talk) 15:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose, I think the current title is the most accurate of all the suggestions, everything else is politcal language in either direction, as is the intention of this move. Prevelance in media is not an encyclopedic metric. Miserlou (talk) 16:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per Neutrality. The initial appearance was indeed of a disorganized mob riot, but that is now an outdated view. As more information comes out, we're learning it was partially well-organized and planned insurrection, using vandalism, violence, hostage taking, and killing as means toward the goal of overturning the legitimate election result. -- Valjean (talk) 17:56, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong support per Valjean's comment directly above mine, and Alalch Emis' excellent points. Jonmaxras (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note: User:Chrisahn seems to have taken it upon himself and is actively striking off comments that he does not like. He is neither an admin nor has any basis to do that. Accordingly I have reverted him. Others might want to keep a check on his actions on this thread. --Walrus Ji (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I had struck (as in struck) three comments that were not sustained by arguments (except "per User X"). I thought striking such comments was common practice, but I was wrong (striking is only allowed for duplicate comments by the same account, and a few other rare cases). Walrus Ji reverted these comments to their original state, which was the right thing to do. Thanks. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    [Meta discussion moved to User talk:Chrisahn ]--Walrus Ji (talk) 08:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I removed the discussion from my talk page. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:56, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - I believe there is too much disagreement about what this event should be called among reliable sources, but "riot" is used frequently above all else and is an accurate assessment of what occurred, without any other connotations. I would support "2021 United States Capitol riot" per Goszei, or keeping the current name. Spengouli (talk) 19:32, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. It was a deadly and violent mob, that hunted down members of Congress and the Vice President and had the means to kidnap and kill them, that blocked Congress from fulfilling a constitutional mandate for the transition of power, and that forced the deployment of the National Guard. —Jade Ten (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support per WP:RS, wording mentions by Ish and Valjean, and arguments by Alalch. IHateAccounts (talk) 19:46, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. I would prefer the current title, as it is more WP:NPOV. And per the frequency analyses in Chrisahn's comment, StAnselm's comment, and Goszei's comment, insurrection doesn't seem to be WP:COMMONNAME anyway. If the RM suggestion were "riot" instead, I would probably support. I would also be fine with leaving it as "storming". -- Ununseti (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per above. 71.190.95.85 (talk) 20:27, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong support per the actions in the event and the textbook definition. While many articles may not use insurrection, TV media and social media have vastly used "insurrection" to describe the events. Additionally, "storming" is too general and vague to use for the event. Storming could be used for many types of situations, whereas "insurrection" clearly identifies the situation based on the specific circumstances of the event, as well as the purpose and intent of the instigators.2601:580:4301:7730:3821:9F32:293E:68C0 (talk) 22:20, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support An insurrection is defined as "a violent uprising against an authority or government" which would make that an accurate descrption of this event.JoeyLyles (talk) 22:24, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The Storm is probably just a nickname for Stormfront. Insurrection is to "big", about 300 people entered the Capitol Building. "2021 United States Capitol riot" per Goszei and StAnselm.--217.234.65.18 (talk) 22:35, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The term "insurrection" is correctly applied to the actions of certain groups of people during this event; however, the term does not properly generalize to the whole event. Those who entered the Capitol were certainly participating in a violent riot, and are reasonably assumed to have been united in the desire to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. However, in the absence of evidence that the mob as a whole acted with the primary intent, or acted under the sole direction of those with the intent, to depose the US government or take any effective action to overturn the election, it is not strictly accurate to characterize the storming of the Capitol itself as an insurrection. The term "riot," which is used frequently in the article, encompasses both the insurrection that took place during the storming as well as the other aspects of this event that fall within the scope of this article. Eigenhector (talk) 22:57, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    3. Accurate. This was "a violent uprising against an authority or government." Remember, wikipedia does not Wikipedia:CENSOR. 4. Given the connection of "storm" to QAnon, title is not Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. See storm Casprings (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    How does point four not go against point three? You say WP doesn't censor, and then recommend changing the title anyway to appease a bunch of conspiracy nuts. IMO, you're giving a WP:FRINGE belief WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 11:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - Many RS have used the term "insurrection," along with members of Congress of both parties. The "storming" wording is awkward and does not fully capture the nature of the events. PrimaPrime (talk) 00:07, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support —Ooligan (talk) 00:50, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Current title is fine and NPOV. Others have marshalled sufficient evidence that "insurrection" is not in fact so widely used as to qualify as a "name" for common name purposes. It is narrower and definitely worse as a description than the current title. Srnec (talk) 01:16, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The rule of thumb that should be followed here in determining the name of an article is which, of the suggested names, is the simpler and the less convoluted of the names suggested. The current title, in my view, meets that condition. Perhaps, though, a Redirect can still be used under the alternate name here suggested, directing its reader to this article. BTW: The word "insurrection" means simply "rebellion," and usually implies rebellion against a state or government. Therefore, having this word used in connection to a specific place (e.g. at the US Capitol) seems a bit awkward in its usage. Davidbena (talk) 01:43, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd like reply to your last point: That is the reason why "Insurrection at X" is better than "X insurrection. The former underlines that it's indeed an insurrection against the government, that happened in one very distinct place, and "X insurrection" confers a moer vague relationship between the two parts of the name and doesn't get this point across so well. But "X insurrection" is still okay. Alalch Emis (talk) 04:54, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I prefer "United States Capitol insurrection" to the long-winded versions per Muboshgu. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC) [revised 07:03, 20 January 2021 (UTC)][reply]
    • comment: Why is the initial request so verbose? I didn't read all of that. Alalch Emis appears to be a new editor (in terms of edit counts). I would advise him/her to look at other move requests. It may be too late bring this one down to size. --David Tornheim (talk) 07:52, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: The final paragraph of the lead section states that the events have been described as various things, including insurrection. However, the impeachment of Trump for "incitement of insurrection" implies that the government has recognized the events as an insurrection, so I don't really know. I suggest maybe "2020 occupation of the United States Capitol"? ToQ100gou! ToQ100gou! Shupatsu Shinkou! (the chitter-chatter) 08:34, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Support: The word "storming" is inaccurate for this event, because it does not fully capture its scope. The event's purpose was not merely the unauthorized entry into the Capitol, but to pressure members of Congress into overturning the 2020 election results [43], and potentially to harm Vice President Pence and non-complying members of Congress [44]. The prefix "2021" in the article title also implies this event either has happened before (it hasn't) or will happen again (which no one can predict). I strongly support the move. Radio Adept (talk) 09:53, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutral with a hat tip to Eigenhector. There is a very important point most people are not addressing at all. The fact of the matter is, neither "storming" nor "insurrection" fully encompasses the entirety of what occurred. There were protests outside leading up to the event, such as the one Alex Jones led, or the group Trump told to "fight like hell." While several of those people did storm, insurrect, riot, loot, vandalize, trespass, etc., not all did. This is a major distinction here, which if we're not careful could veer into libelous territory from those involved. I participated in a similar (albeit much more microcosmic) version of this debate earlier, over who to include as a "participant" in the event (called a "storming" by the article both then and now) in the template, with the conclusion being that people who were reported as being present but not within the Capitol complex itself, like Jones or Justin Hill, can not be labeled as participants in a "storming." The same would still hold true for an "insurrection." As the title stands, and as it would stand even if this move is granted, the article is not allowed to fully address the entirety of the event beyond a "storming" or "insurrection," because it will become pigeonholed by the title itself. A better title is needed, though, to be clear, I'm not sure that what that title would be. As for the current debate—between "storming" or "insurrection"—I am indifferent, but would like to vocalize a nuanced viewpoint. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Oppose: Looking at Google search results, Attack comes back with the highest at 119 million [45], Riot comes back with 107 million [46], Insurrection with 55 million [47], and Storming with 24 million [48] -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 12:15, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This comment is evidence about "insurrection" having become a common name. How could such a less-used word have so many results, if it wasn't becoming very widely adopted in recent weeks. Naturally, "attack" as generic term will always yield more results, most of which are completely irrelevant, while "riot" is somewhere in the middle, but it should be noted that while there were past riots at the Capitol, there weren't past insurrections, so this will inflate the results in favor of "riot" by including many irrelevant results. — Alalch Emis (talk) 18:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose While many of the Trump supporters may have desired insurrection, not all of them did. "Storming" is the larger term that includes both the insurrection element and the general mayhem, rioting and clueless trespassing. NotBartEhrman (talk) 15:23, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I respond to your concern that not all Trump supporters desired insurrection in my comment below in reply to Rich Farmbrough. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Isn't really a major storming when most of the protestors were outside and only a select few were actually inside, sure it was rather chaotic at its peak but the majority was alright with most of the deaths being accidental rather than intentionally, + shouldnt this be also considered for the BLM Riot in D.C in May? Storming is a more appropriate title anyways. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 16:08, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose at least at this time. Others have made it clear with their detailed and very clear analyses that there is no overarchingly common name at this point. As such, we should remain at the most neutral title possible, of which either "storming", "riot", or "attack" would qualify, until such time if insurrection becomes the clear common name. I will note that a majority of support votes here are based more in personal opinion (and/or original research) than in policy or analysis of common-ness of the names. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 16:45, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Neutral for now. There isn't a common name at this point. It was a storming and using that as the title is fine. However, due to recent developments regarding many of the participaints using zip ties, a noose, etc., it's safe to say that this event was much more than a storming. It was a failed coup d'etat. Many reliable sources have described it as such. cookie monster (2020) 755 17:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The current title is the best option. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Any insurrection would be a subset of the storming, just as the storming is a subset of the protests. It would be extremely hard to write about at the moment, and would require us to jettison large parts of the article, under BLP, if nothing else. All the best: Rich Farmbrough 23:31, 19 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
    Rich Farmbrough You and others make a valid point that not all of the protesters wanted an insurrection. It's possible that more than half of the thousands of people who were instructed to "march to the Capitol" did nothing (knowingly) that was illegal. A large portion may not have gone past the breached security line, and of those who did, many in the back may not have been aware they were passing a police line, because those in the front had pushed aside the fence and the police had retreated.
    Even so, my belief is that the coverage (at least on CNN) is not primarily about the non-violent protesters who followed and/or reasonably believed they were lawfully exercising their First Amendment rights. A 10,000 person protest in D.C. gets only so much coverage. And even the Million Man March did not require 25,000 reservists to defend the capitol from another coup attempt. The coverage I have seen is devoted primarily to the huge breach of security, the real danger to the lawmakers, the planning, the violence, the insiders who gave tours, etc. In other words, the bulk of the coverage is about the people who knowingly tried to stop the certification of the vote, and wanted to overturn the election and who wanted to kill Pence and other lawmakers. These are the insurrectionists.
    One solution to your valid concern of improperly suggesting all protesters backed backed an insurrection is to bifurcate the insurrection aspect from the rest of the rally that was non-violent. However, I think that would be very messy, so I'm not inclined to support that unless someone could make a clear break that makes sense.
    So, although, I think your concern is valid, I still think the news aspect of this is the threat to U.S. democracy by those who wanted to thwart and/or kill the legislators who refused to back Trump. --David Tornheim (talk) 06:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "Insurrection" is more common than "storming". Attack is not a real contender because it fails the specificity standard of WP:DESCRIPTOR.— Alalch Emis (talk) 20:05, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: Mark Milley, chairman of Joint Chiefs: “There was some indication that an unknown number of veterans associated with the insurrection.”[49] soibangla (talk) 20:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. Calling it an "insurrection" is laughable, and blatantly violates WP:NPOV. If this was an "insurrection", then so is every protest that takes place in defiance of government orders. "Storming" is also a poor choice. This was a riot. The rioting erupted after but was distinct from the rally and protest march, which perhaps should be a separate article. If there's to be article titled "storming" then all the stuff about Trump, what he said, etc. must be taken out of the lead and referred to only as background information. Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:02, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, "2021 riot at the United States Capitol" is a much better choice". Why? The definition says so; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/riot. 174.74.236.174 (talk) 23:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    No it isn't. But feel free to provide some evidence to make me change my mind. StAnselm (talk) 03:32, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support: change from ‘Storming’ (and riot). As I said before, “A”, if not “the” mainstream view is that it was a coup attempt. Instead the word “coup” has been entirely whitewashed from the first half of the article, where it is called a mere riot, and in the title, where it’s just a Storming. Official and OS intelligence is coming out indicating that this was far from an entirely disorganized event such that its nigh obvious. People don’t show up to take part in a mere riot with dozens of handcuffs (other than law enforcement) or to a protest loaded down with offensive military gear such as batons.
    C’mon, people. Again: It really is applicable here (even if graphics aren’t the only focus of the current censorship). --50.201.195.170 (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly Oppose: Storming is a more broader, and a more neutral term, that has been used by most media outlets, more so than it being called an insurrection. 02:19, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
    • Strong support per the actions in the event and the textbook definition of «insurrection». In addition to all the reliable news sources calling it so, even if they didn't do so at the start, as more and more information is being dug up. Calling it anything else is in my opinion simply whitewashing it for those that incited to and participated in this horrific event. Hekseuret (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment (by nominator) American Political Science Association called the event Insurrection at the US Capitol on Jan. 7; I just found it out. — Alalch Emis 03:41, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And "Goals: Disrupt ... Electoral College vote count ..., Seize ... certificates ..., Pressure Congress and Vice President ... to overturn election of Joe Biden; Methods: assault, shootings, arson, tactics of terrorism (intimidation, intention to take hostages, kidnap and execute)" and dead people is not what makes it notable – it's the trespass. Sorry, don't want to be that guy, but I just had to — Alalch Emis 04:29, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose, as an NPOV issue, 'storming' provides the most absolutely neutral position which doesn't hinder a reader from understanding the nature of the events themselves. Inconsistent usage of the term 'insurrection' remains in mainstream and reliable sources including wire services like AP, Reuters, where the term may have been used in editorial/feature/opinion pieces, but less readily in news articles which are from a more neutral POV (Wikipedia NPOV means we should be aligning with these articles, not opinion pieces on the same site). Donkeypeep (talk) 04:01, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. "Storm" is a more literal, appropriate, and objective description of what occurred. "Insurrection" implies a broader movement or uprising of which the storming may have been a symptom, but is not an appropriate title for the description of that day's events 91.113.97.105 (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. I support a name that substitutes insurrection rather than storming, but I think the new name should include the year 2021 to make it distinct from the [Wilmington insurrection of 1898]. It would also make sense to include the word 'republican' in the title to counter the false claims on Fox news that these were 'Democrat imposters' so "Republican Insurrection at the United States Capitol 2021" Paraphrased (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. "Storming" is the term being used by far right media trying to romanticized the event and gain support for the participants. Wikipedia should pick some neutral title.Gouncbeatduke (talk) 12:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Suggestion for future naming discussion; 2021 Domestic Attack on the United States Capitol [50] -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. 1. If we our using the defintions term for intersection then basicly all riots are considered Insurrection, CHAZ was far more of an attempt to rebel against the goverment then this. 2. Events far worse then this are considered protests in the eyes of wikipedia for example in the 2020 Guatemalan protests the cogress of Guatemala was set on fire.3 The term riot is used far more often then insurrection in the media.--Garmin21 (talk) 16:44, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strongly support Many people here are suggesting that insurrection is just the same as storming/a riot, except more significant, and as such there is little purpose to making the change. However, the term 'insurrection' specifically carries connotations of planning and intended damage, as opposed to simply an otherwise peaceful protest which happened to turn violent. It is common consensus, as is evident by the impeachment proceedings against President Trump, that this event was very much premeditated, and the name should not imply otherwise. Furthermore, if the case is that the new name is 'no better' than the old one, surely the objective facts about it (as listed in addenda above) such as being shorter and more memorable make it a superior title? Also, some people suggest that we should go with the more general term (i.e. 'Storming') in cases of disagreement, however, Wikipedia generally tends to prefer more specific info over less specific. Furthermore, what makes this notable (as opposed to other Washington DC riots, which often have a very similar purpose of achieving the attention of lawmakers/congresspeople) is the history behind it and the aspect of planning, involvement of Trump, and the aftermath which followed - not necessarily the night itself. + agreeing with all of the above points Gkerecs (talk) 18:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gkerecs: As to how planned the storming was, that is still under active investigation — I think that's a quite significant to whether this becomes an 'insurrection' as opposed to just a riot. It's difficult to establish with certainty as to how organised the crowd was and how significant the crowd attempting to do damage was. There are obviously photos going around and reports of some rioters coming in with restraints and other items which would escalate this above a riot. But mainstream and regarded sources still haven't established how prevalent this was. We should only move if mass co-ordination and planning has been established by published sources, which it hasn't. Trump's motive when making his incendiary remarks, is also something which should be relevant to whether they were intended to incite a successful insurrection. Donkeypeep (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak oppose - The most compelling reason for me to support is "Insurrection" in the title of charges levied against Trump by the House. Both sides of the argument here cite WP:COMMONNAME though. My stance is a weak oppose as it appears that more recent sources are using "storming" rather than "Insurrection" out of an abundence of caution. Other editors also cited policy arguments here but failed to explain how the policy applies to x where (such as WP:NPOV). - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:20, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Knowledgekid87: Please take a look at the NPoV rationale in my replies, particularly this one: (Search for this term:) @Czello If the words; also in the opening post (how it was used by authoritative sources days before the articles of impeachment, and a controversy surrounding this term hasn't been reported in reliable sources), how it was used by politicians on both sides on the spectrum, and how "insurrection" is not known to be a strong word. — Alalch Emis 22:21, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment It looks that IPs and SPA are joining the discussion of this RM, which it more distruptive since it involves view from alt-right users against more established users. But i neutral to taking position about moving the article. 180.242.50.227 (talk) 21:33, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support - "Insurrection" is more used in news after the event and 2021 is not needed considering there hasn't been other event known by that name (other incidents in the US Capitol have different common names so the year is not needed). --B1mbo (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose – I feel the current title is fine. Storming is a broader term. Not all of the protesters wanted an insurrection, in the sense of taking control of the legislature by violence. Kind Tennis Fan (talk) 04:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weak oppose - at least for now. It is more in line with how both the media and public are currently referring to the event, but the article title as it is now is fine. "Insurrection" is a very strong word to what amounted to a bunch of angry rednecks breaking into a building. Compare it to an actual insurrection like the 80s JVP insurrection which left over 60,000 dead. If a change were to be made I'd prefer something along the lines of like 2021 [riots/insurrection] of the United States Capitol or simply 2021 United States Capitol conflict. I also agree with Anameofmyveryown's idea to wait a few months and see, such events rarely have a decided name this soon after they happen. Maybe in a few months time it'll be considered an attempted coup instead. 109.78.70.187 (talk) 05:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Vast Support: The highest rank of evidence/source is the U.S. House of Representatives impeached him for "incitement of insurrection" with 232/197 votes.... other sources are futile. Please stop these nonsense and change it.

      "Insurrection at the United States Capitol" sounds proper, formal, and official.

      "storming" sounds very immature and I keep thinking about a thunderstorm arriving there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.178.127.90 (talk) 06:38, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    — 99.178.127.90 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 

          ....I made no other account, Emis and I are different people.... Admins can check the IP and such.... whoever added that, shame on you.
    
      The House evidence is accurate.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.178.127.90 (talk) 04:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose (Strongly) Not even the impeachment accuses Trump as having planned insurrection, and by implication that he did not. So who did? Does that reduce to 'by person or persons unkown'? Which in this context is absurd. Given hard information available on the internet, it would be surprising if the FBI has not so far got enough evidence to pin it on some conspiring insurrectionist plotters, and more evidence than Comey had for the discredited FISA applications. Qexigator (talk) 08:41, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Qexigator: You replied to the user above, but didn't indent your post accordingly. The post you replied to does not represent the reasoning behind this RM. Your "oppose" therefore lacks substance, because it doesn't include anything that really pertains to the proposal, and you didn't comment on the actual rationale for the move. The proposal is expressly not based on Trump having planned the insurrection. The proposed name does not include "Trump". — Alalch Emis 17:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe most taking part in this discussion will be able to see that Alalch Emis's comment, perhaps inadvertently, misses the point, viz., if there is no person or persons insurrecting, there is no insurrection. There was indisputably a riot within the Capitol following what is reasonably called a 'storming', for want of any more suitable word, and it is now public knowledge (if not earlier) that at least some who were active in the storming and riot had gone there with criminal intent, before the Trump supporters had gathered at the Ellipse for their rally. Qexigator (talk) 17:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    How can there be no person insurrecting if this very article uses "insurrectionist" in relation to various actions. If there was no person insurrecting then who was this person who had the goal to: Disrupt ... vote count ..., Seize ... the certificates ..., Pressure ... to overturn the election. What you're saying stands in stark contrast to what's contained in this very article. Did you even read it? — Alalch Emis 19:02, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, good question, given the utterances of politicians quoted in second sixth paragraph. May be the article could be improved in that respect, but editors are inclined to rely on what are deemed to be RS, and sometimes let political statements appear in Wikivoice. All the same, the riotous storming as such was not an insurrection as compared with events historically so described, such as the rebellion of the confederated colonies against the British Crown or others in List of revolutions and rebellions. Qexigator (talk) 19:37, 22 January 2021 (UTC) correction Qexigator (talk) 12:52, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Check out Whiskey Insurrection. Tax rebellion, 3-4 killed. The insurrection at the Capitol is a more severe event that strikes at the foundations of the constitutional order. — Alalch Emis 19:53, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    From tea tax to whiskey tax. Of course, numbers alone are not determinative, and criteria for the 'severity' of such events are debatable. It may be notable that so far 'RS' have said little or nothing about subversion -- may be too scary for the political leaderships, and too closely associated with McCarthyism and the like. Perhaps we can leave it there? Qexigator (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Weakly Oppose It would not surprise me if there will be a standard name for it formed off wikipedia that we should copy and I would rather not have the article be moved a bunch of times, as such I do not fully agree with "Enough days have passed". That said, I do think 'Insurrection at the United States Capitol' is a better name for it than the current one (but I suspect using the word "riot" would be better, as others have more confidently asserted). Most Humble and Obedient Servant (talk) 11:46, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Strongly Wikipedia is supposed to be unbiased. We're supposed to be a tertiary resource of facts gathered from the most unbiased secondary resources available. Do we really think we can meet this ideal by polling the blatantly pro-Trump or anti-Trump editors in this forum, or randomly in a Google search? Leave your politics at home. Every secondary resource that actually talked to the Trump supporters in question reported that they said their motivation was a demonstration, and that they were demonstrators. Ascribing any stronger or weaker names to their motivations, even "storming," puts a political spin on it. Shame on those who are using Wikipedia as a soapbox. Nearly every demonstrator there was demonstrating their support of a lawful United States government, and expressing their concern about what they believed to be vote fraud. Every large demonstration is infiltrated with agent provocateurs and people trying to make the movement look bad, but an unbiased resource treats that tiny percentage as a side note, and certainly does not name the entire event after them. Jack Autosafe (talk) 21:40, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    One should understand WP:FALSEBALANCE in situations like this. — Alalch Emis 23:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I want to assume good faith here, but let's be honest, this user account User:Alalch Emis who initiated this RM discussion was only created on January 7, 2021 and yet it's user has extensive knowledge of Wikipedia editing procedures and policies. Can the owner of this account please state if they have other accounts on Wikipedia as required by WP:SOCK or divulge if there exists some WP:COI that requires they use a unique account for this discussion. I think it needs addressing. Octoberwoodland (talk) 00:03, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Meta issue statement (nominator) The meta issue raised by Octoberwoodland has been dealt with to some extent here. Based on the procedural guidance given:

    you're not obliged to answer

    — Sdkb
    – and since I am opposed to this esteemed user's question on moral and philosophical grounds, I have decided to treat this allegation of COI and sockpuppetry with silence. — Alalch Emis 03:27, 23 January 2021 (UTC) (updated with quote)[reply]
    Logically, by this argument we should wait until he is found guilty. StAnselm (talk) 06:27, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not about Trump's guilt, it's about their choice of word for what happened. O.J. Simpson was not convicted of murder, yet we still refer to what happened as murder because we know it's real. Either way, the actual proposal does not rest on this argument. — Alalch Emis 07:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That's not at all relevant. The victims were certainly murdered - we are just not certain it was Simpson who did it. StAnselm (talk) 15:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose The renaming is not supported by the vast majority of quality reliable sources, particularly now that the dust has settled and we are removed from knee-jerk WP:RECENTISM. Sources quoting politicians saying 'insurrection' don't count. Strong political opinion in the commentary here coming from either direction doesn't count. 'Storming' or 'riots' is currently supported by RS. Pick one of those until anything changes in the reporting. RandomGnome (talk) 06:04, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    The storming was not a coup

    In order for this event to have been a coup, it would require military or government personnel to invade the legislature in order to incite terror and declare a new government. Most of these protestors and rioters were your average Joes, they were civilians and not even soldiers or politicians, they obviously didn't intend to create a government based on mob rule, they just wanted to ensure that the voting was halted. Even if they had weapons, they couldn't possibly declare their own government because they didn't have the military or political authority to do so. If the military collaborated with the protesters, which they didn't, then it would make more sense to call it a coup, but until then, it should only be called a revolution as it pressured a change in government but didn't actually enforce a change in government. Epitome of Creativity (talk) 02:43, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The President is not “an average Joe” (no pun intended about the President Elect) PTSDSufferer (talk) 05:12, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Epitome of Creativity, this is an ongoing discussion per many sections above. It's not in any way cut and dry. However it's very clear that certain sources (as listed above at the top section) do describe this as an attempted coup. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 05:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Coups can be carried out by paramilitary groups, and involvement in the modern US militia movement likely qualifies as paramilitary. Furthermore, it has been reported that there were a number of insurgents who were military or law enforcement who flashed IDs to try and get past the police line. Regardless of those facts, I agree with the previous respondents: the POTUS encouraged the attack, which is why media outlets have described it as a coup attempt. The fact Trump was not personally there doesn't change his role. As this is studied in more detail by political scientists and commentators perhaps the eventual discussion on the page should reflect varying academic viewpoints of whether or not this really constitutes a coup, but - respectfully - I don't think it is fair to outright say it was not an attempted coup. Connorlong90 (talk) 01:41, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    In Wikipedia, we use reliable sources or WP:RS. Early on, there were some mentions of a coup in RS but certainly not a majority of them. As a week or two have passed, RS have stopped referring it as a coup. RS such as CNN, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, BBC, etc. Therefore, the correct Wikipedia would be to not call it a coup. This should not be politicized such that if you like Trump you say it is not a coup or if you hate Trump you say it is a coup. No, Wikipedia shouldn't work like that. Vowvo (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The Pentagon lied. Charles Flynn was involved in the Capitol riot response, it's been revealed! He is the brother of Trump's ex-national security adviser Michael Flynn, a figure in the QAnon conspiracy and in the weeks before the riot spoke at rallies about voter fraud in support of Trump. The Army denied Charles Flynn involvement for days but on 20 January Charles Flynn said he was on the 6 January call among officials about deploying troops to help. The Army has not clarified why they lied for days that Flynn was not involved.
    * Army falsely denied Flynn’s brother was involved in key part of military response to Capitol riot → "The Army’s initial denial of Flynn’s participation in the critical Jan. 6 meeting, despite multiple inquiries on the matter, comes as lawmakers demand transparency from the Defense Department in the aftermath of one of Washington’s gravest national security failures, which left one police officer and four rioters dead, the Capitol desecrated and the lives of Vice President Mike Pence and members of Congress endangered."
    * WaPo: Meeting On Military Response To Trump Riot Included Flynn's Brother | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC
    Refusing to mobilized the national guard was participation in the coup d’etat. Those who allowed Charles Flynn to keep his post during December and January should be held accountable. --217.234.68.100 (talk) 03:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Is this site concerned with fact or opinion? Is the author concerned with fact or opinion? In reality the word insurrection should only be used for those that stormed the Capitol that belong or serve alliance to Antifa and or BLM. They had stake in the game and opinion piece requires mention.

    Because no factual evidence of conspiracy has been formally investigated, the root cause of this incident has no truth to attach to it. Baseless opinions are nothing more and needs to be announced at the begging of the written opinion. Visto Dalla Florida (talk) 13:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    lets see some RS saying ANTFA (which is not an organization) or BLM were involved.Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Antifa or BLM???? Are YOU concerned with fact Visto Dalla Florida? SecretName101 (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    "it would require military or government personnel" WRONG. Citizen-led coups and coup attempts take place. The Wilmington insurrection of 1898 (also known as a the Wilmington coup of 1898) was citizen-led. If I successfully overthrew Uruguay's government, pretty sure nobody would say "Well, he's not a military or government personnel, so I guess it's not a coup". SecretName101 (talk) 20:28, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I would. That would be an insurrection or revolution, not a coup. Notice that the title of the article you link to as an example calls it an insurrection, not a coup. --Khajidha (talk) 01:30, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, you are wrong. Per coup on Wikipedia "A coup or coup d'état is the removal of an existing government from power, usually through violent means. Typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a political faction, the military, or a dictator." There are various kinds of coups, such as civil society coups, that are not involving military or government figures. SecretName101 (talk) 19:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I am in agreement with SecretName101 that a coup does not require military personnel. I still would not call this event a coup or attempted coup on the basis that the rioters where not attempting to seize power or remove the existing government. They were attempting to retain power by disrupting legislative proceedings to keep the existing government. JaredHWood💬 19:57, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    So it’s a self-coup then. Saturdayopen (talk) 20:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    An attempted self-coup perhaps? ~Anachronist (talk) 20:31, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. Meaning that if you’re going have a list of coup and coup attempts, you should probably add this as well. Saturdayopen (talk) 20:34, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Riot or Mostly Peaceful protest?

    Mincing words and using words as weapons sure has plagued this country. If Portland and Minneapolis are being wielded as Mostly Peaceful Protests then the equal treatment of this moment in time must be awarded. The only way to change this meaning is to literally go back in time and designate all Antifa and BLM riots as riots. It’s time we start providing equal treatment under the law. Visto Dalla Florida (talk) 13:57, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia only goes with what the reliable sources say on a subject. This is not the place to right great wrongs or publish our own analysis of subjects. --Equivamp - talk 14:00, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Read wp:legal, also (as far as I know) no law required us to treat different demonstrations eqauly. Moreover (as said above) we go with RS.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    To be clear, the subject of this article is the attack on the Capitol. Most of the criminal acts that have occurred during BLM protests are not independently notable, while in this case the Capital storming is much more notable than the adjacent protest. VQuakr (talk) 19:03, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Equal Protection Clause applies only to U.S. legal matters, not to some website operated by a non-profit.--WaltCip-(talk) 21:21, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Atop the previous suggestions, I recommend you read this. DÅRTHBØTTØ (T•C) 22:19, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Visto Dalla Florida: you're entirely correct. There's a big problem with this article conflating two things: protests and trespassing in the Capitol—both of which were mostly peaceful, but the latter of which included rioting. There were thousands upon thousands of people in DC for speeches and marches, which took place peacefully. Then there was a relatively small riot—the DOJ estimates that 800 people entered the Capitol, with the vast majority of those peacefully "walking in" and committing no crime other than trespassing.[51] Some 135 of those c. 800 have been charged thus far, with only 7 involving weapons charges. There's no evidence that anyone brought a firearm into the Capitol, and there are only three people charged with having a weapon in the building: one baton, one pepper-spray (apparently not his), and one with a baseball bat. An additional four were charged for possessing a weapon while on the grounds: one handgun, one baton, one bat, and one Taser (apparently not his).[52] This article depicts something totally different than what actually took place, and it's clearly for political reasons.
    As you point out, the disparity in article coverage is shocking—indeed, it's past the point of parody:
    • 2021 storming of the United States Capitol has "methods" of: rioting, vandalism, looting, assault, shootings, arson, tactics of terrorism (intimidation, intention to take hostages, kidnap and execute).
    • George Floyd protests has "methods" of: protests, demonstrations, civil disobedience, civil resistance, online activism, strike action, riots
    How a Wikipedian of any integrity can not take issue with that is beyond my comprehension. Arson, looting, and vandalism are notable features of the hours-long Capitol riot—but didn't take place during last summer's months of rioting? Wikipedia is totally broken when it comes to current events, infected with a bias so strong and overwhelming that it no longer can credibly call itself an encyclopedia. Look no further than the response to your pointing out there is grossly inconsistent treatment of similar events in articles—not one so far has shown the slightest interest in the actual issue you raised. People who care about this project need to put their foot down. Elle Kpyros (talk) 23:37, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    "Men with plastic handcuffs" appears incorrect; weak citation(s) for "11 Molotov cocktails and assault rifle"

    Other than law enforcement, the only people I see documented to be carrying "plastic handcuffs" are a man and his mother—who found them abandoned inside the Capitol, presumably by police, who were photographed employing them.[53][54] There's certainly no suggestion the man and his mom broke into the Capitol with a plan to "take hostages" or "kidnap" anyone. The references to them are pure hyperbole and far from NPOV—and must be removed, or at the very least, made accurate and NPOV. Ditto for the man supposedly arrested for 11 Molotov cocktails and an assault rifle. The only sources cited seem to reference and re-echo a single tweet claiming that Michael Sherwin, the acting US attorney, said this. I can find no confirmation or follow-up, which seems odd given this would be the most heavily armed person arrested, by a long shot. This article is far, far too breathless and it's proving to be embarrassingly POV and wildly hyperbolic. Elle Kpyros (talk) 01:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • There were more than that - i.e. Rendall Brock Jr. "A retired Air Force officer who was part of the mob that stormed the U.S. Capitol last week carried plastic zip-tie handcuffs because he intended “to take hostages,” a prosecutor said in a Texas court on Thursday." [55] [56]. Black Kite (talk) 01:42, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Black Kite: I so appreciate that! And I see that Brock, like Munchel, allegedly found the cuffs inside the Capitol—if it's worth mentioning the cuffs, we ought to include that. It casts doubt on the idea that either was there with a plan to take hostages—making the Wikivoice "possibly with the intention of using them to take hostages" pure supposition and something that must be excised. For what it's worth, the FBI affidavit for Munchel includes several photos of him without flexcuffs prior to the one in which he holds them. Neither have been charged with any crime in connection to the flexcuffs or what are described as "an item in a holster on [Munchel's] right hip" (which there is reason to suspect may have been a Taser). All documents are available online.[57] Thanks again! Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Black Kite: Just a drive-by comment here: Claims of a prosecutor are not considered neutral. These claims should not appear in wikivoice. Mcfnord (talk) 01:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Elle Kpyros, here's follow-up on the Molotov guy: [58]. His name was mentioned in one of the refs, so I just Googled him and got a more recent source. David O. Johnson (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @David O. Johnson: I very much appreciate the update! It seems the weapons were found in the truck in which he was living, not on Capitol grounds. He was not charged for being on Capitol grounds,[59] and I've seen no evidence that he was part of or intended to be part of any riot—have you? Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @NorthBySouthBaranof: thanks, but I'm aware of no source cited for claims there was an "armed person" carrying flexicuffs "into" (as opposed to "in") the House Chamber, or of "armed and armored men carrying plastic handcuffs"—other than what appears to be a wildly hyperbolic Slate article. From what I've read, according to an FBI affidavit, one of the two men was carrying flexicuffs (and possibly a Taser, although he was arrested later in his hotel and hasn't been charged with any weapons violation). I see one single man has been charged for having a pistol on Capitol grounds—he was arrested at the Visitor Center and I'm unaware of any suggestion he was ever in the Capitol building at all, let alone with a weapon.[60]
    Incidentally, an Alabaman man was charged with possessing firearms and Molotov cocktails in the truck he was living in, parked in front of the RNC, with no suggestion or evidence he was ever on Capitol grounds. He happened to be arrested "during the riot" and not far from it—because while looking for bombs, police saw a firearm in the truck, then waited for him to return to it and arrested him. The information in the article is all based on breathless reports from the hours after the riot, and every one is inaccurate. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the article, since as far as anyone knows, he had nothing at all to do with the "Storming of the US Capitol" or any of the events that led up to it.
    To clarify, according to the DOJ page on individuals charged thus far, there have been a total of seven (7) people "armed" or possessing "weapons" on the Capitol Grounds (i.e., "storming the Capitol")—that's far less than one percent of the people in the building, and a minuscule fraction of those on the grounds. I've broken it down between those in the building and on the grounds—while there may well be no legal distinction, it appears to be relevant to our article. On a broader note, there is a real problem with the article distinguishing between those at the broader rally/marches/protests; those who were on the Capitol grounds; the c. 800 who were inside the Capitol building; and the few ever in any of the legislative chambers.
    On the Capitol grounds, with no indication or evidence they were in the Capitol building, four (4) in total were charged with possessing weapons:
    • 1 charged with a firearm
    • 1 charged with using a Taser on Capitol grounds ("handed to him" per FBI)
    • 1 charged with a baton
    • 1 charged with a baseball bat
    With evidence they were in the Capitol building, but no evidence they were in any legislative chamber, three (3) in total have been charged with possessing weapons:
    • 1 charged with a baton
    • 1 charged with a baseball bat
    • 1 charged with pepper spray ("handed to him" per FBI)
    As far as I can tell, there is no evidence whatsoever of any rioter with a firearm inside the Capitol building. There is (IMHO quite good) reason to suspect that one person, who was also photographed holding flexcuffs, may have had a Taser in the building—but he hasn't been charged with it and it seems extraordinarily unlikely that he ever will be. It's my strong opinion that the article needs to be clarified to reflect the above—in places it suggests otherwise, with "armed and armored men carrying plastic handcuffs" and "[s]ome individuals came heavily armed" being especially egregious. I understand that the above is to a large degree WP:OR and I'm not suggesting adding it to the article—at the same time, we should never cite supposedly "reliable sources" if they contradict the best available information. And I stand behind my assertion that the article is both full of hyperbole and fails NPOV—reading it, one would think the Capitol was overrun by a mob of armed men, which is patently untrue. Indeed, it's clear now that the large majority of the c. 800 people "walked in" peacefully and committed no other crime than trespassing.[61] Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:46, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion at Talk:2021 United States capitol protests § Requested move 20 January 2021

     You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:2021 United States capitol protests § Requested move 20 January 2021. Mt.FijiBoiz (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2021 (UTC)Template:Z48[reply]

    Refs in lead and 'Prior intelligence' section (Oath Keepers)

    Given that the Oath Keepers are mentioned in the section headed 'Prior intelligence and concerns of violence', and there fully referenced, expanding on the few words in the first paragraph of the lead, Some rioters had earlier planned aggressive action, is it necessary to repeat the references in the lead? Qexigator (talk) 19:48, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Edits relevant to a discussion about this are

    • as edited by Soibangla (talk | contribs) at 19:58, 23 January 2021 (→‎top: once again, and hopefully for the last time, this most definitely belongs in the lead because it indicates a conspiracy by a paramilitary group to invade the Capitol, and I can understand that some would like to whitewash that they allegedly said "All members are in the tunnels under capital seal them in. Turn on gas.").[62]
    • as edited by Qexigator (talk | contribs) at 23:31, 22 January 2021 (necessary link in the abbreviated sequence of events [63]
    • as edited by Qexigator (talk | contribs) at 17:58, 23 January 2021 (better placed here as necessary link in the abbreviated sequence of events, and rmv repeat to later section (discuss at Talk if you propose otherwise)).[64]
    • as edited by Qexigator (talk | contribs) at 19:48, 23 January 2021 (concise mention of preplanned aggression placed in first paragraph, as necessary narrative link in the abbreviated sequence of events described there, expanded in 'Prior intelligence' section (if you still think it a problem do not merely undo but discuss at Talk)[65]

    Qexigator (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I support the refs in the lead if they will prevent editors from removing the vital sentence from the lead for any specious reason, including any assertion that it's not supported by citations. soibangla (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Other edits

    • as edited by Soibangla at 19:58, 23 January 2021 (??top: once again, and hopefully for the last time, this most definitely belongs in the lead because it indicates a conspiracy by a paramilitary group to invade the Capitol, and I can understand that some would like to whitewash that they allegedly said "All members are in the tunnels under capital seal them in. Turn on gas.").[66]
    • as edited by Y2kcrazyjoker4 at 07:08, 24 January 2021 (this info just appears grafted onto the existing sentence and its awkward)[67]

    Qexigator (talk) 16:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • as edited by Y2kcrazyjoker4 (talk | contribs) at 02:08, 23 January 2021 (Rm info repeated later on in lead with easter egg piped link and repeat wikilink)[[68]]
    • as edited by Y2kcrazyjoker4 at 13:31, 22 January 2021 (Not the place to add this)[69]
    • as edited by Qexigator at 10:16, 22 January 2021 (Oath Keepers violent intent)[70]
    • as edited by Y2kcrazyjoker4 at 02:09, 19 January 2021 (copyedit and trim lead)[71]
    • Talk:Clarify sections "Planning of the storming" and "Rioting in the Capitol building"[72]

    Qexigator (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Requested move 23 January 2021

    2021 storming of the United States Capitol → 2021 United States Capitol riot – Improved title per WP:NCE and WP:COMMONNAME

    • WP:NCE — "2021 United States Capitol riot" is a "when", "where" and "what" title
    • WP:COMMONNAME — Of the most common descriptors (protest, storming, riot, attack, insurrection) riot is overwhelmingly the riot and attack are names that are most commonly used.
    JaredHWood💬 21:22, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    To the RM closer: Please consider the #Survey of proposed titles for proposed and discussed titles for the article, along with the discussion when determining consensus. JaredHWood💬 02:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Discussion (requested move 23 January 2021)

    It's neither too early or too late, this is the ideal time to improve on the current title. — Alalch Emis 02:18, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Czello: The information given by Chrisahn is what I based my assertion on. I would add these counts of occurrences in the article itself.
      • riot: 245 mentions with "capitol riot" 69 times
      • storm: 105 mentions with "storming of the capitol"(and derivations) 32 times
      • attack: 58 mentions with "capitol attack" 11 times
    The exact search term "Capitol riot" is the most common name for the January 6th event at the US Capitol. JaredHWood💬 00:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Another approach yields basically the same results: Set region to US and language to English in a search for "capitol" on Bing news search or Google news search and count the terms used for the event in the headlines of the first 50 search results: "Capitol riot(s)": 70-80%; "Capitol attack": 20-25%; others (e.g. "Capitol insurrection"): less than 5% each. (I didn't count terms for perpetrators, but "Capitol rioters" is clearly most common.) — Chrisahn (talk) 13:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support This is what I have thought all along the article should be called. It is straightforward and easily understood; everybody knows what a "riot" is. Much preferable to "insurrection" or "storming," which could be challenging to those without fluent and well-educated English. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:04, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Beat me to it. I would support the current suggestion. However, I would suggest United States Capital Attack is better. First, I think we need to understand what is actually WP:COMMONNAME. Doing a google news search and searching for the terms in title combined with Capital gives us, Riot used 67,700 times, attack is used 193,000 times, insurrection is used 15,400 times and storming is used 6,340 times. That is extremely strong evidence that the current title is not aligned with WP:COMMONNAME and we should use attack. Next we must weigh precision and disambiguation. I think what gets you there is United States Capital Attack. I don’t think you need a year, as what occurred isn’t common enough to confuse people. I do think you need to clue the reader into the country. I would argue that this title meets Wikipedia standards for a title far better then the current and, even through we just had a move discussion, we take the time to look at this again. As noted in the orginal move, this was a temporary solution.Casprings (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Your search is not convincing. You misspelled "Capitol", and for some reason you used "Capitol Hill" instead of Capitol. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:40, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That is sad. Give me a second and I will fix it.Casprings (talk) 22:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And fixed. It’s the same results. Google is smart. That said, no one likes typos.Casprings (talk) 22:57, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Also updated to be Capital versus Capital Hill. I would note, the overall result is the same. Attack is the the common name.Casprings (talk) 23:10, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Your results are still totally weird. Maybe it's because you are still misspelling Capitol. Here's what I get, searching for each of the four words together with (quote marks) "U.S. Capitol". The result: Riot 84,300,000. Attack 82,700,000. Insurrecton 42,000,000. Storming 23,600,000. Riot and attack are the most common, but riot is slightly more used than attack. To the extent that Google searching means anything (debatable), riot is the common name. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:57, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is spelled right, if you click the links. What you are seeing is that I am searching to see if it is used in the title. That gives you a better idea of journalist are using it as a name.Casprings (talk) 00:15, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Ahh, I see. Thank you for explaining that you were searching for the word in the title. I missed that. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose - Was originally just going to comment but as I typed my feelings became more clear. My concern is that the term "riot" doesn't really encompass the breaching of the building, or the specific political aims of those who did so. This wasn't just destruction of property, those leading the group were specifically searching for congresspeople to, seemingly, take captive or even execute, or at the very least to stop the electoral certification. The current title, "storming", shows more of that intent. "Attack" might also work. I like "insurrection", but I feel like that's unlikely to win an RM in any form given the last one. I guess I'll back "2021 United States Capitol attack" or variants for an RM per WP:COMMONNAME. BlackholeWA (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. Obviously this was simply a riot—"storming" is laughably NPOV and clearly designed for dramatic effect. Equally important: the "riot" article ought not to include the speeches, marches, etc. that included many thousands of people. Now that we know that only about 800 people entered the Capitol,[73] and that the vast majority of those were peaceful and committed no crime at all, it's high time to put the numbers in perspective. These were the actions of what's likely less than 150 bad actors—out of tens of thousands of people in DC on January 6 for a day of peaceful marches, speeches, and protests. Lumping this together with the larger events of the day completely distorts the truth of what happened. Elle Kpyros (talk) 22:55, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The primary topic of this article is the violent attack on the capital by white supremacist extremists and other far-right actors. It would be a violation of WP:NPOV to minimize that, or the culpability of those involved in the day's events. Given your talk page admonitions regarding edits at Race and intelligence, I would discourage other editors from taking your attempts to do so in good faith. BlackholeWA (talk) 23:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    If more such comments appear, it will mean that "riot" is trending as a revisionist term. — Alalch Emis 00:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The primary topic of this article is not a violent attack on Washington DC (as had happened several times 2015-2016 and at the time of Trump's inauguration[74]} but a riotous intrusion on the Congress building and its debating chambers so as to disrupt the proceedings of the Senate and House while in session. Qexigator (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Procedural close is not appropriate, as the embargo was only on "insurrection" nominations. The closer specifically says "Other move requests (like "Riots," etc.) may be launched immediately.". BlackholeWA (talk) 23:23, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Irregardless of the previous RM closer opinion, it is MY opinion that the previous RM discussion stand for 30 days. We cannot keep junking up the article with RM tags and perpetual RM discussions -- it's disruptive. Octoberwoodland (talk) 23:25, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair, although I think(?) that procedural closures only apply to processes closed because the process itself violates a given rule/procedure rather than due to editor consensus. Maybe there'll be basis for a snow close, but too early for that I think. BlackholeWA (talk) 23:29, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. 1. "Capitol riot" is closer to WP:COMMONNAME than any other term, as lots of data about usage in WP:RS provided during #Requested move 16 January 2021 has shown. 2. It's true that "riot" isn't very specific and doesn't encompass all aspects of the event – in particular the political goals of the perpetrators – but other terms (e.g. "attack", "storming", "insurrection") would be slightly off in other ways. 3. It's probably best to keep the year in the title for now. "Capitol riot" is close to a WP:COMMONNAME, but it's not yet the name for the events of January 6, 2021. — Chrisahn (talk) 23:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong Oppose come on. the current title is fine and more descriptive of what is the most well-known facet of the attack. We should move-protect this page. 777burger talk contribs 23:54, 23 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The article is already move-protected. It won't be moved unless and until consensus is reached here, and then an admin will have to move it. That does not prevent discussion, since a lot of people don't think the current title is "fine". -- MelanieN (talk) 00:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Descriptive is not the right adjective here. In general, the title needs to convey "what", not "what did it look like". and if there's a real and specific word for that "what", that is sufficiently common – that is the best choice for the name. — Alalch Emis 01:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Pinging MelanieN; I don't know the procedure on 2 RfC's. Also, should "attack" be capitalized? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 00:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    That could have been done in the form of Option A/B (Support A / Support B / Oppose (both)), Somedifferentstuff. I don't think it's a good idea, but that's how it can be done. — Alalch Emis 00:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: See this RM as an example of how to suggest and maintain a table of proposed titles all users can vote for. -> Talk:List_of_works_similar_to_the_2020_Utah_monolith#Proposed_Titles. Octoberwoodland (talk) 00:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Might be a worthwhile approach, although it makes me wish we'd taken it in the last RM. BlackholeWA (talk) 01:02, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the ping. As for whether "attack" should be capitalized, no it shouldn't. As for whether it is allowable to run more than one RfC at a time, I can't answer that one. My hunch (speaking as just another editor, not an admin) is that it would be best to finish with one before starting another. And that there is no ban on starting another right away unless the closer imposes a moratorium - which they specifically didn't in this case. As Alalch Emis suggests, it is not uncommon to have RMs with more than one choice, but in my experience they rarely result in consensus. -- MelanieN (talk) 00:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Addendum: since there is so much diversity of opinion it may be impossible to hold an up-or-down vote on any single choice. Maybe something like the below table, where all the choices are presented and people can register themselves as "prefer", "accept", and "oppose", would be the best way to narrow down the community's actual preferences. Just a thought. -- MelanieN (talk) 15:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Insurrection was discussed. It is known that it will not gain consensus. There was storming, there was rioting, there was attacking, and there was insurrection, but the title has to be set based on Wikipedia policies. I urge you to support this title based on NCE and COMMONNAME. Perfect is the enemy of good. JaredHWood💬 00:30, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There was no consensus against "insurrection" there just wasn't enough consensus for "insurrection". Per my calculations, in the future this article will bear "insurrection" in the title, there's a way to go. — Alalch Emis 00:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Ribbet32, there is a Table of consensus for proposed titles below where you can choose your preferred title. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. "Riot" does not convey that the Capitol building was breached. It might just have been a rioting mob in the grounds. I support options like "storming" or "attack" which convey the violent breach of the building. WWGB (talk) 01:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    WWGB, there is a Table of consensus for proposed titles below where you can choose your preferred title. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 02:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The table below will not represent "consensus", it is just a bank of votes. That table has no relevance to this RM, which is purely about ONE requested change. The table just serves to cloud this standalone issue. WWGB (talk) 05:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support riot, then attack, then protests in that order. Oppose any charged language such as storming or insurrection or infiltration or anything else charged someone may come up with. I have no strong preference for the year being included or not, but I feel that it should likely be omitted if possible - i.e. if "riot" is chosen, to my knowledge, no other event could potentially qualify as a Capitol riot, thus omit - but attack would require the year as the Capitol was attacked prior - same with protests. My !vote for is based on WP:COMMONNAME - as those three seem to be equally prevalent in my view. My !vote against is per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME - we cannot use charged words such as storming, and in fact none of the "charged" language being proposed are even remotely near common name. I'll point out to all that this is not a vote - the table is useless, as just as the admin who closed the last move discussion brought up - it's not even necessary to count votes and any such counts may be wholly ignored if there are stronger policy reasons on one side. I also feel that any vote for "insurrection" specifically (without any other options) should be struck - the admin who closed the last RM made it clear that there is a discretionary arbitration sanction on this article for at least one month for moving it to that title - thus this discussion, by definition, cannot even remotely entertain the title "insurrection". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose Due to fact that "riot" is more a plural word "riots" rather than singular instead. Many sources like The Daily Telegraph and Hindustan Times refers it as "riots" (plural) instead "riot" (singular). Most riots article have standardized word (XXXX [city or place] riots) such as 1992 Los Angeles riots, 2011 England riots, etc. Aside from this, the current title is till better for now. 36.65.43.72 (talk) 03:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support but 2021 Riots at the United States Capitol would be better.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 03:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CRITERIA. (Given that COMMONNAME is use by the requester, I will explain with quotes.) Under COMMONNAME, Editors should also consider all five of the criteria for article titles outlined above. Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; see § Use commonly recognizable names, below. Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others. The issue with 2021 United States Capitol riot is using the word riot. It fails WP:CONSISTENT of CRITERIA, The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles, in the box above. Using riot would not be consistent with events like King-assassination riots and 1992 Los Angeles riots which were events that mostly took place of city streets. By contrast, this event occurred on the grounds and inside the Capitol. Additionally, there are sources that question what we should call the event: 1, 2, 3, 4. This seems to go against there being a single, common description for what happened. However, using a description that waters down what happened does not seem to be the best way forward. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      Update: Oppose using Attack as well - Honestly, this proposal has fallen apart with the removal of options from the table below. I believe that using attack is trying to water down what happened along with counting sources like "Attack on the Capitol", "attack on Capitol", and "in attack on Capitol" as equal to the proposed "Capitol Attack". If anything, I believe that using attack would violate WP:CONSISTENT as riot does above, in addition to WP:Precision as it is ambiguous over what attack refers to. It also isn't made clear how using attack would follow WP:NCE: When the incident happened is 2021, Where the incident happened is the United States Capitol, What happened is attack. What attack happened though isn't clear by the title. At least riot incorrectly tried to explain what the event was. --Super Goku V (talk) 17:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. But it's a step up from storming. Attack is the genus for insurrection (obv. the right term), and even though incredibly imprecise, still correct. Storming is not correct (omits crucial facts and aspects that fall outside of what is generally understood by "storming"). I completely share your rationale for opposing "attack", but the same rationale in my case renders a "neutral" position. — Alalch Emis 18:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I again would make the point above. Look at what WP:RS are using in their title of their articles. This is using google news search and looking at articles titles.
    That is a very good logic to use attack. Moreover, this is one of the most important events to occur. I think we can drop the year.Casprings (talk) 04:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The current title is better than the proposed one. "Riot" vs "protest" are both more subjective terms, while "storming" is a more objective and descriptive term. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. The word "riot" does not fully capture what happened. It strikes me that riots tend to be more spontaneous, often without any planning or direct incitement, and can sometimes be relatively trivial (such as riots that follow sporting events). My experience of watching lots of TV news over the past two weeks is that this event is not being described by reliable sources as a riot. I would rather we waited to change the name of the article until a term asserts itself beyond Wikipedia by public consensus -- much in the way that the US terrorist attacks of September 2001 were not right away called "9/11" but only coalesced as that name after some time had passed. (Yes, before anyone asks, I do know that's not the title of the Wikipedia article about 9/11.) In the meantime, I think "storming" is an apt (or apt enough for now) description of what occurred. Moncrief (talk) 05:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. I agree with the comment above. "Riot" is not an all-encompassing description and fully-accurate description of what happened. Also there is precedent on Wikipedia for the use of the word storming. See: 2020 storming of the Kurdistan Democratic Party headquarters, Storming of the Bastille among others. - kyyl0 :) (talk) 05:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose. A riot - as defined by Oxford Languages - is "a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd." This was more than a riot, this was an organized assault on a seat of government. Whether or not the majority of the mob intended to breach the Capitol is immaterial, the breach happened, people died, legislators and their staff and various police & security personnel on site were in serious fear of life and limb. Guns were drawn on the floor of the House Chamber - this was a much more serious event than "a riot". Shearonink (talk) 05:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose per Moncrief. Love of Corey (talk) 08:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose A "riot" could mean anything from an unruly protest to an armed coup. "Storming" is a more descriptive term that describes what happened (the building was breached and people unlawfully stormed it). 🌳QuercusOak🍂 09:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose, storming of the Capitol is factually what happened, riot is an inadequate description of the breach of a government building.Polyamorph (talk) 10:41, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose 'The Table for consensus' that has now been posted is more likely to add confusion than otherwise. It shows that so far there is little agreement for any other title, and the comments on this page, and as archived, show that support for any other title is based on divergent thoughts about the meaning of any of the proposed alternatives. it is quite clear that riots can be more severe and deadly than 2021 at the federal Capitol, such as the Gordon Riots, the March Unrest and many others, such as those mentioned in 11 of history’s biggest riots and why they happened.[75]Support While still unsure But in the case of 2021 at the Capitol, 'storming' is also acceptable, and at least second best or maybe first equal of any so far proposed. Qexigator (talk) 11:03, 24 January 2021 (UTC) revised Qexigator (talk) 11:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support. The proposed title is certainly better supported than the current title. Protesters storm the capitol a lot. BLM did it back in June. It wasn't even that big a news story at the time. 5440orSleep (talk) 11:48, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    BlackholeWA "Protesters storm the capitol a lot" ... another comment of the said type. — Alalch Emis 00:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support A riot is what it was, and its supported by numerous RS.Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment It should be noted that most or all of the above discussion occurred when the proposed move was to "riot". I don't know what to make of the "update" which now proposes a move to "attack", or when exactly it was added. Adding a new proposed title in the middle of the discussion has completely muddled the discussion. It means that when people above talk about "the proposed title" it may be unclear what proposal they are talking about. Bottom line, this RM is probably now confused beyond repair. The "table" below is also misleading if not worthless - because we don't know in what context people were responding, when they posted the comment they are tallied as making. For most of the above discussion this was presented as a two-fold choice, either "riot" or the existing "storming". "Attack" was suggested by multiple people but was never discussed as a support-or-oppose proposal, so its popularity, or lack thereof, cannot be evaluated by the above discussion or the below table. (For my own part, I would accept "attack", still prefer "riot", and oppose "insurrection". But I don't think any decision can be made on the basis of this constantly-changing RM.) BTW I think the table idea may be a helpful approach, but it would have to be started from scratch and not as part of an existing RM. Also it should have three columns: "prefer", "accept", and "oppose". -- MelanieN (talk) 15:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The Update has been removed as too many people have already commented when it was just discussing riot. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Somedifferentstuff! I agree with 99% of what MelanieN said. But since only one comment has been added after Jared.h.wood added the "attack" option and it clearly supports "riot" (Slatersteven above), I think we have repaired this RM and can finish it the usual way. — Chrisahn (talk) 15:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Looks good Chrisahn Thumbs up icon -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, thanks. The RM may be salvageable. The table below is still a good concept, but it would have to be started over from scratch - since it currently tallies what people said in a "storming vs. riot" discussion, it does not reliably evaluate people's opinions about all the possible titles. But it could be a good general survey of people's opinions. It should only ask about what NOUN to use (riot, storming, attack, insurrection, etc.). Once the appropriate noun is chosen we can decide about details like including the year or not. It would not have to be a table; it might be more readable as a text sentence where people rank the choices, or describe the various options as "prefer", "accept", or "oppose". -- MelanieN (talk) 16:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Agree 100%. — Chrisahn (talk) 16:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree 100% with MelanieN and Chrisahn, substantive support for "attack" can be drawn from this and the previous RMs. The table covers everything needing covering at this stage (including year and phrasing detail). This RM should result in a move as there is consensus to move away from storming. This was better discussed in meta subsections below. — Alalch Emis 16:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your input. Maybe whoever closes the discussion will agree with you. As I said, this RM might be salvageable. The outcome here will be decided, not by my opinion or yours, but by an uninvolved closer. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. Agreed. This should be put out of its misery as soon as possible. Someday when I have more time, I'd like to try and figure out why there has been such a push to change the title of this article. What's so terrible about "storming"? Moncrief (talk) 19:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    What's bad about storming is that there is consensus to move away from it to a different name. Amazingly, that's why there is a push to change the title. Asking why storming is bad now after thousands of words of prior discussion where it was argued how it's bad (you don't have to agree but the answer is out there) is kinda bad form. — Alalch Emis 19:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As I said, someday when I have more time, I'll try to read through the many thousands of words on this page to piece together the rationale. I didn't say the discussion wasn't out there; I said I didn't have time to try and figure it out right now. Moncrief (talk) 19:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. Both this discussion and the table below are proving useful for gauging where editors are at regarding a title change. Many editors are sharing their thoughts/opinions, both here and below. Give it a chance, there's no rush on our way to eventually gaining a general consensus on an appropriate title for this article. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:09, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Somedifferentstuff: But there's no reason to have a discussion about a better title within the context of a RM, which has prescriptive timelines and is formatted to establish if there is consensus for a specific move. If you want to do a straw poll, call it a straw poll and stop trying to shoehorn it where it doesn't fit. VQuakr (talk) 20:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @VQuakr:, that's a good point. Shall we separate the straw poll into a new section? -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Somedifferentstuff: Removing the table would be OK, but moving it would be wrong. The table was filled by various users with data gleaned from this discussion. To avoid misrepresenting users' opinions, we would have to start from scratch. If we do that, we should take into account these three suggestions. But I think we shouldn't start another kind of vote. We have this messy RM, we've had that table, now we have an RfC (that more or less tries to achieve the same thing as the table)... a new table would only exacerbate the chaos. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't have a straw poll to separate. We have a table that represents a mix of votes and user names added to sections against their wishes. It should be tossed because it is not and will not be usable for anything. The RfC below fulfills the actual need. VQuakr (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    A separate straw poll should've been started before, super useful when done correctly, but the fact that names were added to the table by other users is hilariously depressing. The RfC below is a hot mess that isn't going anywhere (unsurprisingly), but that's another story. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 22:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: as Bill Watterson said, a good compromise leaves everyone mad. VQuakr (talk) 20:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Everyone is equally a little mad for a brief while, and then everyone is generally happy. :) — Alalch Emis 20:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Strong oppose. "Riot" is a word that fails to convey the fact that the building was breached and invaded. "Storming" is adequate. "Coup attempt" and "insurrection" are plausible, indeed very plausible, interpretations of the intentions of those who stormed the Capitol, but then we enter into the realm of legal characterization and qualification of what happened (domestic terrorism, insurrection, sedition, coup attemp, violent protest). Those qualifications are better discussed within the article and not as its title. So "storming" is better, and it is a word that does convey the gravity of what happened. Antonio Basto (talk) 17:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Vastly oppose: "Riot" is a common word, a crowd of people behave violently in a public place, for example they fight, throw stones, or damage buildings and vehicles. They behave violently in a public place.
      An insurrection is violent action, rebellion, or revolt by a large group of people against the government and/or an established authority of their country, usually in order to remove them from office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.178.127.90 (talk) 21:13, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      "The Trump insurrection".... that literally made me laugh.... that is so biased.
    • Strong oppose. As per above, riot is non-specific, storming is far more accurate. Riot implies disordered chaos in public; Capitol was significantly more ordered in that it was a large number of people with a common goal, rather than wanton violence in the streets. Also, storming doesn't necessarily mean violence, it is near synonymous with overrun. Also, regardless of if protestors were peaceful, police officers were hurt in order for them to gain entrance, and they were trespassing; I'd say this warrants "storming". The article title is by no means perfect, but storming is about as good as we're going to get. Editor/123 21:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Where do I comment? Here or somewhere else? Here's my comment. The entirety of the event was not the storming. That is only part of it. A riot is more encompassing. So that is the 2nd choice. The best choice is protest because there were lots of people protesting, some of which didn't even enter the Capitol. If we look at BLM protest articles, they are deemed protests even if some had a component of looting. On the other hand, it is possible that some people may accuses anyone who supports "protests" as being a Trump suppporter, which is not true. Vowvo (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      @Vowvo: Sorry, the structure of this move request has become a bit confusing. I moved your comment here. To make clearly visible whether you support or oppose this request, please add a prefix like Support, Oppose or Comment. See the comments above yours for examples. Thanks! — Chrisahn (talk) 23:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Move to "attack" title. I supported "riot" in the previous RM, and still prefer it to both "storm" and "insurrection" (which are less common and/or more POV), but this above discussion has convinced me that "attack" is the best as being clearer and more comprehensive, while still being relatively common. StAnselm (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I've warmed on the idea of moving the page now.Most Humble and Obedient Servant (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment How many times have there been riots at the US Capitol, and/or how many times has the Capitol been stormed? In other words, it seems that the year in the article title may not be in line with article naming policy – that it may be excessively precise? -- Ohc ¡digame! 21:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ohconfucius: a year is recommended per WP:NCE. VQuakr (talk) 21:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @VQuakr:I think WP:NOYEAR applies here.Casprings (talk) 03:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It only applies to insurrection, as these things already happened at least once: attack, storming, riot — Alalch Emis 03:57, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Survey of proposed titles

    Please add your suggestion for each proposed title. Feel free to propose other titles. Please remember this is not a substitute for discussion. You should still discuss your views in the discussion section above.

    NOTE: several entries in this table have been added not by the users themselves, but by others who interpreted comments in the discussion above as support or opposition for certain options in this table. — Chrisahn (talk) 19:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This table should me removed, because it implies that we have a vote instead of striving to reach a consensus. The problem I see are the names as listed, suggesting what I see a vote count. Consensus, to editors not used reaching it, instead of the brute force of the numbers, is one in which a lonely editor, but with the better argument, gets the many to agree, what ever their initial position was. Any editor should refrain writing lines like "Oppose per other_editor" or "Support per other_editor" which as such are votes. Voting is editing like Committee, i.e. no neutrality, which is bad for a Encyclopedia. --Robertiki (talk) 05:25, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Proposed Article Titles
    No. Proposed Title(s) Support Oppose
    1 2021 storming of the United States Capitol @Octoberwoodland:
    @Dylanvt:
    @Rreagan007:
    @WWGB:
    @Antonio Basto:
    @Ben8142:    		 @Soibangla:
    @Alalch Emis:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @Casprings:
    @GreenMeansGo:
    @99.178.127.90:
    @MelanieN:
    2 2021 United States Capitol riot
    2021 riots at the United States Capitol
    – year exclusion to be decided later
    – word order & riot/s to be decided later    		 @Jared.h.wood:
    @MelanieN:
    @Ekpyros:
    @Chrisahn:
    @Darryl Kerrigan:
    @Dylanvt:
    @Berchanhimez:
    @Casprings:    		 @Octoberwoodland:
    @BlackholeWA:
    @777burger:
    @Soibangla:
    @Ribbet32:
    @WWGB:
    @Alalch Emis:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @36.65.43.72:
    @Super Goku V:
    @Rreagan007:
    @Shearonink:
    @Antonio Basto:
    @99.178.127.90:
    @Ben8142:
    3 2021 insurrection at the United States Capitol
    – year exclusion to be decided later
    – note: "insurrection" moratorium until 23 Feb    		 @Soibangla:
    @Alalch Emis:
    @Casprings:
    @Super Goku V:
    @Darryl Kerrigan:
    @99.178.127.90:    		 @Chrisahn:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @Dylanvt:
    @WWGB:
    @MelanieN:
    4 2021 United States Capitol attack
    2021 domestic attack on the United States Capitol
    – year exclusion to be decided later
    – "domestic" inclusion & word order to be decided later    		 @BlackholeWA:
    @Octoberwoodland:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @Jared.h.wood:
    @Dylanvt:
    @Berchanhimez:
    @Casprings:
    @WWGB:
    @Anachronist:
    @Darryl Kerrigan:    		 @Soibangla:
    @Super Goku V:
    @Ben8142:

    Survey of proposed titles – 24h w/o support

    Survey of proposed titles – 24h w/o support

    • Per analogy to WP:SNOW, and to make the table smaller and quicker to edit, these options were split after not gaining any support and gaining unanimous (except proposer) opposition during the first 24+ hrs. These are still valid options, and if you like them you can put in your name, and give your rationale in the discussion above. — Alalch Emis 05:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Proposed Article Titles
    No. Proposed Title(s) Support Oppose
    5 The Trump insurrection
    – note: "insurrection" moratorium until 23 Feb    		 @Octoberwoodland: @Soibangla:
    @BlackholeWA:
    @Chrisahn:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @Jared.h.wood:
    @Dylanvt:
    @Casprings:
    @WWGB:
    @Moncrief:
    @Super Goku V:
    @Darryl Kerrigan:
    @99.178.127.90:
    @Ben8142:
    @MelanieN:
    6 2021 United States Capitol protests @Berchanhimez: @Casprings:
    @Somedifferentstuff:
    @WWGB:
    @BlackholeWA:
    @Shearonink:
    @Alalch Emis:
    @Super Goku V:
    @Darryl Kerrigan:
    @99.178.127.90:
    @Ben8142:
    @MelanieN:

    Table meta: similar title consolidation

    Table meta: similar title consolidation

    @Darryl Kerrigan: Please consider removing your proposal from the table, it's too similar to the existing one. It can't be riots (plural) instead of riot, because "riots" means the event lasted multiple days, or there were riots in several locations, and if this is treated as a riot, then it's just a riot – singular. Word order should not form a separate table entry in my opinion (just my opinion). I consolidated my entry with another users' to make the table easier to work with, it's really important. Your preferred exact wording is still listed in your comment, that the closing admin will read. — Alalch Emis 04:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    We should allow any editor the freedom to propose any title they wish. They need to have this freedom. Octoberwoodland (talk) 04:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it will work then.
    Also admin talked about year exclusion presenting as a (potentially) separate issue — Alalch Emis 04:42, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It will work. calm down. Also, don't archive the discussion below this one. Octoberwoodland (talk) 04:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I couldn't resist the urge to do it. It's better now. — Alalch Emis 05:37, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    @Casprings: Please consider consolidating your "riot" and "attack" proposal with the existing one by adding the "– year exclusion to be decided later" comment like I did for my proposal.

    Yes, this would be helpful. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 05:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I did it for his "attack" with no oppose and 1 (his) support. — Alalch Emis 05:08, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    List of consolidated titles
    List of consolidated titles

    Table meta discussion

    Table meta discussion

    Octoberwoodland VQuakr Berchanhimez It doesn't have to be construed as a vote. The table can be supplementary/consultative and/or a mere aid – there could be a precondition that you must make a substantive comment first. The table is hard to edit because of conflicts however. I think this needs to be discussed more. People posting in it so far have all input their comments first, and everyone seems to like the table, and uses it in good faith. — Alalch Emis 02:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I did not collapse the table but I agree with the collapsing. Tables are only useful when there is no policy-based question to answer (i.e. voting on a subjective/arbitrary coloring/etc). The admin (or other person) who eventually closes is free to use a table they create - but having a "running table" encourages people to "pile on" to options which appear to have more !votes, and encourages people to !vote without reading the entire discussion. I am not aware of any policy explicitly prohibiting a table, but the potential negative impact on the discussion is that even if a consensus emerges, the question will always remain: "did the presence of the table unduly influence some people's discussion and/or the close itself" - and beyond that "was the table ever accurate given that anyone can edit". I do not feel that this RM requires a table, nor do I feel it provides any beneficial addition, and I encourage everyone to discuss on their own. I will not be adding my name to any table, and I encourage others who support discussion to also not allow their name to be used in such a table - as the discussion is what's important, not any preliminary/early "vote tallying". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Gonna add as a separate comment that I believe the table was originally created/added to by anyone who did do so in good faith - I simply disagree that it's even useful, and think it may be potentially harmful to have continue. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    These reasons are not solid enough. Table should stay for 3 days, and then it can be closed if abused. It's easy to see if people post in it without making a substantive comment first. Table helps determine interest for alternatives. There appears to be consensus to move away from "storming". — Alalch Emis 03:09, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • There was absolutely not a consensus to remove the table. It does not have to be taken as a straight vote, but as a manner of measuring support for particular candidate titles. It is a method that has worked well for other RMs and was embraced by the nominator. Why has it been unilaterally closed with no discussion? BlackholeWA (talk) 03:01, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There doesn't need to be consensus, this is firm discretionary terrain. The table is very novel and runs counter to decision of closing admin from previous RM. BUT it's not bad, it should be researched. — Alalch Emis 03:06, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    At the very least there should be a venue to put forth titles on equal terms instead of RM instigators simply choosing their favourite to headline each RM. The table worked well at that purpose. If people also comment their rationale I see no reason not to include it. This is WP:NOTAVOTE but let's be real - consensus will ultimately fall along the lines where the most editors are convinced and chip in in support. Policy should take precedent over that, but that still gives us several fairly evenly placed options, such as attack, insurrection, and maybe riot, which all have WP:COMMONNAME arguments etc BlackholeWA (talk) 03:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The table is useful for determining consensus of multiple titles, which is allowed according to WP RM policy for WP:NOGOODOPTIONS and allows editors to quickly glance over possible titles. It's extremely useful for getting editors to reach consensus quickly with a complex subject which may have many title options. I have used it in other RM discussions and it is extremely useful and it works. It's not a substitute for discussion, but who feels like reading over 500K of confusing and contradictory comments to attempt to glean an editor's viewpoint. WP:RM closing instructions clearly state that multiple titles are required to be considered, and removing the tool which is being used to easily determine that and relegating all of us to RM one title at a time will result in this article being in perpetual RM mode -- which is has been in near continuous RM status since it was created. Editors must be allowed to dialogue on potential titles and not be stifled by a minority who disagree. So please restore the table, it's a valuable tool and we need it to determine the best title. If anything, that table will result in more discussion as new titles are proposed. Octoberwoodland (talk) 03:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The table is functionally in line with the less novel Option A/B method which was recommended by earlier admin, and we're still in the same process, just a later stage. Yeah, someone with enough authority just needs to add two and two — Alalch Emis 03:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I've seen so far, it doesn't matter one way or the other. I see too many people giving their own opinions without regard to WP:POLICY. I personally like the table idea, but I see that in an official RM it exacerbates the problem and does not aid in determining consensus based on sound reasoning. Is there a proper channel for the RM to close early? With some users vehemently advocating titles like "The Trump Insurrection" and others accepting nothing but "The Mostly Peaceful Protest" I don't see how anything reasonable can prevail at this time. JaredHWood💬 03:26, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I advocate for anyone !voting for "insurrection" to have that portion of their comment, or if they only mention "insurrection" the entire comment, struck from this discussion. This is not the place to overturn the prior requested move and discretionary moratorium. I will not be striking those comments myself as I do not feel I am the right person to do so, but I feel that any admin who happens across this discussion should likely do so. I'll also point out that a closers job is to read the entire discussion - not use such a table - and any !votes based on such a table are automatically "less valid" (but not invalid) - as they don't take into account the entire discussion. A table is not a dialogue - you are perfectly allowed to dialogue within the RM itself and the discussion of it - but a table is by definition not "dialogue". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The table will help us get consensus on a name. It's useful because it adds another metric, since it allows editors to select more than one choice. It also shows where editors will reject more than one choice. ignore all rules applies here. The opinion of a minority of editors attempting to impose excessive bureaucracy which is contrary to WP:NOGOODOPTIONS and which is preventing us from improving Wikipedia can be overruled by editor consensus. Removal of the table is overruled. Octoberwoodland (talk) 03:39, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Editors are more than capable of supporting more than one option, and opposing any/more than one option(s), in a discussion format, while explaining their choices in doing so based on policy/other discussion points. Ignore all rules does not apply here, as the table does not improve the encyclopedia, in fact it helps people violate our core principle of "consensus" for deciding things here. There is no "excessive bureaucracy" by requiring people to participate in a consensus building discussion rather than simply voting. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:42, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The table instructions specifically state it is not a substitute for discussion and editors are still required to discuss their views. Octoberwoodland (talk) 03:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed; straw polling is not a problem, as long as it's used responsibly and in conjunction with discussion [76] -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 03:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Whoever added my name to the table (against my specific request to not be included, but I will leave it) illustrates a prime example of why a table is both unreliable and unhelpful - they added my supports, but not my clear opposition to some of the names that are present there. I won't collapse/uncollapse the table, but I think that it shows clearly that the table could potentially be manipulated by someone who wants to show more/less support/opposition for something, because I don't think most people are going to be checking, and many may not even add their name to begin with. I don't think whoever added me did it in bad faith... but it goes to show how it's less than useful. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 04:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Then change it. There is no rule that an editor may not come along and update it with your clear choices since it is not a vote but an informal tally. Octoberwoodland (talk) 04:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Qexigator:The status quo option is the first option, which is the current title — Alalch Emis 01:50, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Adding others' names @Chrisahn: We can add others to the table. The table uses pings so people can remove their names. It's important to add people soon after they've added their comment, so as not to inconvenience them with pings too long after they've moved on to other things. You didn't do right to revert. — Alalch Emis 18:42, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Per the above discussion of people who actually set the table up, which discussion ended with an uncontested assertion that other's names can be added, I will manually revert your revert. — Alalch Emis 18:47, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "uncontested assertion that other's names can be added" — That's bullshit. See e.g. this. But whatever. Add any names you like, I'm not going to revert them. It just means that the table will be completely useless because we don't know if people actually know that their names have been added, whether they know what that means, whether they would have chosen additional options, etc. This is getting silly. Sorry for being so blunt. I know you mean well and otherwise you're doing a good job, but it looks you're getting carried away a bit... Well. No big deal. We'll have another RM in three to six days, I guess, and it will hopefully be less chaotic than this one. Take care! — Chrisahn (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You could read a little more carefully. against my specific request to not be included, but I will leave it – there is a general presupposition that other's votes are added, and what it takes for a vote not to be added is specific request (and the user whose name you removed did not make such a request). User you quoted did not contest that names are added, just expressed a doubt as to how it will work out in the end. Thanks, you too! — Alalch Emis

    Proposal - One-month moratorium on move proposals

    Guys we just had a RM close. This RM should be closed, for the same reason that a 4th revert at 24 hours 5 minutes would still be in violation of the 3RR. Rather than endless churning move proposals, let's focus on the article content and have a RM after a clear name for this event has emerged. VQuakr (talk) 05:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    This has been my view from the get go, but I figured it might be worthwhile to get consensus on a title. It appears we have a winner - "2021 United States Capitol attack". Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:44, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    If anything, we just learned there is definitely rough consensus to move away from "storming". Hard to simply put a stop on everything now, seeing that people feel there is room for improvement. Incremental progress good. — Alalch Emis 05:48, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I suspect that, over time, we will settle on "attack" as the action word, but still need to work through alternatives like 2021 attack on the United States capitol, 2021 United States Capitol attack, Attack on the United States Capitol and United States Capitol attack. WWGB (talk) 05:50, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Anything with "attack" requires the year, as there have been attacks in history other than this one. That being said, the more concise will always win, thus "attack on the" will fail to "attack" always. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok. Let's get an admin in here and move the page and close the RM with "2021 United States Capitol attack". After that all of us should agree to a 30 day moratorium on further RM requests. Octoberwoodland (talk) 05:56, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm okay with that, despite attack lacking specificity. Better than "storming" after all (bombing? attempted hostage taking?). Insurrection is a more specific form of attack. It has a little bit of bearing here too. Semantically speaking, we're standing on a more common ground. Year issue is neutralized with "attack" which helps a lot, and it's short. — Alalch Emis 06:03, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As the nominator is there anything I can do to assist in closing the RM early or making "riot" or "attack" a valid option for support? JaredHWood💬 06:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    We just need to ask an admin to move the page for us. We could request it an WP:AN Octoberwoodland (talk) 06:36, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You can do it J.h.wood. Don't alter the original request to retroactively infuse "attack" — Alalch Emis 06:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I don’t think any admin will move a page on the outcome of a straw poll. The above RM was about changing storming to riot, nothing else. I think you will need a fresh RM to have the page moved to attack. WWGB (talk) 06:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    An admin is not going to move the article title based on the very limited discussion here. (Am I reading correctly the request above?) You'd need to do a fresh RM with that specific proposal. Moncrief (talk) 07:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Neither of these statements conform to what WP:NOGOODOPTIONS says. A closing admin MUST consider other proposed titles and consensus for those titles. We don't need to keep having RM discussions over and over again with this article. Let's put to rest the title for good (at least for the next 30 days). :-) Octoberwoodland (talk) 07:31, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You don't need a new RM. Admin needs to get a feel on the nature of the naming controversy beforehand and read everything (all of the big RMs: the storming one, the insurrection ones /the abortive very early but not insubstantial one too/ and this one). He needs to look at arguments present here, which are ok. Then he needs to look at things in context and understand what caused the lack of consensus-forming in the last RM. He will be able to notice that "attack" is simply a genus proximus for "insurrection" (unlike "riot" which isn't a type of attack). Then, based on the prevailing support (rough consensus) for this agency-driven semantic pole of the naming matter, as opposed to entropy-driven ("riot"; "storming" is in the middle but there is consensus to move away from it) admin can concede there there is a rare window of opportunity for precious incremental progress, and do the move. Then the torrent of RMs stops. Later it could only be a linear issue of whether to go from "attack" to a more specific type of attack, except storming. — Alalch Emis 07:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't say an admin couldn't move the article title without an RM. I said I think that an admin is not going to do so. I say this due to the level of user participation and interest in discussing the title of this article. Moncrief (talk) 08:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I rather have a 6-month moratorium for moving this page in order to prevent any distruptive page move in the future and makes the article more stable. 36.65.43.72 (talk) 07:53, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The option to support attack has been added. Thanks for all your innovative ideas and discussion on this. I am hopeful this option will move the discussion toward consensus. JaredHWood💬 14:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jared.h.wood: I'm afraid that's not going to work. There are dozens of "support" and "oppose" comments already, but they support/oppose "riot", not "attack". Could you remove the option to support "attack"? It's only adding more confusion. Let's finish this RM for "riot" first. Thanks! — Chrisahn (talk) 15:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Chrisahn is correct. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I thought an RFC with options might be a better means to gain consensus here. I opened one at the bottom of the page.Casprings (talk) 14:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's great that it looks like we might be able to agree on "attack", but we should try to do it in an at least somewhat orderly fashion. Otherwise we might have a WP:move review soon. Let's find a title that we can live with for at least three to six months. Let's finish this RM for "riot" first. Maybe it doesn't have to run for the full seven days if it's clear there's not enough support. But I think three days should be the minimum. After that, we can start a new RM for "attack". If it gets enough support, we might be able to finish it sooner than in seven days as well. We've had "storming" for 17 days now. We can live with it for another week or so. — Chrisahn (talk) 15:20, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I didn’t start a move request. I started an RFC. Can’t move review an RFC. The point of the RFC is to bring order to this. Need clear votes and options if this will move forward.Casprings (talk) 15:22, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I wasn't responding to you, but to the discussion in this section "Proposal - One-month moratorium on move proposals" in general. I indented your comment like the ones above it to make that clearer. I hope that's OK. — Chrisahn (talk) 15:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    2nd paragraph of the lede - "thousands of the crowd"

    It currently states "thousands of the crowd" in the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph. This is awkward phrasing but I can't think of how to fix it. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 11:25, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Good point. I just changed it to "thousands of the protesters". I think that's OK because when they left the rally at the Ellipse and walked to the Capitol, they weren't rioting yet. It would be incorrect to call them something like "rioters" at this point. — Chrisahn (talk) 14:07, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    please add Faces of the Riot

    Please add external link Faces of the Riot. It is some sort of memorial. Maybe also some help for FBI. -- Chrxix (talk) 14:10, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a memorial or a help for the FBI. The site is not a WP:RS. If there's content by reliable sources about the site, maybe we could add something to Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol. But so far, I see no reason to do that. — Chrisahn (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Also wp:blp, we do not have "rogues galleries".Slatersteven (talk) 14:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    RfC to gain consensus for a follow-on Wikipedia:RM

    Move requests are the domain of WP:RM. There should not be two concurrent RMs open at the same time, which is what this RfC effectively is doing. The entire set up (quasi-RM RfC) is too unconventional and shouldn't be repeated again. El_C 04:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    This RFC is meant to gain consensus for a follow-on Wikipedia:RM. The current title was, per the closer, a temporary solution. Current discussion and a currently open move request concerns the use of riot, attack, or storming. I would ask that you vote on the following choices and, if you favor two or more, to rank your votes.

    • Choice A Use the term attack, as in the title 2021 United States Capitol attack
    • Choice B Use the term riot, as in the title 2021 United States Capitol riot
    • Choice C Use the term storming, as in the current title.

    Second, a yes or no question:

    Discussion

    • Support both Choice A and Choice B, in that order. Oppose keeping Choice C. On the second question, no, the title does not require the year.
    Doing a title search on google news gives you clear results on what WP:RSes are naming the event
    riot used 67,700 times,
    attack is used 193,000 times,
    storming is used 6,340 times.
    That is good evidence, to me, that both riot and attack are acceptable, but attack is slightly better. I would also note the connection of storm and the QAnon.
    No. For the year vote, I would argue that the event is notable enough that it does not require a year and excluding it better meets the standards of WP:TITLE. I think WP:NOYEAR works here because of the importance of the event. Casprings (talk) 14:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Super Goku V: I would be curious how attack fails either one of the policies you mentioned.Casprings (talk) 18:46, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Same thought here. Can you explain how WP:CONSISTENT in particular applies? VQuakr (talk) 20:24, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    There was a typo, has been fixed
    Grammer wise, it should be capitol as it is a reference to the building (see: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/capital-vs-capitol/) That said, I don’t think that should take away from the overall argument and if there are other grammer arguments, we can discuss them. That hasn’t been the major hang up in gaining consensus.Casprings (talk) 16:59, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    reely??? — Alalch Emis 18:11, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. A Capitol is the word for the building. Capital is the word for the city where the building is.Casprings (talk) 18:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Casprings: In Choice B, you had written 2021 United States Capital riot. That's why Qexigator asked. I've fixed it. — Chrisahn (talk) 18:22, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Chrisahn: Thank you. Sorry I missed that.Casprings (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Thanoscar21: You can vote for attack right away, there is an actual RM for attack (and other names) right above. This RfC is potentially misleading in how it's framed. It promises a "follow-on RM" but it's very possible that the result of this RfC will have no bearing on it, because the current RM could have a lasting effect and determine the future of the naming process, if any. — Alalch Emis 02:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    There's no RM for "attack". There's an RM for "riot". This talk page is such a mess... — Chrisahn (talk) 02:44, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Meta-Discussion

    I think this RFC should be closed. We have a RM discussion above. Then someone added a table. Then someone closed the table. Then someone opened it again. This RFC asks the same question as the table, just in a different format. It will only make the discussion even less focused. — Chrisahn (talk) 15:26, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I disagree. It asks it in a way that people have to make clear choices and rank their choices. Moreover, it expands the discussion beyond the people taking part in the move and takes it out to a wider population of Wikipedia editors. In sum, more editors and more structure.Casprings (talk) 15:28, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    This RfC absolutely should be closed as I stated above. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree that this RfC is made in good faith but is not helpful at this time and should be closed. There are suggestions above for a more general survey of proposed titles that may prove to be more helpful. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    MelanieN you seem to be soft- forum shopping (buying support) for your negativist view of the current RM by evading substantive discussion on its' reach and functioning where that discussion is actually being held (the long "meta" subsection underneath the table). The current RM is the more general survey. — Alalch Emis 16:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Alalch Emis: Whoa there. Calm down. I really appreciate your contributions to the current and previous RM. Good job! But this comment looks like you should take a breath and relax. We all may not always agree on how to make sure that these messy discussions remain productive, but there's no reason to accuse other editors of stuff like that. Take it easy. Or at least a bit more easy. :-) Cheers! — Chrisahn (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    RFC’s typically stay open for 30 days. I think we know enough about the various fault lines. It seems pretty clear that the current move request is moving towards no consensus. There is no reason we can’t use this to get a clear poll and finish or do other move requests as consensus develops.Casprings (talk) 15:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As I already mentioned, this RfC will not be helpful; it should be closed. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It is not clear at all that the current RM is moving toward no consensus. — Alalch Emis 17:54, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    If it does, so what? I support a move to riot over the current title. Still a decent way to move towards a long term name.Casprings (talk) 18:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Somedifferentstuff: No, close the RM instead. It's FUBAR. VQuakr (talk) 20:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @VQuakr: I was attempting to work with you, but we'll have to agree to disagree. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    The table is more easy to read, the RFC does not include "insurrection".... it should be added to Choice D. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.178.127.90 (talk) 22:38, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    I excluded that because of the last RFC that used that term. It had its own RFC, so I didn't see the need.Casprings (talk) 00:27, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

    "Insurrection Day" listed at Redirects for discussion

    A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Insurrection Day. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 24#Insurrection Day until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 16:32, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Future move requests for this page should be multi-move requests

    A procedural detail: Since this page has several daughter pages, a move request for this page should be a {{multi-move request}}. See WP:RMCI#Moves of other pages.

    For example, there might soon be a request to move this page to 2021 United States Capitol attack. The wikitext for this request should look like this: 

    {{subst:Requested move|2021 United States Capitol attack|reason= ...
|current2 = Timeline of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
|new2 = Timeline of the 2021 United States Capitol attack
|current3 = Aftermath of the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
|new3 = Aftermath of the 2021 United States Capitol attack
|current4 = Domestic reactions to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
|new4 = Domestic reactions to the 2021 United States Capitol attack
|current5 = International reactions to the 2021 storming of the United States Capitol
|new5 = International reactions to the 2021 United States Capitol attack
}}

    (Note that I'm not suggesting that the current move request should be changed. It should have been a multi-move request, but we didn't think of it, and it's too late now. No big deal. We'll sort it out later if necessary.)

    — Chrisahn (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Using list-defined refs?

    I'd like to consider using list-defined references on this article. I've noticed a lot of references get orphaned due to editor error, and list-defined references mitigate this issue. Additionally, list-defined refs help make the Wikitext more readable. Any thoughts? Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 17:04, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Please no. List-defined references are a pain. You need to search all up and down the article to find or add a reference - insert it here, cite it there - instead of being able to do all your research and citing within the space of a single section. The references are entered in random order down in the list; good luck finding the one you want to view or edit, in an article with 470 references. And if you remove a text citation, the reference remains in the list as an orphan. Also, although this doesn't affect me, I see that list-defined references do not work for anyone using the visual editor. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:17, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Named references, on the other hand, can be quite easy to use (I don't use visual editor). The ref stays with the content, and is removed upon the last use of the ref. See Remove numbering from id/href when reference name is defined on MediaWiki. --Ancheta Wis   (talk | contribs) 02:58, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    New reidirect

    Should 2021 United States Capitol insurrection redirect here? They are both about the same topic anyways. - Cilabsuhsk (talk | contribs) 04:04, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    Nevermind. There already is. - Cilabsuhsk (talk | contribs) 04:05, 25 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:January_6_United_States_Capitol_attack&oldid=1002600549"