Talk:Marilyn Manson

Sources

• Marilyn Manson and the Politics of Being a Huge Troll

Goth metal

I added the genre "goth metal" because they are listed on the "list of goth metal bands" page with a citation. The Mo-Ja'al (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Manson’s second marriage

He married Lindsay Usich in the spring of 2020, in a private ceremony. She later confirmed it with a picture she took of him wearing his wedding band. MansonGirl15 (talk) 14:30, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

early life

Marilyn Manson confessed that he had Polish-German roots thanks to his father's family and the same you can read in his book: The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.2.7.80 (talk) 01:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE

I believe, as the story is developing, the inclusion of the allegations of abuse in the lede are currently WP:UNDUE for now. I held back from reverting Sdkb's edit in favour of generating discussion. CaffeinAddict (talk) 21:40, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

CaffeinAddict, thanks for starting discussion. To elaborate a bit on my edit summary, the general pattern I've observed at other pages of men accused of sexual misconduct is that, when the allegations are severe and well-substantiated, they almost always end up in the person's lead, whereas when they're less severe or less well substantiated, the result is more variable. In this case, there are tons of substantiating factors: multiple women coming forward, a long history of them talking about their experience anonymously or disclosing to friends, statements from Manson himself, etc. And the allegations are of severe psychological and sexual abuse, not just sexist remarks or uncomfortable shoulder touching. I don't want to WP:CRYSTALBALL anything, but it seems all but certain that this will affect his reputation in a way lasting enough to warrant mention in the lead. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:14, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with leaving it out of the lead—for now. The story is still on-going. Wikipedia is not an active news source, we're here to summary style describe long-term events. I'm also concerned about the tabloid-ish tone of the "Abuse allegations" section. Per WP:BLP, we need to be very careful about how we describe on-going issues. Despite protestations by above user, these claims are not "substantiated". Suggest everyone source facts without any editorializing. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

The allegations do not go into detail on the severity of the abuse, with only one anecdotal corroboration from the former employee. This could range from "bad relationship" to sexual, physical, mental abuse etc. My proposal would be to keep the section in personal life, adding updates as it develops, before deciding whether the mention in the lede is warranted which is supposed to be a summary of the artist's life and major life events. I would point to Johnny Depp as an example of having an extensive section on his relationship with Amber Heard, none of which mentions the abuse allegations in the lede. Also a story which shifted in tone, severity and fault over the course of it's news cycle. Homeostasis07 is 100% correct - wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. CaffeinAddict (talk) 01:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I completely agree with all this. Suggest Sdkb self-revert until consensus is reached here for inclusion in the lead. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and made at WP:BOLD edit and removed the information from the lede, it was being added to and bloating. We should really be following the WP:BLP rules when it comes to the information in the article. It cannot be WP:Libel. CaffeinAddict (talk) 03:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

CaffeinAddict, I think this is the right decision for the minute. If there is sustained coverage for Manson's physical and sexual abuse charges, and it leads to him being disgraced in a manner akin to Gary Glitter, that would be the time to put it in the lead. But Wikipedia is not a crystal ball so we can't do it at this time. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

[EDIT: Please note that the comment that I wrote this in reference to has since been removed by the editor who left it] Isn't this comment against BLP and should be speedily deleted? It's making baseless claims and twisting the truth to try to make Evan Rachel Wood (as if she were the only person making these allegations) look bad. She has not made false allegations against Bryant, Bryant's accuser has never stated that he didn't rape her. Wood's also saying that her C-PTSD is the result, directly, of Manson's abuse. The article on C-PTSD clearly states a symptom is "variations in consciousness, such as amnesia or improved recall for traumatic events", not impaired memory in the sense that people would falsely recall events that didn't happen. No idea what this person above thinks depersonalization means and how that makes Wood's claims "dubious" (but I'm going to bet top dollar they don't actually know what it means). Also, I would like to point out that Wood does in fact discuss her symptoms in her two testimonies, and they fall more on the side of improved recall, constant re-living of the events and extreme fear. In summary, this comment makes grossly false and libelous claims about a living person in the interest of trying to argue for Manson.TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 10:29, 20 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

I'm sorry @TrueHeartSusie3: but I have to ask that you take a step back from editing any article pertaining to abuse allegations regarding "pop culture" figures, at least until you fully digest WP:BLP. After reading what you wrote here, I believe you are editing this article – and others – to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, which isn't ideal in these sorts of controversial areas. Our duty as experienced Wikipedia editors willing to maintain articles in times of upheaval must be to adhere to BLP at all costs, and remove the crazy – from both sides – as soon as possible. This story first broke on February 1, during which time commentary has moved from "Marilyn Manson is an abuser" to "Marilyn Manson is a Satanic cannibal white supremacist human trafficking paedophile". I don't know about you, but I have absolutely no desire to be named as a defendant in a defamation lawsuit when all this MeToo-meets-Pizzagate stuff hits the fan, which it inevitably will. Until the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department finalized report is released, there really is no reason for anyone to edit this section of the article. I could have written a lot more here in response to your various edit summaries and comments made about me elsewhere, but I think this should suffice. I hope you keep well, and find more productive areas to spend your time. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:54, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

User:Homeostasis07, this is quite a statement considering the types of changes you've been making to the Evan Rachel Wood article (e.g. the Kobe Bryant addition, worded in a misleading way and then edit warring when another editor pointed this out; your insistence on editing Wood's statements and adding scare quotes simply because you insisted that you know better – please also see your edit summaries, they have been quite aggressive rather than constructive). Here, I'm simply pointing out that the comment made by an IP above is in no way constructive and is against BLP rules, and as such, should be deleted speedily. Given that ordinary editors should never delete other people's messages on talk pages, I cannot do so myself, but hoped that by commenting perhaps another editor with admin rights would. Why you feel the need to attack me personally and make baseless assumptions about what I think about this case tells volumes about you. If you have an issue with me personally (as it seems you do), please leave a message on my talk page and we can discuss. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 09:39, 22 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

You made your own, arguably libelous interpretations based on information in the article, and made false, potentially libelous claims about a living person. Now you are also misrepresenting what I have said in another discussion. As for Heard/Depp, you're free to join the discussion on those articles' talk pages (or the gender bias discussion, for that matter). TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 15:51, 22 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

I have never claimed to "know better". I have always included sources for my edits. On the other hand, you made this comment, which was entirely inappropriate, especially since I'd already included a reference (The Independent, I believe), which said Manson and Wood met for the first time in the autumn of 2006, when Wood was 19 and while he was married to Dita Von Teese. Then you seemed to use your edit summary as justification for linking child grooming to both this and Evan Rachel Wood's article. I intentionally waited 24 hours for you to remove this linkage, but you didn't. This is absolutely not the kind of behaviour expected of experienced Wikipedians when articles like this experience a massive amount of traffic.

You do realise Wikipedia has been sued several dozen times for libel? Regarding Bryant, what I added to Wood's article was a reference to the fact that he was never convicted of rape, which, despite your arguing over semantics, is accurate. You made mention of the low conviction count for these types of allegations in your "Countering systemic bias" thread. These sorts of comments were, as well, entirely inappropriate. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum for one to propagate personal beliefs. All I can really do at this point is direct you to the DS notice SlimVirgin posted to Evan Rachel Wood's talk page: this is not a gender issue. I hope you take this to heart, and step back from this kind of activity. Kind regards, Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:11, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Re: Kobe Bryant, you added this, containing the erroneous claim that Bryant was never charged. When another editor corrected the error, you reacted to it with "Semantics". Regardless of what you think about Bryant and the case, it's quite clear that never being charged and charges being dropped are not the same thing. Especially as in this case they were dropped because the alleged victim refused to testify (i.e. to go to trial) and therefore it was settled out of court. Regardless of whether this controversy should be added to the Wood article, it's interesting that you chose just this time to add it, and to word it specifically that way, and then react in that way when your error was pointed out to you.

Once that was corrected, you begin editing the part about Wood filing a police report on Lindsay Usich, changing what Wood stated (see here what the source says), here. Sure, we can state she was intoxicated, but Wood isn't just stating that, but that she was given drugs and alcohol, which has a very different connotation. The way you worded it makes it seem as if Wood is just pissed off that her party pics are leaked online, when in fact what she was saying is that they are not simply that. You also added scare quotes to "underage", and gave a year for the party, although the source nor Wood's tweet do not date it, other than saying she was underage (it is unclear if she means underage as in sexual consent or drinking). In your next edit, you again claim to know when this party took place. When the scare quotes are taken off, you add them again and also delete any mention that they were taken when Wood was in Manson's presence (you're correct that it isn't stated that it was at a party thrown by him, but the entire point of Wood's tweet is that she was with Manson during this time and was manipulated to wearing this get up). When I point this out by asking you not to add your POV to the article, you do not accept this (and here seem to think it's a personal insult rather than a comment on your actions), instead delete the entire word underage (though it's the one Evan Rachel Wood highlights in her tweet), and then apparently the fact that they started dating when she was 18 should be enough to negate a statement from Wood herself, where she doesn't say they were yet in a relationship. This is what I mean when I say you claim to know better than sources or Wood.

As for the edit summary you lifted up, I'd like to point out that someone who leaves edit summaries like this should not be the one to point fingers. My comment was in reference both to your claims of knowing the timeline of Wood's association with Manson better than her (as exemplified above), and to the edits made by IPs like this.

As for the grooming link, could you show me where I have added this? Apart from Wood's statement, where she indeed does state she was groomed, I don't recall adding any material related to grooming? I actually even went through my edits to these articles trying to find this, but did not spot this?

I have never added any material to either of these articles that did not come from reputable sources. I am well aware of BLP criteria, but of course at times make mistakes, which help me learn more about editing when corrected. You are claiming that I make libelous claims, but it is not clear what these are? As for gender bias, you are choosing to cherry-pick parts of what I wrote and misrepresent it — in the process making it even clearer that these are issues that definitely need more discussion. What I'm calling for is discussion and additional codes of conduct/MoS guidelines on these issues given how tricky they are in many respects, and that controversial articles perhaps need more monitoring due to this pattern of editors and fly-bys frequently breaking BLP criteria. As always in WP, you are welcome to take part in the discussion where it was started. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 11:12, 23 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

Wow. Where does one even begin with a soapbox like this? Other than to, of course, categorically deny these claims. The mental gynmastics on display here are quite astonishing. There's a modicum of truth to a couple of points, but everything has been so twisted and distorted beyond the actual events that it's impossible to know where to begin responding. Which I genuinely believe was the objective, so kudos. The only thing I'd like to respond to is your point regarding Kobe Bryant: I made a mistake saying that Bryant was never charged with rape. That was a typo, for which I apologize. What I meant to write was he was never convicted of rape, which is true. We can argue on why this was, but that would not be helpful. You alluded to the difference between the two yourself here. And for the record, a section on Wood's Bryant controversy was included on her article quite some time ago, but was removed for no particular reason.

And please be aware that there's so much I'd love to spill my guts about right now, but there is god knows how many people reading this, so I can't. Maybe we could e-mail, but I doubt that would even make a difference in the long run. Let's just say, did you notice how Wood removed the scan of the police report she filed against Lindsay Usich from her Instagram? This is why Wikipedia BLP articles need to be as neutral as possible: things change, even from the perspective of the accuser. It's all pretty damn interesting, when you delve into it—no way in hell I'm posting links to it all, though. Hope you keep well, and kind regards. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:55, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

"Let's just say, did you notice how Wood removed the scan of the police report she filed against Lindsay Usich from her Instagram?" This is exactly the kind of speculation that I have little interest in, and which has no space in Wikipedia. [Edit: Lolcow most certainly falls into this category as well (please see the edit Homeostasis07 made to his original response for this to make sense). These Reddit/4Chan/Lolcow 'detectives' demonstrate the worst of the internet, i.e. "idiocy loves company"] However, I do agree that this discussion is going nowhere, and that it is in both of our interests to let it go for now. You are welcome to discuss this or related issues on my talk page anytime. For the record, I'm happy with the current versions of both Evan Rachel Wood's and Marilyn Manson's articles. TrueHeartSusie3 (talk) 11:39, 25 February 2021 (UTC)TrueHeartSusie3

I've only now just read this response. I'll point out first that I too have no interest in continuing this discussion. But for posterity, I'd also like to point out that my Lolcow comment above was in reference to Wood taking a screenshot of a Lolcow discussion between two purported Marilyn Manson "fans" to the LAPD, and later posting on Instagram as evidence that Marilyn Manson's wife Lindsay Usich was "conspiring" to release "underage" photos of Wood wearing a "Nazi uniform". So, no, I'm not a "Lolcow detective". Woosh. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:34, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

TV Show appearance

Starred on Season 3 Episodes 1 and 4 of American Gods on Starz. Nrd0527 (talk) 22:30, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2021

Remove this man from the world wide web please. NotAbuser (talk) 12:27, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done We don't delete people just because we don't like them. That's why Jimmy Savile is not a redlink. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 12:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Ambiguity

At § Abuse allegations, it says: "[...] they were investigating allegations of domestic violence against Manson." This is ambiguous, because of the 'violence against Manson' bit. I suggest changing "against" to "involving". (Or otherwise rewriting the sentence, however you see fit, to get rid of the ambiguity.) --143.176.30.65 (talk) 08:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Good call. I think I cleared that up. Look good to you? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:28, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Yep. --143.176.30.65 (talk) 18:30, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

“Smells Like Children” is NOT in the discography. Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021

2600:100E:B009:D70B:DC05:65D8:560A:37BF (talk) 00:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Smells like Children is not in the discography

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 03:02, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2021

Esmé Bianco has sued Marilyn Manson. Can the details at this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56951794 web page be added to the article. 2A00:23C6:3B82:8500:20F8:D8CC:ADCE:2D8F (talk) 10:04, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 May 2021

Since many people are confused of his gender, I think that we should note it under his date of birth, my only suggestion. SandboxThrowaway123214 (talk) 22:49, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm not sure what you mean by "under his date of birth". Reading the first two sentences in the article seems to give his gender, plus it's implied by the name Brian. Also, if you're talking about the infobox, note that it doesn't support a field for that. Bsoyka (talk · contribs) 23:50, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Abuse allegations in the lead redux

In the section above, the consensus seemed to be to wait on the question of whether or not to add the allegations to the lead. In the months since then, the headlines have very much continued (recent example from Rolling Stone: "Fourth Accuser Sues Marilyn Manson for Rape, Human Trafficking, Unlawful Imprisonment"), and there are zero signs that Manson will just skate by this, or indeed that his reputation will ever recover. I assert that mentioning the allegations is at this point unquestionably due. If others agree, someone more familiar with the story should try out some wordings and we should discuss refinements as needed. If others still disagree, I will be inclined to start an RfC to assess the broader community's consensus on this matter. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 18:39, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree, at least a brief sentence at the end of the lead is probably due now. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:50, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

@Sdkb: I also agree that it's WP:DUE for the lead. Some1 (talk) 22:34, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Some1, thanks for the ping; I had forgotten about this. I'll consider three of us here, with plenty of time elapsed, enough of a consensus to go ahead and restore the mention. I wish it hadn't taken this long (this feels to me like a pretty major WP:DEADLINEISNOW failure), but I'm glad we're belatedly addressing it. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:41, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

The point of this is? Your contention that "there are zero signs that Manson will just skate by this, or indeed that his reputation will ever recover" is your own conjecture, and blatantly UNDUE. Plus, using this brief and uninvolved discussion to add loaded text like "In 2021, multiple women accused Manson of psychologically and sexually abusing them.", without giving any WP:DUEWEIGHT to the counterargument and the gathering multitude of evidence to the contrary is telling. I'm reverting your edit. I suggest you either wait for genuine consensus, or initiate the RfC—if this is your attitude to editing controversial topics such as this – read WP:BLP – collaboratively. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:22, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

It has been a little more than a month and a half, and only four editors have commented so far. I think starting an RfC (on these two changes: abuse allegations in the lead and the title of the section) is a good idea. Some1 (talk) 01:41, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:56, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

It's a bad idea to start one RfC on two separate questions; that just muddles things. I've opened the RfC on the lead question below. As for your attempt to rename the "Abuse allegations" section "Controversy", I'm reverting back to the status quo, as I think that's a deleterious edit that introduces vagueness rather than being direct as we ought to be. Some !voters from below are likely to see this discussion and can weigh in on the section name, but please do not change the status quo again unless there is consensus for it. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:14, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting the section title back, Sdkb; changing 'Abuse allegations' to 'Controversy' seems like whitewashing to me. Some1 (talk) 22:59, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

RfC

Should the lead section of this article mention the allegations of sexual abuse against Manson? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:14, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

• Yes. There was initially some question over whether or not the allegations would stick enough to become a significant part of Manson's reputation, but a few months out, it is very clear that they have (see sources like [1] or just read the section in the article). We have a fully due section on the allegations in the body, and per WP:LEAD, that section ought to be concisely summarized with a sentence or so in the lead. This is the same thing we do for plenty of other biographies in similar circumstances. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:14, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
• Yes, the allegations against Manson are very WP:DUE [2]; and the lead should summarize the body of the article. Some1 (talk) 22:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
• Well yes, I suppose, provided it's done in a WP:NEUTRAL way, which the original edit failed to do on any level. I'd also appreciate genuine consensus on this matter, since both of these users above have been edit warring and WP:TAGTEAMING this article over the past 48 hours. I've tried to assume good faith on the part of these two users, but considering the comments on Evan Rachel Wood's Instagram account these past two weeks about "weaponizing" Wikipedia, much like she did on Instagram, I can't help but have genuine suspicions as to why this RfC is taking place right now. So, yeah... would appreciate all uninvolved commentary before any further changes are made to this article. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:22, 22 August 2021 (UTC)