User:Santasa99/sandbox25

Procedural wait for 6-8 weeks

The Duchy article is POV fork that seems to be merely a vehicle to acknowledge the existence of the title-phrase. Its entire content can be found in 4 existing more comprehensive ones: Stjepan Vukčić Kosača, Herzegovina, Zahumlje, and Kosača noble family. There’s virtually nothing about the "Duchy" in the article text that references used for the title-phrase are reused elsewhere in prose - these refs are used only in places where the title-phrase is inserted. Almost entire prose, except the title-phrase bits, is taken from above articles (without attribution) together with the attached references, but these refs do not mention or call the land in question the "Duchy", these sources call it differently. Personal noble title "Duke of St.Sabba" is coopted to create this article about the land that belonged to a person that wore that title. In short, all the refed sources used behind the title-phrase "Duchy of SS" has only a cursory mention in all of them, almost always mentioned in a single sentence, and more often than not espoused in passings by researchers form another field of history (i.e.not medievalists) or even another branch of science altogether, with no elaboration of it. This lack of historiography on the subject is all too obvious for a stand-alone article, with copy-pasted prose and refs from other articles. Since text already exists elsewhere and there is no need for merge, I am nominating it for deletion with a redirect to be linked to any of the existing articles. Sources checking

Sources checking (not for the board)

Sources used in "Duchy of Saint Sava" hereinafter "Duchy" (for the personal noble title "Duke of Saint Sava" hereinafter "Duke")

NON-MEDIEVALIST:

AUTHOR: Stanojević, Ljiljana - photo documentarian

• in The First Serbian Uprising and the Restoration of the Serbian State. (2004). Belgrade, Serbia and Montenegro: Historical Museum of Serbia.

Author mention "Dukedom" not "Duchy" but only in passing and in context of the events that took place some 250 years later (her book about events from 17th century)

AUTHOR: Zdenko Zlatar - Russian, East European, and modern European history

• in Our Kingdom Come: The Counter-Reformation, the Republic of Dubrovnik, and the Liberation of the Balkan Slavs. Boulder, Colorado: East European Monographs

Author mention "Duchy" twice but only in passing (refed as p.377 and p.414) - in both places he just mentions that certain 17th century primary sources (some 250 years later) mention "Duchy", however, Zlatar himself call the land Hercegovina; just like Stanojević Ljiljana above, this author writes on topic situated in different era, mostly 17th century and later.

• in Between the Double Eagle and the Crescent: The Republic of Dubrovnik and the Origins of the Eastern Question. Boulder, Colorado: East European Monographs.

Author mention "Duchy" but only in passing (refed as p.160) - here author mention another (or the same, it's hard to know!) primary source, again dating some 250 years after duke's land disappeared, a letter from 17th century in which its sender mentions "Duchy " - Zlatar does not mention "Duchy" anymore because he himself call the land Hercegovina; again, author writes on topic situated in different era, this time mostly 19th century and later.

AUTHOR: Djukanovic, Bojka - researcher in Anglo-Saxon–Montenegrin historical and cultural connections and influences

• in Historical Dictionary of Montenegro

passing mention of "Duchy" while describing history of Bay of Kotor: "By the middle of the 15th century, northern parts of Bay of Kotor became incorporated into the Duchy of Saint Sava" (p. 39), the whole issue of mistaken dating and attributing notwithstanding (see Sima Ćirković for how medievalists describe the situation)

AUTHOR: Donald Edgar Pitcher - MA in geography

• in An Historical Geography of the Ottoman Empire from Earliest Times to the End of the Sixteenth Century

It mentions "Duchy" in passing, in one sentence in very small paragraph on Bosnia (p. 71).

This one caught my attention for a moment as it seemed worth paying attention to, even though I had never heard of this author. But as soon as I started reading small paragraph on Bosnia (which include sentence on "Duchy") in the book and its reviews, it became clear to me why. The author received his master's degree late and died soon after, and this book is his master's thesis published by his widow. The reviews (I found 3) are mixed (from quite negative to quite positive), but notably this is a book in which author in very small paragraph on Bosnia (including sentence on "Duchy") claimed that Bosnia was "empire" which collapsed after Tvrtko I's death (I guess Tvrtko I was a czar or emperor?), that Hungarians and Serbs "encroached", that "Duchy of Saint Sava gradually(?) became independent from 1435, although title did not appear until 1446(?!)" (by the way, title appeared in 1449!), that Ottomans occupied Bosnia in 1436 (it was 1463); anyhow, small para but disastrous.

AUTHOR: Lovett Fielding Edwards - journalist and translator

journalist for major western news outlets, covering events as diverse as the 1941 bombing of Belgrade, Yugoslavia, the Greek Civil War, and the Arab-Israeli conflict; he was the author of numerous travel books, particularly on Yugoslavia, where he lived and worked for close to three decades between the 1930’s and the 1960s.

• in "Yugoslavia"

Author has written of Yugoslavia, and mention "Dukedom" not "Duchy", and only once, he writes: "In 1482 the Turks captured Hercegnovi and the Dukedom of St Sava ceased to exist" (refed as p.123)

However, Serbian doyen medievalist, Sima Ćirković, who had written unsurpassed historical biography of Duke of Saint Sava, Stjepan Vukčić Kosača, the very nobleman from the 15th century whose personal noble title is used to create this wiki-article on his land with contentious title "Duchy", has this to say about the fall of Herceg Novi (Hercegnovi) in his seminal book History of the Medieval Bosnian State:

1. Када је угарско појачање од хиљаду људи већ било на домак Новог, он је пристао по споразуму с Ајаз–бегом да преда своју кулу и пође с породицом у Турску. Тиме ј е сам својом вољом прекратио живот последње слободне и самосталне тачке која је остала од босанске државе." transl. When the Hungarian reinforcement of a thousand men was already near Novi [Hercegnovi], he agreed to surrender his tower and go with his family to Turkey, according to the agreement with Ayaz-bey. With that, of his own free will, he ended the life of the last free and independent point that remained of the Bosnian state." (p. 341)
2. "Poslednji samostalni ostatak nekadašnje bosanske države predstavljala je oblast hercega Vlatka Kosače." (Vlatko is a son of the first duke of St.Sava) ; transl. The last independent remnant of the former Bosnian state was the area of ​​Duke Vlatko Kosača.(p. 340)

CANON-MEDIEVALISTS:

AUTHOR: Sima Ćirković - medievalist, specialized in medieval history of Bosnia-Herzegovina and medieval history of Serbia

Ćirković has written historical biography of Herceg Stefan Vukčić Kosača, "Duke of Saint Sava, etc".

• in "Istorija srednjevekovne bosanske države" transl. History of the medieval Bosnian state

Author does not mention "Duchy" in his book, he calls the duke's land explicitly "Hum's Land" (Humska Zemlja in Serbo-Croatian) and after 1463 and the fall of the Bosnian Kingdom, Ćirković refers to duke's land, again explicitly, as Hercegovina.

Here's some excerpts on how Ćirković describes the situation around this duke and his land:

1. Када је угарско појачање од хиљаду људи већ било на домак Новог, он је пристао по споразуму с Ајаз–бегом да преда своју кулу и пође с породицом у Турску. Тиме ј е сам својом вољом прекратио живот последње слободне и самосталне тачке која је остала од босанске државе." transl. When the Hungarian reinforcement of a thousand men was already near Novi [Hercegnovi], he agreed to surrender his tower and go with his family to Turkey, according to the agreement with Ayaz-bey. With that, of his own free will, he ended the life of the last free and independent point that remained of the Bosnian state." (p. 341)
2. "Poslednji samostalni ostatak nekadašnje bosanske države predstavljala je oblast hercega Vlatka Kosače." ; transl. The last independent remnant of the former Bosnian state was the area of ​​Duke Vlatko Kosača.(p. 340)

• in "Herceg Stefan Vukčić Kosača i njegovo doba" ; transl. Herceg Stefan Vukčić Kosača and his age

Author does not mention "Duchy of " in this book either, he calls the duke's land explicitly "Hum's Land" (Humska Zemlja in Serbo-Croatian) and after 1463 and the fall of the Bosnian Kingdom, Ćirković refers to duke's land, again explicitly, as Hercegovina.

It is interesting what Ćirković thinks about duke's personal noble title "herzog of Saint Sava":

1. "Uzimanje herceške titule od strane Stefana jedva da je imalo i onaj simbolični značaj koji joj se pripisuje, Stefan je formalno do kraja života ostao 'veliki vojvoda rusaga bosanskog'." transl. Stefan's taking of the herzog title hardly had the symbolic significance that is attributed to it, Stefan formally remained the "grand duke of of Bosnia state" until the end of his life.

AUTHOR: Veljan Atanasovski - medievalist, specialized in Bosnia and Dubrovnik

in Pad Hercegovine transl. Fall of Herzegovina

Reference in article is for pages between 126-147, which is a quite a range for a book on Google Books which does not have a Preview. However, it has From inside the book search box, so I tried any key-word search in Cyrillic script that I could think of, and it did not show me a thing, literally nothing on "Duchy". I searched for key-words in Cyrillic: vojvodstvo, vojvodstvo svetog save, herceštvo, herceštvo svetog save, sveti sava.

AUTHOR: Tamás Pálosfalvi - medievalist specialized in medieval Hungary and surrounding countries (including Bosnia)

• in "From Nicopolis to Mohács: A History of Ottoman-Hungarian Warfare, 1389-1526"

Author does not mention "Duchy" only personal noble title "Duke"

• in "A szentszávai hercegek Magyarországon"

Author does not mention "Duchy" he only mention personal noble title "Duke" and he calls duke's land "Hum", explicitly: "The event happened between the two dates (1444 and 1454), thanks to which at all we can speak of the princes of Szentsáva first in Hum, and later in the Kingdom of Hungary" (on p.115); after the fall of Bosnia author call duke's proper Hercegovina

• in "THE NOBLE ELITE IN THE COUNTY OF KÖRÖS (KRIŽEVCI) 1400-1526"

Author does not mention "Duchy" he only mention "Duke" and he calls duke's land "Hum", explicitly: "The fact that he could retain the estate of Hum, which seems previously to have been one of the appurtenances of Greben castle" (on p.131)

AUTHOR: Goran Behmen - researcher in law, and history of law in medieval Bosnia

• in "The Character of Law and Authority in Medieval Bosnia" (PDF). Survey: Periodical for Social Studies. 50 (1): pp. 197–212.

Author does not mention "Duchy" he only mention personal noble title "Duke" and mention duke's land of "Hum", explicitly in Duke's intitulation "Herceg was titulated in Latin charters from 1454 and 1455 as: “Nos Stephanus dei gratia dux Sancti Sabe, dominus tere Hulminis, Maritimarum Partium ac comes Drine et magnus Vayvoda Regni Bossine etc.”" - so, we see that Duke adopted the title "Duke of St.Sava" but nevertheless called his land Hum. (p.209)