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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. seicer | talk | contribs 19:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Paul Atherton

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Paul Atherton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

nn bio John MacReen (talk) 11:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Through my searches I discovered that Paul Atherton is running a campaign to raise funds for the National Centre for Domestic Violence by releasing his docudrama Silent Voices on DVD with all profits going to the charity - so I hope this deletion request is just coincidence.
  • This entry has been posted on Wiki for nearly 4 months with no issues. When The Ballet of Change was first drawn to my attention in November 2007 the online coverage was significant, it was mentioned on national radio sites, the online streaming of BBC news etc. which is why I believe it wasn’t marked for deletion in the first place and as the notes suggest in Notability is not Temporary “If a subject has met the general notability guideline, there is no need to show continual coverage or interest in the topic”.
  • However, over the course of time, much of that live news has now been removed from the sites and much of the printed news is of course, not on line.
  • The claim is that Paul Atherton was the first person in the world to be granted permission to use the Coca-Cola Billboard’s advertising hoarding to show a film on a world famous landmark.
  • I believe that cannot be in contest.
  • A quick search through Google using the term “Ballet of Change” brings the results of a variety of confirmation sources not least the sites owner (i.e. the Landlords of the Billboards) Land Securities on their Piccadilly Circus Lights Website Piccadilly Lights The British Film Archive at the British Film Institute where due to the notability of the film it has been secured in perpetuity at The BFI the acronym of NFA (stands for National Film Archive), The British Film Councils website Britfilms and in the listings magazine publication TimeOut, the industry standard magazine for the Broadcast Industry in the UK Broadcast and as it was Heritage Lottery Funded the funds can be proved to have been made from the source on the HLF website.
  • As such I would request the NfD to be removed.
  • I am the author of this article Amanda Paul (talk) 15:35 16 September 2008 (GMT)
(I have indented your comment, I hope you do not mind) Upon a second look on Factiva I found an article that mentions Paul Atherton: "Charities refuse proceeds of DVD", Hannah Jordan, 17 September 2008, Third Sector. I am not familiar with that source, but it could be reliable.
Anyhow, the problem we face is: do reliable third-party sources exist to allow us to write a Wikipedia article? I don't think press releases count as reliable sources and the "Silent Voices" link above appears to be a press release (I am happy to be corrected on this point). If the press covered the press release (and Factiva will give a good indication, covering many news publications, including printed news that is no longer online) then we would have reliable third party sources, but we do not currently.
One question to illustrate the problem, which reliable source exists stating that Paul Atherton attended Cardiff Business School? If we can't find a source then that should be removed immediately per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. This is also the case with the Coca-Cola information, please provide reliable sources.
P.S. I just realised that the reason I didn't find the Third Sector article last time is that the source is brand new! If there is coverage in reliable sources in the future then there is the possibility that an article is fine for Wikipedia.--Commander Keane (talk) 12:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hersfold (t/a/c) 00:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Commander Keene I appreciate your corrections. I am new to Wikipedia and have not had to defend my articles before - so your patience, understanding and corrections are much appreciated.
Many of my sources for both my articles this and the "Ballet of Change" will never have been or are no longer online - but I will happily provided them if you believe this helps.
The issue here though, must be, first and foremost, do the Wikipedians think the first person to have his film shown on a globally famous landmark (i.e. The Coca-Billboard in Piccadilly Circus, London) notable? If the answer to that question is No, then there is little point pursuing my lines of inquiry. In my opinion Paul Atherton's notability comes from his success at achieving a first - if The Ballet of Change is considered notable then by definition so does its creator and vice-versa.
Are we measuring notability merely by online press coverage at any given time?
For example, you asked where I sourced some of my references - Paul's University career was found in his Alumni magazine from Cardiff University and also referenced in the South Wales Echo (The National News paper for Wales) in 1996, which of course you wouldn't be able to source online.
HIs work career, such as his time at Prospect Television (at least in part) can be verified by an online presence Skillset arrange a "Lucky Break' at Production Show in 2002. However the remaining part of his career, Touch of Silk for instance was again referenced from the South Wales Echo South Wales Echo "Local business man rescues Revlon President" Pg 7 November 1994 , The Sun Newspaper "Charles props up Naughty Knickers" Pg 7 December 26 1994, The News of the World, News In Brief Pg 3 "Brief Encounters" November 23 1994 , BBC Radio Wales, News Article Broadcast October 16th 1994 at 11:00am, Vogue Magazine, Diary Editor Clarissa Brooke Turner "A Touch of Silk - Something to remember " April 1995 to name but a few, but back in 1994 none of these publications had an online presence and they don't make their back copies available through online search engines but does this make them any less notable or reliable.
These references can all be checked publicly (as I've done) they just require an investment of time and Money.
His PR career can be tracked through the trade publications of PR Week. Articles like "Capital Gold - A Case Study" Pages 16-17,5 May 1998, "Harvard appoints new Account Manager" Pg 5, 9 February 1999 and "The Telegraphs' Match of the Day" Pg 28 4 April 2000.
This brings us up to date. I notice Vasile states that this is not IMDb. However, IMDb's entries are rigorously researched by independent researchers and only allowed to be published when every fact has been checked (unlike Wikipedia). Is this not a reliable source under Wikipeadia's definition?
As for Silent Voices this is available on Amazon and as you rightly pointed out in the Charities Trade Publication Third Sector so I think enough reliable sources for that.
But back to the Ballet of Change, here are some of the references to the articles published at the time BBC News (closed the programme) – Friday 23rd November 2007 18:55 – 19:00, Evening Standard, Pg 2 "Piccadilly Lights up its own History" 23rd November 2007, London Lite Pg2 "Films beamed onto Piccadilly Circus Ads" 23rd November 2007, Time Out – 20th November 2007 Press Association "Historic Film Event" 20th November 2007, London Paper "Lighting up History" 21st November 2007, LBC – Announcements throughout the day and mentioned numerous times by Nick Ferrari 23rd November 2007, Capital Radio (covered by Johnny Vaughan on his morning show) Thursday 22nd November 2007 08:30 – 09:00, Colourful Radio – Arts - (30 Minute interview) Thursday 22nd November 2007 between 14:!5 – 14:45 and again I reiterate these can all be checked but most can no longer be found online.
I have the cuttings for al these articles in PDF formats if you want them, but you cannot find them online. Either they were time limited such as the radio shows or the news story never made it from print to online in the case of The Evening Standard.
This is the link to the BBC news site which aired the event "The Ballet of Change" but is no longer current - instead it is showing this weeks news - as it changes every week.
Thank you for putting this up in the United Kingdom related articles. I hope some wikipedians from the UK will be able to assist me in my quest.
I would also like to clarify that the press release on Land Securities website, is on their website and other than recording the event and naming Paul Atherton it has nothing to do with him. This proves that the owners of the Coca-Cola billboard not only acknowledge that the event happened but also that it was the first time a film had been shown there. Why is it a Press Release published by a globally famous company about a third party would not be established as a reliable source?
And finally, could someone please explain why The BFI (The British Film Institute), which caries the largest film collection in the world and as such is incredibly selective in what it accepts as contributions, wouldn't be acknowledged as a reliable source?
Again, I'd request the removal of the NfD.
    • I am the author of this article Amanda Paul (talk) 20:43 19 September 2008 (GMT)
  • Comment Amanda Paul I have sent you an email it would be great if you can email me a couple of reliable sources discussing Paul Atherton. I can not respond to your entire comment above, but on a couple of points... I was able to find in the Evening Standard "Piccadilly Lights up its own History", but there is no mention of Paul Atherton. Reliable sources that are not online are still entirely reliable. About the "Wikipedia is not IMDB" comment, I think the point is that even if a film is carried by IMDB, or the BFI, it does not mean that the producer will have enough reliable sources to create a Wikipedia article.--Commander Keane (talk) 03:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment::Apologies as I stated in my previous post I am new to this - I have discovered from a user that I had voted twice it was not intentional - I'd be grateful if you could correct anything I have done wrong. But I believe I've corrected it appropriately now.
No-one has yet addressed the question in regards to the British National Film Archive especially in respect to the notability guidelines in general notability .4 and also in terms of it being the first film to be shown on an advertising billboard (an accomplishment made even more significant by the fact that Coca-Cola gave up prime advertising time for it to be screened) in respect to other evidence of notability .5. As its is the nature of the films achievement and not the content of the film - many of the criteria normally associated with a film are difficult to apply. For instance as previously mentioned it did not and should not be expected to get a general release. The style of the film would not make it suitable for festivals or awards and would by definition never be reviewed (just taking into account of the size of the screen it was edited and broadcast on - it would make this an impossibility for a normal release it neither being 16:9 or 4:3 Formats).
DGG I refer you back to my previous post to VG in respect to reviews.
Commander Keane has requested the pdf cuttings I have referred to above by e-mail, which will be sent in due course. If he could confirm he's received them on Wikipedia I'd be very grateful and could you also please tell me where you were able to source the Evening Standard Article - Thanks.
It would be incredibly useful as part of this debate if Wikipedians would address the questions I have raised.
Are there any Wikipedians in the UK who could back me up - which leads onto another point. When we talk about Notability is it Global or Nationwide?
As previously stated in this discussion I believe this and The Ballet of Change: Piccadilly Circus's AfD entry are intrinsically linked. Is there anyway of merging the two discussions.
Thanks
    • I am the author of this article Amanda Paul (talk) 10:20 20 September 2008 (GMT)
  • Comment I sourced the Evening Standard using Factiva (subscription based) I can email the article to anyone who wants it, although it is rather short and does not mention the names of the films displayed. I do not trust what is said on Notability pages, at the end of the day all Wikipedia content must be able to be verified from reliable sources and notability is a result of this. Any notability guideline comes second to verifiability.--Commander Keane (talk) 11:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commander Keane can you please confirm that you have received my email - I had trouble sending it (File size 6MB).

In addition this may help with verifiability.

  • Comment An extract from the British Film Archive Collecting Policy to be found as a Download
4.2 Cultural significance
25. The overriding criterion for acceptance into the national collection of moving image material for the United Kingdom is that the work should be of cultural and/or historical importance to the British people, recognising the diversity of British communities.
26. Because this is the national collection of moving image material in the UK, acquisition of British-produced and British-related material will be prioritised over non-British material, especially for the preservation collection. However, much non-British material is also of cultural importance and some non-British material may be highly relevant to particular cross-cultural audiences for the reference collection.
27. The bfi does not aim to hold a comprehensive collection, even for British- produced material. It aims to collect works that have or had real cultural impact, or historical significance, or that are highly representative of production, society or cultural values, or which are valuable for educational purposes or as information resources for study. Examples include: - High quality productions, where the production values and treatment are of a high artistic merit or information content.
And of course we are not talking any advertising billboard - we are talking about one of the world's most famous billboards in one of the worlds most noted landmark. If this isn't regarded as a unique achievement then I think the scope of WP:MOVIE#cite_note-5 needs to be revised.
I believe there is talk of doing it at Time Square, New York, next year.
  • Weak Keep. Sources seem to exist and newby editor making good faith effort to address concerns. Clean-up and help them through sourcing offline material, and yes, press releases can be used as sources although independent coverage is preferred. Amanda Paul, you need to become familiar with Wikipedia:Citation templates, the links on the article, in many cases, should be coverted to a citation to support the content. -- Banjeboi 08:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Most (poor) references refer only to his work with the film. Any verifiable material can be merged with that article if it survives AfD. Tassedethe (talk) 08:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I have received a few pdfs from Amanda Paul and they tend briefly mention Paul Atherton in the context of the film The Ballet of Change so I tend to agree with a merger/redirect of Paul Atherton to the film's article if it survives. Incidentally, I don't understand the relevance of links to social networking sites (ie Bebo) above.--Commander Keane (talk) 03:35, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a lot of the references are to a different Paul Atherton, and the others mainly refer to the film. Delete and redirect to the film, if that is kept. Stifle (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment Commander Keane I would be grateful if you could confirm that the Google search PDF. I sent you clearly showed that LBC covered the news story and that The Museum in Docklands, London, acknowledged the event and screened the films and neither can now be found on the Internet. Also that you have the London Lite article I cited above has also been received and again cannot be found on the internet.
It should also be pointed out that Paul Atherton has made numerous television appearances not least, Junipers Production of The Great British Black Invasion for the UK's Channel 4, which as a contributor (he is the caricature in the hat and the scarf, Top Row third from the left), looks at Paul's history in relation to his mixed race heritage. A clip from which can be found at YouTube.
What do I need to do, if anything, to prove the other not-online sources I cited above?
Stifle could you please explain what references you believe not to be associated to this Paul Atherton. If you are doing a Google search could I recommend that you use "Paul Atherton" "Simple TV".
It should also be noted that Paul was asked to make a reading contribution to an Oxford University charity project called Reading for Life that included a select contributions list including Clive James, Tom Stoppard and Michael Horovitz.
-- Banjeboi Thanks for the advice. I'll attempt to tidy up this article in the manner you suggest this weekend - if it still exists!
  • I am the author of this article Amanda Paul (talk) 16:11 24 September 2008 (GMT)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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