Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-15 Sting (musician) trivia

Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
Wikipedia Mediation Cabal
Article	Sting (musician)
Status	closed
Request date	Unknown
Requesting party	Rossdv
Parties involved	Theoldanarchist, David Koller, Rviner
Mediator(s)	nkayesmith
Comment	requesting closure

Mediation Case: 2006-11-15 Sting (musician) trivia

Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

Request made by: Rossdv 00:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rossdv

Where is the issue taking place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sting

...

Who's involved?

Theoldanarchist, David Koller

...

What's going on?

During the 1996 tour, Sting invited fans on stage to sing with on Tour. This fact got a lot of attention on TV and in biographies. I stated that fact and included a link to a video of one of the highly publiszed event. This has been removed twice. I added the following to the 90's section. the latter of which, Sting would occasionally invite fans to sing with him on stage during the tour, including this well publicized duet in Vancouver, BC with Ross Viner.

...

What would you like to change about that?

Allow this fact to remain. It is certainly more of interest than Stings yoga teacher and certaibly at LEAST as interesting as the fact Sting was the inspiration for the character John Constantine in the Hellblazer comic book series.

...

Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?: ...

Mediator response

Status summary: Ross Viner's representation as more notable than other fans performing with Sting in the 1996 tour is supported by IMDB and a Sting biography, but Rossdv's intentions must be questioned: If he is actually Ross Viner, the edit may be removed, for reasons explained in Wikipedia policies. There is strong evidence to suggest that he is affiliated with Ross Viner in some way, as he is located in the same area (British Columbia), impersonated him on Wikipedia for a short period (although allegedly not in bad faith). He did not confirm allegations from the beginning that he was Ross Viner, but nor did he deny them, although recognizing them: "I'm surprised you need correcting on this but I wasn't plugging myself. In fact I never wrote an article about me." He did not correct anyone when they referred to him as Ross, although according to an email he sent me, his name is Ralph. Someone of the same username impersonated him on Youtube, and Ross Viner (as supported via private email) supposedly created his only account on Wikipedia on 1:21, November 16 2006, 9 minutes before commenting on the case on Talk:Sting - however, given the fact that this was 40 minutes after Rossdv's last edit, the fact that Ross Viner is extremely proud of his "brush with fame", and Wikipedia's high pagerank, this particular piece of evidence is not conclusive. --nkayesmith 06:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rossdv, please list a few reliable sources which confirm: 1) That this fact is notable and was discussed by the media.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.sting/msg/cbfc98c35ae7d006?q=Ross&start=10&hl=en&rnum=17

http://www.scarlet.nl/~gugten/s19960811.htm

http://brushwithfame.com/bioscan.php

http://www.stingus.net/forum/threads.php?id=1730_0_13_0_C

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnessjk.html

http://www.scarlet.nl/~gugten/s19960810.htm

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnesssa.html

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnessds.html

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnessfb.html

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnesste.html

http://users.sisna.com/clio95/stingnesssa.html

http://web.archive.org/web/19990820134956/members.home.net/rockyd7/rock_steady/

http://l.webring.com/hub?ring=goldsting

http://stingbns.freeweb.hu/stingoo/fan.htm

2) That the particular performer with Ross Viner is notable, as oppose to his other performances with fans. Thanks.

It was filmed by a television crew and televised on PBS, Muchmusic, Real TV, European TV. It is considered the most enthusiastic fan duet when he did this as you can feel Ross's excitement. Apparently Ross was the only fan to do it twice (New York?) but I cannot find that video. Email Ross, he can tell you for sure.

Is it possible to back up these facts with sources? Note that all of It would remove any confusion, and that you have not referenced any of the news sources you claim any of his duets with fans were publicized in. --nkayesmith 06:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well "Q" magazine printed the duet with Nate in Aug 1996. I remember reading that. Sting.com has archives of such articles but I think you have to be a member, which I am not. The province ran an article the following day (would have been aug 12) which I remember readingRossdv 07:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Nothing on the internet? This would make it easier, as having access to the original text of these articles might prove how this particular performance was more notable than the others. --nkayesmith 07:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is tonnes on the internet. I provided many. As for original articles, try sting.com. I can't access it. Maybe some other fan can (I am not a member).

I mean, on the internet and from a really reliable source, such as those you mention (magazines, newspapers, TV). --nkayesmith 08:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is from the official Sting site archives both mentioning the issue from original papers:

http://web.archive.org/web/20030416195413/www.sting.com/tour/re110896.html Rossdv 09:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Please clarify: are you related to Ross Viner in any way? If not, how do you explain this, which bears a suspicious resemblance to Viner's biography on IMDB.

Wait a minute. It just occurred to me. Did you look up his credits?

They BOTH appear here: http://imdb.com/title/tt0786528/fullcredits . If that doesn't convince you, nothing can.

No family relation. Not a fan so to speak but very aware of this event and was reminded of it recently and looked Googled him. I was surprised not to see it so I felt it should be included here. I didn't want to provide my real so I used the first thing that popped in my mind and some facts from imdb (it pops up immediately Google)

So you impersonated him, correct?--nkayesmith 06:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not really impersonated him. I purposely did not use his last name.Rossdv 07:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Yes, but you still haven't explained: this, which bears a suspicious resemblance to Viner's biography on IMDB. Do you claim to be someone highly, highly similar to Ross Viner (which I find highly unlikely, given the circumstances); if not, why did you use his personal information? How come the 'real' Ross Viner turned up, and made his first edit ever on Wikipedia with regards to this dispute? --nkayesmith 07:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're right but I did explain that earlier (i'm none of those things). I googled him and found that (imdb) info and just put it in. I didn't try and be him. Sorry but I really didn't think it was that important. It was spontaneous. I did try and change my username and info later but was not allowed (or couldn't figure it out).

To conclude, so you spontaneously impersonated him with good intentions, but no particular reason? --nkayesmith 08:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have to ask him why he "turned up". Maybe he looked up Sting here. Maybe he saw it in Google. Maybe someone told him. I don't know. I just tried "Ross Viner wikipedia" and it turned up. I mean certainly you think I'm him and I do not think I can do anything about that. I simply should have used a different name and info. short sited but again I didn't expect this much resistance.

You must see how it is a bit suspicious, though. --nkayesmith 08:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

certainlyRossdv 09:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Someone with the exact same account name also claims to be Ross Viner on Youtube. See this video. --nkayesmith 09:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh brother. Well that's not me and likely him (Ross Viner) from the text. But how do I argue it (should I?). No matter. I admitted to sillyly using his name but had no idea that would be an issue. I assumed the issue was whether what I submitted was interesting trivia like much of the content (isn't it?). I mean I am happy to try and convince you that the event is authentic since you have been asking for proof. But if you don't want to accept this because you feel he and I are the same person and "subjects" are precluded from submitting, then is there any point? There would be no satisfying. Is there?Rossdv 09:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Now I have just typed a whole bunch of replies that I lost because I guess of changed text here. Aggrivating

Finally, please list the proposed changes to the trivia section: I believe there are many?

Not that many. Just

in the 90's section the latter of which, Sting would occasionally invite fans to sing with him on stage during the tour, including this well publicized duet in Vancouver, BC with Ross Viner.

in the trivia section

During the 1996 Tour Sting often invited fans to sing with him "I'm So Happy" on stage, including this well publicized duet.

--nkayesmith 05:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It striked me as a lot more interesting than who (Danny Paradise) teaches Sting Yoga or reference to a comic book character. Those are interesting to some, sure but this is at least as interesting. watch the video yourself here. It's the only video out there of such duets so should be included. I don't care whether you use his name or not (which seems to be the issue, but again, Danny Paradise?). But share the video. It's so great. You have lots of Sting related links. He has a site devoted to his and other brush's with Sting at www.brushwithfame.com.Rossdv 06:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Are you offering a compromise? (That you would be happy if the name is removed) If so, list it below in the compromises section. --nkayesmith 06:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

okRossdv 07:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Theoldanarchist has really taken exception to this. Yet has no objection to Danny Paradise's name.

He then asked me to provide other people who have sang with Sting and if I could then it would be relevant (see Sting/talk).

So I did (as below) but now he is saying it "this is really growing tiresome... you have yet to prove the relevance or importance of this." Is everything in this Sting article important? Is the "Sting was the inspiration for the character John Constantine in the Hellblazer comic book series" important or relevant? Is his yoga teachers name relevant or important?

I provided what many consider an interesting piece of trivia most Sting fans enjoy. But because Theoldanarchist appears to dislike it, doesn't mean others will not find it interesting. It is certainly relevant since it involves something Sting did during the 1996 world tour. Of course you want the articles accurate and interesting but I didn't expect such resistance to this. Rossdv 07:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

Note: this case name has an extraneous "." which should be removed. --Ideogram 06:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --nkayesmith 06:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise offers

This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

Rossdv proposes the following change to the trivia section as a compromise:

During the 1996 Tour Sting often invited fans to sing with him "I'm So Happy" on stage, including this well publicized duet.

This still claims notability of Ross Viner's duet. --nkayesmith 07:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And that is wrong? I've sent many articles about Sting doing this. And the fact this was caught on video seems notable in of itself, doesn't it? If there are other videos' I'd like to see them.

No - just noting the fact, which has not been proven just yet --nkayesmith 08:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The video isn't fact enough? Do you fear it is CGI? A Sting biograpy isn't good enough? I don't understand, What do you need?

At the moment, I'm searching for more authoritative sources (to confirm that Viner's performance was more notable than the others), and waiting upon statements by the other involved parties. I suggest we resume discussion then. --nkayesmith 09:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nkayesmith proposes the following addition to the trivia section as a compromise:

During the 1996 Tour, Sting often invited fans to sign the song "I'm So Happy" on stage.

This would be a satisfactory for all parties, I think, except (maybe) Ralph. --nkayesmith 06:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

how about

During the 1996 Tour, Sting often invited fans to sing the song "I'm So Happy" on stage including this notable duet.

This excludes Ross Viner's name yet refers and shows this truly notable experience.Rossdv 22:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Can we close this now, seeing as Rossdv appears to have accepted the above compromise (the one proposed by me), or left Wikipedia? If Ross Viner's duet is notable, another user, in less suspicious circumstances will add it. --nkayesmith 10:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Wikipedia is based on consensus.

This trivia is well known in Sting fan circles, and among the more interesting fun trivia relating to the artist. There was even a website devoted to it. Given the fact it is mentioned in a Sting biography and airs on TV to this day I can see no reason why this is not applicable. Especialy if such triva as "Sting was the inspiration for the character John Constantine in the Hellblazer comic book series" or meeting his yoga teacher "Danny Paradise" or is a fan and frequent passenger of British Airways' supersonic Concorde. I mean, really. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rossdv (talk • contribs)

What about my questions? Why is this so resisted but the other things are fine?Rossdv 07:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)rossdv[reply]

There are so many questions because it is disputed. If you want to claim that the other facts are not notable as per policy, then that is a different issue, and you are welcome to do so - on the talk page first, and if you cannot come to a conclusion, try RfC, 3O and/or the Mediation Cabal. --nkayesmith 08:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In mediation environments it is fair to ask the "accuser" (in this case the disputers) why they feel differently. What they see as the difference. Then the mediator would decide if the disputers are consistent and reasonable or not, given the environment (IE this is a site full of trivia, therefore why is some trivia deemed TOO trivial (frequent concord passenger? and others not "an unusual event caught on film pertaining to the subject and was in the media a lot more than Danny Paradise or flying Concords).

The only reason they disputed it is because they thought of it as a "vanity edit" without thought to merit of the trivia.