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No, it has nothing to do with pedestrian traffic. Enclosed malls don't promote pedestrian traffic, they remove it. In Indy's case, as you've already said, there are no large competitors like Columbus has. Circle Center is what Indy has, and it just happens to be Downtown. I would argue that Indy is now in a much worse long-term position from an urban development perspective *because* it still has a downtown mall.
There are number of factors that contribute to a downtown mall/shopping district's demise in no particular order and not limited to Indianapolis:
1. Underestimating suburban areas/edge cities increasing urbanization/retail offerings
2. Dramatic changes in demographics of the area
3. Shifts in behaviors, attitudes, social awareness
4. Economic development or new developments that do not compliment the existing mall so that it is no longer a viable offering
5. The city was never larger enough or contained enough population density to support the mall
6. Difficult to navigate/not enough parking/crime
7. All of the above
Having an enclosed mall downtown is not a worse long-term position, as many cities both larger and smaller than Indianapolis have very successful shopping malls and shopping districts downtown. Two great examples are Salt Lake City's City Creek Center and Chicago's Water Tower Place.
No, it has nothing to do with pedestrian traffic. Enclosed malls don't promote pedestrian traffic, they remove it. In Indy's case, as you've already said, there are no large competitors like Columbus has. Circle Center is what Indy has, and it just happens to be Downtown. I would argue that Indy is now in a much worse long-term position from an urban development perspective *because* it still has a downtown mall.
What are you talking about? How does Circle Center not have any competitors? It is one of the smaller malls in the metro area. It's also odd to argue that enclosed malls aren't a benefit to an urban area. No, Circle Centre will not promote as much street life as there would be if every store in the mall were located on a Downtown street. But there is no way that Indianapolis would have all of the retail choices Downtown that it has without Circle Centre. Many of the stores found in Circle Centre don't generally locate in mid-size cities downtowns. You can see an example of this in the CBD of Columbus.
Because enclosed malls are meant to do one thing well: Keep people from going outside. They work much the same way as casinos do. People might have to walk to get to the mall itself, but once they're there, they're a lot less likely to be patrons of retail establishments that are not located within it. Having the mall will ultimately continue to be a drag on the rest of Downtown's retail vibrancy, and in turn, pedestrian vibrancy.
There are number of factors that contribute to a downtown mall/shopping district's demise in no particular order and not limited to Indianapolis:
1. Underestimating suburban areas/edge cities increasing urbanization/retail offerings
2. Dramatic changes in demographics of the area
3. Shifts in behaviors, attitudes, social awareness
4. Economic development or new developments that do not compliment the existing mall so that it is no longer a viable offering
5. The city was never larger enough or contained enough population density to support the mall
6. Difficult to navigate/not enough parking/crime
7. All of the above
Having an enclosed mall downtown is not a worse long-term position, as many cities both larger and smaller than Indianapolis have very successful shopping malls and shopping districts downtown. Two great examples are Salt Lake City's City Creek Center and Chicago's Water Tower Place.
You're making the argument that the mall itself can be successful, but that's not what I'm saying. Certainly, a downtown mall can thrive under the right circumstances. I'm just saying that outside of that mall, the surrounding area will have to try that much harder to succeed, and that's ultimately bad news for the overall downtown area. Too many studies have shown this to be true. I guess there can be exceptions, but judging by the construction level of Indy right now, which was discussed before, this doesn't appear to be the case of an exception.
What are you talking about? How does Circle Center not have any competitors? It is one of the smaller malls in the metro area. It's also odd to argue that enclosed malls aren't a benefit to an urban area. No, Circle Centre will not promote as much street life as there would be if every store in the mall were located on a Downtown street. But there is no way that Indianapolis would have all of the retail choices Downtown that it has without Circle Centre. Many of the stores found in Circle Centre don't generally locate in mid-size cities downtowns. You can see an example of this in the CBD of Columbus.
If your goal is street-level vibrancy, an enclosed mall is bad. If your goal is to attract a national retailer, I guess it's fine, but national retailers would eventually be more likely anyway with greater levels of population and foot-traffic.
Because enclosed malls are meant to do one thing well: Keep people from going outside. They work much the same way as casinos do. People might have to walk to get to the mall itself, but once they're there, they're a lot less likely to be patrons of retail establishments that are not located within it. Having the mall will ultimately continue to be a drag on the rest of Downtown's retail vibrancy, and in turn, pedestrian vibrancy.
Indianapolis is far enough north that its downtown side street retail establishment probably suffer in the winter time anyways. Since malls are fully enclosed and heated I would be willing to bet that they serve as a nice alternative in the winter time and probably pick up some of that would be lost foot traffic during the cold months.
Also, as another poster had mentioned, MANY of the stores located in Circle Centre Mall do not generally locate to downtown side street locations on their own. Most of the stores in there are only based out of malls. Were it not for Circle Centre Mall, many of the stores in the mall in downtown Indy would no longer be in downtown, instead they'd probably only be in the suburbs.
With the exception of the presence of Ohio State University and the obvious pedestrian traffic it draws, I'd bet that the pedestrian foot traffic in downtown Indianapolis vs downtown Columbus is largely the same.
jbcmh81, the point I've made earlier in which you missed is that if an enclosed mall is poorly designed with the lack of street level shops, restaurants etc. along it's perimeter with more access you won't have much activity along the perimeter for the most part. City Center failed at this while Circle Centre had more businesses along it's perimeter.
Again here's an illustration why City Center failed. When you have less infill and access along a perimeter of any building or mall for that matter your not going to give people any reason to hang out in these areas. Google street view isn't accurate because I can show you some areas of Manhattan that are quiet on a Sunday but for the most part (on most days and even nights) when you add more shops, rest., other accessible business along the perimeter of any block you will give more people a reason to hang out there.
For starters you need to fill the void. Infill and more infill...City Center basically had most of it's back turned along it's perimeter like a typical encolsed suburban mall from the 70's and 80's era. The Commons is now an open field with even more void making it worse. Here's how not to design an enclosed mall in any downtown. They could have at least renovated the mall. City Center had plenty of potential. I known because I've been there personally. I was disappointed when I found out that they were going to demolish it. Why give in to Polaris and Easton?
Source:http://www.dispatch.com/content/grap...ter/INDY_1.JPG
Two main reasons why Circle Centre's design as an enclosed mall is more successful:
1. Unlike City Center it has more accessibility to more businesses and interaction "outside" at street level along it's perimeter not just inside.
2. During the winter (unlike the Commons) people who walk along the sidewalk have to option of going inside Circle Centre when it's freezing cold or heavy down pour outside . When the weather conditions deteriorate outside people can still continue to shop and eat without going outside. Keep in mind that they have both outside and inside options. Why only have one option outside only when you have the best of both worlds.
Indy also has another pedestrian option. It's downtown sky walk system is used regulary. When it's 7 degrees or thundering and pouring outside more people have the option to use it to stay out of the bad elements when connecting to everything from the mall to the hotels or convention center or even Lucas Oil. Columbus lacks this. The sidewalk shouldn't be the only pedestrian option.
Source:http://www.ibj.com/ext/resources/IBJ...lkways-map.gif
After City Center was demolished 180 South Street was built along it's perimeter. You would think they would have learned from their earlier mistake. Again what's wrong with this picture? Most of the perimeter is walled up giving no reason to hang out here. Sure you have some shops across the street but not much.
They should have added retail or other businesses at street level along the perimeter of these buildings.
jbcmh81, the point I've made earlier in which you missed is that if an enclosed mall is poorly designed with the lack of street level shops, restaurants etc. along it's perimeter with more access you won't have much activity along the perimeter for the most part. City Center failed at this while Circle Centre had more businesses along it's perimeter.
Again here's an illustration why City Center failed. When you have less infill and access along a perimeter of any building or mall for that matter your not going to give people any reason to hang out in these areas. Google street view isn't accurate because I can show you some areas of Manhattan that are quiet on a Sunday but for the most part (on most days and even nights) when you add more shops, rest., other accessible business along the perimeter of any block you will give more people a reason to hang out there.
For starters you need to fill the void. Infill and more infill...City Center basically had most of it's back turned along it's perimeter like a typical encolsed suburban mall from the 70's and 80's era. The Commons is now an open field with even more void making it worse. Here's how not to design an enclosed mall in any downtown. They could have at least renovated the mall. City Center had plenty of potential. I known because I've been there personally. I was disappointed when I found out that they were going to demolish it. Why give in to Polaris and Easton?
1. Unlike City Center it has more accessibility to more businesses and interaction "outside" at street level along it's perimeter not just inside.
2. During the winter (unlike the Commons) people who walk along the sidewalk have to option of going inside Circle Centre when it's freezing cold or heavy down pour outside . When the weather conditions deteriorate outside people can still continue to shop and eat without going outside. Keep in mind that they have both outside and inside options. Why only have one option outside only when you have the best of both worlds.
Indy also has another pedestrian option. It's downtown sky walk system is used regulary. When it's 7 degrees or thundering and pouring outside more people have the option to use it to stay out of the bad elements when connecting to everything from the mall to the hotels or convention center or even Lucas Oil. Columbus lacks this. The sidewalk shouldn't be the only pedestrian option.
After City Center was demolished 180 South Street was built along it's perimeter. You would think they would have learned from their earlier mistake. Again what's wrong with this picture? Most of the perimeter is walled up giving no reason to hang out here. Sure you have some shops across the street but not much.
They should have added retail or other businesses at street level along the perimeter of these buildings.
As for Monument Circle, Columbus doesn't have any high traffic vibrant public space as centralized as this.
So far you have not provided any illustrative examples to support your argument.
Great illustrations and point. City Center Mall looks like a suburban mall plopped right in the middle of downtown. Suburban mall in urban environment doesn't mix. Circle Centre Mall is built into the existing buildings of downtown, it feels much more urban, which is why I think it's continued to thrive. Though they were both downtown malls the concept, design, and layout of both malls was VERY different. Had no idea City Center was THAT suburban looking.
As for Circle Centre taking away from other retail downtown TJ Max (which isn't part of the mall) has been successfully operating there for years. There are already plans for more stores (in other parts of downtown outside Circle Centre) downtown so your claim is false.
When it comes to street level vibrancy being successful you need "infill" closest to the street curb from the entrances consisting of more businesses. Here you have both inside and outside usage of space on these blocks than you do at Columbus Commons year around on a regularly daily basis. The more dense infill you have the better.
Source: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...rcleCentre.jpg
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