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July 22

Growing your own seaweed?

Has anyone ever heard of growing your own seaweed? Is it realistic? Is it possible? Does it have to use saltwater?--Dbjohn (talk) 08:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes (and yes, yes, yes)- seaweed is also called macroalgae see : http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=macroalgae+growing+saltwater+aquarium&meta=

If you want to grow seaweed it will have to be salt water, however freshwater macroalgae exist as well.83.100.250.79 (talk) 09:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

for biological questions try the science desk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.250.79 (talk) 09:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Many people grow their own weed. But, why would someone grow their own seaweed?--Quest09 (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they like getting blowjobs?83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

..which has what to do with growing seaweed? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

There are many different kinds of seaweed. Which did you have in mind? I suggest you read our article on growing your own seaweed.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

To eat? Feed fish? Because they think it looks nice? Simply as a hobby? There are lots of possible reasonsNil Einne (talk) 12:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Socks: cotton, polyester, spandex

I have two choices: socks with 80% cotton, 17% polyester and 3% spandex or socks with 83% cotton, 16% polyester, 1% spandex. One of both is also cheaper, but which one is the best quality? (if it matter at all).--Quest09 (talk) 11:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Quality is not strictly a function of materials. Why not buy one of each, wear them hard for a month, and see which you prefer? — Lomn 13:02, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, but polyester is more durable isn´t it? I can´t buy just a pair, I have to buy 3 of them at least.--Quest09 (talk) 15:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

In the long term the cotton will wear out first, leaving a net (literally) or polyester and spandex. The quantities of fibres make no difference, and the price is also relatively irrelevent. Nobody can tell from the info you gave which is better. You'll have to decide for yourself.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Those numbers are so close that they might be the same socks made by the same factory with different percentage estimates. Tempshill (talk) 16:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

use the touch test - personally I think there is so little in it that you are best served buying the cheaper and replacing more often - after the first wash all socks are basically equal. And given that some of the cheapest socks I have bought have been as good as the most expensive - I expect any price difference is due to mark up.83.100.250.79 (talk) 00:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Parole

Why is Julio_González_(arsonist) eligible for parole, but Madoff not? Quest09 (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The Bernard Madoff article states that parole was abolished under federal law in 1984. This article seems to be saying Gonzalez was tried under state law. Maybe that's it? (I don't know how American law works) AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Gonzalez was convicted of premeditated murder that does not involve special circumstances murder, arson and assault in state court. He was not tried by the federal government for any federal crimes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.110.200 (talk) 13:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

To be clear, although state law allows parole for most crimes, federal law does not. In a state court, it's possible to be sentenced to "30 years without parole", but if the sentence is "30 years", then parole is possible. Tempshill (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

And it's of note that there are a lot of factors in granting parole. In these particular cases, what Gonzalez did, while horrible, was an act committed while extremely intoxicated on just one night. What Madoff did was premeditated, done soberly and conscientiously over the course of decades. When considering whom would be more likely to commit more crimes if ever released, I would personally be more suspicious of the career criminal (in this case, Madoff) than the one who acted under an act-of-passion. Gonzalez will not be eligible for parole until he is in his 60s, incidentally. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:01, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, being eligible for parole under the law, and actually getting parole, are not the same thing. Charles Manson comes up for parole every so often, and it's like, Thanks for stopping by Charles, now back to your cell. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:13, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Back to the OP's question, it comes down to the Federal system in the U.S. The U.S. legal system is a two-tiered system; a national-level legal systems which handles violations of U.S. national law, and 50 individual state-level systems which operate independently from each other AND from the federal law. In many cases, the federal statutes are much stricter with regards to sentencing than comparable state-level statutes (as already noted vis-a-vis parole, but also on length of sentences). Another example which has been coming up alot is the comparison between Michael Vick's 23-month sentance for dog fighting violations vs. Donte Stallworth's 30-day sentence for vehicular manslaughter and DUI. The deal is, Vick broke a federal law and serves time based on the federal legal system's standards. Stallworth broke a State of Florida law and serves time based on Florida's legal system standards. Two independent systems, two different sets of standards. --Jayron32 05:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

One way to think of it, perhaps, is that state crimes are considered to be crimes against the state, and federal crimes to be crimes against the United States. When someone says, "Don't make a federal case out of it," they're repeating the conventional wisdom that a federal offense is pretty severe. Here's an oddity from way back: When JFK was assassinated, it turned out there was a federal law against threatening the President, but there was actually no federal law against murdering him. Thus when Oswald was being held, initially for the Texas crime of murdering a police officer, he would also have been tried for the murder of JFK under Texas law, rather than federal law. It's interesting to speculate on whether Texas would have sent Oswald to the chair, but Ruby's one-man firing squad kind of pre-empted that. It's also interesting to speculate on what the feds would have done with Oswald, and whether they would have done a better job of protecting him while in custody. Anyway, the JFK killing prompted the Congress to enact a federal law against murdering the President. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Loading Fountain Pen with any Ink?

I purchased a Parker Sonnet the other day, but forgot to purchase ink. Can I use any old fountain pen ink with it? Or do "slightly more expensive" pens demand higher quality ink? Acceptable (talk) 15:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Any pen-ink will be fine. I've got a nice Graf von Faber Castell pen and I use standard pen-ink with it and have had no problems from that. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

You mean Quink^TM ? You can use other inks, blood, whatever, not a problem.83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:07, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

No blood tends to clot and bung up the mechanism, also the attendant wooziness makes it difficult to write anything but a short note. meltBanana 19:20, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It would also be subject to spoilage, and might carry pathogens. Googlemeister (talk) 19:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

meltBanana, that's a really ambiguous sentence you wrote there. What it seems to be saying is that there is "no blood" that would clot in a fountain pen, so no matter what sort of blood you might choose (human, cat, ...), it would all be ok to use. But what I think you're meaning is "No, blood tends to clot", or even "No. Blood tends to clot". -- JackofOz (talk) 21:05, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Signing in blood is usually done with a quill pen, not a fountain pen. If your life includes enough occasions of this level of seriousness to warrant having a whole pen full of blood, get some expired blood from a blood bank. Donated blood is mixed with anti-clotting agents, to keep it liquid long enough to transfuse.

Ink-jet printer ink will also work.- KoolerStill (talk) 07:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Would a blood-bank actually let you take expired blood? Vimescarrot (talk) 09:21, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I bet it would make great fertilizer for plants

Which? Blood Blood meal or Quink ? 83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

• Back to topic: The first answer you've got was correct. The worst that could happen is that after not using it [the pen] on a regular bases would be dried ink build-up (mostly on and under the nib] and you would need to empty and clean it [I recommend distilled water even so clean tap water can do the job as well] which [the cleaning] you should to do anyways ones or twice a year.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Indian ink is full of shellac and will clog a fountain pen up,but I've used all sorts in my Sheaffer and Parker pens without problems.I don't think I'd risk gold or silver inks either....hotclaws 21:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you can dissolve shellac with a solvent, maybe lighter fuel (liquid), don't quote me on that.83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

UK Office and The Office

Is the The Office (UK TV series) like UK office work? I personally associate it much more with office work in Germany, however, perhaps it's just me.--Quest09 (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes. Much of the humour relied on the fact that the situations portrayed would be painfully familiar to British people, albeit exaggerated. That's why it had to be rewritten for the US market.--Shantavira|^{feed me}

It actually is pretty fine for the US situation as well. The US has its own particularities but the general dynamic between workers and managers is not terribly off, with maybe the exception of some of the particulars of their social outings. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Pretty accurate I feel. You may be interesting in the US movie Office Space, very funny and may be more pertinent to US office conditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 09:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Garage door opener

My garage door opener suddenly stopped responding to the remote controls and to the wall button. It will still activate and cycle the door if I unplug it and plug it back in (that is, if the door is open, it'll shut it; and if the door is closed, it'll open it). It's an old Stanley unit and the company is no help. There's no manual (physical or online). Any ideas? Thanks - Tempshill (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It sounds like you need to consult an electrician. Have you checked for loose connections? Otherwise my guess would be that the wall switch will need replacing.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I would have suspected the wiring, too, but the remote controls failed simultaneously. Tempshill (talk) 17:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The unplug/plug performance suggests some sort of reset action that comes after a power outage. Like you, I could not find a manual or even replacement remotes for the antiquated opener that came with my garage. I decided to replace the unit; you may not care to do that. --- OtherDave (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

These symptoms implicate the cojntrol board, which is a circuit board inside the overhead unit. Specifically, only the portion of th econtrol board that starts the open or close cycle: the rest of the circuitry on the board is working properly. you can attempt to clean the board with a strong blower such as a leaf blower just in case a bit of dust has creates a short, but thisis a long shot. It is probably easier and cheaper to replace the unit than it would be to find s replacement control board. However, if you have no money and no common sense and plenty of free time, you may be able to design and implement an alternative control scheme. clearly, you could just put a normally-on push button inline with the AC power to replace the wall switch function. Warning: don't try any of this unless you understand electricity and you have disconnected the unit first. -Arch dude (talk) 23:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

This surely won't solve the whole problem but as sometimes two different things go bad almost the same time (and believe me, it happened to me more than ones) you might want to check if the battery in your remote has a good contact/connection as the receiving clips that hold it in place. They could be worn out so that there is not enough tension. If so just try to carefully bend them a little towards the battery by taking it [the battery] out and using some needle pliers to do the job.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:41, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

What is a kogatana exactly?

I can't find what a kogatana (小刀, also read as shōtō) exactly is. The Northern California Japanese Sword Club, founded by John M. Yumoto, says they are often called Kozuka blades (kogatana entry). Both kogatana and kozuka are mentioned on Japanese sword mountings. When searching the site for kogatana, the katana article tells me that the kodachi is also called a kogatana. But the kodachi article says no such thing. So, what is it? ~Itzjustdrama ^{? C} 17:43, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

From what I can gather from this site and Japanese sword mountings and my knowledge of kanji... Kozuka seems like it's the handle of a Kogatana, which is just a small knife residing in a scabbard or a wakizashi. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

My dictionary says "small knife or short sword," which is what I would have expected from the kanji. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Weight of a bale

How many pounds are there in a bale? Carol3544 (talk) 18:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there a specific unit of measure called the 'bale', or are you thinking of a bale of some material (cotton or hay, for example)? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

If you are referring to a hay bale, there are several standard sizes that can be anywhere from about 50lbs up to over 2,000 lbs. A bale of cotton is more like 500 lbs after ginning. If I had to guess, I would put Christian Bale at 170 lbs or so. Googlemeister (talk) 19:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly more cotton than can be picked in a day. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 21:57, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Huddie William Ledbetter: [1] Bus stop (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

www.convertunits.com reckons that 720lb = 1 bale and several other web sites cite that Egyptian cotton is packed in 720lb bales. --TrogWoolley (talk) 22:14, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Russ Rowlett's excellent site on units of measurement has:

bale (bl) [1]: a bundle of merchandise, usually pressed and bound in some way. The word "bale" has been used in many ways to describe standard packages of various commodities. For example, a bale of paper is traditionally equal to 10 reams. In agriculture, a bale of hay is generally a huge round bundle left in the field until needed; these bales can weigh up to 1500 pounds (700 kilograms). In U.S. garden shops, a bale of straw is typically 3 cubic feet (0.085 cubic meter).

bale (bl) [2]: a commercial unit of weight for shipments of cotton. In the United States, one bale of cotton, formerly equal to 500 pounds (226.80 kg), is now equal to 480 pounds (217.72 kg). The British used the Egyptian bale, formerly equal to 750 pounds (340.19 kg) but now equal to 720 pounds (326.59 kg). Other countries use a variety of cotton bale weights.

--Anon, 01:00 UTC, July 23, 2009.

Googlemeister, you have apparently not seen Christian Bale in The Machinist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.214.92 (talk) 15:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Tote that barge / Lift that bale. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 02:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Couples sharing expenses

What is the most common way between partners that don't earn the same? Each puts a % of their salary or one partner has to live under its level?--Quest09 (talk) 19:53, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

That would depend on what kind of partnership you are talking about? Is it a business partnership? Romantic relationship? Something else? Googlemeister (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I think "couples" implies the romantic variety of relationship. But let the original questioner clarify. Bus stop (talk) 20:25, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Usually a couple considers their finances part of an overall household. So it's not that one is living "under its level" if their funds contribute to the household. You don't do your finances as a couple as if you were two single people who just happen to live together. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 20:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Keep in mind that money is not the only thing of value that is brought into a relationship. The "traditional" setup of a breadwinner financially supporting a homemaker does not mean that the homemaker is living "above their level". Indeed some studies have concluded that the value of the cooking/cleaning/childcare/administrative services which a homemaker provides can equal or exceed the value of the money which the breadwinner brings in. I haven't done a survey, but I'd guess that a large number of couples (especially "traditional" ones) function on a communal property type system - that is, it's not "your money" or "my expenses", but "our money" and "our expenses". -- 128.104.112.87 (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Which is also, incidentally, how the law usually treats married income, if I am not mistaken. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 00:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

If you're committed enough, just treat all income as "our income". Just with every other form of trust in a couple's relationship, both parties should have trust in the other as to how the money will be spent and how the bills will get paid. Dismas|^(talk) 00:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The question was what approach is most common. Statistics, people, statistics! There must be surveys or studies on this out there. (No, I don't know of any myself.) --Anonymous, 01:03 UTC, July 23, 2009.

Oh - it's all too easy. My wife an I have settled in on a simple, easy to understand rule: I earn the money - she spends it. :-( SteveBaker (talk) 03:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you heard about the guy whose credit cards were stolen? He didn't report it, because the thief was spending less than the wife had been. [] Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I took the liberty of inserting the rimshot as requested. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Cohabiting couples have a stronger tendency to keep their finances separate, if both are earning; some may have a joint fund for certain household expenses.There usually won't be differences in "living level" in terms of food, heating etc but may be differences in spending on clothing, going out etc. Married couples tend more to pool income, that is where, who by and on whom it is spent is separated from who earned it (even if only the husband earns). The wife's income is more likely to be not pooled if it is a small percentage of the total (but she may be the major spender of the pool or main income). In higher income families, the higher the woman's share of the total income, the higher the likelihood of her controlling the whole pool. Generally all members get equal benefits regardless of percentage contributed. This is from numerous studies in various countries, summarised here - KoolerStill (talk) 10:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Partners' economic arrangements are strongly influenced by their separate statuses when they meet. One may have a study loan to repay, another may have a house mortgage to repay... Since these are contractual obligations to 3rd parties the couple will have to decide whether to share the repayments or not. If on meeting one is much wealthier than the other, the former is very likely to seek protection of their fortune by means of a prenuptual agreement, or at least take a dominant röle in spending decisions, while the latter would be wise to encourage gifts of diamonds. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

My wife and I slipped into joint account banking gradually. When we lived together before getting married, we started off splitting the bills 50/50 - but after a few months - we me earning twice what she did, I decided to rearrange the bills so that we both had the same "disposable" income - which meant I was paying most of the bills - but we both had the same amount of money to spend on whatever. When we got married, in a fit of "now we're together"-ness we decided to just have a joint bank account and put earnings from both of us into it and pay bills and everything else out of it. THAT was a big mistake. The problems are subtle - but things like being unable to feel good about buying your partner an expensive gift because in reality she's paying for half of it. Never feeling like you can spontaneously treat yourself to something nice because she's paying half. I really wish we'd stuck with splitting the bills so that we both had the same disposable income...but somehow now we're where we are, it's a pain to change back. SteveBaker (talk) 02:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware that this is OR, but many of my friends who have gotten married or are in long-term cohabiting relationships have both separate accounts and a joint account. The joint account (into which each partner pays a fixed sum every month) is for things which are joint (house mortgage/rent, domestic bills, food), anything else is done separately. Of course, the definition of "joint" is up for debate... — QuantumEleven 11:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

No legal advice, but depending on local laws separate accounts can become a pain when one partner passes without a will. In extreme cases governments have been known to run off with part or all of the money. Check carefully.71.236.26.74 (talk) 08:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

When my marriage ended (amicably), some months went by before we bothered separating our bank accounts, whereupon we both said, "I thought I was ripping you off!" —Tamfang (talk) 06:56, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

July 23

Font of Adler cars' logo

What is name of the font used at Adler's advertisement, for example here: http://www.cartype.com/pics/174/small/adler_stromform_brochure.jpg --85.23.6.84 (talk) 08:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You may like to try this site or one of many others you will find by Googling 'font identifier'. I haven't tried it, so I don't know how good/bad it is, but you can give it a go. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It's bad and most sites like that are bad. They do a horrible job. Avoid them! You are better off answering somewhere like this where people who know fonts or are willing to wade through them reside. The automatic ones just don't do a good job at all. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow "economical, fast, roomy, economical (again) and streamlined" - I must get one of those. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:36, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Try Futura Eugenia. Fribbulus Xax (talk) 11:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

It's Futura Black. (Futura Eugenia is a re-styled version of Futura Black done in the 1980s). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 12:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

BBC iPlayer

Is it possible to watch BBC iPlayer from outside the UK using a UK-based proxy, and if so, how? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 10:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I know people who do it. But I don't know how, sorry. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Subscribe to a UK proxy and set it up in your webbrowser? You can also use a VPN or something similar although that would usually affect your entire connection. I would only sign up for a month at first so you can try it Nil Einne (talk) 12:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

where is 62n 43w

tbc —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mobilemickey (talk • contribs) 13:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Greenland. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Height of mountains

If sea levels rise by hundreds of feet in the next century due to global warming, will all of the world's peaks be officially shortened by a like amount? Wouldn't the air pressure at the top increase slightly, making ascents easier? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.214.92 (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The current sea level rise is measured in millimeters per year; if the sea level rises by "hundreds" of feet in the next century then I don't think anybody will be in a state to care about the fluctuation of this measurement. I don't have any math to back this up, but the air pressure at the top would indeed rise slightly, though the rise would be so slight that it would not be significant with regards to your ease of ascent. If the seas were to rise by 200 feet and you're at the altitude formerly known as 20,000 feet, then the air pressure would approximate what it used to be at 19,800 feet. Actually it would be less, because of the volume increase needed to fill the larger space of a larger sphere. (It takes more atoms to cover the sphere that is the outside of an orange /than/ to cover the sphere that is the inside of the orange's peel.) Tempshill (talk) 16:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

According to our article on sea level rise, the IPCC currently estimates a maximum sea level rise of 880mm, or about 3 feet by 2100. So the atmospheric pressure increase on top of mt everest will be minuscule. Googlemeister (talk) 16:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

By then they will have built a paved road to the top of Everest, which ought to make things easier. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe not, since we are likely to run out of asphalt. Marco polo (talk) 00:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

And it is not too likely that your standard car would have the ability to run at such low air pressure and oxygen. Googlemeister (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The IPCC's estimates are rather conservative; more recent estimates have produced figures of 2 metres of sea level rise or more possible by 2100, especially if places like West Antarctic Ice Sheet start melting. Likewise, melting of glaciers could cause some mountain peaks to become "lower". ~AH1^(TCU) 04:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Need knowledge about car repairs

92 Pontiac Bonneville - the SES light was on and he said that it can be two things: 1 - "loose connector" 2 - "camshaft position sensor magnet" If the magnet is fine, then he will charge me $220 including labor. If the magnet is not fine, he will charge me $550 including labor.

The mechanic says that if I don't replace magnet if it is broken, he said that it could go into "stall condition".

Please Help! He is talking Greek to me and I don't know what this means! --Reticuli88 (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

We've got some excellent car people here, and I hope they're able to help out, but here are my two cents: ask the mechanic to explain. He's the one you'll be paying and he's got the most knowledge about the situation. Get him to walk you through why the costs are what they are (is it a $300 part or is there additional labor, for instance). Have him explain what the consequence of a "stall condition" is. And if he won't, go to a mechanic who will. Getting an independent opinion is never a bad plan, but a good mechanic won't leave you in the dark. — Lomn 18:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Whilst seconding Lomn's advice, here's a useful article on the meaning of an SES light. In short the SES light illuminates when the onboard computer gets out-of-range data from a sensor. The car will do one of two things in such a situation: continue to work whilst illuminating the Service Engine Soon (SES) light; or else in addition to the SES lamp illumination, behave erratically - such as by running roughly or stalling - as a result of the out-of-range data. The "stall position" to which the mechanic refers is a condition in which the engine literally stalls as a result of, for instance, ignition timing being affected by bad data coming from the crankshaft (so that, for instance, the ignition system is being led to believe that the piston is in position A, ready for ignition, when in fact it is in position B, not ready for ignition.) By way of example, here is a General Motors recall notice discussing this very issue. As to the costs, other than doing the work yourself, your only option is to shop around. At first glance the costs do not seem to be wildly unreasonable; a loose connection should take less work and fewer parts than having to open up the crank case to get at the internals, and/or replace the entire sensor. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

One thing you can do by yourself is to disconnect the battery for a minute or two to reset and then start the engine to see if the light comes back on. Works not on all cars and models but you could give it a shot.If it stays on I would follow Tagishsimon's advise. --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Going to America from England

Assuming I've never left England since birth, what would I have to do to get to America for a visit? I don't necessarily want you to give me all the info (though that would be great!); if you don't want to, could you tell me who I'd ask or where I'd go to find out how to do this? Vimescarrot (talk) 18:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You'll need a current Uk Passport, you'll need to go here (http://www.visabureau.com/america/esta-visa.aspx) and complete a Electronic System for Travel Authorization as the UK is in the 'visa waiver program' for the US. All this assumes you mean the USA when you say America - if you want to go beyond the borders of the US (e.g. Canada, Mexico, any of South America) you'll need to check the requirements for those countries. Essentially go to the 'tourist info' website of the country you want to visit they'll detail what you need to do to gain entry to the country. The US doesn't (or didn't last time I went) charge for entry to the country - unlike places such as Turkey (at least when I went) and Mexico. ny156uk (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, USA. Thank you. Vimescarrot (talk) 18:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You also need to be able to persuade the immigration officer that you're really there to visit, and not planning on staying forever, making yourself a financial burden on the state, and working illegally. Mostly that just entails a return ticket, a credit card, and enough currency or travellers cheques to support yourself. In practice if you have a valid (for a year or so) passport, a return ticket, and don't look like a drug addict you'll find entry into the US entirely routine. That visa waiver program that Ny156uk mentioned (wherein you fill out an I-94W form on the plane) gives you 90 days; if you need more then you do need to apply for a US visa (which can be done by post; your local AA shop or travel agent can help a lot) and does cost (but not very much). 87.114.144.52 (talk) 19:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, (if not outdated and I don't believe so) you should be able to give a destination where you will stay (at least initially) if possible. Can be a hotel reservation or private address like from a friend or family.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 19:59, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I second the Magnificent Clean-keeper. When I went to Florida a few months ago, I was blindsided when customs asked for my destination address. I had to call my dad to look it up for me, and as it was 6:30am, he wasn't too pleased. Make sure you have it written down and handy. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Border officials almost always ask "What is the purpose of your visit?" Assuming that you want to have a look around, the best answer is "sightseeing" or "a holiday" (the American word is "vacation", but I'm sure they understand "holiday"). What they do not want to hear, and what could cause you trouble, would be to say that you want to look for work or are thinking of living here. (I'm in the States.) For those purposes, you would need a residence visa. The next question is usually "How long will you be here?" If it's a week or less, they may ask to see your return ticket and will probably move right on to "Where will you be staying?" They will want the address and the nature of the establishment, for example a hotel or a friend's house. If you are staying longer than a week or so, they will want to know how you are going to pay for your visit and maybe want to see some evidence that you have enough money to cover it. (Couldn't hurt to bring a bank statement if you plan to use ATMs.) They may also ask if there will be any other stops on your trip. Those are the usual questions. When you get through the border officials (officially known as "Immigration"), your next stop will be the customs desk. Unless you are bringing in alcohol, tobacco, thousands in cash, or valuables that you intend to sell or give away, you have "nothing to declare" to customs. They still might select you for a spot check and pull you aside to look through your luggage. Don't worry about it unless you are carrying something you don't want them to see (which is a bad idea in the first place.)

Obviously, you will also have to purchase a ticket (typically a plane ticket) to get across the ocean. You will need to show your passport to the staff before boarding the plane (or ship). Marco polo (talk) 22:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I can reiterate the importance of having an exact destination address, or at least a hotel name, for the immigration form you fill out on the plane. I read a newspaper column written by a Canadian who didn't have the exact address of the house he was to stay at in New York. The immigration officer got all fussy, he snapped back and the next thing he knew he was in a holding cell being threatened with arrest or a permanent ban from the U.S. That's another thing -- don't talk back to the immigration officers. Oh, and remember that in the U.S., you're supposed to tip waiters 15-20%, and if you don't, people will think you're a real jerk. The waiters are paid less than minimum wage because the law assumes people will tip them 15-20%. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

One more point: the US (like many countries) will not let you bring a range of foodstuffs into the country. Bovril is banned, for instance, whilst Marmite is fine. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Bovril is a meat product, and those are pretty much out. You can't bring in haggis, for example. Marmite is OK, because there are no special regulations about adhesives. PhGustaf (talk) 23:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

About tipping waiters, what Mwalcoff says is basically true. The same is true for cab drivers and barbers, by the way. There is an exception, though. If service is poor, you can tip less, like 10%. If service is terrible (they forget your order or spill things on you and don't apologize) you are entitled not to tip at all. Marco polo (talk) 00:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Um, let's be a little careful here. You tip cabbies and barbers -- but not 15%. Knowing just how much to tip is tricky, but they don't usually get tipped at waiter rates. I usually tip the barber a buck or two on an $18 haircut, and I'm always just guessing in cabs because I don't take them much. --Trovatore (talk) 10:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I never tip nothing at all. If I think the service is abominable, I leave a penny, so they know I didn't just forget. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 01:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

So long as you're coming on a well-planned holiday trip - you have money and passport, some place to stay and a plane ticked home with a firm return date - they're going to let you in. You can make the entry easy on yourself by having all of that information written down and tucked into your passport (you're going to be tired, confused and jetlagged). For don't attempt humor with the customs and immigration people - they don't seem to like it. For chrissakes NEVER tell them you plan to work here...even if it is obviously a business trip, tell them you're going to a sales conference or something where you aren't earning money.

Don't bring food or anything in any way "iffy" through customs/immigration. There are some things that are allowed - but a confusing and complicated list of things that aren't - so bring nothing. I once came over on a business trip on which my boss brought a sandwich with him in his briefcase because he doesn't like airline food - and didn't eat it on the plane. When the sniffer dog got excited about it - I sailed through immigration and customs - then had to sit in the arrivals hall for 90 minutes while my boss as pulled out of line and left sitting around alone in a windowless room for an hour for no readily apparent reason! There are worse horror stories - but they are very VERY rare.

Just be polite and as helpful as you can be - and it'll go smooth as silk.

Strong advice: Bring credit cards - most UK cards work OK here and they are the only way to pay for hotel and rental car - they literally won't take a cheque - they won't even take cash! Visa and Mastercard credit cards work in cash dispensers - everywhere takes them. I almost never use cash anymore. SteveBaker (talk) 02:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Probably best to avoid certain topics when talking to Mr. Customs Man; such as your recent release from prison; your side business as a drug smuggler; and your "friend" who knows Osama bin Laden personally. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Or the fact that you were a Nazi spy between 1933 and 1945? [2] AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

And don't make jokes with the officials, they (officially) don't have a sense of humour. -- SGBailey (talk) 08:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There are often signs to that effect. Both at customs and at airport security. APL (talk) 13:14, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. You're all epic. If you've got more to add feel free, but I won't continue to respond unless I have questions. Thanks again! Vimescarrot (talk) 09:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Another notable point: if you're visiting the big cities of the east, or San Francisco, or (maybe) Las Vegas then you don't need a car, and one is mostly a liability. For the rest of the country, cities included, a car is essentially mandatory. -- 87.114.144.52 (talk) 10:52, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The situation for many non-USA nationals is 1) You are refused an entry visa to the US until you have proven that you don't intend to enter the US illegally 2) You must do this by attending an interview at the US embassy in your own country, and you pay $100 for the interview 3) The burden of proof is on you and the instructions to interviewers are to treat everyone initially as intending to enter the US illegally 4) This applies even if your only purpose in entering the US is to change flights and you show prepaid air tickets as evidence 5) Signed statements from people that support you, including US citizen(s) who promise to provide you with money and housing, and who vouch for your travel plan are to be ignored 6) The interviewer's decision is final. You never get your $100 back and if refused you can only request another interview which will incur a long delay and another $100 from you... (and so it goes on but by then your prepaid flight is long gone) 7) One US embassy (Oslo) says you will get a visa refusal in writing with a reason and another US embassy (Guatemala) takes $100 and gives refusals (twice) but nothing in writing. Proviso I don't wish to give misleading information so I am willing to redact with apology any error found in what I posted. I am not a Guatemalan but anyone can see this US policy makes it almost impossible for a normal wage earning Guatemalan to visit N. Europe because the affordable flights all change in the US.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

User:Vimescarrot claims to be British - and has never left that country. None of the things you describe are necessary because there is a bilateral treaty to allow Brit's to go to the USA on short vacation trips without a visa or a visit to the embassy or $100 and Americans to have the same privilage when entering the UK. There are a few exceptions to that - which I think relate to people who have recently been in jail or something like that. It's worth checking the Visa Waiver stuff online - but 99% of Brit's don't need a Visa to come to the USA on vacation. However, not all countries have that agreement - and for them, yeah - expect a lot of messing around with embassies, interviews, money and fingerprinting.

I came here to the USA to work for a year (which has since turned into 16 years and counting!) - so the Visa Waiver thing didn't apply - and the grief I got at the US embassy in London was quite impressive! When I came back to the UK in a hurry because my father had died - I stayed in the UK for just barely a week and then returned to the USA - I didn't realise that I had to check back with the embassy in London again - and I was held up at DFW airport for an hour and fined over $100 before they eventually let me go home to my house in Dallas. SteveBaker (talk) 01:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

If you go to american city

You will find it very pretty

Just two things you must beware

Don't drink the water and don't breathe the air -- Tom Lehrer

Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That was true in 1965, but thanks to the EPA, it's much different now. That might be more applicable to industrial cities in China, for example. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 13:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

"That" being the whole paragraph, or the poem at the end? Vimescarrot (talk) 14:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The poem. The situation for Britons is quite different from the situation for Guatemalans though, as Britons visiting America are likely to be eligible for the Visa Waiver Program. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There was a mention above about not making jokes. Some airports do even have NO JOKES signs near the security screening points. The specific reason for this is people making jokes about bombs or planes exploding. If someone says "Haw, haw, yeah, like my cigarette lighter is going to make the plane EXPLODE! Haw," then the security screeners are supposedly obligated to treat this as a threat, and you get dragged off for special interrogation. This is probably not as bad as walking through Heathrow, dropping your satchel on the ground, and running away at top speed; but you should try to remember NO JOKES in the humorless American airports. Tempshill (talk) 18:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Joking at the airport. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

(Post crash, some of this may be double) You don't need a private address. The address of a hotel will suffice. You also don't need to hand in your entire travel itinerary. One address will do. The ESTA thing has teething troubles and you'll probably still be asked to fill in a green visa waiver form [3]. To avoid having to rummage around put a ballpoint pen and a scrap of paper with the following information in a place that you can easily access during the flight: Your passport number. The flight number and the date when you intend to leave the US. The last you won't need to fill in the forms, but the immigration officer will ask you that. There are variations of "how long", "how many days" and "till what date" with that question. Also keep a list of contact phone numbers handy. Avoid having any business cards in your passport. That almost guarantees you'll be singled out for additional questioning if the agent finds it. If you are visiting relatives/friends you can bring in gifts for them. You'll have to fill in this form [4]. The description can be general and you are permitted to buy your gifts at dollar stores and outlets. The maximum amount you can declare without hassle is $100. (Surprisingly many gift lists add up to $99.95 as one customs official once remarked. Clearly coincidence :-) A tad over is usually not a problem. If it's a lot more it depends on the item whether they'll ask you to pay customs. It's entirely up to the agent, but they'll then charge customs on all items you listed. If you want to bring in any foods check this out first [5]. Trying to bring in plants or seeds is a pain you don't need. So leave floral bouquets at home. If you are taking medication bring a prescription from your doc. It's best to bring a sufficient supply for the duration of your trip from home. Alcohol laws are many and vary by county (i.e. small local areas). In general a closed bottle carried packed as a gift should not be a problem, but there are places that are quite what you'd call "pissy" about it. Kinder surprise eggs are another surprising no-no [6] Check this site for more information. [7] Not listing things you bring in can get you into a lot of trouble. They do spot checks and you'll face a lot of delay, nasty remarks and possibly other trouble if they find something. On the flight wear comfortable shoes that are easy to take on and off. You'll have to go through scanners in your socks. (Take a pair of in-shoe socks to slip on/take off if you are squeamish.) Make sure all metal on your body is easy to remove or don't wear it for the flight. (Don't forget your belt buckle and things like that.) What IP 87 said above about the immigrations officer trying to make sure you're not entering to work and can support yourself is true. Remember that that includes non-paid and charity work (strangely enough). However, a visa for more than 90 days can not be obtained by mail. You file an application by mail and then get an appointment for an interview at the consulate for your area. It takes time and isn't cheap. There are companies that offer to assist you for a fee. IMHO that's a scam. At best they'll help you filling in the forms and tell you what documents to bring to the interview. (Which is every sheet of paper that will support the case you are trying to make.) At worst all they do is stuff your application in an envelope and charge you an arm and a leg. Some of the visa application procedures (e.g. invoicin

Yeah - I agree 100% about the traveller's cheque thing - they are a waste of time and an incredible pain to deal with. As a fairly experienced US traveller, when my dumb-ass UK company travel office gave me $1000 in traveller's cheques to use as a deposit on an apartment over here in the US - I wisely cashed them at my local bank in the UK and put all the money into my credit card account!

I don't mess around with Taxis in the US - unless you're in a really dense city (NewYork maybe), you're better off grabbing a rental car with a sat-nav unit at the airport. They are incredibly cheap to rent compared to the UK and for all the whining Americans do about gas prices - they are practically giving the stuff away compared to UK petrol prices!

Since you may well find that it's impossible to cross the street outside your hotel on foot (I'm not kidding!) - a car is very useful (and if you haven't driven on the "wrong" side of the road in a car with the size (and handling) of the QE2 - it's worth doing just to say you did!). Plus, you haven't experienced America unless you've driven here.

If you haven't yet decided where to go yet - consider San Francisco. It's an amazing place - probably the most beautiful city in America with amazing scenery just outside the city on the other side of the Golden Gate bridge for when you get sick of ridiculously steep hills and trolley cars (which are actually quite entertaining!). Highway 1 is the other reason to rent a car by the way...get a convertible...just trust me on this one! We splurged on a hotel right in the center of the city - spent three weeks there and never ran short of things to do (although it wasn't exactly cheap!). On the other hand - avoid Vegas like the plague. It doesn't suit the English mentality at all...it sucked all the life out of me - I found it to be one of the most utterly depressing places on the planet. So lacking in soul or ideas of their own that they've resorted to faking 'real' cities like Paris and Venice and COMPLETELY missing the point in the way they did so. You can see all there is to see in Vegas in a day. The fountains at the Bellagio - the pyramid of Luxor - the StarTrek ride at the Hilton was OK - but I think that's closed now...and you're done! Then you are honor-bound to spend another day at the grand canyon (an amazing thing - but a heck of a pain to get to, expect four to six hours of driving and two hours at the lip of a hole that is so deep that you mind simply cannot wrap itself around the concept of what it's seeing) - but then you're done - you've seen everything you need to see there. The week I was there was horrible...hell on earth...never again! Boston is really quite nice - but it has a very English feel about it - and to be honest - it's hardly worth coming all that way to see it. Los Angeles - well, if you don't mind spending your entire vacation on a freeway creeping along at 20 mph - you'll be OK. Otherwise - don't bother. New York - it's another amazing place - but the stereotype of the people who live there is spot-on...and for me, it's another one like Vegas - you can see everything you need to see in two days - then it's just a big, nasty city and you wind up in 'survival mode', not enjoying yourself at all. SteveBaker (talk) 01:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Re my favorite city: I can see how Los Angeles could be an annoying place to visit, if you don't know the place. Perhaps surprisingly, it's a wonderful place to live. I miss it. --Trovatore (talk) 19:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, Steve, but...I can't drive and I'm going to visit a friend in Michigan. But I'll bear it in mind for future visits in six years or so, when I can afford them again ;-) Vimescarrot (talk) 09:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

When you return home you can rightfully say something that will sound like "I've just come from a chicken". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

you haven't experienced America unless you've driven here. I was once driving along the north edge of LA on a highway with my Dad. I commented to him, "I've never really seen LA, I've only driven along the edge like this." He replied, "To drive a highway in LA is to see the soul of the city--you've done it." (I know I know, it is easy to joke about any big city). Pfly (talk) 05:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Assuming this is a simple holiday... Fill out the I-94W form on the plane, including the smaller tear-off bit. Name, address, passport number, flight number, address in USA - so you'll need all that info and a pen in your carry-on bag. Answer the questions about are you a crook, terrorist, pervert, convicted of "moral turpitude" (whatever that is), drug smuggler, and so on. If you have a shady past, I would go straight to the embassy and get a visa.

On arrival, those security people at the airport really have no sense of humour; so never try strike up a conversation and absolutely never crack a joke with them. I usually smile and say hello, but otherwise volunteer the absolute minimum to get me into the country... Purpose of your trip: "Vacation". How long you staying: "2 weeks". Where are you staying: "A friends house" (point at the address on the I-94W form). Show them your return ticket if asked. Wipe your finger on the fingerprint thingy and a grim smile for the webcam. "Welcome to the USA"... Grab your bag at baggage reclaim, and hope customs don't pull you over. You're in - enjoy your holiday.

The same thing applies when coming home... Don't lose the other half of the I-94W stapled into your passport, don't get chatty or crack jokes. At the x-ray machine, take everything out of your pockets and take off everything that they ask you to take off (shoes, belt, jewellery, jacket, etc.) In my experience, if that metal detector make a beep, they'll get you to stand around in one spot for ages until the checker guy comes over with his half finished donut and coffee. He'll than take a very slow look through your pockets and all your carry-on stuff, leaving you to repack and run the length of the terminal building to be in time for your departure. Oh yes, if you had a rental car, it takes a lot longer than you imagine dropping it off and getting to the terminal; so get to the airport with plenty of spare time. Astronaut (talk) 09:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

totl 6min eclipse

What effect did the 6 min total eclipse have on (a) on the moon and (b) on the earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.53.133.230 (talk) 23:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Nil effect on the moon; for that celestial body it was just another day. As to the earth, it shielded a small portion of the planet from the sun for a very short time, probably diminishing the energy received on that day by a very very very very small percentage. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:33, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Possibly a slightly higher tide than usual. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

And (in other places) a slightly lower low tide. The tides when the sun and moon are close together but not eclipsing are pretty much the same as during an eclipse - it's hardly earth-shattering. Mostly, a total solar eclipse is nothing more than the moon's shadow passing across the earth. It's quite a big shadow...but there are cloud banks that cast bigger shadows.

Are you affected when your shadow lands on something? No? Well, that's how it is with the moon - it isn't affected by what happens to its shadow.

In a total eclipse - when you get several minutes of near total darkness, as the sun emerges from behind the moon - the birds will perform their 'dawn chorus' - so I guess they are microscopically affected. Scientists can do some significant observations during an eclipse - that's how Einsteins theory of special relativity was eventually confirmed.

Aside from the "Wow!" factor - it's not really a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. SteveBaker (talk) 01:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't you mean general relativity? —Tamfang (talk) 07:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

See spring tide for why the tides are most affected during an eclipse. It's very marginal compared to non-eclipse periods, though -- just another spot on the continuum towards neap tide. --Sean 14:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Yep. The eccentricity of the Moon's orbit (a difference of 40000 km from apogee to perigee, some 10% of the average distance) plays a far greater role in the variations of a spring tide than does the Moon's orbital inclination (5.1%, corresponding to about a 1500 km variation). For that matter, even the distance between the Earth and the Sun has a larger tidal impact than does the presence of an eclipse. Note that all of this is considering "spring tide with an eclipse" versus "spring tide without an eclipse". The spring tide phenomenon is very real; the impact of the eclipse is likely immeasurable. Note also that the situation is identical for lunar eclipses. — Lomn 18:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

b) on earth: Amaze quite a few humans. Scare the bits out of quite a few animals for about 6 min, and some ill-informed humans for a lot longer. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 01:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

July 24

Original track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRvcxLyu9G4 What is he audio source on this? Where did it come from? I've heard it alot on YTMND and the first time I heard it was in a Gmod video. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.130.237.183 (talk) 03:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Honest to goodness, the backing track sounds like something the creator of the video put together with a cheap casio keyboard. Its a simple little loop that anyone with about a years worth of piano lessons could piece together. --Jayron32 05:28, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

That must have been one of the "Bottom 10" at the MTV awards. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 05:44, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

These sort of questions come up every so often. One thing I never understand is why there's usually no sign of the person asking the poster for details. Surely the poster (who last signed in 3 days ago) may be more likely to know then random people on the internet? Nil Einne (talk) 16:04, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's people trying to generate more views and a higher PageRank for their YouTube videos. Tempshill (talk) 18:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the bad music must have become part of a meme, and the questioner simply wants to identify its origin. (Out of curiosity, rather than finding it special in itself) - it reminds me a bit of crazy frog, but it isn't that.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Someone commented a week ago on the YouTube page that it's "Chacarron Macarron" by El Chombo. --jh51681 (talk) 00:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Amtrak

Where can I find information as to what % of Amtrak trains outside of the NE corridor run within 1 hour of being on time? Googlemeister (talk) 14:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You might be able to find something useful in connection with http://www.amtrakdelays.com --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 15:26, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec)See Amtrak route performance . It does not give the exact arrival times, but percent of ontime arrival. "Ontime" depends on the length of the route: within 10 minutes for 250 miles, within 30 minutes for 550 miles or over, for instance. The City of New Orleans, for instance, had 85% ontime performance for the last year. Delays were mostly due to interference by other trains. The rules are now that Amtrak pulls onto a siding and waits for a freight train to pass, which the host railroad gives priority to. The second cause is signal and track problems. Edison (talk) 15:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Sault Ste Marie, MI, USA --to-- Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada

I am taking a trip from sault ste marie in michigan state to moncton new brunswick (along the way to nova scotia).

Does anyone know some good things to see along the way? Or even things to see in nova scotia itself?

Thanks! 71.221.42.118 (talk) 16:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Are you familiar with Wikitravel? You can look up cities along your route and see what editors there thought were interesting enough to mention. -- 128.104.112.87 (talk) 16:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Assuming you cross over into Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario first, you can go to the Big Nickel in Sudbury. I assume you will also pass through Ottawa and Montreal along the way, lots to do there. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:38, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the cross over is in sault ste marie. I saw Sudbury in google earth, but had no idea about the giant nickel, thanks! anything else? :)

71.221.42.118 (talk) 19:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Ottawa has a lot of tourist sights, including the Canadian Parliament building, a number of museums, the Governor General's mansion (Rideau Hall), the Rideau Canal, etc. Montreal is another major touristic destination (the Old Port, Olympic Stadium, the Botanical Gardens and Biodome, Ste. Catherine Street...). Between the two, instead of the main highway, if you follow the Quebec side of the Ottawa River, there is a lot to see: the almost abandoned airport at Mirabel, the Château Montebello and the Manoir Papineau, both in Montebello, Quebec, and the nature reserve in Plaisance, Quebec. Continuing eastwards from Montreal, Quebec City is a must see, especially the old walled city and the Citadelle of Quebec. You would then follow the south shore of the St. Lawrence River, which is quite scenic in itself, particularly around Kamouraska, Quebec. Someone else will have to give you highlights once you cross into New Brunswick towards Edmundston, New Brunswick, as I'm not familiar with that part of the route. --Xuxl (talk) 20:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I've driven from Montreal to Nova Scotia, and I have a few things to add. The Chateau Frontenac is one of the most popular sites in Quebec City. A block or two north of it is a little lane full of artists and charicaturists (is that a word?) which is certainly worth a look-see. Just beyond that lane is the grand Notre-Dame de Québec Cathedral. There's also the stunning Montmorency Falls just outside Quebec. Unfortunately, I spent most of New Brunswick sleeping and reading (I wasn't the driver!) so, like Xuxl, I can't tell you much about it. I know Magnetic Hill in Moncton is a tourist draw, although I didn't stop there personally. I also know we stopped at a truck stop just on the New Brunswick side of the Quebec/New Brunswick border with a great, homey little restaurant that you'd probably never think to stop at, but I was still kind of asleep when we got there, so unfortunately I can't be more specific about where it is, or even what company the gas station was. It's a shame, because they had great spaghetti :) Whereabouts in Nova Scotia are you going? I lived there for two years, but only saw a very little bit of it. So let me know where you'll be going, and maybe I can help, maybe I can't. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 21:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I am pretty much going everywhere i can in nova scotia. :)

71.221.42.118 (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Sudbury also has Science North, a science museum (although it is geared towards kids). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Everywhere you can, eh? Well, I lived in the Annapolis Valley, along the Bay of Fundy. It's all very rural and small town-y, so there's not much to do, but plenty to see, because it's a beautiful area. If you get a chance, go see the Bay of Fundy at high tide, and then come back at low tide, without seeing it in between. Even when you know the numbers of how much it changes, actually seeing it is astonishing. Because the Valley is so agriculturally oriented, farmer's markets and U-pick farms are a big deal there and the area is well known for its fruit and other produce. I've also been to Halifax, but didn't spend a lot of time there. I did enjoy wandering around the docks in the harbour and checking out all the ships (the Queen Mary 2 was docked there once when I was there!). They're all about the seafood in Nova Scotia, and this was unfortunate for me because I hate seafood, but if you like it, there's no shortage of places to get every kind of good seafood you can imagine. Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 05:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Fredericton, New Brunswick is a pretty town, worth a stopover. The town has some historic structures, a good live theatre company, some decent restaurants, excellent walking and biking trails, art galleries, and the nearby Kings Landing, which in my opinion may be the best museum village in North America. I've been to Moncton, too, but to me Fredericton was more interesting and attractive. Marco polo (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Earthed Plugs

Why is it that in the UK, plugs have to be three-pin (one for earthing) but in all other countries I have visited (and I have been to a few), they only need two-pin plugs with no earthing? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you're referring to grounding. You might be able to find more information at AC power plugs and sockets. Exploding Boy (talk) 18:54, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The history section in BS 1363 is also somewhat to the point, explaining how the UK arrived at its plug. Such plugs tend to be used in Commonwealth countries, which for historic reasons have adopted UK standards. The article on Appliance classes may also help - class 2 devices, for instance, do not need an earth connection whereas class 1 does. If I was you, though, I'd turn the question around and ask why the 2-pronged countries think they can get away with what looks to the three pronged countries to be a somewhat dodgy & haphazard plug design. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

The trend in the States has been towards three-prong grounded plugs for quite some time. That doesn't mean you don't still see a lot of two-prong plugs, but for the most part they're legacy. --Trovatore (talk) 19:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

.... hmm, actually I was using plug to mean socket here; that was imprecise. You do see a lot of two-prong plugs even in newer items, if they're low-power. But most if not all newer construction has three-hole sockets. There are still a lot of two-hole sockets left over from decades ago, which presumably explains why manufacturers often use two-prong plugs in low-power appliances. --Trovatore (talk) 03:29, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

British 3-prong power plugs have the earth (ground) pin longest so that it engages first as a safety feature where the earth goes to a metal equipment case. The present BS 1363 version has additional safety feature of shutters over the socket holes that have to be opened by inserting the earth prong, which make the socket child-safe. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If you have been to countries using types E or F described in AC power plugs and sockets the fact that they have only two prongs doesn't mean they aren't grounded. They are either grounded through a metal tongue at the side of the plug or a socket for a grounding prong mounted in the outlet. In the US we are supposed to connect the tongue of a 3prong outlet adapter[8] to ground. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

What are the consequences of not doing so? Tempshill (talk) 23:40, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If something comes loose inside the appliance then a live wire could possibly contact the metal case or a screw-head or something - and thereby electrocute the user when he/she touches it...maybe an hour or a day or a month later! In properly designed appliances, all metal parts are earthed so that should a live wire come in contact with some other metal part, there will be a short-circuit to earth - the circuit breaker would trip - and any brief spike of current would be carried away safely. UK plugs also have an integral fuse (aka fuze) on the 'life' side which provides further protection in the event that the circuit breaker or house fuse doesn't trip - or doesn't trip fast enough.

The reason this kind of thing is taken more seriously in the UK than in the USA is because our 240 volt wall socket voltage is CONSIDERABLY more dangerous than 110 volts you get in the USA. Another thing that drives these safety devices into the market quickly in the UK is that we have the "British Standards Institute" (BSI) who have the legal power to require manufacturers to comply with whatever safety rules they come up with. In the USA, it's much more a case of people producing defective products first having to kill someone - then getting sued for it. That's not universally true - but there certainly are some horrifyingly defective-by-design products out there. On the down-side, British power sockets - and the plugs that go into them are GIGANTIC in comparison to the US variety. It gets kinda crazy when you have something small like a cellphone charger - which would comfortably fit into a matchbox - with a mains plug that would need about six matchboxes! What the modern world really needs is a standard for much lower voltage (possibly 9v or 12v DC) wall outlets with tiny plugs and sockets that can be used for small appliances like cellphone chargers in order that every product you buy doesn't have to come with a 'wall wart' and yet another incompatible and poorly labelled power socket. It's interesting to note how an increasing number of small devices can be powered from a USB socket - which is rapidly becoming a kind of de-facto standard for many of those lower power devices. SteveBaker (talk) 00:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the (aka fuze) bit above: Is fuse in the sense of bit of metal that melts when there's too much current ever actually spelled with the z? Anywhere?

My understanding is that a fuze is always a detonator, never a circuit breaker, and that it's distinct from the sort of fuse-with-an-s that's also a detonator, in that the one with the s is just a long cord that you light on fire. A fuze is a more complicated gadget that may have a timer, a proximity sensor, a pressure sensor, or lots of other things.

There has been a considerable back-and-forth on this at the fuse (explosives) page. --04:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Canadian Wisky

I am trying to find out where I can purchase or contact people that sell Wiser's Choice 18 year old whisky.I live in Michigan and would like the closest source.Thank you.

[email removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDVHUNTER (talk • contribs) 18:51, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If you have a local Off license type place that sells whiskeys or even just wines they may be able to order in a bottle for you. A lot of local places will do this sort of thing if they can get it from their supplier's catalogue (given that they'll charge you retail and for such sort of things may be able to get away with ordering just 1 bottle). ny156uk (talk) 20:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Email address removed — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 21:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe Canada has ever owned Wisky. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

OP lives in Michigan. That most probably means the U.S. state of, so he'd have to find a liquor store rather than an off license But things aren't quite so easy, Michigan is an Alcoholic beverage control state. There don't seem to be any completely dry counties anymore, but alcohol sates are restricted in some. The manufacturer has one source [9] listed for Michigan. Good luck. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't say where in Michigan. If you're in the Detroit area, you're not far from Windsor, Ontario. Why not call up an LCBO store in Windsor and see if they can get some in for you, then just go pick it up? --Trovatore (talk) 05:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Before all the restrictions resulting from 9/11, that was reasonable. Now you need a $120 passport just to cross the river.[10] Rmhermen (talk) 05:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Volleyball

Why in volleyball is it illegal to use the open palm to hit?174.3.103.39 (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

What makes you think that is not allowed ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

There are rules against “throwing” or “carrying” the ball, which a ref will generally interpret any kind of upward contact with an open palm as being. But an open palm is used (legally) all the time for forward or downward strikes, such as when serving or spiking. But even in those instances, contact with the ball has to be brief, or the ref will call it as throwing. The official rules of volleyball are available here.

As far as why “throwing” and “carrying” are illegal, you’d have to ask William G. Morgan, but unfortunately he’s been dead for 67 years. But my guess is that those rules were created because carrying the ball would slow the game down and thus make it less exciting, and being able to throw the ball would make it too hard to defend against. Red Act (talk) 22:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

How brief is brief?174.3.103.39 (talk) 22:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

It's really subjective; it's up to the ref to interpret the rule, and refs do vary a bit. Generally, the players just see how strict a ref is, and adapt their game slightly if need be. Red Act (talk) 22:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

P.S. If there’s any question in your mind as to whether contact with the ball during a particular hit was too long, it essentially certainly was too long. A large fraction of hits by beginners involve contact that isn’t brief enough, and would be called a carry or throw if there was a ref around. (The ref uses the same hand signal for a carry and a throw; they're essentially the same fault.) A lot of recreational players get surprised by this, when they enter a tournament for the first time, and the ref starts calling carry faults left and right. Refs are sometimes a little more lenient with carry calls for beginning players, so there doesn’t wind up being a carry fault practically every volley. Red Act (talk) 15:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Is it possible to use the open palm in place of the bump? Kind of like juggling, but of course one hit per player and 3 hits on one side before it has to go to the other. Is it possible to use the open palm for a volley?174.3.103.39 (talk) 22:27, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

An upward, open palm strike from near the ground, e.g. in place of a bump, will essentially always get called as a carry. You might be able to get away with that in back yard play, but generally not at even unrefereed amateur games with casual groups that get together weekly, at least in my experience. Red Act (talk) 22:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

As a point of etiquette, one should chastise an underperforming teammate with the back of one's hand. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Font for CVs

- I think I remember reading of some research that'd been done on the most effective/successful fonts (& possibly text sizes) for curriculum Vitaes (resumes to you Americans), & for business generally. Can anyone remember this better than I can? AllanHainey (talk) 22:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

According to this article, you should choose Times New Roman for your CV for a traditional company and Verdana for a more contemporary firm. This study found that 12pt font on white paper was the best for resumes. Exploding Boy (talk) 23:12, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

It's clear there's a trade off between amount of content, and readbility (no refs) - 12pt Times New Roman is a good standard, as for Verdana - it's HUGE. Looks like a party invitation in 12pt, suggest 11, or maybe that's the point.83.100.250.79 (talk) 23:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

If you don't have a lot of experience with layout Times New Roman is a safe choice, but there are people who actually hate it. (It shouts I don't know what to do with the fonts in my word processing software.} Verdana runs wider, so it's not as easy to use as some other fonts. 12 pt in one font doesn't look the same as 12 pt in another. What your printer makes of your page is also not always WYSIWYG. Don't use more than one or two different fonts and other emphasizing methods. Try a printout and answer these basic questions: Is it easy to read? Is important information easy to find? Does it have the right amount of white space or does it look crowded or too empty? There are many, many studies on typesetting and layout, but in the end they only supply general trends and tendencies. A study result that "most people like vanilla" doesn't mean the vanilla custard pie will beat the strawberry shortcake and vanilla pickle cookies still don't sound like a winner. (I was rather amused that one of the links on typesetting above had most horrible typesetting and could have stood someone adjusting the kerning:-}. On colored paper: any color but white reduces the contrast between type and paper. Also be aware that effects of colors can have a strong cultural component. Remember that both yum and yuck make your CV stand out, but only one will make them want more. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 00:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Tricks and trendy ideas for CV's come and go on a cycle rate of about a year - most advice you get will be out of date because it's not 'trendy' anymore. Personally, in my line of business (computer games), content is king. The majority of CV's these days come in eMail or via the web - and our HR department immediately does a cut & past into a piece of software that handles and tracks them - which removes all of your fancy fonts, nice layouts and sexxy paper colors and dumps everything out in the same font with a dumbed-down layout that lets the software analyse and present the information in a way that allows us to compare them easily and on equal terms.

If you can get advice from a recruitment specialist - you'll stand a better chance of getting things right. When I was job hunting a couple of years ago, I bought a couple of books on the subject...the first one seemed pretty reasonable - the second one said that things change fast and to ignore advice more than a couple of years old (which meant I'd completely wasted my time reading the first book!)...it said in no uncertain terms to keep my CV down under 2 pages. I fought hard to keep to that limit - send a copy to a recuiter who immediately came back to me and said that at my age and level of seniority, a 2 page resume would speak of a wasted career and skinny amounts of experience and that I should consider perhaps a 5 page resume! So I did what they said - and it worked. But I'm sure the rules have changed again by now! FWIW, I put my resume onto my web site in .DOC, plain-old text, .HTML, .PDF and RTF, and in my written/emailed version started out by saying that you could get this document in machine readable form at <http://www.my website address.com> SteveBaker (talk) 01:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I have an aesthetic interest in type, but these particular questions involve (as much type always has) a couple of practical issues:

1. Many résumés and CV's are now pre-screened by scanning software and so the ads specify a very limited number of types (e.g. Arial or Times Roman) and point size(s) that can be easily read by the aesthetically-unappreciative software.
2. Verdana does not have a high reputation among typographic designers. It's a downsized version of Arial, which was itself designed to be equally readable on a computer screen and on the printed page (WYSIWYG). Arial is successful in this aim, but it's not a particularly distinguished typeface. If you have a choice of sans-serif types, one of the classic fonts like Gill Sans or Futura, or a newer font in their tradition (not Arial, Verdana, Helvetica or Univers), is more likely to make an impressive printed document.
3. Similarly, while there is much to commend Times Roman, its popularity has made it seem over-familiar and trite to many eyes. You might want to look (if fonts aren't already specified in the job posting) at several of the classic seriffed fonts like Garamond, Granjon, Bodoni or Caslon, and see if their aesthetics match what you want to convey without seeming over-precious. —— Shakescene (talk) 10:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I've always had difficulty with anything other than times new roman or arial for CV's - anything else seems to suggest potential shallowness (eg why are you spending time choosing a fancy font?), obviously for the creative arts the situation may be different. I'd like to see a typesetter, or font designers CV too...83.100.250.79 (talk) 11:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Interesting take. The flip side of that argument is, why have a couple of dozen (or more) fonts available if somehow you're supposed to restrict yourself to only 2 of them. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Could be bloat, a lot of them are god awful, others may be suited to other tasks...83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Hitler's Subtitler gets a cheap font CD shows you what not to do, (couldn't resist).83.100.250.79 (talk) 11:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you're a little mixed up on Verdana. It's not related to Arial. It's meant to be a screen font, and not a very nice one, either, but it's related to other font families. (Arial itself is a debased Helvetica, but that's another story). Neither are liked by designers. --18:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You can add Calibri to future CVs given that's the new default in Microsoft Applications going forward apparently. ny156uk (talk) 17:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and it's rather ghastly for printed documents. Bleh. Looks nice on screen, horrible on page. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In picking fonts for this kind of thing, you want something simple, tasteful, and shows you put a tiny bit of thought into it but not too much. I think mine is currently in Caslon. Classier than Times New Roman but not ostentatious. Garamond, sure, though it's a little delicate and small. Plain-old Helvetica never really goes out of style, a much preferable alternative to Arial or Verdana, if you want to look modern (always make clever use of its bold). I agree Gill Sans and Futura will do a pinch, though if it were me, I'd go with the Helvetica. Anyway -- try a few out. See what says "you" best. There's no one right way to do it (but plenty of wrong ways). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, Garamond in normal weights on an ink-jet or laser printer can sometimes look a little thin and spiky (although it worked very well in older presses on thicker paper for New Left Review). However, I've had success designing a menu for a moderately-lit bar by using American Garamond Bold on an ink-jet printer and regular paper. (Boldfacing a normal Garamond weight could also work, though not quite so well.) But fit the type to the purpose, rather than the other way around. —— Shakescene (talk) 22:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, scratch all that. Comic Sans is the way you distinguish yourself from the competition! ;-) --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In the same way that a fool's cap would distinguish you at the interview. One of The Wall Street Journal's most-popular front-page light features recently was about a world-wide campaign to eradicate Comic Sans. Algerian would also stand out. —— Shakescene (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Zapf Dingbats would certainly be sending some sort of message. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 02:53, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the suggestions. Think I'll steer clear of Zapf Dingbats.

I've downloaded a few of the suggestions - I like Caslon only at 12 points the w's are really odd looking. The Caslon Pro version is better but too faint. Bodoni & Granjon look too similar & a bit angular/boxy/flat over the whole page so I'm not too sure on them. May end up going with Helvetica or Garamond though. AllanHainey (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

No one has mentioned Sabon or Minion, which are graceful and understated. One might also consider Baskerville. —Tamfang (talk) 07:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Volleyball Ball

Why would kicking the volleyball possibly damage it? What are the materials and how is it made?174.3.103.39 (talk) 23:02, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Who says it would damage it? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

My gym teacher.174.3.103.39 (talk) 01:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This is probably not the true reason. Your gym teacher likes gym class to be sane, calm, and under control, and having volleyballs careen off the ceiling, hitting one of your classmates in the head, does not fit this description. Saying that it damages the ball may be plausible but it's really just a quick, simple excuse to get you to cease and desist. At least it's better than 'because I said so'. Vranak (talk) 23:23, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Most people can kick a lot harder than they can throw but most also can't control the direction very well. Your gym teacher won't tell you to "not kick the ball so that it'll bounce all over the place and injure fellow students." He'll rather threaten you with looking like a dork for ruining the ball and having to pay for a replacement. Smart teacher. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. If he told you not to kick the ball cuz you;d probably misaim it and injure someone doing so, you'd be more likely to say to yourself "but I know what I am doing, and I can kick more accurately, so I can ignore his warnings". If he tells you you'll damage the ball, then since that would be out of any control you have, you can't really argue that YOU'RE kicking wouldn't damage the ball, since ANYONES would. Its good psychology. To be fair, you aren't using a game-ready volleyball in gym class. You're using some 10 year old ball that's been used thousands of times by thousands of kids before you. But even if he is "pulling a fast one" with his reasoning, his intentions are sound. You shouldn't kick the ball for the exact reason that 71.236 mentions; kicking a ball in an enclosed room with irregular surfaces is likely to end badly for you and others. --Jayron32 04:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I’ll compare a volleyball to an association football (also known as a “soccer” ball in the U.S.). Both consist of a leather exterior surrounding a polyurethane or rubber lining, and the two are roughly the same size (69cm diameter for the football vs. 66cm for the volleyball). However, a football weighs about 60% more than a volleyball (430g vs. 270g). So a football is thicker, and presumably can withstand the hard impact of a kick better than volleyball can.

Kicking the ball is currently legal in volleyball (it didn’t used to be, years ago), although kicking the ball is normally only done in rare, desperate situations, because you can’t control the ball very well that way. However, in those rare occasions when a ball is kicked in volleyball, it’s generally just a gentle tap to get it up to where your teammate can get it, and isn’t kicking it as hard as you can, like you might do with a football. If your gym teacher won’t let you tap the ball with your foot as a last-ditch alternative in a volleyball game, then either he’s unfamiliar with the current rules (which wouldn’t surprise me), or he’s being unfairly over-protective of the ball. Red Act (talk) 09:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

It's always illuminating to find out that a teacher is lying to you. It sets a good example for one's own future behavior. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 09:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Lying suggests a wilful intention to mislead. The teacher may simply be misinformed, and be in need of some tuition him/herself. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:56, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Or the teacher may be correct and the "random thoughts of random strangers on the internet" may be in error. Rmhermen (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Seriously. The teacher is NOT concerned about knocking a ball used in Phys Ed class out of alignment. These balls are used for years and beat to shit. --Jayron32 13:11, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

See also Lie-to-children. Sometimes there are VERY educationally sound reasons to present a situation to children which is known to be false or inaccurate because the false information is likely to act as a means to introduce more accurate information later. For example, Newtonian physics is not true, but it sometimes is helpful to teach it because the average 6th grader isn't going to "get" quantum mechanics right away, unless they have the less accurate material in their mind first to branch off of. This is not wrong or bad in any way, but sound educational theory. --Jayron32 13:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Newtonian physics is largely true for ordinary observations - it's good enough for teaching young'uns. Just like first-graders don't need to study Shakespeare as their first English literature - Dr. Seuss is good enough for their level of comprehension. Lying to kids teaches them, eventually, that lying is OK. That's called "situation ethics". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to study shakespeare, unless you want to study how he writes, and other sociological matter in the subjects.174.3.103.39 (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The best way to study Shakespeare is to see his plays, and even better to help put one on. Then you can see what the issues and problems are, and know what the contextual explanations are all about. Reading Shakespeare's plays before seeing (or producing) them is deadly dull and nearly pointless. Like a secretive screenplay writer or producer in Hollywood, Shakespeare didn't particularly want his stuff to be printed at large and given away free to the competition. He wrote to be heard, not (except in his poems) to be read. —— Shakescene (talk) 21:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating how a question about possible damage to a volleyball can morph into a discussion on the best way to study Shakespeare. This is what makes WP so eternally fascinating. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

July 25

Animated movie

There was an animated movie a number of years ago, I never saw it but wanted to it was set in the future in space, all I remember is the trailer, and a guy sitting in the cargo hold of a spaceship looking out at supernovas. any idea, I know this is vague but any help would be appreciated. The animation was more Disney/Pixar than Animae, or more western than eastern, if that helps. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.58.82 (talk) 09:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Try the Entertainment Ref Desk... Rkr1991 (talk) 11:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

see Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Entertainment#Animated movie

moved there for a more likely response83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Pre computer presentations

Before computer projectors and powerpoint presentations were common, presentations were often carried out with photographic slides (I think) - about 20years ago I remember these. Typically they would have a blue background, with type and diagrams.

Does anyone know how they were made, was there a name for them, or the process that produced them?83.100.250.79 (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

See Overhead projector and transparency. Also Slide projector. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

No not that, I meant how the slide were made..83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

See also film recorder. My dad serviced these for like 20 years, so I am a bit familiar with them. --Jayron32 13:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure - the film recorder would make the transparency then - but how did they make the digital image back then - I'm not even sure that it was digital (probably was but don't know) What software/hardware did they use for the digital image?

I have heard real golden oldies refer to things called "viewgraphs" which sound a lot like Powerpoint slides. As for creating them, they didn't use computers for the most part, they make up the page normally (drafting the graphs carefully, using cut-out text), and then take a photograph of it, or something along those lines. Here's a nice little guide to making them from the good old days, that explains some of the different ways to do it. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that's too old - the 'viewgraphs' appear to be a form of transparency for an overhead projector, I'm sure the things I'm thinking of were made as 35mm slides, and used a standard projector eg Carousel slide projector. One thing I remember about them was that they were always blue, but I don;t know if this was a design choice, or part of the process that made them.83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:51, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they shrunk viewgraphs onto 35mm slides - I haven't got a clue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.100.250.79 (talk) 14:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Used lots of presentation methods through the years. Photo projection was by a simple slide projector, and colour negative film. Views, portraits, graphs, anything that could be photographed. Then came cassette projectors with up to 80 slides and a cable remote. The other major method in College was the Overhead Projector (called a viewgraph in the US I think.) This was a light box with a prism on an arm. So a transparency could be laid flat on the OHP screen and it would be projected onto a vertical screen. These transparencies could either be hand drawn, produced by photography or by photocopier. Then computers grew up and along came Powerpoint. One thing the OHP allowed, however, was that one could draw or write on the transparency in real time. No tutor/classroom was without one!86.200.128.250 (talk) 16:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)DT

There's a missing link - the images were via slides not transparencies (not that that matters), but the slides were accurately type set - white text on a blue background - ie using a proper font, not handwriting - does anyone know how these were made (20 years ago)83.100.250.79 (talk) 16:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Harvard Graphics, for example, was computer-based - but you would use it to print to transparencies which would then be projected onto a screen using an overhead projector. You could technically do the same thing with Power Point, except that with high-quality computer projectors available now, there's no need to take that extra step - you can project directly from the PC. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That sounds more likely - I remember that they were generally used in presentations by visitors from big companies eg Imperial Chemical Industries - I imagine it was expensive at the time.83.100.250.79 (talk) 17:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Honestly I wish people would read the question - I said they had a blue background with type, and I said they used photographic slides - does this match an overhead slide in any way? I don't really want to read a lot of brown noise in the answer.83.100.250.79 (talk) 17:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think you'll find that if you harsh on people who give you some information but it's not exactly what you want, you'll end up getting no information in the future. We're telling you what we know, not knowing if you want us ONLY to answer if we know about the SPECIFICS of your description. We're trying to be helpful. Please be a little more gracious, or go somewhere else for your question-answering. Everyone here is a volunteer and could easily be spending their time better elsewhere. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry you took it so personally - but I'm not asking for peoples recollections of stuff that I clearly haven't asked for. I'm just asking people to read the fucking question.

Apparently he thinks he's paying us for this service. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:28, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Fuck you too.83.100.250.79 (talk)

No, thanks - I gave at the office. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 03:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not a service for you to show off your knowledge either. So I don't need to know that I can connect a powerpoint presentation to a fucking electronic projector do I? Thanks for that amazing piece of insight.83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Dude stop acting like a dick - we're all volunteers on the refdesk - insulting people who are just trying to help is a lousy way to behave. Exxolon (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth 83.100.250.79, I sympathize with you. It's common practice here on the Ref Desk for some of the "volunteers" to give the stock answer "it's a free service so you've no right to complain" to defend sub-standard quality. It's a shame as the Ref Desk is an absolutely great resource, when it works. Also, just an FYI, you've being discussed on the Ref Desk talk page here -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.91.128 (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, not only is this a free service entirely run by volunteers, most of whom do try to answer the questions posted here thoroughly, but but there's also no call for being ungracious if you don't get the information you want. Furthermore, our civility policy applies project-wide. I suggest User:83.100.250.79 tone it down. Exploding Boy (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree 83.100.250.79 over reacted. And perhaps I did too a little bit; it was just Baseball Bugss sarcastic comment that frustrated me, and obviously it angered 83.100.250.79 too based on his reply to it. Pointing out that Wikipedia is a free service should not be a valid defense when there is something wrong. In that case, why bother at all? Why bother to have correct info in articles, why bother to enforce policy and block vandals? After all, the end user isn't paying for the service, so they've no right to complain. I think what I'm trying to say is, that sort of attitude isn't helpful. Thankfully most people on the Ref Desks are extremely helpful and kind, and try their very best to provide a brilliant service free of charge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.91.128 (talk) 22:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I did make photographic slides using Powerpoint around 10-11 years ago, before my department had a digital projector. We used what I suspect is a film recorder to do so -- essentially you printed the presentation in slide format to the film recorder and it exposed a single slide at a time, (digital) line by line, then you'd take the exposed film to the photo supply store/processor for developing and get it back the next day. It was a colossal pain. And I did (as did most people) use a blue background with white or yellow text. However, I'm not sure whether other technology was used earlier than that (but see Presentation program). And previous to that I made my slides by photographing typical printer output of black writing on white paper with black and white negative film and self-processing, giving a presentation of white lettering on black background.-- Flyguy649 ^talk 22:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Many semi-professional presentations were created using Genigraphics. -- Atlant (talk) 01:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"Viewgraph" as a term undoubtedly comes from the Vu-Graph overhead projectors manufactured by the Charles Beseler Company, which entered the audio-visual market "in the late 1940s, serving primarily military and educational concerns." The City of Detroit's Department of Civil Defense purchased a "Vu Graph" and stand from Beseler in 1953.

Possibly related to the original question is an abstract of a 1978 report from the Lawrence Livermore Lab in California. "The VuGRAPH code offers possibly the fastest method of generating professional-quality viewgraph transparencies. The viewgraphs are constructed on a four-color plotter controlled by a HP-9825A desk-top minicomputer." --- OtherDave (talk) 03:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

3M produced a 'Color Highlight Write-on Film -- Type 212' for use on overhead projectors. This is a transparent blue film that turns yellow when written on by a special pen. It works well for hand writing or sketching during a presentation, or it can be laid over a your prepared film printed with text or diagram(s) and you use the pen to highlight items during the presentation. Thus a Highlight film gets consumed at every presentation, but the effect of blue turning to yellow makes a memorable impression. My kit of 100 sheets and 3 yellow pens is labelled "Reorder No. 78-6969-4279-2". Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I remember having made such slides, some 25 years ago. We typed or drew the original in black and white. The photography service at the hospital where I worked, photographed the original using a special type of 35mm film, which produced blue and white slides. One type of film that does this is mentioned here, but as far as I can recall, a Kodak film of some sort was used. I also remember that I took a note of the name of the film type, bought a couple of rolls in a photography shop, and did some experimenting with colour originals. The colours were inverted, not exactly to complementary colours, but the effect was interesting, and usable for graphs. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit: I think the film type that we used was the one that is mentioned here - Kodak Vericolor (The page is large, search for "Reverse Text Slides on Vericolor Slide Film" to locate the item I'm referring to). --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Here are the details. It appears that coloured filters are used to produce the blue background colour. I cannot remember doing so when I did my experiments, but it's a long time ago. It is quite possible that I used a yellow or orange filter. I did a lot of photography at the time, and had the filters. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 23:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Volleyball Serves

Is it legal to kick the volleyball on a serve?174.3.103.39 (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

No. Paragraph 12.4.1, which is in the “Service” section of the rules, says “The ball shall be hit with one hand or any part of the arm after being tossed or released from the hand(s).” Red Act (talk) 14:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, what is the reason?174.3.103.39 (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There really isn’t a way to answer what the reason is. The FIVB doesn’t generally explain the decision processes that went into deciding the various rules. I presume kicking the ball during a serve has been discussed, but I highly doubt that that discussion was recorded or made public. You’d have to have a friend on the FIVB rule board who was present during that discussion to have any hope of finding out why kicking isn’t allowed during a serve. Red Act (talk) 15:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Seems kind of arbitrary, don't you think?174.3.103.39 (talk) 15:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There’s no way to objectively judge how arbitrary that decision was. Maybe when they changed the rule to allow kicking, one guy said “so, should we extend this to serves?” and everybody just shook their head. Or maybe they had a half-hour conversation carefully considering how allowing kicking during the serve would affect the game. There’s really no way of knowing. Red Act (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

EC, but answer unchanged: You see, I'm thinking of the disadvatages of introducting kicking on serves. Which I find none: if you use too much power on the kick for the serve, it goes out. I don't see any disadvantage of kicking a volleyball, unless it (somehow) damages the ball (read my previous discussion).174.3.103.39 (talk) 15:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

All rules are arbitrary. Why is it that in soccer you can only handle the ball on a throw-in or when you're the goalie? Because that's how they wanted it. As a practical matter, kicking from a volleyball serve is probably a dumb strategy anyway. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

All rules are not arbitrary. If they let a kick in, the ball would fly across the field, which is not the intension of trying to keep the ball where it exited out of the field. Although I have no citation for this, I think this is more logical then madeup.174.3.103.39 (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You're making the same argument I did, that it's a dumb strategy, because it's so much harder to control. But that's not a reasonable reason for making it against the rules. The drop kick in football is a fairly dumb strategy also, but it's still allowed. The purpose of the rules is to keep the game fair and balanced, not to pre-empt dumb strategies. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The drop kick made a nice retirement present for Doug Flutie. It's probably a good play about each time the last person who made one is dead. PhGustaf (talk) 03:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Each time the last person who made one is dead? Huh?174.3.103.39 (talk) 05:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Floutie did it in 2006. The last guy to drop kick the ball died in 1964. Therefore, by PhGustaf's prediction, the next time someone drop kick's a football of the American variety, Floutie will be dead. Dismas|^(talk) 05:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't exactly complain if someone did it after the next time the Cubs won the World Series and Steve Goodman came back to sing about it[11], though. PhGustaf (talk) 07:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

What argument have I made that is the same as yours? I have never/not yet declared any strategy dumb. Nor have I yet declared anything harder to control. I'm saying that volleyball makes kicking the ball on service "against the rules".174.3.103.39 (talk) 21:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I can’t know for sure, but I think I have a pretty reasonable guess as to why kicking the ball is allowed on a hit, but not on a serve. Originally, all ball contact below the waist was disallowed. In general, longer volleys are more exciting to the players, because there’s more of a sense of accomplishment when you finally get a point after a long, hard-fought volley. Making the change to allowing a ball to be kicked on a hit adds an extra defensive option (and would be a useless offensive strategy, because the angle would be very poor to use on offense), which helps prolong the average volley a little. But allowing a kick on a serve would do nothing to prolong the average volley, and people don’t like it when you change rules too much, so there was no incentive to change to allow kicks on the serve. But that’s just an educated guess. Red Act (talk) 22:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea, but disagree with it.174.3.103.39 (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Soccer Rules

It is illegal to run outside of the field (during a game, excluding breaks, half-times, substitution, etc.), right?174.3.103.39 (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean by "outside of the field"? Unlike games like basketball and American football, the boundary lines in soccer are in play, and the ball can be played from "out of bounds" as long as the ball stays on or inside the boundary lines. Or at least that's the way I recall it from P.E. class some years ago. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

What I mean by outside of the field, is say, we have 11 players on each side. 1 player on side A runs out of the field. Player 2 passes to Player 3. Then Player 1 runs back into the field; Player 3 then passes to Player 1. For instance, is this allowed?174.3.103.39 (talk) 21:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The rules for the Football Association can be found here. what's with all the sports questions all of a sudden? Dismas|^(talk) 17:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You can leave the field of play during the game, but the ball cannot. If the ball fully crosses over the line then it becomes a goal-kick/throw-in (or goal!). If a player is removed from the field due to injury they will (normally) be required that the ref signals them back onto the pitch, but if in the course of a passage of play a player runs off the pitch (but the ball does not) that's fine. Dion Dublin, for instance, rather famously stood behind the goal-line waiting for Shay Given to score a very unusual goal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y0kpT_DD6I). ny156uk (talk)

Isn't there some rule (link seems not to work for me)about no player leaving the field of play without the referee's permission. Whether that covers brief tactical excursions might need clarification if someone has access to the rules. Richard Avery (talk) 22:52, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The English pages are too fragmented to find anything in a hurry, but the German page de:Fußballregeln says: No player may enter or leave the field during play without the referee's permission. Violators are to be penalized. Exceptions are Throw-in and Offside (association football). Hope this helps. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Concur, Law 12 - Misconduct (association football)#Cautionable offences (Yellow Card). Nanonic (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

In practice players come and go off the edges of the pitch all the time. Very often at corners attacking or defending players will end up 'off' the pitch and not request referee's agreement to come back on. Strikers stand around the keeper, defenders stand behind the goal-line (ignoring the person taking the corner as they have to leave the pitch to take it). From my experience this law must be very rarely enforced - in my 20 years as a football-fanatic i've never seen a player stopped let alone booked for leaving the field of play during ongoing play. The only exception is injured players who leave for treatment must get permission (they seem to be keen to enforce that rule). ny156uk (talk) 08:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but what about passing? Is it possible to pass to one player, then exit the field just to enter the field again to be passed back the ball?174.3.103.39 (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The same applies. In ongoing play, no player is ever penalized for stepping off the pitch briefly and then stepping back on it again. It's just not an issue. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 22:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Austria and the German language

Having visited Austria for the World Bodypainting Festival four times now, I have begun to wonder. The official language of Austria is German, the exact same language they speak in Germany, save for local dialects and accents that don't affect the actual correct language. How do Austrians feel about having their official language belonging to another country? From what I've understood, for the past two hundred years or so, Germany and Austria have been very distinct from each other, and Germans and Austrians have been very clear about their countries' borders - save possibly for the brief Anschluss period during World War II, but after that, Germany and Austria have again been very distinct. JIP | Talk 19:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Austrians feel that their language "belongs to" Germany. From an Austrian point of view, both Austria and Germany are German-speaking countries. (This is similar to the perspective of people from the United States, who generally do not feel that their English language "belongs to" England, notwithstanding the narrow-minded belief by some Englishmen that it does.) Historically, the term "Germany" included Austria before the dissolution of the German Confederation in 1866. Before 1866, a person could have said that he was travelling to Vienna, Germany, for example. Austrians could have claimed to be part of Germany right up until the creation of the German Empire (Deutsches Reich) in 1871. After 1871, the term "Germany" was generally redefined to coincide with the German Empire, which excluded Austria, though there was still a concept of a Großdeutschland that included Austria, a concept that Hitler invoked to justify the Anschluss of 1938. The Nazis so sullied Großdeutschland that few Austrians (except for a fringe of neo-Nazis) desire such a union today. That does not diminish their German cultural heritage, including their language. Marco polo (talk) 19:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought that answer was very good, apart from the inclusion of the rather rude "notwithstanding the narrow-minded belief by some Englishmen that it does" bit, though I have to agree that I might have inadvertently been identified as onesuch when I was last in Las Vegas. We had been travelling around from hotel to hotel by taxi for nearly 2 weeks, and most of them were driven by non English speaking drivers, mainly Polish or Lithuanian, even several Russians. And one day, the driver was clearly a local, and I happened to mention that he was the first driver we had had who spoke English, whereupon he told me rather brusquely that "he didn't speak English either - he spoke American". I thought it best not to ask whether that would be Canadian or Spanish (Mexican variety of course). 92.22.84.14 (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The cab-driver wasn't in the worst of company: both the fervently-nationalistic Noah Webster and the famously-cynical H. L. Mencken wrote books about what they called the "American Language". [Consulting my own wiki-link, I see now that Webster published an "American Dictionary of the English Language", so he was a little less extreme.] And having kept most of my British accent after half a century living in the States, you must remember that Americans have no way of telling what attitude you might be holding behind that accent: some are impressed, but others fear that you're trying to assert some kind of cultural superiority and naturally resent it. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Before 1800, there were dozens of sovereign and semi-sovereign states, of which Austria was the largest, that could equally claim German as their official and mother tongue. And nearly a dozen states and city-states that could do the same for Italian.

Spanish is the official language (sometimes together with an Amerindian language such as Quechua) of twenty Latin American nations, none of which has been under Spanish sovereignty in 110 years, and while Spanish institutions such as the Royal Spanish Academy still enjoy some of their respect, I don't think Latin Americans feel that Spain "owns" their language. (Each nation has her own language-dictating academy.) There is certainly friction (e.g. in Bolivia, Guatemala or the Mexican state of Chiapas) between those outside the big cities who grow up speaking Amerindian languages, and more-literate urban classes who speak only Spanish. but after the breakup of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1918, there are relatively-few such non-German-speakers (e.g. Serbs or Czechs) left within the borders of Austria. Although many have tried to establish the English-language equivalent of the Académie Française or the Real Academia Española, none has succeeded, but I don't know if such an linguistic authority exists for the German language, and if one should exist, how it's regarded by Austrians. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

German orthography reform of 1996 might illustrate things a bit. Germany has several government bodies dealing with language. The Duden has a de facto monopoly on German spelling in Germany. I assume you have read Austrian German. Assuming you speak English: how do you feel about your language being "owned" by Germans living at the Baltic coast whom it was named after? "Official languages" aren't usually spoken equally well by the entire population they are supposed to cover and local varieties always exist. Germans from Northern and Southern Germany can communicate when they modify their language to be closer to the official version, but they have to work at that. Governments can try to control what's taught at schools and what people are supposed to do, but they don't always succeed. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that when I took a taxi from the railway station to my accommodation place (a sort of "Bed&Breakfast", I can't afford hotels for such a long time, when the trip alone costs over 500 €), that the driver spoke standard, textbook "German" German to me, but a heavily dialectal Austrian German to the locals. I could understand what they said, but sometimes only barely. The most prominent dialectal feature was replacing "a"'s with "o"'s, for example "ocht" instead of "acht". Is this normal for Austrian German? Is it specific to Carinthia or common to the whole country of Austria? JIP | Talk 19:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Replacing "a" with "å"/"o" is fairly typical for the entire Austro-Bavarian dialectal region. There are some specific features of the Carinthian dialect which you may have noticed. Very noticeable is the "Kärtner Dehnung" (Carintian elongation ?) of the vowel "a", probably an effect of the influence of the Slovenian language. --62.47.152.122 (talk) 22:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

How to Americans feel about having to speak the English language? How do Mexicans feel about having to speak Spanish? It's a really common thing for the people of one country to speak a language that originated someplace else. SteveBaker (talk) 23:29, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, well, it used to be the English language. We Yanks now have an absolute majority of the language's native speakers; I think that means the center of control has shifted. In a spirit of tolerance we still allow it to be called English. 1/2 :-). --Trovatore (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, I sometimes buy French translations of originally English-language books (generally SF novels), and have noticed that those written by British authors generally carry the description "Traduit par l'Anglais", while those by US authors often say "Traduit par l'Americain." I think most people in the UK would be quite happy for the majority language of the USA to be called "American" - if nothing else it might discourage those of a more parochial attitude from complaining about "incorrect" spelling when they encounter prose from the opposite camp. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 03:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Could be. Just in case my "absolute majority" remark was misinterpreted (not sure; the reemergence of the word majority in your comment made me wonder), what I was saying was that an absolute majority of native English speakers in the whole world live in the United States. --Trovatore (talk) 04:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Depends on your definition of "native English speakers". I was born in England, live in the U.S. and know of no Asian ancestors, so I have no personal cause to push, but there might well be an equal or greater number of English speakers in India. In not too many decades, there certainly will be. On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of those English-speakers in India spoke another language to their families when emerging from infancy. English is one of India's official languages, together with Hindi and over a dozen regional tongues. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Note that I specified native speakers -- that is, English as a first language. Huge numbers of Indians learn English in school, but very few grow up speaking it at home. This is not my opinion -- you can look it up. I think it's actually a strong supermajority, on the order of 2/3, of native English speakers are in the US, or it might be the US plus Canada; not sure on the latter point. --Trovatore (talk) 06:10, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

According to List of countries by English-speaking population the US has 215 million native English speakers and 260 million total English speakers. In the entire world, there are 1180 million English speakers and 331 million native English speakers. So - there are around twice as many native English speakers in the USA than in the whole of the rest of the world combined - but Americans represent only about a quarter of the total number of English speakers world-wide. SteveBaker (talk) 19:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

A further, off-topic question. Is it common for native German speakers to switch to English when talking to non-native speakers? I don't like it when they do that. I want to be the one to decide whether I'm trusting my German skills or falling back on English. A strange example of this happened on the last day of the festival, when I was having a beer at Moserhof, in the middle of Seeboden. When there were still other customers present (all native German speakers), the waiter only ever spoke English to me. Immediately after they had left, and I was the last customer present, the waiter switched to German, and asked me, in full standard textbook German, if I had taken lots of photographs in the festival. I replied, also in standard textbook German, that I had. If he knew I understood German, why couldn't he have spoken it to me all along? Because of the way I feel about being talked to, I also make it a point, that whenever a foreign non-native Finnish speaker approaches me in whatever version of Finnish they can manage, I always reply in standard, textbook Finnish. Only if it's clear they don't understand what I'm saying do I switch to English. JIP | Talk 20:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that bugs me too. But also you have to remember that, just as you'd like a chance to practice your German, sometimes the other person wants a chance to practice his English. That may be the motivation, rather than an implication that your German isn't good enough. --Trovatore (talk) 01:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

One thing to remember is that there are bound to be a number of people who for reasons of pride, embrassment or whatever are the opposite and won't tell or try to turn the conversation to the language they prefer. You may say, tough on these people but on the other hand, there's no reason why you can't be the one who tells the person that you'd prefer to speak in German to practice (or whatever). In this particularly case, there are a lot of possibilities beyond them simply feeling you may prefer English. As Trovatore has suggested, it's possible the person wanted to practice their English although that doesn't really explain why they would switch unless they decided they'd had enough or perhaps with more to talk about (since you were the only one left) felt it may be better to choose German if they were more comfortable with that. Perhaps the waiter wanted to show off or preferred to keep his conversations more private. Also it's not clear to me if this person was a native speaker of German or not. If not, perhaps they were the ones embrassed by their German and so chose to speak English when there were people who they felt may look down on them. Even if not embarassed, if they had an accent or whatever and they felt others may look down on them, perhaps they wanted to say to those people 'at least I know English, do you?' Perhaps even, the waiter didn't realise you spoke German, it's possible he saw you speaking to a patron leaving in German and only then realised. Or perhaps one of the patrons was someone the waiter was trying to impress. Or perhaps one of the other staff. Nil Einne (talk) 00:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the waiter was a native German speaker, and spoke German to the locals, but English to me. I spoke English back to him and did not speak to the locals. Only when the locals had left and I was the only customer present did he switch to German. I think he knew I understood German because I had tried to order beer in German before. JIP | Talk 02:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

July 26

timing belt replacement

I have a 1998 Honda Civic 5 speed with 40k miles (I don't drive it very much). I took it into the dealership for an oil change and the guy advised replacing the timing belt and water pump, a rather expensive procedure, despite the low miles, because of the car's age. I see at [12] there is a recommendation of changing the timing belt after 105k miles or 84 months, and I guess the car is somewhat older than that now. Still, it's been in mild weather the whole time, no freezing temperatures or anything like that. How seriously should I take the recommendation? All in all the guy wants to do about $800 of maintenance ("intermediate" service interval $300 involving valve adjustment and stuff like that; wheel alignment $150 or so, and this timing belt / water pump deal). I think I had a "major" ($400) service when the car was about 5 years old and it did seem to run better after that. Plus I guess I've had 10 normal oil changes (3750 mile interval) at around $50 per. The car has been pretty much problem free, I can spend the $800 without financial hardship if it's a sensible expenditure, and $2k on maintenance in 10 years isn't so bad, but it came as a surprise that I was advised to plop so much cash down unexpectedly. Any thoughts? Thanks. 97.157.187.238 (talk) 04:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't judge what the probability of belt failure is, but I can tell you that, if it happens, the consequences will be severe. When the cylinder valves open they project into space that, at other times in the cycle, is occupied by the piston. The timing belt ensures that they only open when the piston is not there. If the belt goes the valves and piston may try to occupy the same space at the same time. For a ten year old car, this is likely to put it beyond economical repair.

Also, I don't know if your mechanic even offered the option, but it is possible to change the belt without changing the pump, which will be cheaper. This removes the possibility of catastrophic engine damage, but you're then taking a risk on the water pump. The pump is powered by the timing belt; for the last ten years it has been happily running and bedding in with the current belt, but the new one will impose slightly different forces on it, which the old seals may not accommodate. The pump might leak. This isn't catastrophic in itself, but the necessary repair will cost about as much as changing the belt because the same things have to be dismantled. This is why the water pump is usually changed at the same time as the belt - you only want to pay the guy once to take those things apart. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I've seen the aftermath of a timing belt failure - essentially the engine tears itself to pieces in a spectacular fashion. I'd get the procedure done if you want to keep running the car. Exxolon (talk) 12:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

You don't have to get the work done at the dealership. Many competant mechanics should be able to obtain the parts and do it for you. I don't know how it is in the US, but here in the UK the dealerships often charge a fixed £100+ per hour for the labour plus the price of the parts, while an independent mechanic will charge £30 per hour for labour plus the same price parts. Replacing the timing belt is generally a lot of labour (3 hours at least) and a few low/medium cost parts (£35 for the belt comes to mind). The other thing to not is that dealerships work on a fixed set of work - if the standard job is to replace both timing belt and water pump, then they will only do both parts even though it is just the belt which actually needs replacement; an independent generally only does the work you ask them to do. Astronaut (talk) 18:26, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Not to contradict Astronaut, but just some things to keep in mind. Rubber parts get brittle with age. Sometimes it's cheaper if your mechanic changes things that are known to wear out at about the same time, than you taking it in for two separate jobs. My old Olds is about twice as old as your Pontiac but I've recently had it in the shop 3 times in a row to exchange parts that, with a little bit more foresight, could have been done in one go. If one rubber part is worn out due to age it's a good idea to have them look at others in the same category. Getting a second opinion generally is a good idea. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It's certainly the case that rubber gets brittle with age - and regardless of the number of miles on the car - the timing belt does need to be replaced periodically. The consequences of the timing belt breaking varies dramatically from car to car. Many years ago, the timing belt on my Ford Ranger pickup broke. The truck wouldn't drive anymore - but I was able to replace the timing belt myself in an afternoon - it cost me $10 - and life was good. The lack of the proper timing of the engine valves (either when the belt snaps - or if it 'skips' enough) can cause the rising piston to hit either inlet or exhaust valves that are incorrectly opening instead of being tightly shut. In my truck engine - the cylinders were set up such that no matter how far 'off' the timing is - the valves never descend low enough to hit the piston (this is called a "non-interference" engine). So the timing goes haywire, the engine stalls out and that's all. But on engines that have valves that open far enough to potentially hit the piston then VERY BAD THINGS happen. Typically, the valve stems get bent - often the piston gets chipped, sometime the bearings on the piston are cracked...in short "game over". It is common to have to scrap almost the entire engine following a timing belt snappage. Hence - if you have a non-interference engine, you can be rather relaxed about changing your timing belt. The worst that can happen is that you don't get where you're going and need a tow to the nearest garage. But if you have an "interference engine" then you'd better change that belt at least as often as the manufacturer recommends - or sooner or later, you're going to be spending thousands of dollars on a new engine. Trust me - if the garage says "Change the timing belt" - you change the timing belt! SteveBaker (talk) 23:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there any way to inspect the belt's condition without pulling everything apart? I think I had mine changed just a few years ago, but unfortunately I didn't keep records and I'm not really sure. --Trovatore (talk) 01:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Nope - the belt itself is likely to be ridiculously cheap - almost 100% of the bill will be labor. Once you've gotten the car to the point where you can see the belt, you might as well change it even if it looks 100% perfect...and indeed that's what any reputable garage will do. Replacing the water pump is also often indicated because when you've pulled enough bits off to get to the timing belt, you've probably already pulled off the water pump. However, the cost of a replacement water pump is a lot more than a timing belt - and the consequences of a broken water pump are unlikely to be anything like as severe as a broken timing belt on an 'interference' engine (unless you ignore the temperature warning light/gauge of course!) - so if your budget is tight, you might want to forget about doing the water pump until it breaks...but again - if you have to change the water pump, then changing the timing belt at the same time is ridiculously easy - so you should certainly do that. If your engine is definitely of the 'non-interference' type - you could certainly be more lax about the whole thing and not bother to replace the timing belt until it fails - but if you have an 'interference' engine - then you're gambling the cost of a new engine if it breaks - so err on the side of caution! The reason cars have maintenance logs at the back of the owner's handbook is so you can find out when things like timing belts were replaced - but many garages (particularly the ones that aren't dealerships) are very lax about filling them out. However, you might want to look in your log book and see if the garage maybe left a note saying that they changed it. Also, if you had the water pump changed they probably changed the timing belt then. Timing belts need changing at least every 50,000 miles. SteveBaker (talk) 14:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Steve, just FYI: In the Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche universe, 80K or 90K miles is a more-likely timing belt replacement interval. And in my 1978 VW Scirocco (which was a "non-bender" engine), I got ticked off when the local dealer told me, at 20K miles, that my timing belt was going to break. So I let it go and sure enough, 100K miles later, the dealer was right! The timing belt broke. But I didn't have that dealer change it ;-). -- Atlant (talk) 22:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

What kinda car is this?

Leading a tickertape parade for the returning Apollo 11 astronauts is a car I don't recognize. Any ideas? The whole series of photos is great. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 16:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The Eagle is perched atop what looks like the Cadillac shield. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:12, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article about the car says it was a Chrysler Imperial Parade Phaeton. (I know next to nothing about cars, but I messed around on Google a bit to find it, so I'm not 100% sure that it's correct.) AlexiusHoratius 17:16, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Not to be confused with the Volkswagen Phaeton, or any of the other cars named Phaeton. Popular name for car models, I guess. Nimur (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

A "phaeton" automobile was originally on open four-door vehicle: not a convertible, exactly, but an open car with side curtains and an emergency top. The one in the picture is a "dual cowl phaeton", with a second windshield to isolate the owners from the help. "Imperial" is right[13]. PhGustaf (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

• I'm pretty amused that the picture that I asked about is (on Wikipedia) the defining instance of the car. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 01:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
  • A good followup question would be, "Where is that car now?" Is it still in operation? Is it in a museum? Did it get retooled into the luxury version of the PT Cruiser? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
    • Never mind, the article says all 3 cars are still in use. Hard to imagine using 50-year-old cars, but they probably don't actually get a lot of use so the the odometer reading is probably not too far off the charts. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

This article from the gov't of NYC gives a bit more information than our article does; it looks like the car recently spent 6 months getting rebuilt and restored. (It says each bumper weighed 200 lbs.) AlexiusHoratius 04:56, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Given that the cars roll only a few times a year, and only at 10MPH or so, they'll probably outlast all of us. It's not as if the market were glutted with new dual cowl phaetons. I'm pretty sure that Virgil Exner made one or two of them when he tried to resuscitate the Stutz and Deusenberg brands, but I can't drag up an example up online. PhGustaf (talk) 09:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Nazism vs. Fascism

I've read the articles Nazism and Fascism, and (while I admit being confused at times by the vast number of '-ism' links) I can't see much of a difference between the ideologies. I've heard people use the terms interchangeably, and don't want to fall into the same trap. The closest thing I could find was at Nazism#Fascism, which starts with: "In both popular thought and academic scholarship, Nazism is generally considered a form of fascism – a term whose definition is itself contentious." If this is so, can I still distinguish between them? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 18:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Nazism is the specific instance of fascism that dominated the political scene in Germany between about 1933 and 1945. "Fascism" also includes non-Nazi groups, such as the Italian fascists, the Spanish fascists, and so on. (Some historians even call the Soviet Union and Imperial Japan fascist, but in my opinion this is a mis-use of the terminology). In fact there is no shortage of more recent pejorative application of the term, ranging from well-thought-out intellectual comparisons, to mindless partisan sniping. Historians at large do not always agree on the boundaries of the applicability of these terms. Some sources claim that "fascism" is merely a pejorative label for any government which has some elements of repression; while other historians and political scientists suggest that it specifically refers to a particular set of policies and practices. The social sciences generally suffer from poor definition of terms; your "confusion" might actually reflect the fact that you have done a more-than-superficial job researching the meaning of these terms; and you have seen them used in contradictory contexts. Nimur (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Italian Fascism, from which the term comes, differs in a number of ways from Nazism. One way I have heard it explained is that Italian Fascism focuses on the state as the prime mover in history, whereas Nazism focuses on the race (and Marxism, in its way, focuses on the class). In the Nazi instance, identifying the race with the state certainly blurred the lines (and similarly, one could argue that no Communist movement actually focused on the "class" in the true sense, but that's another debate altogether). But one could be an Fascist and not a Nazi, if that makes sense, even if one could not really be a Nazi without being a Fascist. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 19:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Any book about Fascism will go into this question in some detail, although of course their opinions and conclusions will differ. Fascism specifically describes the political movement founded by Benito Mussolini in Italy after World War I, but of course also describes a wide variety of other movements that modelled themselves after this movement, including National Socialism (Nazism). In practice, most European fascist movements were, or later became, anti-Semitic to one degree or another, but this isn't an essential characteristic: before it took a decidedly anti-Semitic turn around 1938, Mussolini boasted that one of the members of the Partito Nazionale Fascista (National Fascist Party) was the Chief Rabbi of Italy, and it's not inherently self-contradictory to discuss the possibility of Jewish or Zionist fascism. (In fact, fascist movements had a wide variety of attitudes towards Zionism.)

However the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) built by Hitler was inherently anti-Semitic, as seen in its initial 25-Point Program[me]. There is, except in anti-Zionist hyperbole, no meaning to a phrase such as "Jewish Nazism" (although the Nazis did toy with Zionism as a possible aid to removing Jews from Europe). Although he thought of Nazism as a unique renewal movement of the German people, Hitler rarely if ever failed to acknowledge a debt to Mussolini as an inspirer and creator of the fascist idea and fascist methods of organization. When fascists from different countries gathered together (such as at Mussolini's international fascist exposition in Rome), Nazis were prominent participants.

There are more subtle parallels, differences and distinctions that could be made — such as attitudes towards religion (especially Roman Catholicism), Lebensraum and mass-extermination — but I'll leave that to the experts. —— Shakescene (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you all for the clarification points. I have just read the Simple English Wikipedia's articles on the subject, and I found them to be excellent clarification as well. I feel I know enough that I can accurately distinguish them in context, or at least tell when one term or the other is used incorrectly.--Ye Olde Luke (talk) 08:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Just to add to this a little, an important distinction is that Nazism had a lot of aspects fascism (and I mean fascism in general, rather than any specific form) doesn't: a cult of personality, racism, eugenics, militarism, etc. Nazism contains elements of fascism, certainly, but it's a lot more wide-ranging ideology than fascism alone. At its core, Nazism was based on an specific image of national pride and identity, as well as a specific political and cultural set of circumstances: it was an identity for Germans and Aryans. Fascism, by contrast, isn't limited to a single country any more than democracy is, because it's an overarching ideology. It's a little like saying that Coca-Cola is a soft drink, but not all soft drinks are Coca-Cola, really. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:40, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Unemployed educated people in an information society

Why do they exits? Shouldn't they be like a commodity, that is always traded if the price is low enough.--Quest09 (talk) 19:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes people simply aren't willing to work for less than they think they are worth. Also, the employment market is highly illiquid, so the usual rules don't exactly apply. It takes a long time to get a job even if there are plenty available since the process is so long (applications, interviews, etc.). Also, people don't accept pay cuts when they are no longer worth what they were being paid before and often won't change jobs to get higher wages if they quite like the job they have. --Tango (talk) 20:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

(EC) There is latency in the system and there is a minimum level for wages; and these are enough to produce the phenomenon. There's also the concept of inelastic demand ... I probably only want one or two employer, not 4 or 8 or 16. No matter how the price falls, I'm not going to greatly up the numbers I employ - not least since there are appreciable costs associated with employment apart from wages - think office space, equipment, supervision &c. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:04, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

There's also a cost to employees for being employed. They have to pay for things like commuting, childcare, eating out, etc. If the wage that they are offered doesn't look as though it might cover that, they'll stay at home till a better offer comes along. They also won't take a lower rate for a certain period, because it's unlikely they'll be hired at a higher rate by the next company once they started working for the lower rate. There are certain idiosyncrasies in hiring. An applicant who has waited out a slump, let's say a trained engineer, will be considered more qualified than someone with the same qualifications who worked as an office assistant for a year. The cost of looking for and taking a job also increases exponentially (idiomatic not mathematical use) with the distance from one's residence. If the employee has to move there are costs like down payment for a house or a security deposit for an apartment. Loss of (free) services from their establish3ed social network. Costs associated with moving kids to a new school. etc. If you were employed in widget manufacturing and it looks as though the market for widgets is shrinking, moving to another place that still makes widgets might be uneconomical vs. retraining to become a whatchamacallit maker. So the widget manufacturer in Podunk will have an opening while you register as unemployed in South-Hazard. (All this is just the tip of a very large iceberg. Things are just not quite that simple.) 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there is also the question of specialisation. Someone who makes it through high school - but no further - generally has a pretty broad-based education - they know a little about everything. But once you've done 3 or 4 years through college, you come out with expertise in one very narrow field - but no better education than the high-school graduate in the wider aspects of knowledge. So if you have law degrees out the wazoo - but there are no lawyering jobs around - you can't just decide to become a chemist or an architect because your knowledge of those subjects is no better than a high-school graduate. That's not perfectly, 100% true - there is scope to use the ability to learn (that you have demonstrated by graduating in law) to perhaps parlay your way into a higher level position in a 'nearby' field. But generally speaking, that narrowness of field is what mostly results in unemployed yet highly educated people. SteveBaker (talk) 23:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

It's quite a lot less than 100% true. A large proportion, perhaps even a majority, of graduate jobs just ask for "a degree", they don't care what in. (I've recently graduated and am job hunting, so I know a little of the graduate job market.) Specialisation probably isn't really a problem until you've got a few years work experience. If that work experience is in something specific then you are likely to have to go for entry-level jobs in any other field, which will entail a pay cut. (It may go the other way with enough work experience as you are likely to have managerial experience, which isn't so field-specific.) --Tango (talk) 23:33, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this also depends significantly on which country you're talking about. In the States, most students are taking General Education requirements for at least the first two years of a four-year undergraduate program, and very often they'll take at least some classes outside their major-plus-related-fields all four years. In Continental Europe, on the other hand, university students are much more specialized, so much so that often medical doctors and lawyers have only a first university degree. I have the notion that the UK is somewhere in between, but that's just an offhand impression. --Trovatore (talk) 02:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm one of these people, and it's more of a matter of personal ethics than economics. You couldn't pay me enough money to do something I didn't see the point of. If someone wants to make car commercials or build houses that's their business, but I won't waste my energy on such questionable ends. It helps that I have a good relationship with my parents so I don't have to starve on account of my principles, I should point out. Vranak (talk) 23:17, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Building houses is a questionable end? FFS, if I may say so. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Most houses are so poorly-ventilated that are something of a health hazard to anyone in them. When architects start thinking about air quality a little more, I'll retract my skepticism. The thing is, most of the new houses in my area, although they look pretty, are full of windows that don't open. This is not good, unless you are in the business of selling drugs to lung cancer patients. Vranak (talk) 23:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

OR you'll outgrow that once you're standing on your own legs. I used to not want to work for a long list of companies, like in the chemicals industry, nuclear power, big oil, logging, etc. etc. That fizzled into How much will they pay and when do I start? :-)71.236.26.74 (talk) 00:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

We'll see. I'd rather starve to death than take part in mindless industry. Vranak (talk) 15:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

You'll find it exceedingly difficult to find an industry that isn't in some way "mindless". Houses without windows are that way for some sort of sound business reason - maybe they are cheaper - maybe there is some kind of local law - maybe that's what their customers are demanding - there must be a reason. That's not to say it's a good reason...but there's the problem. Every business is stuck with some kind of bad decision or something that's been going on so long that it's hard to change. SteveBaker (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget the basic economics of supply and demand, too. If there is a glut of employers but a shortage of potential employees, it's more likely a person will be hired with little or no experience. When there is a glut of employees, as there was in law when i graduated, employers may pick and choose more readily, and will expect experience, hence someone without experience will not have much success. Hence, I opened my own practice, which never got to the point where I could take on anyone else as an associate. (Then I got burned out went back for another degree, and the economy stunk by the time I was done with that.)

Factoid about lawyers, the number went from 400 to 1600 in the Akron Bar Association from 1980 to 2000, if memory serves. You can see why there was a glut. :-)Somebody or his brother (talk) 01:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Although it doesn't make total sense according to intuitive logic (half a loaf being better than none) for this to stop an educated person taking up a new field for less compensation, there are many professions where the cost of education or training has to be paid back or amortised (e.g. student loans for law or medical school). The previous job may have paid enough to cover this, or helped directly with the payments (e.g. forgiving government loans to those who take up teaching or military service) while a new job might not. Or some loans may be suspended during periods of unemployment, but require resumption of payments when any job (at any rate of pay) is taken.

But these are rather specific practical concerns. The broader general question is much more interesting. —— Shakescene (talk) 04:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Unsuccessful dilettantes like me can always be made uncomfortable by President Calvin Coolidge's smug aphorisms about Persistence:

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Calvin_Coolidge/ —— Shakescene (talk) 06:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow, Coolidge said that? All at once, or over the course of a week or so? --Trovatore (talk) 08:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It does seem excessively wordy for Silent Cal. I've also seen that attributed to Teddy Roosevelt, which makes me wonder who really wrote it. I'm guessing it was an early telemarketer. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that we may have a shortage of people with a particular skill/qualification set (lawyers perhaps) - that drives up salaries and makes jobs plentiful. Kids entering college look at that and go "Wow! I've gotta become a lawyer and earn the big bucks!" - so they grind away at that for anything from four to eight years - but in that time, the economy has changed - and four to eight years worth of law-school outpourings have entered the market - so by the time they emerge with degree in hand - the jobs have dried up, the salaries have plummetted and they're in deep trouble. The economy changes in considerably less time than it takes to earn the qualification. Fortunately, in many instances, it swings back again...but there can be painful times in between.SteveBaker (talk) 19:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

See Sticky (economics) for more on the economists' eternal lament that "nominal wages are sticky." - BanyanTree 13:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Cattle herding

When did people start using horses to herd cattle in Europe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.78.9.164 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Using horses to herd cattle is rarely done in Europe. Farm land there is quite fragmented and I bet they invented fences before their herds got big enough to use a horse to herd them. There may be areas in Europe that did so, but off-hand none come to mind. Traditionally there were either peasants working for a feudal owner or free farmers. For the latter the land owned was often split between heirs, so farms were small and kept getting smaller. In some areas the firstborn son would inherit the farm and any farmland that was brought into a marriage by the bride could sometimes be swapped with other farmers to get plots closer together. Cattle farming in large herds was also not that widespread in Europe AFAIK. Land that was suitable to be ploughed and planted with crop was used that way. Goats, sheep and donkeys often took the roles of cattle in less favorable areas. A couple of heads of cattle can be herded by cowherds without using a horse, which would have been rather uneconomical because it costs a lot to feed and has only limited use as meat animal. Child labor often was cheaper. Horses were more commonly used in war, for transportation and Draft horses instead of oxen. Draft horses aren't mobile enough to herd cattle, ponies are too small and the Spanish more nimble breeds were usually used for hunting or pulling carriages for nobility or by mail couriers. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm utterly ignorant, but weren't dogs (e.g. the bulldog) sometimes used for this purpose as they're now used to herd sheep, or only to guard cattle against predators and thieves? —— Shakescene (talk) 06:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Bulldogs were ever used for herding. European herding dogs include various types of Herders and Heelers; Sheepdogs and Shepherds; Collies; and even Corgis and some terriers. Exploding Boy (talk) 06:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Reading the bulldog article, I see that it's apparently the other way 'round: they were used for bull-baiting in England (which I should have thought of), but at least once to round up cattle in New York. —— Shakescene (talk) 06:32, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

cattle in new york?? there arent any cattle in new york! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionabout"theman" adolf (talk • contribs) 12:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

New York is a state, not just the island of manhattan and it would seem very likely that at some point in history there has been cattle reared there (assuming that comment wasn't just a joke, in which case my humour-sensor needs replacing). ny156uk (talk) 13:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I took the comment as humo[u]rous, but the reference was to the city rather than the state, as reading the actual Wikipedia article on bulldogs will show (I knew none of this until reading it):

However, the bulldog's early role was not limited to sport. In mid-17th century New York, bulldogs were used as a part of a city-wide round-up effort led by governor Richard Nicolls. Because cornering and leading wild bulls was dangerous, bulldogs were trained to seize a bull by its nose long enough for a rope to be secured around its neck. [5]. The use of dogs for fighting with other dogs or other animals was banned in the United Kingdom by the Cruelty to Animals Act 1835, but Bulldogs as pets were continually promoted by dog dealer Bill George[6].

(In the same vein, a Northern California dairy called Berkeley Farms once ran a popular series of radio commercials that asked "Cows in Berkeley?", followed by a loud moo.) —— Shakescene (talk) 22:09, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

See next question posted -- Alexandr Dmitri (Александр Дмитрий) (talk) 17:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Until they settled in present-day Hungary in 896 CE, the Magyar tribes were nomadic herders of cattle (and some sheep) on horseback, as being traders and raiders as well, they virtually lived on horseback. I am sure they didn't substitute child labour the moment they decided to give up the nomadic lifestyle. The idea was not likely to spread to neighbouring nations that didn't have horses. - KoolerStill (talk) 12:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

New York City did not always encompass the entire island of Manhattan. In fact, Wall Street, at the very southern tip of the island, was the northern boundary of the city at one point. There were farms throughout the rest of Manhattan. There may have been, and probably were, cattle there. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

To answer the question "When did people start using horses to herd cattle in Europe?" one must remember that Europe is contiguous with Asia (hence Eurasia), and that practices invented in the latter probably spread to the former quite quickly, that is to say over no more than a few hundred years. From archeological and philological studies, it appears that the spread of the Proto-Indo-Europeans' language and culture, arguably from the area of the Eurasian steppes north of the Black, Caspian and Aral Seas, was enabled by that cultures' innovative combination of the wheel (in the form of carts and chariots), the pulling power of cattle (i.e. oxen) and the mobility afforded by riding horses, and (perhaps a little subsequently) also using them as draught animals.

According to our article on Domestication, cattle of the species Bos primigenius taurus are thought to have been domesticated around 8000 BCE in India, the Middle East and Sub-Saharan Africa; the earliest domestications of other related species, latterly hybridised with B primigenius taurus, in East Asia and elsewhere are either later or undetermined. Horses were domesticated on the Eurasian Steppes (by the Proto-Indo-European speakers themselves or their close neighbors) from at least 4000 BCE, initially as meat herd animals, but evidence of bone and tooth wear suggests use of individuals for draught and/or riding purposes at least as early as 3500 BCE. There is evidence suggesting that the first ridden horses were used to hunt and herd other wild horses, but it seems likely that their use to herd cattle would have been an obvious and early application: the Proto-Indo-Europeans had probably spread to Eastern Europe proper by 2500 BCE, so it's a fair assumption that herding cattle with horses was practiced in Europe at least that early.

The remarks by other Posters above about European land enclosure patterns are true in a recent or modern context, but longer ago fields were restricted to the close vicinity of settlements, so there was ample scope, where economically appropriate, for long-distance cattle droving. In Britain cattle were, for example, annually driven from Wales to London along routes that are still traceable on modern Ordinance Survey maps: one crosses the A33 a few miles north of Winchester at spot called Roman Post, where until a couple of years ago a one-time drovers' inn called Lunways ("London Ways") stood. On Continental Europe the practice of Transhumance is still widely practiced, whereby cattle (as well as other livestock) are driven from lowland winter to upland summer pastures. In some cases the distances involved are considerable, and doubtless horses are sometimes employed. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 23:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

July 27

What are some business awards?

What are some major business awards for individuals, such as lifetime achievement awards or prestigious honors? Is there a list somewhere for this? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.223.76.123 (talk) 03:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Capital accumulation :) --Dr Dima (talk) 04:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

IBM Fellow? Dismas|^(talk) 05:14, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Deming Prize? —— Shakescene (talk) 06:20, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Better Business Bureau has a couple: Torch, Eclipse and Integrity. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 07:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

In the UK, I believe you can get an OBE for services to making yourself filthy rich. ;-) AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:12, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Business and industry awards --Boris straight (talk) 14:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Would this one qualify X Prize Foundation (The prizes not the foundation.) Never heard about this one before, but here it is: [14] -- 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Protests listed

Is there any site online which lists protests, demonstrations, marches, lie-ins, etc. around the world categorized by location and cause? Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

http://protest.net/ ? Nanonic (talk) 08:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! That site is quite poorly updated though. Are there some others? --S.dedalus (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

How about Wikipedia? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, OH WAIT! I just found Category: Protests. 152.16.16.75 (talk) 09:21, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

From the reply, I think the OP might be wanting info on protests that haven't happened yet and shouldn't be in wikipedia. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:34, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

questions

1. is it ever ok for a teacher to call you a "dickwad" becuase I got an email from my teacher and he starts the email "hi dickwad" - TBH he's a good guy and we have a laughs a laugh and a joke's a joke but that might be a step too far, and if I reply saying "hi cocksmoker" he might just slap me in detention?

2. also what is louder a whale or a field full of crickets?

3. also is it possible that a piece of fruit could be put in the ass after death?? because in the case of michael barrymore and the man in the pool they say that the apple was put there in the mortuary and that barrymore is not guilty but WHY WOULD TYHEY PUT IT THERE THEN?? doesnt make any sense —Preceding unsigned comment added by Questionabout"theman" adolf (talk • contribs) 12:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The Blue Whale is the loudest animal in the world[15], with a volume underwater of over 180 dB. As to your other questions, I don't think the reference desk can give a definite answer. It's certainly possible to put a piece of fruit in somebody's ass after death; morticians often stick a cotton wool plug up there[16]. --Boris straight (talk) 14:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If I were the student in question and got an e-mail like that from a teacher (I'm assuming were talking high school here), I would first take it to my parents and say, "Is this appropriate?" Because a complaint from a parent is going to carry a lot more weight than a complaint from a student. Regarding the Barrymore case, there's nothing in the article about it, so even bringing up such a rumor here might be a BLP violation. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:05, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not appropriate (and quite stupid) for a teacher to call you a name like that. If you were so inclined you could easily get him in a lot of trouble. It's very dumb on his part (says a fellow teacher), showing very poor judgment. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in my opinion the teacher should be fired for a comment like that, unless that's the normal way that teacher and that student communicate - which it sounds like it's not, or he wouldn't have raised the question. And even if it were, it shouldn't be, as it's unprofessional. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the Reference Desk needs some kind of training session to recognize trolls. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Some questions, no matter who asks them, have legitimate value.--WaltCip (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

On part 1. Your teacher is not keeping an appropriate level of professional detachment - and would surely get into horribly deep trouble if the school (or worse still, the local press) were to catch wind of it. Familiarity and friendliness with pupils is OK - but this is WAY overstepping the mark. IMHO - if the teacher is otherwise a good one - you should ignore it and continue to speak and email to him in a suitable deferential manner. If the guy is useless - then maybe you just found some ammunition - let your parents know and let them deal with it.

On part 2. Whales are indeed pretty amazingly loud - but there is a question of distance. Because the whale's vocal chords are effectively a point source - but the field full of crickets covers a few dozen acres - might it not be the case that when you are standing at one corner of the field, you're really comparing just a few crickets that are extremely close to you - to a whale that's hundreds of feet away. Given that the volume of the sound drops off as the square of the distance - might not a cricket that's (say) 5 feet away be louder than the whale at a few hundred feet? If the whale can produce 150db at a distance of (say) 5 feet - then at 500 feet, it's 10,000 times quieter. How loud is a handful or crickets at 5 feet?

On part 3. Well, of course it's possible. Is it likely? No.

SteveBaker (talk) 18:51, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Where in Barrymore's ass was the apple found? Edison (talk) 20:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Not Barrymore, the guy who died at his house. As to where, I dunno, but I'm guessing it was put there in order to feed the gerbil. Or am I getting my urban legends mixed up? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Why not just e-mail your teacher back and start off "A bit over the limit weren't you?" or "Hi inappropriate." It would serve as a warning shot, probably cool down the relationship somewhat without totally sending things up the creek. The "official" view of "the teacher should be fired" ignores the fragile social situation of school life. If the teacher actually does get laid off (very likely once parents get involved) and gets replaced by a more distant applicant, not only is there a chance that student motivation and teaching effects are going to suffer (thus hurting all fellow students) it's also very likely that OP will be handed the "dork of the year award" and enjoying school from an underdog position tends to be an unpleasant experience. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Just how likely is it that this teacher would call you "dickwad"? Perhaps their email account has been compromised or the mail headers are faked and it is in fact from someone else. I would check the mail out very carefully before making a complete fool of yourself and destroying the good professional realtionship you seem to have with this teacher. Astronaut (talk) 23:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Growing Mushrooms

Of late im really into mushrooms, How hard does the reference desk suppose it would be to grow them or should i just stick to the sore brought kind (ive looked through instructables but it all seems either expensive or dangerous..) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.244.92 (talk) 13:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you done a google search for "Mushroom Logs"? They are not expensive (about 40 euro) and will keep producing mushrooms with very little work on your part. Fribbler (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Sometimes the Garden departments of large supermarkets or hardware stores sell "mushroom farms" - a plastic lined cardboard box containing all you need, including instructions. If you let them go to full open cup size, you can get 10 or 12 lbs from one box, in several flushes. I used to cut the box in half and only use half at a time, to keep the crop to a manageable level for 2 people.

They need a coolish dark place. The closet under the stairs is fine, or a corner of laundry, in an apartment. Once you get the hang of it, next season you can prepare your own bed for them, and send away for little vials of more exotic varieties. - KoolerStill (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Horse manure is very good for edible mushrooms if you can get it. As for 'seeds' I think they are called spores - so search the web for 'edible mushroom spores' if you can't get them at the supermarket. If you are lucky and you can get the manure, you maybe lucky enough for the mushrooms to already be in it. see http://www.nifg.org.uk/edible_fungi.htm Agaricus arvensis - it's like the standard white mushrooms in the shops but it grows massive (12"). They are as good as the articles say.83.100.250.79 (talk) 20:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

What you want is Mycelium instead of spores. I hope we are talking food source edible mushrooms here. Depending on where you live a bale of straw kept moist and in a dark place works best. [17], [18] --71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Origins of the brand name 'Dr Pepper'

Does anyone know if Dr Pepper was actually someone's name? He could have been the guy who invented it... Chevymontecarlo (talk) 16:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Our article Dr Pepper has some rather speculative information. Algebraist 16:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Related question: Their ad jingle for a long time said "Be a Pepper". Did this have any meaning whatsoever in the broader culture when it was introduced? Was it a play on words of some kind? I never understood the appeal of the phrase. The article only says, tersely and matter-of-factly, that the jingle referred to consumers of the beverage as "Peppers". Tempshill (talk) 16:54, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I assumed it had something to do with "pep". Adam Bishop (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I believe so - 'pep' is a shortening of 'pepper' - and according to Wiktionary it's meaning is: "To inject with energy and enthusiasm."...pretty much what a caffienated sugary drink is supposed to do. Where the heck the "Dr" part comes from? Well, perhaps they wanted to imply that this "pepping up" effect had some kind of medicinal basis? It's hard to know over such a long separation in time and culture. SteveBaker (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks — I guess this makes sense; though, as full of caffeinated energy as I may be, the slogan does not cause me to want to describe myself as a "Pepper" under any circumstances. Tempshill (talk) 00:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There are sources saying it was named after an historical person, Dr. Charles T. Pepper [19] [20] [21] and other revisionist sources casting doubts on that story [22]. It's just like Henry Ford said in 1916, "History is bunk." (Some sources deny that Ford actually said that:[23]). Edison (talk) 20:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Many of the early soft drinks were produced at pharmacies, so it's natural that someone might attach "Dr." to one of them, although if you get real desperate, their official site might have an explanation. "Pep" was and is a popular term, as noted above; considered to be something good. It indicates being lively, full of energy, "vim and vigor", that sort of thing - and, by extension, something that will give you pep. Hence "Pepsi Cola", for example. And a now-defunct Kellogg's cereal called "Pep". And the smallish bands they have at college games, "pep bands", intended to "liven things up". Getting high on drugs was considered bad, but getting high on sugar and caffeine was and is considered OK, or at least it's common practice. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

And of course there's Pepper (baseball). All of these usages presumably connected with the spiciness of pepper plants, which "liven" your food. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of baseball, the Dr. Pepper slogan, 10-2-4, is the scorecard notation for a very rare sort of double play in softball. I bet that's where it came from. PhGustaf (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That definitely sounds definitive. Could even be a triple play: 10th fielder catches fly ball; throws to catcher to get the runner from third; catcher throws to second base to get the runner from first. A little more Pepper, and the runners would have been safe. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't drink too much of it, though. Keep in mind that it turned the "Be a Pepper" guy into a werewolf. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:57, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I was in the Dr. Pepper museum in Waco, TX about a decade ago. My recollection (which could be entirely faulty) was that they said the name Dr. Pepper was not based on any real person. Take that for what it is worth. Dragons flight (talk) 01:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarification that may or may not be relevant: I think that the "Pep" in Pepsi-Cola may refer not only to peppermint or "pep", but also to [eu]peptic, i.e. as an aid to digestion (as in Pepto-Bismol, not recommended as an ingredient for soft drinks or mixers.). I don't know if this has any relevance to the "Pep" in Dr. Pepper. Cf. the English soft-drink Tizer, "the appetizer". —— Shakescene (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Statistics and discrimination

It is clear that some companies members of some group overrepresented. For example, much younger as the average or much more men than woman in power positions. Is it enough to accuse a company of discriminating against members of the underrepresented groups? Or must the company have an explicit rule against members of a group (like no woman need to apply) to be considered discriminating?--Quest09 (talk) 17:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The question of equal opportunity versus equality of outcome is very difficult to answer. Ricci v. DeStefano was a case recently decided by the US Supreme Court regarding Title VII hiring discrimination guidelines. A mere accusation of discrimination is not sufficient grounds for finding fault; however, fault is found well before an explicit rule is codified. Even your use of "overrepresented" is contentious: a group may have disproportionate representation without being overrepresented (or underrepresented), as equality of outcome is rarely a requirement. — Lomn 17:41, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

It's tough to prove - you'd need to show that (for example) the ratio of suitably-qualified women to suitably-qualified men who applied for a particular set of jobs resulted in a lower ratio of women to men actually being recruited. You can't only look at the ratio of people in jobs right now because women in their 20's and early 30's leave the workplace to bring up children disproportionately more often than men do. That's a societal matter that the company has no control over. Men generally retire at a higher age than women. Possible descrimination long ago - before it was illegal - may also result in a bias amongst older workers. Not only that - but the bias has to be statistically significant - five or even ten more men than women in a workforce of 100 people isn't going to be convincing evidence of bias because that kind of ratio could easily come about just by chance when the employer is being 100% gender-neutral in hiring and firing.

But consider the company where I work - we make computer games. We have 50 employees in the offices where I work - only three are women - and not one of those is a programmer (one is our HR person - the other two are graphic artists). Is this clear and damning evidence of bias? Well, no - it's not. We had 20 resume's for a particular programming job that recently opened up, not one single one of them was from a woman! In fact, over the past year we've recruited 35 people (yes, we're a booming company!) - and I have yet to see ANY resume's from women for computer programming positions. In fact, over my entire 30 year career in computer graphics - I've only known 3 female graphics programmers! All three were very good at their jobs - it's certainly not that women somehow can't do this work. How on earth can we hope to maintain a 50/50 ratio under those circumstances? If anything, we might be accused of reverse gender bias because if we ever did get a resume from a woman, we'd clearly be super-careful not to reject her illegally. That alone would ensure that her resume would be at least carefully examined - which is half the battle in a crowded job market. All I can guess is that any discrimination happens much earlier - in the education system perhaps - or maybe for some reason women simply don't generally find that kind of job compelling. It's hard to say - but as we like to say here: "Correlation does not imply Causation". Just because there are few women in the workplace doesn't necessarily imply that we're discriminating...and that's another reason why genuine discrimination is so hard to prove. (Incidentally - if you are a graphics programmer - either male or female and you are able to work in the Austin, Texas area - email me! We need to talk!) SteveBaker (talk) 14:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Any group that is not perfectly representative of the entire universe of possibilities can be accused of discrimination. It is an entirely different matter (and, one defined by law, which we don’t do here at the reference desk) as to whether that alleged discrimination is significant, illegal or just happenchance. DOR (HK) (talk) 02:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest reading the book Race and Culture by Thomas Sowell - disproportionate representation may not be discrimination, or it might be for vastly different reasons one might think (his book focus more on race rather than age and/or sex). I personally found his argument convincing, but your opinion may differ (a quick Google search turn up this. Either way the book is certainly an interesting read. Royor (talk) 10:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning a model railway

I have a Hornby model railway which I store under my bed. When not in use I cover it with a dust sheet. I was just wondering what the best ways of cleaning the layout are. Chevymontecarlo (talk) 18:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Try using a sable / synthetic fibre paintbrush (widely available from art material stores) to dislodge heavy coatings of dust. After that a standard museum cleaning practice is to use a vacuum cleaner with an upholstery attachment covered with a large piece of muslin. It should be large enough and heavy enough to not actually get sucked up by the vacuum. Do not get the nozzle close enough to touch the item, or it may be sucked up and ruined! If the dust covering is very heavy u could try cleaning with those damp tissues you would use for cleaning a baby's bottom - they are designed to be very sensitive to skin and thus should be gentle enough to be used. This should not be used if there are chips or cracks, as the water based moisturiser could cause internal parts made of iron to rust. You could always contact the manufacturer directly to ask for their advice —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.246.122 (talk) 20:40, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The brush is a good idea. Whether a vacuum cleaner is, depends on what your setup looks like an how far you can power it down. If you have landscape with "fake grass" and "fake moss trees" even a light suction action may dislodge things to end up in a bigger mess than you started with (OR). It also depends on how much work you are willing to invest. A box of cotton swabs moistened with very little water works, but takes ages. You should also not use them on the rails or electrical parts. For storing your set under your bed try using a plastic cover made for outdoor furniture to keep dust out. e.g. [24] --71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If the actual rails are getting corroded, you might want to wipe them down with an alcohol pad of some kind to make better contact with the wheels. Use 3in1 oil for lubricating wheels and motors - but try not to get it onto electrical contacts. Aside from that - you need to be careful with a vacuum cleaner not to suck up small, carefully modelled details - at least keep the airflow to a minimum - use one of the softer brush attachments and keep the vacuum cleaner on it's lowest setting. If you have one of those little 'dust-buster' hand vacuum cleaners - then that's even better. Gentle is good! I'd also recommend getting a bottle of "canned air" from a store that sells computers or electronics...it's an aerosol spray that's great for blowing dust and fluff out of small crevices. SteveBaker (talk) 13:48, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Incidents that need multiple emergency services

When you dial 999 in the UK, you are asked which services you require (i.e. police, ambulance, fire or lifeguard). I have never had to call when the situation obviously required more than one service, and I just wondered how that was managed. I imagine that you would ask for one service and then somebody would decide that another service had to be contacted, but who would do that? For example, if you saw somebody stabbed in the street, called and asked for the ambulance service, who decides to call the police (likewise if you asked for the police, who would decide to call the ambulance service)? I have been told that in other countries, for example Canada, you just call and tell the operator what the situation is, and then the operator decides who to route it to. How does that work and why is the UK different? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Squashed Star (talk) 19:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

The presumption in the United States is that the caller is not trained, nor are they likely in a calm, rational state of mind. The job of the dispatcher is to interpret the situation and route the appropriate services, which may include police, ambulance, etc. Also note that in most US jurisdictions, almost all ambulances are private services, while police and firefighters are usually local government employees. Nimur (talk) 20:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, so it sounds like the dispatcher is the one who makes the decision. I wonder why the UK is different, and who makes the decision? My experience is that once you select a service you are routed to that service and then deal with its operators. I would imagine that they make the decision to call other services, but I would if there is some other system of coorination. Thanks Squashed Star (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

You are responsible for the initial decision, daunting as that might sound. Once you're connected to the actual service's call handler they will take into account everything you tell them and request assistance from the other services as required. I haven't been able to find official guidance but I would suggest calling the following first under the circumstances:-

• Ambulance - Any kind of serious injury or life threatening condition - minutes are critical here. Inform them if there are people trapped in vehicles, they will then request fire service assistance. Also inform them if the injuries are due to crime, they will inform the police.
• Fire - call first when there is an actual fire - smoke/flames or a chemical spillage - call Ambulance first if serious casualties are evident and allow them to call fire service.
• Police - Crime in progress/offenders on scene but call Ambulance first if someone has been injured as a crime consequence and allow them to inform police
• Coastguard - Priority if incident at sea and immediate response required to prevent loss of life, they will request ambulance assistance if required
• Mountain/Cave Rescue - Priority in appropiate environments - they will request assistance from the other services as required.

As you can see your number one priority is the preservation of life. If you're not sure request ambulance assistance FIRST and liase with the call handler about any backup services required. E.g. if someone throws a petrol bomb at someone who gets badly burned, the first thing you need is an ambulance to save their life, followed by the fire brigade to bring the flames under control and the police to apprehend the bomber. Exxolon (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I remember being told that you generally prioritise the ambulance. However, if I was in (or witnessed) a big car crash, say, I'd just dial 999 and when they asked "What service do you require?" I'd saying "all of them" and let them worry about it. --Tango (talk) 22:55, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

For the petrol bomb situation - in the U.S. you would need the police first because fire and ambulance crews will usually not enter such a dangerous unsecured location without police presence. Rmhermen (talk) 23:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

If U.S. paramedics/EMTs arrive at a scene and someone is lying not moving, maybe in a pool of blood, rather than rush to their aid many departments encourage the initial determination of "cop sign," if there is a cop on scene: 1) If the cop is crouching behind his car on the side opposite the injured, wait before proceeding to the patient; 2)If the cop is fighting with someone or exchanging gunfire with someone, wait before proceeding to the patient; 3) If the cop is lying in a pool of blood next to the patient, wait before proceeding to the patient. 4)If the cop says it is safe to treat the patient, proceed to the patient.Edison (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

In Canada, at least in my thankfully limited 911 experience which involved only medical emergencies, the police didn't come at all, but both a fire truck and ambulance came, since firefighters always have paramedics with them and might arrive faster than the ambulance. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Our boss took us to the fire and rescue call centre (UK) and we were informed that all calls are put through to the police regardless of which service you require. The police then call the other services they think are necessary. I'm not sure if this is common practise throughout call centres but it would account for the fact that not all the services seem to be fully informed until they arrive no the scene.--195.49.180.87 (talk) 10:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Why do firefighters in Canada always have paramedics with them? They don't in the UK. --Tango (talk) 00:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, pretty convenient though isn't it? (It might not be all of Canada...maybe just Ontario. Or maybe even just Toronto.) Adam Bishop (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Two side-comments (for what they're worth):

1. Where people have a feud with or fear of the police, directing all emergency calls through the police might have undesirable effects, e.g. discouraging people from reporting fire or medical emergencies, when residents' attitudes towards ambulances and firefighters might be more benign and less-fearful than towards the police who might arrest some of them for something like drug possession or immigration status;
2. In the United States, USA Today reported a few years ago, there's a strong competition for business between hospital-based ambulances and firehouse-based rescue trucks. The firefighters having become victims of a great though unsung success — the halving of fires through better prevention and suppression — now qualify themselves as paramedics or Emergency Medical Technicians and find themselves competing for a growing but limited medical field. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

July 28

How does Facebook find all these suggested friends?

I hardly ever use Facebook, and I only have a few "friends," all people I knew from a particular past workplace. But somehow, under "Suggestions," Facebook knows the names of all of these real-life friends, relatives and former work colleagues, none of whom has anything to do with the few Facebook friends I have. How in the world does Facebook know that I am connected to all of these people? Some of them I haven't heard from for years! Even my stepfather's ex-wife is a "suggestion!" -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It looks through your e-mail contact list, for one. You can set it so it doesn't do that anymore, though. It also looks through all your friends, and gives you people that at least two of your friends know, even if you don't know them that well, or at all. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

My e-mail contact list only has relatives and a few friends on it. It certainly doesn't have people I went to college with, and none of my existing Facebook friends are even in this country. Yet somehow, those former classmates are among my "suggestions." Really weird. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you joined any Facebook groups, like "Such-and-such College Class of 2000" or whatever? Adam Bishop (talk) 02:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Not that I know of... -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It also uses a lot of "friends of friends". If there's someone out there who is a facebook friend of like 10 of your other facebook friends, but NOT one of your facebook friends, then you likely know them... --Jayron32 03:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Not to belabor the point, but the only Facebook friends I had were people with whom I worked overseas -- none of them would be friends with my relatives, college classmates or American colleagues. There must be something else up here. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

At a guess, I'd say it looked at your email account's contact list, found your stepfather had a facebook account and from his contacts/friends it suggested his ex-wife to you. The same would apply if one of your email contacts knew some people at your college. Astronaut (talk) 04:27, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

College friends is easily explained if you've listed your college in your profile, or joined a related network when you signed up. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Do these people have your email address? Possibly that could explain it. Exploding Boy (talk) 06:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Facebook has never asked me whether I want it to look at my e-mail contacts and if it does that I regard it as an invasion. Judging by the friends that Facebook has suggested to me, I think it harvests names from Yahoo groups. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:21, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Facebook asks for member's e-mail log-in info and then harvests the address books. It does so in a way that looks friendly and fun even though it is a bit invasive for everyone involved and VERY bad security practices. Anyway, the odds are, if you didn't let them do that, somebody else you know did. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought they looked first at your friends' list of friends, and then at the groups you have joined, and the address books if they're uploaded. I've worked through the people I sorta know and now Fb recommends people I haven't heard of. Of course, it could just be a coincidence that your stepfather's ex-wife has been recommended... —Preceding unsigned comment added by TammyMoet (talk • contribs) 15:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmm on mine it occasionally comes up with a random one from my school/program/year, but more often I think it is doing it through email. My best guess would be that your friends have you in their address book and it searched through that and found you, displaying "suggested friend" to both you and them. TastyCakes (talk) 15:40, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

From facebook's own help section -

"Facebook calculates Suggestions based on the networks you are a part of, mutual friends, work and education information, contacts imported using the Friend Finder, and many other factors." Nanonic (talk) 15:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I never told Facebook where I went to school or where I worked. Here's the only thing I can imagine: It has found my e-mail address in the contact list of other Facebook users, then used those people's contacts to find more suggestions for me. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

While that's definitely possible, are you sure that there was no connection to your American life at all? I emphasised the 'at all' part for a reason, as it may not need much. For example, even an invitation from one of your American college friends, particularly if they put you as a college friend may be enough for it go guess other college friends could also be your friends. Similarly if one of your siblings, parents or whatever invited you, it's probably easy for it to guess that you may know your stepfathers's ex-wife if it can guess that relationship from the relationships of those around you. Or even if it's not an invitation but a suggestion from another friend or if one of your overseas friends did somehow establish that relationship via their friends page. Location info may help too as may age if you put that. In your case, since you had few Facebook friends, its 'guesses' rely on less info then is ideal but it can still be easily right depending on the info (and if it wasn't right, you probably wouldn't be asking). Nil Einne (talk) 00:23, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Questions

Please do not put unrelated questions under a single heading. Headings added below --ColinFine (talk) 07:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Copyright in UK

1. How close to a copyrighted name can another name be before it is a breach of copyright laws (In the UK)? Chevymontecarlo (talk) 07:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you looked at copyright? See also trademark, which might be more relevant. --ColinFine (talk) 07:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

To expand on the above, note that you cannot copyright a name[25]; you can infringe a trademark by using someone else's business name or brand name, which is why trademark is relevant. How close your name can be to an existing trademark generally depends on whether the two are in similar lines of business, or are likely to confuse customers, but if you have a specific legal question you should consult a lawyer. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 09:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If you write a computer operating system and call it "Chevymontecarlo Windows" - you'll get sued by Microsoft for sure. If you start a business assembling glass into wood and aluminium frames and call your business "Chevymontecarlo Windows" you'll be just fine. SteveBaker (talk) 13:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Steve is right about his latter point in almost all cases, but I wouldn't bet that you wouldn't be sued over "Chevymontecarlo Windows" as a window maker business. Some companies have successfully claimed that their very-recognized, cultural-institution-level trademark is so unique that it's universal. McDonalds has sued many companies that have inserted "Mc" in front of another noun, claiming that doing so is "McLanguage" and is protected. They successfully used (or abused) trademark law to prevent Quality Inn from creating a chain called McSleep, for example, though that business has little to do with fast food. Tempshill (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The motel you go to when you just want to think you're sleeping> -KoolerStill (talk) 13:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)</small?>

In the case of a dictionary word that is used in its everyday meaning, you are probably alright, though. --Tango (talk) 00:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

And depending on the exact wording and the original trademark, you could even be sued for using your own name! --Zerozal (talk) 16:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

General Motors

2. Does anyone know about the future of General Motors? Chevymontecarlo (talk) 07:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and the reference desks are for factual questions, not speculation. --ColinFine (talk) 07:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry......Chevymontecarlo (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No one can predict the future about anything. GM has a plan to revitalize itself. I'm sure there are endless sources discussing it. As to their actual future, only this much is certain: Their future is ahead of them. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Creosote

3. Why is creosote, the stuff you put on wood to protect it, so dangerous? Chevymontecarlo (talk) 07:24, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Have you looked at creosote? --ColinFine (talk) 07:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking for a picture of the world's greatest gunsmiths.

I'm looking for a picture taken, at some kind of convention, of Uziel Gal, Mikhail Kalashnikov, and Eugene Stoner. It was the only time the three were ever together. I had figured that this pic would be famous, but it's more of a challenge to find then I thought. I'm looking for the picture but I appreciate information as well (date, name, location ect.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by HitmanNumber86 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find all three together, but this site has a photo of Gal and Kalashnikov together, and another photo of Kalashnikov and Stoner together. --Zerozal (talk) 16:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"World's greatest?" What about Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 17:26, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Samuel Colt might beg to differ had he been asked, but like Messrs Smith and Wesson, he wasn't in a position to be photographed with Messrs Gal, Kalashnikov and Stoner. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Was John Browning there?Edison (talk) 01:37, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I heard John T. Thompson was (I don't think this is old yet). By the way, anyone else catch the OP's name's very subtle reference? Shadowjams (talk) 07:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

human resource

hi! i've been given an assignment to write a letter to the head of a human resource department for a job. so ,please could anyone tell me what should be my qualifications and job experience? i've totally NIL idea about job qualifications and educational degrees. puleez help me!!

NOTE: as i'm an indian, the job qualifications must be indian too! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.130.82 (talk) 13:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggest that you do not try to pretend to be qualified or experienced. Better to write from your own experience. Why should this not be your first job on leaving school? Then you can apply for a trainee's post and show how eager you are to make a career from helping people. Make up voluntary work with youth, and/or elderly. Where you can show a tangible interest in people (HR is all about people!). Indicate your preferred route, i.e. into training, selection, whatever. And show why you think that route is best for you. Above all show clearly what benefits you will bring to him - not what you expect to gain.86.219.167.229 (talk)DT —Preceding undated comment added 14:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC).

As 86 said, when students (at least in the US) are taught in the 11th or 12th year of school to write a résumé, the usual advice for the "job experience" section is to try to list "extracurricular activities" that involved some kind of work under the direction of a teacher. Volunteer work counts, like "Helped create a 2 km walking path near the Main Street Marsh, working for 1 month with a team of 10 other volunteer students". Any kind of self-taught skills may do, if you can point to a project you completed, like "Designed, planned, and built a 3-square-meter tree house in my back yard, complete with roof, shingles, door, and a balcony," or "Designed and programmed the game 'Cliff Jumper' over 4 months along with another programmer and artist." Tempshill (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Oh - if you google "resume" there are many, many sample resumes available you can utilize when figuring out what format to use. Tempshill (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Book release date:

I bought a non-fiction book off the shelf at a major bookstore. After I got home, I checked online to see book reviews for it. However, all sources say that this book is to be released on a date in August still a few weeks away. There are no reviews even posted yet. So I'm wondering, am I allowed to have this book? Will I get in trouble for owning it before the release date? Will the bookstore get in trouble? Please help as I am worried sick over it. Torkmann (talk) 16:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

For highly anticipated books like Harry Potter and the like, books are supposed to be released to the public on coordinated "release dates" for the express purpose of generating buzz. Book sellers are under contract to NOT release the book early, less they lose the right to sell the book at all. However, for most average books, they probably go on the shelves as soon as they arrive at the bookstore. While they may have "official" or "anticipated" release dates, most of the time there is little fanfare or notice when they come out; and no reason for the store to "hold them back" so they just put them out. --Jayron32 16:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Check also if it is a "review copy". They generally say so somewhere. They are not supposed to be resold, but they often are. In any case, you wouldn't get in trouble for owning it, though technically a store could get in trouble for selling it, if reported. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

You have done nothing wrong and broken no laws, as far as I know. One possibility is that the publisher reported the for-sale date to everyone as being in August but then shipped the book early and the reviewers were caught by surprise? Tempshill (talk) 17:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If a store sells you something, it's their problem, not yours, unless it's something obviously illegal to sell under any circumstances - although it might be wise to be discrete, at least until it's "officially" for sale. Unless you want to go to someplace anonymously (oh, say, wikipedia, for example) and give away the plot. >:) No, better not. 0:) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Really better not. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Facebook friend requests

I regularly get facebook friend requests even though I do not have a facebook account. What is going on? Torkmann (talk) 16:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

If they are from people who you actually know, it's because your friends have either actually typed your e-mail address into Facebook in order to ask Facebook to send you these e-mails. More likely, they used an option where they type their e-mail account name and password into Facebook, and gave Facebook permission to scour their entire Contacts list; Facebook sends an invite to each person in the Contacts list. Alternatively, these e-mails may be phishing attempts, so, as with all e-mails inviting you to visit a website, you should just type the correct URL into your browser instead of clicking on the link. (See Facebook#Phishing for one particular stunt, though that one was aimed at current users.) Tempshill (talk) 17:01, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Detective stories

Many traditional detective stories end with the detective gathering the possible suspects together, and then dramatically revealing who did the deed and how the mystery has been solved.

Does/did this ever happen in real life? --rossb (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It's known as the Final Dénouement, I believe. I don't know if any real-life cases of this; I'd be surprised if there were any, it's not a very practical approach (as is often revealed in fiction where the criminal tries to escape or kill someone or take a hostage or what have you). --98.217.14.211 (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - I doubt it happens. In the England and Wales, New Zealand, Australia, India, Pakistan and Canada, it could possibly even be construed to be illegal. Once someone is charged with a crime, it becomes Sub judice and the police aren't supposed to discuss it with the public. SteveBaker (talk) 17:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

In the quintessential drawing room mystery, the detective is very rarely a policeman, so that wouldn't come into play. --LarryMac | Talk 17:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The sub judice restrictions apply to all public discussion, so amateur detectives, journalists and little old ladies can't comment. Gwinva (talk) 00:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Also quintessentially, nobody has been charged at that point. They're all invited into the same room, and Poirot or whoever reveals who did it and why, then the cops arrive, arrest the person and charge them. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

You missed out the confession just after the reveal. [26] AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 22:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"I suppose you're wondering why I've called you all together here." Edison (talk) 01:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

"I think that Mrs Soames has something very important to tell us, don't you, Mrs Soames?" —— Shakescene (talk) 09:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I have on occasion given in to the urge to say this in a crowded elevator. In my imagination, at least, it would be wonderful to have the elevator get stuck between the floors instantly after that. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 13:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Amazon.com shirt sizes

What's the difference between "Men's large" and just "large", etc? Is it just because some sellers have unisex sizes and others don't? 24.6.46.177 (talk) 17:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Men's shirts are traditionally not the same as women's shirts. I was reminded of this a few year ago when I picked out a nice shirt at Banana Republic and grabbed a shirt I thought similar but of a different color. The "similar" shirt buttoned the wrong way and had girly pearl buttons. (Well, not exactly pearl, but pearloid, the faux pearl commonly known as "mother of toilet seat".) Current mores are more supportive of women wearing men's clothes than the other way around, and BR took this into account when I exchanged the shirt. PhGustaf (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Also women's shirts may be "fitted", i.e. designed to fit around breasts. I can't link to anything on WP about this, I'm afraid. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 22:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Does not saying men's mean it's a women's shirt? Ex: [27] Most of the men's sizes are sold out but the sizes with no gender are still available. 24.6.46.177 (talk) 22:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

No specified gender means it is unisex, which is basically the same as men's as far as the cut goes, but the sizes may be different. A medium unisex shirt will fit an average person, a medium men's shirt will fit an average man (which is larger). --Tango (talk) 00:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Amazon's sizing chart only mentions men and women sizes... —Akrabbim^talk 13:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

What board game is this?

It was a sort of war game, based on a square grid. The pieces had ranks 1-9 which determined what pieces they could beat, and the ranks were kept hidden from the other player until you attacked or got attacked. There was also a scout which could move more spaces than the other pieces, but it had to be revealed if you moved like that, and a spy which could take down the highest rank. 24.6.46.177 (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like Stratego. --LarryMac | Talk 19:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

July 29

Who pays for giveaways at ball games?

Giveaways at baseball games, if I understand the article right, are a great example of Below the line marketing. I have a question about how his is done in general; obviously, every way is different, but as a general rule, who pays for the middleman products.

By "middleman products" - and I suppose there's a better name - I mean a product that might not relate to the advertiser directly. For instance, say Geico decides to give away stuffed toy lizards. (And it would surprise me if they havne't done this. :-) yes, it relates in terms of the ad image, but they dont' sell stuffed animals, so it's not a direct relation. Would they buy the stuffed animals, they put little shirts with their logo on it? Would they pay the stuffed toy maker to do this and split the clost - after all, the toy manufacturer gets a bit of BTW promotion out of this, too. Most giveaways at ball games are, say, key chains that you can buy with no words on yet, I imagine. But, even there, does purchasing the products go into the marketing budget for the one giving them away?

Thanks.Somebody or his brother (talk) 00:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I imagine the company being advertised via the giva-away is responsible for all costs. In your Geico example, they would source the give-away and arrange for the freebie to be printed with their company message... the toy company would not part fund the escapade ... the baseball owners would, of course, change Geico for the privilege, and may in addition offer logistical support, having been there & done that. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know that the ball club would charge Geico anything, because the whole point of allowing the giveaway is to bring people into the ballpark, so it's totally to the club's benefit. That's something Bill Veeck discovered 50-60 years ago, and which other clubs slowly caught on to: Get someone else to give away something, they get free advertising, more people come to the park - everybody wins! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 01:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You may be right. IN the case of something like this - ING sponsoring the giveaway of 10000 baseballs, I suspect the club may well have organised the whole thing and then sought a sponsor ... whether all the costs are covered by the sponsor or not must remain a moot point. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I notice from the writeup that the baseballs were to be given away after the game ended. Good idea. Except I wonder how they decide who gets them? First 10,000 to leave? Could cause a stampede. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 10:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that there are sometimes give-aways even at parks that are permanently sold-out, like Fenway. There's no point attracting more people to Fenway Park without putting in more chairs. APL (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure there are. It's even possible the clubs do charge something for it, being the money-grubbers they are. But they have to be careful. Speaking of which, giving away baseballs, or anything else that can be thrown, has long been considered a very risky kind of promotion. That's why they are more apt to give away Beanie Babies than hard objects. There was a baseball giveaway in Milwaukee a few years back that resulted in several thousand of them being thrown on the field when an ump made a controversial call. Bad idea. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

In your example, Geico likely wouldn't do anything more than buy the stuffed geckos. There are companies that cater to this sort of thing. They have a wide selection of different little promotional items, e.g. key chains, stuffed animals, pens, notepads, etc. Each item has some place on it to print a logo. Again, in your example, the front of the gecko's shirt. So, they order 5000 of them and have them sent to the ball park. For a company as large as Geico, they can probably go to the promotions company and say, "You guys just have bears and raccoons but we want a gecko. Can you get geckos?" At which point the promotions company rings up their manufacturer in China, Hong Kong, or wherever and asks them to have 5000 geckos made including form fitting t-shirts. Geico may have someone at the park to give people rate quotes but the geckos are generally passed out by park employees. Dismas|^(talk) 09:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Neat; I hadn't thought about there being actual promotions companies that make all those little products, but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks, all.Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Secular Humanism and World Government

If secular humanists don't want to establish world government, then how can you explain this statement in World Community, Twelfth, Humanist Manifesto II: "Thus we look to the development of a system of world law and a world order based upon transnational federal government.".

You should look carefully to see what secular humanists support.

There is also this article called Humanism that you should look at.

Bowei Huang (talk) 05:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I can explain it: Some people who self-identify as secular humanists want, apparently, to abolish nations and have a world government. That doesn't mean that secular humanists in general want to establish world government. I've seen that organization's logo around, but it doesn't mean they somehow represent all secular humanists.

In a similar vein, some Muslims want a world government running sharia law, and some Christians want to convert everyone in the world to their religion; but it doesn't mean you can tar all these people with the same brush. I'd add — though this is OR and I have no source to cite — that if you polled all the secular humanists on this political question, the answers would probably be more diverse than the results you'd get if you polled the Muslims and the Christians on their respective questions I just cited. Tempshill (talk) 06:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me add something, as I just skimmed the creation wiki article that Bowie Huang linked to. The lie that's underlying the allegations in that article is the idea that the secular humanists are part of one big movement, like the Catholic Church, in which a large number of people have an (ostensibly) unified set of beliefs, and they follow marching orders given by their leaders. (Which allows them to exert undue influence over the United Nations, etc.) In my experience, it's the opposite. These people are not organized, despite the desires, apparently, of the American Humanist Association, the group that wrote those manifestos — their 2008 annual report notes their membership hit an all-time high of 10,000 last year. This is not a lot of people. So, if all 10,000 members were to endorse that document you cited, you could say there are at least 10,000 secular humanists who want a world government. But I don't think that world government is even in the top 10 priorities of most people who self-identify as "secular humanist". Tempshill (talk) 07:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We should oppose any attempt at a world government, because the current approach works so very well. Now, is there a real question in there someplace, or did someone mistake this page for Editorials R Us? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 07:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Causes on Facebook

Have any causes on Facebook ever been known to actually accomplish anything besides some fund raising? I'm thinking of things external to FB, i.e. not the "Tell FB that you don't like..." causes. Most of the time, I don't see the point in joining them except for maybe a warm fuzzy in your heart over clicking a few links to say you support left-handed firefighters or whatever else the cause supports. Dismas|^(talk) 09:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Bra Wars. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to say exactly what causes someone to change their mind, but there are a number of campaigns that have organised using Facebook and achieved results. Fighting changes in Canadian copyright law[28]. Bringing the Wispa chocolate bar into production was partly due to a Facebook campaign[29]. Even less importantly on a global scale, but presumably due to an active Facebook-using student body, changing the branding at Vermont College[30]. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I've read at least one claim that the Wispa/Facebook thing was deliberate viral marketing. I can't remember the source though. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's a wispa/viral claim, the first of many given by this google search. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I feel I'm being got at. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Looking for reference: Two friends lost, dying in national park; one killed the other out of mercy, later rescued, charged with murder

I saw a true story on TV years ago but cannot find a reference to it. The story goes something like this:

Two college friends took a road trip after graduation. They stayed in a national park(?) overnight but were unprepared for the desert(?) heat. The next day, they were dehydrated and disoriented, and couldn't find their way back to their vehicle. One of them was in agony and seemed to be dying. The other friend thought they were both going to die and killed the first one, to spare his friend of the pain. The second friend was later rescued and charged with murder. It turned out that the two victims were only several hundred feet from their vehicle the whole time.

Do you have a reference to this story? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.98.141 (talk) 11:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

We do: Raffi Kodikian. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow! That was quick. Thanks. --98.114.98.141 (talk) 12:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)