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September 20

I hope this question is in the correct place?

I apologise in advance if this is the wrong place.

I'm thinking of writing an article about a book. The problem is, the publisher, Bonnier Books, does have a small arm of the business that deals with self publishing.

The book is 'Kill the Black One First: A memoir of hope and justice' by Michael Fuller ISBN 978-1-78870-286-7. How can I tell if the book is self published? Obviously, if it was self published then I won't write the article. Knitsey (talk) 16:00, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

The self-publishing platform Type & Tell closed down in 2017, so this doesn't seem to be a problem. Also the Waterstones page quotes a newspaper review, which is unlikely for something self-published. And I can't find evidence of this, but his article says the book was published on the Blink imprint, and hence not on Type & Tell (which was sort of kept in isolation by being assigned to Bonnier Books Ventures, a separate company from Bonnier Books UK which has the Blink imprint, and separate from the parent Bonnier Books).  Card Zero  (talk) 18:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I just looked in the flyleaf and it mentions Blink there. I should have double checked, sorry about that. I can't tell from this [1] whether that means it's part of the self publish arm? Thank you so much for taking the time to answer @Card Zero:. Knitsey (talk) 18:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

I looked at all the imprints listed there, and none of them say anything suggesting "self publishing", although this one says "commercial" which sounds like the opposite. (Some of the others don't say "commercial". I don't know what that means.) I also searched the site for the author and the title, and they don't admit that the book ever existed, which is an aggravating disregard for the value of information. But where did you hear that they do self publishing, and was it under the name "Type & Tell"? That is not this, so don't worry, unless you've heard they still do it.  Card Zero  (talk) 18:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh heck, I'm not sure. I googled something like 'is Bonnier Books self publishing' and I think I got the explanation that a small part of the publisher does do self publishing, but mostly it's a regular publisher.

I'm wondering if Blink is something to do with Waterstones? I think it was initially released as exclusive to them?

I think I will search around for some book reviews and see where I get to. I know The Times reviewed it, I don't have a subscription but I can access it through the library.

Thanks so much for your help. Self publishing wasn't really something I had come across before I started editing Wikipedia! Knitsey (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Worth keeping in mind is that being self-published is an indicator that a book is probably not notable, but that self-published status is not definitive. Fifty Shades of Grey is not my preferred personal style, but it was originally self published and has since gone on to be a genuine best seller with sequel novels and a film series. The Martian was also a self-published novel that was adapted into an acclaimed film starring Matt Damon that was more my style. The thing that matters most is whether the book complies with WP:NBOOK, which usually requires multiple reviews by competent book reviewers published in reliable, independent sources. Cullen328 (talk) 07:37, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi Cullen328, I didn't know that. I just assumed if it was self published it wouldn't be notable. Fifty Shades didn't really feature on my radar, not my cup of tea, but that's a good example.

I will have a good look around to see if it complies with WP:NBOOK before I start writing anything. Thank you for the info. Knitsey (talk) 12:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The thing that matters is reliable secondary source coverage. While it's true that a lot of the time a book being self-published means few are going to pay attention to it for a variety of reasons, this isn't guaranteed. I think Cullen328's examples do illustrate that even in the ebook era, it still tends to be advantageous to have a publisher hence why those examples and others like The Rabbit Who Wants to Fall Asleep may have became notable while self-published but were able to get a conventional publisher once they received enough attention. Still for a variety of reasons including simply author's preference, there's nothing stopping a book remaining self-published even after it receives a lot of attention. Articles we have on books which seem to remain self-published include Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About, Stolen Valor and Canada's Stonehenge. To some extent Dangerous (book) although it was originally not going to be self-published. Nil Einne (talk) 08:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This has been an eye opener. I think that because self-published sources are generally a no-no for referencing, I had it stuck in my head that self-published books wouldn't be suitable for articles. Which obviously isn't the case if the book in question has enough significant coverage.

I need to get this week over with then I will start looking for references to see if it might be suitable for an article. Thank you everyone for the help. Knitsey (talk) 09:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

September 25

German parody

I came across a recording here of Max Ehrlich delivering a parody of Alexander Moissi, who I came across during one of my earliest collaborations on WP, Busoni's Turandot Suite: but what is he saying? The info says "Textvorlagen: Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (1749-1832), Friedrich Schiller (1759-1805)", with a link to DNB which also mentions Albert Bassermann and Max Pallenberg, but these might be red herrings. Any ideas? MinorProphet (talk) 02:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

After an introduction he starts with a famous monologue from Schiller's Wilhelm Tell (act 4, scene 3). As far as I can tell the text is original, but the delivery is very exaggerated. I don't have time right now to listen to the rest, maybe tonight. --Wrongfilter (talk) 13:27, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

The declamation of the monologue ends at 1:15. What follows is a dialogue between Alexander Moissi and Guido Tielscher, who appear very clueless about Schiller's play. For instance, they understand the "Hohle Gasse" (a sunken lane) to be an underground railway, and they respond to Küssnacht, which could be literally translated as "kiss night", by "I'd rather kiss by day". Goethe appears in part 2 (Der König in Thule), and that is indeed a parody of Bassermann and Pallenberg. --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

@Wrongfilter: Thanks very much indeed for your knowledgeable insights. Just looking at de:Guido Thielscher's photo makes me laugh, he was obviously possessed of a wicked sense of humour. Thanks also for the link to part 2. Goethe used his "König in Thule" poem in Faust, Part 1. It appears that both Bassermann[2] and Pallenberg[3] appeared as Mephisto in productions of Faust by Max Reinhardt. I recognised Pallenberg's name from Reinhardt's massive 1911 pantomine-spectacle The Miracle (play) (article badly needs updating), but not in the film of the play The Miracle (1912 film) (another of my early collaborations), the world's first full-colour feature film. MinorProphet (talk) 12:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

September 28

Examples of violent movie scenes that weren't actually that violent

Two examples that spring to mind are the shower scene in Psycho and the chainsaw scene (which also happens in a shower) in Scarface. If you rewatch them, you don't actually see metal entering flesh, but it's edited in such a clever manner that you think that you saw more graphic gore and mutilation on-screen than you did. I've seen discussions online where people swear that they saw something they didn't and that these movies must have been censored for violence after the fact. Amazing filmmaking, I must say. But can anyone tell me some other examples? Iloveparrots (talk) 00:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Prior to the mid or late 1960s, movies and TV shows with violent scenes seldom had any apparent penetration or any blood. Some guy would fire a gun and the other guy would immediately drop dead, with no blood. Most any western would do for that example. I'm thinking of the scene in "Fort Apache", where the Indians surround Henry Fonda's character and kill him, but with no closeup or slo-mo or anything like that. More recently, I'm thinking of "West Side Story", where the gang members were stabbing each other with switchblades, again with the victims falling over dead immediately after one knife stab but little or no blood. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, consider how fistfights were and are filmed, with guys seemingly slugging each other but filmed from an angle that allows the actors to "swing and miss" but to look like they could be making contact. Though there were occasional slipups. In one "Superman" episode, Frank Richards took a swing at Phyllis Coates, who was standing too close to him and he actually knocked her out. Oops! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

This is difficult in two ways: what blood and gore actually features in any given movie? (Censorship boards may help with that.) What do people generally misremember happening in it? That one is hard to source. I found 13 horrific moments of implied violence in movies, which is the same sort of idea, although in some cases it's plainly implicit, and in many others (Reservoir Dogs!) the movie has lots of blood in it elsewhere.  Card Zero  (talk) 03:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

There was also 1967's "Bonnie and Clyde", which I haven't seen for a long time, but as I recall it was an early use of slo-mo along with little explosions to depict them being riddled with bullets. In contrast, the old movie "The Big Sleep", as I recall, had the villain run out the door yelling in vain to his men not to shoot. You didn't see any bullets hit him, but they penetrated the door he had closed behind him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

See all 'A-Team Firing' on TVTropes which talks about the trope of everyone shooting but no-one actually dying. 'Bloodless Carnage' where no entrance or exit wounds or even blood is shown. And also 'Non-Lethal Warfare' Nanonic (talk) 12:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Tarantino explained that violence is more violent if you don't show it. That is why he pans away or shuts a door when he wants something to be extremely unsettling. He was praised by critics by panning away in Reservoir Dogs and shutting the door in Pulp Fiction, but he wanted to explain that it was a trick that was around for decades before he copied it in his films. When it comes down to it, your imagination is far more revolting than anything that can be put on film. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 12:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)