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November 2

ADHD meds

• This question has been removed as it may be a request for medical advice. Wikipedia does not give medical advice because there is no guarantee that our advice would be accurate or relate to you and your symptoms. We simply cannot be an alternative to visiting the appropriate health professional, so we implore you to try them instead. If this is not a request for medical advice, please explain what you meant to ask, either here or at the talk page discussion (if a link was provided).

Catskin coats

What is the euphemistic term used to describe a fur coat made from the pelts of domestic cats (i.e. to make the origin of the fur non-obvious to the consumer)? Someone told me once, but I've forgotten. I was thinking for a moment that it was sable, but that's not it. --Kurt Shaped Box (talk) 01:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Domestic cat is not listed on list of types of fur. Are you sure this practice is commonplace? I would think fur-farms prefer "high quality" fur animals, e.g. with more fur per square inch, and so on. This website, whose authority I won't vouch for, says cat fur is sold as "wild cat, katzenfelle, rabbit, goyangi, mountain cat or is even sold as 'fake fur.'" Nimur (talk) 01:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This sounds to me very much like an urban legend, (Someone told you a secret way to identify something unpleasant?) but there's no mention on snopes.

In any case, trading in cat pelts is more or less illegal in the USA and EU. So, if there's a 'standard' euphemism you won't see it in stores.

(Personally, If I were trading in car pelts, I'd call it "African Wildcat". Very exotic sounding, but also more or less true. )APL (talk) 14:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

No way you could legally sell cat fur as "fake fur" People with cat allergies who bought a fake fur coat would sue the pants off you when they started having allergic reactions. Googlemeister (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know whether they're still sold anywhere, I doubt it, but "catskin comforters" were common 200 years ago in Europe and America.  – OhioStandard (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

ADHD meds are a scam

The removed question above a couple back has ADHD medication as its topic. It roused feelings in me and I answered it, as I have experience with ADHD medication. The Google search "ADHD meds are a sham" yields 60,000 results, so it must be a common thought. To further make this question not a request for medical advice, I want to see what the thoughts about the American (and international) pharmaceutical industry in general that are out there and to what extent they teach the public that what they have can be cured with a pill. Thanks Wikipedians! schyler (talk) 02:11, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what you're asking, but don't place too much weight on how many results Google returns as being an indicator of truth - for example i have been abducted by a ufo returns me 384,000 results, while i am jesus returns me 118,000,000. FWIW Pharmaceutical_industry#Controversy_about_drug_development_and_testing discusses controversies in the pharmaceutical industry. --jjron (talk) 02:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I would rephrase your suggestion to "teach the public that what they are can be cured with a pill". My view is that we have a huge spectrum of behaviours and a huge spectrum of "treatments". Some of these behaviours may have been fine in larger, better structured, better run families in the past, but don't work in the modern world. Some of the treatments work well for the patients. Others work well for the drug companies. As a teacher, one of the worst aspects of the public diagnosis of ADHD is when a badly behaved kid at school responds to criticism with "I can't help it. I've got ADHD". HiLo48 (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

(As a former student with ADD, my experience is that most professionals in the field would stress that having ADD should never be used as an "excuse" to try to get away with any kind of "bad behavior" – I think your students may be trying to "pull one over" on you about that, HiLo48, as of course kids in general will. ;) You would be quite right to have no tolerance for that sort of thing). WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello Schyler. It's understandable that you're frustrated with "over-diagnosis" of ADHD as a syndrome or a disorder. But the reference desk isn't the place for you to declare your opinions - it's just not the right forum. Your viewpoints are shared by many - including experts in the fields of education, psychology, and medicine: even a cursory study of published research on ADHD indicates that many experts believe that ADHD is over-diagnosed, over-treated, and over-medicated. Many professionals oppose ever medicating or even treating ADHD; others just want more discretion to be used before providing medication or treatment. In fact, there is so much debate about what ADHD is, and whether it should be treated, that we have an entire article listing some of the numerous controversies. Our article Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder management discusses issues and concerns about "over-medicating". This section of our article discusses concerns about whether it should even be classified as a "disorder." So the long and short of it is - yes, there is significant debate about ADHD. We can point you and other questioners to some of the many resources on Wikipedia and elsewhere. But we will not participate in diagnosis of ADHD and we definitely will not answer questions about consequences of taking or not taking medications if they are posted on the desk. It has been well established that Wikipedia is not the appropriate medium for anyone to evaluate the positive or negative effects of medications for specific individuals - that constitutes medical advice and we will not do it. If you disagree with this policy, please consider bringing up your concerns at the talk page and consider reading our medical advice policy. Nimur (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I think this search is what you are looking for http://www.google.co.uk/search?aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=adhd+medication+effectiveness . Maybe someone with a background in this could sift through it to find relevant info.Sf5xeplus (talk) 06:31, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Also this http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=adhd%20medication%20over%20prescribed&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=bks:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp - concerning whether or not doctors are giving ADHD drugs too freely - some say yes, others no. I'm not a doctor so I can't qualify which can books or studies be taken as reliable and which not.Sf5xeplus (talk) 11:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I understand the reference desk is a resource for researchers, but it is also a place to post those little thoughts which may have an academic approach. It is not for opinions and answers should always be drawn from a scholarly work or from a respectable source. All this, yes, I do understand. All that being said, thank you wikipedians for your help and linking to relevant articles. schyler (talk) 13:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

In summary, we were able to direct you to the Wikipedia article that using WP:NPOV notes that Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder controversies exist, but regardless of how a question is posed, the Ref. Desk will not debate this or any other medical controversy. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:36, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

There is clearly a lot of controversy about ADHD and its treatment, but I do not think it is reasonable to say that medications for it are a "scam". I'm sorry to hear, OP, that you feel your experience with ADD meds was problematic.

I think this point, from our ADHD article, is pertinent:

"Methods of treatment often involve some combination of behavior modification, life-style changes, counseling, and medication. A 2005 study found that medical management and behavioral treatment is the most effective ADHD management strategy, followed by medication alone, and then behavioral treatment. While medication has been shown to improve behavior when taken over the short term, they have not been shown to alter long term outcomes."

"Coaching", another form of treatment usually more for adults with ADD, can also be very helpful, whether in combination with medication or not. Everyone is different though; if you have been diagnosed with ADD, you should work with doctors and other professionals to arrive at a treatment for it that works best for you. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Spurious Bank Account alerts online.

I suspect I already know the answer to this but here goes anyway. I keep getting e-mails telling me to re-register my account details as there "has been an attack on your account and it has been suspended", or some such attempt to get me to enter my account details and passwords. In fact, I don't actually open them anymore, simply reporting them unopened as Spam. But I can't help wondering even now after all the warnings about these scams, do nutters and fools still respond to them and enter their details as requested? But I guess the reason I know the answer already is because the scammers still keep up the pressure and so it would seem they must occasionally score? Or are they by now merely being mischievous? 92.30.114.79 (talk) 11:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

My guess is that it still pays. The cost of sending spam to millions of people is very low to them (they use other people's PCs via botnets), so if one person in a million is that stupid then it would still probably be worth their while. Experience tells me that a lot more than one person in a million is that stupid! -- Q Chris (talk) 12:00, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article about Phishing which notes that Microsoft estimated as recently as 2008 that the annual loss to this scam in the US is US$60 million. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

The numbers in Phishing#Damage caused by phishing are a few years old and vary wildly, but damages were put at at least millions of US$ or GB£ in 2007. This article from The Register claims "0.47 per cent [One in 200] of a bank’s customers fall victim to phishing attacks each year" and claims losses of $2.4m-$9.4m (US, presumably) per million customers per year. The Register has more articles on phishing here. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Royal Poinciana

To whom it may concern: I was reading a article about the Royal Poinciana places where they can grow. I live in Poinciana,Florida:Can I grow The Royal poinciana in my yard? I have about ten Royal Poinciana(Flamboyant)growing in pot. What is the chance they can grow? Can somebody help me. Please.

Thank You, Augie Sanchez —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.1.88 (talk) 17:35, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

You might be able to. According to this article, some references say the Royal Poinciana is hardy in zone 9b, others say it is only hardy in 10 or higher. This map of Florida hardiness zones puts Poinciana in 9b, but just barely. My guess is that if you have a sunny area that is also protected from winter winds, you might have success, but be sure to read the full discussion in the first linked article. --LarryMac | Talk 10:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

i can see clearly now

what are the lyrics in "I can see clearly now" about? 70.241.22.82 (talk) 18:41, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

They are a clear expression of unabashed optimism following the end of a period of depression or unhappiness, primarily expressed with metaphors about the weather. I'm not sure there's a whole lot more to them than that. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:27, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

To expand on that, there may be some specific event in the life of the songwriter which inspired the song (in this case, Johnny Nash), or there may not have been, it could just be a general "feel good" song. The Wikipedia article on the song, I Can See Clearly Now, implies that part of the source of popularity for the song comes from the fact that it stood out, both musically and in subject matter, against other hits of the time. --Jayron32 21:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! :) 70.241.22.82 (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

"WCA"?

I live in the US. Over the past couple of weeks, we have been getting phone calls from some organization which claims to be "WCA", offering a variety of different solutions to several different problems, from needing wheelchairs, to legal services, etc. They start off with a taped message by someone who gives their first name (always different), telling us to press 3 to opt out, or press 1 to speak to a person. Twice now, I've pressed 1 and asked to be put on the do not call list, but they continue to call. I have no idea what WCA is, but it certainly seems like a scam. Nothing really informative shows up on a Google search, that I have been able to find. Does anybody have any clues as to who they are, how their scam works, and how to get them to stop calling, since they are obviously violating the law by continuing to call after I asked them to put us on the do not call list. Corvus cornix_talk 20:46, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This is the complaint form for the do-not-call list, but I don't know if the complaints are ever acted upon. This enjoyable read is from a guy from Washington DC who used small claims court to sue the caller for US$500; he won the suit and collected; because there's a federal law prohibiting recorded phone spam (with a few unfortunate exceptions for nonprofits; but it doesn't sound like your annoying caller qualifies, to me). Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I Googled for a while, and "WCA" does show up as a telemarketing company, mainly on sites where people share information about nuisance calls, here, for example. They sometimes call themselves "WCA Offer Clearing House", but seem to have various incarnations, and to use a variety of phone numbers. The taped message and the "press to opt out" elements seem to be common to many people's experience, and there are indeed a number of complaints that pressing to opt out just triggered more calls, presumably because (like internet spam) it proves that the number is a "live" one. I found this online complaint form for the FCC as well as the do-not-call one that Comet Tuttle links to - it would probably do no harm to complain to both. Karenjc 14:57, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You may find these links helpful. I especially like the second one, where you get to ask what kind of toothpaste the caller prefers. ;-) Cheers,  – OhioStandard (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Nokia smartphone question

Is there a Nokia smartphone that is essentially similar to the Nokia C6-00 but without the touchscreen? I distinctively remember seeing one. JIP | Talk 20:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Two French defence businesses...same or different?

Does anybody know if the French military/defence companies Directions Techniques Des Constructions Naval and Direction des Constructions Navales (now DCNS) are different companies, the same company, or the same company at different times? -- saberwyn 21:03, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

According to this site, "Direction Technique des Constructions Navales" changed its name to DCN. Warofdreams talk 01:44, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Public Domain Whale Sounds?

Does anyone know where I could download public domain or otherwise free-to-use whale sounds? CGPGrey (talk) 21:55, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikimedia Commons have some free-to-use whale song here. Antiquary (talk) 22:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

See FindSounds. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. --CGPGrey (talk) 12:35, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

November 3

Help me find travel sites for large groups of passengers (10 or more), please.

Orbitz, Booking Buddy, etc., only lets me choose up to 6 passengers (sometimes 8.) Our campus ministry may be taking a total of 10 passengers to the Mountain T.O.P. ministry camp in Tennessee, and I'm researching options for airline tickets with this group, should we ever decide to fly. (It's for Spring Break next year.)

So what sites allow me to search fares for 10 or more passengers? Also, if there are special, obscure deals for groups this large, where might I find them, please?

Thanks in advance,

--Let Us Update Wikipedia: Dusty Articles 04:18, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You may be able to contact airlines directly and get better results (this is true even for smaller groups). Airline ticketing agents have some leeway in these regards, so if you say "I am finding that Orbitz is quoting me a price of $200 per passenger for two groups of 5 passengers, but I want to book a group of ten altogether. I'll use Orbitz if they give me the best price, but if you can give me a better price over the phone now, it would be easier to book all ten at once with you, and I'd like to do that." You'd be surprised how good of a result you can get just by asking; there's no guarantee this method will work, but if it doesn't you are no worse off than before, but if it works you'll either save some money, or have an easier booking all ten at once. --Jayron32 04:24, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

It sounds obvious to me: book two groups of 5. Astronaut (talk) 07:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You can call Orbitz on the phone and the agents there may have more flexibility than is given via their web interface. Or, they may not; I recently had trouble booking a trip on Expedia, and when calling their agent on the phone, it turned out the agent just used the web site the same way I did with no additional powers available. Personally I'd just look up a local travel agent, who are people who do this for a living. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:54, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

• Please disregard the advice given by Astronaut. What you need to do is call airlines directly, or go through an actual travel agent, and ask for group bookings. You can always get to group bookings, for most airlines these will be bookings of 10 or more pax. Group rates will always be lower than individual; there will almost never be a break on 2 groups of 5pax. Please note also that Orbitz et al are merely front-end interfaces for SABRE, which is why agents at Expedia and Orbitz won't have much luck; they're not using SABRE directly, just the front end same as you. In general terms, your best bet will be to find the airlines which fly out of your local airport to wherever it is in TN you're heading, call them, and ask for group rates. (I used to work in international event planning and incentive travel, and had to deal with the vagaries of air travel on a regular basis.) → ROUX ₪ 17:07, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

If you want to avoid the hassle, all the better travel agencies will be able to to help out. If I need anything but a simple booking, I send an email to my online travel agent (who used to be a walk-in agent, and still operates real offices), and they sort it out. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:16, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but travel agencies add their own costs on top of ticket pricing. → ROUX ₪ 17:17, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. You trade money for less hassle (if you have a good agent, otherwise you might pay more and have the hassle ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

That hasn't been my experience. I always book my overseas travel through a walk in agent and I've never paid more then the price I've found for myself on the internet. I find the flight and the price on the internet, I go to my agent and they book it for me. I just like having someone who knows what they are doing book it for me. I figure the agent gets some sort of discount on the price you and I would see online which is how they make their profit. Vespine (talk) 00:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

They do often make a commission back on a portion of the ticketing fee, yes. → ROUX ₪ 00:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

SAT essay

i had a query about the essay in SAT. do we have to write in one tone, like in support of the topic, or against it, or can we do both? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.197.252.156 (talk) 14:12, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

That would depend on what the specific essay assignment says. As far as I know, normally you write about your opinion on the subject or topic, which would be in support, against, or on the fence, that last one being less focused on any one point of view, but instead looks at both sides of it. 70.241.22.82 (talk) 16:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

You could ask one of your classmates or your teacher/tutor. They might be able to help. Chevymontecarlo 21:14, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

If it's specifically a Persuasive writing piece you would choose for or against (doesn't have to be your opinion, just what you can argue best), and don't sit on the fence. --jjron (talk) 08:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

As always - read, understand and answer the question set.Froggie34 (talk) 09:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Also, the way these things are scored, write neatly and as much as you can. 128.111.130.159 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

November 4

chainmail/mail

how big across would the links in chainmail typically be? Jds500 (talk) 02:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Examples shown at Mail (armour) show a wide range of sizes. There does not appear to have been much consistancy. --Jayron32 03:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Obviously there were styles - fashions - in chain mail. There always is. Some would be ornamental. But the fighting mail would have to withstand penetration by a slim point. A dagger, say.Froggie34 (talk) 09:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If I had to guess, I would say that the finer the mail, the more expensive it would be since it would take a lot more work to make, so the mail worn by someone very wealthy, say would be much finer then mail worn by a middling sort. Googlemeister (talk) 13:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ummm, so what would the largesst size be and what would the smallest size of link be? Jds500 (talk) 16:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

This chap[1] who makes his own, uses a steel rod to form the rings, which is 5/8 inch in diameter. He says that he has used 1/4 inch too. This one[2] uses 6mm (which is 1/4 inch give or take). Couldn't find anything that gave measurements of surviving medieval mail. The people to ask would be the Royal Armouries[3] who say that they "offer an enquiry service to the public". Alansplodge (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ummm, I actually meant the diameter across the ring formed... Jds500 (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

What is the "people-pleasing syndrome" called in professional terminology?

I think that the "people-pleasing syndrome" is interesting enough to merit it's own Wikipedia article. (Yes, I have seen the "Nice guy" article, but that is not quite the same as "people-pleasing".)
I am afraid that no one of my sources will qualify as a reliable source:

1. People-Pleasing Personality (A definition from www.livestrong.com).
2. people pleaser (Definition from www.urbandictionary.com).
3. How to Break Free from the Self-Sabotaging 'People-Pleasing' Habits in Your Relationships by Rachel G. Baldino, for www.SixWise.com
4. The Disease to Please: Curing the People-Pleasing Syndrome a book by Harriet Braiker.

Maybe the above mentioned book will suffice, but I do not have it available.
So now I wonder:

1. Do you know of any reliable source available online?
2. What is the people-pleasing syndrome called in professional terminology? (It would help me find reliable sources).
   • ("People-pleasing syndrome" is not quite the same as "Dependent personality disorder". And "Codependency" seems to refer more to a superior person in the relationship while "People-pleasing" to an inferior one).

--User:Seren-dipper (talk) 04:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Sycophancy. As you imply, it would be a bad thing if a brace of fad pop-pulp self-help books could start filling Wikipedia with articles about neologisms. 92.29.115.158 (talk) 10:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Consider

• PPDS: People pleasing delusional syndrome (may be found on a blacklisted link)
• 5 Steps to Banishing People Pleasing Syndrome (CD) by Lynn Moore
• From Parent-Pleasing to People-Pleasing by Leon F. Seltzer, Ph.D.

and be sure to look at WP:FIRST. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

No, no, no. Please do not create Wikipedia articles that are confections of fad self-help books and personal-research. 92.29.115.158 (talk) 11:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

This question reads like advertising - an infomercial. 92.29.115.158 (talk) 11:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. It'd be nominated for deletion, and I would vote "delete". Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

User 92.29.115.158 refers to Sycophancy whose article lists 3 meanings and 16 alternative phrases but 'people-pleaser is not among them. It is a strength of Wikipedia, not a "bad thing", that it can obtain articles on notable neologisms faster than any printed encyclopedia. The OP is clear about the need for WP:RS and already in this section some more published sources have been found. The OP has a good record of contributions to Wikipedia including creating an article "Sucker-trap" (redirected[4] to Confidence trick) and should not be preemptively discouraged from trying to create a new article by a prejudice before anyone has seen it to delete the article. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 16:37, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible to see the "Sucker trap" article even though it appears to have been deleted? 92.24.190.150 (talk) 19:36, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Only administrators can view the content of deleted pages see Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:36, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Arab - Jewish conflict

A friend was implying that the dispute between Arabs and Jews is often referenced back to Esau and Jacob. As if to suggest that the children of one of these two became the Arab race and thus the historical dispute began. I've tried to look into this but can only find fairly sketchy view points on this. Is there a respected line of argument that traces the disputes back to this age? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.93.48 (talk) 08:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The History of the Jews in the Arabian Peninsula (see article) reaches back to Biblical times but I have not found a notable reference to Esau or Jacob. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I had heard that it allegedly went back as far as the two sons of Abraham, though I have also heard that such is unreliable and was made up centuries later. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:07, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Well the Jews (as the "Children of Israel") trace their roots back through the twelve tribes of Israel (also known as Jacob). The Arab ancestry is probably less clear, but some at least claim to be descendants of Abraham through Ishmael (Jacob's half-uncle). Esau's descendants were the "Edomites" and some nations claim to be their descendants. I don't know how respected or valid these claims are. perhaps someone can give an authoritative answer. Dbfirs 09:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The Biblical story of Ishmael is the origin of this. (See Genesis 16 and 17) Ishmael was the child of Abraham and a concubine, who was taken to give Abraham a son because his wife Sarah had not conceived. Being the first-born son of Abraham would have given him inheritance rights. However, Sarah managed to conceive well into old age and produced Isaac, who was the son of man and wife and whose rights to the inheritance trumped Ishmael's. The story is that God told Ishmael he, too, would be the progenitor of a great nation, i.e. the Arabs, while Isaac became the progenitor of the Jews. To me, the whole Arab/Jew story makes sense if you see it as a family disagreement, but that's my opinion. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:50, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I still haven't found a "respected line of argument" that traces Arab ancestry back to either Ishmael or Esau, but the theory does seem to be widespread. The descendants of Jacob seem to have been in dispute with their neighbours for many thousands of years (though perhaps that can be said of most human cultures). This is a quote from one website: "Where are the descendants of Esau today? Most are still in the Middle East. The modern nation of Yemen, for instance, takes its name from Teman, the grandson of Esau, and is still called by that name in Hebrew today. Many of the remnants of the Amalekites are found among the Palestinian population, as well as in parts of Libya. Yet another Edomite colony is centered in the Basra region of Iraq, which takes its name from ancient Bozzrah, the capital of Edom.". Does anyone know of any research that verifies these ancestry claims? Dbfirs 23:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I do not think anyone is going to do "respectable research" on tracing back to a Biblical story the modern conflict between Israelis and the "Arabs" (ie., the Palestinians, and countries neighboring Israel/"Palestine", and those cultures inclined to take the Palestinian or Lebanese or etc. side in that conflict).

Our Arab-Israeli conflict article has:

"The conflict, which started as a political and nationalist conflict over competing territorial ambitions following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, has shifted over the years from the large scale regional Arab–Israeli conflict to a more local Israeli–Palestinian conflict, though the Arab world and Israel generally remain at odds with each other over specific territory."

The modern conflict is rooted in a territorial dispute; there is no (useful) explanation of that given by any of the purportedly pertinent Bible stories. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that the current conflict is territorial, but I interpreted the question to be primarily about claims of ancestry. Jewish ancestry is well-documented (though I suspect that there are big chunks missing in the records). I was wondering whether similar academic research had been done to verify the claims that certain peoples are descended from Ishmael and Esau, or are the claims just widely-repeated speculation? Dbfirs 00:53, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh. Okay, the Arab people article suggests some possible links with the Edomites. The Semitic article explains that Jews and Arabs can both "trace their lineage" back to Shem, the son of Noah:

"In Genesis 10:21-31, Shem is described as the father of Aram, Asshur, and Arpachshad: the Biblical ancestors of the Arabs, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Sabaeans, and Hebrews, etc."

Also, the Antisemitism in the Arab world has more on the "Arab - Jewish conflict" – pointing out again the historically very recent development of that conflict. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The current dispute between Arabs and Jews is primarily about the control of land and dates back no further than the origins of Zionism. Prior to Zionism, Arabic-speaking Muslims and Arabic-speaking Jews lived more or less amicably side-by-side in Palestine and other parts of the Middle East. It is true that some Arabs claim Ishmael as their ancestor, while Jews traditionally claim his half-brother Jacob as their ancestor. However, it is completely impossible to prove either group's actual descent from these mythical figures. There is absolutely no documentary evidence of the historical existence of Jacob or Ishmael. References to them in the Hebrew scriptures were first written down a thousand years or more after they are supposed to have lived. No serious scholar would claim an oral tradition as a reliable historical source, especially after the passage of so many centuries. Marco polo (talk) 01:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

To WikiDao, Dbfirs and MarcoPolo: Your evaluations are fallacious extrapolations of media hyperbole. Atrocities perpetrated by Muslims against Jews extend too far back for the issue to be related to territorial claims. The 1920 Palestine riots and Jaffa riots, for example, happened in 1920 and 1921, respectively, -- well before Israel became a state. Islam looked down upon Judaism ever since Mohammed was rejected by Judaism as a religious leader. And while most argue that Arabs/Muslim opposition is to Israel expanding its borders in 1967, this line of reasoning is not supported by things like the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, which occurred prior to Israel capturing the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. Syria and Egypt formed the United Arab Republic in 1958 (again, prior to Israel taking control of the WB, GS and GH), with a belligerent agenda towards Israel (in concert with the closing of the Straits of Tiran in May of 1967) and the current alleged occupying of territory is a cover -- hence the PLO, Fatah, Hamas and Iranian directives to destroy Israel and wipe it from existence, rather than settle together peaceably. Because of historical realities, Israel likely doesn't, nor will it likely ever) consider its Arab/Muslim neighbors as parties with which to debate, deliberate and diplomate. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:06, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sure there is bound to be further diplomating of varying degrees of seriousness and productivity as time goes on. Because the status quo in the region simply cannot endure forever (for a number of reasons, many of which are tightly intertwined with Israel's (and Israelis') material and existential well-being).

And I think the Antisemitism in the Arab world article, already quoted from above, is worth considering. It also says:

"Arab antisemitism is believed to have expanded since the 19th century. Jews, like other minority groups within the Muslim world, were subject to various restrictions long before that (see Dhimmi). However, despite its restrictive nature, dhimmi status also afforded the "People of the Book" relative security against persecution and welfare most of the time — a protection that was missing for non-Christians in most of Europe until the institutionalization of equality under a secular idea of citizenship after the French Revolution - and allowed them to enjoy their respective religious laws and ways of life.

"Antisemitism in the Arab world has increased greatly in modern times, for many reasons: the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire and traditional Islamic society; European influence, brought about by Western imperialism and Christian Arabs; Nazi propaganda; and the rise of Arab nationalism. In addition, there was resentment of disproportionate influence Jews had gained under colonialism, and of the Zionist movement. The rise of political Islam during the 1980s and afterwards provided a new mutation of Islamic anti-Semitism, which gave the hatred of Jews a religious component.

"For most of the past fourteen hundred years, according to Bernard Lewis, Arabs have not been antisemitic as the word is used in the West. In his view this is because, for the most part, Arabs are not Christians brought up on stories of Jewish deicide. In Islam, such stories are rejected by the Qur'an as a blasphemous absurdity. Since Muslims do not consider themselves as the "true Israel", they do not feel threatened by the survival of Jews. Because Islam did not retain the Old Testament, no clash of interpretations between the two faiths can therefore arise. There is, says Lewis, no Muslim theological dispute between their religious institutions and the Jews."

I see peace between "Jews and Muslims" (more to the point, between "Israelis and Arabs") as attainable and in the ultimate best interests of both parties. Long-term "alternative scenarios" would, in my view and expectation, be unacceptably unpleasant all around. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 17:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

It appears that Telushkin + Prager disagree very strongly with Lewis, and I find their arguments very compelling. How can you say that Islam does not see itself as a form of "true Israel"? They maintain that the ancient ancestors as documented in the OT are indeed prophets of God, only to assert that Judaism corrupted and adulterated the message of the Lord -- I'd say that Israel seems quite threatening, as it would maintain that it has not been the corrupter, but that rather Islam is. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 18:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Except that many Muslims, in many places, at many times throughout history, had a good relationship with the Jews. If you isolate yourself to Iran and the Palestinians during the last 70 years or so, and ignore the entire bredth of history, then yeah, it looks pretty shitty. But compare the experience of the Sephardi Jews in Iberia under Islam vs. under Christianity. Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain covers some of this. Blanket statements about what every muslim believes, especially about what every muslim that has ever lived believes about Jewish people is pretty bold, and also a gross inaccuracy. Yes, some Muslims, at some points in history, have said and done some pretty horrendous and abhorrant things about Jewish people. But it doesn't mean that all Muslims at all points in time have. --Jayron32 20:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

And, anyway, DR, you are describing an entirely academic, doctrinaire dispute over finer points of religious interpretation. No one needs to die over that. That dispute, and its outcome or lack of it, makes very little practical difference in the lives of the actual people on-the-ground in the actual dispute, which is primarily about territory (and the rights, economic opportunities, infrastructure, systems of civil-society and governance, etc. of the people who live on it). Bringing religion into it only makes those real-world – therefore solvable – problems more difficult to resolve, only obfuscates the real sources of the conflict, and only makes any discussion of the issues still more emotional and less rational. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, bringing religion and family disputes into a simple territory dispute usually makes it unsolvable. Human nature being as it is, disputes between brothers and half-brothers are often the fiercest and can last for many generations, and can even be resurrected after thousands of years! Dbfirs 11:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure, it's nice to be nice -- but I'm looking for validity to claims, not just consensus. My examples above reveal that this is not about territory but has extended farther in the past than your claims can support. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 16:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I still think the dispute is about territory, but I agree that it is also about history and cannot be divorced from the disputed founding of the modern state of Israel sixty-two years ago, or even the previous (almost) 4000 years of disputes between families, nations and races. Our articles on Abraham and Abrahamic religions are relevant, though the latter concentrates of theological differences. Dbfirs 23:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

organisational structure

(So, imagine a young man, perhaps mid twenties, who, having interests in a particular area, decides to set up an organisation and attract members with similar interests, in spite of having almost nothing to build on, and knowing many of the future members will be older and more knowlegeable and experienced than him) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

How would someone go about setting up a private, mostly secret organisation, based around the practicing of a particular skill or trade, perhaps loosely based on the old guild system, from nothing, in spite of the fact that potential members arrive only one at a time, meaning it would have to be started with only one or two, and gotten ready for more to arrive later? I imagine it would be strange for the first few people turning up and finding this out, especially if they are rather older than the group's creator.

Also, how might the founder of that organisation maintain their control over it even as older, more experienced people arrive and start trying to take over, but without having to establish a specific rule that says he is in charge, just by knowing all the rules, all the loopholes and everything, through having written them all himself, or perhaps with a little help from a friend?

148.197.121.205 (talk) 09:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I think you need to rethink this question. It does rather ramble on. One point: nothing can be MOSTLY SECRET. It is or it isn't.Froggie34 (talk) 09:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Consider founding a religion. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I suggest using the internet to organize your medieval-style secret guild. Google_groups might be a good choice, depending on what you're trying to accomplish.

You'll need to work hard to actively recruit people in your target audience, and convince them to do the same.

Staying in charge is largely a matter of politics. Be hardworking, charismatic, and do whatever you need to to convince people you're the best person for the job. APL (talk) 14:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I also am finding it a bit hard to make sense of what you're asking for. Let's put it this way. You are trying to attract members to a group, without advertising it. OK, that's not impossible, though it is inefficient. But you're also trying to guarantee that the others won't take over the group. You can't do that without some sort of leverage. It could be resources, it could be charisma, it could be threats of violence (as in, for example, a street gang), whatever. Internal group rules are probably not sufficient leverage. Let's say I find your group. I feel I would be a better leader. I convince the others of this. What are you going to do? Point to a rule book? "Fine," I say, "but we all quit the group, and are forming our own, new group, with me as the leader, and you don't get to be in it. So there." What can you do to stop that from happening? A rule book is not going to do it. Maybe if you were the one holding the purse strings, you could say, "OK, but then all funding disappears," and that would work. Maybe if you could assault the splitter and make the others fear splintering off (the mob's way). Maybe you could give an elegant speech that showed exactly how much more clever and how much better leadership you had than the splitting guy — in which case, though, the situation probably wouldn't have ever arisen. Maybe you have material that you can blackmail everyone else with, maybe you own the basement where the meetings take place, maybe maybe maybe. Whatever the case, you need leverage. Appealing to rule books by themselves gets you nothing unless people respect the rule books. (Which in most situations — like governmental laws — requires their being enforced with violence or other forms of coercion, in the end.) It's possible that you'll find people who will just respect rules for their own sake... but unlikely. If you don't set things up so that it is people's mutual interest (for whatever reason) to follow the rules, they won't. And shouldn't, frankly.

The reason medieval guilds "worked" was that they had something that people wanted. They had a monopoly on skills and access to work. That's leverage. Founding a guild for something which you have no monopoly will not get anyone to join. Founding a guild where you have a monopoly on skills but not access to work will mean that your first student (or so) will leave and found their own competing guild (or company, or whatever). Guilds only worked (for awhile, anyway) because they could preserve their monopolies and thus their leverage. They fell apart when their monopolies were broken (either by the winds of commerce, or by the revocation of their status by the state), when they ran out of leverage. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose he's imagining a situation where everyone comes up and says "Bob, we've voted you out as leader. Alice is the Grand Poobah now." and then Bob says "Wait a minute. According to the charter you can't elect a new Poobah without first posting a coded advertisement in the local newspaper." and then he reveals that Poobah elections may only take place once every ten years.

I can't imagine this working very well, especially if everyone knows he's the one who invented the rules in the first place. APL (talk) 16:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I think Mr. 98 has summed it up pretty well, though for the sake of argument, I'll throw in the Keyser Soze arrangement. Any organization needs people to do various things: operations, finances, leg breaking, what have you. If you can keep as many branches hidden from each other as possible, you can use your knowledge of the branches themselves as your leverage. The guy who's loading the trucks or printing the pamphlets or whatever it is can't very well take over the company if he doesn't know what the rest of the company is or who is doing it. And being younger and less experienced is not an issue if you only present yourself as an emissary of "The Powers That Be", while keeping to yourself the truth that there is nobody above you. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 19:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Something a bit like the Freemasons? ~AH1^(TCU) 23:15, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Cartoon about English and French ant armies

Sorry if I'm being dense, but can anyone explain the cartoon on this page? TresÁrboles (talk) 17:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It likely refers to the recent news that England and France recently entered into an agreement to share military resources. -- 140.142.20.229 (talk) 18:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, that must be it, thanks! TresÁrboles (talk) 18:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

What is in this pic?

Does anyone know what the... umm... pipes? coming out of the wall in the pic on this page might be? It's the pic of the guy taking a pic of himself in a mirror. Art? Some useful spice rack sort of thing for stuff? What? Dismas|^(talk) 20:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The cylinders are from a magnetic spice rack (it looks familiar; maybe from IKEA); I think he's stuck them to a metal-backed whiteboard rather than the stainless-steel plate they came with. I'll see if I can find the specific rack. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 20:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, if you search Google Images for "magnetic spice rack" you find a bunch of ones just like these; some are shown on a stainless steel plate, others (including some DIY ones) stuck to various metal things. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah! Okay. I can't really think of too many things that would fit in those that I would use in a bathroom... Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 21:29, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

new york world telegram and sun

Have tried everywhere to get the front page of the above newspaper for January 1, 1936. My father was the first baby born in NYC one second after midnight Jan 1, 1936. His picture was on that papers front page. We are having a grand party for him, and would love to show him that original paper. Thanks so much for any help.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evetsnibur (talk • contribs) 23:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure it's available on microfilm at the New York Public Library. You could have a copy made. Other research libraries, especially in the New York area, are likely to have it on microfilm. The original newsprint page may be very hard to find. Newsprint doesn't hold up well after about 30 years. Marco polo (talk) 01:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Have you checked with New York World Telegram & Sun Newspaper Photograph Collection for the photo? They say they have the paper on microfilm in the Newspaper and Current Periodical Reading Room. So NYCPL or LOC should do.John Z (talk) 02:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

November 5

American Made, Really?

Many motorcycle manufacturers boast that their product is "American Made." What percentage of their product, to include components are really American Made? In example; Harley-Davidson: 87%, Victory: 75%, etc.--76.230.92.202 (talk) 00:11, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

At what level do you mean to measure at? Does the iron and coal that were melted down to make the steel have to been mined in America to count as American made parts? Does the petroleum that was refined to make the plastic have to have been extracted form American soil? Heck, there's a guarantee that the tires aren't American, since we don't have any rubber plants in America. Any such percentages, if published, would be pretty much pure bullshit, when something claims to be "American Made" it is usually just marketing. Even if the final assembly was done in America, some aspect of the parts or materials likely came from many other places in the world. This isn't always a bad thing, if something is very expensive to make in the U.S., but much less expensive to make elsewhere, those costs get passed on to you, the consumer. You may be willing to pay a premium for locally made products, but it does little good to build a motorcycle so expensively that noone can afford to buy it. See The Wealth of Nations, especially Book 1, which deals with the real costs in the manufacture of goods, and why "buying local" just for local sake is quite anti-Capitalist. --Jayron32 04:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

U.S. consumers are used to this information however, as the 1992 American Automobile Labeling Act requires new car labels to show percent country of origin. This site will let you look it up for various models.[5]. However the act uses part value as the metric (not volume or weight) and counts Canada as U.S.-made among other issues. Motorcycles, work trucks and buses are not included in the act's coverage either. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Being endorsed by an act of Congress doesn't make it more true... --Jayron32 20:24, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I would think the key to "American made" is who's getting paid for building the object, i.e. are the laborers Americans, or are they elsewhere? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

What Polish people like?

What kind of products would have high success rate when imported to Poland (i.e exported from another country)? What do Polish people like? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.245.10.206 (talk) 07:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

From Economy of Poland, "Most of Poland's imports are capital goods needed for industrial retooling and for manufacturing inputs, rather than imports for consumption." and

"Imports: $149.6 billion (2009)

"Import goods: machinery and transport equipment 35.3%, manufactured goods classified chiefly by material 17.4%, chemicals and related products 14 %, miscellaneous manufactured articles 10.6%, mineral fuels, lubricants and related materials 9.6%."

AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Polish people (as opposed to Polish factories and industries) probably do not especially like industrial lubricants, industrial chemicals or mineral fuels. I think the OP is probably more interested in knowing what constitutes the miscellaneous manufactured articles. Googlemeister (talk) 14:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking rather that the OP is looking for suggestions on what to import to Poland in order to achieve economic profit. I would liken this to an attempt at market research. Speaking as a member of the target group, but not as a representative one, I'd say... German cheese, German cheese is what I long for, one store chain imported some excellent cheeses from Bavaria at excellent prices some three years ago, and I believe the price was so low because they didn't really know what they were dealing with (I actually inquired often on whether it would be back, got no reply). So, German cheeses, they know how to make great cheeses, those Germans. Please, do not import crappy second hand cars or more useless clothing to Poland, do not import more toys or what people call 'gift ideas' but what I call 'dust collectors' to be placed on the shelf. Think first. Cheers. Note to readers: this answer was not meant to be offensive, really it wasn't. --Ouro (blah blah) 15:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The Polish section in my local supermarket is a shelf in the canned fish aisle. You could try going to your local Polish shop, though, they might have some good ideas. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 10:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The OPs IP adress refers to Hanoi, Vietnam, so I am not sure there is a local Polish shop in his/hers vicinity. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

A soft drink called Fart sold well in Poland, but not so much in North America. ~AH1^(TCU) 23:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

chitty chitty bang bang race car

would you be able to tell me what the make and model of the race car they used (in the chitty chitty bang bang movie)to make the chitty car.i hope you can help me. garry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.236.162.130 (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

See Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (car) on Wikipedia.Froggie34 (talk) 14:43, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Linked that for you. APL (talk) 14:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The OP may be confusing Chitty Chitty Bang Bang (car), which was a film prop built in a number of versions for the movie, with Chitty Bang Bang, a series of real racing cars built and raced by Louis Zborowski. Zborowski's cars and their nickname inspired the movie car, but the latter was not adapted from a real racing car, although as this site suggests, the main driveable version was engineered by experts and had a powerful Ford V6 engine. Karenjc 14:56, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

NHL in US cities

Are there any cities in the US where the NHL is the most popular or at least as popular as the (generally more) popular of the other US sports? Aaronite (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Detroit calls itself "Hockeytown". But you need to know what you are measuring. Hockey stadiums seat far fewer than football stadiums but baseball usually beats all sports in the butts-in-the-seats measure by having by far the most games. Football may have the highest TV viewership but a championship season can be a real driving force for souvenir sales. Of course, having a logo associated as much with the city as the team (say the "Old English D") can drive product sales as well. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:28, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Since when does hockey have the most games? Baseball teams play 162 games per season. And some parks routinely sell out. APL (talk) 16:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I said "baseball usually beats all sports in the butts-in-the-seats measure by having by far the most games". Rmhermen (talk) 18:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Wow. I must be an idiot. I read that sentence more than once as reading "Hockey usually beats all sports...". APL (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Having lived in several places around the U.S., the places where Hockey is largely popular (most popular is debatable), where it has close to the popularity of the other sports, are New England (college hockey is even big there, when I was a kid in New Hampshire it was the most popular sport at UNH), Detroit, and Philadelphia. The other two American cities among the NHL's Original Six don't have as large of a hockey following, New York will always be a baseball town, and with three hockey teams in the New York metro area splitting loyalties, no one team captures the fervor you find for say, the Red Wings in Detroit. The Chicago Blackhawks have suffered from owner mismanagement for years; their owners had intentionally refused to have a local TV contract, a situation that ended only in 2008. Its hard to be popular if no one can see your games on TV. Other than that, you're best shot is Minnesota, where hockey is still huge. In fact, the fact that the NHL not once, but twice screwed up the hockey teams there (See San Jose Sharks and Dallas Stars) is one of the great shames of the 1990's southward expansion of the NHL, given its natural fanbase in Minnesota. --Jayron32 20:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Although Minnesota calls itself "the state of hockey", and hockey is certainly popular there, supposedly the three most-supported professional teams are the Vikings, Packers and Twins, in that order. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Even though they're the only major professional team in town, I doubt if the Columbus Blue Jackets beat out the Ohio State Buckeyes in popularity. Corvus cornix_talk 22:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to judge popularity, and I imagine the Buffalo Bills are more popular by most measures than the Buffalo Sabres. However, in my experience hockey fans are way more serious than football fans, at least in Buffalo. My impression is that people in Buffalo are into the Bills if the team happens to be doing well, a kind of fair weather friend fan type. Sabres fans, however, are fans to the bitter end. This is all anecdotal, of course. Pfly (talk) 11:57, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers, but let me ask another, similar question: Is there any city in the US where hockey gets regular front-page sports press? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaronite (talk • contribs) 16:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thats slightly different. Many of the cities with NHL teams will give back-page (or front-sports-page depending on the format of your local paper) coverage to NHL teams as merited. Here in Raleigh, North Carolina, we have an NHL team (Carolina Hurricanes which is our only major league franchise, and they do get decent press coverage because of that. Heck, they even made the main front page of the News and Observer when they won the Stanley Cup. --Jayron32 01:10, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure NHL teams get front page sports press in practically every city they're in. The San Jose Sharks even get front page coverage here in Sacramento, even though they're not really a local team, but they're the only NHL team in Northern California. Corvus cornix_talk 20:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

The Boston Globe Sunday magazine ran an article a year of two back about the time two or three decades ago when all the sports frenzy in Boston was focused on the Boston Bruins (Bobby Orr) and the Boston Celtics (Larry Bird and host of others), while the Boston Red Sox and the Boston/New England Patriots were dismissed as dead-end teams doomed never to win a title. Such was New England fatalism that even as late as 2001, a friend declared that "aliens will land on the White House lawn before the Red Sox or the Patriots win a national championship" a few months before the latter won the 2002 Super Bowl. —— Shakescene (talk) 09:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

time in distant lands

In places close to the equator, where there are no seasons, does the year mean anything? Might people there develop their own entirely different ways of measuring the passing of time? What might they be, what would be considered important enough there in a desert or jungle?

148.197.121.205 (talk) 17:36, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not correct to say that equatorial regions do not have seasons. They are just not the same seasons that are seen in temperate regions. Monsoon describes the strong seasonal shifts between wet and dry conditions in some equatorial regions. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

A historically important development of notions of time took place in ancient Egypt. Sophisticated math was used to understand seasonal flooding. This understanding of yearly cycles was a key factor in agricultural development. See Ancient_Egypt#Agriculture for starters. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

See wet season and dry season.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Even if there aren't weather-based seasons, there are still seasonal changes in astronomy, for example (views of the stars still change in the tropiocs through the year), so even if weather literally never changed for the entire year, the concept of the year would still be obvious. In places where there aren't pronounced changes in weather, there are strict monthly-based calandars that ignore the year. See Arabic calendar. --Jayron32 20:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

"Obvious" may be a bit strong; first someone has to figure out that looking at those lights in the sky is useful for something. --Anon, 00:25 UTC, November 6, 2010.

Modern society is arguable the first where people didn't figure this out on their own, probably because of the huge number of technological distractions we have for entertainment purposes. Every single known civilization I know of shows evidence of having figured out the patterns of the earth's movement around the sun, even if they had the reasoning behind those patterns wrong. --Jayron32 04:59, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

But if they hadn't, would you know about it, or would people write about other aspects of that society? --Anon, 05:02 UTC, November 7, 2010.

Pretty much every part of Earth has seasonal shifts on an annual cycle. In the equatorial regions of Southeast Asia, as SemanticMantis has pointed out, there are pronounced monsoons. The same is true in equatorial East Africa. Typically, equatorial regions get two monsoons a year, one a month or two after the September equinox as the Intertropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) moves south, and a second a month or two after the March equinox as the ITCZ shifts south. Equatorial West Africa and the Amazon Basin of South America are rainy year round, but there are maximums around November and April. In both of these regions, tributaries tend to flow from the south, which has a precipitation maximum in January/February, so the first 3-4 months of the year tend to be a time of high water and flooding. Marco polo (talk) 00:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Hair

I've been combing the internet via google for guides on cutting / styling my hair, and while there's plenty of google hits they're all unhelpful fluff. Currently my hair hasn't been cut for several years, and is, to put it mildly, an awful unkempt mess. Similar to this, but worse. I want to cut it myself into a nice style, perhaps something similar to this but shorter. Can anyone here find a guide online for cutting / styling a full head of messy hair for a completely clueless person? All the guides I've found so far assume you already have nice hair and a substantial amount of knowledge on hair care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.70.198.81 (talk) 19:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Without claiming any special expertise, my understanding is that it is quite difficult for even a trained hairdresser to cut/style their own hair properly unless it is already in generally good shape: that's why the profession exists in the first place. If you're willing to run a high risk of making it even worse than it is now (bearing in mind that you can't correct mistakes when cutting), that's up to you, but my advice would be to swallow the expense and have the initial basic job done professionally, or maybe find an acquaintence with past haircutting experience who'll do it on the cheap. I know female salons in the UK charge what seems to be disproportionally more than male ones - maybe you could talk a barber into doing it out of hours? I once had the opposite problem of wanting to drastically shorten my own hair - then very long by male standards- and finding the only barber nearby was appointment-only and fully booked that day: instead I managed to bemuse a female salon into doing it for about half their normal price, perhaps for the amusement value. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 21:43, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The combination of 1. bad state of hair, 2. no knowledge of hair, 3. doing it yourself, 4. desire it to look like a professional has done it; all bodes for disappointment and horrible hair. I would recommend going to a professional, in particular a stylist (not your standard barber shop for men, where they are not used to making the hair look like it does in the "after" photo you gave). It'll be expensive this round, but you can ask them what they are doing, and questions about what products you should use, and once you have it "under control" you can probably go somewhere cheaper in the future. Hair is complicated and you really shouldn't attempt to do it yourself unless you are trying to look like a Stooge. --Mr.98 (talk) 23:39, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

You might be able to find a Flowbee for sale somewhere. One of their main selling points is the ability to cut your own hair. Dismas|^(talk) 05:30, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

But poorly. --Mr.98 (talk) 20:17, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Its easy to use Hair_clippers#Electric_clippers with a comb guard so that your hair is all the same short length, although in my experience you get some fuzz building up around the lower back neck. Not quite so extreme as a buzz cut. 92.15.28.27 (talk) 15:11, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

My Google search for how to cut your own hair reported 7,420,000 results, of which the first one was the following page.

• How To Cut Your Own Hair: Scissors, Shears, & Hairstyling (with ads by Google)

—Wavelength (talk) 15:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

None of which resolves the question of how to get the results he/she wants. If you cut your hair at home, you will get what you pay for. The method on that page is basically "get your hair wet then cut it carefully." Which I'm sure the OP already could have figured out... --Mr.98 (talk) 20:18, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia's sound

I was listening to this file http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Cs-Antonin_Dvorak.ogg and I think it should be split up into three files: one of a female pronouncing his ful name, one of a male pronouncing his ful name, and one of a male pronouncing his last name only. The file contains three files already. Could someone do this for me because I would have no Idea how. thnx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.78.167 (talk) 21:12, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I can see your point, but splitting it into three would mean that the pronunciation link in the article would only link to one of the files and therefore pronunciations, or would be messy, containing three separate links. That file itself dates from 2005, so it's certainly been around, but I'm not sure why the original uploader created it that way. --jjron (talk) 15:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

November 6

Sea Foam Storm in Uruguay

I saw a video of it on TruTV's Most Shocking. But there's no mention of it on the Article. --Arima (talk) 00:20, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

If you have a WP:RS for that, Arima, you could put it in the article yourself... WikiDao ☯ (talk) 13:21, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Aliens and the U. S. Military

A month or more ago I heard a radio news report about a group of American air force personnel who were going public about having evidence that aliens have visited earth. I have never heard anything more about it. Did I imagine this? If not, where can I find the follow-up? Bielle (talk) 05:28, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

[6], [7] - here are a couple of refs, Bielle. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 06:09, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Jack of Oz. The reporting of the incident seems curiously flat considering the calibre of the men involved. Has there been no follow-up? Bielle (talk) 21:47, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Men? According to Jack's references, only Salas came forward claiming to be a witness. The other two officers mentioned just passed along what others had told them. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

At least two named officers commented on what they had seen. The others were senior officers receiving formal shift reports. I am not looking to support (or attack) what they have to say; I am merely curious to find, given the ranks and seniority of those standing up in public, there wasn't more press either at the time, or later. This is just the sort of story that normally get U.S. journalists all wound up. Bielle (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

If you google [air force ufo] you'll find a number of entries, including one at the CBS News site. Maybe there was something else going on that day, or maybe it wasn't taken seriously enough to be considered newsworthy. I was half-expecting to see a followup declaring it was a hoax, but I didn't find anything at a quick glance. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Dying

Situation handled. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

whats the best way to die without commiting suicide? I dont want to go to hell and I've had enough of my life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rewtp123 (talk • contribs) 07:59, 6 November 2010 (UTC) First, I should advise you to seek professional help, as we cannot offer medical advice. Beyond that, I will share this: For many years, I frequently felt as you do. I know how mental anguish can destroy the desire to live. I don't know your circumstances, but I would urge you not to give up hope. In time, you can move beyond painful experiences and regain happiness. My problem was depression, which I overcame by reading a book called Feeling Good and by practicing the techniques the book teaches with rigorous discipline. After a while, the techniques became habit rather than discipline, and my depression has largely disappeared. This is a book that literally changed my life. Now I am basically a happy person, even though, for the first 35 or so years of my life, I was very unhappy. If, on the other hand, you are suffering from incurable and debilitating physical pain, there are jurisdictions where euthanasia is an option. 76.118.122.191 (talk) 08:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Logotherapy is worth having a look at. Do something useful rather than moping. Everyone goes through some misery in their lives. 92.24.190.150 (talk) 20:40, 6 November 2010 (UTC) The best way to die is to fake your own death, and start a new life somewhere better. But don't claim on your insurance, or if anyone does find you that will cause all sorts of problems. Best to just disappear in a suspicious way, that doesn't implicate anyone else, such that you can claim not to have done anything wrong later. Or, write books, then you can shut yourself away from the world for days at a time and make up as many new lives as you want. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 10:15, 6 November 2010 (UTC) You might also want to talk to a priest, minister, or spiritual adviser. But the best way to die without killing yourself is to just wait for it to happen – it's one thing you can be sure will eventually happen! In the meantime, just do the best you can. Life is worth living, even at its worst. Regards, WikiDao ☯ (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Don't be too negative about going to Hell because it will have its good points. In Hell you will meet interesting people, it will not be difficult to bribe the boss or His his minions (hint: bring Pornography) and Paradise is somewhere in the neighbourhood. God knows how to get in there but look for a thermally insulated wall and the sound of hymn singing. If you need a lawyer, shop around because there is a lot of competion. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:56, 6 November 2010 (UTC) In addition to that, you'll probably meet a lot of cool rock stars, and Heaven is overrated, anyways. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 19:00, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Enough with the speculation. Back to work. ;) WikiDao ☯ (talk) 21:25, 6 November 2010 (UTC) Do not fear Hell; it is a wide-spread teaching that inspires fear and blind faith. John 5:28,29 tells us that the dead will be resurrected to either everlasting life or judgment. Torment in Hellfire IS an everlasting life; besides, a loving God would not condone torture. Gehenna is the actual term in the scriptures and refers to a place where we wait in a sleep-like death for the resurrection. I cannot answer your question because it is making the presupposition that there is any good way to die; "the wages sin pays is death (Romans 6:23)." As a matter of advice, I'd see a thorough study of The Bible and a more complete understanding of its Truths would be advantageous, as well as the above comments. 71.21.143.33 (talk) 20:29, 6 November 2010 (UTC) (schyler IP)

An educationist

I want to know about an expert on education (educationist)whose name I vaguely remember as Adolf Huxley. However, I am unable to locate the details. Can you please help me? S P Rajhans comment added by 59.95.68.157 (talk) 17:23, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

See Aldous Huxley--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:43, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Or perhaps the OP is thinking of Aldous's grandfather Thomas Henry Huxley - see the section Thomas Henry Huxley#Educational influence. Karenjc 21:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, it was Shantavira who added the heading Aldous Huxley, to replace the unhelpful Question which 59.95 wrote when asking the question. [8] Presumably Shantavira assumed their answer was definitely right? Anyway, that's why the title appears to contain different information from the original question. 86.166.42.171 (talk) 00:52, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I changed the title so that it doesn't anticipate Shantavira's answer. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 03:26, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Nokia phone questions

I recently thought I'd better upgrade my mobile phone at least twice per decade and thus replaced my Nokia 6100 with a Nokia C5-00. Now I have some questions:

• I transferred all my mobile phone contacts by first typing them on my computer on a text editor by hand, and then added them to the new phone also by hand. Is there an easier way to do this? Can I somehow transfer the contacts either directly from one Nokia phone to another, or via a computer? The Nokia 6100 doesn't have a USB port but the Nokia C5-00 does. Does this help?
• The Nokia C5-00 stubbornly insists on making the entire display completely dark if the phone hasn't been used in one minute. It offers a variety of screensavers, including a clock, but the screensavers are useless if I can't actually see them. Is there any way to make the display stay lit up? Also, the default clock screensaver doesn't take up the entire screen. Where could I find a screensaver that includes an analog clock that takes up the entire screen? I googled for "Nokia C5 clock screensaver" but did not find any trustworthy sites - other than Nokia's own Ovi store, but it's still difficult to find a suitable theme, also I couldn't find any free ones.

JIP | Talk 20:54, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

My Verizon phone has a free app where you can transfer your contacts onto their server, and then put it on any phone you want. I'm guessing there is a setting for when the screen turns off. That's all I got. Allmightyduck  What did I do wrong? 21:31, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

There are at least three ways to move data from the Nokia 6100 to a newer Nokia phone:

• It does have USB connectivity - the manual says it has a Nokia Pop-Port connector on the bottom end (beside the charge adapter. You'd install Nokia PC Suite on a Microsoft Windows PC, connect the 6100 to the PC with a Nokia DKU-5 cable (or one of the very cheap copies of it), copy the address book etc. from the 6100 to the PC, and thence (via another cable) to the newer phone.
• The 6100 also has IrDA, so if you have a PC with an IrDA port (which are frequently found on laptops) then you can do the same connection with that instead.
• In the worst case, you can tell a phone to copy contacts from its own memory to the SIM, then you transplant the SIM to the new phone and tell it to copy the contacts back from the SIM to the new phone's memory.

Now that you've got the new phone, it's a good idea to get the PC Suite program and use it to backup the phone every few months. That way if your new phone is lost or stolen, or has to be reset due to some technical issue, you don't lose all your contacts (or texts, photos, etc.) -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 21:53, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Schools of former school boards in Toronto

Which schools were part of York District School Board in Toronto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.35.55 (talk) 23:16, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

If you mean the York Region District School Board, then there is a list here; the York Catholic District School Board list is here. (Neither of those are literally in Toronto, of course.) I don't know of a former York District School Board that no longer exists, if that's what you mean. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:01, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the user is referring to the pre-1998 York (City) school board. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:03, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I found a document on the Toronto District School Board web site that says the City of York's school board was called the York Board of Education. However, web searches on this phrase are useless as they just produce hits on other similarly named bodies elsewhere, or on the York Region bodies mentioned above. If I wanted a list of the former City of York's schools, I'd go to a public library where they keep old telephone directories (I'm sure the Toronto Reference Library does, and there may be others) and look under "York Board of Education" in the business white pages for 1997 (the last year the City of York existed). Of course, that would not produce an all-time list. If that was what I wanted, I'd write to the Toronto District School Board (and explain why I needed it, so they'd know I wasn't wasting their time with silly questions). --Anonymous, 05:22 UTC, November 7, 2010, link added later.

November 7

Looking for information on civilian submarines

This is kind of an odd question, but then, that's what the miscellaneous Ref Desk is for, right? :)

I'm currently participating in NaNoWriMo and am writing a sci-fi-ish novel on a planet covered with water where submarines are used for travel, shipping, pretty much everything. I've tried to do as much research on my own as possible, but almost every resource I could find online is about military submarines. Does anyone know of a good resource about civilian submarines? Most important to me are how they would be laid out, how large of a crew would be needed for a non-military submarine (depending on the size, of course), how much cargo a submarine could carry, what travel is like in them, how long they can stay submerged for, and how fast they can travel, although any other information someone has would be greatly appreciated! Thanks. 24.247.162.139 (talk) 01:02, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

You may be interested in a previous discussion about submarine trains and the article about Merchant submarine. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 03:23, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This site has a list of links to Personal Submersibles Organization and various companies that sell or rent submarines; the ones I skimmed have specs. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:28, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It should be noted that the only compelling reason to build a submarine is to stay hidden. For normal, garden variety trade, where there is no need to hide your ship, surface shipping is FAR superior. Submarines are very expensive to build, to maintain, etc. When considering any form of transport, the important statistic is the cost per passenger per distance or cost per weight per distance for freight. --Jayron32 03:29, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

In the OPs sci fi story, there might be some menace to surface ships (Giant ship-attacking birds? Thick ice? Deadly surface weather? Giant flaming oil slicks? Pirates who don't have sonar or depth charges?), so that travel by submarine is the only safe way to be on (in) the ocean. Edison (talk) 04:39, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I don't doubt that someone could write a compelling story which would have a reason to have submarine travel. I was just pointing out that on earth today, they make no sense. If people lived in giant air-filled bubbles underwater, then submarines would make more sense. --Jayron32 04:57, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I was just going to point out that last thing. For some reason, in SF oceanic worlds seem to almost always have underwater cities rather tan floating-platform cities (Mieville's The Scar has an interesting take on this, but that's fantasy rather than SF). TomorrowTime (talk) 09:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(unindenting) Edison's right, the reason surface ships are used rarely is because the surface has various problems (storms and ice in particular), although there are both underwater and surface cities. Also, as it's taking place in the future, I'm being very skimpy on the details of, for example, their propulsion, and just assuming that in the future, we worked out some relatively efficient design of submarines and engines that make them worth it. The Personal Submarine Organization website, by the way, looks incredibly useful--thanks for all the links! 24.247.162.139 (talk) 19:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Er, also you might have a compelling reason to build a submersible if the place you intend to sail to is not on the surface. For example if you're a biologist or an oil prospector. APL (talk) 15:12, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to know more about the premise of the story. Was this planet always covered with water? If so, how could humans possibly have evolved? Or did they go to that planet from somewhere else? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

casiotone mt-35 price

i recently bought a casiotone mt-35 and dont know how much it is worth today —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.247.153.92 (talk) 03:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I'd suggest you look at completed listing on eBay or similar - as far as I can see, they don't appear to be worth anything significant, with the few I saw having sold for £10-£30. ~ mazca ^talk 11:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

A seller is asking GBP 12.99 for an MT-35. Here is a closeup photo. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:04, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

What's "Y30" as a passenger configuration?

I read the article about the recent Cuban plane crash, then followed the link to Aero Caribbean, one section of which discusses their fleet and its configuration. I quote, briefly:

• 1 Ilyushin Il-14M configured for Y40 passengers
• 2 Douglas DC-3 configured for Y28 passengers
• 1 Fokker F-27F Friendship configured for Y44 passengers/freight

Hmm, how many passengers are Y40? No problem, I Googled for "Y30 passengers" (with the quotes), and got two pages of hits -- ALL OF WHICH are back to the Aero Caribbean page or some copy/derivative of it.

What's up with that, and what IS a Y40 configuration that nobody else in the world uses?

DaHorsesMouth (talk) 03:54, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I have no clue, but Auto & Technik Museum and airliners.net both state that the Il-14M was originally configured for 24 passengers, but this was later increased to 36.

Traditionally, "First" and "economY" class tickets on airlines were abbreviated F and Y respectively; as air fares have become more complicated, other letters have come into use. Maybe Y40 means 40 seats with no first-class section. --Anonymous, 05:27 UTC, November 7, 2010.

MCA

i am already a student of M.Sc. finol year.after that can i get admission in MCA finol year —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.177.151.244 (talk) 05:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

This would be up to the admissions office of whatever school/college/university you are talking about. Why not just ask them? --Anonymous, 05:28 UTC, November 7, 2010.

(Tilt)shift lens

Is it in any way potentially or theoretically possible to somehow achieve something like shift on a point and shoot camera like a Lumix ZR1, without resorting to in silico approaches? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 13:12, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

You cannot shift the lens of the Lumix DMC-ZR1 camera relative to its body because it is fixed. However given the camera's wide angle lens ("equivalent to 25mm on a 35mm film camera") and high resolution 12.1MP sensor, there is good scope for cropping and enlarging an off-center portion of a photograph after you have taken it. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

I recently did some searching for information about DIY perspective control lenses for an SLR camera. I came to the conclusion that software will work better; in the past couple of days, I've gotten decent from hugin. Considering the quality of the input pictures (particularly, serious parallax from unsteady hands + nearby objects), I'd say that it did a better job than I would have figured possible. Simply stitching together a couple pictures and then adjusting the projection should give you good shift. Paul (Stansifer) 23:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

That's helpful Paul but to quibble, parallax is not the result of unsteady hands. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, right. Instead of "unsteady hands", read "inability to keep the camera in the same place between shots". Paul (Stansifer) 13:31, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Which three English counties do not have a university?

In the Hereford article it says that the county of Herefordshire is one of only three counties in England not to have a university. I was just wondering what the other two are? Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Cornwall has a university college and a partnership of outside universities with local FE and HE colleges but no university as such, I doubt if Rutland has one, can't think what the third would be. DuncanHill (talk) 22:56, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Rutland only has two towns, and neither has a university. The trouble is that when someone says "county", it's not always clear whether they mean a ceremonial county or a current one; someone of the former persuasion might consider Rutland to be cheating. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 22:58, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

At the other end from Cornwall is Northumberland, and even with the proliferation of renamings of colleges I don't believe there is a University of Alnwick or whatever. But the definition is imprecise. --Sussexonian (talk) 23:51, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Cornish Nationalists will tell you that they DID have a university, Glasney College, which was destroyed by the English in 1545. I couldn't possibly comment. Alansplodge (talk) 09:32, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

November 8

why do (American) football coaches dress so sloppily?

In the US sports universe, I approve of the tradition of professional basketball coaches dressing up for games in suits and ties. It lends a certain air of dignity to their role. In baseball, it seems resonable that the manager wears a uniform similar to that of his players. But why are football coaches (exemplified by Bill Belichick[9]) permitted to dress like such bums? They look sloppy and unprofessional, like guys off the street? Has anything ever been written about this phenomenon; when did it start? How did the legendary coaches of yesteryear (Lombardi, etc) dress? Don't most people believe that every member of a professional organization (especially those in management roles) should take some pride in his or her appearance?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 02:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm still looking for a cite, but I'm pretty sure that coaches nowadays are required to wear "officially licensed merchandise" as they stand on the sidelines. So, that pretty much eliminates the possibility of wearing a suit. There are, I think, a number of college coaches that still dress up, but I think there's been a bit of a "trickle-down" effect there. 128.111.130.159 (talk) 02:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Not the best cite, but this says something. It's e-how, so I can't give you the link. Anyway, here's the relevant part: Before 2007, coaches were required to wear official team gear supplied by Reebok, the official clothing sponsor of the NFL. As of July 2009, thanks to lobbying by coaches such as Mike Nolan and Jack Del Rio, coaches are allowed to wear suits, but only for games at home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.130.159 (talk) 02:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Tom Landry always wore a suit (according to my memory and this Google image search. And Ditka usually at least had a tie on under some sort of Bears paraphernalia. Dismas|^(talk) 04:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, a suit and also a hat. Very old-fashioned or traditional. As did Bear Bryant, for example. In contrast, from decades ago, Woody Hayes wore short sleeves. As did John Madden, as I recall. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:35, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

It's not immediately clear to me why we should apply the standards of dress from a buttoned-down office environment to the 'management roles' of someone who supervises adults playing games. Is there a reason why those particular rules should be applied, as opposed to the dress code of other athletic coaches (track and field? swimming? aerobics? personal trainer?) or management in other occupations (steelworker? infantryman? coal miner? grocery clerk)? Even within the business world, the 'dress code' for public appearances varies rather widely. Compare Steve Jobs and Bill Gates in this photo. 'Why are [they] permitted to dress like such bums' is really more fodder for a plaintive letter to the editor of Sports Illustrated. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:50, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Love

My friend said that it is not possible to "steal" someone away another person romantically, because they have free will. Is this true? AdbMonkey (talk) 04:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC) ACTUALLY, I was wondering other stuff about love too, but I am not sure I can ask here, because it might not be educationally sounging enough. But, I would want to know if love makes a person duller/number and if any scientific evidence can support this. Also, is love real? AdbMonkey (talk) 04:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

lol - yikes!

1. Define steal. it's not legal to actually steal someone in most places in the world. People are given to emotional fluctuations, however, and it's entirely possible (even common in some age groups) for someone's affections to shift from one person to another. This can be viewed as 'stealing', and usually is from the perspective of the one who gets left behind, but it's always a mutual thing. one can 'try' to steal someone from someone else, but people who try that usually over-estimate their competence: If they end up with the other person they think they've 'done something' to 'steal' that person, when in fact they didn't have any particular control over it; If they fail, they tend to forget about it. see selection bias.
2. Love doesn't make people dumber, but it does tend to make rationality a much lower priority. Love is an emotional bond, and not the kind of thing people are interested in being reasonable about. That's what makes it so wonderful and such a royal pain in the ykw.
3. Of course love is real. No one really has a good idea of what it is or how it works, of course, but it's an unmistakable experience. We are designed as a species to develop emotional bonds with others of varying degrees and intensities. There is nothing more fundamental than that to our experience of reality as individuals.

and the answer to the bonus question you didn't ask - yes, love goes well beyond sex. I'd dare to say that sex is to love the way that onions are to stew: a necessary ingredient that makes the stew good, but not what makes the stew hearty. --Ludwigs2 06:23, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Sex Ludwigs, What's Love Got to Do With It? Love hurts, love scars, love wounds, and mars, any heart, not tough, or strong, enough, to take a lot of pain, take a lot of pain, love is like a cloud, holds a lot of rain, love hurts, ooh ooh love hurts. - by Bryant & Boudleux Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:06, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

As a side note 'stealing' a lover (or at least a spouse can incur the wrath of the law in certain places. Like North Carolina. See alienation of affections.124.148.50.78 (talk) 11:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I like your answer, Ludwig. Very optimisitic. But how does one know one's in love? AdbMonkey (talk) 14:47, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

You say to yourself, "so that's what Love is." schyler (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

exactly. it's pretty much the same way you know that you're eating chocolate ice cream. try them together! --Ludwigs2 15:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

THIS TOO! Does a person every really love someone because of the other person, or is it just left over sort of niceness that they had for themselves being expressed over another person? Or is it what the person brings out in you and makes you want to do? Is it uncontrollable? Can you find yourself wanting a person, liking them, being happy around them, even though they do things that you don't mind at the time? How do measure love by feeling? Are there many types of loves? When a love goes cold, was there ever really "love" there or just companionship? I mean, I guess I've never been in love, if I'm asking. I don't need any questions answered about sex. That aspect I know all about, but I am very confused about love. Is it always happiness when you love someone? Is it very hard? It seems almost maddening to love someone all the time? Is that why it fades? The brain gets used to it and grows new nuerons? I am just wondering... thanks for answering. I really need to know though. AdbMonkey (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Love is a relationship, and it's constantly growing and changing, so it can have all sorts of flavors. About the worst thing you can do is always expect it to be the same, because that will surely lead to disappointment, as well as to the buying of red sports cars in your 50s. we cannot define love or analyze it rationally or scientifically (currently, and it will be a sad day indeed if we ever can), so stop with the questions and relax. It is what it is, you know it when you know it, it will always surprise you, and there's not a darned thing that worrying about it will do to help you. --Ludwigs2 15:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Love doesn't really exist. It's just a trick to get you to reproduce. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Buying a French prepaid debit card in the USA

Is it possible for me, in the USA, to get a prepaid debit card that is associated with an address in France? I'm trying to buy a music download that is restricted to residents of France, and does not appear to be available elsewhere. I should be able to figure out the web proxy part of this, but I still need a payment method that makes me look French. Thanks! ReverendWayne (talk) 14:45, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

marbles

How many people die a year from marbles? Ie eating them, choking on them, having them fall on ones head from a great height, etc. I've taken a gander at the marbles article but there is no relevant information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.67.93.111 (talk) 15:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

My best guess is that the number falls somewhere between the number of people killed by lightning and the number of people killed by flying monkeys. Googlemeister (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

This is an unhelpful response and lowers the quality of the reference desk. --Sean 17:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Is falling into a stranger's arms just a movie/television cliché?

It is almost a constant in television and in movies. A person learns some devastating news of some sort and then falls into a strangers arms and cries. For example, on Law & Order, CSI, NCIS etc. people (usually women) are constantly learning of a loved one's death and then falling into the arms of the CSI investigator/cop/DA and sobbing on their shoulder. I find this very odd and unlikely. I cannot imagine ever doing this, nor does it comport with my [admittedly unstudied] ideas of human psychology. My life experiences tell me that people often close up in such situations and don't want to be touched by anyone, and when they would act in this manner, it would only be with a loved one and never with a stranger. Is this just a cliché? Oh, I don't mean it doesn't ever happen or would never happen, but from watching shows, you would think it was ubiquitous, rather than a rarity.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)