Talk:Borough Hall/Court Street station

Entrances

The following entrances can be seen in photos at nycsubway.org:

• Lexington Avenue Line: northwest corner of Joralemon and Court; two on north side of Joralemon east of Court, at each corner of Borough Hall
• Others (signs don't say which platforms are accessed directly): southwest corner of Montague and Court; in the former Washington north of Montague (this one is easily seen on aerials); elevator at the southeast corner of Montague and Court (west of former Fulton)

[1] shows a major entrance where the elevator is now? It looks just like the current entrance in that area but the placement seems off.

There's also an entrance (BMT) at the northwest corner of Montague and Clinton.

There are apparently entrance(s) on the south side of Joralemon east of Court.

--NE2 12:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:163rd Street–Amsterdam Avenue (IND Eighth Avenue Line) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 17:31, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

correct location?

The article states the station is at the intersection of Court, Joralemon and Montague Streets. Shouldn't it be Court, Montague, and Cadman Plaza W? Montague and Joralemon run parallel to each other. Elsquared (talk) 02:42, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Borough Hall/Court Street station/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ZKang123 (talk · contribs) 01:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Will also check this out.--ZKang123 (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Early checks

• Earwig shows no problems.
• Images are free-use.
• The W train is mentioned in the lead but the bullet is not in the infobox. I guess limited services aren't supposed to be in the infobox?
  • That is correct. The top of the infobox is intended for daytime services, which correspond to the services that appear on the entrances, e.g. this image which only shows the 2, 3, 4, 5, and R. The N and W are listed further down in the infobox (along with the times when they serve the station), but since they don't typically stop here, they aren't listed at the top of the infobox. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Lead comments:
  • "The station opened on January 9, 1908, as part of an extension of the original IRT into Brooklyn." – "The station opened on January 9, 1908, when the original IRT extended into Brooklyn."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
  • "The Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line station under Brooklyn Borough Hall also has two side platforms and two tracks, but with the platforms on different levels." – "The Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line station under Brooklyn Borough Hall also has two side platforms and two tracks on different levels."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

First subway

• " was nearly completed, except for the entrances." – remove the comma
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Construction began at State Street in Manhattan on November 8, 1902.[6]: 162–191  Construction of the Joralemon Street Tunnel began in 1903.[11] " – sentence structure is a little repetitive here
  • I've rephrased this. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "as the terminal for the extension" – shouldn't it be terminus? Or is it an American English thing?
  • It is an American English thing (though we use "terminal" and "terminus" interchangeably). Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "in early 1909, celebrating the fact that it was Brooklyn's first underground subway station." – "in early 1909 to celebrate that it was Brooklyn's first underground subway station."
  • I also find this repetitive. Maybe you can move the fact at "Borough Hall was the first underground subway station in Brooklyn;"
    • Although I realize this is repetitive, the plaques were installed specifically because Borough Hall was Brooklyn's first underground subway station, rather than because of anything else. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 14:06, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Dual contracts

• "The line's Borough Hall station was designed as a two-level station" – was designed might be unnecessary. "The line's Borough Hall station was a two-level station"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "was to be excavated" – remove "to be"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "There were to be entrances on Fulton Street (now Cadman Plaza West[42][a]) at Montague Street and at Myrtle Avenue."
  • I guess the entrances were to be along Fulton Street, at the junction with Montague Street and at Myrtle Avenue?
    • These are, or were, two separate intersections. The intersection of Fulton Street and Myrtle Avenue as slightly north of the intersection of Fulton Street and Montague Street. The portion of Myrtle Avenue connecting with Fulton Street/Cadman Plaza West no longer exists. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Also rewrite "There were to be entrances on Fulton Street" – "Entrances were planned along Fulton Street"
    • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• " the tracks for the Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line had been completed" – "were completed"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "In 1920, a project to construct a new entrance" – rewrite to "In 1920, a new entrance".
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Because of the depth of the station, elevators were to ascend to Clinton Street at its western end." – "Due to the station's depth, elevators were designed to go up to Clinton Street at its western end."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "The eastern end was to contain stairs and escalators to Court Street itself, as well as to the IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line station." – "The eastern end was equipped with staircases and escalators leading (directly) to Court Street and the IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line station."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Later modifications

• "to prepare plans to lengthen the platforms at 23 stations on the lines of the BMT to accommodate eight-car trains." – "to plan for the lengthening of the platforms at 23 stations on the BMT lines to accommodate eight-car trains.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• "progress on the extensions did not occur until February 16, 1925" – "the extensions only proceeded from February 16, 1925"
  • What I meant to say was that further progress did not occur until February 16, 1925. Construction of the extensions did not start for several months. Epicgenius (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Would reclarify as such.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

      I have done this. Thanks for the review @ZKang123. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• "directed its engineers to prepare plans to lengthen the platforms at Court Street and eleven other stations along the Fourth Avenue Line." – this sentence is rather repetitive of the first.
  • Suggest "called/commissioned its engineers to look into..."
    • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Is the Fourth Avenue Line also a BMT line?
    • Yes. I think the Fourth Avenue Line project was a subset of the systemwide BMT platform project - out of 23 total stations, 11 were on the Fourth Avenue Line. I have now reworded the sentence so that the paragraph doesn't say "prepare plans to lengthen the platforms" twice. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "It estimated the project's cost to be $633,000 (equivalent to $10,563,000 in 2022)." – "It estimated the project would cost $633,000 (equivalent to $10,563,000 in 2022)."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 01:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• "because the platforms were so short." – "due to the short platforms."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "was performed" – "was undertaken"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• " The MTA also funded the project as part of its 1980–1984 capital program,[96][99] providing $3.5 million." – "The MTA also funded $3.5 million for the project as part of its 1980–1984 capital program."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• " In 1982, the UMTA gave a $66 million grant to the New York City Transit Authority. Part of the grant was to be used for the renovation of several subway stations, including Borough Hall's IRT platforms." – " In 1982, the UMTA gave a $66 million grant to the New York City Transit Authority, part of which was allocated for the renovation of several subway stations, including Borough Hall's IRT platforms."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• Wikilink Czechoslovakia
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "such as gray wall tiles that had been installed unevenly" – "such as the uneven installation of gray wall tiles"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "after a set of high entry-exit turnstiles there was removed." – "after the removal of high entry-exit turnstiles at the entrance."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

2000s to present

• "The ceiling was over 100 years old, and its collapse necessitated $8.3 million in emergency repairs" – "The collapse of the 100-year-old ceiling necessitated $8.3 million in emergency repairs."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "in need of renovation." – "requiring renovation"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "In November 2022, the MTA announced that it would award a $106 million contract for the installation of additional elevators at the Borough Hall station complex, making the Eastern Parkway Line platforms fully accessible" – "In November 2022, the MTA announced that it would award a $106 million contract for the installation of additional elevators at the station complex. This initiative aims for the Eastern Parkway Line platforms to be fully accessible."
  • Done but with slightly different wording. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "As of March 2023, work was scheduled to begin in mid-2023 and be completed in 2025."– "As of March 2023, work was scheduled to begin in the middle of that year with a scheduled completion date of 2025."
  • Done. By the way, I think work has already started, but I will try to get a source for that later. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Station layout

• "The IRT Eastern Parkway Line station, containing two tracks and two side platforms, runs east–west under Joralemon Street." – Reword to "The IRT Eastern Parkway Line station has two tracks and two side platforms and run east–west under Joralemon Street." Reword similarly for the two other sentences.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "not accessible." – "not ADA-accessible"
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
• "There are three overpasses of the Eastern Parkway Line platforms at the mezzanine level above the center of that station." – "At the mezzanine level are three overpasses of the Eastern Parkway Line platforms above the center of that station."
  • I've simplified the sentence. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Is there a photo of the mosaic of the Eastern Parkway Line station? I saw one for the Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line platforms.
  • Nvm I saw the photo in the history. Though I thought you could move the photo here instead since it seems more relevant here.
    • I will find another, more detailed photo soon. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "The Fourth Avenue Line platform is the deepest in the complex, under both sets of IRT platforms." – is there a depth mentioned in the source?
  • Sadly, the source does not mention the depth. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Turn the gallery section in the exits subsection using the multiple images template
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line platforms

• The mosaic name tablet kind of sandwiches the text too much. I suggest you could move it up to the history section.
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "There is a side platform southwest of each track; northbound trains use the upper level while southbound trains use the lower one." – "Southwest of each track is a side platform; northbound trains use the upper level while southbound trains use the lower one."
• "Both tracks become the local tracks for the line." – "Both become local tracks for the line."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "but was not used until the Clark Street Tunnel opened." – "but was not used until the opening of Clark Street Tunnel."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• I think you don't need to separate the design paragraph into another subsection.
  • Removed the header. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

IRT Eastern Parkway Line platforms

• "Between Borough Hall and Hoyt Street, there was originally a set of switches connecting the express tracks to the local tracks." – "Originally, a set of switches between Borough Hall and Hoyt Street connect the express tracks to the local tracks."
  • Done. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• "The switches have since been removed" – any reason why, and when?
  • I cannot confirm this, but I remember reading that these switches were removed in the 1970s or 1980s. This was probably to simplify operations, as there was another switch just two stops east (at Nevins Street), but this meant express trains could no longer serve Hoyt Street. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

BMT Fourth Avenue Line platform

• Design subsection could just be part of the overall section.
  • Removed the header. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• Can explain further what does it mean "some rush-hour W trains stop here;[184] and N train stops here during late nights."? Cos checking FN184 and 185 they don't really tell me much, unless it's to be assumed this station is a local stop for these routes.
  • Yeah, it basically is a local stop (express trains run over the Manhattan Bridge, bypassing six stops). Three rush-hour W trains to the 86th Street station, and nighttime N trains to the Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue station, all stop here. During the daytime, N trains use the Manhattan Bridge. The W train doesn't usually go into Brooklyn, but it would be negligent of me to not mention that a few W trains do, in fact, stop here. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Curious, does MTA provide like route maps with all stations? Or separate maps for late night services and all.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

      Yes, there is a night subway map, as well as various schedules showing all stations on a given route. The W train's schedule indicate that "Trips to/from 86 St run via the R line from Whitehall St to 59 St then on then N line to 86 St (Brooklyn)", but this forces passengers to look at the R schedule and N schedule to fully understand the routing. Unlike cities like Singapore or Paris, the NYC Subway has a bunch of route variations that aren't even reflected in the official maps, only in timetables. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Final thoughts

• I note the previous articles I've reviewed (14th Street Union Square and Fulton Street) mention about the passenger numbers, but this doesn't. Nevertheless, I can understand since this is the 28th, it's not worthy of mention.
  • I could look for some passenger stats. Union Square and Fulton Street were respectively the 4th and 5th busiest stations in the system in 2019, the last year of normal passenger numbers, but Borough Hall/Court Street did use to be one of the busiest stations in Brooklyn. Epicgenius (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
• I'm personally unsure if the surface connections section is relevant. Though I would have talked about what the station serves and notable landmarks.
  • I have added some notable landmarks and trimmed the surface connections section. In general, though, the detail about the streetcar loop is relevant since Borough Hall/Court Street was a major subway-streetcar transfer hub back in the day. Epicgenius (talk) 23:17, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
    • It seems to be a separate interesting article to write about, actually. Is there an article on the streetcar system yet? I might link that as the main article.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

      The closest thing I can find is List of streetcar lines in Brooklyn. Unfortunately, that article is in bad shape right now. – Epicgenius (talk) 19:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Putting article on hold while issues above are being addressed.--ZKang123 (talk) 11:37, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Above issues addressed satisfactorily.--ZKang123 (talk) 06:05, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 11:34, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that an expansion of the Borough Hall station cracked up Borough Hall? Source: "Borough Gossip: Cracks in Courthouse Alarm Downtown Population". New-York Tribune. March 20, 1910. p. B8.
  • ALT1: ... that an expansion of the Borough Hall station caused the facade of Brooklyn Borough Hall to crack? Source: "Borough Gossip: Cracks in Courthouse Alarm Downtown Population". New-York Tribune. March 20, 1910. p. B8.
  • ALT2: ... that the opening of the Borough Hall station was celebrated with flag wavings, a parade, and a banquet? Source: "Battery Subway Open: Trains Go to Brooklyn Beginning of New Service Marked by Celebration to-day". New-York Tribune. January 9, 1908. p. 3.
  • ALT3: ... that a winking eye and blowing smoke rings were added to the Borough Hall/Court Street station in the 1970s? Source: Burks, Edward C. (November 18, 1976). "A Subway Elongatomus? Why, It's Preposterous!". The New York Times.
  • ALT4: ... that it took almost as long to renovate New York City's Borough Hall station in the 1980s as it did to construct the city's original subway line? Source: Levine, Richard (March 30, 1987). "Saving the Subway's Last Mosaics". The New York Times.
  • ALT5: ... that the New York City Transit Authority once sued a contractor to force them to finish renovating the Borough Hall station? Source: Finder, Alan (March 16, 1992). "Transit Authority Switches Tracks". The New York Times.
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jack The Ripper Stalks His Victims

Improved to Good Article status by Epicgenius (talk). Self-nominated at 13:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Borough Hall/Court Street station; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• New enough, eligible due to Good Article status, QPQ done. I suggest ALT 4 for the hook, but omitting the word "city's" as that implies ALL subway lines whereas the article seems to indicate just the line passing through the station. Coretheapple (talk) 14:20, 30 August 2023 (UTC)