Talk:Carl Frampton

Flag

Flags should not be used in infoboxes. See WP:MOSFLAG for details.  Tigerboy1966  03:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

By the way this is nothing to do with any nationality issue. Flags in infoboxes are just wrong.  Tigerboy1966  07:39, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Nationality

I have removed the nationality from the lead, and Tigerboy from the info (Not the first time). Until we have a sourced nationality and clear indication of it, these should be left-out. Also for those who keep adjusting the flag icon for who he won the silver medal for, do your research first- yes it was Ireland, not NI or GB. Murry1975 (talk) 08:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the flag icon and here's why: the flag icon when you roll the mouse of it, says 'Republic of Ireland' but the IABA represents all of Ireland which Frampton represented. So the best option is either no flag or the NI ulster banner, as Frampton is from NI.Factocop (talk) 10:00, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Thats the flag he faught under and is used. Same as all IABA fighters in the Euro champs and world champs as well as the Olympics. Murry1975 (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

http://www.iaba.ie/ireland-beat-scotland-in-derry/ Ireland v. Scotland in Derry poster showing flag. Murry1975 (talk) 13:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that he fought for Ireland, but he did not fight for Rep. of Ireland. When you run your mouse over the flag icon it says Rep. of Ireland...do you see that Murry?Factocop (talk) 14:11, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Well we could change that, but thats a different story. As shown in the link the IABA use the flag of Ireland. You have shown nothing to back your revert. Murry1975 (talk) 14:18, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

How do we fix it? I've explained my rationale for the edit. Whats your point? anyway....the flag links to Rep. of Ireland but Frampton represented Ireland. So the flag is ok but the link is not, but in the infobox it says 'Ireland' yet it links to ROI. Maybe the template is iffy.Factocop (talk) 14:23, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Murry, your edit is still incorrect. Carl Frampton has never represented Rep. of Ireland. Why did you reinstate your edit if it was incorrect?Factocop (talk) 15:34, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Thats the flag they use, it doesnt matter that some dont like certain usage of it, its the one they used, as I have linked to above. Murry1975 (talk) 08:58, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me make it clear as obviously the penny hasnt dropped. When you hover over the flag, it is piped to 'Republic of Ireland'. Carl Frampton did not represent Rep. of Ireland. He represented Ireland. What you currently have is factually incorrect. Do you understand?Factocop (talk) 09:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The IABA isnt a medal country,England is. So me is thinking why? Just because he faught under the flag of Ireland? Murry1975 (talk) 09:11, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

ROI is not a medal country, Ireland is. IABA represents all of Ireland. Why do you want people to believe that Frampton represented ROI? What I had was accurate.Factocop (talk) 09:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I've just looked at the situation at Rugby Union, another 32-county sport. On wikipedia articles the "flag" used is the logo of the Irish Rugby Football Union. Could we use the IABA logo?  Tigerboy1966  09:19, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Good idea.Factocop (talk) 09:16, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

The IABA compete under the Irish flag, as linked to thier website. If the flag is to be changed then all boxing association flags need to be, either that or we are censoring the information and what is used. Murry1975 (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with the flag, but it does pipe to ROI. Carl Frampton did not represent ROI. Why do you want people to believe this Murry?Factocop (talk) 09:25, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

So you are saying if I can pipe the flag to Ireland by itself you would be ok with that? Or claim then the flag doesnt represent the whole island? Murry1975 (talk) 09:27, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Done then and linking text to island. Murry1975 (talk) 09:33, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Thats perfect. Though I don't understand how it took for me to make 10 or so edits here for you understand what I was trying to do. but Thanks all the same.Factocop (talk) 09:41, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Dont worry someone will object. Murry1975 (talk) 09:45, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

It is wikipedia afterall. good work.Factocop (talk) 10:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Enough, already

Sick of all this flag nonsense. So I'm going to actually going to improve the article with some detail and reliable sources.  Tigerboy1966  18:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Nationality... again

I have changed Nationality to British/ Northern Irish as that seems to cover all the bases. Tigerboy1966  11:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You deleted a source to back up your edit. Covering all bases isnt what wiki is about. Its about accurate sourcing of facts. Murry1975 (talk) 11:41, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I am trying to find a sensible, accurate compromise. I'm not sure that you are interested in that (see previous discussion)11:56, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

btw the source was already quoted in the article. The source shows that CF is rated #1 amongst boxers under BBofC jurisdiction. It does not guarantee nationality. Tigerboy1966  12:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

So Northern Irish is a nationality? Link it to its article then. Nationality can be be based on what we have as sources, box rec is very good. Now I have noticed your edit has been altered in the aricle and you haven done anything about it. Murry1975 (talk) 12:38, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Err... what? Maybe English is not your first language but I will try to deal with what I think you are trying to say. Boxrec uses the UK flag to indicate boxers who are eligible to box for a British title: that's all. As for Northern Irish nationality I would refer you to Annex 2 of the Good Friday Agreement.12:50, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And while we're here, looking back over the article history, all you seem to have done is argue about flags and nationality, whilst making no attempt to improve or expand the article. Tigerboy1966  12:55, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Boxrec uses the liecence they fight under. As for Northern Irish as a naionality its not mentioned in the GFA. People of Northern Ireland is the article, around the 30% mark view themselves as such. So based on what evidence we have he has competed for the Irish nation as an amateur and professionally for the UK, British. Yet you edit adds a margibalised and unrepresnted nationality. MOS says we used sourced factual information in BLPs. Not a compromise that we lett be changed if itts suits our POV.

And as for your last point, I asked you a question on your tp before and you never bothered answering. And you "improvement" is marginal and in this case inaccurate. Murry1975 (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry mate, I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say. Can you get someone to help you with the typing? Tigerboy1966  14:27, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Just double checking: every single edit (and there have been many of them) made by Murry1975 to this article has been to argue about issues relating to nationality, ethnicity and flags. Not ONE constructive attempt to improve or expand the article just endless pointless bickering on technical points.  Tigerboy1966  15:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

And your point being? I have added sourced info, you have removed without additional sources. My edits may be narrow, but yours are against WP:MOS and WP:BLP. And just to give my edits perspective,

I added he is British, sourced and factual- continually edited out replaced with Northern Irish or Irish

The flag he faught under was the Tri-colour, sourced and factual- a long time POV multi-socking editor objected

Your edit on natioanlity was undone by another editor, Tiger, yet you have refused to revert them, Why? Or are you going to side-step this one again. Murry1975 (talk) 15:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Here and [1] are links that should help. Murry1975 (talk) 15:36, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Bored with this. I'll go on expanding and improving the article. You can keep on getting your pants in a twist over your flag/nationality issues. I really can't be arsed with you anymore. Tigerboy1966  15:51, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

see WP:SOUP.  Tigerboy1966  15:54, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

So I will revert to the sourced version without your disruptive reverts and comments, and refusal to answer questions then? Murry1975 (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

You will make yourself look pretty stupid if you do. Tigerboy1966  16:18, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

As stupid as you look now? Or more stupider? Murry1975 (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

He represented Ireland as a boxer therefore with regards sports which is why he is notable. Also there are multiple references saying he is British, Irish and Northern Irish but it appears that he self identifies as Irish in this article. http://www.boxnation.com/boxing-news/carl-frampton-lining-up-leo-santa-cruz/ --Donniediamond (talk) 19:43, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Whilst it is obviously an easier way to get past the issue by simply leaving the nationality out altogether I must say User:Donniediamond that your oft repeated edit summary of see the talk page discussion makes no sense as there is no consensus on what to use here at all. You are using a nothing to give credence to your own reverts. The only sense that Frampton identifies as Irish is simply because of how boxing is organised on the island. If this was his political identification I'd be quite sure the people of Tiger's Bay would of had him evicted long before he rose to fame as a boxer. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:34, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Mabuska, I wasnt trying to claim a concensus, I was merely trying to stop the idiotic revert war and bring it to a discussion. The above article that I have linked to refers to him self identifying as Irish in relation to his professional career not his amateur career. --Donniediamond (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

He boxes solely under a British pro-liecnce never under a Irish one since an amateur. He is British. Murry1975 (talk) 12:21, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Holding a British licence is not an indicator nationality. There are people from around the world that hold a British pro boxing licences. Andy Lee holds a French licence, he's not French. Manny Pacquiao holds an American licence, he's not American. --Donniediamond (talk) 12:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Their is no evidence anywhere of Irish nationality, Ian Paisley ""I would never repudiate the fact that I am an Irishman". You have to have Irish citizenship to box under n Irish Pro liecnce also you cant hold any other pro liecnce, this would be an indicator of nationality, aligning to be Irish, isnt, but it does leave out the option for Northern Irish from the article. Murry1975 (talk) 12:43, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Donniediamond, if there are multiple articles where he refers to himself as Irish, and is referred to as such, these could be used as a basis to form consensus. Murry1975 (talk) 15:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Murry, as you can see from my reply to Mabuska above I've never claimed there was any consensus, hence the reason I have always requested that those who engage in Nationality Warring should come to the talk page and discuss the matter. --Donniediamond (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

With Carl's fight tomorrow night, its right about that time again! While no general consensus has been reached, it is quite clear that there is adequate evidence to support an argument from both sides. Leaving the matter out of the article's intro and infobox was the only appropriate form of compromise in my opinion, and this seemed to have been accepted, however IP's have once again disrupted the peace. Is protection an option for the page? If so, has it been requested? IIISmokeyIII (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Northern Irish would be the best and least contentious. It is a demonyn that simply means someone from Northern Ireland, hence the usual pipe-link to "People of Northern Ireland", and for quite a lot of people in NI it is a nationality on pair with English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish considering it was the second largest national identity given after British, with Irish in third. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:57, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

"best and least contentious", now that is a highly contentious assertion. Donniediamond (talk) 16:09, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Have to agree with Mabuska. He is correct in that "Northern Irish" a demonyn that simply means someone from Northern Ireland, and it offends no one.Dubs boy (talk) 19:25, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

"Northern Irish" is a high contentious demonyn. Less that 50% of those from Northern Ireland recognize it as a demonyn that fits them. Do you think less than 50% of people from France consider themselves French, those in Poland, Polish, etc etc? --Donniediamond (talk) 10:58, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

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