Talk:Man of La Mancha

Discussion

Articles for the songs in this play, included the one by the title song need to be created and a deambigious page added. Joncnunn 18:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

According to IMDb, the play did not open on Broadway on 22 November 1965.

"The original stage production opened at the ANTA Washington Square theater in New York City on 22 November 1965, moving to Broadway after a short run, and eventually having a total of 2329 performances." [1] TheMadBaron 08:36, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It opened near Greenwich Village, but not directly on Broadway. AlbertSM (talk) 02:41, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Need references

This article is entirely unreferenced. Please see WP:OR. -- Ssilvers 21:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Mispronunciation

It should be noted how O'Toole mispronounces "Miguel" as [migwel]. 71.231.143.203 (talk) 06:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Everyone in that movie says "Migwel". It is the standard British pronunciation. AlbertSM (talk) 20:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Idealism/Attitude

There should be some discussion of the relationship between "Man of la Mancha" and the actual "Don Quixote"--especially as pertains to 'the message' of the show. That is to say, was Don Quixote really written as a defense of idealism? (probably not...) Did Cervantes really identify with his main character, or was he mocking him? (probably the latter...) 69.178.122.114 (talk) 16:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Orchestrations credit

I would really like to know if this Carlyle Hall story is true, because in the show's original 1965 souvenir program booklet (issued at least three times during the show's original run), Mitch Leigh writes an article about composing the score in which he just about states that he did the orchestrations, and in Dale Wasserman's 2003 book, The Impossible Musical, Wasserman seems to back him up. And the Internet Broadway Database has information on the 2002 revival of "Man of La Mancha". Their information states that Music Makers, Inc. did the orchestrations.AlbertSM (talk) 19:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC) Please contact me- I am Carlyle W. Hall's grandson and OWN THE ORIGINAL SCORE IN MY GRANDFATHER"S PEN.. LEIGH legally agreed to correctly credit Carlyle W. Hall Sr. via a settlement with the family of Mr. Hall. but that was a REPRINT of the play bill credits- MR. Billig and I have met and it was he who suggested I contact Mr. Leigh to set history straight. You can reach me via email via wiki email function...i can produce the playbill revised and any other proof including letters from Leigh's attorneys to our family, should you or Yale school of Music desire to know their school is named after a credit thief.. if your boss asked you to take credit and you wanted to get hired for the next MUSICAL being Cry For Us All--see that play bill which you will see CARLYLE W. HALL of Music Makers on the original broadway poster..please contact also Carlyle W. Hall Jr. of law firm of AKIN GUMP since he is an alumni of Yale I doubt he would lie.. I Have Mr. Leighs original ideas for orchestrations which bear little or no resemblance to the finals--truth is odder than fiction-bcpietsch write me at the name bcpietsch followed by @gmail account.

---

I will also upload the credits page from the 2nd playbill printing-replaced all the originals in the 2002 re-run..I talked to Billig in Dec. 2002. Leigh was contacted by our attorneys and he agreed to correct the playbill and acted insensed we felt he had stolen credit-fairly amazing ey? Heck I can even scan in the page of the conductor's copy and those that bear no resemblance SIGNED BY LEIGH IN his own pen... IF Leigh did the orchestrations why make up a complex accounting method and a shell corp. for Music Makers--he had several employees and pianos on 34 st ofice and one was my grandfather's...he was the only one who could handle the task as he studied composition with Bartok and Serle...and spent 20 years playing with Tommy Tucker, orchestrating Arthur Godfrey's "talent scouts" and its one thing to compose a set of piano tunes, quite another to take that to the level done in Man of La Mancha--bcp —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cuzzinmoose@mac.com (talk • contribs) 11:32, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but it isn't enough to get in contact personally with us. You must add an online citation. I am not saying this because I don't believe you. I am saying it because it is standard procedure at Wikipedia. Even if I don't demand an online citation for this section, sooner or later someone else will come along who will.AlbertSM (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, so now you have enough-but due to yours an other anonymous posts requesting citations debating the validity of my claims I have finally provided clear references now clarifying that the playbill was re-printed to correct the orchestration credit by Mr. Leigh during the final revival. It is listed in not only playbills I have, which could be subject to dispute but could be uploaded on request, but it is in the book cited Theatre World, where fortunately they used the final version of the playbill which never rescinded the corrected orchestration credits. Further I have provided citations which by checking any further musicals by Mr. Leigh such as Cry for Us All and Come Summer provide Mr. Hall's name as the orchestrator- showing Mr. Hall was in fact an employee of Mr. Leigh who worked for Music Makers. Mr' Liegh's show Man of La Mancha employed my grandfather as the sole orchestrator.

Regarding argumentativeness, Albert never suggested how I could prove this- he would not say a playbill was enough so I had to wait til it was collated by Theatre World and thank god they saw the show and took the final play bill versions near the closing or this omission would have continued to be a debate. It is now indisputable if the final playbill of the revival cites the ORIGINAL ORCHESTRATIONS for the entire show were done by Mr. Hall that all citations that the person who place ind as a, b, c, d, e from IMDB are in fact simply not clear in stating that while Music Makers was Mr. Hall;'s employer, the final play bill tells WHO WROTE THE ORCHESTRATIONS. One would think that for such a major success a person would be more understanding of the feelling of being slighted. Had subsequent efforts of this team gone on to great success it might be a lesser point but this did not happen and the fact is that the quotes floated about in"THe IMpossible Muscial etc" made it sound that Mr. Leigh was in fact stating he had come up with the orchestrations if not written them himself. I have no desire to debate this, I have the facts and he reprinted the playbill-its documented and can be stated in any way wikipedia authors wish as long as it is written that the original orchestrations while initially credited to "MUSIC MAKERS INC" that in fact the only original orchestrator was an employee of that company, named Carlyle W. Hall Sr. who was awarded credit correctly in the final revival of the play. However I will continue to say the page is not fair if it does not recant that items a,b,c,d,e while citing Music Makers are correct in that was the company the orchestrations were written for, that the orchestrator was Mr. Carlyle W. Hall Sr. from the inception of the play as is totally clear from all I have provided. I can not force Mr. Leigh to go reprint original posters fro 1965 but I could at least have him correct this terrible error allowed to languish for so long. I will say no more but certainly could if I were to be totally frank.

.It certainly can be restyled as not a debate any longer but when citatiions needed are installed and talk sections suggest Mr. Leigh took credit in the book the Impossible Musical it only exacarbates the truth here. Now I have provided ample evidence and would not be bothered with this if in fact the orchestrations were not the master work of my grand father a well respected musician and orchestrator for almost 50 years. He studied under Bartok, Serly and has recorded records in Peter Bartok Studios (Night Song). I haev original manuscripts of all Man of La Mancha conductor copies which my grandfather conducted during early rehearsals. If there is any further question it is clear that there is no ambiguity. Music Makres, while technically correct in being an umbrella employer is NOT A person, a person orchestrated masterfully this musical and in fact it is clear that one of the main reasons for its success was the unique and astounding orchestrations-totally unique to my grandfather's training. Finally, can one find any musical or production where Mr. Leigh is listed as the orchestrator--when one implies they wrote or came up with the orchestrations it is simply a severe issue of integrity and one that he thankfully corrected. Now if Wikipedia will allow this to finally be resolved rewrite away and if these sources are not enough I will have to provide the legal letter but I prefer not to step that far and happy to delete any mention of such matters. I was happy to state Mr. Leigh corrected a long overdue slight and corrected the original orchestration credits-this would be fine if it is written, At this point I am weary from Wikipedia's stance, when I stated I had documents and ccould provide them. Albert did not request them- he said it was not good enough. And a playbill is hardly proof ---10 (which I have is better_ but there were 10s of thousand printed. Do i need to get proff from the printing co. as well? Welcome any qualified wikipedia author to clean this up and clarify it but if there are issues of confusion I can provide any and all clarifications, book citings, copies of playbills etc. but the book should suffice as its a long respected historical record of the season on Broadway. (Bruce (talk) 18:44, 30 March 2011 (UTC))

It would seem to me that Wikipedia is not the place for the above 'controversy' to be chronicled, certainly not to the level of detail currently present in the article. Further, given both the nature of the material and the context of the person who wrote it, it would seem to violate WP:NPOV. If the matter is truly settled, then surely a simple credit to Mr Hall should suffice? If nobody has any objection I will remove the offending material. Kylehudson00 (talk) 11:46, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Influence on art and design

There should be a section of this article explaining the influence of "Man of la Mancha" on 1960s art, interior design, and even architecture. It was not uncommon to see Don Quixote paintings, art carvings, and other matador art emerge during this era as a direct result of the popularity of the play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.18.46 (talk) 06:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

There have been Don Quixote art objects for years and years. Go to any store in any Spanish-speaking country selling art objects, and you will find miniature statues of Don Quixote and Sancho easily, and they are not a result of the success of "Man of La Mancha"; in fact, according to Dale Wasserman in his book "The Impossible Musical", Spaniards actually don't like "Man of La Mancha" much. (Actually, they kind of resent the fact that Americans have been able to do what Spaniards never done successfully - make a musical out of "Don Quixote".) To Spaniards, "Don Quixote" (the novel) is a revered masterpiece and a national treasure, second in importance only to the Bible. Statues of Quixote can be seen all over Spain, and it has been so for a long time - long before "Man of La Mancha" was ever written.

Great artists like Honoré Daumier, Pablo Picasso, Francisco Goya and Gustave Dore have painted Don Quixote, and classical composers such as Richard Strauss and Georg Philip Telemann have composed works based on the novel.AlbertSM (talk) 02:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Question

We were reading this page and wondered why the song "Little Bird, Little Bird" is labeled "suggestive." It seems more like an ordinary ballad, and only the context of how the men do/will treat Aldonza makes one think twice about it. Are we missing some double entendre or is this an editorial error? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.255.108.212 (talk) 03:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

You are definitely missing something, and don't feel bad because I did too for years. The song is full of double entendres, but it can also be taken at face value. The "little bird" is apparently a euphemism for the male sexual organ. That is why Aldonza, in the play, says "I spit in the milk (i.e., semen) of your little bird". In the film, the line is changed to "I spit on all your little birds". AlbertSM (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Recordings

There should be some mention of the various recordings, in addition to productions of the show. I know there has at least been one with Placido Domingo as Don Quixote and this should probably be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.194.205.37 (talk) 20:06, 30 December 2009 (UTC) I remember a record album of the songs with Jim Nabors in the lead (he played the part in touring companies), supported by Marilyn Horne and Jack Gilford. WHPratt (talk) 15:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

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Bibliography

Apparently the "Study Guide for Man of La Mancha" link in the Bibliography leads to a "page not found" error. I'm not sure if any other links are in the same out-of-date condition, but that is certainly a problem. SeymourTheLlama (talk) 21:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)SeymourTheLlama

strings

The current rewriting seems ok to me, but note in the given context "strings" does not refer to any stringed instrument but rather the conventional/traditional String_section (violine,viola, bass) of a symphony orchestra.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

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