Talk:Paul Celan

Untitled

I believe that the article is much better than what it was. I believe that the quality standard banner may be removed now. Is anyone in agreement? vkxmai 05:23, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added a bit more depth to some of the sections. I have several excellent resources for biographical information on Celan (mostly in German, but I can translate) for our "verifiable sources." I will begin incorporating this later. I would like to re-work the section on his poetry into a time-frame set-up, perhaps even addressing his compositions based upon location, such as the importance of the Entstehung of earlier poems like "Nähe der Gräber." vkxmai 23:52, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I've found myself including further treatment of "Todtnauberg" and the Heidegger-Celan meeting in the Heidegger entry. I'm thinking therefore of creating a separate entry for "Todtnauberg" and, for the time being, treating the Heidegger-Celan meeting as context. Objections? Buffyg 09:06, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow you, but if you mean transferring part of the specific material on "Todtnauberg" here to this new article, it's OK for me. The section is a bit unwieldy as it is now. RodC 22:40, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have edited a little bit edited your article on Paul Celan because it has many points in which u almost use anti Romanian propaganda ideas. In the old version it was written "Fascist Romanians came back". Romania was not fascist at that time, because the Legionar Party Rebellion was completely dismanteled in 1940. There was a special Antisemitic policy for Bukovina and Basarabia. It doesn`t make sense why Celan would want to leave Bukovina and live in Bucharest if the Jews there had such a terrible time. They were put at forced labour and at cleaning, moping etc. I think u can check a very nice book, Mihail Sebastian`s Diary, a Jewish writer whose diary has been translated to English recently. MayumaMayuma 20:42, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The section on antisemitism reads like Nazi propaganda. To suggest that antisemitism was born as a result of Jewish retaliation against German atrocities is idiocy bordering on evil. The entire section is rife with grammatical and spelling errors to boot, and should be deleted.

If u claim all Romanians were fascist at the time u are an idiot. Romanian army had nothing to do with German atrocities, there is no Nazi propaganda here but simple truth. They were no invaders, they just returned on a part of Romanian territory that was occupied by Soviet Army in 1940 after the Viena dictatum. Ribbentrop and Molotov cut Poland in two halves and Bukovina had the same fate, the Northern part became Russian and the Southern remain in Romania. Where have u taken your information from? Romanian army had nothing to do with the fact Paul Celan`s parents were taken to a labour camp and died in Muntenia( u used Wallachia). There was no Nazy party at the time it had been already completely wiped out in 1940 after the Iron Guard Rebellion. The Romanian political parties were forbidden by King Carol II who created his own party called "Totul pentru tara". General Ion Antonescu was appointed prime minister without any free elections and the country became a royal dictatorship. General Ion Antonescu himself conducted the massacre against gypsies, Jews and other ethnic groups in Basarabia and Bukovina. He did this because he was allied to German army and it was his own personal decision. No Romanian politician was aware of his plans. He was put on public trial after the war and executed for war crimes he comitted there. Show me one document that attest Celan s parents were arrested by Romanian army, or police and sent to death. It may be possible but I don`t think u have any information. U also stated in your article that a SS commando the Romanian mayor arrested Celan s parents, who told u this? I think if u are not Ukrainian or Russian, u have no anti Romanian bias u would better study Second World History and improve your information. Wikipedia is not a mean of anti Romanian propaganda but an encyclopedia for the general public and u shouldn t use its power to spread lies. Paul Celan came to seek refuge in Romania because here Jews had a special status. For your quite scarce and shattered information there were no Jews deported from Romania to the Polish concentration camp as many Jews were taken there from Germany, Hungary, even from the occupied France. I have typed this text at 3 am in the morning and I am not interested in having an argument with an arrogant guy like u. The typing errors I haven t had enough time to proofread but I will do it perhaps some other time. I bet u have no proof Celan hated Romania, he was quite a good friend of the french romanian philosopher Emil Cioran, he translated many poems from and to Romanian, he welcomed many Romanian writers who travelled to Paris. I think u haven t read even professor Andrei Hoisie- Corbea`s books on the Romanian heritage and roots of Paul Celan. And please sign your messages, if u are a phantom I won t have any connection with u. Mayuma211.16.104.143 19:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

For your relief I have deleted the passage on Antisemitism, it is enogh for me if these explanations will remain here on the talk page. If u don t want to erase them from here as well. Mayuma211.16.104.143 19:18, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

As soon as I have time, I will make some much needed changes to this page. I think the debate has been undermined by incendiary remarks. If you think that Celan's visiting of Heidegger deserves its own page and you can fill it, go for it. --vkxmai 00:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Romanian antisemitism

As a survivor of deportation to Transnistria and someone who had known Paul Antschel personally, I want to point out that the assertions about Romanian non-involvement are absolutely false. 1. The Romanian army together with the SS Einsatzkommando massacred a few hundred people, among them the Chief Rabbi Mark, when they entered Czernowitz in July 1941. 2. The Romanian gendarmes (not Germans) rounded up Jews brutally in October 1941 and confined us to a ghetto, from where the majority were deported to Romanian-run camps in Transnistria. I was present when a Romanina gendarme hit my mother with a rifle-butt. 3. The brutal inhuman behavior of the Romanian troops towards the Jews en route to Transnistria is well documented. 4. I need to remind the writers of the Yassy (Iasi) train -- also run by the Romanian army. 5. I and my family were deported to Transnistria in June 1942 (one week after Celan's parents). I could write a whole book about the inhumane treatment by the Romanian Gendarmes. One item: the patients of the Jewish mental hospital, who were in the camp with us, were all shot by Romanian gendarmes. Celan's parents had the misfortune to be taken across the river Bug to work for the Germans, where they were exterminated. Finally, even before Antonescu, in the 1930-s, we Jews were exposed to varipous antisemitic actions (revision of citizenship, revision of the right of doctors with foreign diplomas (read Jewish doctors) to practice medicine, frequent assaults on Jewish students (particularly at the Law Faculties) etc. I remember making a big detour around the headquarters of the Goga-Cuza party for fear of being beaten up on the way home from school.

• Thanks for your poignant testimony. The interested reader may also consult Antonescu and the Holocaust| as well as this site. Stammer 13:33, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

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introduction

I deleted the following sentence: "Others have speculated that when Celan changed his name from Antschel, he cast out the following letters: H for Hitler and ST for Stalin)" It's really total speculation, and doesn't belong into an intro paragraph, I think. Johannes Wich-Schwarz 04:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, that seems like a bizarre claim and I think the source given fails WP:RS, so I've removed it. "Celan" is simply a reversal of the two syllables in the Romanian spelling ("Ancel") of his German name ("Antschel"). Both versions sound something like "An-chel" in English. He removed the T, the S and the H because they aren't needed in Romanian. --Folantin 21:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

France?

I am a great fan both of Celan and of France, but honestly I can't see why Celan should belong to the France Wikiproject. Celan is not a French poet. Beside this quibble, I think the section about Todesfuge could be expanded. It is arguably the greatest poem of the 20th century and it offers the opportunity to illustrate the main threads of Celan's poetry, from the deep influence of Hölderlin, to the tragic and poetically frutiful conflict between Celan's Jewish and German cultural identities ("dein goldenes Haar Margarethe/ dein aschenes Haar Sulamith"). I may start adding some lines about the ominous "Meister aus Deutschland", who has been identified with Heidegger by some authors. A deep admiration for Hölderlin was a common trait of Celan and Heidegger. Stammer 16:25, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the template which was indiscriminately added by a poorly-designed bot. Please go ahead and expand the section on "Todesfuge" (maybe even make it into a separate article?). Remember to source your info though. Best. --Folantin 17:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Dont vorry, Stammer good boy. He source. Stammer 17:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I apolichise for teaching mein Grandmutter to suck Eier ;) All ze best. --Folantin 17:27, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Michael Hamburger

I am not personally a German speaker. I wondered though, if it would be appropriate to add that Hamburger is the paradigm Celan translator? A professor of mine, in fact, the head my College's language department and daughter of one of the foremost American Heidegger scholars/translators (and(forgive all these parenthetical/subordinate clauses) actually the coordinator of the historic dinner at which Heidegger and Hannah Arrendt were reacquainted (J. Glenn Gray is the father's name - his daughter was in attendence at the dinner also, not that it matters here)); she tells me Hamburger is the Lattimore of German - that is, the Lattimore, the ancient Greek translator as opposed to the vulgar Mr. Fagles (ugh) who rewrites Homer, or the Jowett (eh(?)) who idiomizes, or the Longfellow (hehehmm) who forced Homer into rhyming couplets, or the Thomas Hobbes (who translated the Peloponesian Wars of Thucydides in his spare time, who, a man of his times, rendered fabulously the Greek for Libya as Africa, Libyans as Africans) who, to be frank, just makes a lot of mistakes. Not the most verifiable source, but, well, I've no reason to fib and I'm sure of her judgment. As a personal friend of David Farell Krell (save the fact that the man is an ass, I add), she did an uncredited proofread of the Red Bible (the Basic Writings of Martin Heidegger) and Krell's request, and knows German very very well. So, that's all I guess. Hamburger.

• I'm afraid that, although what you say is interesting, it's not relevant to the needs of Wikipedia. It is not up to this site to decide who the "paradigm" Celan translator is. By "paradigm" I assume you mean, more or less, "best". Hamburger is a wonderful translator but even if there were a lively debate about who's the best 20th century translator of Celan, and there isn't one that I am aware of (because there are no warring camps on the issue), Wikipedia's role is to report on such a controversy, not to take a side in it. Lexo (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Force of Light by Dan Kaufman

Hello - I just wanted to mention that Dan Kaufman of the eclectic experimental music ensemble called Barbez has recently released a recording called "Force of Light" (on John Zorn's Tzadik label) that is an interpretation through music of Celan's life and poetry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.85.181.40 (talk) 14:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Todtnauberg

The section on Todtnauberg seems poorly written and irrelevant in general. I love Heidegger and I think a line or two about Celan's relationship to him is appropriate, but cutting a paragraph from your undergrad paper on a poem which is not even central to Celan's work as a whole is just weird. If no one objects and no one is willing to rewrite this mess, I recommend cutting the section out for now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.188.101.111 (talk) 05:51, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the Heidegger section has an inordinate weight in the otherwise terse article. That they met may be relevant, but the way it is written leaves a feeling of "so what". Why is this poem quoted in full? It's not his most important or representative poem.--88.73.6.122 (talk) 09:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Intro

The intro of this article is a mess. Referring to Antschel as "the Romanian Jew Paul Antschel" is a stylistic turn that leaves an exceptionally nasty taste in this reader's mouth. Celan's Jewishness was very important to him, but in the intro to an article about, say, André Gide, we don't refer to him as "the Protestant André Gide" (or even "the homosexual André Gide", which would be more to the point about Gide's identity.) His identity as an author should come first. I will recast it according to best practice on WP. Lexo (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Bio Bio Gap

I have sources which suggest that the Gruppe 47 reading helped launch Celan, whereas the current article gives the opposite impression. In any case, there's a huge gap between 1955 and his death in 1970, omitting among other things his worldwide fame as a poet in those years. It's very inadequate.KD Tries Again (talk) 15:27, 1 September 2010 (UTC)KD Tries Again

I found sources as well that suggest that the 1952 Gruppe 47 reading helped bring recognition to Celan's poetry. I added a couple of references and some language to this section to reflect these. I couldn't find anything that said he didn't return to Gruppe 47 because a prize was given to someone else. This seems pretty subjective to me. --MLKLewis (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Nelly Sachs

It appears to me that the section that says that Paul Celan and his wife Gisèle de Lestrange corresponded for 18 years is incorrect. There is no reference provided for this statement. In looking around I found that Celan and Nelly Sachs corresponded in the vein of two fellow poets sharing from their similar holocaust and poetic experiences. We should look at rewriting this section.--MLKLewis (talk) 21:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

What are ....

"earlier socialist engagements" - was Celan engaged to be married to a plurality of socialist females at some time? BECAUSE OTHERWISE "engagement" is an absolutely bullshit word - is it the usual mistranslation of German "Engagement" (=commitment), or do you means "contacts", or maybe "flirtations" - if so, then say it! "engagements" is neither one or the other, it means (here) nothing. Maelli (talk) 13:03, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Paul Celan/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Hello - I just wanted to mention that Dan Kaufman of the eclectic experiemental music ensemble called Barbez has recently released a recording called "Force of Light" (on John Zorn's Tzadik label) that is an interpretation through music of Celan's life and poetry.

Last edited at 14:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 02:25, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

One might think a rearranged Antschel would be pronounced Tschelan, corresponding to the Romanian (rather than German) pronunciation of Celan. de:Paul_Celan#Aussprache_des_Namens however confirms German: [ˈtseːlaːn], while noting that in Paris the accent seemed to have moved to the second syllable. The Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (/ˈsɛlæn/ however seems dubious once one peruses academic conferences on Youtube: the translator Pierre Joris and a multitude of other US scholars all use tseːlaːn; here one hears ˈtseːlaːn from Amir Eshel and tseː'laːn from Ulrich Baer. Sparafucil (talk) 23:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Birth year: 1920 or 1928?

The photo of his Nachmittag... poem on a Leiden wall gives his birth year as 1928. On the other hand, that same image misspells the poem title, which makes me wonder how careful the artist was. Assuming he really was born in 1920, should we call out the wrong date in the photo caption? Peter Chastain ^[¡hablá!] 01:16, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Update needed

The Film section needs to be updated to include Wim Wenders' Anselm (2023). Paul Celan is very much present in this documentary, including through the reciting of poems. EAJ Dreessen (talk) 02:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Deportations to Siberia

'Following the Soviet occupation of Bukovina in June 1940, deportations to Siberia started.'

I am sure some political opponents of the Soviets were sentenced to forced labour, but is this relevant for Celan's life? Was he or any of his relatives and friends deported, did he allude to it in his poetry? Otherwise it seems like an unnecessary mention - unlike the Nazi persecution, which obviously did affect him.

'Upon the emergence of the communist regime in Romania, Celan fled Romania for Vienna, Austria. '

Was anyone pursuing him, persecuting him or trying to stop him from emigrating? Otherwise, the word 'emigrated' would seem more appropriate than 'fled'. 62.73.72.3 (talk) 05:21, 27 November 2024 (UTC)