Talk:Shipwreck Kelly (American football)

Requested move 29 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Shipwreck Kelly (American football). It is clear that there was a consensus to move, and this alternative proposal appears to have attracted the most support. Number 57 15:51, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Shipwreck Kelly → John "Shipwreck" Kelly – There is Alvin "Shipwreck" Kelly. The proposed title has been commonly used since the subject's death. Although quote marks are normally discouraged per WP:TITLEFORMAT and WP:NCP, WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NATURAL encourage a commonly used title that is less ambiguous but more natural. The current title should be of a disambiguation page. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 09:50, 8 January 2015 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

• Move to John Simms Kelly or Shipwreck Kelly (American football). The nominator's suggestion is contrary to the WP:NICKNAME advice to "avoid ... adding a nickname ... in quotes between first and last name. For example: Bill Clinton, not William "Bill" Clinton." —BarrelProof (talk) 02:17, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@BarrelProof: Per WP:TITLEFORMAT, there are exceptions if quotation marks are part of the name. Check the Google Books; they tell you. --George Ho (talk) 07:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Nicknames were so very common on football players in the older eras that it's often how they are best known, e. g. Germany Schulz, Red Bethea, Baby Ray. It's almost a part of the research once one has a name as is the birth date. Kelly was no exception. Shipwreck Kelly (American football) therefore makes most sense to me, with a disamb page to both John and Alvin. Cake (talk) 08:01, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I oppose the parenthetical disambiguation, Mistercake. If you are opposed to the quoted nickname, what about John Simms Kelly as someone else suggested? --George Ho (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

That works too. Why the opposition, may I ask? Cake (talk) 06:29, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:NATURAL, natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical one if the more precise alternative name is commonly used and neither obscure nor made-up. Also, parenthetical disambiguation requires memorization of a related term and holding a shift key before typing a letter to create a special character. Id est, hold "Shift" and type "9" to create a "(". Have you noticed my using shift key to create special characters, like a question mark (?) here? --George Ho (talk) 09:09, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes of course as for the shift key. It certainly seems he is referred to more by Shipwreck or John "Shipwreck" than his full name (I figure for the reasons listed above), however I grant the full name is probably the easiest solution for ambiguity purposes and is listed enough to work. Cake (talk) 04:45, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, quote mark (") requires a shift key, too. --George Ho (talk) 06:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

That's true. John Simms Kelly seems fine. It would be nice to have a disambiguation page or redirect for Shipwreck due to the prevalence at which college football players were referred to by nickname. Cake (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

• Move to John Simms Kelly or Shipwreck Kelly (American football) per BarrelProof. Coretheapple (talk) 15:14, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support - We definitely need to move from the current title... looking at n grams, neither Alvin nor John would qualify as a primary topic for the title Shipwreck Kelly (in fact, I would say Alvin comes closer to being one than John). While using the full name would resolve the need for disambiguation... COMMONNAME overwhelmingly favors including the nickname. To best achieve Recognizability and Naturalness, I think we need to include the nickname "Shipwreck" in the title. So... I think this is a valid exception to the "avoid quotation marks in titles" provision. Blueboar (talk) 13:00, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support - per Blueboar and the original nomination, I think this is a valid case for using the nickname in quotes, and serves our readers better than either "John Simms Kelly" or "Shipwreck Kelly (American football)" . Invoking WP:IAR, I support the move.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
• Support Shipwreck Kelly (American football) per BarrelProof. "John Simms Kelly" is not a very good choice per WP:MIDDLES. --BDD (talk) 15:35, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:MIDDLES doesn't mention using quote marks; WP:NICKNAME does. George Ho (talk) 19:17, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

No, I'm saying John Simms Kelly is a bad choice because of MIDDLES; unless he were commonly known by his full name, "Adding middle names or their abbreviations merely for disambiguation purposes... is not advised." --BDD (talk) 20:09, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

What's wrong with quoted nickname, BDD? Many sources use the original proposed title. --George Ho (talk) 06:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support Shipwreck Kelly (American football) - the New York Times headline for his obituary alone is enough to support COMMONNAME. He is also referred to only as Shipwreck Kelly in The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia. Wikimandia (talk) 13:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: 'John Kelly' is also used. --George Ho (talk) 15:43, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

It's kind of hard to read that - it could be talking about another John Kelly, as it's a hugely common name. Additionally, there is already John Kelly (American football). Specifically he was referred to only as Shipwreck Kelly, not John "Shipwreck" Kelly etc. Wikimandia (talk) 16:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: It has "1933" beside 'John Kelly' in small print. The other guy was born in 1944, albeit uncited. --George Ho (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

So he's referred to multiple times in the book as Shipwreck Kelly and one time as John Kelly? Obviously the editors didn't know it was the same guy. Besides, nobody is suggesting his name be changed to John Kelly, so what is your point? Wikimandia (talk) 16:37, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

@Wikimandia: Why choosing parenthetical disambiguation over natural disambiguation? Many similar sources use 'John' and 'Shipwreck'. --George Ho (talk) 16:40, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 28 October 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. It appears nothing has changed since the last RM. Jenks24 (talk) 08:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

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Shipwreck Kelly (American football) → John "Shipwreck" Kelly – I proposed the name when Alvin "Shipwreck" Kelly was newly created, but parenthetical disambiguation was chosen instead because certain editors weren't in favor of the name with quotation marks. Guideline WP:NICKNAME normally discourages quotation marks in the name. However, policy WP:GUIDES says that common sense may be used to make exceptions, and WP:POLICIES says that we must normally follow whatever is classified "policy" rather than "guideline". (Let's not invoke WP:IAR, shall we?) WP:TITLEFORMAT allows quote marks if they are part of a name or title. Natural disambiguation is normally encouraged as long as the name is neither made-up nor obscure. The proposed name is preferred to parenthetical disambiguation and recognizable. Sources are provided in this discussion, so see further. George Ho (talk) 08:47, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Just sources from 2010s:

Books: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

Other sources: [12][13][14] (the rest on Google News consists of Alvin the pole sitter)

George Ho (talk) 09:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose – we just had this same conversation quite recently. As I said then, the nominator's suggestion is contrary to the WP:NICKNAME advice to "avoid ... adding a nickname ... in quotes between first and last name." I don't see anything wrong with the current title, and it's annoying to have to repeat this discussion. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - we just moved it to "Shipwreck Kelly (American football)" which is the best name IMO. —Мандичка^YO 😜 05:23, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.